Kate Silverton: Parenting, emotional regulation, and screen time

0:01Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that combines evidence and empathy to help us understand what's going on in our minds. Today, I'm chatting to Kate Silverton. In the wild, baboons, there is something called a stress contagion. If a baboon in the wild sees a leopard and he starts beating his chest because his, you know, stress response will be going, or the other baboons, they might not have seen the leopard, but they'll pick up on his stress. So this is why if our children are stressed, it can trigger our stress and then their stress and then their... That's why I'm feeling fizzy, because I'm embarrassed that I'm in the supermarket and my kids on the floor and everyone's going to be looking at me.

0:43And so my baboon then starts going wild. Kate is one of the UK's most familiar faces as a journalist and broadcaster. She's covered conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, interviewed the stars on red carpets and was gorgeous on Strictly Come Dancing too. But her life couldn't look more different now. In 2020, she switched lanes and returned to her academic roots in child psychology. Now she's a child therapist and has written, oh my God, the most phenomenal book. And I really mean that. You know me, I read a hell of a lot of books. This one is just game changing. It's called There's Still No Such Thing as Naughty.

1:28everything in there is backed by neuroscience as well as Kate's clinical experience it is a real insight into the inner workings of our kids minds it's about soothing their anxiety regulating their emotions cultivating resilience but the thing is this chat is going to be so useful for you regardless of whether you're a parent or not because all these things also relate to our relationships with our own parents and how we look after ourselves.

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3:52Oh, you are going to love this one. It's one of my favourite chapters in a long time. Here's the show.

4:19Hello Kate Silverton. Hello Fern, how are you doing? I'm like, as I just said before the mics went on, I'm chomping at the bit for this chat. There's so much we need to talk about. I don't even know where to start. But I will start by saying our paths have previously crossed in our past lives, in another iteration of who we were when you were an esteemed journalist and newsreader. I was doing TV presenting and we've both gone off on these wonderful tangents that I believe I'm speaking for you, but are more fulfilling in many ways. And more recently, we've both worked on the Princess of Wales Shaping Us campaign, which has been gorgeous.

4:53Jess. So we're going to talk today about childhood specifically and parenting based around this incredible book of yours. There's still no such thing as naughty, which I would say is changing the way I parent. Oh, wow. Massively. Really? Yeah. Can you share? Are you going to share a little bit? I mean, I'm going to pepper the chat with because there's so much in there. But what I appreciated was I mean not only are you incredibly knowledgeable and wise and have studied this subject matter for a long time but you're a parent and that's the bit that I really appreciated because there's no judgment in this book whatsoever it's really gently done I think it eases us all into okay I could change how I do this without feeling shamed or judged and also there's bits from your husband in there which I love because this is still quite a mum based chat sadly wouldn't you say uh what the book you mean no I mean just the subject of like parenting it feels still mum heavy like it's on mum podcast and it's in on mum's net but it's like this is a parenting thing yeah and also a couple's thing because we all know you know if people are pulling in different directions and that's for me why the science was so important because I think the men like the science they if if they have a woman telling them something about parents they go there's a little bit woo woo.

6:15But when you hit between the eyes with the signs, what I'm finding is that the men are coming back and going, I get it now. I didn't get it before. This is a neurochemical wildfire, not a tantrum. I get it. So, I mean, I'm just sitting here, to be honest, just catching my breath because you are the first person to read it. Honoured. You, I mean, that I, I had a text from Fern very early in the morning and I thought, oh, she's got it. And it was about four or about three or four days. And you know, you sit there thinking, and I had this text and I thought oh and nobody else was awake but it was just to have another mum another parent who's going through it is also busy but to say what you said well it's fucking brilliant I mean it's absolutely it's incredible and it's you've balanced science with real life really beautifully I think that's why and I remember you said but it's also in this book Joe Wicks loved your first book and has just said how much that's helped him and changed his style of parenting and what's really interesting is also someone like joe who's been very honest about his own upbringing it does it does enable you this subject matter and your book it enables you to look back at how you were parented without any judgment again and to have the awareness and then to look at maybe the patterns that you've picked up on and that you're passing down and maybe the little bits of room for change for the positive so it all feels doable yeah very doable now one or maybe two questions that most people will ask either when starting working through a book like this or talking about this subject matter is how much have I already messed my kids up and is it too late what would your answer be to those two questions so funnily and I kick off with this um because as you say these are the two the questions that we most often ask ourselves the answer to that to both is no you haven't messed up we you know there is no such thing as a perfect parent just as there's no such thing as naughty so I always start from that premise it's really really important and in fact it's in the relational ruptures that we find sort of the strongest repair very often so I always say listen we start here pick the book up now doesn't matter it's good to reflect it's good to think actually god i could have said or done that differently but as you say without the judgment it allows us to then go forward and change you know when we know better we do better and what was the other question the other question was is it too late is it too late never ever ever too late you know this with all your work that you do i mean i know of 89 year olds that um heal and rewire their brains through therapy so it's absolutely never too late to have the relationship that you want with your children because i think that acts as a bit of a dead end at times or maybe like a hurdle that feels too big you just think well I've already messed up so badly or I shouted at my kid or I did this it's just all awful and I just can't even deal with it but actually what you're saying is well you use the phrase rupture and repair is that right repair so talk to us about that and how we might approach those moments although probably all of us have got something that we've said or done in the past that we feel sort of ashamed about you know we've sort of shouted at our kid about something or we've used a shame tactic you know we've all done it out of absolute desperation no one talks about this stuff we all pretend everything's fine and we're doing we're coping just fine it's bloody hard we should probably caveat this whole chat with parenting is so hard full stop bloody hard bloody hard and this is what i say so i this is why it's good for me to use examples from my own parenting because it's that thing of so let's take two examples then one is let's say you lose your rag and you shout and everyone hates themselves afterwards.

9:54Joe and I spoke about this. Actually going to your children afterwards and genuinely saying, sweetheart, I'm so sorry. It doesn't matter what the incident was. And I always talk about children. They're going to do some mad stuff and we're not going to understand it. It's our job to try and interpret it, which is hopefully what the book does. But actually it's up to us to stay regulated. As we all know, impossible to do. So what happens when you do lose your rag you can go to your children and say sweetheart I am so sorry I got that wrong and I didn't speak to you as kindly as I should have done I'm really really sorry I shouldn't have shouted and I use lots of examples in the book where I did that with Wilbur when he was climbing the walls and I was tired solo parenting with my husband away all of us if we haven't been taught how I mean were you taught emotional regulation I certainly wasn't so my mum shouldn't mind me saying that but absolutely not so it's like if we're not taught it if we're not taught how to regulate our emotions then so that's the work so what we're doing in that moment is saying to our children I got that wrong I shouldn't have shouted because we're asking them not to shout aren't we so we are then modeling the behavior that we want to see so in the apology they're going okay they're not taking it on themselves like I'm bad because mummy must hate me because she's shouting at me which is what the story children can tell themselves but actually we're just saying I got that wrong and so we're modeling lots of brilliant stuff how to say sorry how to be authentic when we say sorry and actually how we're still learning sometimes I talk to children in the therapy room sometimes they'll say actually I realize now that it's not that my my mum wasn't taught this so and and there's a beautiful sort of change that can happen when you get that realization a little example um just this week world book day Wilbur hates dressing up yeah my kids hate dressing up yeah not not with it so I'm always just it is I put something on um Instagram just yesterday and it sparked this whole thing because it's actually some children just don't like it yeah anyway so he said I'm going to take your book because I'm in that I was like fantastic great initiative just go for it anyway and then I do the classic thing so I was slightly embarrassed about it thinking oh god is that a bit show off and tell you know that sort um you know not show and tell show off and tell so I thought oh god so then I then said something and I said oh um will your will your teacher say that you've been naughty and as soon as I said it I thought what the heck it was my embarrassment and my feeling awkward about him taking the book in all this projection that comes out and a little look flashed across his face and it was busy breakfast and I didn't get a chance anyway later that day just at night time we were in bed and I just said Wilbs I said I really noticed earlier that I said the wrong thing I am so sorry I'm really sorry I shouldn't have said that I didn't mean that at all and it was a silly thing that mummy said and he just reached across and hugged me so tightly and it was that moment of thank you for getting it for noticing and just thank you and that's it it's not that we're always going to get things right I don't get things right and I've written a bloody book on it yeah it's impossible so give ourselves a break trust that that's okay we only have to be as the great Donald Winnicott said the psychoanalyst we only have to be good enough the the aim of this book is really to help us all be good enough yeah and I I love that because there is so much pressure we're in this really interesting time where if you look at how our parents were parented it was pretty Victorian I mean I've used my mum as an example many times and she's been on the podcast I never feel like I'm sort of saying the thing that I shouldn't too much because she said it herself but her mum had her incredibly young wasn't massively equipped she was kind of traumaed from the war she'd been my nan had been evacuated so my mum grew up in a bit of a kind of whirlwind So and then my mum was working three jobs and knackered and, you know, didn't always get it right.

13:50So, you know, we're in this place where we're going, right, we're not saying and we're going to fix it all and be perfect. But I think we've got maybe a bit more space, the luxury of time to go, wow, I can see that's my particular lineage. Everyone will have a different story. But we've perhaps now got the connection and the resources and the books and social media, etc. to go, right, we could probably make some good change here. But also we've got this strange pressure from looking at social media and seeing people just having a jolly great time in their matching outfits on their gorgeous holiday and the kids are all smiling and being well behaved.

14:26And we're using that as some sort of comparison as to how we're living life. So it feels like a bit of a pressure cooker in terms of where parents are today. And we haven't even, and we'll talk about this later, got onto screens and all of that stuff, which we will talk about. But it feels like a very interesting time for us to have that awareness and make good change. And I love that you started with this notion of apology because it's definitely been one of the things. And I've got so many things drastically wrong. And sometimes I have sleepless nights about wishing I'd done things differently when I first had wrecks and all sorts of things.

15:01I was going through stuff then. but the one thing I've always been really on it with is saying sorry and even like yesterday you know Rex is pre-teen he's 11 there's a lot going on hormonally he came back from school he was not in a great headspace he didn't talk to me for about two hours and I was kind of going buddy like what's what's up you know what's going on and he was being sort of you know quite dismissive and didn't want me around so I left him to it and then about yeah it was probably two hours later he came and he apologised and I thought if I've done one good thing is that I've taught the kids it's it's really a lovely thing and it's not necessarily a nerve-wracking thing to say I got it wrong I'm sorry and I'm really glad of that really and it's a tiny change but it's so impactful well it is and can you imagine what he's going to be like when he's in a relationship in a partnership later on just to be able so we don't have all the two three-day sulks that we can end up in just to be able to go I had some time out and actually now I'm going to say sorry and and coming back that's beautiful by the way I mean coming back to the cycle as well I see it as really for parents that we're all doing our best in this period so that our children can then do better yeah so we can kind of go okay our parents did this they were limited here they were doing their best we've learned from that and then I think for me the science is what excites me the neuroscience the neurobiology because that's I mean nothing is ever definitive but I think it opens up a whole world of understanding when it comes to behavior and our own behavior as well as our children so all of that combined but ultimately it's just as you've described it's about being human it's about relationships yeah talking about that sort of generational dynamic the interesting thing is parents today that are trying a different tact might be judged by an older generation in a in a way that says this is too soft what you're doing is not we need to be more disciplined about things here and authoritarian how would you tackle that conversation because I think many parents out there that are trying to bring their kids up and they're using maybe could be called a gentler approach or empathetic or we'll get onto the nervous system in a bit but they're sort of looking at that rather than you got this wrong go to your room now or sit on the naughty step when there's a grandparent or an older generation involved in that dynamic it can be complicated because they can say what you're doing is soft and it doesn't work yeah so um i wrote this book having been volunteering with the anna freud center which is another children's mental health charity and was working with a lot of parents there and one mum who had had experienced pretty traumatic time in childhood and had been repeating that with her son and very you know very physically um what we would call abusive but obviously she'd grown up with it and she didn't know any better she'd been through the anna freud school she'd learned everything and having had the science and she literally wagged her finger at me and she said kate you need to write about this because that's the only way that i can tell my mom and the grandparents that they're wrong that's the only way and it was her it was this sort of pleading but actually just going you've got to do this you've got to make this science accessible because she said I now get it but I could only be strong enough to say you are not going to put my boy under the stairs you are not going to do that to him what you did to me because I now know how damaging that is so I would always say really one we can approach it with compassion there's a lot of fear that if I don't control by fear, then my children are going to grow up controlling me.

18:42And that's absolutely not the case. You know, there's everything that I talk about is evidence based. And that's really important to say. But also to be gentle with people when they do that, this is the way it's always been done and discipline this and discipline that. And you think, well, actually discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to teach and to follow. And our children aren't going to follow us if they're always in fear. They might be compliant, but that's a different thing. So you either raise children who are overly compliant, not what we want in life, not with the world and all its problems at the moment.

19:14We don't want just pure compliance. We want children who are going to think for themselves and problem solve. And we want our children to sort of collaborate and work with us. It doesn't mean that we don't say no to our children. It doesn't mean that we don't boundary behavior. When I'm in the therapy room, I invite some pretty big behavior. Now, if I didn't boundary and work with that child to ensure I could end up getting hurt, that's not okay. So I'm helping children to learn how to bring all their emotions and all their anger if they have it, but we can still work within boundaries. And I do the same with my children.

19:51My children, if they might want something, but it doesn't mean they get it. So it's not gentle parenting that, oh darling, yes, you can have that. Of course it's not. That's just as damaging for children to just not have boundaries because it can feel for children without boundaries if there's no structure that it can feel like they're going to fall off the end of the world so that's not that's quite a scary place so we need to meet in the middle but the science really shows us how yeah so let's get let's get right down to basics so the word naughty such an interesting word when you dive into it because the general um consensus i guess would be that it's when a kid is not doing what you want them to do.

20:30If we're just cutting to the chase here. And we have felt maybe as parents that it's our job to go, no, you will do what I've asked you to do. And actually what you're saying is when a kid is being naughty, quote unquote, it's actually to do with their nervous system. So talk to me about this and why a kid might be, it could be having a tantrum, shouting, being defiant, refusing to do what you've asked them to do. How does that relate to the nervous system? Sure. So the nervous system. All right. So every animal has a defence response or a small number of defence responses that we've come to know as fight, flight, freeze, flop, faint.

21:10And there is fawn as well. And every animal has them. So if I am, if we were sitting in here now and suddenly somebody came banging on the door, our nervous system would immediately fire up and go into one of those defense responses. Can we fight? Can we flee? You know, or are we just going to sort of play dead? So our nervous system would get triggered and a whole neurochemical response happens. Now, I explain this in the book that my brain thinks in a certain way, which is why I use this very visual analogy of these three animals in a tree. So we have a little lizard and that represents our brainstem cerebellum diencephalon and it's connected to our nervous system.

21:52So the first thing that happens is even as we're sitting here now, both of our nervous systems are like just tuning into each other in the environment. If there was a loud noise, your nervous system would immediately go up. And I imagine that these messages go up to the little lizard. He then goes, oh, there could be an emergency. And then I imagine him running up. And this is actually what happens in the brain. But he runs up the baobab tree, which is represented in my book. That's the brain. And tugs on the baboon's tail. The baboon is the limbic system. So this happens in a split second. If your nervous system goes, I don't like that.

22:26It runs up. The message comes to the lizard. The lizard runs up. The baboon then hits the amygdala, which we all now know about. the amygdala the brain's fear and processing emotions processing center and that's when you get this big neurochemical response that makes me and makes our children act in one of those ways fight flight freeze or faint you know you get children sort of just dropping to the floor flop always in the worst places yes yes always in like the middle of a supermarket yeah and it's Probably because it's in the middle of a supermarket, it's so busy, so noisy. So we've got this ability.

23:04Now, if something happened now and you and I would immediately process and think, right, actually, maybe that's just the sound man coming in or whatever. We quickly would be able to regulate and bring ourselves back. Well, we'd still have a bit of a jolt. But our children's brains are not fully developed. So the regulatory part of the brain, the bit that I call the wise owl that regulates and sort of says to the baboon and lizards, it's OK. It's just owl coming in from outside. It's all right. You know, they don't have that fully developed just yet. So when their nervous system gets triggered and it can get triggered by physical events like going in for World Book Day and maybe I'm going to get laughed at or a thought, you know.

23:40And if our children's nervous system gets triggered, it can get triggered by physical events. So a loud bang in the middle of the night or the thought of something threatening going into World Book Day and wearing something that someone then laughs at them. because our brain hasn't evolved to detect between physical threat and emotional threat. So that's why our thoughts can feel as threatening and why we have anxiety. So any of that baboon or lizard behavior is what we have then labeled naughty. Because you're not doing, I just need you out the door in your World Book Day outfit because you're delaying my day, just get out there.

24:17And actually their nervous system is going, shit, this is dangerous, this is scary. And actually our job is to just help them regulate their nervous system so they can learn to do it better as adults. And what I liked about the analogy of the lizard, baboon and owl is it isn't just something we're putting on the kids, like that's what's going on in your brain. It's also the same for us. And you talk about leaving a stressful situation with your kids safely outside of a room, putting your hands over your eyes and deep breathing to connect with your wise owl and to go, come on, wise owl, don't let the baboon win because we all have it.

24:50You know, that's when we want to shout and go, oh, just stop doing what you're doing or whatever. but actually that's not going to help them because then they're not learning how to regulate their nervous system it's so obvious but we're so messed up and we so we've just lost sight of this all together and that's why I think for me the visual because it helps me yeah it helps me it's helped me massively that one yeah and if you think so um I talked to a lot of different colleagues around the world and one of them is Dr Bruce Perry who's amazing he's sort of like my god when it comes to neuroscience and I spoke to him and he said well Kate you're absolutely right because in the wild baboons there is something called a stress contagion so if a baboon in the wild sees a leopard and he starts beating his chest because his you know stress response will be going all the other baboons they might not have seen the leopard but they'll pick up on his stress so this is why if our children are stressed it can trigger our stress and then their stress and then but in in real life you just think of it as sort of stress contagion you think that's why i'm feeling fizzy because I'm embarrassed that I'm in the supermarket and my kids on the floor and everyone's going to be looking at me and so my baboon then starts going wild and then we're all in a mess yeah the other really helpful method that you talk about and I'm pretty sure that you've talked about this in your other book is SAS can you talk to us about this because this is something again sometimes I forget to put it into practice I'm like what did Kate say SAS do the thing and it is so helpful for you as a parent and for your kid to again have the awareness of what's going on to talk us through that process yeah so this sort of came from my husband who's a royal marines commando and and sometimes has his own difficulties with dysregulation as he explains in the book so i just thought okay sas because what we want to do if your child is spinning out you know world book day whatever it might be the immediate trigger for us is i've got work to do i've got to get on and then we're all in that stressful situation sas is essentially s say what you see yeah you are then telling your child you're showing them that you see that they're in distress so you would say i'd go rex you're upset is it that simple you can yes so we're that because that can say if we're saying you're upset we're sounding like we're telling them what they're feeling so we're sort of it's said in a way that's like you are really mad but It's kind of a slight question to it.

27:12But yes, because I'm thinking for older children, for younger children, absolutely. You are so mad right now. You are showing mummy how mad you are. Look at you stomping your feet. I can see you. Yes, you are showing me. They might turn around and go, I'm not. I'm just hungry. You go, oh, mummy got that wrong. So we're not going to impose what we're saying. What we see. Yeah, we're saying what we see. I'm seeing you stomping your feet. I'm seeing you really curling up your nose at me right now. I'm seeing you look really mad. So we're sort of showing them, I'm trying to get what you're feeling.

27:46We're kind of inviting them to tell us, yes, and I'm really cross that you're pushing me out the door, mummy, because whatever it might be. So you are, I can see you're so mad right now, darling. You're curling your nose up at me. A is acknowledge this feels really hard. I can see you're having a really, really tough time and mummy's seeing and mummy wants to help. So we're really acknowledging in this acknowledgement, it's sort of the baboon takes on the limbic system. It's like, hmm, her tone is. So we meet them where their energy is at, first of all, because children, if we're not sort of coming up and meeting them, you are so cross.

28:21If I just say, you look really cross. What's that going to do? Fuck all. And piss them off. Exactly. I don't know what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got to go in. You've got to attune. So you've got it. I liken it to like a wave of energy. So you've got to come up. You've got to meet your child. You are so close. You are showing me what you're, you know, so you go, you do that. And then the acknowledgement of how hard this must be right now. I can see, sweetheart, you really, really wanted the cereal box. And mummy said, no, I get it, sweetheart. It's really, really hard. and you're going into then your and then with your tone you're bringing them back back down with a lot more compassion so you meet them up here and then you're bringing it in I liken it to like a surfer on a wave and the waves massive and loads of energy and we want to meet them up there and then we want to bring them back into shore so that's when we go into soothe and we kind of go come sweetheart do you want to come and sit with mummy I know I get it it's really hot come on I'll sit next to you so wherever we are I mean there's been times when I've sat down in the mud next to my kids or in the supermarket because I'm basically saying you're over basically they're overwhelmed right now and I get it I might not always know why but I can meet them and bring them down because it's my job to then bring that in and that's soothing so SAS say what you see and you can describe it with teenagers we want to just be a bit more mindful because they don't like to be told yeah that's why I acknowledge acknowledge the upset you know what's going on in that in that moment it's really noisy in the supermarket whatever it might be and then soothe I get it sweetheart and I'm sorry this is really hard we're not going to give in if it's over a cereal box or whatever but we can we can have our compassion with how they're feeling so when children feel seen and heard that's where we start to have mental health future mental health because they feel seen heard and understood yeah I mean this is the crux of it what we want to do is have a healthier society mental health wise in the future and the only way that we've got any control of it because there's so much we don't have control over what's going on globally politically with screen policy and phones and the digital world the only thing we can do is change how we're parenting and this feels you make a really interesting point in the book by saying and we should probably sort of um bracket the whole chat with this is that if we're going to change the mental health of kids it's not about changing them it's changing the environment they're in which has been created by adults.

30:52This is our job to help them. And what's really interesting looking at even that SAS, which I think is so brilliant because it's catchy. We can remember it. It's really practical. The soothing bit you also talk about even like holding them and rocking them, like making it a real physical endeavor is that actually that's so helpful for us as adults, especially if we haven't had that model to us, that we can have that awareness about what we're flipping out. We can go, wait, let me see what I'm doing here. Right. I'm freaking out. oh god why and then have empathy for yourself self-compassion this is helping everyone but we just haven't been taught how to do it and I think one of the most frustrating things I've found about parenting is when you get pregnant everyone's like this is what you need in your hospital bag and this is how you swaddle a baby and you if you breastfeed this is what you need to learn no one tells you any of this stuff no one tells you how to parent you're expected to know and then you don't realize that you're struggling until you're in the trenches and go I don't know what I'm doing and this is too much and actually I'm not enjoying a lot of it and it feels horrible so these are the basics we haven't been taught that we need to know and you know me reading this book some of it was so eye-opening like I didn't know that and it's so obvious but we don't know we don't know this stuff so there's two things one is that absolutely that that if we want for me mental health comes from where we can manage our stress and regulate our emotions it's that simple yeah and in fact there's another one of my amazing sort of mentors as it were but dr alan shore and he says that emotional regulation should be the whole of child development so forget i mean i quote an academic study in there 2013 from the london school of economics that shows that the biggest and best predictor of an adult's successful as in happy successful life is actually not academics but in emotional regulation can I manage my emotions can I say how I'm feeling can I cope with how I'm feeling we want our children to experience all the highs and lows it's not about being happy the whole time we all know that but it's about being able to sit in the lows and our children can only do that when they've had someone to sit alongside them first that's our job but as you say unless we've been taught that how do we do it but this is where it comes in and what I love about bringing in our ancestors because as I so often say to parents we haven't always parented this way and it's really easy to think I'm getting it wrong why is this so hard and actually it's so hard because we're not parenting in the way that we're meant to be parenting which is in community yes it takes a village to raise a child well that's how our ancestors and not that long ago our ancestors we would have had at least um at least five adults and then adolescents to every one child at least that so our children would have all been playing together out here you and i would have been sitting we'd have had the matriarch sitting here and she would have had and we'd go to her if there was a problem she would be teaching us and passing down the wisdoms we don't get that anymore we live in the nuclear family and and i trace it back in the book going into the a bit of the academic stuff is the industrial revolution changed all of that so it's easy to forget that we can sort of blame ourselves and think our children are disordered or naughty and actually what we're just seeing is that we're living very differently to the way that I certainly think from all my research is how we're meant to live as human beings we're social beings we're meant to live in community yeah we're moving away from this humanness it's like you know I loved reading Gabor Mate's last book The Myth of Normal which just sort of talks around that exact subject of no shit that we're all struggling and having a tough time mentally we're living in the most absurd environment with huge expectation and huge pressure without community and without that help that's a given without you going oh god I'm so I hate to ask but do you mind it like that's the feeling now like is it okay if and I can't do the school running could you maybe help out and everything feels sort of fractured and treacherous and uh whereas before it was like let's all we're all in this together let's help each other out and we've lost that I mean we can't solve that one in this hour long episode of how we get community back but it's certainly something for us to mull over and it's certainly something that I think can alleviate some of that pressure that we feel whether we're you know in a couple or single parent has all of that burden on their shoulders to try and do all of this without that support network is so much to ask of people.

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37:16Another way that we might struggle is when our kids are expressing anger. You talk about how anger is hugely misunderstood in the book. Tell us why. So I always say it's not anger that we should be afraid of. It's if our children are growing up and not taught how to express it safely. So anger is a valid emotion. Anger tells us we feel a sense of injustice that we have been wronged and it galvanizes us to act. What we want children to be able to do is experience anger. I feel wronged. Someone has infringed a boundary, either physically or verbally. they've done something wrong and and then I can say no very strongly I can put my boundary up to say no that's not okay that's not acceptable I feel really angry about that I feel really cross about that and then you can interrogate it but we have to be able for our children they can't just get to that point especially not at two and even at 20 because their brains still haven't finished their development so all emotions when I'm in the therapy room and I say to children all our emotions are valid and they are all welcome and children look at me with their eyes wide and they say what even anger and I'm like yes especially anger yeah and I talk about like having a tea party and we bring all our emotions in and because what we want to do is for our children to be able to say I felt really upset about that I felt really they need to know what is okay as much as we want them to understand what is and isn't acceptable behavior they need to know what's acceptable behavior from adults as well yeah and from other people so in the playground they need to be able to or siblings you know siblings there's a lot of sibling bullying that is fueling the bullying epidemic that we sort of dismiss as oh it's just well actually you know I want siblings to be able to I'm holding my palm out here you know to say no that's not okay so what my job as a therapist and as a parent is for my children I want them to experience anger but then I want them to express it safely and how do you do that because anger is also quite physical yes so how do we let them yes let off and you know this is also for adults or people that you know people don't even have kids you know you just want to express anger in a healthy way and we haven't been taught how no so let's look let's take the toddler that we we all know that so toddlers are brilliant because they can teach us so much and they stand there and they stomp their feet and they get their fists and they're doing this that is fight flight so if i feel really overwhelmed that you know someone's done something that another maybe someone's taken my toy which for children can feel very um you know that they are possessive at that at that age so someone's or someone's come and knock me over the head at nursery with a wooden block or something i'm going to immediately go into fight flight i'm going to experience anger how do i express that if i'm a toddler i'm gonna you know when we're in fight flight we can feel it in our fingers in our toes we either want to run or we want to fight and we might turn around and lamp the other child we've all seen it happen so then what we want to do is graduate from that to children being able to so and I talk I share lots of exercises in the book we can't expect children not to go into fight flight because that is a natural evolutionary response and we can't expect them not to go immediately into sort of gripping the fist if they're angry what we want to do is get that energy the stress energy and we want to release it safely so in my first book I talk about pillow power and I use it again here that for my children so my and I think there's anecdotally this is not scientific research.

40:55This is my anecdotal observations, but a lot of boys, seven to nine, especially after what we've been through the past few years, are experiencing a lot of anger. So what we want to do, and I do talk everyone through how to do it step by step in the book, but it can ultimately involve picking up a pillow. You can't hit me. You can't hit me. You can hit the pillow. So you're doing it with your child. You are allowing them to release their anger but they're doing it on the pillow now i'm not we don't stop there it's not like we're going to go everyone's got to go around you to see people in the street punching you know sort take their punch bag to work day but what we're saying is your anger is valid i see it i see you and i'm going to acknowledge it and i'm going to allow you and it's going to come up because actually the stress response needs to be released yeah it's a physiological this is where the neurobiology comes in it needs a release animals in the wild if they're chased down by a lion they need to escape.

41:51Well, if our children can't escape and if they're told button up, son, you can't, you know, stop moving, stop punching, stop doing whatever, they're not going to learn how to exercise that. And that's when the stress response can chronic, you know, we can get chronic stress. So we've got pillow power. I also stand side by sides with some of my teen clients and we'll stand side by side. And let's say they might be being bullied and I will then get them to throw punches. we do it together you will not do that or whatever words they want to say so they get to say it they really get to say what they're feeling they get to throw the punch obviously I'm always caveating we do not hit or hurt others I don't get hit or hurt in the therapy room and my children don't hit or hurt me but actually that throwing the punch then what we want to do is to graduate and it does take time but this is where I want parents to really feel confident that they are far more powerful than they know in this regard in helping their children to release anger safely I talk in the book about finding a safe space that you name that you can go together and then we start focusing on once children have permission to release then it's about getting that what was it you were so angry about and that's where the punching and you use your words because then you can start saying you will not do that and instead of punching somebody you hold your hand up with your palm up saying you are not going to bully me you are not going to do that to me and I can use my voice really strongly because I've practiced it before so we're graduating does that all make sense I mean I'm hugely hugely I think it's one of the things especially with toddlers that you just feel so ill-equipped to deal with that they're so physical obviously because they they can't articulate how they're feeling a lot of the time as well so everything is so physical whether you're trying to get them in a car seat and they're like planking or whatever it is you just feel like I don't know how to deal with this but actually to know they're not a naughty kid you haven't raised them incorrectly that they're trying to express this kind of physical frustration it's showing them how to do it safely I think I wish that's something that I'd known especially with Rex because he's a boy and there is a lot of that kind of physicality I wish I'd known all of this when he was tiny and I could have been a bit more on it with that we've used the pillow power things since with him and honey she probably needs it a bit less but they love it like it's fun for them because they just like they'll stomp on the pillow and like shove it on the floor and I'm like just go for it like let it out and it's brilliant the other very tricky emotion this is one that I still feel like I don't know how to cope with at all is fear and anxiety both my kids are pretty anxious in the night in the dark we've got a nightlight but they still often at 8 and 11 will wake in the night, want to get in bed with us or I'll get in bed with one of them.

44:35And that's when I know my little internal shame button gets pressed and I'm like, oh my God, I've so failed. How are my kids still waking in the night? And I put so, I know you get the other parents going, my kids have slept through since they were one day old. And you're like, oh my God, mine are like actual big kids and they're still not sleeping properly. And I know it's driven by anxiety. They are, they're nervous in the night. which is normal let me just tell you fern that's normal my son will still get up and run in so let's unpick this because this is a really because i think there's a lot of kids who are getting up in the night and parents are obviously beating themselves up for absolutely no so let's think back we've got a little lizard okay so in my analogy he sits at the bottom of the baobab tree and so he's the one that's most exposed and alone that's our nervous system our nervous system is always on so even in the night our children's nervous system is looking around these it's checking our internal environment am i hungry do i need a wee you know whatever um and also anything it's also on checking so that little lizard rarely sleeps right if at all so he's we can imagine him sat down at the bottom of the tree and he's he's looking if he hears a little noise in the night he's going to be up because his job as this part of our brain its only job is our survival.

45:55So nothing else matters. If that part of our brain and our nervous system decides that there could be a threat, it's up. So we tend to, we've come to think of anxiety as something odd or abnormal. Of course, we can talk about if it becomes debilitating, but in the main, we want our children to understand that's okay. Your brain and body's designed that if there's a noise in the night, nighttime is the right time for predators. You know, we haven't just landed on the earth we've been here hundreds of thousands yeah in some form millions of years you know the lizard brain is millions of years effectively old so it's geared for survival so if our children if something now we can look and think okay let's just step back is there something for some children there's weird like weird shadows that or for Wilbur there was a boiler in our house we hadn't really clicked until we kind of thought actually he said it's it's the blur sound and we're like oh god yeah of course that is a bit freaky so we can start unpicking it but I think coming from a place of my kid is normal right they are seeking comfort how lovely that they've got you to come for comfort or that you're comforting I'm in that damn bunk bed all the time you know I'm in there or I just go yeah because I think it's easier for everyone I'm gonna sleep they're gonna sleep yeah I'll just get they won't be doing it when you're 17 no no no when they're 17 rather they won't be it when they're 17 yeah right so if they need now we can and we probably don't have time but we might pick up on it now you can go into that anxiety and what we can do with our children and and a lot of children don't forget what we i think it cannot be underestimated what our children have been through the last few years i know we've had fear fear fear that has targeted this lizard little lizard brain our reptilian brain the brainstem cerebellum that is all about survival and all they've had is fear and death so let's not forget let's put that into context i think we do just go oh the pandemic didn't really impact them mentally at all it's like oh my god they weren't at school they weren't seeing their friends they were trapped in a house we know it has of course it has we know it has so i think for many parents i i would say so let's start with that anxiety and fear are normal yeah okay nothing wrong with your children and actually if you are able to get in with them, they come in with you.

48:09Do you know what? It's all good. I've travelled quite a lot. I used to, I went to live with the tribes people in Borneo and they all just lay on the floor. They sleep together. Everyone sleeps together. So it kind of, again, it's about, is it really normal for a baby to be sleeping in another room? No, that baby is going to need to have the physicality of parents. So, and I'm not saying this in judgment, by the way, I'm just saying from the perspective of the baby, we all grow up going well you put the baby in the nursery and this is the way you do it but what I want people to think is and again no judgment but what are the needs of the baby's brain the baby's brain does not think it's very very primitive it's only about survival am I fed am I looked after and the associations that are made in that first year if that little lizard does someone come when I cry do I feel you know if if I feel unsafe if I cry does someone come and pick me up they are associations that are made it's not thinking but their associations is the world a safe place so that little lizard brain has grown up from year you know from dot from in the womb making associations about life and whatever we were advised to do with our children will have an impact so it's important to recognize and that's not to say we can't undo it but that needs then that investment of our time to kind of go actually sweetheart i can see so then we can go into the what is it that is making you anxious they might not know because this part of the brain doesn't use words it's very unconscious but that's where we can use imagery so wilbur for example was having lots of nightmares about sharks and being eaten which is quite a common one for children yeah and so what i did and again obviously with the benefit now of my training which is i'm so grateful for but so i'll hold up a big pad and then i would actually and you've got to do it you don't want to go over the window of tolerance of your child and it's got to be age appropriate but I would hold up a pad and I'd go okay what does he look like this shark and you know he might have gone oh I don't want to do it mommy I don't want to do it I go that's okay we don't have to do it but if you want to show me what the shark looked like we can and then the next day you know he said I had it again mommy okay should we just have a chat with this shark because I think I need to really know what he's going on and then he did draw it so it's about gentle and again I talk about it a lot in the book I do lots of exercises with you know explaining all of this but using imagery is a really lovely way I've had children that have got OCD and actually all their symptoms have really dissipated when you can start talking you know and talking to the part talking in parts is quite nice um you know what part of you is feeling anxious because and then a child realizes it's not all of them yeah they're not all an anxious fizz ball yeah but it's part of them it's anxious and then they can sort of think okay what is it well there's a bit in my tummy that feels really anxious oh I wonder if you could draw what you're anxious about and then it might be leaving you mummy or it might be you know that there's someone at school is shouting at me the teacher's shouting or it might be that the person next to me keeps pinching me under the desk then you can start getting into oh wow okay then you can really getting into helping resolve the anxiety and also just validating it because I think when they don't know if it's all right to feel those feelings and they're just thinking well the teacher does shout or this kid is horrible to me they don't know what to do with any of it so I think the drawing thing is really brilliant luckily my kids both love drawing so it's something that we have used in the past and it's so helpful to get just an insight into what's going on in their brains a really important important topic and you feature it in the book I mean I'm sure you could write a whole book about it is screen time again we are the generation that is trying to navigate this absolutely wild west of a landscape and we don't know what we're doing our parents can't give us any advice because they didn't have to deal with this there's very little advice coming from any top tier anything so we're just making it up as we go along but what i really love again looking at the science is the hard facts that you put in this book one of them being a study by the national institute of health saying that excessive screen time actually thins the cortex of the brain.

52:15So that's just one of the facts and stats that you put in there. But we can't just go, oh, it's fine. The screens aren't really doing anything. You know, like obviously we're all going to use them as sort of babysitters at time. If I've got something to do on a Saturday morning, my kids are definitely going to be on a screen and I'm going to be cleaning the kitchen. I might do a little bit of yoga. But when it moves into sort of all day long or using them in the middle of the night, we do have to worry. This is of concern. How, I mean, I don't know how you're going to answer this. How do we navigate this absolute shit show?

52:49Well, thank you for raising it. And I know, you know, it's, it's something I, it's, as we say, first of all, our parents never had to deal with it. So we get parents saying, well, is it that just say no? And you think, well, did you, did you have this? Cause you don't have no idea. And then coming back to that community. So our children, as we say, it is so much easier to hand our kids a screen because actually we do need time you know and that's really important to acknowledge as well so if our kids were all part of a community that so setting all of that into context okay we looking at the science I think with every aspect of parenting all I ever want to do is share the science to say to parents now you've got the science because it's helped me with my parenting and if it helps you to make decisions trusting your instinct and intuition I think we all intuitively know that screens are not good trusting it then great and then also what I do is give you some you know sort of tactical ways of um of actually sort of having those conversations and navigating it so I always think if you need that you need the why but you also need the how don't you yeah so with screens I think I I've I've even become more hardcore about it doing the research actually it scared me it's really scared me because looking at the research you mentioned that study about the thinning of the prefrontal cortex we know that neurons that fire together wire together and so the opposite is true we've had even the tech some of the tech giants have left and said we know the damage that this is doing so we can't walk blindly into this now i will get parents sometimes sending me videos of them taking away their child's screen and the meltdown that ensues and going what do i do and these are very young children sometimes and I have to say that is a sign that your child is properly addicted in the strictest sense because the dopamine kick that that we all get that we all get from looking at screens you've just come in and gone well you haven't done your homework I'm taking that away or whatever and they literally experience a massive loss and a chemical called acetylcholine which actually makes us angry.

54:57So it's understanding that if you do that, we've given our kids screens. If you take them away, we've set up the addicts and then now we're going, we're going to take your substance away. So we have to recognise how serious this is. Now, with younger children, I think that the answer for me has to be we've just got to remove them. We just have to remove them because we're setting ourselves up to fail when we get to our kids' age. Yeah. when we can start having conversations. But to give a five-year-old a screen and sit them on it, you've got to know that their brains are literally getting wired as you're watching them.

55:34So it's really important. And I don't say that there's no value judgment in that. It is fact. That is it. So we are all in the brain development business as parents, as teachers, as carers. So we want to do our job well. We know that being on screens is wiring our children's brains, not really for the better. So we know that. All the research is in the book. So, and I'm not talking, as you just said, we're not talking about short-term, you know, kind of little periods. We're talking about being on for excessive screen. When we have our older children, and, you know, my daughter's been asking about, you know, people on Snapchat or whatever.

56:09And I think we can start having conversations with our children. One, to let them know how addictive the algorithms are written and programmed to suck them in. And my husband is really good with the kids. He's like, he's like, your brain is going to get sucked. I mean, he says it in a kind of jovial way, but he's like, your brain is going to get sucked out. It's not you that benefits. It's the people who make the program. So he sort of is setting them up to really start interrogating. And I think teenagers are going to start to think we don't want to be used. I agree. So I think we want to tap into that natural teenage rebellion that they go, well, actually, I don't want to be used.

56:42It's actually cooler not to do it. So that's for the teenagers. I really want to have these conversations where we can say you do realize that you're being used. I think that's kind of where we want to get to a bit cheeky, but like, and then for some children, if look for a lot of children, it can be a real saviour because that's the way that they communicate. So I get that. So every parent has to make decisions for themselves. But I think if our children are saying, I want to go on this app or that app, which they shouldn't before 13, that's, you know, what even the tech giants have put at 13, is the why, you know, what is it about being online?

57:15And what is it about? Is there a sense of, you know, because really what we want to go into do I need affirmation am I doing it for affirmation so again I've put a few scripts and sentences to sort of try out with your children in the book that um to sort of go I wonder what it is about that that is making you feel good and then talking about the research maybe that shows that we might feel good initially but do we do we feel good after coming off it because how many of us if we keep watching everybody else having a great time and the girl who's prettier next door and the girl who's doing this or the boy who's doing that does it make us feel good so having really sensible conversations so that they can be a bit more mindful and actually if our children are going online to feel affirmed and to feel prettier or more popular then that's again our job to start working with them and maybe hanging out with them and helping them to feel affirmed by us yeah because the thing is we we haven't been taught this as grown-ass adults because we all, I mean, I probably got a phone, I don't know, I was probably 16 or something.

58:18They'd just been invented. And it was obviously didn't do anything. It wasn't a smartphone, certainly. But in my adulthood, that was part of the thing of this is how your career now operates through a phone. And there's bits of it that I really like, but I can feel myself in my 40s still get sucked into this vortex of, oh my God, like how long have I been scrolling? And also, sorry, what am I who am I now comparing myself to and all of this stuff so actually we need to parent ourselves because we haven't been through this to then show them and I feel the same as you I think because they're going to be savvier with tech and they're all everyone's going to be using tech in some form in their job down the line but it's having these sensible boundaries in place that they can actually create and regulate because we've told them all the facts that's all we need to do is tell them the facts of you know this is what happens in your brain and this is why and And then they can make, and I think they will en masse make decisions in a much more sort of sensible and governed way down the line.

59:16Because we've made all the big mistakes because we were just like going for it. Like kids in candy shops, just like, yeah, I just want to have it all. I think the next generation are going to be much more sensible and they're just going to approach it completely differently. But I do, I totally agree with you. And it's, you know, it's a bit of a battle in our house, probably more with Rex again, because he's preteen. and like you say, they're communicating over games or whatever. But we've sort of worked out boundaries that work for us, that the kids are so, they're probably bored of it now. They're so used to us hearing us say the same thing, which is they can use them on a Saturday and Sunday morning only.

59:53And that's how it is. And once me and Jessie have finished doing all our jobs, we're out the house and we'll go and do something, whatever. I'm very lucky that I rarely have to work weekends so I can be there to establish those boundaries. And no, not everyone has that privilege and they might have to work 24-7. But I think you do have to find those boundaries that work for you. But like you say, they're addictive. It's that simple and we all have to be mindful. One of the big problems I think for, again, our generation is the introduction of screens in school. And without getting too personal about it, I'm really struggling with that one.

1:00:31And the fact that they're en masse now around the UK, and I'm sure it's probably the same in the States and parts of Europe, introducing screens into up to 60 % of lesson time in schools from as young as 11. I feel angry. I feel helpless because nothing seems to be changeable at this point or malleable in terms of the introduction age and how they're going to be used. It's just like this is happening and something doesn't sit right with me about it, but it feels like we're on this steam train. See you later. Like we have no choice in it. What are your thoughts on that? Thank you. I love how you put, I am angry.

1:01:14Good. I'm fucking angry. I was going to suggest at that moment that we get up and stomp our feet, which is actually, there is a... Give me a pillow. I'm going to punch a pillow. But we need to do that. That's the adult. That's the adult book. We need to do that as well. We need to shake out. I love shaking. I shake every day. Good. I shake every day. I'll do this workout class that has, I'd say probably 15 minutes of it, is just shaking. And it's changed so much for me. I digress. Well, no, that's good. Well, there's a science to that, which we know, but that's great. Anyway, so what are we going to do?

1:01:47Yes. Well, I think parents do need to. I think when we, sometimes with policy, look, any of the really big policies around children, for example, children not being visited in hospital and smacking are two of the really big campaigns. Why did they change? Corporal punishment, parent power. So we have to remember, again, I come back to we're in the brain development business. We want to do our job well. Together we can. and I think sometimes it's very easy again because we're all living quite disparate lives the fact that you and I are talking and we're completely in agreement and having the same sort of experiences tells us everything so we need to start talking more we need to come together we need to present schools with the science and say for me it's always about where is the evidence base so what evidence base have you got to support that this is supporting my child's well-being there isn't any There isn't any.

1:02:42And in fact, quite the opposite. So my question would be, let's not in education be sheep. We must look at what works. And it's the same for behaviour policies as well, because there's many behaviour policies that are implemented in schools that are damaging our children. They're shame based and they shouldn't be in school and there's no evidence base for them. Can we just go off on a quick tangent on that? Because that, again, was shocking for me to realise because I knew it, but I hadn't realised. Like even looking at the traffic light system in as young as reception where you're on the red if you're bad and green if you're good and gold if you're extra good.

1:03:15That is shaming. Yeah, that is shaming. Like there's nowhere around that. And we're still using that system in schools. Yeah, that's just a little tangent. And it goes to the core of a child's sense of self. Even as you say that, I get a fizz in my system. You know, how would we like to be called out in the workplace and given a fern? You go and sit on the green one. You're good today. Kate, you go and stand on the red one. I've had it on Instagram. It's not nice. No. It feels like shit. Yeah. It's horrible. I'm in a career of often shaming people. It's horrible, horrible, horrible. And we're adults.

1:03:49And we're adults and we can't handle it. So we've got little children who have got very immature brains, who are unable to regulate and yet they're being shamed, put on naughty steps or chairs to face the wall, it has to stop. It has to stop. So whether it's screens or some of these policies, I talk a lot about how we can advocate for our children and we must not be afraid to. Because we've all been conditioned through our parenting to be compliant. I know. You see, this is where it is. We think we can't. We think we can't. So there's a lot of parents that think, this is not right. but but but you know I'm the one that sort of goes to the front and says hang on actually so we do need to question I'm lucky my mum has a very rebellious nature and that's just how she turned up in the world so she's always been very vehement in like her line of thinking and who she wants to tell and she doesn't care if people don't agree with her so I don't feel too terrified to go I don't think this is right i but i can totally see how many people or parents go well we can't it's the school and this is just how it operates or this is the government-led initiative or all the other schools are doing it and then you just don't say anything yeah so okay one not all schools are doing it we've actually moved out to the country to be in a school where they encourage children to climb trees precisely because of this issue i have to say it's it's really motivated our decision I want my kids to be outdoors climbing trees and exploring space not on a screen they you know and to be in a lesson so we've got to think about eyesight yeah hormones you know in terms of looking at these we know that for adults it's not great to be set posture hunched over screens and when you say hormones this is circadian rhythm stuff so this is you're not going to be producing melatonin as efficiently if you're looking at a screen all day so we all want our kids to sleep.

1:05:41So let's not have them on screen. But they get sent home and their homework is done on a screen, very often on a screen. And so for children who are traveling long distances or whatever, that they come home and they're on there. And then parents are trying to get them desperately trying to get them to sleep, but they've been on a screen maybe an hour before. So we have to start applying the...

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1:07:37you know policies have to be evidence-based and i think that's where we have to come from and for parents to equip themselves to talk to each other this is why we're seeing grassroots campaigns really taking off at the moment because parents are saying enough this is how we get change it changed for children who weren't able to have their parents visit them in hospital that changed through parent power as did corporate punishment so let's look at this maybe as a way forward to say we have to apply what we instinctively know but what science supports and put the onus on the education system to prove that it's in our children's best interest because I don't think they can they can't and it feels like the onus is actually still on the parent to monitor screen time at home so they can have their sufficient screen time at school which again doesn't sit it well with me doesn't feel right it just feels like we're on the cusp of going down a really bad route like many many schools and we are kind of blindsided by it and go I don't know what to do but I feel very inspired and I felt very inspired talking to you even on text before today knowing that it doesn't have to be that way and actually it's not I think the tone at the moment is slightly patronizing that we're a bunch of Luddites and we don't really understand the world and oh you guys are used to like abacuses and blackboards and it's like well no we all use tech at work but we also understand that there's got to be a balance and there's got to be time off screen where we're moving and playing and using a pen and paper I still write my bloody notes for the podcast on a pen and paper because I still believe it's the best way for my brain to remember the information so I'm gonna take everything you've said away today and again talk to other parents and you know outside of even my kids school and just go what are we going to do about this like I'm sure there are many other parents who'll be listening to this nodding going yeah I want to do something and I'd be really grateful to connect with those people and see what we can do like you say we could create very positive change another section of the book and again I know you could write a whole book on this in itself is neurodivergence and I wouldn't want to do this chat without talking about it because it seems like we're in a again a time of change where people it's such a strange contradictory thing people there's more people being diagnosed with ADHD but we're equally told there are so many people out there who haven't been diagnosed that should be so we're going wait what and actually what you're saying well I'll let you say what you think about neurodivergence because again it's probably more to do with the environment we're growing up in, the experiences that we're dealing with.

1:10:17And also we can't look at neuro divergence without looking at the, again, controversial system in place that allows us to ascertain whether someone is neurodivergent or not. And that is a questionnaire. There's no scientific brain scanning way to say your brain is wired differently. It's a questionnaire that we're filling out and going, your kid's got ADHD, ASD, whatever it might be. So how do we navigate this big old ball of info right okay settling in how long have we got I love it um where to begin okay well we've got neuroscientists like Yuck Pungsep who 20 years ago said that children really weren't having ADHD they just weren't playing enough so we're looking at uh Sir Ken Robinson a great in education sort of said children weren't suffering they were suffering from childhood basically and what what they were really both meaning is that if our children are not able to do the things again if we reflect on the context of how our children are growing up more sedentary eating uh more processed foods um all of these things are actually impacting uh stress in motherhood stress in pregnancy rather and in motherhood but you know stress in pregnancy um there's there's a lot that i talk about in the book that really when you look at it as a whole Well, even I was surprised when I did the research and I speak to people like Gabor personally and, you know, and take a lot from all of his research.

1:11:44And you look at it and you're like, why are we even questioning whether there's a problem with our children? The problem is not with our children. It is with their environment. And so we come back to with let's take ADHD. As you say, it's it's there's no blood test. There's no brain scan. there's a lot of people that I'm also uh speaking to now Dr Lucy Johnston um of the power threat meaning framework a lot of her work is looking at actually misdiagnosis in terms of saying you've got ADHD but you haven't yes um and actually uh Margot Sunderland who's who's one of my mentors um child psychotherapist she's like all young children have ADHD ADHD is when we cannot we find it more difficult to regulate our emotions.

1:12:31So a lot of, for a lot of children, I think that people are looking and thinking that child's got something wrong with them. Or I've heard some people, you know, teachers have said, oh, you know, that child, they don't speak when I talk to them or they go under the desk and they might have ASD. And I'm like, well, let's just talk about the fight, flight, freeze response, because that child might go mute because they're absolutely petrified at being asked a question that they don't know the answer to, or they really are so frightened and overwhelmed by being at school that they've gone under the desk because their nervous system not them they haven't even thought about it their nervous system has driven it there's nothing wrong with that child so children are children now i i also know and i did the the adhd i paid to have a test done for me because i thought a it'd be quite interesting and b because i have a lot of have a lot of the symptoms i mean i do i've probably got all the things?

1:13:24I think most of us. I like to think, what I tend to say is that, look, we are all on a spectrum. Some of us will be brilliant at creative things and our brain is less good at this. Our brains are all wired differently. It doesn't mean to say there's something wrong with us. The word disorder is the problem here, right? Yes. I talk a lot with Drop the Disorder. It's a great organisation and they do a lot of work in this regard. I think there's a huge compassion. I know for parents it is terribly distressing when their children are behaving in ways that they just don't understand hopefully with my book this is what I want to do is to sort of say please let's not look at children as having a problem but there is something that is distressing them and once we can get into that a lot of these big behaviors will disappear they will disappear I I work with children all the time.

1:14:14They disappear. So or at least dissipate. So I think coming in my message really is let's let's try to lose the labels if we can. I understand that they can help because they can sometimes give us a sense of, ah, OK, so I can put my child in that. But it can be quite debilitating for children then because people either over expect or don't expect so much of them when these kids are brilliant. Their brains, my brain works brilliantly. but it's not great accounts you know it's absolutely awful but let's work with our children with what they're brilliant at for starters if children are behaving in a dysregulated way let's not look at it that it's a symptom of adhd let's look at it as a symptom of emotional dysregulation we can work with that so um there is also a real muddle uh around children who have experienced trauma and they are so for example we might have a boy I use an example in the book a boy who's being bullied and his parents are going through a very acrimonious divorce it's just an example now he then gets violent in the playground because he's being bullied so he needs to make himself bigger to fend the bullies off and he's also thinking that the divorce is his fault so he's experiencing a huge amount of shame now he then gets diagnosed as ADHD because he's actions are very dysregulated.

1:15:40If we stop to ask him what was going on for him right then, what's going on for you right now? You know, what is going on in your world and how are you actually coping? This is the power threat meaning framework that Lucy Johnston has created. If we ask him what his story is and understand him, we understand that he's being bullied and he's making himself bigger and punching before he gets punched and that he's having a really, really traumatic time with his parents divorce if we diagnose him with adhd and maybe put him on medication are we really helping him so we're doing our children a great disservice if we're not stopping to look at the reasons why and without and until science becomes more advanced we cannot definitively say that anyone definitively has something called adhd it's not even really a medical it's a description it's an umbrella term so I really really want us all to think very carefully I get that it can be helpful to have it because it can give us more support and lord knows parents do need more support I get that so I'm not I'm not discriminating I'm just saying I don't want children out there to be expressing their distress and then just being told it's because they've got ADHD or ASD I want to know that these children are being seen and heard and not just put on medication because very often, and again, I talk about medication in the book, it doesn't help long-term.

1:17:06It might help in the short term, but it doesn't help long-term. We have the evidence for that. So I really would rather that parents sort of say, okay, well, I'm having a tough time. My child's clearly having a tough time. I need help. Can I have help? Yes, this is how it should be. We all need help and support when we ask for it. But actually, if it's about emotional dysregulation, we can bring our children to the point where we can really get beneath what's driving the behavior and very often very often we'll find that it will it will dissipate and i do quote nadine burke harris in the book who's this incredible pediatrician in the states and she said of a hundred children that she had been sent that she was said these kids have got adhd she said only three would she consider and even then she said you know but only three so we we really need to understand what's going on for our children and ask not what's wrong with you but what's going on for you it's so eye-opening hearing you talk about this and I urge anyone who who this is striking a chord with to get your book because you go into it in more detail and you've got studies in there and it's something that we desperately need to investigate and look at and keep talking about because I think it's also a really um emotive conversation to have lots of people will have very strong feelings about it because of their own diagnosis or their kid's diagnosis.

1:18:26But we've got to talk about it rather than just going, there's only one way with this. And we all know where that leads to. So I think it's the whole thing has been, this whole conversation and your book has been game changing for me, eye opening for me. If Anushka's eyes weren't bearing into my soul, I would keep talking for the next week because you can't cover this chat in an hour. It's impossible. you've done a bloody good job of telling us some extremely important things to consider and to mull over but I just urge everyone to get the book um whether you're a parent or not because I think this is actually about self-regulation and the nervous system for any human you don't have to be a parent to be listening to this you might look after your nieces and nephews at points or or I don't know just want to be curious about your own upbringing and how you see the world I I think it's essential knowledge.

1:19:18Yeah, grandparents, exactly. No, it's an essential read. Thank you for writing it. And thank you so much for talking to us today. Thank you for having me, Fern. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Oh God, Kate, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. That episode honestly could have been eight hours long. I kept looking over at producer Anushka like, I need more time. I've got more questions to ask. and look we only scratched the surface there's so much more what I suggest you do is read Kate's book because there's so much in there reading her book and chatting to her and now really actually forging a lovely friendship with her has genuinely changed my life and the way I parent I'm by no means parenting perfectly but it's definitely changed my outlook on my kids behaviors if perhaps they're kicking off about something they're not doing what I need them to do to make my life easier I'm finding myself taking a bit of a step back to go oh wait what's actually going on here and oh wait why am I reacting like this why am I throwing my toys out the pram it's given me so much to think about and going back to that lizard baboon and the wise owl that is a game changing simple tool that we can all use for ourself for our own children for kids we might look after or if you're a teacher in school I think it's profoundly helpful there's still no such thing as naughty is out on the 28th of March what other books have you not been able to put down recently are you reading along with this month's happy place book club the book is called killjoy and it's by joe cheatham come over to at happy place book club on instagram to let us know what you think of it.

1:21:04All right, until next week, a massive thanks again to Kate, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, go punch a pillow if you need to. Go on.

1:21:50We'll see you next time.

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