Leah Williamson: Switching off, determination, and women’s football

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. the podcast that shows how much growth can come from life's most difficult moments. Today I'm chatting to Leah Williamson. I saw a strength to myself that I just hadn't seen in a long time. I'm making every single choice every single day for me on my own. You know, no one's getting me up out of bed in the morning and saying, you've got to do this today. I didn't want to feel like I'd relied on anyone. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it because I needed to do it for me. Otherwise I felt like if somebody was always pulling me through it, what happens that day when somebody's not there?

0:35What if I can't do it for myself? And I learnt that I could. So I think the version of myself now, I love her so much more than I did before just because she looks after herself. Leah is the women's England football team captain and she plays for Arsenal too. But she missed out on the opportunity to captain her team in the 2023 World Cup when she taught her ACL. L. That's a pretty crucial knee ligament. She's back on the pitch now, but it took a hell of a lot to get there. And we chatted about what such a major injury has taught her, not only about listening to her body, but also about the principles we can all follow to come back stronger from any kind of setback.

1:19Leah and I met up earlier this summer and you'll hear just how much we talked about the idea of everything, life, feeling so relentless and burnout being very real because we never give ourselves an opportunity to pause. Just after I spoke to Leah, I actually took a solid chunk of time off work. And as usual, I really struggled for the first few days to just not work. My head was spinning with ideas and worries. But after a few days, I got into it. And my goodness, did I need it. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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4:26Hello, lovely Leah. Hello. I feel like I've wanted this to happen for so long. So have I. I'm so glad we're sat here. So have I. Life has been very, very busy, but I'm very happy to be here. It's been so busy. So busy. You have just had a little holiday, thank God. I have. I have. Had a good time? I did. I've got everything done that I wanted to do in my off season so that when I go back into football, I love my job again. Isn't that the point of a holiday? Yes. But I wonder, being at the level you're at in your sport, can you properly switch off mentally and physically? Or is it always in the background that you need to stay peak and fitness and you've got that on the horizon?

5:01I'd say I give myself like a week of full, no engagement with anything. If anyone even tries to talk to me about work, which is what I call it, which sounds fraudulent. But if somebody tries to talk to me about it, I'm like, no, I'm switched off. And then after about a week, naturally your body just... Also, I do the same thing all year and I keep in this high professional mode that my body can't actually take that much longer off anyway. Otherwise, I start to break down. So I've always had a pretty good balance. I can't lie. I've been able to switch off quite easily. It's so important because I think, like you say, if you don't have that balance, I think you do start to maybe not massively dislike, but fall slightly out of love with the thing that you're driven to do.

5:45And I think unless you've got that period of time where you can properly switch off, you're just going through the motions. It's really important to have time out. 100%. And also the way that I play sport is led on passion and energy. That's why I do it, because it gives so much back to me emotionally. So if I'm not available to it in that way, then there would be no point me playing, because it's just not me. I think you'd have half the player. So, yeah, when I go back, I want to have missed it. I want to be happy to be back instead of feeling, like you say, like I'm just going for the emotions.

6:19I think it's so important to talk about because I've certainly noticed, even in my arena with podcasting and even how social media works now, there's no off switch to so many parts of our lives. Whereas back 10, 20 years ago, you would do something for a bit or you would work and then have a break. Everything feels quite relentless these days. especially in media everything's kind of it's just constant there's no break and I do think that's where all of us start to reach a point of burnout whether it's taking on that information whether it's looking on Instagram watching the news whatever it might be we're not giving ourself that moment to pause and then we're all reaching burnout and going what the hell am I doing with my life it's so it's just so full on I think it's a really really hard thing to do and I'm I'm glad I feel like I've grasped I've got control of this in a even the smallest way but you you have to pull yourself back to then offer yourself at your fullest to whatever situation you're in and like you said I think it's just 24 hours seven days a week it's just a continuous cycle because the news is available to us we see everything like you said you switch on your phone and you it's all there you can see everything all the time and I think if you don't I always say this I'm like if I don't pull back for me now which is the hardest thing to do to say actually I'm not available for a week two weeks I'm going to be useless to you in three anyway so what's the point but I think I learned that pretty young just from maybe just the way I am as well like I'm not I'm not meant to be this person that just is absorbed in work all the time I know I'm not uh doesn't mean I don't give any less to to what I do when I'm there but yeah I have to take my time away.

8:00I think that's so cool because I think I'm still learning that lesson now in my 40s. I'm like what am I doing? I know this doesn't work. Someone said to me about I don't know four or five years ago I think it was during the pandemic and I can't even think who it was but they said nothing in nature blooms all year round and I was like that is so cool. It's so true there's no flower that's like hey I'm like blooming the whole year and I'm like really trying to bloom in the winter everything has a fallow period yeah and we're trying to go against that and it feels like shit it's so horrible so it's so good that you've you've got that and I guess having a very physical element to your job yeah really makes you focus on that because your body will tell you very quickly if it's out of sync and I mean the last time I actually saw you was at Westminster Abbey thank you very much and a really delightful carol concert that we were at at the end of last year and this was before you'd come back to play your first match.

8:58You were sort of bursting at the seams to get back out there. You'd had that time out. How were you feeling before you played that first game? I missed it. It was the best feeling in the world to feel like I was. I felt like a kid again. OK, there's periods of time as a kid where you're like, oh, mum, don't make me do this, or dad, don't take me there. But when you got there, you always had a great time and that's how I felt about football. Every time I turned up, I was like, yes, this is my job now. But also this is I'm just a kid, like ready to go and have a fun session, basically. But I talk about like burnout.

9:36And before I got injured, I was in that I really went to a low for me in terms of just not being able to find the balance. I didn't know where I stood with the sport or myself. so then to then feel again like wow I love this and I love my job and I can't wait to get back out there and everything I did was centered around it so it was it was a really nice feeling to want to give yourself so much to something. Do you think you fell even more in love with football having that time out? Yeah I do because as well you reminisce so much um I saw a quote the other day and I'm not going to quote it word for word because it's not I'm going to get it wrong but basically like always keeping one eye on the past just not two and I love to go back and reminisce because I think that's what you we do things because we know how they made us feel the first time and you're always going to chase that first time feeling but um looking back and seeing what I'd actually the good times football had given me to then be in a position to sort of re-enter it like a bit of a fresh start I was oh my god so so excited and so in love with the game yeah I mean, there's obviously positives that come from all tough times.

10:46And I'm sure most of us can look back and see that treacherous moments have given us, you know, a new perspective or greater learnings. But obviously, it was also utterly shit. And, you know, when you look back, I was watching back the video of the moment where you injured your ACL back in, it was April 2023. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. And you see the moment where you hit the deck and you instantly know it's bad. Yeah. And you can almost sense an instant heartbreak. Like you, it was almost like I was imagining the future just sort of flashing before your eyes and you were like, oh, I know what this means.

11:23What did that mean for you that moment? The first thing I thought of, and it's true, like I didn't feel pain, like obviously I felt the sensation, let's say, but I didn't feel pain. I just knew instantly that was my World Cup over. Like on an immediate scale. And then also, I'll be honest, I always sort of said if that ever happened to me, I'm not sure I'd be able to do it. I'm not sure I'd want to do that rehab because it goes against everything. We talk about love in the game. They're all the parts of the game that I don't love and I don't want to do because it's the graft. Some people thrive off of it and I have the most respect for those people, but I'm just not one of those people.

12:01I do it because I have to, not because I'm totally into it. And just literally straight away, I just thought this is going to be months of hell. And I knew, you know, it's hard because I got up, I tried to walk. I thought, maybe not, like maybe I'm OK. And as soon as I, you know, that was it. There was no point dreaming of a scenario where it wasn't what it was. I mean, obviously the World Cup was something that was on your mind. It's a massive, massive thing as a football player to be part of. and the heights that women's football has gotten to because of your generation of footballers and what you've managed to achieve.

12:41I can't even imagine the disappointment that you felt. How on earth do you navigate that level of, like, it's the dream has gone. I'm not going to get to do that. You know what? It's one of the most, I don't know how I did it. You know, I don't know at what point. I had my cry in the changing room and I really cried. like I spoke to Serena on the phone England manager I spoke to my psychologist just to like check in and just say oh I'll speak to you tomorrow it is what you think it is kind of thing and I really got it all out of my system that whole journey I had a three-hour journey back to London on the bus to just cry and like really let it sink in and I never like I say I never for one second didn't I knew what it was and I wasn't going to hold out hope for anything else and then I don't know what happened you know immediately you're focused on you know there's there's there's elements to this as well where I wasn't I'm not lucky that I did my ACL but in this generation you come back from that you go back 10 15 maybe not 10 years but you know like you go back a while you didn't come back from that injury so first of all I'm lucky to be part of a generation where this isn't going to end my career now I need to make sure that it doesn't like I need to do this properly so there's like a real element of health to it like I want to be able to crawl on the floor with my future kids and you know like things like that where I'm like this is this is a life thing as well as a football thing um whereas you can get injuries in football that are not you know you're going to be okay you just take some time out from the game and then the minute I had my surgery I woke up and I was really lucky with how it went I could walk basically well like 24 hours later which is it's not usual you know it's not usual so it took me by surprise and I went in to the training ground, Arsenal, just to, because they needed to, you know, they want to have a look at it and whatever.

14:28And I thought, oh, then come in, let me have a look, and I'll go home for another couple of weeks and just have some time off because, you know, practically don't work at this point. But then that was it. Once I went in, then they could see I could walk. I was in. And I think just, it just gave me a focus immediately where I was like, I'm on the mend and I need to get better. Say that, during the World Cup, I started grinding my teeth. you know like all these different things I didn't even realize were happening until it was over the relief I felt when it was over just of having to engage with every day but ultimately I think I got through it just because I just didn't want to feel sorry for myself it comes a point where you're just like I can't I can't wallow anymore you know that's a choice isn't it that's not yeah that's not luck that's not this is just how I've turned up in the world you have to make a choice I'm either going to, this is going to literally ruin everything and I'm going to drown in it, or I'm going to look at this very incremental progress and I'm not going to wallow in it.

15:27I think that that is a choice and it's not an easy one because it requires discipline. It requires real mental focus and hard work. And also you can't rush something like that. How were you with the patience element? Because none of us are patient these days. We've all got the concentration span of fleas and we're just like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? This is a massive test of patience. I cannot tell you how boring it is. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. Like every single day I'd go in and I'd look at my physio. I'd be like, surely this isn't it. Like surely there's something else.

16:03What are you doing? Talk me through the minutiae of these exercises. You know, like you think of an athlete. You go in the gym, you're lifting weights. You're being really powerful and you're sweating. and I'm not breaking a sweat. Like I'm not, I can't physically move enough to cause any sort of, I don't know, like distress to my body. The only distress is in my knee because it just doesn't move how it's meant to. But you're learning to walk again. So I'm walking and somebody's saying, straighten your leg. And I'm thinking, my leg is fucking straight. But it's not. And you're just listening to all the, So, you know, I'm sitting on a, you know, big exercise ball, just going down into a squat and up again for 12 times.

16:46You know, we're talking like five seconds down, 12 times times four. You know how long that takes? Like when you actually think about it and being an athlete, like I'm always, if I want the run to be done quicker, I run faster. You know, I just work harder and it's just not possible. And I can't, I can't tell you how hard it was to be patient. and I used to scream at my physio every day. Like, give me something else. Or somebody else, there was a girl that did it a couple of weeks after me and I'd constantly, we'd be looking at each other's paper, I'd be like, why are we doing the same thing? Surely I should be doing something more.

17:20You know, we had a great relationship, me and Laura, but yeah, I was asking questions the whole time. I don't think I was easy to deal with. I can almost feel it as you're saying it and I'm not a patient person, so it's my worst nightmare to have that level of, I mean, I've had it in sort of other areas of my life, whether it be with my kids or whatever level of patience I have to cultivate. It's so hard. It's a really hard thing to do. What do you think that extremely slow and arduous process has taught you about yourself? That was the main thing I learned about myself was I actually could do it because I'm not, you know, it sounds silly.

17:59But at one point I thought, I don't know if I'm capable of doing this. I don't know if I want to, you know, I don't know if I'm going to be motivated enough to stick to everything I need to do. It's hard to commit to something that wholeheartedly. And I learned, I think when you're coming through as a kid, especially in football, you have to be so diligent. And, you know, I'm picking up the cones. I'm doing everything I can be to make a mark on my team in any way, shape or form, you know. and it was the first time I felt like I had to prove myself again but more to me this time and I did learn that I can be patient because ultimately I did I might have moaned about it every single second but I did what I was meant to do and I just, I don't know, I saw a strength to myself that I just hadn't seen in a long time and I think, like I say before I did my ACL I wasn't in the greatest place with everything you know, life had just changed post-Euros and I wasn't, when you say about choices, I had to make so many choices where I was like, I'm going to meet this head on or I'm going to deal with this or I'm going to step back from this.

19:09And it was the first time I felt like a real adult. And I've said this before, like, I was on my own, so I'm living at home on my own. I'm making every single choice every single day for me on my own. You know, no one's getting me up out of bed in the morning and saying, you've got to do this today. I kind of separate from my family a little bit just so that I didn't want to feel like I'd relied on anyone. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it, which is a hard thing as an adult. I think my mum struggled with that a lot at the start because I didn't... I did need her, but I didn't want to ask because I needed to do it for me.

19:44Otherwise, I felt like if somebody was always pulling me through it, what happens that day when somebody's not there? And then where do you go? Who's going to... What if I can't do it for myself? And I learnt that I could. Yeah. It was comforting in that way. We've all got so much more of everything than we could ever imagine within us. I think we constantly doubt ourselves, but actually when it comes to the crunch, we can go there and we can do it. And I think it's so interesting. I'm so fascinated with burnout because I've been there so many times. And it's a subject that I just find fascinating that again and again, so many of us don't take the signals from our body or our minds or the actions or the circumstances around us.

20:25we stop listening and we're not in tune with our intuition around things. Do you think as awful as it was having that time out and that injury, was it a bit of a wake up call for you to listen more to what you know is right for you in sport and in your life? 100%. I, as the health of a human being, like holistically, not just as an athlete, I appreciate that. I appreciate what your body goes through I've seen the strength of it as well so I'm like if I need it it will do its job as long as I choose to use it but I don't think I'll ever let myself get to and I make decisions now every day where I would have potentially made a different one before and I think the balance it's given me you can do this but it needs to be in moderation or just anything really but just having a real appreciation for my body and like ultimately we're not going to get to the next bit your brain's five steps ahead but you won't get there if your body can't take you so I think that yeah that's what I learned most about it to to really like respect your your body and give it what it needs because it does talk to you and we just ignore it we just constantly ignore it you get get headaches and you think oh I'm a bit tired or anything where I'm like no that's because you need to go to sleep or and actually actually doing it is a different thing yeah and the body starts shouting about it if you start ignoring it and that's when you're really in trouble it's a horrible thing and then mentally and emotionally you start acting in a way that is not is not you it's foreign to you so I think the version of myself now I love her so much more than And I did before just because she looks after herself.

22:16So then it all sort of comes back to you, pays back to you in a way. Looking after yourself is such a simple thing, but it's so hard. We can be so good at looking after everybody else, making sure we put everyone first. But actually, if we're not looking after ourselves, everything goes to shit. It's so, so important. As you touched on, you had such a roller coaster before your injury. I mean, let's talk about the highs of the Euros. We had Serena Vigman on the podcast not long ago, And it was so phenomenal to pick her brains around that time. You know, she had obviously a whole ton of stuff going on personally and professionally around that time.

22:49But the high that you brought, not only yourselves, but the whole country was just, I can't even talk about it without getting goosebumps. It was just the most phenomenal moment in sporting history. As the captain, how can you even summarise what that feeling was like for you? it's funny because I watch the documentary every like well it's been two years now and I watch it to relive it because I want to remember how it felt but the whole to do something I think sometimes you know things happen in in the world in life where you know that you something something big's happening but you only realize afterwards it's the first time and I'm so happy that I think we all felt like this as well that I knew what was happening as it was happening so okay okay the magnitude of it we weren't ever going to know that until beyond the tournament but in that moment the night before I knew exactly what what was going on and how much was changing and I think then winning it for us that's why I kind of referenced it at the time like actually winning was for us because everybody had had the time of their lives anyway and obviously it would mean so much so many people but as an athlete I thought the only thing that's missing literally is to win but to be just to be involved in this generation to be part of that I wouldn't swap it for the world oh it was just magic and what it did for women's football I don't think any of us can articulate or even properly understand but the shift was ginormous in terms of how everybody started taking it more seriously, which should have happened a long, long time ago, but also the opportunities it's giving for young girls to get into football.

24:36There still seems to be a big gap and that needs to be narrowed in terms of the access that boys have to the sport versus girls. I can see even in my kids' school, it's still boys do football, girls do netball. And there's kind of no discussion around it. Do you see that changing? I do. Yeah, I do. I think it's a generational thing. I think the generation of today and the parents of the children in school today, I think are on board with, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if the girls were playing football and you know, you get your list from school at the start of the year and the girls got to have football boots like that, that shouldn't be, shouldn't be a shock.

25:14I think the, it's those old school views and those typical, and it's, it's women. It's not, you know, it's not just like women in sport, it's women in general. And I think that's the bit that we still until those views change and you see what's going on in the world like this there's crazy opinions to me because I that's not the way I see it but I do see it changing yeah and I think the the influx like we the thing that we were concerned with was how sustainable is it going to be so obviously everything went like boom in women's football how sustainable was it going to be was the interest still going to be there and I think now we're seeing that it is and that is the truth um so then as long as it stays there then I think there's no there's no limit to to participation and you know making it equal across across the country I mean it must feel like an added pressure in a sense because you guys know that when you win a big tournament like that there is more visibility so things will change it adds almost another layer that the men's football team don't have to consider they don't have to do it's not it's not like life or death of the sport for them if they win or lose whereas for the women's team for you to as you say keep that momentum going you need to be top of your game that feels like a responsibility that's just imbalanced oh one 100 the social sort of element to our game and the responsibility that we have to our game is crazy and we go into a tournament we set our goals and we'll include like the legacy piece and what impact do we want to have on the next generation the boys wouldn't need to do that in terms of like you say the survival of their sport yeah I don't know I find it I think it's great because it makes us and women's sports so like pure and authentic and I think that's why people connect to us a lot more because ultimately we are fighting for them as well which is a choice you know like the team still has to decide that that's what they're going to do but yeah winning and we knew the impact that it was going to have.

27:17So then that's how we put in, what do we want to do with it, for example? I mean, it is extraordinary. When we were talking to Serena, I was still struck by, I guess, the disparity in the perception of the game and looking at the men's team and the women's team as two separate entities. For example, there would absolutely be some sort of uproar if Serena was ever to manage the men's team, but the reverse of that would be totally unquestioned. And it's those sort of nuanced perception pieces that I think we're still not looking at properly. Like she could absolutely, not that we want her to, but she could absolutely manage any men's football team at the highest level.

28:04But that sort of, the perception around it is still drastically warped. Yeah, 100%. there's a, everyone always talks about, like, I don't ever want, I've said this before, like, I don't want people to be surprised and I don't want girls to be surprised when I say I'm a footballer. But there is still an element of surprise because typically it's not a female role. And especially then the hierarchy of that, like you say, with a female manager, the dynamics of it. But then that's why I say, I think it bleeds so much into society. Why, why is there a question over a female and it's the same in the workplace you know my mum's had it at work it's to have a female managing men why is that so why is that so crazy but it is still because it's just the way we've been told the world should be for so long and conditioned to believe so because of the people in power and the way they've stayed in power and I think the football is the the best example of it because everybody watches it and it's but even going to a stadium if you're a woman and you go on your own to watch an Arsenal game, people, you know, that would be a shocking thing to men.

29:14Why? Like, you know, my uncle can go to a game on his own, no stress, but if my mum goes, the amount of people that would talk to her or question her or just like, are you okay? Like she's looking for directions or something, you know, like what's the difference? Mad. Yeah. And also that's something that's been heavily noted, especially over the Euros, was that the atmosphere in the stadiums was so drastically different to a men's game. And I'm still wary of my husband taking my kids to a men's football game because I know that they're going to be dropping the C-bomb and there's just going to be a whole lot of swearing.

29:51And they've had a few swears around the house, but it's like on a level that is kind of a bit too intense. Whereas so many of my friends took their kids to the, or still do take them to women's football games or went to the Euros and had such an amazing experience of it being really unifying and everybody being there for one reason, to just totally enjoy the game. That is, I mean, a beautiful positive that women's football has brought to the forefront. Without a doubt. I think the feel in the stadium, like you say, is safe. Yeah. It's a safe environment. And maybe that comes from, to be totally honest, the fact that some of the people or most of the people that are coming feel like they don't have a place somewhere else.

30:35So they have this experience, they have this experience of being an outsider or, you know, sticking out like a sore thumb in a different environment to come into our environment and feel like they own it and feel like they have a place to belong. I would be very disappointed. Like it would really upset me if I heard that we were being, our game had become exclusive in a way to anyone wanting to come and watch because the people that come and watch know how. I can guarantee almost every single person that comes to watch our games has felt like they didn't belong in a different place, which I think is where the safe environment comes from.

31:12What a beautiful thing. Oh, it's lovely. It's amazing. And I'm proud of it. I'm really proud of it. It is a welcoming place. Anybody can come to watch us to get involved with the journey, so to speak. It's amazing. Yeah. I don't know if the culture is the same and I'd love to see a bit more like, I don't want C-bombs, but I want passion and I want like real energy towards the result. Or I think we'll see that develop as right now. I think you have a lot of women's football fans less so than I support this team. But I think that's what gives it the family feel. And I would never, if anybody ever asked me about coming to a women's game, I would never discourage them because I would have full faith that they'd have a nice time.

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33:49I mean, let's talk about the other side of a massive high, like winning the Euros. We know historically, whether it's someone coming off stage after a big tour, doing something in theatre, winning a big prize, being at the Olympics, there has to be the other side of the coin to that extreme euphoria. It's otherworldly. It's not a common feeling that many people will experience to that degree. yeah was there a big slump at the other end how do you deal with that after that big high what's on the other side of it I was lucky enough to go to the Olympics in 2021 and the I'd heard about this like massive sort of fall off when you get home and uh they call it something I can't remember but I'd we'd prepared for it then and I didn't do it properly and when I came back from the Olympics I was I could only spend time with people that had been there or you know like I was really really struggling to reintegrate myself back into society so when this one came around I was like I need I need to put things in place to be ready for the end of this regardless of how it goes but I think the thing for me was as soon as that moment happened it's a really scary realization to know that you're probably never going to feel like that again and you in my head I go straight to well I've got play again in in two and a half weeks I go back to football like I have to start, just start all over again as if it never happened.

35:17And I struggled massively with that just in terms of motivation. And like, if you think that moment came off the back of 25 years of work, if you really think about it and you want to appreciate the journey, everything I'd done in my whole life had led to that. And then I thought, well, no, I've just got to start again. Or, you know, how do you sort of manoeuvre through that? which was scary to me and a lot of the girls shared that sentiment as well because we all spoke about it like what is ever going to feel the same as that moment and we're still only, you know, we're 20s so it's a scary thought and I struggled with that a lot because then nothing quite hit anything I did didn't hit how it was meant to hit because I'd had this massive euphoric moment where, yeah, it just sort of blew everything else out of the water Have you made peace with that now?

36:10because it's not something you can change. Like it's a beautiful, amazing thing that happened, but you might not get that feeling again. You might. I mean, even if you were to win the Euros again next year, it might not feel as sweet as the first time you've done it. So there's no guarantee with any of it. And I guess that for all of us is life in whatever capacity. Once we've had a great moment or even just general happiness and we're scared when it goes, what now? you know can you make peace with the fact that that might have been professionally because I'm sure there's many milestones elsewhere but professionally that might have been the greatest moment you'll experience if it is then the way I look at it now is I'm so lucky to have had that and anything else will be a bonus like I think I've had the moment that I'll speak about when I'm 142 lying on my deathbed you know like I think that would be the one that I talk about because it was the first it was Wembley it was home it was everything I'm okay with with it because I look when I look back now I just think of of how amazing it was and then I think how lucky I was to have been there because I also missing out on the World Cup I then realized to even be healthy and fit enough to attend the Euros and to be in that squad was the biggest blessing of it or just to even be there, you know, then you put on top of everything else, the moments and lifting the trophy and all these different things.

37:41But to actually just be there was something I shouldn't take for granted. So I think that's why I'm OK with it now. How do you integrate back into the mundane? Because all through a tournament like that, you've got the sort of exhilaration of playing. You've got the adoration. You've got the cheering fans, that roaring noise. that I can't even imagine how loud and incredible that is in a final. You've got, like you say, the moment where you're holding up the cup and just that pure euphoria. How do you deal with, like, I've got to go to the supermarket? I've got to, like, call my nan? Like, all the stuff that is just everyday stuff, did that feel like you're plodding through it?

38:26What was that like? I think I'm really lucky. So I have a very unique circumstance, I think, Especially in women's football, if you look at all of my teammates, and I mean all of them at Arsenal, everyone's left home. Well, bar one, Lota. Everyone else left home at 16, maybe even earlier, to go and chase this dream, live away from their family. Their version of normal life is football, whereas my version of... Football is an extension, it's like an add-on to my life because I live at home. I live 45 minutes away from all of my family. I've got all my friends since I was five, 12, you know, like all the stages of my life, everything is still stuck together.

39:11And I know how lucky I am to have that. So to reintegrate into normal life was, I think, easier for me, which again, when you know you have it easier than the person next to you, it makes you like, you're not going to complain, you're just going to get on with it. However, the change, my normal life had then changed. So when I walked into the supermarket I was somebody different in their eyes and everybody else's eyes I was a different person which annoyed me because I struggled with the interactions I was having with people because I just wanted to live my normal life that's I actually was so excited to the first thing I did when I got home was I went on a pub crawl through my town with I just text like my family and said I'm going I'm starting here and I'm ending here hopefully if you want to come Who knows?

39:58Yeah, if I make it that far. And I wanted to do normal things. I wanted to walk down to the shop. I wanted, you know, driving home, text my mum, do you need anything from the shops or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Go and get fish and chips on a Friday night. All the things that you can do post-tournament because you've got this, like, grace period. But, yeah, everyone looked at me differently and I hated it, which made living my normal life a lot more difficult, I think. I mean, that is a side of it that you can't control, is the fame element, how other people perceive you. Did you feel a shift in how people that you'd known for a long time were treating you?

40:35Old school friends, family? Because that can be even more disconcerting. Yeah, that's the one that then makes you feel... Everybody else, you know, ultimately I don't care. If I don't know you, I would... You know, obviously I love feedback. I love it when people tell you what they think of you in a way. But ultimately I can take that opinion and leave it if I don't want it. When it comes to family, I think I'm blessed, like my immediate family, but the extension of that, you don't really notice subtle changes, but the, oh, do you mind if I, can I have, you know, like all those conversations start to come in or hello, how are you?

41:14I'm thinking, well, we're not really like that. We're just the type of friends that when we see each other, we have a great time. But now you're texting me, you know, all these little things, it just changes. and I understand, I understand from everybody's perspective but yeah, the way, also the grace I don't like the leeway that you get from people once you're successful I was speaking to my family about this so if I did something wrong the likelihood of them holding me to account or it's gone, like the likelihood of that is so low because actually I offer something you know, maybe it's a ticket to a game or you know, just little things Or even just knowing you, people having that connection.

41:56I think it can be that simple. And it is really confusing. Because you don't feel like you've changed inside. And that's the frustration is that you're just you. Yeah, and the circumstances didn't change. You know, it's not like we won the lottery and our whole lives changed. Like I say, we had two and a half weeks before we just went back and started again. In exactly the same circumstances that we were before. So I really haven't changed and nothing about my life has changed. but felt like the walls were coming in a little bit, I think. Yeah, it's a really tricky one, on top of the fact that you've got to focus on your actual job and deal with that.

42:33I mean, your first game back with Arsenal after the summer will be September. Are you feeling physically, mentally in great shape? I can't wait. I did a run the other day, because obviously I'm in my off-season and started training again, and I had the worst stitch ever, like ever, and I thought this is fantastic. Like I've not let my body rest to a point of, yeah, I didn't get an off-season last year, I was rehabbing the whole time. So I've let myself get to a point of being like slightly unfit, hopefully for only like a couple of weeks, but I can't wait to just be involved. Like I haven't started a season healthy and fresh for God knows how long, three, four years.

43:16So I can't wait. And the fact that now we're playing at the Emirates every game, it's an occasion every time we play football now and I love that it gives me it excites me and like you say you're not going to take any of that for granted or be complacent because you know what the other option can be with injury and time out so what a beautiful place to be in on Women's Health magazine you talked about endometriosis and I think this again and talking about the menstrual cycle is such an important conversation within the sporting context We had Molly McCann on not long ago. She talked all about this leading up to a fight day and how your worst nightmare is being on your period.

43:58I can only imagine, especially. On that day. I mean, I dread it even if I've just got to sit down and have a chat with someone like this. I think, oh, I don't want to be on my period. I'm going to feel all headachy and bloated and just a bit paranoid and more aware of my body. It's just such a pain for all of us that we have to do this every single month. But having endometriosis is a whole other kettle of fish. So for anyone that doesn't know much about that, what might that mean for you during your menstrual cycle? The main change that I like, you know, pain, basically, like every symptom that you'd normally get in your period is maybe a bit more heightened.

44:39That's the less of it. But anything like your blood flow, your energy levels. I really struggle with lightheadedness and just feeling like I'm just going to pass out, maybe from pain or cramps or whatever it is. But I think they're the main, the day-to-day that sometimes you bat away. So before I knew I had endometriosis, I'm just like, that was a bad period, when I look back at the week. Whereas now I know I prepare for it, but I also am obviously super tuned in to, like no that's that's not an acceptable level of pain like you need to need to help yourself there a little bit because I grew up you know my mum's great she's like you go and play sport it'll make you feel better because it's the least thing you want to do but and you get to a point you're like no I can't really run this off and now I will have days on my first day of my period where I can't I can't move you know like ultimately I'm I'm sort of like slightly I only realize when I go to bed and I've been sort of bent over the whole day.

45:42So what do you do if you've got a game? So if I know, so during the Euros especially, I had a big chat with our doctor and I was taking tablets before, so like three, four days before to like prepare my body so that I had like a lining of painkillers basically to deal with whatever came in and then sort of, yeah, just essentially ride it out but with the best way possible of, do I drink a bit more of this or anti-inflammatory stuff, smoothies, et cetera, et cetera, and just try and prepare. But ultimately, there are days when it's just shit. It comes on the day and you think, right, what do I do now kind of thing.

46:24But it's not nice, you're playing in white shorts. I mean, it's the worst. The colour white can fuck right off when you're on your period. I don't want to be anywhere near it. You're not wrong. It's just, I just want black. I want to dress in black and hide from the world. And I think whenever I've talked about the menstrual cycle in the context of sport, it really makes me feel alert to the fact that in every way in society, we do not honour the menstrual cycle at all. And it's half the population going through it for a large chunk of their lives. And we just pretend it's not happening. We don't talk about it.

47:03We don't have any leeway for it. it's just not a consideration. And I do think it is that cliche thing of if, you know, women had much more power in the world, or there was that equality between men and women's power in the world, this would be like a, we would be seriously looking at this. You'd have one pill that you could take that would just like take away every symptom and or something, you know, something. There would be something going on. But it's just like crack on. And also in silence. And I think I really realised that I was on a photo shoot a few months ago and I came my period and it was just not great and I was like in these skimpy outfits and I was like this is nightmare and I was almost I was in the toilet and I almost went into a place of shame like I can't tell anyone this is so mortifying and I was like I refuse to be embarrassed to talk about this out loud yeah and I've marched in and said to the it was a male stylist but I just said look mate I've come my period you need to help me out here I thought I'm not going to be silenced and like forced into not talking about it.

48:01So I think it's amazing that you're using your platform to talk about this. It's so important. It's 100%. There's two things that always make me laugh. In football, you know, you do that thing, like if we went out to a bar and I went to the toilet, I come back and say, oh, have you got a tampon? I need a tampon, whatever. We've all been there with a mate. Why they're not in toilets, PS, but that's a whole other fucking thing, yeah. And then when you give it to me, I slip it up my sleeve. Yes. And I walk through the bar and I go to the toilet, all secret, like even though it's very, I've just come and gone back.

48:28so it's very obvious anyway. See, for that or she's doing drugs so let's hope it's a tampon. Let's hope it's a tampon. In football, it's getting launched across the room. It doesn't matter if it's men, women, you know, like, I'm like, anyone, anyone got a tampon? You know, everyone's, because there's no, because you can't, you can't be shameful in that setting but then there's another thing that always makes me laugh. If you said to a man, you can use it as an excuse because they're so awkward about it as well because, you know, because we make it awkward, we're shameful so if I really need, you know, at school, if I said to one of my teachers, so I've just come on my period he's like go to the toilet do whatever you need don't tell me about it go home if you want they would rather because it's just such a taboo but why?

49:12but why? like the up the sleeve thing I can't tell you how many times I've done it and I sort of put my hand in my handbag so suspiciously slot it up there pin my arm to my body and sort of shuffle to the what are we doing? You can spot it a mile off. Next time, I'm going to think of you. That's a nice thought when I'm on a period. And I'm going to get a tampon. I'm going to walk across the room with it aloft and just go, hey, guys. I'm just going to the toilet. I just put my tampon in. What a joke. Yeah. What a joke. But I love that. I just love that you're bringing that into the conversation.

49:43For young girls who are getting into sport, you know, when I'm watching the Olympics, I'm like, how are these gymnasts doing it? It's incredible. How are the swimmers? How are they doing it? Yeah. The anxiety that it gives me watching for them is... And it's not mentioned. It's like, oh, and in lane four, blah, blah, is on a period. We should be talking about this shit. They might have an unfair disadvantage because they're on the period right now as they're swimming in lane four, by the way. It's wild. I also want to talk about your books because this has become a real big thing for you. And I know that during your time out when you were injured, you learned to play the piano, PS.

50:16Amazing thing to have done. Like that's one of those pipe dreams where you go, I'm going to learn Spanish next year and it never happens. you learn to play the piano so playing the piano and writing seem to be two really nice side outlets for you, what are you getting from both of those things? Playing the piano came from a place of boredom, like I was so in this did I mention that ACL recovery is really boring I got to a point where I was literally tearing my hair out I was like I need to do something, like I've got too much energy and I need to use it and that came from me, like you say, you think what can I add to myself in this time I've been gifted time, essentially.

50:53What can I do? So I thought, let me just... I've always wanted to play a musical instrument. It's something I can do that doesn't affect my performance. I'm just sat at home. It's not like I'm active. So that was for me. And writing the books, I see it as... If I was a kid, there wasn't books like that for me to read. Specifically about... It's not about football. It's a children's book that's just fun, adventure, and a little bit of mystery and problem solving. But ultimately, putting a female footballer on the front cover of a children's book, I think is powerful for the next generation. So I see it as an extension of my role as a footballer.

51:31But also I write it with my cousin and the opportunities. There's things that have come along, you know, that really have changed like our life as a family. And this is one of them. And for her to... I remember having the initial conversation. I said, I'll only do it if my cousin writes it. so wonderful and you just put one of them like I'm bringing me mate and everyone's like oh god and she turned out to be really really good it's so nice I mean beautiful for your relationship as cousins but also for young girls to pick up this book and young boys we should all be reading fiction with a it's just normal it should just be it's on the shelf and then they don't see any difference it's only us that tell them that that's abnormal I love it I love it was your third book this is the third third book it's amazing it's so good it's so good well I wish you all the best for the books and all the best for September and the Euros next summer and it's just been a joy talking to you thank you so much Leah oh my god Leah I had waited so long to have that chat to do that interview to get you on Happy Place and it did not disappoint what an incredibly inspiring I know that's an overused word but I really bloody mean it inspiring woman you are if you love that chat I definitely recommend listening to England manager Serena Vigman on Happy Place.

52:49She came on Happy Place a while back and it was so brilliant. One honour to have her on. And MMA fighter Molly McCann. She was another brilliant, brilliant woman on our podcast. It was an episode with elements of an athlete's mindset that we can all learn from. We talked about periods with her as well actually. It was really interesting. Now before I let you go, let me tell you about our Happy Place book club pick for October. we're going to be reading oh my god all fours I'm around in July this is one of the best books I've ever read I couldn't put it down I used to sort of start falling asleep after about an hour of reading it and desperately trying to keep my eyes open because I go to bed really early but I wanted to keep on reading it is incredible I don't want to give too much away but if you are actually I'm not even going to say if you're a woman in your 40s you're going to love it I think anyone would love it.

53:43Do you know why? Because it is so unfiltered. Miranda July has written a book, seemingly without giving a toss what anyone thinks, and that is so rare. And I am so inspired by it. I can't wait for you to read it. Head to our happy place book club on Instagram to join in with all the reading and all the chat, or it's going to be a good one. And for now, a massive thank you again to Leah, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, I completely adore you.

54:21so

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