Leigh-Anne Pinnock: Racism, perfectionism, and hallucinations

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and today I'm chatting to Leanne Pinnock. Like, saying the words, I am being treated differently because of the colour of my skin. Saying those words, even to the girls, I was like, this sounds ludicrous. For all those years, it just sounded wild to me. I just never knew how to say it. But then, yeah, obviously, the world almost woke up in a way. And these conversations aren't awkward anymore, you know? Like, we can have these conversations. Leanne's life changed overnight when she became part of the first ever girl band to win the X Factor. Little Mix went on to become one of the biggest girl bands of all time.

0:43They were a multi-platinum selling supergroup. But the ascent to global fame wasn't always comfortable for Leanne. Despite literally living her childhood dream of becoming a pop star, she was faced with the reality of being a black woman in an industry and team with little diversity. I've interviewed Leanne under other guises before. On Radio 1, they came into the live lounge, on top of the pops, no doubt. I mean, so many times I can't even remember. But having this chat with her felt like a very special opportunity to really get to know her personally, because as she details in her new memoir, Believe, she struggled with her identity in the band and ultimately felt really quite lost.

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3:33Right, here it is. This is the show.

3:57Hey, Leanne. Hi. We were just trying to work out when it was we last saw each other. I don't know. Yeah, it was a long time ago. But nice to see you again. It's so nice to see you. Oh, my you. I know, but do you know what? I'm so glad I'm getting to chat to you one-on-one because we've got a hell of a lot to get through today. There's this sort of divine energy emanating from you. Like, this is, it feels like this is Leanne's year. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, I think it was a really scary transition to make coming from the group to now obviously being on my own solo. It was a necessary transition, I think for all of us.

4:36But yeah, it's, it's been freeing, you know, like I can walk into rooms and I can sing about what I want to sing about and there's no compromise. And yeah, I feel like I can really show people what I'm made of. Yeah, it's liberating. Yes. As well as new music, you've written a book which really gets into it. You know, you are totally honest in this book, totally authentic. It seems like you're saying a lot of stuff that you didn't feel you could before. And now you've got this sort of freedom. And I think, you know, part of that might be because now you're in this sort of space where you're on your own.

5:07So you can have those sorts of discussions. But also, I guess a big part of it is age, confidence and feeling like you want to say this stuff. So true. Yeah. And I think as well, like, I know, like, the power that comes with having a platform, you know, like I can, I just feel like I'm in this position for a reason. Like, it's necessary for me to speak up and speak out about these issues, like, especially like with race, you know, like, it's, it's something that I am putting myself out there with. And, and I want to raise awareness. And I want to do something I want to see a change, you know, like, I think it's almost my duty to say something.

5:47Yeah. And, you know, you talk about some pretty painful stuff, because as I said at the start of this, you know, you've got this amazing energy going on. You're clearly fulfilling a lot of dreams and you're really comfy in your own life and you're doing what you want to do. But obviously there was a hell of a lot of pain and discomfort before that that you talk about in the book. And, you know, as an outsider, I hadn't realised that I've interviewed you so many times. And it's so often the case when I get this opportunity to properly sit with someone and chat that you get underneath what you're sort of presented, which is this really beautifully polished girl band who are exceptional at what they do.

6:25But there's so much shit going on underneath all that. And you were really struggling. I mean, I had no idea reading your book, you know, you were coming off stage so regularly and just bursting into tears immediately. And you didn't even know why at the start. That's, I think, what was the struggle. Like, I didn't understand it. And I blame myself. and it just came down to you're just not good enough like you have to do more vocal rehearsals you have to talk more in interviews you have to be more funny you've just got to stand out more because clearly what you're doing isn't working and I did all of that like and I felt like I just put in so many hours to try and better myself when really I just had to be myself you know so yeah it was it was a frustrating thing to deal with to not to not know that it was because of the color of my skin to not have that definitive like answer as to why I'm going through this and years and years when I remember like coming off stage and my manager would be like I'd be crying and she'd be like Leanne like it's not you you're amazing and bless her like she she didn't know what to say to me you know she was just trying to like lift me up and I was like why is this happening like why am I fading like why am I not equal to the other girls like why am I not getting this reception like they are what is going on and and no one could help me and I think it wasn't really until Brazil for me I went to Brazil and we performed to a predominantly black crowd and they were chanting my name and I toured the world with the girls and I'd never felt feeling like it and I felt I felt like it changed my life to be honest because it was the it was the what's the realization that I needed to fully understand what was happening yeah it's a really emotional part of the book you know it's right at the start of the book that you talk about that gig and having that realization and walking off stage and feeling seen feeling heard feeling loved which you clearly hadn't for many many years and there was also an element of that that fell prior to the Brazil gig that you were being gaslit to some extent because you would come off and say you know what is going on why am I not getting the same amount of you know brilliant warm reception from the crowd and everyone, I guess, you know, trying to make you feel comfortable would say, no, no, it's all in your head, everyone loves you.

8:39But actually, that's not necessarily helpful when you're trying to work out what's the reason and how do I overcome this? Exactly. And I just remember hearing so much, it's in your head, Leanne, it's in your head. And it was only times where I could speak to my black dancers who just got it because they had had similar experiences in their lives. you know like we could all speak and and I found so much like comfort with them and like there were times I could speak to Jade as well like I remember I speak about in the book there was one time on stage it was the LM5 tour and I was coming off and I was getting really sad and just feeling the same feeling and then my dancer King and Lorenzo there was a move that they did and they turned around to me and they did like a crown sign on their heads and looked at me and that was it I was gone they did it every night and god I get shivers when I think about it because I needed that I just needed to see that um so yeah like I took comfort in those times so during this whole process of you know having been on the x factor the band forming making music touring the world having all of these complex feelings going on at what point did you realize wait a minute this is about race oh good question I think as the years went on like I would speak to my family about it and the conversation came up sometimes my mum and dad would be like Leanne you're getting the same money just let it's okay just get on with it do what you gotta do and I didn't want to hear that at that time I what it's almost like I I wanted to I don't know it's like tough love you know like and I don't I don't know what I needed but that to me was like I don't I just want to get on with it you know like I want something to change it but I think actually I know when it was I read Why No Longer Talk to White People About Race and when I read that it was like okay like this is this is so relatable right now like and I think I read something like um as a black person walking into a predominantly white room you should be the one that stands out so why why is it an invisible feeling you know and I was like wow like I related to that so much I then remember I first spoke about race 2018 with ASOS magazine and it fell on deaf ears like just no one cared um and it's interesting because when I wanted to do my documentary Race Pop and Power and when I started talking about wanting to do it this was years ago actually that I first started thinking about it and my mum was like but no one cares about race Leanne like great amazing but but people just don't want to hear it and that was the reality and I think it was only like the tragic killing of George Floyd and obviously the movement started happening in the pandemic everyone was talking about race for the first time in my lifetime so then I decided to put a video out my sister called me and she was like leanne like you have to talk about your experiences like properly like go in and just just say it and i did and i think it was like the overwhelming like response of just support like there was for my fans from so many people all around the world and also hearing from other girls in different girl bands like normani from fifth harmony like rochelle from the saturdays like reaching out black girls in their group and they said exactly the same like normani said you and me and I am you and I was just like oh my gosh like this whole time like this has been a thing this has not been in my head this is real so I think it was like these little things that added to the realization of it it would have been so amazing if you could have had those conversations with those other girl band members prior to that but then there wasn't the space for it seemingly or it wasn't something that anyone felt necessarily comfortable talking about openly through I don't You know, fear is usually fear, whether you're black or white.

12:41I think there was huge fear prior to the whole movement. Is this OK to say? Should I say it? And sometimes I feel like on this podcast, certainly my duty is to sometimes say the unsayable or things that you're scared about. And I certainly, I think prior to the movement, wouldn't have felt comfortable asking anybody about race unless they had brought it up, which isn't necessarily right. I maybe should have moved more towards that subject of my own accord, but I think I was absolutely terrified. I think we all were. We all were. We all were as a black woman. I think it's that stuff. Like, it was like an icky thing.

13:19And, like, I could talk about it, like, on my Sundays with my family, you know, in, like, these safe spaces or, like, with my friends, but it was never a thing. Like, saying the words, I am being treated differently because of the colour of my skin. Saying those words, even to the girls, like... I was like, this sounds ludicrous. For all those years, it just sounded wild to me. So I just never knew how to say it. But then, yeah, obviously, the world almost woke up in a way. And these conversations aren't awkward anymore, you know? Like, we can have these conversations. And, yeah, I feel like a lot has changed.

14:00Still a lot to be done, but it feels like it's moving in the right direction. so when you would approach whether it's the band or I know much like myself you've got your old schoolmates that are still your really really good friends could you approach that subject prior to you having this realization is that something you felt you could say especially to the band like look I'm really I'm really struggling here I don't think so really um they knew that I but we would joke about it like I would be like oh they don't care about me anyway like oh the fans don't really care anyway like that's what I would say and laugh about it and like looking back on it I'm like wow like but I never really said to them I think it's because of my race because I didn't even know you know so but yeah it wasn't until like the the last maybe like four years or three years where like I felt like I could but especially to Jade you know because she's like mixed heritage.

14:58So I just felt like she really got it. But yeah, it was just saying it out loud, just something about it. And so having that realisation, which is essential for you to then be able to work out coping mechanisms or how you're going to build your confidence back up, because from reading your book, and I think, you know, there's lots of people out there who have entered the public eye, definitely myself included, who had a sort of, perhaps a natural confidence prior to that and then it quickly gets stripped away from being in the public eye because everyone's got an opinion everyone you know you know eyes are on you so you're aiming for some kind of elusive perfection that doesn't actually exist and you start to second guess yourself and question everything that you're doing so you really get to see that in your book how that confidence was just slowly ebbing away and it's really heartbreaking to read at times and I think many people would read that and it massively resonates being then at the point where you feel like I've got no confidence you know I'm not feeling great but at least I know why now yeah how did you then start to build your confidence back up to get back on stage because it's no mean feat especially now on your own yeah to be out there doing what you love but without your other bandmates on the stage with you and to get on the stage and not feel insecure or worried or second guessing what's going to happen how did you start to incrementally build that confidence so oh um obviously we had yeah brazil and like that sort of awakening so that was a massive pivotal point like that was the start of something yeah 100 % because I there were people out there that saw me you know and like I felt it on that stage and I think that did a lot for my confidence for sure I mean I feel like even now like I'll have moments where I'll still feel like that girl you know who who really was like stripped of things like character confidence whatever but I'm also that girl that is just taking it now like I really do feel like the more that I've been open and the more that I've spoken out and the more that like Like everything's there now.

17:11It's out. I've just got to move on. You know, like I am taking all of these opportunities. Like I know my power. I know my worth. And like I've got children now that I have to show that to too. So yeah, I mean, that's like a massive thing for me. Like, and they are, she's not going to get emotional. Oh God. My children are so fearless. Like they're two. and I always think to myself what would they do they're two years old and I literally think what would they do and that is all I need it's the biggest biggest perspective shifter isn't it it's you know it's just huge it's huge it makes you re-evaluate everything and also do you know what I think it is and it makes me feel deeply emotional you know um in the same light is that it gives you actually your purpose is totally different now you know you're doing it for different reasons and like I know some people might think oh she's banging on about race again but if I can keep talking about it and make sure that these things don't happen again to affect them I'm gonna do that you know like I'm in this unique position where I do have at the minute a predominantly white fan base even right now and I do want to like educate and I do want to keep just speaking about it and raising this awareness like otherwise why am I here you know like I really do feel like there's a deeper purpose for me yeah that's so important and it's brilliant that you're doing it and you're what you're managing to do is straddle your passion which is singing and performing, but also there's deeply important messaging there that you want to get out there.

19:03And it's amazing that you're doing it. It's liberating. Thank you. Oh, sorry. It's beautiful. I love it. It's so beautiful. I mean, I loved reading, again, towards the beginning of the book, this mantra that you've now got. When you walk on stage, you've got a mantra. And I know you were using it in more desperate times when you needed to build yourself up, but it's still something you say to yourself, Do you mind sharing it with us now? Oh, believe. No, but you've got this, like, I'm queen. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I've dogged it. I'm fierce. I'm fierce. I'm powerful. I'm strong. Yes. Yes.

19:38I'm a queen. I'm a queen. I was like, I wonder. Yeah, here you go. Yes. You're a queen. You're fierce. You're powerful. Yes. You're a queen. You're fierce. You're powerful. Yes. I hope Leanne doesn't mind, but I'm stealing that one. I'm having it. No, it's so important. I always say that to myself for a stage. it's so important because like you said a moment ago you can do all this work on yourself and you can build yourself up but that doesn't mean you're completely robust and you're going to just be then every time you go on stage going i've got this let's go i mean every time i do a podcast i'm slightly shitting myself before because i want it to go wow and i think you do have to reprogram your mind to go i'm capable of doing this i am fierce i'm gonna get out there and i'm gonna do it and actually even if because I'm sure there have been times when you've been saying that on repeat in your head but you haven't believed it but you've got to still say it so true you've got to still say it it's so true and like yeah you're right I think there are times where like I do sort of resort to feeling like that girl again and but I'm also bored of feeling like that like I'm bored of doubting myself and it's like I was taught to do that I was I'd learned it and that's why I think now like I have therapy and whatever and I am kind of still healing from it but I also know that it's not really doing me good you know like I like I want to do this solo career and I want to show people the potential that they might not have seen when I was in the group and like I'm so excited to show that and and also that little girl who had a dream and She was so determined to make it come true.

21:20Like, I'm also doing it for her. Yeah, I mean, I am human. So these things sometimes do come back and these doubts do sometimes come back. And I'm like, Juno Chop, get out! Just get out! Because, yeah, like, I'm just ready to do this now on my own. Yeah, and do you know what? I was talking to a friend about this last week. We all have those moments where we go back to feeling like... I could easily go back to feeling like when I was 15, when I was starting out in TV, and I was just some random kid from the suburbs who didn't know what was going on. And I can eat, I'm 40 fucking too. And I can still go back to feeling 15.

21:56Like I don't belong on the set. I don't know what I'm doing. I've just literally come out of school. What the heck am I up to? And my friend Harry, who I was talking to, is like, this is when you have to parent yourself. Remember, be a parent to that younger version of yourself. Yes. Because we couldn't be then because we were too young. And obviously our parents, you know, they're obviously going through this for the first time too they've never had a daughter in a pop band they've never had a daughter doing what i do so you've got to actually go back and parent that younger version of yourself and go it's all right literally it's all gonna be okay you've got this it's fine but we're so used to the habitual things to go when we're in trickier times oh i'm worthless i can't do this i'm useless and we just beat ourselves up everybody does this you Not just people who do jobs like ours.

22:43Everybody has a propensity to turn on themselves. And as soon as other people start to say something mean online or whatever, it's so easy for you to go, yeah, I am a piece of shit. And you just turn on yourself. It's horrible. Oh my God, it's the worst. It is the worst. And that's the time when you need yourself the most. Yeah, it is that sort of like imposter syndrome. And I actually feel like a lot of people for sure will have that, but a lot of artists as well. and it's like they could be selling out arenas but probably still have this element of it. Like it's, oh, it's a thing, isn't it? Yeah, it's a thing.

23:17Oh my God, I've interviewed people that you would not even imagine, like top of their game or even just chatted to off mic who are deeply insecure about what they're doing and you could never imagine it. But I think if you can use that positively, it's great fire in your belly to go, right, well, what's the next goal? How can I keep progressing? But it's a fine line between fire in your belly and actually feeling like this is too much I can't do this yeah yeah because it is a lot to put yourself out there 100 % and I think as well like this idea of self-worth depending on how well you do if that makes sense like um god I can't not explain it very well but I did something in therapy where it's like this sort of chart and it's like I was going in this like vicious circle of because I have so much drive and like it's okay if things don't work out the way I want to or like it's it's like I was always searching for the next thing like nothing's ever good enough if that makes sense like in this sort of circle of it and just like working out ways of trying to break this cycle because like I'm out here making music that I love like that's a win in itself yeah you know and I think like I was going through something going from like the one of the biggest girl bands in the world and like this massive machine getting number one is here and there to now transitioning to being a new artist.

24:36And I very much do have to start from the bottom now. Like, obviously I have a platform, but I am still new, you know, like I'm not in a group anymore. So I think like getting my head around that and being like, it's okay, like this is going to take a bit of time, but that's fine. Like you've had two songs out, you know, like you're growing, like you've got so much to offer. You're making great music. You love what you're doing. Enjoy it. Yeah. Like, it's fine. Yeah. Do you know what? I think it's scary to let yourself enjoy it. I find that. I think, oh, you can't enjoy this. You need to work out what the hell you're doing next.

25:13Like, what's the next? It is that. I'm always in that vicious circle. Absolutely. Okay, that was good. But next, what's next? What's happening next? And actually, you're trying to quantify your self-worth with stuff or like achievement. Exactly. And it's impossible because what's the end? Where does it end? It doesn't. And I think that, you know, that leads very nicely on to sort of talking about perfectionism, which I think is so, it's such a burn. It's the pits. But we're all stuck in it. Everyone's stuck in this. And, you know, when you have, again, got all eyes on you going, well, what's Leanne doing?

25:46And what's the song? And what's the book? And how's the book doing? And there's all these quantifiable charting mechanisms that make you think I'm doing well or I'm not doing well, whatever it might be. it's really hard to let go of the idea of perfection and just go with it i mean perfection is it's so evil and tricky yep oh my gosh you literally hit the nail on the head um it's so frustrating because like i can go on and have a great performance and like it's perceived really well there's like one little thing that i did wrong or whatever and i'm beating myself up and like i look back on that i'm like leanne just chill like you did good you know like Just give yourself a break.

26:28Yes. Wow. I know. Why do we do it to ourselves? I know. And also we're human. We're not robots. We can't perform a task sort of mechanically and perfectly. We're human. There's going to be little moments where I stumble over words or you forget lyrics or whatever we're doing because we're human beings. And that's the beauty of it. Exactly. But we're so, I think social media has enhanced that in the worst possible way. Do you feel like it's got worse? Yeah. God, yeah. Yeah. I mean, God, when I was on kids' TV, I was awful, obviously, and I'd be saying all sorts of wrong things and just, you know, messing up left, right and centre.

27:03No one cared, or if they did, it was in their head. But now I think that the strange translation of thought to now it being typed onto a screen, it feels more brutal. It's actually no different to someone just thinking it and then it disappearing, but actually being on a screen makes it seem sort of more vicious and real. It's not. It's the same as someone thinking it and then going, oh I'll make a cup of tea now. But it's crazy and I mean you I know you've done a lot of legwork beforehand and you were deeply passionate about performing and singing but going into the X Factor you're straight into that environment.

27:38There's no gentle glide into that one. You're straight in to that spotlight and again reading your book I could see how you said you were a shy kid but you were deeply passionate about singing and performing and that's where your confidence lived. yeah but as soon as you started that x-factor process that is where perhaps those insecurities started to kick in yeah so i remember um there was one show that i did it was telephone and on the night of the show like they took away my lines and gave it to another girl and they didn't even like help me like oh maybe we should do it this way or whatever it was like this girl singing that and I was just like okay what a way to knock my confidence and then I remember calling my sister and she was like okay they're not gonna hear you but they're gonna see you so dance your ass off for this show and I did you watch that back I am giving it oh my goodness and then like another week um I really wanted to sing a certain part of the song it was don't let go and then uh One of the producers was just like, well, go on then.

28:43Sing it if you can. And I was like, okay, here's my audition again. And then I did it. And then she was like, yeah, you can do it. And I was thinking, why is this so brutal? Like, oh, my gosh. And it was brutal. And you were progressing. Well, you won the show. But, I mean, you were progressing without knowing you were going to win. But you're seeing every week people go home. Yeah. Dream over. Yes. Bye. Back to what you were doing before. and you talk about how awful that was. Do you think... Yeah. I mean, it's a big one. And, you know, I worked on X Factor. I did the Extra Factor for one year and I was like, this is too much for me.

29:20Goodbye, everyone. Do you think there's enough care in terms of giving someone that dream or a glimpse of it and then it just dissipates immediately? Well, not back then. No. Definitely not. But obviously, I think we talk a lot more about mental health. And so we did a show called The Search and like we made sure that a lot went into that like talking to the contestants constantly like are you okay like even if they had to go home like there was people checking up on them constantly because we know firsthand like that I mean luckily like we we won the show and we obviously didn't get sent home but at the beginning like we had some no's and then we were obviously put into a group but you literally if you you audition one of those shows like this is your life you just want to sing like this is your dream and like there was a point of doing the search like that was in the palm of our hand someone else's dream like I really struggled I cried all the time I hated it like how saying no to people just oh my gosh and I think it's because I knew how much I wanted it so yeah that was that was really hard but I definitely feel like things have are changing now in terms of the level of care that they have for people um I think The market's uncertain.

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32:31Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast.

32:39It was brilliant and it all seems very sort of fateful and fortuitous. Again, looking back on your X Factor story that you were put in this group and you guys clicked. There was some magic immediately that you all clicked. You shared a work ethic. You really got on with each other. Alongside that ran this feeling for you of, but who am I? What's my identity? And again, we can look at the model of the Spice Girls who, you know, we were all obsessed with. And it was really clear to see, you know, Smash It's given them these names of Posh and Sporty. And we could clearly see what their supposed persona was.

33:15But that obviously leads for a lot of other musicians in bands, certainly, to have this, you know, identity that's already there. And you go, I'm the one who dot, dot, dot. You know, and even later in the book, you talk about asking yourself that question, like, who are you, Leanne? Who are you? is that something that you're still concerned about or you still give thought to not definitely not as much because now I'm just like I'm me take it or leave it I am literally just myself and I feel like whoever meets me sees that as well I just I think I spent too many years thinking that question who am I like what do I bring to this group or whatever I think obviously being in a girl band as well like we were very much equal there wasn't a front runner there wasn't a lead singer so everybody had like the Spice Girls everyone had their thing and I felt like everyone else kind of had that figured out really early and then there was just me like okay am I in the sexy one and then one time like I um like had this particular hairstyle that I wanted to keep going with um I was just just not figuring it out and I guess like I was really young too you know like there was quite a lot to kind of like deal with and handle but no now now I'm just like take it or leave it man yeah and also I mean I sort of think I don't know who I am still and I'm actually quite excited by that like what there's still so much to learn about like what I can do what I don't want to do I think it's a really juicy proposition when you're younger that you've got to figure it out and then maybe as you get older you just think i don't care let's just see what happens let's see what happens and quite exciting who am i going to be when i'm 60 i don't know yes i think as well like now moving into this solo era like people are asking okay leanne who are you again the same question okay well i've had two songs out so let's just see you know like why do i have to have this so figured out like i've literally just entered my my solo journey like i know the kind of music that I want to make, like, let's just do it, you know, without that pressure.

35:24Yeah, and it's strange because once you maybe do figure it out, if any of us ever do, especially if your job is public facing, that then that's you set in stone. Like, you are that. People find it really hard when, I think, certainly music artists change either style of music or what they look like or who they're showing up as, whereas we're all changing every day. Every single person on planet Earth is evolving and growing and changing daily. But we've got a low tolerance for it for people who are out there on a stage. It's so true, isn't it? It really is. Yeah. And I think as an artist as well, you should be able to explore the different sides, you know.

36:05And like if you're feeling in a certain mood one day and you want to write a ballad, but you normally write upbeat songs, then do your ballad, you know. Like it's you should have that ability to be able to put out what you want and feel what you want to feel. Do you think, I mean, I'd probably say in a cliche way, personally, that I've come to these discoveries through age and experience. Would you say it's a similar thing for you? There's not been like one epiphany. It's sort of, it's age. I think it's definitely age, 100%. Yeah. Older and wiser, don't you? And like, you learn as you go. And you also have to go through things, you know, like the struggles and setbacks and everything.

36:41It just builds you up and makes you more resilient and stronger. Yeah, I think it's really encouraging for people to hear you say that. I think looking to, again, that sort of like top tier level of musician who are sort of global, touring, look like they've got it all figured out. It is really liberating to hear that there are insecurities underneath. There are, you know, constant cognitive whirings of questioning yourself. And there was a deeply sad bit in the book where you talk about this period of your career where you were obsessed with the idea of getting a nose job because you felt this discomfort in your own skin.

37:21How did you get through that period and come out going, do you know what? I actually really like myself. I just remember constantly comparing myself and always feeling like the least desired. And people will sometimes say, oh, but why did you feel like that? Sometimes it's just a feeling, you know, like it's just a frickin' thing. feeling um but yeah I would I wanted a nose job I hate saying it oh I love my nose I'm so glad I didn't do it I really love my nose like it's just it's crazy but I think I was obsessed with like looking around me and at these Eurocentric beauty features that are considered beautiful you know and feeling like I had to look like that to appeal to this audience this predominantly white audience that we had and then also a magazine as well I think They edited mine and Jade's nose.

38:11And we were so excited to do this mag and saw the pictures back. And that was a real knock, you know. Like, you really think that we have to do that to be beautiful. Like, you've actually done that to us. Like, it was horrible. But all these little things just kind of just, like, added to it. I think Instagram, again, and I'm not going to slag it off entirely because I really like using it. And I really, I enjoy learning from it. I like the connection from it. I think it's sometimes just quite fun. But I think, you know, I did a post about this the other day, more in relation to ageing, because in this industry and you see quite a few people getting Botox.

38:48And then you see on Instagram, not only Botox, but it's nothing I'm not slagging off Botox if that's what you want to do. I'm not being judgmental about this. But for me personally, I don't want to fit into that mold. and you see on Instagram these certain pictures, extremely filtered, you know, whatever, there's certain angles and everything does look extremely, it's sort of identikit. I've got a characterful nose and I've definitely gone through periods where I've thought, oh God, I wish I had sort of cute little butter nose. I now love my nose. This is my dad's nose, okay, and my dad's ace.

39:24So I'm sticking with this nose and I like it. And I'm also sticking with these, I've got lines over my forehead when I do that. And I got lines here, I got lines here. I don't give a shit. I think we've all got to really try and push against this narrative that we've got to, certainly as females, show up in a certain way and looking a certain way. Looking the same. Guess what, guys? I'm going to keep on ageing. And each time you log on, I'm going to look a little bit older. Yes. We've got to do this. Why are women so scrutinised for that? Like, men can just age. They're age like fine wine. I know.

39:59They're frigging grey foxes. What do they get called? Yeah, silver foxes. Silver foxes. There's no silver female fox. Do you know what I mean? Like, gosh, just let us be. Let us be. Honestly. It's true, though. It's so true. I know. It drives me mad. And it scares me for my kids massively. That's the thing. And that, again, might be a bit of a cliche, but it scares me. I'm sort of hoping there'll be an implosion in that generation that just go, sod all this, we're not going to listen. We're going to do our own thing, and I really hope that happens. because at the moment it still feels on the edge of, eek, there is this pressure for everyone to turn up aesthetically looking a certain way and we've got to have room for there to be just great diversity in every capacity, in every area.

40:42I feel like as well, like, kids are getting older quicker. Yes. Like, when you look at, like, I don't know, someone that's, like, 13 and they look about 20, like, that scares the life out of me. I know. Like, you know, like, when we were growing up, old no we're not old it's just when we were growing up and like we didn't have all those filters and whatever we we went through like our stages whereas now it's like how can i explain this like there's no like not ugly stage but like we how can i you know what i'm saying like well we experimented holy cow i had all the hair colors all the haircuts all the awful makeup and dark brown lip liner and just now it's like going straight to this like sophistication yeah perfect quote unquote like yeah look and yeah it's scary it is scary it is scary I mean that's the good thing about social media is there is always like a sort of counter narrative that hopefully is running parallel to the stuff that is probably a little bit less helpful but it's a big subject we'll see um I mean you've you've talked about you've alluded to therapy already I know that you started therapy 2013 what made you seek out therapy in the first place oh gosh um I first had it yeah I was experiencing all these things in the group like feeling less than feeling invisible like I wanted to speak to somebody so I spoke to a lady it was so lovely and she's like she's done fair people with us as a group as well but when I spoke to her I just it didn't come to that conclusion you know like she couldn't say to me okay it probably is because of your skin like there was none of that you know like there was no like realization of that so it wasn't really that helpful for me and then obviously yeah we have had it as a group as well like like losing a member and whatever like we had to obviously we needed something because it was just such a horrible like moment time but recently yes I am having therapy and I think for me it was really important to have a black woman because sometimes you want to just be able to talk and not feel like you have to explain you know like in the fact that she just gets it like it's just such a comforting feeling because it it's exhausting enough talking about race like it's so tiring and the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast no bulky overhead no rigid long-term contracts just the right expert right when you need them.

43:22Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. Figs gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout.

44:00That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending with real-time notifications kids learn to earn save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place sign up for green light today at greenlight.com slash podcast yeah i just think it was important that i had that and do you is this something you still regularly do now yeah no it is i'm not gonna lie sometimes i'm like oh i've got it today and i get a bit oh do i want to get into things do i want to but then I have it and I'm like oh my god I'm so glad I did that yeah you know like it is a scary thing but it's so necessary yeah it is I think going back to even that question of like who am I it sort of helps you figure all that out or care less and it's you know it's it's important I certainly have that or some days I go I feel great I don't need to and that's probably a sign that I really should yeah yeah I get that too it's mad it is it is so look you alluded to it We don't have to get into it too hugely here, but obviously Jessie came on the podcast not long after she left Little Mix, and that was a deeply painful time for you.

45:24As well as therapy, how did you navigate that? I think we were really lucky. Me, Jade, and Pez really stuck together. We were lucky that we had that bond to get each other through it. The fans were amazing. I felt like we were held, and obviously we had an incredible team. We had an incredible team so that they were really strong for us too. And yeah, therapy too. We had to have a bit of therapy. Yeah, it was hard. I mean, you're on an indefinite hiatus at the moment. Do you still talk as a band about what the future could hold, what you might do later down the line? Yeah, I mean, I like to think we'll definitely do a reunion.

46:04Like, how can we not? You know, like, I mean, let's just enjoy this time now, like for each of us. but yeah I definitely think maybe like five years time we'll get back together make a load of money you know you've got your plans yeah you've got your plans and how are your gorgeous twins I saw that little video the other day of them dancing to your single my love it's the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life no stop but they sing it as well they sing it I'll be like what's your favourite song? They go, my love. And they're two. Yeah. Terrible twos or okay twos? Bit of both, to be honest. They're kind of chill, but yeah, they definitely have their moments.

46:47Oh God, I'm obsessed. And twins is no mean feat. I mean, I've got friends with twins. Yes. And that's an experience that, you know, I haven't lived through, but simple things, breastfeeding, you trying to sleep at night, it's a whole other shebang. Yeah, I had to breastfeed them at the same time at one point. But I remember there was one time where they were up on the hour every hour. Like, they were taking it in turns. So I just didn't sleep. And, like, I was hallucinating. Like, there were spiders crawling across me. There was bees on the ceiling. Like, I remember waking Andrew like, get up!

47:20And he was like, what? I'm like, I'm just hallucinating again. That tiredness. It's next level. Yeah, it's wild. Wow. But we do it. You got through it. We're resilient, man, us women. Jeez. I know we're so strong what we can do wild and you've also got your partner he's not living in the UK at the moment he's in Saudi Saudi yeah so how's that how's that to manage oh long um yeah I just miss him it's I mean he probably sees us like once a month at the minute like it's long yeah long distance is hard but we know what we're doing it for you know like we're doing it for them for the babies so not long to go.

48:01Yeah, you've got this. You know what your future goals are. Just not keep going with it. I mean, again, I really appreciated in the book that you were very keen to say let's not sugarcoat relationships here because every relationship has either had its challenges, faces its challenges at the moment and you talk about rougher times that you had with your partner. How did you get through that and end up in a good place today? Because I think there's always people who are going to be listening to this or otherwise, who are at that point at the moment in a relationship going with kids, which is a very complicated situation.

48:37Am I seeing this through or is it time to call it a day? How did you stick with your relationship and have you got to a good place with it now? I think if you want something bad enough, you will fight for it. For me, I wasn't ready to throw the towel in. And I think I knew and I know what we have is so pure and so strong. And I think sometimes people are quick to kind of like give up or like walk away or whatever. But I think where we are now in this like beautiful place, I feel like we've had our struggles. And if anything, it feels sweeter where we are because we've like been through shit. And I don't know, there's just something about like if you really can make it through that and get to the other end.

49:21Like, what does that say? You know, like that says a lot. and also like nothing's perfect people mess up you know and like I think whatever we went through like I was I was ready to to fight and and make it through and I'm glad that I did and we did I also loved hearing about how you met because it's not dissimilar to my own story in the fact that I'd come out of a very long-term thing and I went fuck it I'm going to Ibiza you went fuck I'm going to Marbella oh my god stop I met my husband in a club and so did you brilliant oh my god I love that me too because actually it's usually when you're feeling like you're never going to meet anyone that you meet the person wow this is before dating apps we didn't have all that we were just like oh met someone in a club oh god that's so true we're so old fashioned oh my god that's so cliche isn't it but actually like when yeah for me I felt like it was actually love at first sight like and I'm hopeless romantic and I love really hard.

50:21Me too. Yay, I love that. But I just knew as soon as I saw him that, yeah. This is it. In Marbella. Literally. In a club. Marbella, Marbs. Love it. Wow. A bit of the Marbs. Yeah. Oh, I know what I wanted to say. You have dedicated your book to Grandma Norma and your nanny Doreen. What did those women mean to you? Oh, gosh. I'm trying not to cry again. um so my nanny Doreen was the kindest person ever like when you think of a nanny like we made cakes we made fresh fish and chips like we went on dog walks and like she was just the best and like me and my sister would just look forward to going to her house like every weekend that we could and like just obsessed with her and she never really got to she never got to see this she never got to see any of it and I just sometimes I just wish I wish that she could still be here to see to see me and but I know she is she's up there she's looking down um but I feel like what I got from my nanny like that like that sort of caring like kindness like I really feel like she imprinted that into into me and into my sisters so like I just love that and my grandma Norma um so we didn't see her as much as we'd like to because my granddad like we didn't really get on with him that much and like my mum wasn't really close to him she didn't really like him like he wasn't a very nice man and he was just horrible to my grandma um and we always get so like sad that we didn't spend enough time with her because she was an angel um so yeah I think we like we think about all the beautiful times that we did have with her and like the last like the proper memory I have of her was when she was like dancing um in our living room and like loving her life and like that was one of the last memories and like I just think of that and like again I know she's up there watching down on us also it's a lovely dedication it's so nice to look back on the generations and have that gratitude for what you got from those women it's so true yeah it's really important it's really important but look good luck with this beautiful book and everything that you're doing solo i'm so happy to see that you're thriving and that you're in such a good space it's It's a total joy.

52:57And thank you for being on Happy Place. Yay, that was so nice. Thank you. Leanne, what an absolute pleasure to get to have that chat with you. It was so beautiful just hearing you talk so honestly, so openly. I think it's hugely encouraging for other people to hear you talk in such a way. And I also loved hearing you talk about your grandmothers. That made me really reflect about my own grandmothers after the recording of the podcast. it's a really beautiful thing to do so thank you Leanne Leanne's memoir is called Believe and it's out now What else are you reading at the moment by the way? Come and join our book club over on Instagram at happyplacebookclub I love chatting there during the week and obviously I'll be back here next week with another wonderful guest Until then the biggest thank you again to Leanne, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you lot for being here with us we love you

54:21We'll see you next time. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games, saints and sinners, unexpected laughs and unspoken truths, good times, hard times, and of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients.

55:06FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.

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