LeAnn Rimes: Childhood fame, saying no, and crying

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the place where we can explore new avenues that might just lead to more joy. Today, I'm chatting to Leanne Rimes. Recently, I felt pretty consistent with just knowing that there's all these different emotions floating around. I can be sad, but it doesn't drag me under. And that's where I feel like I have more joy that's accessible to me. it kind of gives me this balance of knowing I have something to touch upon that I can go to and not get so like drawn back into that sad state. So sadness can be there, it can pop up, but it's not like it hangs around all the time as it used to.

0:41Leanne is an international multi-platinum selling singer and songwriter. Let me give you a few stats because they are incredibly impressive. At 14, she won Best New Artist, making her the youngest solo artist to take home a Grammy Award. And at 15, she became the first country artist to win Artist of the Year at the Billboard Music Awards. Of the 63, 63 singles that she's released throughout her career, How Do I Live still holds the record as Billboard's Hot 100 all-time number one hit by a female artist. And Leanne is not slowing down. She's announced a special UK gig at the O2 in London next May, which, oh my gosh, I can only imagine is going to be a really magical night revisiting her whole musical career.

1:33This chat with Leanne was so interesting because like me, she started working when she was a teenager and we had some really similar thoughts about feeling that we always had to be the polite good girl. And it sounds like Leanne's been doing a brilliant job in adulthood of learning that A, it's okay to say no sometimes, but B, to prioritise finding the joy and fun in life too. I love this chat and I really hope you enjoy getting to know Leanne as much as I did.

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4:07All right, here we go. This is the show.

4:32Leanne, thank you for being on Happy Place, the podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's so nice to, I'm going to say meet you because I don't think I have met you before. I don't think we've met now. Which is absurd because we both started out in the 90s in similar worlds and we haven't crossed paths. This is such a lovely moment. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Very excited to talk to you today. You're in the UK, but you're coming back to the UK next year for your biggest UK show to date at the O2. I know, we're playing the O2. I'm so excited. It's such an iconic venue. I was there the first year for C2C and played there and like 17 ,000 people felt like my living room.

5:08So we're hoping to recreate that intimacy. I feel like my shows are super intimate and no matter how big the place is, I just love kind of making people feel warm and fuzzy and like they're, you know, like in my living room, basically. Why do you think you're able to do that? Do you think it's the lyrics? Because, you know, a lot of your lyrics are incredibly personal. Maybe I guess everyone's got their own story to each song. Do you think that helps kind of bring everything into a more intimate setting? Yeah, I think so. I mean, in the past decade for me, especially writing a lot of my own material, I feel like people have really gotten to know me, you know.

5:45And yeah, I feel like everything is so personal. And I feel like I've also I feel like my shows and anything that I do is kind of like a place to help people feel and go to those places they don't normally go. And when I think of myself, I think of myself as someone that is a facilitator of that and not really a singer. That music is just one outlet to be able to do that. So I'm super open and I've always been that way on stage and even more so in the past decade. And I think it's just how I walk out and who I am on stage allows people to kind of meet me in that place. It's so lovely, isn't it?

6:19Because, I mean, obviously many people who have listened to your music or perhaps seen you sing live, you can make people cry. I love doing that, by the way. It's a great skill. I make myself cry along the way. I'm sure you do. I do. I think many of us are quite repressed in that way. We don't allow ourselves to just wail and weep. But, you know, your music can take people there. It brings it out of people for sure, which I love. And it brings it out of me too. I mean, it's so healing to be able to do what I do and especially these last several records of mine. And, you know, as I've written my own material, like just to be able to communicate what's going on in my world because I know I'm not the only one experiencing these feelings and to meet people there is so much more than just music.

7:03It's a real, like, emotional, physical, like, experience. It's so good to have a cry. Yeah, it is. It's really good. I do it all the time. Yeah. I haven't done it recently and I feel like there's some there. There's some tears there. Do they need to come up? Should I start singing now? Maybe not right now. Maybe at the end we can have a group cry together. But I think, yeah, we forget we're holding so much in. We're walking around holding in things from the past and feelings or something someone said to us that day. And we don't just give ourselves a time to just have a really jolly good cry. It's so good for the soul.

7:34Absolutely. It's amazing what the body holds. Like even today, I've been running around doing a ton of interviews and I had like an hour break and I'm like, oh, my God, my head hurts. My body aches. Like you just don't realize, even though I'm having fun, it's like how much stress is in the body. And then you lay down for a second and you're like, oh, yeah, I need to take a deep breath. Like I'm not breathing right now. You forget it. This is what I do. I hold my breath. I think especially when you speak publicly and you're doing interviews. Yes. You do have to build a bit of a fortress around yourself to walk into that space.

8:06Because, you know, you might get asked something personal or you move into an area where you might be feeling like, well, I'm actually exploring those thoughts and feelings as I speak out loud. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, I think it's a tricky thing to do. And you sort of forget how much you are maybe holding your breath or tensing your muscles. and that we're all doing this all day long, whether we're nervous to socialize or we're, you know, going through something challenging, that we are physically holding on to all this stuff. Yeah, it's really been interesting for me because I grew up, you know, in front of the public eye.

8:37And so I had to realize how much I actually, like, armor myself when I'm out in the world because there's constantly something or someone coming at me. And over these past few years, I've realized, like, how much stress I hold in my body just, like, moving in the world because I built, like you said, this kind of fortress around myself. And I had to, I constantly am reminding myself, like life is like, life can be easy and I can be at ease because from the time I was a child, I was, you know, built up these kind of walls. So yeah, life is my friend. Yeah. Life is my friend. You've got to remind yourself of this stuff.

9:15Yeah, I do. Because I think especially when you're in the public eye. Yeah, I mean, everyone does it. Yeah, or even if you've had some bad news in the past, maybe the phone ringing triggers that sort of response. Absolutely, yeah. Now, I've certainly had that where you receive bad news on the phone or there's something, a bit of bad news that lands in your lap. And if it's big enough to rock your world at that time, you actually do then start to walk around waiting for the next thing. And it's not a nice feeling. And I think you do have to possibly on a daily basis remind yourself everything's OK.

9:47It's like you say, life's my friend. It's all okay. And it ebbs and flows. Like, you know, nothing's ever going to be bad forever and nothing's ever going to be great forever. So it's like, you know, you're right. You can't sit around waiting for the other, you know, shoe to drop. And that's, I've spent a lot of my life doing that. And I totally relate to that. And now I know how resilient I am. And I know that I can pretty much handle anything. And it doesn't feel good sometimes, but I know that I will come back from it. You don't seem, you know, obviously you've been through situations that have taken you to the place where you do feel on edge about what someone's going to say or what news is going to come out about you.

10:27But talking to you now and watching various interviews of you over the years, you don't seem to have built up a sort of a tough shell. You're not guarded. You seem still, you've got the ability to be very open and to talk very naturally about things. How do you think you've navigated that? You know what? I think learning how to say no. And even if someone asked me a question I don't want to answer, you know, saying I'm not comfortable with that, like learning that it's OK to actually disappoint someone or just to say no to someone in this business, especially as a child. You know, I wasn't taught to say no.

11:03I was like everything was yes. And you do everything everyone asks because you want people to like you. and now I'm like I can I can still be kind and say I'm not comfortable with that you know so and sometimes sometimes it's hard like sometimes I have to like override that switch because you know you're just getting this pattern of going yes I'll just please you and do everything you want me to do and I think when I started just giving myself permission to just politely say no then I could be more open and you know more a little less guarded for sure. And do you still worry about oh my god if I say no will they dislike me do you worry about that not really anymore no it's I do yeah you do yeah I mean it's sometimes I sometimes I'll walk away from situations knowing I've disappointed someone I kind of feel like oh I got a guilt of disappointing someone else but no I I can't I don't know I can't think about that because ultimately at the end of the day if I'm doing things that I don't really want to do I'm going to dislike myself and living with that is a lot more challenging than living with disappointing someone else yeah and it's a hard lesson to learn because you've got to actually put it into practice you do experience it and white knuckle it and and as much as I've put it into practice like I said sometimes I I don't practice it and sometimes I give into whatever that thing is someone wants me to do and it's like oh okay going let let's let's repattern that let's go back to to saying no when I when I mean And I guess it also depends on how you're feeling that day.

12:30Some days you are, we all naturally just feel a bit more resilient or comfortable. And more adult. You know what I mean? Sometimes we're like in our adult woman 41 self. And then sometimes I feel like I can revert back to being 15 at times. So you talk about those triggers in life and you never know what it is that triggers you. But sometimes you're just unconscious of it and kind of revert back to your shell a little bit. Yeah. I'm so fascinated in that one. I was talking to a friend just literally at the weekend about some days that you do, you know, you go and go to a social event and you feel like, yeah, I'm 42.

13:04I'm 42. I'm 42. I'm walking around. Some days you literally, I go back to being maybe 22, like a 20 year regression. And I'm like, why have I shown up at the age of 22 today? And I sort of seemingly can't function outside of that age bracket for it could be an hour or it could be a whole day. It might depend on who I'm interacting with or if I feel safe in the situation or whatever. But it's a really strange thing. I don't think it gets talked about enough that most of us are walking around feeling like this. But we assume everyone else is their age. Their best self. Yeah, their best self at the sort of mature age they're at.

13:42But it's not the case. No. And sometimes, I mean, for me, I know, like, if I'm feeling really, like, gross in my body or feel like I'm feel bloated or I don't feel pretty that day or I feel like, you know, you can just start to feel. You can just start to make yourself feel smaller just because of some insecurities that might be popping up. And other times I'm like, yeah, I'm like the queen today. So it really does depend on the day. But yeah, I mean, we can all revert back to being those little wounded children. And it happens with everyone. There's not a single person that that doesn't happen to.

14:16I agree. I mean, you obviously had an exceptionally extraordinary childhood starting in the industry so, so young. I mean, a young teenager. And it is a lot to take on. Not only just the speed, the pace that you're working at is extraordinary at that age. Also, you're surrounded exclusively by adults. You don't have that one on one kid interaction that you would in a normal childhood. The pressure, the exterior commentary that's pretty relentless when you're globally famous. That's probably the hardest part is like there's so many voices, so many opinions and you don't even know who you are yet.

14:54But it took me, I don't know, till my 30s to really figure out who am I, like without anybody else's opinion. And I think these last like maybe four or five years, I really started to live from the inside out instead of outside in. So it's like, OK, well, what makes me happy and what lights me up? And even down to, you know, when I do a set list for stage, it's like, well, what do I want to sing tonight? And then I invite people into that space. It's not about like, what do people want to hear? because it's, I know if I'm filling myself up, I give out like this different experience than almost feeling like a robot in a lot of ways.

15:34And, you know, it's like, I have spent so much of my life entertaining people. It's like, well, I need to entertain myself too. Like I need, it needs to be fun for me at the same time because it can feel really empty otherwise. It always feels like there's so much energy going out and like not enough input filling you up. So I've really had to learn. There has to be a balance there for sure. I mean, obviously you're doing something that you love and it's a natural talent, but it's something that you've honed and something that you love sharing with everybody. But do you look back at your childhood specifically and think, I wish it had been different.

16:11I wish I'd had a more sort of normal childhood. Maybe at times. Yeah, I definitely do. But I don't know. It is what it is. Like, this is my life. And so there's so many things about who I am that the kind of childhood that I had, it influenced so much of who I am today. And I like a lot of those pieces. So I wouldn't say that I necessarily wish it would have been different, although there are times when I definitely wish I would have been around kids more, been able to just play more. My life was very much about business and working. And I think I had to learn how to play as I got older, like allow myself to have that that fun because my life was very kind of serious and business oriented.

17:01and also like you said you want to please people around you whether that's I'm imagining at the time the record label that you're working with or the audience that you're performing in front of and I think starting work as a teenager myself I've certainly well I'm still trying to unlearn a lot of the stuff that was really imprinted on me then that you've got to be a good girl you've got to show up you've got to know your lines you've got to do the right thing you've got to stand on the mark and then you've got to, you know, represent yourself outside of the TV studio, whatever it might be. That good girl thing is a bitch.

17:35The good girl thing is so fucking awful. I hate it. And I'm still unlearning it now because I think I've got to do the right thing. I've got to be good. I've got to be good. And it stops you from messing up organically and it makes you beat yourself up when you go wrong. I think that for me personally has been the biggest one to unpick, starting work potentially too young. It stops you from taking risk also because you're afraid to fail. Yeah. I think as women in general, we are all unlearning the good girl. I mean, I've been through so much therapy in my life, but one of the things that keeps popping up, the narratives that pops up often is I'm bad.

18:13Like, you know, it's yeah, I'm bad. I'm bad. And my therapist is always looking at me going, what? Like, here we go again with this narrative of I'm bad, but it shows up in like all these different little areas of my life. And I think just as a woman in this world, you know, you go back to like the original sin, you know, of Adam and Eve. And it's like that narrative that started it all. And so I wrote the song called The Wild on my album God's Work. And it really is about undoing that narrative and, you know, stepping into the fullness of who we are as women. and, you know, saying no when we mean no, like saying and allowing ourselves that fullness of, you know, I am, I am feral.

18:55I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a woman who, you know, owns my sexuality and, and my good girl and everything else in between. And it doesn't have to be so one dimensional, you know, and, and that's, you know, how we've been taught is to come up in this world. And like you said, do the right thing and be the good girl. And there's nothing, there's nothing else outside of that except like slut and you know bitch and whatever else it may be I know everything else is derogatory we're sort of taught that you know you follow these simple steps and you are an acceptable female and you will be accepted on a societal level because you've got to show up looking a certain way acting a certain way suppressing anger all the other things that we know I mean making ourselves making our bodies small like making ourselves smaller in every way yep yeah I mean it's culturally it's a lot to unpick even outside of our own respective stories.

19:43It's culturally a huge thing for all of us to try and untangle from. It really is. And it's not easy. It's really not easy. No, but I think the more we talk and have conversations like this and women know that they're not alone in that war because I think we fight the war internally against ourselves and I think the more we talk about it that, you know, we don't fight it or we're able to unravel that a little bit for ourselves. Yeah, and just like, look at our humanness. Yeah. Like I have every time I do one of these podcasts, and we've done loads and loads of these, but I'll still sometimes internally be going in my head, you know, don't stumble, don't fuck up, remember where you're at or where you're going with it, because you want to be accepted.

20:23And it's like, no, I'm a human. There's going to be bits where I derail slightly or we go off on a weird tangent or it's not normal or acceptable or whatever, but it's still okay. And if we stop berating ourselves for every imperfect moment, it's wild what we're doing to ourselves. So true. I mean, like I was saying when I walked in, I'm like, please forgive me. I'm jet lagged. You might have to help me with words. And that's the thing. One thing I've learned is, like, show up in your humanness and, like, allow that to come forth as the first thing. Like, your authenticity and your humanness. I think if you just, like, lay it out there, then I've learned.

21:02And I mean, I think it was for me laying my life out there, who I am out there at one point became like a survival mechanism because I always felt like if people if they don't have anything on me, then they can't come at me. But then I realized I'm like, oh, this is just like this is just good being a good human, like living in my humanness as a woman and just being like, hey, I'm on my period today or I'm really tired or whatever it may be. Like just this is this is where you're meeting me. Yeah. And life becomes a whole hell of a lot easier that way. Yeah, I think you then drop the expectation on yourself.

21:36Because every day, your best is going to be slightly different. Totally. And that gives us all just a chance to have a sigh of relief. Like, it's okay. Not everybody has to be like, my worst phrase is living your best life. I'm just like, fuck off with living your best life. What is that? It's different every day. Yeah, yeah. It's different every damn day. Something that's really, I love you said phrases, because bettering myself has become like something that I don't love to say. It's like if I want to grow, if I'm in that – and I feel like we all kind of ebb and flow of like there's some stages in life where you're just kind of – you're idling and living.

22:08And then there's other stages where you're like really growing and expanding and you have to know that you kind of go back and forth between the two. And it's not constant growth all the time. But, you know, I think when we live in this kind of wellness, health-conscious world, it can get really toxic too because people are always like, how do I better myself? How do I get better? What am I, you know, it's, and that's exhausting too. I've been there. I've been there like reading every book and doing every, you know, breath work in this and that. And I love it. Like it's still a part of my life, but I'm not so obsessive about it because I'm accepting where I'm at now.

22:44Like now's okay. Yeah, I mean, I heard you talk about this and using wellness to shame yourself. And I think, you know, lots of us are doing that subconsciously. And it's interesting because this podcast and everything else that we're doing with Happy Place, we have a festival, we have a book imprint, we have an app. We have like lots of different resources and tools, a YouTube show. I'm so conscious that we have to keep this on the right side of wellness. And it can't become, I mean, it certainly won't become preachy for me because I don't fucking know anything. I'm just stumbling through trying to work it out and sharing stuff with people.

23:14But it's got to be on the right side because when it becomes another thing to add to a list of shit that you haven't done and that you start to then beat yourself around the head with, oh, my God, I haven't meditated today or whatever it might be, then it becomes the total counterproductive. It's your stressor all of a sudden. Yeah, absolutely. So you've got to stay on the right side of it. And I think it's important to talk about that and that, you know, there will be days where you just think, I don't want to do any of this. I just want to watch TV. And that's perfectly fine. We've got to be able to talk about wellness and not totally vilified.

23:45We've got to be able to talk about it sensibly and not get preachy about it and prescriptive about it, I think, as well. Yeah, I actually had a and do have a podcast called Holy Human. Oh, I see. It's gorgeous. Thank you. And I love doing it, but it's all been driven by my passion. Like, who do I want to talk to? Whose book am I actually reading? And it's never been about, like, I have to turn on a podcast all the time. And, you know, I've gone a year without doing it. I know it'll come back, but it's like all my time. So that's kind of how I like to live my life now is, you know, I feel like even in business, you know, it's constant, you know, content and constant this.

24:22Everything's constant. And it's just becomes the joy gets taken out of it. And yeah, I understand the business side of it, but there has to be like, there has to be a balance. There has to be joy. And for me, I really have to, I try not to let my life be driven by, like I said earlier, someone, you know, someone else's expectations. So I get it. And I, in fact, I've, I want to bring the podcast back, but I've been, I also have been toying with the idea of like, okay, where do I want to come at it from? Because like you're saying, you want to be on the right side of wellness. And it's like, I really want people when they're listening to it to understand that you don't have to do any of these things.

25:01These are just suggestions. And this is just like fun exploration and curiosity. And, you know, because there's so much of the other out there. and so um yeah i'm constantly just wanting people to not feel like they're bad i guess i'm so aware of it myself of how that narrative runs me and i'm really cognizant of wanting to not add to that narrative in any way you know no none of us none of us need that that's for sure we need to be able to just go easy on ourselves be gentle with ourselves and the joy aspect you've mentioned the word a couple of times now I think is extremely interesting. It's my new favourite word.

25:40It's a great word. It's a great word and I think something all of us wonder about a lot, what brings me joy? Where do I find it? What does it even mean to me? And I watched a really interesting YouTube video of you talking to a brain doctor about periods where you've had extreme lack of joy. I have absolutely had that as well but it was really interesting to see him connect the dots and I think he used the phrase you'd worn down your your joy center or something or dopamine yeah and it makes total sense if you're gigging from a very young age and you know to you that became the norm but to any regular person standing on a stage in front of thousands of people and having them react to what you're doing and for you to energetically feel that would be out of this world.

26:35Right. But when you're doing it so regularly and it's the norm and you're not necessarily getting that transaction or that feeling still, or maybe you get it and it peaks and then it drops off really quickly, that makes sense. You're going to wear down your dopamine center. Yeah. After a show, there is such a high of the show that there is a major come down. I can feel so tired the next morning. And then when I'm constantly working and on tour and then I have like six weeks off, those first couple weeks are rough. And I've had to learn how to find, you know, joy and enjoyment in the mundane, like just the everyday life.

27:12And, you know, I didn't, that part of my life wasn't developed so early on. So, you know, just being home and hanging out on the couch with my family and cooking or just being around the house like that, I was constantly looking for like, what's next. So I've gotten a lot better at being able to balance that for myself and actually finding just joy in everyday life yeah which is nice well I guess it's why we see so many musicians specifically moving into drink and drugs because you've had the highest high you can have on stage so then you're going well what what is next where do I find that that's the druggiest drug of all it really is it's such a high and um you know to have that high and that stimulation from such a young age yeah i was like what what's life like what's life outside of this so yeah it's uh it's definitely why you see so many musicians um go down very difficult you know drug like drugs and alcohol that kind of path for sure the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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30:20at what age did you start to contemplate finding your joy elsewhere where did you notice god I'm just not feeling great at the moment or you've just felt depressed when did that kick in um my my mom was really depressed as when I was a kid and so I kind of grew up around depression and I think it really ran in my family so I think I was probably dealing with it from a very young age. But not till, I don't know, maybe my mid thirties that I really start to be like, okay, there has to be, I have to be able to come home and my nervous system not be completely like on stun and be able to just sit on the couch and enjoy that.

31:04And it's, I mean, that's really taken me the last couple of years is probably the first time, you know, that I've actually been able to do that. And that's, that's been, you know, a lot of therapy and a lot of just understanding my nervous system and a lot of different like, homeopathic things. And just, I mean, it's, there's so many components that have gone into, you know, relaxing my nervous system. Yeah, sleep has been a big thing for me, like, you know, just just to be able to come home and unwind was, it was such a challenge. So these last couple of years, I feel like I've kind of gotten that under control a little bit more so where I'm where I can come home and actually decompress but yeah my the joy part of it you know I'm still learning what brings me joy but I know that it's there like I'm I'm I was mentioning to a friend recently I said you know I'm I I don't get sad a lot very often which is good like I usually would I love I love sad music anyway but like I would I'm so like everything was sad everything all the music I listened to was sad Everything was just I just kind of have this like little dark cloud hanging over my head.

32:13And it wasn't that I was just like super walking around depressed. It was just kind of like low grade, which is almost worse. Sometimes I feel it's like I'd rather be I'd rather know I'm like super depressed and be like laid out than just like a little bit depressed and a little sad. But recently I felt I felt pretty consistent with just, you know, knowing that like there's all these different emotions floating around. I can be sad, but it doesn't like drag me under. And that's where I feel like I have more joy that's accessible to me. And I feel like because I'm learning how to access that more often, it kind of gives me this balance of knowing I have something to touch upon that I can go to and not get so drawn back into that sad state.

33:02So sadness can be there. It can pop up, but it's not like it hangs around all the time as it used to. Yeah, there's room for it all. Yeah. There's room for it all. And it's interesting because you're using the word access, which is, you know, a really lovely word to use because it is in all of us. But I think we're taught by society, oh, it's over there. It's in the future or it's out there somewhere and you can attain it rather than access it. So I think that's a really lovely thing just to stumble upon naturally. Oh, yeah, it's in me. I just need to work out what sparks it and what brings it out of you.

33:32Yeah. And I've noticed, too, if I'm just really present within my day, if I'm one of the things that I do a lot is if a butterfly I was noticing the other day I was walking and a butterfly flew by and it brought a smile to my face and I actually paid attention to that. I was like, oh, a moment of joy. Like there's just it's not like we have to walk around like, oh, my God, life is amazing. Like all the time. It's just looking at looking for those moments when, you know, I'm feeling really crappy and it's like, oh, I had a really good meal or just like, you know, my friend made me laugh or whatever it is, you know, really kind of taking in those moments.

34:07So at the end of the day, you're like, oh, wait, life wasn't so bad. Like I might have felt crappy, but it was a pretty good day. so knowing that you've got the propensity to have that sort of melancholy feeling around what what is a definite no what do you know is not gonna serve you in terms of just feeling balanced and being able to access that joy oh um you know I have to be really careful about what I watch um yeah um I can easily when I watch films I'm one of those people that will watch a film and And then like you're in it. I feel like I'm totally in it. Same. And it will last with me for hours after.

34:49So I have to be really careful about what I watch. Same here. I was watching last night The Deepest Breath on Netflix. Have you seen it? Oh, my God. It's so good. It's about these free divers and they're exceptional. You're like, I can't breathe. First of all, I wasn't breathing. I literally was holding my breath. But then also sometimes they get towards the surface and they black out and they come up and their eyes are dead. And I was like, I'm out. I can't. I can't actually do this. I can watch funny. I can watch factual that is sort of educational but not too dark I can't watch violence I can't watch anything with drugs in or anything edgy I just can't I haven't got the capacity for it anymore a couple I was younger yeah now it's a no yeah I watch um my husband was on this show called CSI Miami and I went back and started watching some of the stuff that he did and um I haven't been married to him forever now and we both just kind of like don't watch what each other does but um I started to one day and it's like this crime show and I will literally fast forward through like the dead people I'm like no no so I love like the whole crime thing and I love the mystery of it but I'm like no dead people no dead people I can't do it but I think you get to know what your capacity is as you get older and maybe when I was younger watching it it was affecting me negatively but I had no yeah but you just know and on that note one thing that I was very interested in reading about you was again something that I've experienced completely similarly which is when you were younger you would walk onto stage completely fearless you would sing your heart out there would be a healthy dose of nerves but nothing that would hinder you and actually later down the line that started to become a problem and stage fright was something a new thing that you were having to deal with down the line yeah it definitely um it's definitely come into play And I think that was a time in my life where I felt like a lot of people were picking me apart in a lot of ways.

36:40And I felt like a lot of things were stacked against me. And so it was like, don't fuck it up because then they'll have something else to like, you know, add to the list of things that to stack against you. And so I honestly think that that's what caused it. And then once I started to unravel that, it became a lot easier. so I will get I'll get like body nerves but I won't get like these thoughts of like oh my god I'm going to mess this up or you know it's a different kind of it's more of an anticipation now than a nervousness Would it tip into panic ever? No it never tipped into panic for me because once I walked on to whatever I was doing or opened my mouth I was like okay this is it I'm in I'm all in so it just kind of you know I would flow from that moment but it's it was that it was the self-talk and like the fear of messing something up and not being quote-unquote good enough um up until that moment and then once it started it was like okay it's fine and then yeah I talk about exhaustion after because like all those emotions I'm like I'm so tired and you're trying to quieten that voice in your head the whole time just like shut up it's it is exhausting it is and you have to kind of honor that and go right how am I gonna treat myself well the next day emotionally and physically it's you know it's a whole process yeah around 30 you took yourself off to a rehabilitation center what did you learn from that experience how did that help you heal and get to the place that you are today where you're about to do this huge show at the OT where you're releasing new music and you're seemingly in a in a really good place yeah and by the way it's funny you just mentioned the too and I think of all the narratives like I remember before we announced it I'm like is anybody gonna come like I literally think to myself like oh my god this is like too big for me is anybody gonna come like I have all of those thoughts just like anybody would have about anything that they do that's like you know a big deal so I'm not exempt from that but I'm like okay this is just my this is just my narrative right now and I know that that's not true so you just kind of have to put yourself in check a bit.

38:49But yeah, no, I think checking myself in, I had never been alone ever in my life. There was constantly somebody around me. And so that was the first time I really spent time alone and I needed that. And it was just the beginning of my own, you know, kind of wellness self-exploration journey. That was definitely not the end all at all, But that was the beginning of it. So I'm grateful for that time. But that wasn't it was it wasn't what I think really started to kind of move me in the right direction. It was it was a stepping stone. But I feel like I actually when I found breathwork about two years later, that's what really like started to open me up and kind of break down some of those barriers and started to help heal the trauma.

39:37I needed something that was more somatic and you know just talking about things and rehashing things is it's great and there's there's a place for it but I think I needed something to really kind of internally like explore things for myself and breathwork was that for me yeah it's it's transformative I've done a ton of it and it is I mean it's bizarre what's happening to you physically when you go through you know especially you've got to obviously do it with the right practitioner and someone who can really facilitate that, you know, very, very deep physical as well as emotional healing. What needed to be healed?

40:16Was the trauma specifically to do with being famous at a young age and living that life? I mean, that was a huge part of it. But I think, you know, no, I mean, I had a really, I mean, compared to most, I had a great childhood, But I did have a I had a rough childhood, I think, with my parents, my mom being very depressed, my dad being very angry, them not getting along. I was an only child. I was kind of I was the good girl that was pleasing everybody. And and then growing up with the public eye and then going through a very public affair. And then I mean, there was just a lot. It was a lot. And it was always so much forward movement that I never had time to stop and process any of it.

40:56So I think there was just like 30 years of life there for me to try to start sifting through and emotionally and physically processing it because my little body and mind and soul is like holding on to everything. thing yeah we forget about the body bit in it we're just like oh what's all the stories I'm telling myself and the things I've experienced but like you say you know and that breathing can really get in on a cellular level to what you've been through and yeah get it out get rid of it and seemingly all of this therapy and all of the practices that you've tried and everything that you're willingly throwing yourself into has gotten you into a really great place you know we can even see it in you know I've heard you talk about your relationship with your parents now which over the years has been rocky your dad was your manager yeah my dad just texted me while I was over here randomly I'm like oh hi I'm in London yeah but you guys have you know have a great relationship now which I think is so encouraging for people that perhaps either don't have a good relationship with their parents now or haven't in childhood well I have a challenging relationship with my parents but it's a relationship but it's still there yes this is present um and yeah my my My stepdad actually just passed away and my mom is now alone.

42:12And so we're learning how to navigate, you know, the new our new dynamic. And yeah, I mean, it's possible. And it's it's also possible to still like I still have my own, you know, I have my boundaries with my parents. I know what I can how how and how much I can take and how I can deal with them for my own, you know, mental and physical well-being. And I can I give what I can. And, yeah, we all, you know, look, they were learning, too, as parents. Like, we all, our parents all screw us up at some point. And that's why I don't have children of my own. You've got stepkids. I have two stepkids that hopefully I haven't screwed up too much.

42:48And it brings stuff up. Like, I'm a stepmom and I've got kids as well. All of it, you know, I was a stepmom before I had my kids. Okay. Oh, wow. And I think that you just go, wow, okay, I see how hard this is. And I've thought a lot about, especially how much my mum did. And rather than focus on the things that might have been challenging, I've actually got deep appreciation for so much of it. And I think it does change your perspective. It does. How old are your kids? So we've got Honey, who's eight, Rex, who's 10, Lola's 18, Arthur's 21. Oh, wow. Yeah, we really do. Yeah, my step sons are now 20 and 16 and they were first two and six when they were in my life.

43:35Wow. Yeah, it's it has been amazing to help raise them. But, you know, it's I think I had this like I had this thought of like I have there's so much trauma in my lineage and so much trauma in my life. It's like I wasn't ready to kind of pass down with my own children, like, you know, through the womb. And I know how much gets passed down through the womb. So it's like, OK, I wasn't I wasn't ready yet. Now, at this point in my life, I think I would be totally ready for that. I just don't know if I want to. Yeah, we have two. We have two that are, you know, almost like completely grown. It's like any other look at each other and we see kids and like, oh, my God, they're so cute.

44:11We'd love to. And then like, do we really want to start over again? Yeah. You know, I think I'm for me, like, you know, we talked about not having a childhood. It's like I'm kind of I've been mothering myself for a really long time and and with my step sons. And I feel like I've had I feel like there's been a lot of mothering going on, even though I haven't ever had one of my own. Well, you're so right. I think, you know, this is something that you again stumble upon when you're doing any sort of work on yourself. Inventory is you've got to start parenting yourself. You have to, because especially when you're a grown ass adult and your parents aren't parenting, you've got to parent yourself through challenging times.

44:49And it's something that isn't really talked about or we're not really taught that at a certain age you're going to have to start parenting yourself and knowing how to get yourself through situations. It's a tricky one, that. It is a tricky one. And that's where, you know, you talk about being softer and kinder to yourself. It's like, you know, where your parents fell short. you know we have those from a very early age you know everybody who was around us from parents to society that those become our our deep embedded narratives and so it's like okay well where they fell short how can I now correct that for myself and be kinder and gentler and and more loving and so yeah it's that's a daily practice it really is it sure is and with step parenting how have you approached that knowing you know like you say we've all our parents have all imprinted something on us whether negative positive bit of both and also the sort of blended family dynamic it's a tricky one you know it's a really tricky one and you've got to navigate it setting boundaries and I think looking back to the start of my own step parenting journey I definitely didn't set enough I didn't feel confident enough to say what I was comfortable with or how I wanted to do things.

46:08I think that took a lot of time and incremental sort of building of confidence. How did you begin that experience of step parenting and how do you think it's changed over the years? Oh, it's totally changed since I was so young. I was in my late 20s and yeah, I don't know if you felt this, but at the beginning for me, like the first three years, I felt kind of like an outcast, you know, in my own family. And so it was, you don't set a lot of boundaries, healthy boundaries, because you just want, once again, you just want everyone to like you and you just want everybody, everything to be calm. And then you realize, like, I mean, that's just a crazy dream that's not ever going to happen.

46:48Like, here's all of these different personalities and you just kind of have to respect people's ups and downs. And no, you know, for me, it was like, okay, how can I show up and be loving and accepting even when people are throwing tantrums and you know there's issues and kids are throwing tantrums parents are throwing tantrums like it becomes you just for me it was like okay how do I just come up show up and be as accepting and also like you said set boundaries and be like you know there is a certain level of respect that has to happen for us to be able to to be blended um and still to this day like there's that that's hard.

47:27It's hard, you know, because those boundaries can be crossed and you have to kind of, I think you have to reassess. It's just kind of like situational. And, you know, as the kids get older, like they, they kind of go in between and in and out of, you know, households and things. And they, yeah, they make, they make up their own mind about the world that they want to live in. And yeah, and they're, they're great kids. Like we've all done a really good job raising these boys and and yeah you're right like it it's it's interesting they were really triggering for me um they they showed me all the places in which I needed some healing and it was it would have been so easy I think kids are great they do that with good teachers yeah um but the first like three or four years I remember having this one moment where I remember very clearly, like seeing how they like the dynamic that we all had together was was similar to like my childhood.

48:31And I could see very clearly who was triggering what and what I needed to heal. And it was a moment where I was like, I can't blame these people for my issues. And some people don't get there, you know, some people don't. But for me, it was Like if I'm going to have if I'm going to be in this situation in this relationship, I have to handle my own stuff so that I can deal with what is surrounding me. And, you know, to see the kids like have such an incredible father and and a childhood like that was super triggering for me because I didn't. That's where it showed up for me for the first time where I really understood.

49:12oh wow I kind of do wish my childhood was different and I got to play and I got to just make mistakes and it wasn't you know millions of dollars wasn't riding on that mistake and um so I was there was some there was some bitterness there for a while of and not towards the kids but just like I can tell in me yeah um and so yeah I had to I had to deal with all of that um which is great I mean it was it was such an eye-opener and I have dealt with all of that and And I love, like, I've loved seeing the kids have a childhood. Like, it's been. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold.

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51:23I'll cry because it's, I didn't have that. And so to be able to give that to someone else, it's been really special. It's really beautiful. I've seen the things that make me cry. You don't even know. Like you're saying, you're discovering these things about yourself as you're sitting here. And it's really lovely because I think for people embarking on a blended family, there isn't enough resource out there for us to go, how do I do it? And there aren't enough positive stories going, this can be a really beautiful thing. That doesn't mitigate the challenges. No, it's really challenging. And it's really hard all the time.

52:00yeah but look you know you these tears are brought on by joy and feeling part of something and knowing your contribution to their lives and it doesn't have to be said aloud it won't always be recognized you won't necessarily be thanked for it but I think having that you know yeah is such a beautiful beautiful thing and you know every step parent has the opportunity to do that in their own way and it will be bespoke and it will look completely different that's the thing like everybody's situation is different and no one you know don't pass judgment on anyone else's situation because you just don't know what's going on you don't yeah you don't and you know that's again something that you've had to get used to over the years and you've had to learn that lesson because people in the public eye there are assumptions about all sorts of things in their lives and nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors apart from the people behind the door.

52:56Yeah, absolutely. So very true. Yeah, it is. But it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's really important for step parents to hear it, that it is totally doable. It can, it is really hard. It always will be hard. Parenting just in general is hard, but it is a really special, beautiful thing. How do you suppose being a step parent or experiencing, it could even be the tougher sides, the challenges of being a parent and triggering things. How has that opened up your songwriting and how you like to express yourself or the subject matters that you're wanting to do yeah I remember well I wrote this song called love line which was on my album remnants and I wrote it for the boys and um there's so much I wanted to say to them you know um when I was first in their lives and I was definitely not an appropriate conversation and so I wrote a song called love line which is just about you know love being so much deeper than than blood like and I you know god my family what who i who i call family in my life most of them are not blood and you know it's it's just this it really has i think that's life has shown me that family is what you make of it and so that you know it's definitely opened me up um my capacity to love and to be able to express that through music yeah they've they've changed that for sure and you think it's changed how you see your parents because again you wrote a song mother which is extremely powerful song and And that song kills me.

54:20Yeah, there's some more lyrics in there. And it's obviously something that you needed to say out loud. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, my mom and I've had a very challenging time, but as do a lot of mothers and daughters. And yeah, I mean, it's given me more empathy for them and their wounded children, you know, that inside of them that are very much present still in them. And so I think I can see some of their pitfalls and still some of their actions. I see the kid. I see the wounded kid and not necessarily like the adult mom and dad. And so it's given me a lot more empathy for that, for sure. How is it singing that song out loud?

55:05I can't. It came on the other day and I just started bawling. My friend Hannah was like, no. before I went on stage she's like no no no turn the song turn the song put Bruno Mars on anything quickly so yeah some of those songs are challenging even I did Loveline like I said my stepdad just passed away and I went through my set list right after he passed away and I was like okay I prepared myself for all the sad songs and I get to Loveline and I'm like oh crap I did not prepare myself for the song and I literally like the whole last half song I couldn't even sing I was done so you know music is music does that kind of thing and especially I don't know I I find with my music there's I could be in one place when I write it and then something in my life happens and I find that there's another layer to what I wrote and it hits me in a different place and such as you know that moment about my stepdad it's like oh wow this is like a whole new level to this song so that happens often yeah for sure and then I listened to song like mother and um you know after now her being alone the first lines are um i am you know i want the best for you that you've always wanted for me and i was then when i heard those two lines i was like oh my god because you know now i'm like helping her trying to navigate like this new life of hers and it's like you just want you know you want it's like she wants she's always wanted the best for me and it's like now in her you know she's this her very fragile state at this moment and it's like you just want what's best for her.

56:39And the roles kind of reverse in a little bit of a way. Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful song. And I wonder if, you know, with your songs, obviously there's the songwriting element and the lyrics which really touch people. But I always wonder this about singers who have that power to get people to, you know, just sort of shake off the shit from the day and have a good cry. Is there something in, like, the tone of your voice? There's something about the voice. It can't just be the lyrics. I don't think it can just be the lyrics. I think there's something that's almost inexplicable that is tonal, that reaches people, that feels more sort of somatic or visceral.

57:17There's something about, or even, you know, speaking voices, I think you feel it with people on the radio, perhaps, that their voice is comforting. I think with singing, it's got to be tonal as well. Oh, absolutely. It's vibrational for sure. And it's also the connection of, I'm trying to think of, I'm actually trying to think of this as you're asking me this. It's the connection of emotion and story, like truly understanding like what you're singing about and then expressing that through this art form. You know, it's yeah, it's there's a lot of components to it. I really haven't ever thought about what it is, but I think there's a frequency of the heart and the openness of the person that then just kind of comes through the voice.

58:08I think people, if you're that open, which I think I am when I sing, it's just people experience that frequency. Beautiful. I'm like that's really it's one of those things it's like it's almost like trying to explain the universe it's like putting that into words that's really what it is it's like really I feel like I've become this conduit for whatever that is to like flow through it's why music hits it's why we go to gigs and sway and go this is great you know it's like it's the whole beauty of it speaking of gigs I just want to wish you all the love and all the luck for May next year I'm so excited it's going to be so good Yes, I'm so excited.

58:47It's going to be a blast. It's going to be great. And thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Thanks for making me cry. I needed a good cry today. I'm about to start my period. So it's all good. Same. We're in sync. We're in sync. Thank you, Leanne. Thank you. Oh, Leanne, I was really buzzing after that chat. I just thought it was so wonderful to hear all about Leanne's life, to hear the love for her stepchildren. That sort of cracked my heart in two. But also to have a bit of a giggle with her, I felt like I really got to know Leanne Leanne, not like Superstar Leanne.

59:22And that felt like a real privilege. Leanne will be playing that incredible gig at the O2 Arena in London on the 8th of May 2024. Listen, like we said during this chat, the aim of wellness is not to become good at it. I never want it to become just sort of another stick for you to beat yourself with. But if and when you feel you'd like to arm yourself with a few more tools, do search for Happy Place on YouTube because we've got some gorgeous practitioners on there to help us understand how our brains might be working. Have a little rummage around there and see what speaks to you. OK, back with another podcast episode next week.

1:00:02But in the meantime, a huge thanks again to Leanne, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you. I appreciate you massively.

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