Julian Clary on easing anxiety: “I just forgot to have a panic attack!”

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that embraces laughter in difficult moments in life. Today, I'm chatting to Julian Clary. It would be unusual if you hadn't had loss. I mean, I did happen to live through that difficult time where lots of people were dying of AIDS and there was an incongruity with being a comedian and that was your job, going out to make people laugh when awful things were happening at home. But that's the great therapy of comedy is that you can only... And that's why I like being on stage. It's such an escape, you know, because your brain can only think about one thing at a time.

0:39So for those few hours, I was in a happy place. Do you want to hear about a great parenting fail I did the other day? Of course you do. So I thought, I know what I'll do with my kids because I want them to be off screens, basically get them out of the house, do anything. I booked one of those terrifying treetop experiences where you do sort of you like walk on rope ladders really high up and stuff like that. And I booked by accident. Here's the fail part because otherwise it would have been lovely. The adult course rather than the child friendly one. And I got there and my nine year old was like, you've booked the kid one, right?

1:14I was like, was there that option? I think I just pressed the thing that said book. Get there. I've booked the adult one. She's already freaking out. But my son, who's 12, is desperate to do it. Me and my daughter get up there. My son is running around this thing. We are so high up. Every time you step on a wobbly bit of wood, your brain says, what are you doing? You should not be up here. My daughter was having a slight nervous breakdown. I was having a panic attack, but inside, pretending I was cool so that she wasn't totally shitting herself. And we had to just stay up there. You can't get down.

1:46You can't get, once you're up there, you cannot get down. So for an hour and a half, we, I'm playing like a mental, it's like a mental marathon of stay calm in the face of my daughter, who's terrified. We somehow managed to do it. There was some extremely hairy moments, a bit where you have to sort of scale across a rope wall. There's people playing crazy golf below you. I mean, it was a nightmare. Got down. I was so filled with adrenaline that I then, this was actually quite a good bit, got in a cab and I had the giggles for about half an hour. It was kind of, it was sort of therapy actually.

2:19It was like, what do you call it? Exposure therapy. I was exposed to my fears. They were terrifying, but we did it. We got through it in one piece. But if you're booking such a thing, my advice for you today is check if you're booking the kid route or the adult one. Oh my God, never again. Anyway, should we talk about what we're doing today? Because that was just a weird tangent that went off on there. We're going to talk about our brilliant guest, Julian Clary. Julian, where do we even start? What an iconic and colourful, but also very considered and thoughtful man. This chap was just such a treat.

2:56He is obviously a comedian. He's been a staple on the pantomime and cabaret circuits. And now he's extended his sellout Western-themed show, A Fistful of Clary, which sounds, by the way, like an absolute riot. We talked about a lot in this. We talked about the feelings of claustrophobia in social settings and panic attacks in places like supermarkets and on the motorway, which I know will resonate with many of you. We also talked about becoming naturally a bit happier as you get older, more comfortable with yourself, more comfortable in your own skin, being slightly less led by ego, perhaps, as well.

3:33We also talk about sleep and sleeping badly, which I know will be a subject many of you Happy Place listeners will take an interest in. certainly something that I am very interested in still having good and bad nights of sleep and talking about sleeping pills and taking sleeping aids we get really stuck into that one and also him not being a fan of having negative thoughts and how he deals with them which I have found actually extremely helpful by the way I was properly obsessed with Julian socks because they had cats on them and I want them the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold.

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6:09Right, come on then, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:34Julian, how are you? I'm good, yes. Nice and sort of even and steady today. That's good. I like even and steady. I mean, I used to be a bit of an adrenaline junkie and want the big roller coaster, but I think I'm liking the even steady these days. No, I find that's sort of how I am. And there's no great ecstasy moments and there's no depression. I'm just sort of bobbing along. That's really good. Good. Yeah. And you've got your tour coming up. Do you manage to sort of maintain that feeling of steadiness as you approach something like that? Yes, I look forward to it. Do I? I do. No, it's sometimes when you see the list of where you've got to go.

7:15Daunting. But once you're actually doing it, it's great. And it's all about those two hours on stage. It's all, you know, the whole day is arranged. So you sort of peak at seven o 'clock at night or 7.30. And then it's then a sort of slow come down. So, yeah, no, I do maintain that. And it's such a mutually beneficial thing, comedy, because, you know, presumably people like having a laugh. And when I make people laugh, it's good for my soul. and so it's very uplifting and I like that whole creative process of being silly and making things up. And great costumes. There's a Western theme with this tour.

8:05I love the press shot where there's a big willy cactus in the background. I think that was my favourite. Phallic. And it ejaculates. Does it? Yes, I sing. What, spikes? What comes out of it? It's all microfibre lights. Oh, wow. So an exciting moment of the show. It ejaculates behind me and gets a laugh. And that's great because it's a built-in laugh that I don't have to work for. Love that. The cactus is doing it all. And do you get nerves before something like that or maybe moments before you're on stage? Or is it so now natural for you to be in that environment that you can mitigate that element of it?

8:41Yeah, a bit of nerves, a bit of adrenaline sharpens the brain. I used to, like 20 odd years ago, and it's very addictive if you start having self-doubt and panic attacks. And now I got through that period. So no, I'm always up for it, you know. So it's a nice kind of nervous excitement about what's going to happen. Because I do a lot of improvisation and a lot of getting people out of the audience. And that's an unknown quantity. so you don't I've learned to pick the right people I like to think you don't want drunk people you don't want mad people you don't want people who are going to be mortified by it you want people that are going to enjoy it and go on a journey you know where they're not I don't like people too keen either it's quite a specific person you're looking for well it is but with a bit of eye contact you can you can tell I think I can tell and you you pick the right people So how is it just time and experience that has stopped you from having that moment of panic?

9:47Like you said there, it's addictive. The nature of anxiety, would you say, is addictive that you get into a habit? It's like a habitual process that you have to go through before you set foot on stage back in the day. It's not just on stage. When I was getting a lot of those, you'd get them like in a queue, a supermarket queue. I would always get claustrophobic and feel trapped and often have to abandon my trolley. so then any kind of Q situation would bring it on I think your brain just kind of clicks in so yeah that that was a long period of that so I just just grew out of it and talked myself through it in the end yeah I mean I used to get them all the time this was maybe about six seven years ago one of my big things was driving on the motorway I just totally stopped doing it there was no way I could do a motorway journey if I was driving I could just about pull off the A road onto it and then it would instantly hit me and I'd have to quickly pull over or get off and then I just was so scared of it for about five years I just didn't do it at all and maybe I did a bit of therapy that helped but I think maybe you do have a period where you grow out of it and you're just your brain you know stops that trigger stops working so frequently and potently because it feels so overwhelming in the moment that you feel like you've got no control over it at all it's pretty debilitating.

11:07It's horrible and I have had them driving as well. It's horrible. And I had a thing where I thought all the cars were going backwards. Oh yeah I've had that yeah. It's dangerous as well because you know and I had used to have them on the A40 you know that that flyover bit. Yeah. Where you often there's a queue of traffic and you stop right at the top and you look down at the edge of a road that would be a point. Yeah. As well funny isn't it. It is so funny but it can be I mean I was going to say a nuisance it's more than that I stopped doing certain jobs because I couldn't do it I stopped doing live radio that was just a massive trigger I haven't actually forced myself to start that one again maybe I will in the future but I was having huge panic attacks the night before for hours on end I wouldn't sleep a wink I'd be okay just about on air I'd get through it but I would be exhausted the amount of adrenaline pumping through my body and I just didn't want to feel that level of fear for that sustained period of time.

12:04Do you think it affected or impacted your work at the time you were having them? Yeah, it wasn't good, you know. But there is that thing of forcing yourself, which I'm kind of quite up for that. Are you? Yeah, and I was wondering if after you did your radio show, did you not feel better because you thought, well, I've got through, I've done it? Well, I mean, to a degree, yes. But then the next night would be exactly the same again. And I just couldn't keep doing it. I think if I did it now, it might be different and I would feel that sense of accomplishment. And, OK, I'm past that period, but I just haven't forced myself into it.

12:39Maybe I need to be a little bit more, I don't know, forceful about the whole situation. I think what happened, you just one day forgot to have a panic attack. You know, I was in a queue. And I think if you distract yourself, if I was thinking about something else rather than, oh, I'm in a queue, I'm in a queue, it's going to start. And I came out of the supermarket and I thought, oh, I forgot to have a, you know. panic attack so I don't know someone will know won't they the psychology of all that but it does pass and as we know as you get older you get happier and you sort of care less about things.

13:16Yeah I've heard you say this in interviews before that you you definitely feel that the older you get the happier you feel apart from perhaps that you know your brain's creating new neural pathways you're moving on from these periods that are triggering and tricky what else do you think has led you to that conclusion that you feel happier today? I think it's the realisation that things aren't that important. You know, being, if I died a death on stage, that might have been what I was worried about. Well, the worst thing that can happen is that no one laughs and you get booed off. And so what? You know, it's not the most terrible thing in the great scheme of things, is it?

13:56maybe I've reasoned with myself like that but as you get older I don't know everything's just a bit calmer and you've done certain things that you wanted to tick off and so everything's a bonus really when you get to my age I guess I totally get that feeling of you've bombed on stage or something at work didn't go how you thought it would go or you humiliate yourself in front of people I've certainly had moments of that in my younger years where it's been such a huge deal, disproportionate to the actual event happening. But, you know, and I'm in my 40s, but I certainly feel like that is driving me a lot less today.

14:38If something goes wrong at work, I probably can reason with myself, like, oh, it was just a bad day and get over it. But I think when you are younger, it just feels huge. It does. And it's sort of vanity, really, that you are so important, you know, that this matters. So it all passes. Yeah, and maybe also, I guess, because you've had so much more life experience, you've been through stuff that's properly awful and shit, and you have a better gauge of that is worth worrying about and that not so much maybe. Yeah, I think that happens. And you know that you'll survive. I can't think of anything that might happen now that would really derail me.

15:20Maybe I'm wrong. I wouldn't tempt fate, but I think I'd be all right, you know. Yeah. I mean, as you saw when you came into our little studio, I read your first autobiography, A Young Man's Passage, best book title ever, by the way. It was hilarious. From even the front cover, I was like, I'm in. It's a rollercoaster of a book. And obviously you wrote that a while ago now, but I wonder sort of looking back at that period of your life where you really reflect on your integration into the cabaret world and then onto TV and then the peak of fame and being on primetime TV. Also married with a lot of loss and grief in your life and as you've already talked about panic attacks.

16:04Looking back on that era, how do you feel? Well, I don't look back on it very often. You tend to look forward, don't you? I think I've had an interesting life and I think I'm pleased about that. I haven't played it safe. And there's a certain... Certain things are genetic and certain things are, you know, from your parents. My mother's very fearless and I like to think that comes from her. So I don't know. I didn't feel afraid of putting myself in those positions in difficult times. And it would be unusual if you hadn't had loss. I mean, I did happen to live through that difficult time where lots of people were dying of AIDS.

16:52And there was an incongruity with being a comedian. And that was your job, going out to make people laugh when awful things are happening at home. But that's the great therapy of comedy is that you can only, and that's why I like being on stage. It's such an escape, you know, because your brain can only think about one thing at a time. So for those few hours, at least, I was in a happy place. I mean, that was something that was extremely close to home because you lost your partner, Christopher, to AIDS during this time that you were on stage constantly on the TV. I mean, that must have been an incredibly tricky time to navigate.

17:37You know, like you say, knowing the nature of your job and what you were dealing with at home, complete ends of the spectrum. Yes, it's more in retrospect, when you look back, you think, well, how did you do that? But you did because that's just how it unfolded. And I often feel looked after, you know, by some sort of, I wouldn't say a higher force even, but I often think that there is a kind of symmetry or there's like the way things work out, there was a reason for that and and the two sort of balanced each other out and it was odd particularly the sort of comedy I was doing you know which was was at the time a bit confrontational but also very lightweight and very still is very silly and so that is very at odds with all of that Yeah, and I guess, as we all know, because most people listening to this will have lost someone that they love dearly, that period afterwards of that acute grief is, you know, because I guess when you're, especially when you're living with someone who is unwell, there is this sort of daily onslaught of the practical that you've got to deal with and the emotional needs of the person that you're looking after and also your own.

19:00then when they're gone there is that sort of vacuum that's left where you're not quite sure what to do with the feelings and there isn't that practical element anymore or the caring and you're just dealing with the loss and the grief how did you cope with that part of your life well sure that I mean that happens that all takes time and you know I was lucky to be um have the distraction of work I guess but I think I remember and I often think this when people die that oh they would want you to, you've got to live for them as well so you've got to carry on, you've got to have a great time and sort of do it for them.

19:42I have various rituals before I go on stage and one of which is to do with dead people and it's a very kind of Catholic idea that they're looking down on you but as you get older more and more people have died, there's a whole gallery of people now and you think oh who's in tonight oh it's my grandmother oh it's my father and so that's just sort of comforting thing and you think I'll do this show for them that's so nice is there an element of sort of talking to them communicating with them in any way or just having the awareness that they're watching down on you there's an acknowledgement yes but they always um look ecstatic and in in their prime, which is a nice thought that that's what happens.

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22:32Like you say, your comedy has always been outrageous in the best possible way and pushed boundaries and was extremely ahead of its time, especially when you made that transition from your cabaret career to being on primetime TV. But it wasn't an easy time for you to be on TV. And I'm not sure how much you thrived from that or found it tricky, but you had people saying how outrageous or foul-mouthed you were or even had issue with you wearing makeup on the TV because that was obviously a new thing at the time. And some newspapers were even trying to run petitions to have you banned from TV. How much did that titillate you versus make you want to run a mile?

23:11No, I've always felt it was fun, you know, and it was a roller coaster because you'd gone from a very comfortable cabaret circuit, which was all very left-wing and everyone kind of got it. Then suddenly people were being outraged and I thought, oh, good, you know, so there should be. And I enjoyed that. I enjoyed staring people up and educating them. I like to think. Yes, we were. Yes, there you are. Absolutely. Quite. They needed to, you know, there's a connection, isn't there, between fear and ignorance. And so people didn't have much knowledge, hard to believe about gay life. And, you know, we're frightened of it.

23:58The same with lots of things. So I thought, this is what I'll do then. Yeah. Yeah. Great fun. Also, people still love to be outraged. It's kind of almost a hobby. they like danger don't they I like it when you hear a sort of sharp intake of breath in an audience where's it going with this if you decide to do some graphic demystification of the fisting process why not why not have an ejaculating cactus it's fun it's great fun But I think you have to naturally have a resilience that allows you to be outrageous because for many people, and we'll, you know, be talking about this in other areas of Happy Place, you know, there's so many people out there that are, they acknowledge their people pleasing tendencies.

24:55They just don't want to upset anyone. They don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. I've certainly had big periods of my life like that, like, oh, just don't rock the boat. Don't upset anyone. But you actively get a kick out of this. And you've got to kind of be resilient enough to not really give a shit that people might be outraged, pissed off, offended, whatever it might be. Do you think that's a natural tendency you have? Well, it's not my idea of a good night out is not to upset anyone. No, no, no. You want to make them laugh and you're offering escapism, aren't you? But most comedy, you know, there is a very safe variety of comedy that may or may not be funny, but most comedy is treading a line and is, I think people have analysed what laughter is And it's thought to be, I believe, in some sort of sociological study that the reason people laugh is a sort of communal baying sound.

25:57It's kind of warning that this is out of step, that things are out of order. And it's interesting, all that. I don't really want to look into it too much while you're doing it. So I think that's what happens with comedy. I don't think it's just me. Yeah. And it is, I mean, the greatest kick to have people laugh at you and know that you're making them feel good. And we need more of that in life. I can't tell you what thrill it is and how addictive it is. And somewhere like the Palladium, where these theatres are built as variety theatres to feed back the noise to the stage. So it's, you know, it's like a drug.

26:40Oh, yeah. My kids saw you in Panto at Christmas and they are still talking about it. I'd say almost daily. there was apparently I didn't go with them but they and I wish I had but I was working there was a moment where you quite aggressively threw a flump into the audience which they talk about every day they just had the best day out laughed and laughed and laughed I mean as you said there is more than likely some sort of addictive nature to that because it is just the best feeling and you're getting a dopamine hit from it and you know that everyone else leaves the theatre feeling really good what is that come down when you get off stage you know has that changed over the years for you as to how you then get back to an even steady keel afterwards I'm fine straight after show yes I know some comedians Michael Barrymore would talk didn't he about you know one of the reasons he got into trouble was because the you know the the high of being on stage and then he felt he needed to other stimulants as soon as he came off I know I I could go straight to bed.

27:39Really? I could. I'm fine. I think I'm job done. And I never go out afterwards. I never go to parties or drinks or dinners. How interesting. Do you need, is your social battery just flat at that point? You need to just relax and chill out? Because some people love that and feed off that. They need to go to the party. They need to hear about how great everything went, get drunk. No, I mean, I am unsociable. I don't like backstage visitors, really. No. And I don't, I just want to go home and sit on the sofa with my husband. I think of that sort of, because it's such a heightened state and this sort of mad world on stage.

28:17And maybe I need to ground myself by just going home and have the dog there and a cup of tea. Yeah, I'm the same. Or maybe I'm really boring and vacuous. No, I don't want to go anywhere. I don't understand how people can do that. And then they've still got energy to expel elsewhere. If I do anything, even this, I need to just have quiet afterwards. I'm introverted, extroverted like I like the extrovert bit for the work bit and I like flexing that muscle but I need to be on my own almost in silence to kind of counter this experience Oh well, same, yes So tonight we'll both be sitting at home in a darkened room Heaven, I can't wait This is not my favourite hobby just sitting in a dark room in my own Do not disturb Do not disturb Cats allowed, no one else Oh yeah, cats and dogs I mean your cat socks, I'm stealing, they're the best there was a really interesting description of fame in your book as well your first autobiography oh yes very interesting I'm very um I'm constantly interested by fame because I think there is still this and I talk to my kids about it a lot because they're now in that sort of YouTube generation they like I want to be a YouTuber and I want to be famous and I'm interested in dissecting that with them because I got into TV very young and I've experienced different levels of fame over the years and I know as you do how you know it can be in ways fruitful but also it can be fucking awful and bleak and sometimes it's completely flawed me having that level of scrutiny and people making assumptions about you not knowing who you are whatsoever and in the book you you talk about the subject in terms of when you have that peak fame and everyone's talking about you and you've got a lot of people around you that don't say no or they're just there to constantly facilitate what you need it's easy to slip into delusion a sense of you know inflated importance it's really easy to do that would you say you you hit that stage yes I think I don't know what it does to you and it doesn't last for long but but there was I thought I suppose it's sort of self-importance and feeling of infallibility in anything you want.

30:27I think it's in the book about not wanting to travel in a maroon car because it reminded me of my school uniform. And I did go through, I mean, it was only a few weeks, I think, of refusing to get in and phoning my agent. They've sent a maroon car. I can't believe this has happened. It's so stupid. It's great. They would have to Crawfords or whoever would have to send a different colour car. Yes, it's awful. Awful for other people anyway. That's quite fun to look back on. Yes, it is a funny old business. I think in many ways it's probably harder for women in that sort of scrutiny. I don't think anyone was following me in such a sort of salacious way.

31:15But generally, and I like it now, I like it when it all calms down. and people might come and say something complimentary to me in Marks and Spencers. And you think, well, how nice, thank you very much. And it's a positive thing to happen, isn't it? Yeah, really nice. Then you go on your way. I'm not chased down the street. There's none of that carry on and never has been, I have to say. But I think, you know, you're absolutely right. It's lovely when people just want to come up and acknowledge that your whatever it is you've done has touched them in some way or has made them smile it's a lovely thing I think when it is that people chasing you down the street and you know we will have both seen that happen to people in our industries and it's it's it's murky it's not it's not a healthy thing for the human brain and you know we can all throw out examples of you know we've seen lots of people fall into all sorts of despair because it's it messes with your head it changes your psychology and how you see yourself and how you see the world and it's not it's not a healthy thing I mean how do you get that balance today with having a public life you know even doing an interview like this versus having a private life and a life away from all of this stuff I hope you haven't got a maroon car to take me home by the way I'm gonna make a phone call after this and make sure we've got you a dark blue car the balance oh I just sort of comes natural I I mean, nothing is, I remember when I came out of Big Brother, for example, and I had one celebrity Big Brother, and you come out that door, you know, there's all the pyrotechnics going off.

32:54And I hadn't spoken to my parents for three weeks, because obviously you can't in there. And I had all these people around me saying they want this and this, and you've got to go there. And I was very full of it. And I phoned my mother, and she said, could I just point out you haven't won the American election or anything you might think you have so that brought me down to earth I've got mum like that it's a good thing I can't imagine having a pushy theatrical mother that hasn't happened to me I don't know I'm really happiest at home in a very quiet midweek evening with the dog and the husband if he's in, that's sort of where I feel content, you know.

33:48Yeah. Which is sort of, I wouldn't want to be euphoric all the time because then you've got to come down, haven't you? Yeah. And I just feel that my mother's all right, I'm all right, the dog's all right, got a nice weak head, that sort of nice glow that you can get. Yeah. But I think people often imagine, especially when they see people, either very successful people or people in the public eye, as the highlights. And I can even fall into this trap looking on social media like, oh, my God, everyone is at this event. And I'm obviously, you know, I'm not invited or whatever it might be. You can easily fall into that trap of, oh, God, wouldn't it be amazing to have won a BAFTA at the weekend or whatever extreme it is for you.

34:32But actually, those things are always the pits. I mean, you talk about this in your book. there's a story you tell of, you know, back in the day being at the Comedy Awards. And again, you would look in on that as an outsider and think, oh, my God, that's got to be the most hilarious night and very glamorous and free alcohol and just must be just such a hoot. But actually, that for you was even a trigger of anxiety and you were sort of taking Valium at the table and wanting to go home. Yeah, as we know, those nights are torturous. And that was in a difficult period with all of that was going on.

35:08But, no, I prefer not to go to those sort of evenings now. No. I mean, you don't really get anything from them at all. It's just sort of... I do sometimes, you know, you watch these things and think, I wonder if I'd gone down a different path, you know. It'd be nice to be kind of a proper actor and as opposed to just a camp comic. And, you know, you sort of find your path in life by a series of blind alleys, don't you? I mean, I've never planned this, but I think you do sometimes watch the Olivier's or something. Oh, all that, you know, gravitas and respect and all that. But then I think I'm very lucky in that, you know, I write my own.

35:59I'm in my own world and it's of my own creating. So I'm not waiting for someone to cast me in a Shakespeare play or thank goodness, you know, I can just I decide if I want to go on tour. And I don't know, it's turning yourself into a product, isn't it? And just talking about yourself and and things that have happened. So it's for the best that I'm not a proper actor. And I think with my mannerisms and way of speaking and all of that, it would have been unlikely anyway. Oh, I'd like to see you as like Macbeth. Why not? It's not going to happen. OK. I can keep dreaming. But it's lovely that, you know, I feel the same.

36:44I've got an autonomy over what I do now that I definitely didn't have 10, 20 years ago, where I feel very privileged that I can think up an idea or do a podcast episode like this without having to wait. You know, I used to every January think, oh, God, I've got no work at all for the rest of the year. What am I going to do? And you'd sit waiting for someone to call you, waiting for an audition, waiting for someone to be interested, which I think creates a very fragile ego in itself because you're waiting for someone else to tell you you're good enough rather than you having an idea, a spark and then bring it into reality.

37:14It's a lovely feeling. Yeah, it's a very different world, all of that branch of acting and entertaining. No, it wasn't for us. It wasn't for me anyway. No, no, no way. And how's your sleep today? Because again, back in that period of your book, you were taking sleeping pills at points and you weren't sleeping at all. I've had periods of terrible insomnia where it's been absolutely torturous. and I've written off whole days the next day because I've just felt like a zombie and it then starts to send you a little bit doolally because you're so sleep deprived. My sleep's got back on track very slowly.

37:53Again, probably due to therapy more than anything and making slight changes in my life. What would you say has helped if your sleep is better today? It is better. It is that thing of things seem a lot worse at night. If I do wake up in the night and start worrying, then I wake up in the morning and think, oh, well, that was fancy wasting that time. But generally, I'm not troubled by anything. And I mean, the various tricks aren't there of, you know, putting yourself in a state of gratitude so that those thoughts are at least positive and a bit of meditative breathing. And I did some yoga recently on holiday with this.

38:36He was an amazing teacher. And, you know, the Shabhasana where you relax at the end. and there are techniques of breathing in and breathing out obviously. Don't just breathe in. It's a terrible idea. It was very clever. You must breathe out. But no, I've been using some of those and basically I go to sleep very quickly. That's good. And I find seven hours is exactly what I need. Yeah, I think I'm about the seven hour mark. I mean, it's a tricky thing when you're in the habit of taking sleeping pills. I was in a real habit of taking melatonin that I'd always get if I went to the States. And it became a mental crutch more than anything.

39:17It was like a psychosomatic reaction that if I took it, I'd fall asleep. And I felt incapable of doing so without. And it took a lot of just white knuckling it to stop doing that. How did you, what was your weaning off of sleeping pills like? Yes, I think, do you remember Rehypnol? Oh, yeah. I mean, that had reputation, of course. It was a date rape drug. But I used to get it. You know, I used to be prescribed that. And it is lovely for sleeping because you're with Rehypnol. If I could just reminisce, your body kind of goes to sleep before you do. And then you just kind of sink into it. It was lovely.

39:56Oh, wow. As opposed to like modern day sleeping pills, which I do have in case I have jet lag or something. But it's like being hit over the head, isn't it? And that's not what you want. No, no. So, yes, I think, how did I win myself off? I just realised when you finally have a proper night's sleep, you think, well, this is sleep. I don't know what that was. It was just some sort of chemically induced thing. And it's not, the brain wasn't getting much benefit from that, or mine wasn't. Yeah. And do you think, you know, because obviously, like you say, a lot of the time when you are waking up at night, it's psychological.

40:35I mean, there's obviously a whole plethora of other reasons why you might not be sleeping if you've got illness or menopause or whatever going on. But for the majority of people, it's a busy mind. You know, that's what happens to me. I'll wake at three to go for a wee. And then I've got a list of 20 things that are just completely irrelevant and won't leave my brain. And I can't sleep. And I think, again, therapy's definitely helped me with that in terms of the big worries and the sort of obsessional loop thoughts about things. Do you think being in a calmer state of mind or having resolved certain issues or things in your life has helped in terms of sleep?

41:11Yes. It's interesting you talk about therapy. I think when Christopher died, I think I had some bereavement. Well, I did have bereavement therapy and I've never fancied it again. Because I've got this thing about controlling your thoughts and not thinking about negative things. and that if you do think about them, it feeds them. So that sort of makes it worse, actually. So I'm very good at dismissing thoughts from my head. That's interesting. And is it just as simple as saying not going there? It's a technique that you have to learn. There's a number of books by Richard Carlson, which I'm always banging on about, but that's how I've lived my life.

41:54And so this all comes from here. It's sort of mindfulness. It's sort of living in the moment. but he's quite anti-therapy. This is so interesting because I think two things. One I'd say is, my question would be, is there a fine line between saying I'm not going there with that negative thought and the other side of that which is I'm ignoring something I might need to have a look at to process it? Do you ever wonder that? I've had the conversation before with psychotherapist friends. It's exactly what they'd say, that you're not facing up to it and you're not dealing with it. but given that your feelings are just a result of what you're thinking if you're thinking about something negative then you're going to feel negative and I think it makes me shallow by not going there but that's what I choose to do that's not going to certain places.

42:49I think it's really I think it's really interesting and really commendable because I think so often we can all fall into a pit of negative thinking which usually results in us going into some sort of victim state where we feel like the world's against us or other people are massively against us and that might be true in some cases but I think a lot of the time we we create that we create that dynamic between us and the world or us and other people or you create it and you learn it probably yeah if you look at how children behave they tend to move on very quickly and they tend not to hang on to thoughts you know they might have an upset and a scream and then a minute later they'll be running around thinking about something else yeah yeah because they let the thought go yeah I mean it's interesting also if you even look at the period after Christopher died you that could have been a point where you were like this is unfair this shouldn't have happened to me I've lost someone I loved and you could easily stay in that for years and years you know people do and I'm not saying that with any judgment whatsoever but you know with something as big as bereavement that that's an that's an easy slope to slip down I guess yeah I I mean I did have a bad time for I don't know a couple of years and then it was things like I've got to um have a good time for this what he'd want you know i think those are the sort of thoughts that got me through hard to remember now yeah yeah i did have these these cancelling sessions not to say that they didn't help they were boring though it was it's one of those therapists who he would start everything had to come from me so otherwise he'd be projecting or something yeah i remember looking at my watch and thinking what a funny way to earn a living sitting there in silence I mean it can be boring and it can also be I've had horrific therapy sessions I've thought I wish I hadn't done that you know it's very confronting and it's definitely helped me but I don't I'm not sort of I would never take the stance that everyone should do it I think you know I've got friends that are like it is not for me I'm not interested I've got coping mechanisms that I can easily click into myself.

45:07I don't think it's healthy to say, blanket coverage, this should be for everyone. I've heard of brief therapy. Have you heard about this? No. My mother talks about that. She was a probation officer. And it's the whole thing, brief therapy. Whatever your problem is, you can sort it out in one session. They go in and say, what's the matter? What do you want? I love that. One and done. So you get straight into it. I'm not here to judge but it sounds good to me yeah I love that yeah I think everyone's different everyone approaches life differently everyone processes things differently you know got to deal with it in the way that suits you how often do you I was going to say have a seeing to how often do you go to bed with therapists I go every week oh blimey every week but I've had periods where I haven't been for years and then I've had periods where I've really needed it intensely and I've done it much more regularly than once a week.

46:03But at the moment, it feels like once a week is a nice, healthy check-in. And I feel very lucky. I'm saying it quite flippantly. You know, it's fucking expensive and there's lots of people that would love to do therapy and they can't. I feel very, very lucky that I get to do it. And it has, I'd say it's been game-changing, certainly in terms of anxiety, which was my number one nemesis for years. You know, it stopped me working. It stopped me driving a car. It made me anxious hanging out with people and I don't feel like that anymore. I've got very, very little anxiety through, I think someone else, and this sounds really pretentious, but sort of validating certain things that I felt or making things that I'd blown up into this huge scenario much smaller.

46:52How long has that taken? Oh God, not long actually. Actually not long. doing this weekly therapy actually it's tricky to I've done weekly therapy for nearly a year but before that I did an integral bit of um uh EMDR which is an eye movement therapy oh yes which really worked for me for the motorway certainly so I did six months of that and that seemed to just kill off the motorway thing and I could drive on them so I drive easily now with zero anxiety at all happy days happy days so that really worked and then it was a bit on-off therapy And then the last year I've been really disciplined about it.

47:32And, yeah, it's been game changing, game changing. People do, don't they? People in America, that's what they do. Yeah, I don't think I'll do it for life. You know, I think I'll naturally know when, okay, I've reached some conclusions. I've got to a place where I feel really happy in my own skin and things that I know bug me, bug me a lot less. Do you think your therapist would ever say, I think we're done? I hope so. my work here is done they're a very decent person who would not keep me strung along for financial benefit I think they would they would know when we'd hit a wall and got to a good place yes I think most good therapists should excuse my curiosity no it's interesting it's none of my business so do you just arrive and they say right yeah and you just start talking about yourself yeah it's really narcissistic lovely but I like the fact that I don't want to necessarily burden all of my friends constantly with, this is plaguing me or this is bothering me.

48:30I want to have a nice time and chat in an equal, you know, way where the transaction is fluid. And there I know I'm paying someone. I can just offload. And sometimes I don't need to as much. And sometimes there's something that's really, you know, irking me. So I get a lot from it, definitely. Okay. And you go to them. It's not done on Zoom or anything. No, I go to their house. Do you lie down? No, just sit in a little armchair. And do they take notes? No, no notes. But quite similar to your experience of very little you should do this. It's sort of bringing me to my own conclusions, but via just having a chat about stuff and posing interesting questions.

49:11And have they signed an NDA, whatever it's called? I mean, I haven't insisted that, but I think, again, most good therapists, there is just a general knowing that nothing leaves that room, which is a nice thought. because you are telling them I'd read the book Inside Fern Cotton's Mind How I Cured Her Took Five Years Yeah exactly Yeah I mean yeah She's done it She's amazing I'm feeling very very good Very very good Hurrah And no anxiety which is you know Anxiety's shit It is horrible It's really shit It's really shit And you know it's why hopefully people listen to this podcast is because a lot of people out there don't want to feel like that anymore they want to feel happy in their own skin and they don't want to feel like they're in combat every day with everything going on in the world or whatever trigger is like supermarket queues driving on the motorway you know it doesn't have to be that way there's a lot of it about there's a lot of it about and it's feels like it's ramping up maybe it's it's a funny one it's a funny one wow the the tables turned there on me julian Has it?

50:23Started interviewing me slightly. I quite like it. Oops.

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52:06The other thing that we both have in common is a deep love of writing. Yes. I love writing. I've been doing that this morning. What are you working on at the moment? A novel? It's another novel. And I just I love having a book on the go, don't you? It's the best. I love having that part of my brain that, you know, and it's good actually for getting to sleep, for thinking about imaginary characters and what might happen next. so I do love it and I love the contrast to the rest of my work if we can use that word you know which is is on stage and talking to a crowd of people a book is just between you and the reader and I like this period of not even the reader knowing about it just lives in your head and it's delightful I mean I don't know how you feel about that process especially with fiction I'm I wrote my first fiction a couple of years ago.

53:01I'm working on another fiction now and I'm finding it a very different discipline to nonfiction. And I'm finding it a slightly more fragile process in the sense that you are just creating something from absolutely fuck all. And there is an element of self-doubt that comes with that. Is this just a pile of absolute nonsense or is this just a great idea in my head, but it won't translate to everybody else? And I'm about halfway through the process at the moment. And I'm in that bit of, is this, should I abandon this at 46 ,000 words? Because that feels like a big waste of time. Do you have that kind of cycle?

53:39I do. I'm only at 10 ,000 words at the moment. So I've even more doubt because it's like looking into murky Wharton. And, you know, you have the idea, but then the actual business of writing it, It's all got to come out and be made flesh and all of that. But I have learnt that it will be all right in the end, like lots of things in life. It will be all right. And if it isn't all right, then you've just wasted your time, but never mind. How much do you push yourself in that process? Are you still aiming? I mean, this is not even just with writing. This applies to everything that you're doing, whether it's on stage or writing a show.

54:21How much do you push yourself for excellence? Or are you at a place where you're okay with things landing in a successful way, but it doesn't have to be your best, best, best, best, best work? Well, who's to say whether it's excellent or not? I kind of know if it's right. And you only know when you get to the end. So you've got to keep pushing forward. I don't know how you... I wouldn't judge myself like that, really. in performance or a book, not for me to say. I give my all, fan. I know you do. I know you do. And your kids' books have been a ginormous success. That must be a lovely feeling. Oh, it is.

55:06And it's that going back into your own childhood. And I grew up in Teddington, and the books are set in Teddington. And I remember making up these stories for my own amusement because I didn't have a lot of friends. And I wouldn't say it was easy, but there they were, you know. And you can do that double thing as well. It's for children, but it's also because I know a lot of parents read to children. So there's other things that are just for their amusement. We need that, especially at the end of the day where you are absolutely on your knees. you need to read a book that's fun for you too as an adult.

55:48Yeah, and getting them illustrated as well, which is a whole other person's creative input, which was a delightful thing because you'd sort of forget about them, you'd deliver them and then came back illustrated. So wonderful. Yeah, it's great. And making children laugh. I do book events for children. and understandably, you know, I have not been in that position since I started out and did theatre and education in the early 80s, but making children laugh, they don't know who you are or anything. It's just if it's funny, it's funny. It was just as much of a thrill as making a room full of adults laugh.

56:32Who knew? Yeah, it's the best feeling. It's so good. I love making my kids laugh. I'm also making them cringe quite a lot at their age at the moment, but making them laugh is great. What age are they? Nine and 12. Oh, that's nice. So, yeah, really lovely, really lovely ages. But, yeah, the 12-year-old, I am slightly cringing him out. If I either sing or try and be a bit cool, that doesn't work anymore. It does not land well at all. Julia, my last question to you is where is your happy place? Can I quote someone else? Because I saw Barry Humphreys, one of his last shows in London, and as himself, not as Stey Medner.

57:10And anyway, he came out and he, I think it was the first words, this is my happy place, being on stage. And I did have this, I thought I'll exactly recognise that because for the reasons we've been through, really, it's escapism. It's you can't think about anything else. You're making people laugh. So that's good for you. I can't think of any other place where I'm happier than on stage. Preferably the Palladium. Yeah. Preferably Saturday night. That's yours, the Palladium. But I'm still happy there on a Tuesday night. Any night. It's all very happy, yeah. Well, I wish you all the success with the extension of your tour.

57:56I hope it goes swimmingly and that you have an absolute blast. Thank you. And with the rest of your novel writing too. Can't wait to read it. And the rest of my life. And the rest of your life, quite frankly, Julian. Good luck with it all. Thank you. Oh, Julian, thank you. I love that. I also really like the bit where he started interviewing me. I sort of didn't really realise it was happening until about probably 10 minutes in. I thought, God, I haven't asked a question in ages. I better say something. But I really loved it. Julian's obviously just brilliant and clever and thoughtful. And it's really nice to see there's the outrageous side of him, the extrovert on stage, but also this really thoughtful, quiet version as well, which I was met with today and that part of him I love very much.

58:37A fistful of Clary, Julian's Western-themed stand-up tour, will be heading around the UK from the 30th of April. Go see it if you want a good old belly laugh. Right, back here next week, but in the meantime, come say hey on Instagram. We're at happyplaceofficial. Let us know what you thought of that episode. Let's get chatting about it or just tell us how you are. For now, a massive thanks again to Julian, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, you are simply the best.

59:32Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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