Joanna Page: I was breastfeeding on set! How to have a career and children

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that wants you to live your life on your own terms. Today, I'm chatting to Joanna Page. I think because me and James got married so young, I was about 25. I don't want to have kids. I've never particularly liked kids. And when I was 35, I genuinely did suddenly wake up one morning and just feel this just yearning and go, oh my God, I have to have a baby. And even though I desperately wanted to have a baby, when I found out I was pregnant, I felt really quite distasteful about the whole thing. I remember early on walking into like mamas and pappas and looking around and just being like, fuck this for a laugh.

0:41No, thank you. How are you all lovelies? I hope you're good and well. If you're not, hopefully this really joyful chat you're about to hear will perk you up. I'm good. I like this time of year. I like getting all organised and getting my shit together. It's been very not together because I've been having my kitchen redecorated recently. and the thing I've realised is that sinks are really important. Not having a sink for the last month has been an absolute fucking nightmare, quite frankly. Every time you go to fill up the kettle, oh, there's no tap. Go to wash your hands, there's no tap. Go to wash up.

1:18I'm washing up in the bath. I've been washing up in the bath. I borrowed a crate from a supermarket to put my dirty plates in. I'm telling you too much. You don't need to know this. But anyway, it's a palaver. So when I get that sync back in action, I am going to be so organised, so on it, so ready for life. So that's what's been going on in my life. Hopefully more exciting things have been happening for you. As I said, this chat will really give you a spring in your step. Joanna Page, or Jo, as she insisted I call her, is just an absolute gem. You'll of course know her from Gavin and Stacey and massive films like Love Actually.

1:54and now she's charted her life from growing up in a small village in Swansea to some of the biggest TV and film sets in her hilarious memoir which is called, perfect name, Lush, best Welsh word ever. This chat was a whirlwind. I loved it. Oh my god we did not come up for air. It's boom boom boom next subject next story go. We talked about not getting broody until your mid-30s which was the case for Jo. The reality of pregnancy and motherhood. I know many of you listening to this are juggling motherhood and life. So you'll get a lot out of that. And just the chaos of raising kids, trying to get back to work after you've had kids, having sort of average days at work rather than amazing days.

2:36We talked about doing sex scenes back in the day, which was a very different situation to the one today. And some really good stories about Johnny Depp and Dame Maggie Smith.

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5:00Right, here it is. This is the show.

5:24Jo, I'm so happy you're on the podcast. You've given me full permission to call you Jo, not Joanna. Oh, God, yes, Jo. Joanna is too formal. I'm only ever called Joanna when my mother calls it to me and when I'm in trouble. So it's just Jo. I can't believe I haven't met you before. It seems absurd. Yes, I've never met you. I've looked at you from afar. Same. Yeah, because we had children round about the same time. We did. And I used to look and see how gorgeous you looked in like maternity wear. And you always had a really nice handbag. And I was just feeling really shit in the house and being sick and going, oh, my God, that's what I could look like.

5:55No, I felt like shit too. I just had a nice handbag. Yeah. But we had kids within weeks of each other. I know. That is insane, isn't it? Oh, my God. So is yours. Is he an Aquarius? Yeah. Wait, no, he's a Pisces. Oh, wow. He's a Pisces. So, yeah. So Eva's just gone, yeah, just over then. Yeah, because my dad's a Pisces. And so it was like, oh, my God, is she going to be Pisces or Aquarius? Yeah, and so she's Aquarius. Yeah, my son's a little bit after yours. So we've got three teens. Yes, 12, maybe 13. Interesting age. Oh, yes, and you've got boy, I've got girl. Yeah, I'm not sure what's worse.

6:26I don't know, because I always used to, I was looking at my kids the other day, because I've got two girls and two boys. And I did think girls are a lot harder to look after, because my little three-year-old, she's coming up and she's kind of the same as Eva. And it's wonderful qualities, you know, going out into the outside world, but not so wonderful when you're having to parent them and look after them. Strident, forceful, stubborn, strong, you know, wanting to be the boss, being really good leaders, not taking no for an answer, sulking, stropping, lots of drama, which is like really good for you.

6:59Like, oh, God, you're going to be a really strong woman, you know, when you grow up. It's fantastic. But at the moment, please, can you just put your, you know, socks and shoes on because I'm literally having a breakdown. That's just so brilliant. And so I thought, yeah, girls are a lot harder. But going into the teenage wise, I think boys might be because I think my boys are quite sensitive. Whereas Eva is 12. And I mean, nobody messes with her. No boys mess with her. She's solid. It's such an interesting thing, isn't it? You know, women of our generation, we want to bring up these strong women who know their boundaries and know what they want to say to people.

7:33Yet, like you've just expressed, parenting them is a challenge. And they're clever. They're so clever. And very emotional and quite manipulative as well. and they don't let things go. Never. If there's been an argument, it's held for a long time. Months. And then, yeah, and then revenge always happens. Like, say she's argued with Kit, who's just underneath her at 10. She'll bide her time, and I'll make sure that I talk, you know, with a pair of them. We get each side, and we apologise to each other, although I've now stopped doing that because I read somewhere that you're not supposed to force an apology.

8:07You're supposed to say, let's go and find out if the other person is all right, and let's see if we can ask them, is there anything we can do to make them better? Now, that's what I'm going with at the moment and the response normally is, no, I don't want to ask them. I don't care. I don't care if he's crying. But that's what we're trying to go for at the moment. But then she'll bide her time. She'll wait and then an hour will go by and then he'll get kicked in the back or something. Yeah, yeah, just a kick in the back always does the job. There was a really, really bad argument. Oh my God, and it wasn't even that long ago.

8:35And it was the first time I've actually seen them really go for each other. and I can't remember what the, I think it started as something as simple as a noise. Like he'd just been going, here, here, here. Love it when they do that. Over and over and over. Yeah. And she'd sort of taken offense and gone, will you just stop doing that? And then he'd headed upstairs to go into her room to sort of mess with it. And she knew he was doing that. So she was straight up the stairs. She caught him in there. He was terrified. He ran out. She ran after him. It all started. And I had to separate them. And I got really sad because she looked at him.

9:08They've always been so sweet together. And she went, you are a piece of shit. And I was like, oh my God. For starters, where she heard it from, me. And then secondly, like, oh my God. But you used to cuddle each other. And she was like, you are a piece of shit. And I just thought, oh my God, it's so awful. Oh God. That's so great. I know. Because like you've just said, anything my kids say that I think, oh, why are they saying that? Because they've heard me saying it. Yes, yes. And Beau has started going, oh my God, oh my God. And you have to just like filter. It's so difficult sometimes, isn't it?

9:47Because I've got to have a filter over me most of the time. And you're trying to work and it's so stressful and everything is going on and then you've still just got to keep a filter on you. It's impossible. Like you've just said, you know, we're always reading about these new methods of parenting and things we can try. Like you've just said there, you take one kid and you say, shall we go and talk to them? and we know that this stuff is probably for the best. Yeah. Yet in the moment where you just want them to put the shoes on or you just need them to eat their dinner or sit down, whatever it is, you just feel like going, just fucking do it.

10:17Yes. And you can't. You have to hold it all in. You have to hold it and hold it and hold it. Sometimes you don't. Yeah, because sometimes you do hold it and you hold it for like ages, for about like, you know, you've been holding it for ages. Yeah. And then you can't hold it anymore and you just go, oh my God, will you just put them on? I had that recently. And then you just go, I'm a really shit mum because I've just exploded. Even though I've just held it for the last eight weeks, because I've exploded once, but that just does. Just shit over everything in the last 12 years. I was in this, when I was on a holiday in the summer, I was walking down a little staircase and my kids had been arguing, same as yours, about nothing.

10:49And they were sort of being grumpy with me. And I, again, had been holding it in. Holding it in, oh, I'm going to keep smiling and doing all the great parenting. And then this, I was walking through a very small doorway and I smashed my head. And I went, oh, fuck's sake. And then I just lost it. And like you say, you hate yourself. You feel like you're a piece of shit. like a terrible parent you just can't you cannot deal with your own emotions i'm as bad as you guys i've just now gone down to your level of childishness yes it's so hard isn't it parenting so hard it's so oh my god you're just so stressful isn't it because everything and you love them so much but everything is just like it's such a heightened thing isn't it so heightened yeah it's just oh my god it's and then trying to do that with work like when i first had eva I worked just after having, so this is like now 12 years ago.

11:34And, but I was still in the mindset of, I'm an actress. You don't say no to a job. A job comes in, you say yes to everything. And my birth with her was, you know, quite traumatic. I was sent a previa. I'd been hemorrhaging. I mean, it was just like, oh my God, it was just mad. And I was two weeks after giving birth to her and I had really low iron. I was absolutely exhausted. I was bleeding. I had cracked bleeding nipples. It was just like, I'm trying to feed her. It was, oh, it was so difficult. and my agent phoned and said, you've got to go into London now to this audition. It's going to be like the next Mad Men.

12:06It's, you know, this thing for ITV all about the NHS starting and stuff. And in my head, I just thought, oh my God, no, it's the last thing I want to do. I don't want to physically, I just can't get myself there anyway. And also my head's just not there anymore. I just, I don't want to do it. I just don't want to do it. But I'm still like, as an actress going, yes, okay. Yes, I'll be there. And so, you know, so I went down there and I got down there to, you know, to start doing it and sat my mum in this hotel, just where I went to Spotlight, which was where the audition was and everything. And I was feeding Eva on demand, breastfeeding.

12:35And I didn't have a dummy. I hadn't expressed any milk. I didn't have a bottle. And she was just sleeping. So I just handed her to my mum. I just said, just look after her while I go and do this meeting. And mum was just sitting there, just frozen, going, oh my God, if this baby wakes up, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I've got no milk for her. I've got no nothing. And then I went in and just did this audition. And it's just weird because all I did was just go in there and talk about my placenta and talk about my birth and just like and because I didn't give a shit I was just like yeah I had a double placenta it's this big and the sack was ripping and whatever I got the job straight away and then by the time we got home I walked into the house and then they phoned and my agent went yeah you've got the job and then also they just offered you the part of Queen Elizabeth in the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who so I was like oh yes okay right I've just I've got to do that then as well and so then I'm off straight away filming with this little baby with me and it's mad because you know as a woman you're there and you're trying to deal with like the biggest thing that's ever happened in your life and physically and mentally and all of that and then you're still like boom straight into this like working environment which you've been in for like years and years which doesn't cater to having a baby with you god no you're trying to struggle and you know with all of that and oh my god it's just so difficult it's so so bonkers again like you say when you're programmed to always say yes and yes i won't turn down this opportunity that you push yourself that much I mean I did exactly the same and it is absolutely wild I mean you did make a decision a bit further down the line to say actually do you know what enough's enough I don't want to work for a bit that must have been a big scary gear change well it wasn't it was just a complete and utter relief I'd done Doctor Who right and I was breastfeeding and I was in this corset and they were gorgeous right they were really lovely and they couldn't have been nicer but I was adamant that the baby was going to be with me on set and this is what I'm doing but you know oh my god I would we'd be in a hotel in Cardiff I'd be cluster feeding all the way through the night she'd finally finish at about four in the morning and then at five in the morning I'd have to get up go on set have my red wig put on be shoved into this huge big corset with these boobs which has got bigger and bigger and bigger as the day went on I couldn't remember any of my lines because my head was all over the place lunchtime would come and I go into my trailer I'd feed for half an hour express for like 25 minutes have one mouthful of food and then go back on set and then after you feed you just want to catch them I just I was just like but I just want to be with her and everybody would say well she's not even going to remember you know it doesn't matter and but you're like but I will remember and this is my experience as well and then you're on set and you can't remember your lines you're playing Queen Elizabeth with a Welsh accent I know I was and I was just like you know and they were all gorgeous but I've got like Billy Piper there's Jenna Coleman David Tennant John Hurt and you're there and you're doing Queen Elizabeth with a Welsh accent and you can't remember your lines.

15:18It's really embarrassing. And so I got through that, but we tried to make it work and it was just awful. And then I got to doing Breathless then, this thing for ITV. And, oh my God, I was starting to shift in my head. I was starting to just be a bit more like, you know, I just want to think about me. I just, I don't know, I was starting to harden and just go, it doesn't mean as much. It doesn't mean this whole acting world, which has been my everything. It's been everything. And it just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. And then we got to doing Breathless and I was just, you know, we'd be in the middle of filming a scene.

15:49And I'd be like, oh, my God, I can hear my baby because mum would sort of be coming to set and even be crying. And I'd just stop a scene in the middle of filming and go, I'm sorry, I've got to stop. My baby's coming. I've got to feed her. And then I'd take myself off for about half an hour and leave everybody waiting for me. They were really sweet about it. But when you're filming, everyone's a bit like, you know, when are you going to be finished and stuff? And I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know when I'm going to be finished. But by the time I got to the end of that, I was like, I'm done.

16:14I'm absolutely done. I don't care what anybody says. I don't care if I'm getting asked to do auditions. I don't care if it's, you know, bad or whatever. I don't care if I'm going to completely ruin my career because I'm just stepping away from it when it's doing really well at the moment. I'm quite prepared to do that. And what will be will be. And then I took myself off for about seven years. I think that's amazing because there's, you know, even when I sort of decided to not really do TV anymore and I was like, it's just not working for me. there was a huge part of me, largely ego based, that was like, that forms a lot of my identity.

16:47That is how I identify as I am a TV presenter. What the hell am I meant to think about myself without that there? And I don't think I valued myself in other ways as much, you know, being a friend, being a mother, you know, just being a human being. All of my self-worth was wrapped up in achievement and what I was seen to be doing. Did you have any of that going on? No, I didn't. I never thought and I did have to put up with then when I came back to work, people saying to me, oh, God, you know, do you feel bad that you never became as successful as Martin Freeman? And Martin's absolutely gorgeous, you know, but as a woman and taking time off and you know that then you're going back into the profession, it's just not going to be as easy as it was before.

17:28It's really hard. You're not getting the meetings as much or you're not getting the jobs as much. And you've got to basically go, right, OK, I'm going to start from scratch again. but I never felt you know worried like that was my whole identity because I think I just got so wrapped up in Eva and being a mother and still now like being a mother is sort of my whole identity and I know when they grow up and they go to whatever they want to go off and do I know I'll be cool because I'll be so bloody exhausted by then and I'll be pushing 60 when I think Bo gets to about like you know 13 and teenage years so I think I'll be more than ready to go okay now I am just going to be me.

18:03But I think I just sort of just went boof and just, you know, converted myself over to, no, my entire identity is mother. And I don't care. I don't care about acting or anything anymore. I mean, it was so interesting reading your whole life story in your book, but that broodiness, that desire to be a mum didn't kick in until you were in your mid-30s. It wasn't like from day dot, because I think I was broody from about 18. I was like desperate to have a baby. But you were kind of settled on, I probably won't have kids. Now you've got four. Yes, I know. It's just that. I think because when I grew up, I was an only child.

18:36So I wasn't really used to being, I mean, I had my cousins and stuff, but in my house, there weren't like lots of babies or I didn't have siblings. And I was really quite happy just being me. I loved my own company and I wasn't like, oh my God, I want to have loads and loads of friends or anything. And then mum with all of her problems with like miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. And, you know, there was always that sort of going on. So that was always kind of in my head, but it didn't ever frighten me. into going, oh God, I'm a bit too scared to have children. But I just never felt maternal because we'd never really go to a cafe and sit there and go, because like me now, if I see kids and they're screaming or they're crying or babies, I'm always like, oh my God, they're just gorgeous.

19:12They're so lovely. But we'd go to a cafe and it would just be like, oh God, the noise or, you know, just, you know, it was just nothing maternal really about me at all. And I loved animals and I was just more concerned about, I just wanted to have my dog and I was happy with her and I think because me and James got married so young I was about 25 that having a baby and stuff straight away was just not in my world I was quite happy we were married we had our dog and we were like young actors and it's just like oh my god jobs are coming in life is fun I'm really young I don't want to have kids I've never particularly liked kids not in the least bit bothered and actually genuinely didn't feel maternal and mum would say oh you'll get to mid-20s or you get to 28 so you know and then it'll kick in and it just never ever did and so I was just quite happy and James said he never ever said to me can we have children we never really had a discussion about kids and he said he just thought that he knew a time would come when I'd go oh god I just want to have children and when I was 35 so I must have been like 34 35 I genuinely did suddenly wake up one morning and just feel this just yearning and go oh my god I have to have a baby.

20:20And it was this whole thing, like literally just overnight, just like, oh my God, I have to have a baby. And then luckily I fell pregnant straight away. And even though I desperately wanted to have a baby, when I found out I was pregnant, I felt really quite distasteful about the whole thing. I was just kind of like, God, I just, oh my God, it's just quite, I just feel really weird. This just feels odd. And it just feels really quite horrible. Even though I want it, I feel really quite oh I don't like this I don't like it at all and then at six weeks like morning sickness kicked in and that was horrific because it was like I had the flu I mean my arms and my shoulders and it was just like I was throbbing with the flu and just feeling sick all day but I remember early on walking into like mamas and pappas and looking around and just just literally just being like fuck this for a laugh I'm no thank you I'm walking out and just finding And all the way through, right, up until the day before I gave birth, I said to James, what if I don't love this as much as I love the dog?

21:17I remember feeling like that. How could I love this baby as much as my cats? Because I was so obsessed with my cats. Obviously you do, but you can't imagine it. You can't. I was like, I don't know how I can. What if I don't love this as much as I love Daisy? And he said, if you don't, it's absolutely fine. I'll just do everything. Just give me the baby. I'll just do everything. And then the next day when I gave birth, I was just like, oh, my God. I put her on my shoulder. I don't think anybody else held her for about a flipping year or something. I was just like, oh, my God. It's such an inexplicable, mad moment that you can't even look back and comprehend.

21:52That feeling is just so mad. But I think it's really good to hear about pregnancies and birth stories like that where you're not just like, oh, I'm pregnant. Look at me feeling all great, whatever. Morning sickness is shocking. I had it so bad. I was like Googling other women's stories to see how they sort of survived it. Because I felt so, so, it was debilitating sickness. And you just think no one else ever felt like this. How do I get through it? Not every pregnancy is like, oh my God, I'm just blossoming and looking gorgeous. No, it's not. And morning sickness isn't just like for some people, you throw up once in the morning.

22:28It's all day, every day, all night. It's all day, all through the night. And it's really awful. And then when you're then, you know, like other pregnancies, when you've got like two other little ones, and you're pregnant again then with your third one and no one gives a shit about you during the pregnancy. No one cares. Because everyone loved me during the first one. Second one, it was kind of like, oh, you okay? But you know, third one, nobody gave a shit at all. And I'm standing there trying to do breakfast and I've got the smaller ones. I've got no pelvic floor left anyway. And I am being sick into the kitchen sink whilst also wetting myself in front of everybody.

22:57I'm like, oh my God, this feels so, so bad. But also with the other pregnancies, I was always very pleased when I did get pregnant because I basically was just like a milk machine and I breastfed for a long, long time just because I loved doing it. And I think I did give my whole identity over, like, I am mum, I am just mum. I am boob. I am boob. So I always sort of like kept my weight and sort of like, because I'm always feeding and I'm always bloody ravenous and I was always feeding. And so when I then got to be pregnant again, it would be really good because on the last one with Beau, I think I found out, and I was about, my God, six weeks pregnant.

23:35And I went straight into as if I was like full blown, you know, four months pregnant, put the clothes on straight away and I could just go, oh yeah, you know, I'm pregnant. Because the amount of times that men, and it was always men, would come up to me and go, oh, when's it you? And I'd have to go, it's not in here, it's in the pram. And I don't know, it's like, oh my God, I remember the first time somebody ever said that to me and Eva was in the pram. Wow. And this man, he came up to me and he went, oh, when's it you? And I was like, it's in the pram. Oh, God, just don't say it. Don't say it.

24:06But yeah, so like, yeah, you know, pregnancies and everything, they're just like, and the first one is hard, but then when you get on to the other ones, and then you've still got the other ones to look after, and you're working at the same time. It's wild.

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26:17I mean, you've got four kids now. The youngest is four. Yeah, well, three. She's turning four in December. Okay, so she's nearly four and then the eldest is 12. Yes. You've got your book out. You've got a book tour about to start. How is the overwhelm? Oh, my God, right. It's hard. I mean, I've got to be honest. I'm looking forward to the book tour, right? Because then I was like, do you feel mum goes? Bye, everyone. Bye. Mummy's going and I'm going to have room service and a bed that I'm sleeping in on my own. Yes, heaven. Heaven. And because I've never, I don't really leave them for like, you know, a long time.

26:50like Gavin and Stacey, the finale one, I went down to Cardiff and we were there for six weeks and it's the longest I'd ever left them. And I was popping back at weekends. And, you know, and then I thought that the breastfeeding would dry up then with Bo because I thought I'm not feeding her now through the week. I'll be back at the weekends and she'll probably, you know, like grow out of it and stuff. Oh my God, I go back at a weekend, walk through the door. And the first thing she'd say is, I want boob. Straight on that boob all the way through the weekend. Then I go back and then she'd have nothing through the week.

27:18And that's what it was like. And So she managed to keep it going all the way through. So I got back from Gavin and Stacey and she was back on that boob full time. But that is so fun for you because when you're on set, obviously there are demands there. People are saying, Jo, stand here, do this. Have you got the lines? Let's go again. It's nonstop. And then when you walk in the door, that could be the moment you go, I'm going to have a bath, whatever. But you're a mum. Yes. There's no transition. It's like you've gone from that to you are now a boob and a mum. Let's go. It's draining. It is just, it is so overwhelming.

27:48just like the noise and the demand and then because I mean I would say now that this is the first time that I've really gone back to work and been looking after the kids all like at the same time because I've just taken so much time off work and it's kind of like I don't know how you're supposed to do it and I'm always I've always been a perfectionist and I've always wanted to give everything a hundred percent and I'm always like no go go go go and I'm always going to do it and I've just sort of this year given myself permission to kind of just go fuck it yeah I'm going to slow down and I'm going to take things at my pace because I am always rushing to get it done at this time to do this as well to do that and I kind of thought you know what what happens if I just don't yeah if I just go no you're just gonna have to hold on for a minute with that deadline I'm just going to take it at my own time and then also I watched I listened to Mark Dolan doing an interview and he did this thing all about doing shit work and it's really stayed with me and that is what I have been doing, well, fingers crossed, right?

28:49This is not going to be classed as shit work. No, no, the book is great. I go into stuff thinking, just do shit work because I've got this whole thing about being perfect and about being the head girl and the golden girl and everything's always perfect and I do a good job. And Jesus Christ, it's like, give me a break. It's impossible. You know, just do shit work. Just go and do what you can do. And then I think to myself, because at the end of the day, when I am on my deathbed dying, I am not going to be going, oh I'm so pleased that I got that deadline in on time because it really makes a difference that I played that part at such and such.

29:19I'm not. I'm going to hopefully have my kids around me and go I love you all. Yeah and you're going to look back and you're going to remember the bits that were fun and spontaneous and like those big memories. I think about that all the time because I'm exactly the same. I sometimes feel like I'm just doing everything so badly. Parenting, working, socialising. Like I'm just failing at all of it because we're all trying to do too much and I certainly with work I've always been so, exactly what you've just said, I want to be on time, I want to do the best job, I want to have done the research, turn up, be on my A game.

29:50I want the little high afterwards of, yeah, that was fucking great, the interview went well. Some days are average, which used to be my worst nightmare. Like, oh my God, not an average day where things were just kind of okay. And now I'm like, do you know what? Give yourself a break. Have an average day where you sort of do an okay-ish job and your parenting is sort of all right at the end of the day and you're okay making the breakfast you made them was below average probably like who cares we're putting so much pressure on ourselves we are and it's so hard and I know it sounds ridiculous because I am on Instagram and I love having a good old look at everything and me too but in the end I just had to take all of like the parenting apps because when I was pregnant with Beau I was following all of this and that and for the food and for the whatever and in the end my god it was making me feel so bad that I just have to just go right I'm just gonna have to take everything off and when I was growing up it wasn't like this I go out on my bike I mean you know I'd be having microwave tuna pasta bakes which I still really really love and it's kind of like what's the worst that ever happened to me you know parenting back then was so great it was it was like go to school see you when I see you bye but as a woman it's like my god how are we expected to do it all and then also the way we are now most of the time we don't even live next to our family I don't because I had to move from Swansea.

31:05And so, you know, I was like thinking when we were packing to go on holiday and I've got the four of them running around going berserk. And if I just was still in Swansea, which I can't because that's not where, you know, my work is. I'd be like, right, all of you, I'm picking you up from school. You go into Nanny and Bampers. They're doing you tea and you're sleeping over tonight. And then I go home. Me and James would probably be able to have a drink, watch something on the telly, and I'd be able to pack leisurely. But we just can't do that because it's like on the go all the time. This nuclear family set up that is so normalized now puts so much pressure on, usually the woman, but so much pressure on that we're meant to be doing it all, keeping on top of it all, without that support of the grandmas, the aunties, the neighbors who, you know, we all used to chat to our neighbors.

31:45Nobody does that anymore. Yes, nobody does that. Unless you're lucky and you live in a quaint little village somewhere. But more than likely, everyone kind of lives their separate lives, certainly in big cities and towns. So there is all of this pressure. And then you lump work on top of it and the expectations. Oh my gosh, it's so hard. and also you know with a show like Gavin and Stacey where it's all eyes on you everyone's waiting for that moment at Christmas where they get to sit down as a family and watch it you've also got that added pressure of everyone having an opinion of you, your performance who you are as a person it's like even more long time it was terrifying kind of going back to the finale because we'd done the other special oh my god which was about in 2018 but then my god I'd had Bo in the period then before then we went back to the finale and I was really god I was quite scared when I went back because on the last one in 2018 I still I didn't look you know like when I was playing Stacey at 29 but I was still kind of like oh look there's Stacey how we all kind of know her and maybe other people don't think this but in your own mind you kind of do because you are with yourself all the time and I'm quite happy with myself but it was the first time I was kind of going back to playing Stacey but now as a mum of like a really little one so I'm and I'm still feeding I'm still that's where my head is I'm not remembering my lines as well as before.

32:56I'm still feeding. I'm bigger than I was before. And I don't mind that. I'm perfectly happy with where I am, but I do not look like what I looked like before. And suddenly you're there and it's so pressurized because there was such a huge expectation with it as well. So you're really, really scared anyway. And I just remember going into the read-through room and there were so many people in there and it was like, oh my God. And it was all so built up. And then I had the first lines and I just remember thinking, oh my God, like I'm breastfeeding. They've sucked me dry anyway. It's like they've literally sucked my whole soul out of me.

33:28What if I open my mouth and Stacey doesn't come out? I don't know. There's just like nothing's going to come out. And then I opened my mouth and she did come out. Thank Christ for that. But it was all absolutely fine. But all of this is going on and on and on in your head. And it's just, it's really, it's hard. I know. But also really good fun because, I mean, it was a laugh. So great. Even though I was away from the kids for six weeks, I do have to say I had a ball. I believe you did. I gave myself I think it was two weekends where I went I'm not coming home I'm giving myself a weekend and on that weekend oh my god what did you do what did you get up to I went well I didn't go anywhere I just stayed in the hotel room because I just love having just peace and quiet and I don't have to do anything don't have to speak to anybody I don't have to do anything and I can basically just sit and eat and watch the telly that's the best it's just amazing and because there was a period when it first began and I just bought um like an exercise bike and I was and I was quite into it and like oh my god this is really quite good it's giving me energy and then I was debating oh god shall I get it like shipped up to the well down across to the hotel in Cardiff and then they were like yeah yeah why didn't you do that and I thought my god I can't because I think I'm going to look like a right idiot and that's just a bit too much like you know Joe Page gets an exercise bike shipped to her hotel room even if nobody else knows that's going to sit with me and make me feel weird right so instead I went the other way and I was like I'm not leaving the hotel room I'm going to sit, I'm watching Saturday Night Tally, I'm ordering a huge steak, I'm having chips, I'm ordering loads and loads of side things, and I'm having just like a massive big bottle of red wine, and I'm just going to sit and eat and watch the telly.

34:54And I did that for a whole weekend, and it was gorgeous. Two weekends I kept to myself. Because yeah, because me and James, we don't do date nights, we don't do anything like that. So I kind of feel a bit of mum guilt, because you always do. But I have kind of sacrificed so much to them, which I love, and I don't mind. You know, we don't have date nights, we don't, you know whatever we end up you know going through and then end up becoming like strangers then having a huge bust up and just going oh this is ridiculous you don't talk to me and well you don't speak to me and blah blah blah and then a big bust up and then somebody will look after the kids and then we'll go and have a coffee together or like one morning and we'll have a drink or something and then we sort of get back together again and then we carry on like for the next few months until that happens and probably what would be even better is we just went let's just do a date night on a Thursday and that might just make it better yes it's so important but also to have a date with yourself like being in a hotel room and drinking red wine in front of a tv I can't think of anything I'd rather do and you know what the other day oh my god I've been doing lots of work but I've been fast and I've been good and so I'd finished early and then I didn't have anything to do the next morning because I got it all done and nobody was in the house the kids had gone and they were staying with my parents and James was away he'd gone up north and oh my god I was on my own in the house and it was kind of like I felt a bit like oh my god I just feel like I just want to just go and do something and I want to go fuck it I want to just go and you know do a parachute jump or do something wild and something mad you know when yeah you know when you've just had to like censor yourself for so long and you're suddenly on your own and you just feel like oh my god I want to roll in the mud and just get all like that right and in the end I didn't but I put music on in the kitchen.

36:35But it always has to be when I'm on my own, just something like either like real funk or, you know, like Snoop Dogg or just something just a bit dirty. And then I'll find myself like humping the kitchen table leg or something just to get yourself out of just being like mum all the time. You just want to be like, oh my God. Yeah, release like the inner dirt bag. It's so important. We have to, if we keep suppressing that inner dirt bag, it's bad news. It's hard, it is, it is. Put Snoop Dogg on and release the inner dirt bag. Like, it's so good. Do you know what? I knew enough about you from following you on Instagram and watching being a big, big fan of Gavin and Stacey.

37:10I mean, it's just, I'm so fond of it. It feels like such a part of, you know, we've all kind of grown up watching it throughout. Well, for me, it was sort of like, I guess, my 20s and just threaded through all of these different memories. But I didn't know so much about your earlier life. Yes, yeah. And you went from being an only child in Wales, cosy childhood, you know, sort of great relationship with your family and your relatives nearby, to Radha, which is a hardcore drama school, very famous drama school. Loads of alumni have gone on to do incredible things in the acting world. But it was really quite traumatic, I hadn't realised.

37:48Oh my God, it was awful. I was obsessed with Kenneth Branagh, and I'd read his autobiography, and I was like, I had this romantic view of what Radha would be like, and I was just like, oh my God, it's just going to be wonderful. The auditions had been amazing and, you know, everything had been great and I was so geared up and so ready for it. And it was just awful because it was all very much for the method and Stanislavski, but this is the only method you do for acting. We don't do anything else and if this doesn't work and if you can't do it, you're shit, you can't act, you're shit, you can't act.

38:20And it was just basically breaking us down, but they don't build you back up again. And it was such a shock anyway to kind of get to London. I was so naive and so innocent. I'd just turned 18. I'd never lived away from home before. I mean, the minute that I got to the halls of residence, I'm in some fellas, locked in some fellas' flipping room. I can't believe that story. I don't even know if it was his room because I never ever saw him again. So this is a random guy that just went, do you want to come into my room? Yeah, I went to the toilet and I was coming back and he said, oh, do you want to come and have a look at my holiday photos?

38:49And in my head, I thought, no, of course I don't. I don't know who you are. But I was like, oh, yes, of course, you know, thinking, well, I don't want to be rude. And I went back to his room and then went in. And he shut the door and he wouldn't let me out. And I just remember sitting and he said, sit on the bed. And I sat on the bed and then he started showing me these photos. And he was like, oh, I was buying drugs here and then I was doing this here. And I just remember thinking, oh, my God, what am I doing? This is just I want to get out. And he turned the radio on really, really loud. And then he said, and I tried to get out and he said, you can't get out now.

39:14Nobody can hear you. And eventually he let me out and I ran back to my room, to my parents. And it was just like I was so terrified and so naive and just so. But I was open to learning and I wanted to be there. and I mean it was it was brutal it was horrible they were really really awful and what's been nice is that I thought that that was just my experience but since then listening to what like Daisy May Cooper has said she was like a good load of years you know after me and my god her experience was kind of like the same as mine and then also listening to Phoebe Waller-Bridge when she talks about the same stuff and what they were like with her and it just makes me go my god it wasn't just me then it wasn't just you know just what happened to me that's basically what it was like that at that period in time yeah like is it better now do we think i don't know because i've never ever set foot back in there again but it's not it's a degree course now not just a diploma and i know that lots of the teachers just aren't there anymore but talking to my husband james he was at lambda and he said they never ever said to him oh you're shit or you can't do this or you could just fail and then you try something else and it was just like oh we all love acting let's just play let's just act let's have fun and he just remembers it as being like full of fun but RADA was brutal.

40:21I mean like you say they're knocking you down they're not picking you back up and then on top of that you've got auditions where again you know perhaps some of this is creating resilience but in a really harsh way. Yeah. But you're going to auditions and actually you say not only is it then sort of scary having that potential rejection but also you felt quite vulnerable in a lot of those situations. Oh God yes. I mean when you think back to it now it really is strange when you first come out because you know you're 21 you don't know anything and you know it's and it's you are you're just really really vulnerable and you go to auditions and most of the time you know you turn up to a hotel they'd say right go to this hotel just give your name and then you know somebody take you up to a room you go into a room in the hotel and then there's normally you know the cameraman and there's a producer and then there's you know a director it's all men in there and you just go in and you just kind of just kind of hope for the best really and hope it's going to be okay but the amount of times when I'd find myself going to the back of beyond you know to go to an audition or you'd you know be doing a play or something and then somebody would either make a pass at you or come in and try and talk to you and just loads of different uncomfortable situations oh my god filming sex scenes where getting through those is just difficult enough as it is but when I was younger you just had to get on with them you read the script and you don't really talk about it that much you just start filming and you would just make it up on the spot and I remember doing this one particular one and and I didn't even really feel awful about it afterwards because that's just the way that it was You didn't have intimacy coaches or anything.

41:44No, now that's a must, isn't it? You have an intimacy coordinator and that's all choreographed. And I mean, we just sort of, we read through the scene. We're supposed to be kissing. And then we start filming it. And then halfway through, I realised he was just trying to pull, you know, my top down and my clothes off. And I didn't even think to stop it. I just remember thinking, oh my God, the only way you can stop this is to put your arms in the air and hold on to the banisters. Because I was more concerned. I thought, I am not getting my boobs out on the telly. And that's what my concern was.

42:09and was wearing this tiny little negligee thing with these really heavy chicken fillets. And I thought, if that goes, the whole thing's just going to go boom and just fall down and that's going to be worse. And as I'm dealing with that, I suddenly realised he was humping me. And I thought, oh my God, now we're having sex. We're pretending to have sex. And then they shouted cut and I didn't even really think anything. I just thought, okay, right, okay. I've just got to basically just get through this and just kept filming and filming until we got to the end. And then that was it. We finished the scene and then we moved on to the next one.

42:34And it was just kind of like, well, that's just the way that it is. it's so it's so crazy because i think you know that era of tv of how the magazines worked you know i think a lot of us who are new in the game did feel like we couldn't say no to certain situations or this is just normal so therefore yeah and you kind of didn't even know how to say no because i remember being on this one telly job and you know this fella just sort of just bullying me all the way through and then this particular scene oh my god where he was so sexual well and just bullying me non-stop but I didn't quite know what it was and and so after finishing filming I went to speak to the producers and I said I don't I knew at that point oh my god I've got to say something about this because I'm quite you know I can handle myself or I'm quite mouthy and I don't mind you know giving it back and saying oh get your hands off or whatever and I was quite used to doing that but with this one I was just completely frozen and I remember going back to the producer and saying I don't I don't know how to describe this all I can think of is that I've been sexually bullied because I don't quite know what this actually is.

43:35I just didn't really have the words to describe what happened. It was just kind of, well, this is what it's like on some things. I think also, you know, again, probably our generation, I'm sort of hopeful that our younger generations aren't feeling this pressure as much, but there was that whole pressure to be the good girl and to abide to certain unwritten rules that meant you kept your mouth shut, that you cracked on with it, that you kept smiling. I mean, I'm sort of, I'm writing a book at the moment And I'm thinking about these subjects a lot. And I'm remembering lots of things I'd completely forgotten.

44:06And I remember being in the States once I was doing a TV show out there. It was actually a female director. But she obviously just did not like me. And she was so awful to me from start to finish, from just sort of completely ignoring me when I would speak to, you know, giving me ridiculous tasks on the day to do. I could tell she was fucking with me the whole time. And now, in my mid-40s, I would say, can we just have a chat about this because this is not working for me or can you just tell me what I'm not doing right for you but back then I would just smile nod carry on because I don't want to make a fuss like yeah I'll do that take a get for the 100 whatever it was she was getting me to do like I remember on one day she was like on the day of the live show she said an hour before we started like went live to however many million people watching in the States okay I want you to do the show in American accent are you serious?

44:57I'm from London I'm not I can't I can't do that like that's on the day and I was like you should I've been out here for months like I can't do that like that is insane like absolutely and I could tell it was just all too push me but back then I think so many of us certainly in the tv world but I know obviously extends to many women of our generation who were just like yep just smile nod do the thing get on with it we didn't want to rock the boat and I think it takes age experience and knowing yourself to not do it. Well, it does, doesn't it? But I was looking on the finale of Gavin and Stacey.

45:32There was one day I was in Pam and Mick's house and I was just looking around at like the crew and the girls. And there were like lots of, you know, young girls and like wardrobe assistants and everything. And I don't know, there was like a different feeling and there was like a real strength. And I was like specifically looking at the women and I was just going, oh my God, like you've got all of these young women around me and they just feel different to when I was, you know, starting. And I don't know if it's like the new generation coming up and they think about their mental health and their self-worth and giving themselves time and not being pushed into stuff.

46:04If they focus on that far more than we ever thought we ever could or we ever thought about doing. But there was a completely different sense. Now, I looked at these young women and there was a real sense of self-worth. Like they didn't look like they were, oh, God, I'm so pleased just to be here or, oh, God, I don't want to put a foot wrong because I might get fired. There was a real strength than a real, yes, I am here because I deserve to be here. You know, I am just as important as everybody else. And it was different to anything I'd ever really seen before. And I just thought, my God, you can sort of see them coming up.

46:31And it's a different feeling. You can. Whenever I'm chatting to someone of a much younger generation, their 20s, it does feel like there's a shift. I know that's quite a sweeping statement, but I completely agree with you. And I've been on set with, you know, female photographers, directors, and they're much younger. You do get the sense that they know their worth. And I think, again, for our generation, we were growing up in the 90s where the media was so toxic towards women especially that we all felt like, oh, I am lucky to be here. I better not say this thing bad. I mean, I was just so pleased, you know, to get a job.

47:02And, yeah, just so pleased to be there. Me too. I was like, I'm just like this small girl from Swansea. I can't believe I've managed to get here and get this job anyway. I don't want to mess it up, you know. Just keep your mouth shut, do a good job. And, you know, I'm just glad that I'm here. Yeah, I was the same. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

47:38Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

48:14Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than$60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to$1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today at greenlight.com slash protect. That's greenlight.com slash protect. I mean, you've obviously worked with some real female powerhouses over the years, and I love the stories you were telling about Maggie Smith.

48:57Oh, God, she was amazing. How amazing. And my favorite was that people were trying to rush her on set, and she called them clockwork cunts. It was amazing. She was so good. oh my god she was like she just had this strength this steely strength to her i want to use that phrase so bad when can i use it i know i know she told them she's yeah she told them she said fuck off you clockwork cunts and was just so but like but not even nasty in the way no just like no just stop don't rush me don't rush me and yeah oh my god she was amazing i thought she was wonderful i love that i also love the story about you farting in front of johnny depp I know I can believe that.

49:35I mean, oh, my God, because, yeah, because we'd been out the night before. I mean, oh, my God. I don't go for pretty boys. I never have. Right. And so obviously I knew he was a great actor, but I wasn't bothered about his films or him or didn't fancy him or anything. But then I'm in this film with him. And then I went on set and the director said, oh, we've got to introduce you to Johnny. And then he turned and he was in this dark black wig. It was like he was in his prime. And he started walking towards me. And oh, my God, I've just never seen anything, you know, like any creature ever. Just so beautiful.

50:08So symmetrical and beautiful. It was just like so weird. And he came towards me. He was really sweet and really lovely. And then we all went out for dinner and stuff. And I just remember they were keeping the seat next to me. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, OK. And then this person came in through the door. And everyone's all fussing and excited. I turned around and it was him. And I thought, oh, for God's sake. and then he came down and sat next to me and then tried to make conversation and I genuinely turned my back on him because I thought I cannot deal with that literally can't talk to you which is really weird but I can't talk to you you're too good looking yeah and I just remember thinking my god he's got hair like Jennifer Aniston it was just like this hazelnut colored hair with these beautiful blonde streaks at the front and eventually everybody left and it was just Leslie Sharp and me and him and like a security fella and then I had to talk to him and I just remember were wittering on about how they were placing a mole on which side of my face for the character and oh my god it's ridiculous and he said can we give you a lift back to the hotel so I was like yes okay fine and then when we got to the hotel I got out of the car and I'll never forget the moment because he was just so beautiful but he slowly slid his arms around my waist and then very slowly just kissed me on that side of my lips and then that side of my lips and then got in the car and then you know just went I was like oh my god oh my god ran upstairs phoned my mum straight away going oh my god Johnny Depp's just kissed me and then I went in the next morning and I got all done up I'd had a lobotomy as the character so I had a bald cap and I had lobotomy scars and I've got like these white contact lenses in and you know and so I'm in this in this cellar I'm squatting on the floor I'm acting I'm getting into it with him in the room it's just us and Heather Greener just said to me god I can't believe they've done that to you why have you let them do that to you and I was like because it's fun look I look awful and I'm squatting and acting and then suddenly I farted and it didn't it was a silent but deadly because it didn't make a noise but you knew I'd farted and he just went oh my god who's farted and I should have just gone me I'm acting like I've had a lobotomy sorry guys I'm getting into it I've just farted and I didn't I just kind of went oh I looked around kind of being like oh yeah who is it who's done that now god I was mortified and you can tell he knew it was me I was just like oh my god I've literally gone from being kissed on the lips to farting in front of him now it's so embarrassing it's so great I was laughing my head up it's even funny you saying it out loud it's too good I mean one of your um most beloved scenes and characters outside of Karen and Stacey is of course your character in Love Actually which you'd only seen once until recently I'd only seen it once oh my I couldn't go to the film premiere because I was filming this thing called Mine All Mine in Wales.

52:48So the premiere happened and then I finished filming on the seafront in Swansea and then me and James bombed it all the way up to London and we said right we're going to go to the party. So I got there, saw everybody, so I've never had to sit and watch the film in the cinema. And then it was the Cardiff Film Festival and they said oh Jo will you come and will you introduce it? So I was like yeah okay fine I don't mind doing that. So I'm in the cinema, I've got my parents sitting next to me and James sitting next to me and then the film starts, I'm in the front row and then it was only then that it sort of dawned on me like oh my god I'm sitting in a cinema next to my parents and my husband I'm in the front row everyone's looking at my boobs oh my god this is awful I can't bear it so I love the rest of the film I mean I was sobbing at Emma Thompson I was like jeez this is a brilliant film I love it but I thought I can do with not seeing that again I don't want to see myself I don't like seeing myself at the best of times so start bawling naked jumping up and down on Martin Freeman no thank you very much and so I haven't seen it for years and years and years and then it was last christmas it came on and i started watching it and and it was daytime so there wasn't any john and judy naked stuff but i started watching it was like oh my god it's so lovely it's such a lovely film and i mean oh my god it did i mean it genuinely did make me feel like there was love all around i was like oh my god this is so lovely but now my kids they're like oh mommy can we watch love actually can we watch love actually and i've openly said to them well we can't because mommy's naked in it yeah and i've explained what I'm doing and that I'm a stand in on a film set and whatever but I think this year I might go yes we will watch Love Actually we're gonna have to fast forward through a few of mummy's scenes where I'm in the nude but you will get to see me close in a nativity and at the end so that's good bingo oh it's so it's just such a joyful Christmas but it was just terrifying you know filming I can't imagine I mean Liam Neeson gave you advice before you did that scene yes he was really really lovely he took me aside and I mean everybody was so great and so understanding and before you do any of your naked stuff, there's such a huge build-up to it beforehand, you know.

54:44You've had all of the stuff stuck on you when everybody's talking to you, making sure that you're comfortable. So by the time you actually get on set and you're doing it, and also it's not in the least bit sexual. No. So, I mean, I'd run up and down Mumble Seafront, you know, streaking so many times before that I wasn't actually worried because I was naked and innocent. So I was, you know, that was fine by me. But he was so lovely and he took me aside and he said, look, I know that everyone's looking after you and, you know, it's all really good, but you do not let them do anything that you don't want to do.

55:12You don't let them push you. You stick with what you've agreed to. And he was really lovely. All I could think of was, oh, my God, you're absolutely gorgeous. So his advice sort of went over my head because I was like in his eyes, just going, oh, my God, he's just so beautiful. But he was, yeah, he was really sweet. But, yeah, because I originally auditioned for the part of Sarah. Yes. And when I first of all read the script, I remember thinking, God, I pity the poor sods who are going to be John and Judy. How the hell are they going to do that? and then went to Met for Sarah, wasn't right for it.

55:40And then they phoned and said, we really like her. We think she'd be perfect for Judy. And it was such a massive, like I said to my mum, oh my God, I don't know what to do. I don't know if I can imagine myself doing that. And mum was like, oh, for goodness sake, Joanna, just imagine your sunbathing topless on the beach. I was like, mum, but I haven't sunbathed topless before. And so it was quite a big, but then I knew that Martin was doing it and I knew he was great and I loved the office and I knew he was nice and it sounds ridiculous, but I did think he's been in the office so he's not going to be a pervert.

56:09No. Which I know is just a stupid thing but that was my thought. And then I just played Eve at the National and so I'd been completely naked for that. And so it was kind of like well you know actually being naked and being innocent actually is quite easy because you're not thinking about what you look like. You don't have to move a certain way. You don't have to be attractive. I've never ever thought of myself as being sexy. So having to be sexy on camera I always find so difficult. so when it came down to actually doing it you know it was fine because when you're there and you're doing it you're not even thinking about being in the nude you're thinking about what you're saying to John and you know it's fine I'm imagining when you got that role and also once you've you know done that filming scene you're not thinking that's going to live on forever it's one of those films that it will never go no it won't and it's really really strange right because yeah I kind of thought well it's going to go out and that's it but you know still even now I get you know like screenshots because I remember my agent saying don't worry we've got a watertight contract everything is like nobody's allowed to lift any images from the film so you're not going to see loads and loads of images of you naked and whatever but I mean that's in a contract but then you think about actually in real life somebody can watch the film and take a photo and that is what would happen so I would have photographs posted to me which had been laminated and then men would say, please, can you sign this for me?

57:29And I'd be like, straight in the bin. No, thank you. Sorry, they've got the cheek to laminate it. To laminate it, yes. The photo of it, laminated and then sent. But I've got quite a distance from it now as well. And also as well with the beginning of kind of of Gavin and Stacey, because I was so young then, because I don't like watching myself, but I can watch Gavin and Stacey and now I can look at stuff of like John and Judy and not feeling comfortable because I mean, it's like a different person. I look up myself and I'm like, now after being a mother and feeding and how your body physically changes anyway after you've given birth, I look back and go, Jesus, I was bloody tiny.

58:06I mean, I must have been about 26 or something. And it's like a whole other person. So it doesn't freak me out as much now. Yeah, that's lovely. You can just watch it at Christmas like everybody else and not feel completely traumatized. I know. My mum, I mean, it just does make me laugh that my parents go, it's not Christmas till we've watched. love actually like it's not Christmas till they've seen their daughter naked on the telly it's so great it's so brilliant before we wrap things up because I know you need to get on with this book tour and you've got children to look after my last question is where is your happy place oh god my happy place is in West Wittering in our caravan oh my god I love West Wittering god I absolutely love it gorgeous in 2009 we went down there and we borrowed a caravan and it's in a little field which has just got horses and old people there's like it's not like there's nothing going on my mum and dad love it there oh they love a bit of west wittering with their dog yeah it's just so the beach i mean and you walk through the field and then you've got this little dirt track and then you're just like boom straight on the beach and we went down there in 2009 and we stayed in somebody else's caravan their mother-in-law's caravan and a spot came up on the site and i mean oh my god it was almost like we felt quite rock and roll we're like sod it just got a caravan should we go for it And so we got the caravan and then we would go down there.

59:23It was just me and James and it's very old fashioned. It's like a static old fashioned caravan from 2009. And we go down there with Daisy, my Jack Russell, and we just sit there. Sometimes we wouldn't even walk the dog. I would sit in there. I would read and I would do jigsaws and James would make me French martinis. And it was like a cave and it was amazing. And we've still had it all these years. I found out I was pregnant with Kit down there and it's our happy place. It's our little place that we go to. But now when we go down there, it's me and James and then four kids and two Spaniels. Wow.

59:53One Springer, one Cocker. Honest to God. Chaos. It's chaos. It's really big. And I nearly took the four guinea pigs down there the other day as well. Thank God we did have a friend who came and then looked after them. Because I said to James, we're going to have to take the pigs down as well. And we'll just put them on the kitchen table and they'll be fine. And he was like, oh my God. No, no, no. No more living creatures in that caravan. It's our cocoon and it's safe. and also I go down there with basically like two, well, a pair of jeans, a pair of shorts, no makeup or anything. I normally don't wash, nobody washes.

1:00:23No. And then we've got a little vest on and a jumper and that's your lot. And it's just like, oh my God, you know, and I go down there and there's all worries and everything. It just goes. Yeah. Just goes. Get by the sea. Yeah. Get by that sea and all your problems go. I know. And you just think, God, you know, I don't know, you know, and what me and James have said, right, we're going to eventually sell everything up, move down there, And then we'll just live in a caravan when we get old. Oh, dreamy with the French martinis. Yeah. But you know when you're like, everything is sort of, it's so busy and you've got to make sure what you're wearing or your makeup and you've got to get it all done.

1:00:56And then you go down there and you realise that none of that matters. And you're just in the elements, really. It is the simple things, which is the biggest cliche, but it's true. It is. It's the simple stuff. It's the simple stuff. And normally it's nature, isn't it? It's like being by the sea or, you know. Here, here. It's one of my happy places too is being by the sea. I just love it. Where's your happy place? Oh, no one's ever asked me that. Have they not? Where's yours? Definitely by the sea, but also I think it's just those moments where there's a TV show on that is either like Bake Off or Celebrity Get Me Out of Here where my kids want to sit with me and watch the TV and we sit on the big sofa and we watch that show together and we're all shouting.

1:01:40I can't actually hear anything that's going on the TV because they're both doing commentary throughout. and we've got snacks and I've got a cup of tea that to me is like the dream oh god it's lovely and now that they've got a bit older and you can actually start watching stuff oh like the Masked Singer we love watching that together that is like they both want to watch it I'm invested I cannot wait for that to start oh my god and the traitors I haven't watched that yet you have not seen any of the traitors literally nothing at all I missed it and then I felt like I'm too far behind so I can't go back.

1:02:14I like that with slow horses, yeah. No, I haven't seen that either. But no, that's one for us because, yeah, you're on the sofa, you've got all of the kids, you've got, like, some cheese, you've got ham, I've got a bottle of sherry, and then we're watching, you know, The Traitors, and we've done Claudia's, we've done the American one, we've done New Zealand, we've done the whole shebang, yeah. We're all sitting there, we're all invested, and you've got, like, your tribe with you, and you're like, oh, my God, this is, like, the best it gets. I love that shit. It is, it's the best. I love it. Oh my God, you've got to watch The Traitors.

1:02:38That's on my list for my next family TV night. Jo, good luck with the book tour. Oh, thank you. And just the book in general. And thank you so much for being on Happy Place. Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Right, if we're going to do one thing this week, guys, we're going to release our inner dirt bags. As I said, pop on Snoop Dogg. Let's go. Hump the kitchen counter like Jo does, if you feel like it. Oh, Jo. I love Jo. I just think Jo would be the best person ever to go for a meal with. Imagine just like getting stuck into All the Goss with Jo Page. I mean, the dream. I really, really love that.

1:03:16Joanna's memoir lushes out on the 25th of September. And by the way, you're 100 % going to want to be back here in just a few days' time because hello, icon incoming. Let's chat on Instagram during the week. At Happy Place Official is where you'll get a little hint of who I'm chatting to next. all right a huge thanks again to Joanna to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you I adore ya

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