Kate Ferdinand

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place.

0:30But they're just so welcoming and it's the most beautiful thing because I was so worried thinking, are they going to get on? Are they going to see each other as brothers and sisters? Is there going to be a void because I'm here and their mum isn't here? Are they going to feel that? They're just brothers and sisters. Kate was on the show a couple of years ago with her husband Rio. I went to their gorgeous house, which was so wonderful. I met Ronnie, Kate's tiny dog, who actually smiles. I've got a picture, I'll dig it out. He's the cutest dog. and very much enjoyed meandering to the downstairs toilet, which leads you through a corridor where there's like a glass floor with all of Rio's amazing football boots embedded into the floor.

1:14I mean, I did take a sneaky picture. At the time, Kate was just a couple of years into her life as a step-parent to Rio's three children. Since then, Kate's had her son Cree and is currently pregnant too, So there have been even more new challenges for her to navigate now that she, like me, has both step and biological children. She's written a beautiful book, How to Build a Family, which I'm incredibly proud to say is published by Happy Place Books. It covers everything from moving in with a ready-made family and how to make your own changes in that dynamic, to managing comparisons with previous partners and how to cope with insecurities around being the right parent for stepchildren.

2:00Quite honestly, it's the book I wish I'd been able to read when I was at the start of my own journey as a step parent. It's brilliant. OK, here it is. This is the show.

2:31Kate Ferdinand, hello. Hello. I am very, very proud and pleased to be holding this beautiful book that you've written, How to Build a Family, published on. That makes me so happy to see the Happy Place book's little logo. This book is bloody brilliant. How does it feel to see it, to hold it, to sort of know that it's a real book out there now? Well, I walked in, I said, oh, my God, you've got the real thing because you get little dummies and you get it all in like a not the real thing, whatever it is, like a booklet. And it made me really emotional when I got it through the post the other day.

3:03I felt really overwhelmed because I felt like it's kind of like our story and what it's taken to get to where we are now. and it just felt, yeah, really overwhelming actually. I bet. And I guess not only because of your personal story but also for you and for me, this is the book that we both wished we'd had. You, when you started your step-parenting experience and the same for me. When I met my husband 12 years ago, I couldn't find anything. I didn't see any sort of resources for that transition from being a single person to then being a step-parent or a step figure before I got married. I had no clue what I was doing.

3:44And you've kind of put all of that passion and drive into this book. And it is, it's just brilliant. I love it. So let's talk about your story because you do, as you said, sort of go into that in this book. You met Rio when you were 26 on holiday. And at that point, you were adamant that you did not want to meet someone who had kids. It's funny. I know you're going to say this. I'm laughing because I don't know how that was so strong, that feeling. I came from my mum and dad divorced when I was young. I come from like a broken home, as you call it. And I was adamant that I wouldn't meet someone with kids.

4:19And here I am, a stepmom to three, writing books about blended families. It's funny how life works out, isn't it? It is. Have you chatted to your parents about your own experiences since of being a kid, but also now being a step parent? Slightly. I don't communicate the best with my mum. So we have a little bit of issue of understanding each other sometimes. That's quite common. We try to, but it doesn't quite, you know, get to where it's meant to be, the conversations, in all honesty. My dad, I didn't see him for a lot of my life, and now we've formed a relationship again. So we're building blocks, and that's going really well.

4:53But, yeah, I literally came from not the nuclear family and thought that I was going to go straight into one. How bizarre is that when you think about it? So what were your preconceived ideas of a blended family before you entered one or you forged one? Because, of course, if you had that strong feeling that you really didn't want to meet someone with kids, I'm imagining that your expectations were negative or the sort of vision you had of a blended family would be perhaps messy or wouldn't function in the way that you wanted. Yeah, I think maybe coming from my parents breaking up and having a stepmom and things like that, you know, if you start a family with someone first, I wanted to do everything first.

5:31I wanted to have the first child. I wanted to experience all of those firsts together I didn't really think about anything else that would be really negative I just wanted to have all of that together but I don't know I don't know why I was so desperate for that but I think it comes down to again books and what we read and what we see when we're young and you don't see blended families it's not the norm is it so you think I was in an abnormal situation growing up that's what I thought and I want to be in a normal one but actually what the bloody hell is normal well exactly And now blended families are so commonplace.

6:02And I'm I luckily know quite a few people that are in a similar situation to me, which has been really handy. That's really helped. I think you realize how many people are in the same position, but you can feel very isolated when you start out in that role. I mean, I I approached being a stepmom feeling quite naive and like the whole thing was a novelty. So I was like, wow, we get to like go to a ball pit or go and watch a kid's film. And I wasn't taking any of it necessarily seriously until I understood the impact that I would have on the kids and that I was going to be a role in their life, a guide in their life.

6:38I had no true understanding of that until I was actually doing it. And you are sort of learning on the job. How did you find that integration into a family at the age of 26? I was kind of the same as you. I just thought, I'll kind of get through everything in life. I'm going to get through this. It's going to be fine. Listen, I knew Rio had kids. I knew that they lost their mum I think my naivety was good because it helped me just go into it with not overthinking it too much like you it was only when I was in it I think actually probably when I moved into the house that I thought wow this is there's a lot more to this than what I thought sometimes you just breeze through life and this wasn't going to be one of those situations I had to really you know my children have lost their mum I've got to really think about how to deal with them be like a positive influence and then that was quite heavy but I was already in it so I hadn't thought about it so I was already in it which I think is a good thing for me for me personally because I'm an overthinker anyway and then when you're in it I just wanted it to work so we do whatever it takes to make it work yeah thinking back now I think someone asked me this the other day if I'd have overthought it when I first met him would I still be here I probably would because I loved him.

7:50So whatever happens, I would still be here. But I really felt like I needed, I didn't know where to turn like you. I just didn't know what to do. And I didn't really have anyone in similar situations. I was quite young, 26. All my friends were kind of having babies. And I had like Lorenz, Tate and Tia who were like six, eight and 10. I just didn't have anything in common with anyone around me. And that's what I struggled with. Yeah. And also you entered not only a family that were formed, but also a family in deep grief not only have the kids lost their mum but also their nan around the same time too that is a lot to take on especially when you're in that you know extremely exciting but kind of strange position of falling in love with someone which is a vulnerable place to be anyway you know taking that risk to sort of fall in love with someone and your your life's going down a different path altogether how did you navigate that falling in love with someone having kids in the situation grief in the mix and everyone's also watching you go through this extremely overwhelming situation yeah it's a lot when you say it like that it's a bloody lot when I think back I don't know how we've got through we always say what did we do because it was so hard and I don't know how we've got through the only thing that I can possibly think that we say is we were just consistent and we showed love to the children and we didn't give up they're the only three things there's not like a particular thing because like you say there's no handbook you don't really know what you're doing so you're going to make some mistakes along the way you're trying to do your best like any parent is I suppose but it was a lot it was a lot and looking back I think that's why then when I had the book in my hands the other day I felt really emotional that I was once in a position where I thought I couldn't even continue and how am I managing this and I feel like I'm failing miserably to now I've actually got a book that's going to help people when they're in this situation It felt just really amazing.

9:42And wow, I've come so far. And don't get me wrong, I still struggle. I'm not like the perfect parent in the slightest. Definitely not the perfect step parent. I still have days where I feel like I'm not part of the family. That is absolutely not them putting it on me. It's my own feelings. It's normal. Where you just feel a little bit, should I be here? What would happen? You know, that sliding doors kind of thoughts. But I'm in a much better place than I was six years ago, it is now, I think. Well, that's why I think the book is so refreshing is not only are you offering up the learnings that you've experienced over the years, as well as you've got experts in there who are giving some really solid tips that I found very helpful.

10:19You're very honest about it's an everyday situation. It's an everyday learning curve. I feel exactly the same. I'm sort of 12 years into being in my stepchildren's lives. I met them when they were five and nine and they're now nearly 18 and 21. one so I've seen this amazing growth and them changing and and I I still like you have you know feelings of insecurity I think one of the things that was very interesting that you touch on in the book that I think most people either moving into this role or step parents who are already sort of living it will feel is the fear of rejection from your stepchildren and you've obviously now got your son Cree your biological son and the feelings can be different towards your stepchildren and your biological children and again that is completely normal you're not you know doing anything wrong having those thoughts I feel exactly the same that I fear my stepchildren rejecting me much more than I fear my biological children rejecting me and I thought that was a really interesting point I don't think I'd ever given it much thought but the feelings are very very real yeah I don't know why that is maybe it's because I feel like we've worked so hard with my stepchildren I've had to we've all had to work to get to this point that it's scary if it would be taken away from me when you've got god that sounds terrible like my biological son isn't scared if they were gone but it's just more of a natural thing having a baby them growing inside your belly you love the baby before they're even born you don't have to really work for that bond it's natural whereas I feel like with stepkids you have to earn that and work for it and the thought of them not being happy with me terrifies me because I want to be the best version I can be for them I don't feel as much pressure as a biological parent I don't know why I feel the same but I can't I can't pinpoint what it is but even now I still you know if someone was a bit funny I think oh my god have I done something and Rua's like no this is normal they're teenagers but you're just experiencing the teen years of a stepchild before a biological so you're taking it all personally but actually they're just being a normal teenager yeah and I have to really try and tell myself come on Kate you need to see the difference here because always it can get a bit much I get you feel like you're not meant to be here and you worry about everything but actually teenagers are teenagers and I was one but my logical brain doesn't always tell me that yeah it's like my emotional brain tells me something different and we're scared of rejection no one wants to you know feel rejected it's a horrible feeling and especially when you say you know as step parents you put work and love and energy and time into these kids you want it to work you want it to feel good and you know I think the hard work definitely pays off because you have that beautiful connection and you know you say in the book six years down the line now you feel confident in that role you feel comfortable in that role and I think that in the context of step parenting it does just take time and experience to to feel comfortable on any level and not not comfortable forever every day but but comfortable enough and for there to have been progress from feeling quite nervous at the start I'm talking about my own situation here as well to you know being in that experience and then feeling yeah more confident it's a good it's a good feeling yeah and anyone at the beginning I remember me and Rio filmed a documentary I think we're like two one or two years in and the lady was like right it takes four to seven years to feel comfortable i was like what i'm only on year two like are you fucking joking me like i need you i need more but actually now we're at six years i can really feel that kind of comfort i don't feel that everyday heightened anxiety that i felt at the beginning like it's hard stepping into a family that's already made and living with them every single day and not knowing everything about everyone and always feeling slightly on the outskirts whereas I think it's now we've made so many of our own memories and we've got all these kind of bonds that we've built that it becomes you just become more relaxed I think yeah yeah and you've got shared experiences like you say you can reminisce about holidays or there's you know funny stories that you all know about it's all those sort of tiny moments that really really count do you think that being in the depths of that grief that you know very quickly you were in that um that heaviness of grief with Rio and the children do you think that helped to sort of fast track your relationship and bond with them somewhat yeah I think so and even just with Rio because I feel like what we've been through in such a short space of time a lot of people don't go through in a lifetime and it's been so difficult with the grief and you know everything that comes with losing a two people that are really important to you so close together that you do form this a crazy bond because you understand each other no one really knows this even with the kids what goes on that doesn't live in our house so you create this bond based on everything that you're going through together even though you know I haven't lost someone and I'm not grieving for their mum like they are I'm still in it with them and you create a bond through that and I think that does make the connection kind of deeper because it's hard to explain but we're just going through so much and we really love and care about each other and it's kind of it has fast tracked it I suppose because I suppose I think I don't want to speak out of time but the kids can see that I'm there for them and there's been lots of not so perfect times that we've all stayed together so it just heightens that love yeah I would say I don't know if they'd say the same yeah of course because you've consistently shown up you've consistently been there through the ups and the downs and I think that is what creates beautiful bonds isn't it and it's it's an amazing thing.

16:04So after you moved into the family home and you started to feel a bit more settled in the role as a step parent, at what point did you feel comfortable to say, right, I want to make my mark here. I want to be part of this family dynamic. I want to help set the rules. And obviously that becomes a natural point where you have to be involved in disciplining the kids because at the end of the day, they're kids and all kids need structure, rules to know what's right and what's not okay in the home. When did that happen for you? And how did you feel approaching those subjects with Rio? To be honest with you, I think, it sounds crazy now, but Rio just said discipline them from the beginning.

16:46So we kind of went through the stage of, I think I moved in October. So I met Rio in January. It was all quite quick. I met the kids in April. I moved in October. But in between that time we went on holiday together. I was around the house quite a lot. So I was having that kind of relationship with them but going home basically picking them up from school but going home so then when I moved in I was already disciplining them slightly I would tell them no you don't do that um I found it really difficult and they probably thought well we spoke about it since like who is she coming in and telling us what to do like but where I was a full-time step-mom and Rio wasn't there all of the time he just said I want my kids to be looked after how I would look them after and I give you permission to do that and don't get me wrong it was hard I didn't really know what I was doing I didn't really know how far to go I didn't want to upset everyone and that makes it harder to form a really happy bond because maybe at the beginning this woman's telling you all this stuff that you don't really want to hear because I think what happened was and I know Rhea wouldn't mind me saying is him and Rebecca were very strict and then I think she passed away and obviously you just want to scoop the kids up so naturally I think they get away with a little bit more than what they would because you just want them to be happy and then I come along and I was like right come on with a certain things that need to be in place that you've told me that their mum would want that I'm going to try and implement with you which obviously didn't make me the greatest person at the beginning but actually I feel like it's the best thing we ever did but for anyone going through this it's bloody tough and they didn't listen to me at the beginning no well kids don't do they?

18:24No, they don't even listen to me now all the time, to be honest with you. But I think they respect me now. They didn't know me then to respect me and I would have to go on and I did feel like I was pulling my hair out. But we have boundaries and we have certain things in the house that we all respect and it's made living with each other easier because we all know, I don't want to say set of like rules, but a set of standards that we all live by. So if anyone dips below them, there's no need for it to go into a massive big thing because we know what the standards are. Yeah, it's really important because I think whatever the situation, this is a really tricky bit of territory discipline because if you've got a couple who are divorced and they both go off and blend families in however which way, you've got two different households doing things quite differently and that can be quite discombobulating for the kids, going from one set of rules to the other or you could have one biological parent who doesn't have any rules whatsoever.

19:27So then when they're in the other household, things get really complicated because they get away with whatever their dad or their mum's house. So it's really tricky. And I think that's a whole other, you know, scenario to unpick with how you come to good conclusions as to how you're going to create some harmony between if there are two homes or two sets of families, whatever. And I really liked the piece that you wrote about a lady Ainsley that you'd met, who was going through a divorce and trying to work out how to do this exact thing. And she and I never even heard of this. She came up with a parenting plan.

20:08So her and her partner, who she was separating from, had this sort of agreement on paper. It's not legally binding, but it's an agreement. and it states what's okay what's not okay how they're going to navigate Christmases holidays etc and it's an agreement of decency that then gives the kids as well as the adults fairness equanimity it's so important I think you've got to do that from the get-go so those things are in place there's actually a website that you reference in the book called CAFCAS and they have a template there which I wish you know that I'd known about all of this back in the day because Because I think if you get all that in place early, it saves so much trouble down the line.

20:49It's so, and she's amazing. Ainsley actually works on the blended team. That's so cool. And she's so great what they've done. And I know it's not easy for everyone because not everyone breaks up and can communicate. But from my experience and all the people that I've spoken to, the earlier you do get that in, the smoother the ride can be. But I know it's not always that simple. That's why it's really important to have lots of different stories in there. because not everyone's the same and it's not all going to run smooth because there's so many emotions involved isn't there there are so many emotions and I love the case studies in this book because you do get all these different dynamics and circumstances and like you say in the book more often than not when there is a divorce it can be very tricky and the partners don't want to communicate necessarily don't get on and there is usually some kickback with new partners coming into play etc none of it's easy but I think like you've proved and hopefully I'm sort of living and breathing it too it's worth it if you love someone if you love the kids it's also worth the massive ups and downs that you end up going through because it's all about love and connection at the end of the day that's really nice when you say it like that isn't it it is though because I think you can get caught up in it and you can get caught up in family drama and stress and this person said this but really it is just through love so anyone that's even started on this journey is because they love someone that's pretty special really isn't it when you think of it like that before the complication comes in yeah I think any relationship has complication whether it's a blended family or not it's a given there's going to be road bumps and I think it's just probably a quicker experience of that in a blended family and perhaps more bumpy at the start but I do think with time things get easier in that cliche way I do I think you know you all get to know each other better and you get to understand each other's boundaries and each other's likes and dislikes and just over time incrementally you find your comfort in it and it can be really beautiful and I wonder how you feel things have changed since you had your son Cree and also you're pregnant at the moment and have another baby on the way how has that changed the dynamic I you know I I personally remember that moment very well where we told my stepchildren, Arthur and Lola, we were going to have our baby who's now a massive 10 year old bloke.

23:06And they were kind of a bit nonplussed about it. I mean, they were tiny. They were sort of six and 10 or something. And they were like, oh, OK. But now, oh, my God, when we have all four kids together, which we try and do as much as we can, I feel the most proud about their relationship than anything in my entire life, that they love each other as siblings. There's no half about it. They're siblings. And to see them all interacting, the big ones helping the little ones out, the little ones annoying the hell out of the big ones, but making them laugh. It's just the most gorgeous thing. Again, not always easy at the start, but it's very, very beautiful.

23:41How have you found the introduction of having Cree in the house and the thought of having another baby coming along? Exactly what you've said. It's exactly like that. But I think I was really nervous at the beginning. And obviously, Lorenz, Tate and Tia have their own kind of way. Well, they're all the same age. So all the activities suit. We all do the same thing. And then all of a sudden, this toddlers come in. It's a nightmare. I know this one. There's such a big age gap. And he's now two. And Lorenz, our oldest, is 16. There's a 12-year gap between Cree and Tia. So the whole dynamic has changed of the house because all of a sudden, there's this little human that needs help all the time.

24:17So I think naturally Cree gets more of my time, but they're just so welcoming. And it is the most beautiful thing because I was so worried thinking, are they going to get on? Are they going to see each other's brothers and sisters? Overthinking everything as you do. Is this going to work? Is there going to be a void because I'm here and their mum isn't here? Are they going to feel that? You know, every question that you could possibly ask was going through my head. But like you said, they're just brothers and sisters. Yeah. And it makes, we sit back on the sofa sometimes and it actually makes me tear up just looking at them all played together and being so happy.

24:52And Cree's like a lunatic. Seriously, he's just, I don't even know what to call him. He's like a boy in a china shop. But he brings so much happiness. And he makes the older ones seem a little bit younger as well because they're teenagers. You know what teenagers are like. They're a bit cool. They're a bit cool, but they're not when Cree's there because they're just jumping around playing with him. And it's so special. it's like so proud of them all together yeah it's a gorgeous thing I completely understand that you know they're all into different things because of the age gap because we still find the biggest one is if we go on holiday we go whenever we go away we take all four kids with us and the older ones want to stay in bed till midday but the younger ones are up at half six and want to go if we're abroad straight to the beach or if we're in the UK they want to go running outside somewhere and it's like oh my god and you're sort of doing breakfast at seven then another breakfast at 11 for the older ones and it's like this is absolute chaos but i think i've just accepted that it's chaos so maybe i'm not where you are yet and i maybe need to accept it because we've just got back from holiday and i was stressed because i want to keep everyone happy but i'm up at 6 30 or whatever with creed and he wants to go breakfast straight away yeah and i understand of course the big ones it's their holiday they want to lay in but then the family is divided in two at quite a few times yes and it's like when do we then come together how does this work and also because creed too i'm gonna go to breakfast with him yeah all that's like say you're in a hotel um i have to but then he doesn't always want to go back to breakfast if they're going at 11 no so it's kind of like right some days i woke them up and they're like god go away and we all have breakfast together and then some days you just let it be separate but i do think you have to accept that there are two different holidays going on it's two different holidays we had this last summer where my the my stepkids were going out clubbing and then well arthur certainly was lola was sort of maybe going out a bit before that and then they were going out clubbing and then they were getting in god knows what hour we'd gone to bed and then i think the lowest point was when rex decided to find the sound effect of a shrieking goat and play it on full blast on a speaker outside Arthur's bedroom at about seven it was like oh no this this is this does not work it's two different holidays and I think I just last year I think it clicked I've got to have acceptance of this it's I think a holiday is always a bit of a melting pot of things but it really sort of heightens all of the differences in the age groups but it is what it is and you know it'll all even out one day when they're all adults or whatever but at the moment And it's, yeah, I don't think any of it's tricky.

27:28Weekends, they can be really tricky. You know, one of them's doing a sports club. One of them doesn't do any activity. You know, everyone's doing different things and it's chaos. And I'm not necessarily good in chaos, but I think I've got better at accepting it is what it is. That's just how it's going to be. Another worry that I thought was really brilliant that you highlighted in the book, and I think many parents who have been through something similar to yourself will really understand this feeling. you were worried about Cree using the word mummy in the house. How have you navigated that?

28:00Because obviously the three older kids, they call you Kate or Mummy Kate, and then you've got Cree who calls you mummy, and that caused you a lot of anxiety at the start. Yeah, it's funny because I only had a conversation about this with Tia the other day, and it's fine. So again, all these massive, massive worries before the event that bog you down, and it all falls into place and it's fine. So Kree calls me mummy. All of the big kids call me Kate. If we're talking about me in a sense, sometimes I'm mummy Kate, but I'm mummy to Kree. But the other day I find myself going, right, come here to mummy.

28:35And then Tia's, I go, come here to mummy Kate. And Tia actually said to me the other day, Kate, it's fine. And it made me, well, I'm emotional. I don't miss the hormones. I keep bloody crying all the time. She said, it's fine. Like, I'm okay if you say mummy. Like, I'm fine with that. Or you don't have to say mummy Kate. And I said, really? She said, I don't mind what it is. It doesn't bother me. So the kids call me Kate. Cree, the little sod, sometimes goes, Kate. And I look at him. But I don't know how this two-year-old, he does it with a bit of sarcasm. And I look at him and he goes, Mummy Kate?

29:08And I go, no. And he goes, Mummy. Like this. I love it. But, you know, it's fine. But it is a bloody worry, seriously, because they've lost their mum. How are they going to react to this little boy? Keeps saying, Mummy, Mummy. They're unbelievable, the kids. They're great with him. They call me mummy when they're talking to him, like go to mummy. And it is all fine. And I couldn't have wished for it to be better. But I think my kids, Lorenz Tantia, are pretty amazing at adapting. And they've made it really easy for me in a sense. Yeah, so beautiful. It seems so that, you know, communication is really key in those moments where you're struggling to process something or you're unsure of how to tackle a certain situation.

29:53The fact that you can sit there and go, look, guys, or you can have a cry and say, this is how I'm feeling. It's making me feel very uncomfortable. I'm worrying about everybody. body that seems key and throughout the book it seems of paramount importance that you can talk to Rio really openly and that you can also talk to the kids really openly and have discussions where you tackle awkward situations painful situations situations where you don't even have the answer that did that come quite naturally or is that something that you've cultivated over time I think I've always been a big communicator Rio's been the opposite when I met him and didn't really communicate but being in this situation and trying to understand everyone's feelings and it being so different to what we all know we absolutely have to communicate and don't get me wrong sometimes you might have to dig something out of a child because they don't want to I know you're not really meant to do that but eventually when we all communicate we just all know where everyone is at I think it's taken some time to get there because I always think especially for children it's hard for them to think about being honest without upsetting you.

31:00But actually, I think it really helps everyone just saying how they feel. And I try not to take it personally. Or I might say how I feel and my feelings might just be really emotional and they might not be actually the truth. And then someone might kind of set me straight. Actually, it wasn't like that, Kate. Have you thought about this? And actually, it makes you feel better. So we're still working on that, but it's a huge part of our lives. And I don't know where we'd be now if we didn't communicate. I like to think most of my kids I kind of know where they're at even if it takes a little while to get there because they've held it in for a little bit it always ends up with a massive debrief we're like right debrief on the sofa come on everyone we're having a chat and we always feel better afterwards always yeah and also I think including the kids in as much as you can in just general decision making you gave a really good example that when you were planning your wedding that was really important that the children felt part of it and that you gave them these love bracelets as well as you sort of giving Rio a ring and that sort of lovely moment.

31:58There was also this bracelet giving, which really made them feel part of it. I think we've definitely tried to do that in our own way too. I mean, I was talking to my stepson Arthur about this. He was back from university at Easter and we were looking at wedding pictures. I was actually showing his very lovely new girlfriend, Izzy, pictures of Arthur in a giant suit at our wedding, which was the cringey, like, cliche parent thing to do. And there was pictures of our wedding cake. And I was like, oh, you chose all the flavours of that. Do you remember? Because we got Arthur and Lola to pick what the cake was.

32:29And he was like, no, don't remember that at all. I was like, oh, great. To me, it was this huge moment where they were all involved in the colours of the flowers on the cake or whatever. But it was really fun at the time. And it made them really part of the whole day and the celebration. I think, you know, where you can, it is so important to include the kids in all the big life decisions, in all the planning. just so they're not left out or feel like in the dark with situations. 100%. And the cake thing's funny because there's things that we've done like that and I think they're massive moments and the kids don't remember.

33:03And I'm like, oh, God, that's like a really thing that I'm proud of. But I think they always remember how you made them feel. So they always remember that they feel included, but they might not remember the moments. And sitting here saying, include your kid in every life decision, it sounds a lot, but just them being there and feeling like they're included and not things being sprung on them was a really big part because we've had so much change in our house. You can't just spring change on a child. So it's like you have discussions about it. And I suppose that's probably where it started, like maybe when we got the kitchen decorated, which was like the first thing we'd done in the house.

33:35We had to talk about it and include the kids because they couldn't come home one day and the kitchen of the house that their mum and dad built was being torn down. Whereas really, would I tell Crewe if I was going to go and paint a wall in a bedroom when he's held up? Probably wouldn't. To be honest with you, back then, but now we're all included in it because we have to. We have to talk about it so that everyone's comfortable. Yeah, and I think you're right. The amount of change that's happening for children in any blended family, it is a lot. Because already you're growing, you're at school, you're learning constantly.

34:08You've got friendship dynamics. For them to be also maybe moving between two houses or for their parents to be divorcing, whatever it is, is a lot of change. So I think where you can add some sort of support or buffer that change is really important. Another really important point in the book that I'm glad you covered is the feelings that you have as a step parent when it comes to comparison. Comparison is obviously the thief of joy in every area of life. But when you're a step parent, it is so easy to compare yourself to either your partner's ex-partner, how they parented and all of the things that come with that, but also to families that aren't blended.

34:52And that one I hadn't really thought about as much until I read that in your book. I guess when I've been out and about socially, especially before my biological children were born, if I was out with my step kids, I would compare our set up to non-blended family set ups. very subconsciously but it would make me feel edgy or I'd feel judged if other people were sort of watching us or or said oh are these your you know they would just assume they were my children and then there's the weird conversation of oh they're not actually my biological children it's all it feels uncomfortable in the moment how have you navigated that just low-level hum of comparison that can hover around when you're going about your every day I think it was really difficult in the beginning and I used to I think I say this in the book more compare myself to maybe my friends as well that have just had a baby and you know it's mum and dad and baby and how kind of simple it seemed it probably not having a baby but from the outside compared to our situation I just think wow they've got it so easy they didn't but I'm just you know and I'm struggling I'm Kate and it's awkward and all these kind of feelings but actually again that has really settled since I've become settled.

36:06So what I found is at the beginning when I felt judged by everyone, I didn't know what I was doing, didn't really have the relationship with the kids. It wasn't like a, we didn't love each other fully then. I was very unstable in my setting, in the house, in my role, in kind of everything. I didn't have a job, so I was very unsettled. Now I'm a lot more settled in each of those things. So that bigger thing of being compared doesn't really affect me because I know that I'm okay. I think it's when you're really unsure of what you're doing and then you feel compared you you're all over the place but I feel settled I know that I've got it okay I know the kids love me so now if I make a mistake they're not going to judge me based off of that mistake it's just a mistake like everyone makes but in the early days I'd feel like I've made a mistake did their mum used to do that oh my god I'm such a bad parent like I was more it's more like self-critical um but it just took a while for me to feel comfortable and stable in what I was doing and confident in my decisions.

37:02And then I suppose that in turn has helped with a comparison. Back in the day, if people made comparison, that would really hurt me. And I'd feel like I wasn't good enough. Whereas now I more think, well, I know I'm good enough and I'm more make it a them thing rather than a me thing. But that's again, come with me being comfortable. Yeah. And you've got to do things your way. I think that's, again, I wish someone had sort of said that to me at the start of my step-parenting journey. just do what you instinctively feel is right it would definitely ask for help if you feel like you don't actually know what to do in a in a situation where you're looking after the kids but create your own rules and and ways you know if you were to have your biological child before entering a blended family that would be more instinctive that you would think oh well this is what I'm going to do because it feels right to me but you don't allow yourself to feel that instinct I think when you're in a blended family you're second guessing everything comparing yourself but you've got to do it your way and I think there's no right or wrong even if we just rewind a bit and go back to you saying you know you met Rio you introduced the kids two months after then you moved in a few months after that that might seem quick but if it's right for you it's right for you I think I met my stepkids after a month maybe because me and Jessie sort of had the chat and we both felt that our relationship was something that was going to be hopefully long lasting and it certainly felt different and we felt like it was the right thing to do but for other people it might be months it could be you know it's there is no wrong or right it's got to be a discussion and what feels right for you with any big decision moving in meeting the kids how you set rules discipline I think it's got to be it's got to be what works for you it's true and That's why it's good to have these conversations because even back then, I'm sure it's the same for you.

38:50I didn't hear anyone saying this. No. So someone goes two, three months or whatever it was. God, that's a bit soon. And you've got nothing, not that you should compare, but to compare it to or no one say, you don't really know because I didn't really know anyone in the situation. So you're just going with it. You're going with this feeling, like you say, and hoping that this love that we think we're feeling here is going to be strong enough to get us through and that we're doing the right thing. But that's why the book is so important. and I'm hoping it will help people because there's lots of different stories and people's advice and you can take snippets which you think will suit you.

39:23Yeah I agree that everyone's situation is different everyone feels different everyone's coming along with different life experiences etc it's got to work for you so alongside doing it your own way you do offer some really good tips that are applicable to everyone one of them is to make sure and you said you found it very hard to write this bit of the book but to have time away from the kids that is very very important how have you benefited from that time out some some bits of the book I'm writing think you hypocrite Kate because I'm saying it and sometimes it's so easy to tell other people what to do but you don't always take your own advice but that is a thing I do now I have to take time away from the kids at the beginning I felt like I was a bad person for that how can you want to be away from the kids you're meant to be a good mum like you shouldn't need time out and now I know that I absolutely need time out and I can't do everything um and I love going for a walk without them or I love saying guys I'm really sorry it's all getting a bit much for me I'm a bit emotional and I'm actually going to react probably in a way that I shouldn't I'm going to my room for 10 minutes doesn't mean they don't come and knock on my door yeah but I you have to do it just to keep your own insanity and sometimes I feel like trying to work be a mum be a step-mom run a house get everyone to their clubs do all this stuff with school all the emails the school emails the football emails I can't keep up and I feel like I'm miserably failing and sometimes I need time out away from all of that to just be me yeah I think that is such a pressure that so many women certainly feel in that role of motherhood or step parenting is that there's this pressure you're meant to be with the kids 24 7 alongside them with every step of the day and actually that's not beneficial to you all the kids of course we want to be there to support them to love them to guide them but you have to have time out and they have to try and cultivate their own independence and way of thinking in the world that isn't you sort of force feeding information and and rules upon them I even had it last night.

41:28I'd had quite a busy day at work while the kids were at school. I picked the kids up from school, brought them back, homework, dinner, all the usual. And then they wanted to play in the garden before bath time. So out in the garden, I could feel myself at like peak overwhelm, exhaustion. I had a bunch of emails I hadn't attended to. And Rex threw a cricket ball and it near missed my head by about an inch. And I was like, do you know what? Time out for me. Mum needs a break. I'm just going to go in the house. I got Jessie who was doing something in the house. I said, you go and do some cricket in the garden.

42:01I just need 10 minutes of deep breathing, quite frankly, in a dark room. But just took myself away because I thought that's just going to end in me exploding and just not being the sort of person I want to be if I do get hit by that cricket ball or whatever happens. So I'm just going to take myself away from the situation. And it hasn't got to be because you also give the example of date night isn't always possible. But if you can find time in the day to have a walk with Rio, have a cup of tea with him in the kitchen, that is enough to just have a bit of time where it's just the two of you without the kids.

42:33Yeah, that's what I think everyone says. You need date night. You need date night. I can't remember the last time. Oh, God, we haven't. We went on date night. There's no time for it. And also, do I really want to spend two hours getting dressed up to then go out to go for dinner? I just want to chill. So it's about finding time to enjoy time together. rather than date night. We love walking. And before I used to think, oh, we haven't had a date night. We haven't done this. But our idea of spending quality time together might not be a date night. Same. We enjoy going for a little walk and having a debrief or drop the kids to school or create a nursery and chat on the way back.

43:09It hasn't got to be this like crazy big event that adds more pressure. No. But you do need to just make small bits of time. And I feel like I've really learned that along the way that it doesn't always have to be a huge event. Not living for these big events. I'm trying to find joy in the small moments. Oh, God, same here. I just can't go out at night is the problem. I've got no interest at all. I'm pregnant and I can't go out at night. No, I'm not pregnant. I just can't be bothered. I can't be asked at all. Also, having a good cry is one of your tips. Just letting it all out. 100%. Now, I spoke to one of the kids about this the other day and one of them was crying and they went, sorry.

43:46And I said, why are you saying sorry? We're allowed to cry. But I'm the first one, I realised, to say sorry when I cry. It's just natural that we always think it's a bad thing to cry. But when you do cry, you feel so much better. I love crying. It's just, it's what a release it is, isn't it? It's heaven. Yeah, and you have to let it out. And I feel like if I keep it in, I'm snappy. Yeah. And I end up being horrible and not being who I want to be. And I don't have to apologise anyway because I should have just let it out. Isn't it interesting? In those moments where we snap or say something gnarky to someone or we just, I don't know, we're just not the parent we want to be in that moment or the partner we want to be in that moment.

44:26Underneath that anger is usually, or that frustration, is usually like sadness. Like you want to have a cry. You feel a bit scared or a bit worried about something. And if you actually do that bit first, you probably won't end up feeling the anger or the irritation or whatever it might be. Yeah, but we always feel bad for crying. But then once I do, I think, what on earth am I worrying about? It's so healthy. Get the cry out and then you're a better person, you're a better parent. And also it helps you understand a little bit why I'm feeling like this. Yeah. Why have I been snapping all day? Yeah.

44:56It's all just getting a bit much. Have a good cry and it's okay. Love it. Have a good cry. It's a great tip. Another one is to try and mitigate the negative voice in your head. How often do you succeed at that? Again, I'm laughing because that is hard. It's great advice. And I've spoke to so many people about it and it's something that I work on. A lot of stuff in this book is advice that I haven't mastered all of it. I might master it 50 % of the time and I'm still working the other 50%. I do have that negative voice in my head and depending on where I'm at in my life and what I've got going on, sometimes it can be really small and sometimes it can be really big.

45:32But I think it's just being aware of it, knowing that it is a negative voice, that it isn't my sane mind thinking. Yes. And even just acknowledging that helps me know and helps me deal with it. Whereas before I used to believe that that was the truth. So not all of these pointers and bits of advice I've got down to a T, but it's just seeing them written on paper and acknowledging it helps me understand it more. No one wants to read advice from someone that's nailing it, by the way. Do they? No. Because I'm sad. I don't. Here's all this advice, but I haven't got it all sussed out yet. I would way rather hear advice from someone living it and dealing with the road bumps and saying, oh, I'm messed up there or I'm still working at this.

46:12I don't want to hear advice from someone that goes, guys, I've got this all sorted. I'm completely nailing parenting and step parenting whatever it might be I just think oh I don't believe you no it's hard all of it's hard and it's challenging and every day presents new challenges so I think your honesty and authenticity in this is what makes it so special so thank you for that thank you also the most valid piece of advice I think in that list at the end of the book is pat yourself on the bloody back because we don't do it enough and if you don't do it no one's going to no one might and you might feel left wanting that so you have to again something I've learnt along the way realise that you are doing a bloody good job and you're doing the best you can and be proud of yourself because I think if you're always looking for that validation from other people you may always be left short because you might not always get it and it's nice to hear it from other people but it's better to know that you're you're doing it yourself and you're proud of yourself yeah and we can be proud of ourselves we absolutely have to be proud of ourselves what are you proud about today about oh god you put me on the fire yeah what today In an actual today?

47:16Or just how you're feeling generally? What do you feel proud of in your step-parenting and parenting journey? Oh, so much. I can't even... Let's think about this. Each day I wake up, by the way, and I do a gratitude journal now. So each day I put the things that I'm grateful for and the best part of my day, and that really helps me feel grounded and happy. But I'm just proud that my kids are happy, that my children feel that they can talk when it's not great, and that my home is a safe place. that's all I've ever wanted is my house to be a safe place where my kids can be like authentically them and feel happy to express themselves so I think I'm really proud of that in a parenting aspect and personally I would say that I'm growing and learning and learning to be learning to accept myself more I think if I look back six seven years I was fighting myself I think and wanted to be the version of me that everyone wanted me to be rather than who I actually was.

48:15And I feel like the more that I am authentically me, the more I shine, really. And I'm proud of my God, I've got quite a long list here. This is good. Keep going. The list should be long. And also I'm proud of just these conversations that I used to be scared to have, these real conversations, I used to be terrified to have because I used to think, God, am I going to be judged? And now I have them. they set me free and they help other people relate and I'm really proud of that as well what about you you've got to give something like I do you know what I think it's a beautiful list and and I and I love listening to that list because I think we all need to celebrate ourselves more whatever our setup outside of parenting and step parenting just give yourself a pat on the back everyone's doing great and be proud of what you're doing um I I am I'm proud for similar reasons I'm really proud that our four children have such a beautiful relationship that makes me so happy I feel really proud like now it's always the tiny things that we've talked about Arthur who's at uni will ring me out of the blue in the day and I like could cry when I see his name on my phone I'm like oh my god he just wants to chat he's just calling me to say hi and that is you know It's those tiny little things that mean so much to me.

49:31Or, you know, when the kids do something thoughtful or like my stepdaughter is an amazing artist. So she'll make me these little beautiful cards when it's my birthday or Christmas or whatever. And it's all those tiny moments. I feel really proud that we've that me, Jesse and the kids have put a lot of workings. I think all of this that we've talked about takes effort and work. but we've worked to ensure that we all understand each other that we all get on that we all focus on our love for each other over anything else going on and that no matter where we're at on any given day whatever challenges we're facing we're going to be in it together that and you know even now Arthur's at uni Lola's going to go off to uni at the end of the year so it's a different phase now because they're not in the house so much but still they know they can come back and that feels really important and I'm I'm really really proud of that and it's really it's an interesting conversation to have because I think I don't often sit and reflect on this last 12 years as a chunk I've just sort of been racing through a lot of it and you sit back and go god we've been through so much together over 12 years and overcome some quite big hurdles at times and the kids are doing great and they're really happy and like Lola passed a driving test last week I'm incredibly really proud of her and sort of slightly terrified but really proud that she can now drive a car and it's just such a lovely relationship to have I don't think it's one that people should be scared of it's a I love being a step parent I cherish our relationship my relationship with my stepchildren so much and I and I absolutely love that role so for anyone embarking on that journey just don't fear it it's a very beautiful thing it just takes like anything worthwhile work and courage and your whole self to be thrown into the mix.

51:23It's a beautiful thing. I love that. It's so nice to hear that. And it does like, it all pays off. Him ringing you like Lorenz, he's moved out now. And when I see, it's the same thing. It's something so small when he goes, I love coming home. When he was like 14, you know, teenagers of that age are like, when I move out, I'm not going to come home. Everyone thinks home's terrible, don't they? And then to see him saying, oh, I just miss home. it's like that makes me want to cry because it means that you love it here and we are doing a good job it's I think it's more in the small moments I went somewhere you know Roxana Fousey I went to her workshop and she said there's a book and it's about termally ill people I can't remember the title of the book and what they wish they could be here for what they wish they could change and no one said anything big it was all like I miss reading a book to my child or I miss picking my kids up from school all the things that you sometimes rush when you're at home because you want to go and get a bed or you want to go and get in the shower you've got your own plan it's always in those small moments are the things that you miss and that really helped like ground me as well I think yeah because sometimes we're always looking for the big sweeping moments and I more feel validation in the small moments yeah and it's you know being a parent is monotonous at times and it's relentless but it is those find those little beautiful moments of connection within it is so so important and I'm just so grateful that you put it all into this brilliant book it's the exact book I wish I'd had 12 years ago but it's going to help a hell of a lot of people who are navigating this complex but very beautiful journey so thank you for writing it and thank you for talking to me today Kate thank you for publishing it because I wouldn't be here about you and thanks for having me I really enjoyed and appreciate that chat um I learned so much from reading the book and I really love how Kate has boldly decided to talk about her private life in this way with with ultimate respect for the children family members involved but has really lifted the lid on what it's like to have a blended family it's been so helpful to me personally and I know that being part of a blended family is now so commonplace when I embarked on this journey 12 years ago I did at times feel like no one else really understood what I was going through which of course wasn't true but i had zero resources and very few friends experiencing the same so what kate's creating online and with this book is incredibly special kate thank you so much for your time how to build a family published by happy place books is out on may the 11th and for lots more book chat head to happy place book club on instagram we love books and we talk about books non-stop there.

53:59We give you tips, advice and listen to your tips and advice too. I'm so loving building that community with you. Next week, a really fascinating look at what it takes to succeed in the sporting world. It's really a brilliant listen. You're going to love it. Make sure you're back here for that by clicking the follow button on your podcast app of choice. Until then, a huge thank you to the gorgeous Kate, to the producer and Ashka Tate at Rethinkordio and to you. You completely gorgeous lot. I love you.