"Life's too short for bad sex!" Grace Campbell is speaking up about pleasure and shame

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that wants you to be no one but yourself. Today, I'm chatting to Grace Campbell. When women get to that age, like Jane Fonda Lily Tomlin's age, historically they are deemed as invisible to the media. Like, we don't want to see them anymore. We don't want to hear from them anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just, like, don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gaze. they're not appeasing to like gatekeepers anymore they don't have to because they've like they've passed that I want to be that now why are we caring so much about like what people online say about us or like what men think about us or whether or not we're being like too much or too anxious or too emotional we're wasting so much time now this is a podcast episode that has been on the cards for ages.

0:51Fearne Cotton: First of all, I started off just being a fan of Grace's. I think we started initially DMing each other on Instagram and I was like, she's just cool and clever and funny and I love her stand up. And then we got to meet in real life. We were both at the Albert Hall, which is, if you haven't been, a beautiful, very historic venue in the heart of London. It is the most gorgeous venue to see a music show at because it's completely round so wherever you sit you're just in the gig and we were both there invited by the one and only brilliant Gillian Anderson who by the way has been on an episode of Happy Place a while back so do go scroll back after this and listen to it because she was fucking amazing anyway neither me or Grace could believe we'd been invited to this amazing night that Gillian had put on it was for her book Want and we both got the opportunity to stand up on stage, Grace to do stand up.

1:46Fearne Cotton: And I got to read out a sexual fantasy, an anonymous sexual fantasy from Gillian's book Want. And it was one of the best crowds I have ever talked in front of. They were so up for it. It was like a sort of giant hen slash stag do. Like everyone was up for a laugh. It was just joyous. It was shame busting because we were talking about sex. It was just one of my favourite nights of the year. And Grace did an amazing stand-up routine bang in the middle that had us just all on the floor. We were literally crying with laughter. So I bumped into Grace in the corridor and we had a massive hug like we were sort of long lost mates and just a brilliant chat straight in at the deep end with like all the goss.

2:28Fearne Cotton: It was so fun. And I was like, we've got to get you on the podcast. She's like, get me on the podcast. So here we are. Grace is just an utterly brilliant stand-up comedian and writes a lot about her relationships with men, with sex and with her mental health too. She's also very honest about feeling shame in the book that she wrote during the pandemic. It's called Amazing Disgrace, which I have to say I loved reading. It helped me a lot actually in many ways, sort of like rid shame in certain areas of my life. It's a bloody helpful book. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora.

3:11Fearne Cotton: I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first-of-its-kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. like people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora. While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it.

3:48Fearne Cotton: No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

4:19Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:44I'm having my little bag here.

4:47Fearne Cotton: Right, we're talking about this bag. My emotional support bag. Grace Campbell, everyone should have. Not that this podcast is a scary one, but to have an emotional support bag is no bad thing. Yeah, this is not a scary podcast, by the way. I feel very at ease with you but I just bought this bag and I'm obsessed with it I love it it's gonna hold nothing but it looks adorable it's gonna hold poo bags for the dog practical because the other day Fern I was walking my dog and this is how much of a stickler I am for people not picking up dog shit I was walking my dog I'd forgotten dog poo bags she did a shit I was like I can't I'm in my area I don't want someone to see that I've not picked up my dog shit I took my bra off and I picked the shit up with the bra and I threw the bra in the bin.

5:34And I really hope that karma comes back for me. That cannot be real. That is true. It was a very cheap bra. It was one of those ones that's like, you know, like it was from H &M. It was like not like a padded bra.

5:45Fearne Cotton: But you not wear, like I wear nearly the same bra every day because it's just the bra. It's the one that I know it fits, it works. I'd be devastated to lose that bra. This one was not one of those ones. it actually was a bit small for me and sometimes I was like if I'm wearing a tight top it looks like I have four tits but then right and then this is because I'm so scatty I walked past the pet shop and I thought oh I should buy poo bags thought of something else carried on she then did another shit right and then I stripped down and then I went into a bookshop on Blackstock Road and I was like, too polite to just ask for a plastic bag.

6:29You're right. Bought a book and then said, oh, can I get a bag for the book? Bought a book about mindfulness. Handy though. And it was actually a great book. Really changed my life. But then was like, oh, actually, can I get a plastic bag? And it was this tiny little book that I bought and she was like, okay. I was like, my dog's done a shit outside.

6:50Fearne Cotton: Sorry, you'll never forget poo bags. Never forget poo bags. How can you? I mean, it's adorable. I know. I sort of want one. I don't even have a dog. Oh, I should have got you one, actually, because they had blue, they had green. Oh, green. I wish I got you one. I'll get you one. I'll go back there and I'll get you one. Because after we've done this podcast, we are diarising to have a drink of a margarita of sorts. I can't wait. Doing an off-mic version of this. Because the first time we met was at the Royal Albert Hall. Yeah. And it was electric. It was electric. And we've got a photographic. We can look back one day and go, that's where we met.

7:21Fearne Cotton: It was crazy. The energy was crazy. And do you know what I loved? I can't do small talk. I'm not interested. I don't really care how your day was. I don't want to know about where you've just been on holiday. We just went straight in to the deep end. That's the only conversations I can have. Same. Yeah. I want to go deep straight away. And you told me the thing and I was like. And you know what I'm talking about. But we were also in such a public space. But you know when you like. That was. I'm so glad that the feeling is mutual. It is. It was a really. There was a spark. Crazy energetic moment there.

7:54And I was like, whoa, like we are like meant to hang out.

8:00Fearne Cotton: We're meant to hang out. It's my favorite feeling. Same. Especially, right, I'm in my mid-40s. And there's all this thing of like, oh, you don't meet people as you get older. You can meet anyone at any time and have a new amazing mate. Which is really fun. It's the best. It's so fun. This is why, right? I've just done a talk before this. And it was all about. Thank you. it was all about what my sort of goals are and I thought you know what the best thing about this job and the only thing I actually care about at this point is that I get to meet interesting people and chat and in no well very few jobs would I get to so frequently meet someone and sit like this and have a chat unless you're maybe like a therapist or something I don't know but you can't hang out with your clients when you're a therapist you can't you can't be like hey I love your vibe should we go for a spicy margarita I learned that the hard way when I bumped into my therapist in Sainsbury's and I went in for a hug and it that you can't do that and I didn't know I didn't know oh yeah did you carry on seeing them yes she's changed my life she's like the best person ever but I realized oh there's like a etiquette I'm not very like etiquette person no I didn't know that yeah you don't you don't say hi or whatever and I was like yay hug and and I realized I've done it wrong out in the world you're not supposed to say hi I think you can just be like hey like it's just like a little nod but you're not meant to have interaction do you think that's quite weird though because it's like then they are like what they only exist in the in the room and then they're basically like npcs like they're not real people that because sometimes i think i've made therapists up in my head like when i've had so many different types my friend holly the other day was like i've done every different type of therapy which is obviously a privilege to say but like i have tried absolutely everything to cure my silly little brain and And one of my therapists actually the other day came up on my TikTok algorithm.

9:50Like she had a podcast. And I was like, nope. No. No. That is not right. Don't you think?

9:56Fearne Cotton: I would prefer not to see a therapist that's got a big online community. Yeah. I think it is just, it's a very compartmentalized thing here that really works in that form only. Yeah. And I like that. I like them to be like a bit like contradicting myself. they exist in this one place for me and they exist almost just in my reality. I even find it jarring when I see another client waiting in the waiting room. I'm like, oh, you've got other clients. You're cheating on me. I'm not the only one. I can't be that special. I thought you'd just sit in this room all the time just waiting for me to turn up.

10:34Just thinking about me.

10:37Fearne Cotton: Now, you are about to go on tour, Grace. Yeah, I'm doing the Edinburgh Fringe for two weeks and I'm going on tour after that. I'm coming to see you on tour because this is going to be so good. The tour is called The Lady is a Tramp. Yes. The themes are, well some of it is themed around you needing male validation. Yeah, it's actually interesting because the thing about stand-up is you have to decide the title and the blur before you've written the show. So yeah, because you put it on sale. Like I'm writing the show at the moment so I'm figuring out what the show is about at the moment but you sort of have to decide a title so you can make a poster so you can put it on sale.

11:10Yes. Which is such a strange concept. But weirdly, yes, the show, I think I did a preview two nights ago is about perception and like how much people's perceptions of me have impacted how I view myself and how I behave my whole life. Right. And it's like some parts are relatable to like being a woman. Some parts are specifically relatable to being a woman online and other parts are just relatable to me. because my dad's Alistair Campbell. So there are parts of like my story of people's perceptions of me that only my brothers can relate to. But then other parts are like, you know, the way the things that people say about me on the internet and the sort of very contradicting things that people say about you or I or whoever on the internet and how as much as you might try to have a boundary with it, it does seep into your psyche because you're a human being.

12:08100%. And there's no way you can avoid that. And so the show's kind of, I think that's what it's turning out to be. I did a preview on Monday or Tuesday. And that was the part that I actually, as I was talking about it, found really interesting.

12:23Fearne Cotton: So this is a fascinating subject because, first of all, your idea of what people's perceptions are could be entirely wrong. And often they are. And often they are because we think, well, they're judging me because of this and they think this about me. I've had all of these thoughts over the years. They think I'm stupid or whatever. And actually, if you were to quiz those individuals or that group, they'd go, I don't think that at all. So we are kind of cherry picking little bits, usually to torture ourselves. And so we go, I'll take that bit because they've just called me a twat and they've just called me an idiot.

12:58Fearne Cotton: So I'll take that bit. And they obviously think I'm this. And actually, there's a ton of people that are like, I just think Grace is really great. I think it's exactly that. I think it feeds into the narrative that you have of yourself in your head. So you're constantly looking for evidence for that narrative. And then someone gives you that evidence. Like my best example of this is I've like always identified as crazy, right? Like in kind of like a fun way. But like my dad's got mental health issues. My uncle had paranoid schizophrenia. I grew up around a lot of like severe mental health issues.

13:29I don't have like, you know, schizophrenia or my dad's like a manic depressive. I think he maybe then got diagnosed with bipolar, but I can't speak on behalf of him. Have you had him on the podcast? No. I would love to have you. You should get him on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be really good on this podcast.

13:43Fearne Cotton: I fucking love the rest is history. The rest is politics. Keep that in. Keep that in. Both. I actually genuinely listen to both. I flip flop. I'm like, am I in a politic? Do I need that? I know. It's intense. Or am I going Tudor? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love you don't want to be in the present. Sometimes you want to be in the past. I want Elizabeth the first. Some days I want Alistair. Some days I want Elizabeth the first. And I flip flop. But I think your dad is fucking great. And I would love him on the podcast. You should. Well, he'll do it. He absolutely. He's an attention whore. He loves it.

14:16I'll be like, absolutely. I love that you're not. A gorgeous woman wants me on her podcast. I'm not going to speak on behalf of like bipolar. He's an attention whore. But he's an attention whore. Fact. I mean, we have, we, we, we love to take the piss out of each other a lot. But what I was saying is like, I, my whole life kind of identified as crazy. I was always kind of kooky. Like I was always like a bit odd, but like very popular, not to brag. Like I was never bullied. I was always popular. I had, I've always had so many friends, but I was always the one who was like a little bit mad who had like neuroses that kind of weren't normal.

14:48But my friends just were like, would take the piss out of it. but it was kind of seen as, you know, never seen as like an issue that maybe I had. But I've always called myself crazy, I guess, as like a defense mechanism. So that like when I'm dating men, for example, I'm like, I'm a bit mad. So that like then when I like get really anxious and freak out, like I've already told you that I'm a bit mad. Anyway, I one of my best friends, James Blake, I'm just going to say that that's who he is. because also, not to like name drop, but I want to give him the credit for what he said to me in this conversation.

15:24I just like that the surname was just like a beat after. Yeah, because I was like, I want him to get credit for this because it was a conversation that really did change my life. And he's a genius. And he's a total genius. And he's one of, if not the most amazing man that's ever existed in my life. I love him so much. But we were talking like one day and I was talking about myself and I was talking about myself in the context of like relationships with men. And I was like, you know, because the thing is like I'm crazy and he just really like calmly but did snap he was like I'm so sick of hearing how many times you refer to yourself as crazy like you've you're telling yourself this story that you're crazy and then it means all these other people that treat you badly get away with it because you blame yourself because you're always like I'm crazy I'm the one that's like made them behave this way and he was like you need to stop doing that because it's Like it really matters how you refer to yourself.

16:16And like hearing you talk about yourself is crazy so much when like everybody else sees you as this like really interesting person that they're drawn to and like want to be around and want to hang out with. And I was like, fuck.

16:28Fearne Cotton: It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Totally. I have lived it. I get it. I used to, when I went through a period of got sacked from a few TV shows back in the day and I started to get a bit paranoid. And then I started to say, yeah, well, I'm just like a bit weird. And I just, you know, I'm not right for anything. And I'm just like not as good as all the other presenters. And I started to say it so regularly that then the phone didn't ring. No more TV shows. Because you speak it into life. There is something so magical about what you're saying, how often you say it, and there being an end result to that.

17:05Fearne Cotton: I know. No, and the thing is, is that I think when you have like I've, you know, recently been diagnosed with ADHD, but I've always had really bad anxiety and OCD. And when you have a brain that like focuses on something and then goes, you know, like the way that my brain, like a lot of people works is like, I'll have a thought and it's a horrible thought. And then instead of saying that's a horrible, irrational thought, I will spend two weeks going down loopholes with that thought while I'm having conversations, while I'm on stage. while I'm like walking the dog, like constantly having these like really negative conversations about myself in my head.

17:42And that is getting better. But I think the problem is, is that like I've spent my whole, so now and actually weirdly the book I bought when I was picking up the dog shit really, really changed like how I saw this. It was this book by a Japanese monk or something. And it was all about like, obviously this is so basic to say, but like when you have these thoughts, how to like snap back into reality, bring yourself back into your body, be in the actual moment with what's happening. Because my problem is I'm time traveling all the time in my head. And I'm like, you know, worrying about things that are going to happen when I should just be enjoying something amazing that's happening right then.

18:22And I think, yeah, I think the crazy thing is the best example of like what the show is kind of like trying to speak to. Like you said, I don't think many people actually think I'm crazy. maybe like one of my ex-boyfriends yeah but that's it yeah and I was we were both a bit crazy in that relationship but how long I've spent convincing myself I'm crazy is something that like should

18:47Fearne Cotton: really be recognized definitely do you know what I learned this thing in therapy where you can actually do like a practical exercise where say you get a big sheet of paper and you write down all the things that people in passing have said about you or maybe if you're in the public eye it's been on a screen but it could you know it could just be like your auntie a teacher at school one of your mates so you're bossy you're a big mouth whatever it is you write them all down cut them out you quite literally physically stick them or like post-its to your body and you stand there and you look at them all like okay this person called me a dickhead this person said I was thick and then quite ceremoniously you take them off like something about the action of like I'm taking the they're not mine they're not mine I don't that's someone else's projection of whatever's going on with them, I am taking them off.

19:33Fearne Cotton: Because like you say, not only do we, we're wearing these labels, we're then repeating it and repeating it. There's something really interesting. There's, I found out recently the true meaning of the word abracadabra. This sounds fucking random what I'm about to say. I'm so in. It's an Armaic phrase. I'm going to have to actually Google the exact translation because this is exactly what we're talking about. So the word abracadabra has a meaning. Yeah. True meaning of abracadabra. It's a long word. The Armaic meaning is I create as I speak. So you go abracadabra. There's the rabbit out the hat.

20:13Fearne Cotton: Same thing. I'm crazy. You create as you speak. And learning that was so game changing for me. Like, oh my God, I'm literally like magicing my worst nightmares into reality by repeating that one thing again and again. And it is that simple that if we can get into the habit of going, I'm great, I'm good, I'm a kind person, whatever it is that you need to say, replace it with that and you feel lighter, you feel better. I know and that's the thing that that's where I'm at right now I'm in a phase right now where I'm really working on that I'm and and I guess that's why I love writing stand-up because I do it as I go like I'm figuring this out as I'm writing a show like working on like a stand-up comedy show it's like you're on stage and then I'll stop and I'll be like fuck this is what the show is about because as I'm saying it out loud I'm like this is what I want to say and also you're getting feedback totally totally but it's like it's not even that like you know it's not like oh this is the show that everybody's gonna love it's like this is the show I want to create this is what I want to be saying over and over again because my last tour was it was the show was about an abortion and it was I don't regret it it was like an amazing show and I know it helped a lot of people but it was really bad for my mental health performing a show I did it maybe like 50 times every every time I was reliving this thing that had created a lot of trauma for me it was so bad for my health and so now to just do a show that's like really fun and it's but it's about perception it's interesting but it's like really fun and I'm there thinking I'm in a place now where like I don't have something really painful that I need to exercise through my stand-up I just have these like things that you know I'm going through that are very human so I'm really excited basically Like I'm excited about doing a show that doesn't make me cry after every day, every time.

22:02Fearne Cotton: I mean, it's such a matter of trial and error with this stuff, knowing that with the work that you're doing, the platform you've got similar to what I'm trying to do. You know that if you talk honestly about things, you can really help people feel not alone in whatever they're going through. But it is a fine line between it then being completely detrimental to you. And I've certainly learned that the hard way by, you know, saying something and I thought, oh, God, you know, usually when it's more off the cuff rather than in a book where you've got a bit more time to think, do I want this in print forever?

22:34Fearne Cotton: And it just to be sat there. But when you are just, you know, in this setting or you're doing a talk, you do have to quite literally trial and error. Like, does this feel OK to say this? And sometimes it's not worth it. Like, do you have your own set of rules as to like, that cannot go anywhere near my standup show? This is for me to figure out. I do now, but I didn't then. I think like the thing that I now know with hindsight, which is why I'm glad I did it, that that was way too soon. It was way too soon. Like I had literally like basically had like one period. I didn't have a period for six months after my abortion.

23:13like there were loads of complications and and lots of stuff happened and and then I I was just mentally very unwell and I'd had like two periods and then I started writing the show it was just way too soon like it I was so in it but I did it because I at that time was like the only way I can get through this is if I know it's happened for a purpose and if I know that I'm gonna get something out of it otherwise I can't rationalize what I'm going through so I had to do it and I'm thrilled It was an amazing success. And, you know, it was it really did help so many people like how, you know, what the stuff that you do does.

23:51But I think sometimes there needs to be more time.

23:54Fearne Cotton: Yeah. And I and I now know that, you know. Yeah. You don't want to be, you know, coming off stage and then having to reprocess everything. You know, that's something to be doing away from the public domain so you can work it out. because you didn't just say how can i provide these investments you'd be how do i holistically provide everything how do i bring in the legal the accounting all this and do it at a price point no one else is doing it learn more about how we approach wealth management at creative planning.com slash integrated hey it's page from giggly squad and i want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products you have to go to sephora i'm obsessed with the one-size liquid blotting paper spray it's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours.

24:39Fearne Cotton: It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kay Alley Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora. While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here.

25:14Fearne Cotton: They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale, digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

25:40Fearne Cotton: I found your book not only incredibly entertaining, but massively helpful because... Oh, I actually forget I wrote that. That book is so great. You know, I wrote that when I was like 24. It's so brilliant. In COVID. Do you know what I think is so commendable is that you were willing to say certain things that were going to instantly diminish shame for other people. I mean, shame's on the front cover, so you know what you're getting straight away. and I find that subject endlessly fascinating and it's a feeling that I drowned in for years and obviously as we all know shame breeds in secret you keep it in the shadows and it gets bigger and bigger to the point where you just feel like you're suffocating and for you to simply say certain things whether it's past experiences you've been through it just fucking blows out the water other people can go oh I don't need to feel ashamed about this or like you know whether it is looking for male validation or things that have happened to you that you regret it's just so refreshing to have that out in the open because so much for people suffering lives in secret and it just becomes this huge monster and it doesn't need to be doesn't need to be yeah I know I think like it's so it's so interesting because I mean that book is so funny to me because I actually really forget I wrote a book because I was quite young it was during covid I wrote it really quickly and it all happened quite fast I think if I'd have had a bit more time and I actually think maybe I should have had more life experience before I wrote it so sometimes I'm like I feel it gives me the ick a bit that I wrote it oh god I mean I haven't read any of my books but I know the first book I wrote I don't want to read that back it's just because I'm like oh I know so much more now and I I'd love to like and I will write another book one day and like stop offering me book deals please because I haven't got time because I get offered book deals all the time I know that sounds really ungrateful but it's like I can't I can't do it right now I've got but one day I'm gonna write a book you know a book another book that will be an extension of that which is like I have always and this is something that I think my parents would attest to have always lived my life in a very honest way.

27:56And that was different. I'm not shaming my family, but my family can be quite avoidant with things. And I've always been very like, I just say how I feel. If I don't, I feel unwell. Like I feel actually ill, which is sometimes difficult to be around because it's like, it builds in me. And then I'm like, oh my God, like I'm actually gonna throw up if I don't say how I feel. I'm not very good at understanding why are we not just saying what's going on here?

28:27Fearne Cotton: I can't bear those situations. Why is everyone not saying the thing? I hate that. I hate it. But what is that about us, do you think? Because I feel like with that, that is quite different, especially in English culture. In England, English people are quite like, you know, can be not repressed. I hate that stereotype. but definitely like you have to broach subjects really sensitively. Whereas I can be quite abrupt and people say this to me quite a lot. Like, and sometimes it can be quite, it can feel like I'm being quite harsh because I would just like say something. But I just, I'm like curious about how that happened.

29:05Fearne Cotton: I don't know. I just feel very tense when I know that there's bullshit around or like we're not talking about something. Or I think even with my mental health to a degree, there are certain things that are an absolute no-go where I'm like, I'm not ready to tell anyone about this stuff apart from a therapist. And that's where it should live until I feel like, okay, this is all digestible and I can talk about it. But some of the other stuff, I just think I would rather go, yeah, like I've had a shit time or I'm struggling at the moment or whatever, rather than pretending everything's rosy and perfect, which I don't actually think benefits anyone because it's a lie.

29:40Fearne Cotton: Everyone's got shit going on. But this is why I find the internet so difficult. Oh, yes. Because I think that we've lost, like, we have really lost the capacity to understand that, like, so many truths can exist at the same time. And so now, and we all do it. It's like we'll look at someone online and see them in a very two-dimensional way and then assume so many things about their lives. And their lives are not perfect. No one's lives are functional and perfect. I don't know anyone who has a perfect, functional life. Nor do I. And so, but this is why I find, again, coming back to that thing of like what we're talking about, like I don't like being fake in any situation, which again, it's definitely annoyed people in my life because say if there's someone I don't like or like I sort of say like I get allergic to people, like they bring me out in like a rash.

30:30Like if I'm around certain people, I'm like, I need an antihistamine otherwise I have to leave. I won't say who while we're recording, but there are certain people that just like bring me out in hives and I find it really hard to be fake. And I find it really hard to be like, hi, how are you? And then I get told off and I'm like, but I don't want to not be completely transparent. But then sometimes that can be rude. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it.

30:58Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I get it. It's hard. But I think certainly with your book, your stand up, how you go about your business on social media, that level of truth is helpful. It's helpful. It's like busting myths and talking about shit. One of the big things for me with the work you do is the discussions when it comes to female sex, female pleasure. There is still so much stigma, so much shame disproportionately on women when talking about those subjects. And you're like, let's chat about it. And do you know what's so, I mean, I can't tell you how much it bothers me how many times I meet women who like do not prioritize like their own pleasure sexually.

31:44And I only get into these conversations because women talk to me about it because I've spoken about it for a long time now. But it really makes me sad because I'm like, life's really short. Like you should be having orgasms. Like that's the best thing in the world. Like we should be having great sex and we should be enjoying every part of it. And I just, yeah, it makes me sad. Like I wish I could just buy everybody a vibrator.

32:09Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Do you know what? But it's this big cultural weird issue that's been there forever. You know, when I grew up, you've obviously got boys sort of giggling about wanking. And if a girl was to mention masturbation, it was like, grace and it's like oh my god we actually had Florence Bark on here maybe four or five years ago we did a whole episode on female pleasure and masturbation and it was so liberating to go let's just chat about all of it right now get it out there and the amount of women that then contacted us like thank god you're talking about this because it's still that even for women of my age there's still this like weird myth around it that women women's pleasure is so far down the list well it's almost like gross it's almost like seen as like a great like something that like women shouldn't do like yeah because one of my favorite facts i don't know if you already know this but i'll tell you it because i love thinking about this but back in the day like i think it was like the 1800s it was like pre-freud because freud is the one who came along and busted this myth back in the day it was believed that for a woman to get pregnant she had to come so the female orgasm was prioritized because it was thought that to get pregnant she had to have an orgasm then it got discovered that that wasn't true right and it was freud that like came along and then said some you can have a baby with bad sex yeah exactly but like how sad is that because I think that sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just tell men that that was true because...

33:45Well, maybe not actually because they don't want to get me pregnant. Who wants to get me pregnant? I'll write a show about it.

33:57It is mad. But how mad is that? Isn't that mad? There was so little known about the clit back in the day and it was thought that that was needed in order to procreate. and so you know women must have had more orgasms or less orgasms when you know they were trying to knock the woman out.

34:15Fearne Cotton: There's also a weird thing when looking at like women getting older you know Madonna constantly shamed for trying to be sexy it's like if she feels sexy she's sexy why is that a problem to anyone? If she wants to lie on a bed gyrating with tights on at 60 good on her totally. Why is that a problem for people like that when we get to a certain age we must wear a smock and start making sourdough bread. Like, let women be sexy if they want to be sexy. But don't you think people don't know what they want from women? So it's like people say, like, be who, you know, like, I love seeing women, like, age in this way and not give a fuck and then they do it and they're like, fuck you.

34:52And that's women, by the way. Like, women will be shaming Madonna. Of course. Something I love is what Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin have done in Grace and Frankie. I don't know if you watch Grace and Frankie. No, I know of it. I know of it. I mean, it's just like a very cosy show that I watch whenever I'm sad. but it's about these two older women, much older. You know, they're in their late 70s, 80s in the show. And so much of it is about orgasms and their sex lives and actually their characters create a vibrator brand for older women who have arthritis and that's what their characters do on the show.

35:22I need to watch this. You have got to watch Grace and Frankie. I worship that show because I think that it makes me really look forward to getting older. Jane Fonda and Lily Tonle. And then in real life, they have such a cool relationship. And actually one of the things that my show is about is something that I admire in like much older women, like, you know, women who, when women get to that age, like Jane Fonda Lily Tomlin's age, historically they are deemed as invisible. Like they're invisible to the media. Like we don't want to see them anymore. We don't want to hear from them anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just like don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gaze.

36:00They're not appeasing to like gatekeepers anymore. They don't have to because they've like, they've passed that one of the things i talk about in my show is i want to be that now yeah like i want to be that i want more women to be that way when they're younger yes why are we doing that why are we caring so much about like what people online say about us or like what men think about us or whether or not we're being like too much or too anxious or too emotional we're wasting so much time we'll get to that age and think fuck it's so liberating not to give a fuck yes and i really

36:35Fearne Cotton: want to be that now me too I mean I think about this constantly because I went beyond people pleasing back in the day and it was just all about either me ensuring that nobody around me was in discomfort because I couldn't bear it slash my uh projection and image needs to remain perfect at all times because that's just the nature of the job I'm in and it must remain that way. And you don't want anyone to think you're difficult. No you just must be pleasing in all areas and I luckily I've got some really brilliant intergenerational friendships of women in their 60s their 70s and they say exactly what you've just said like you just do not care you get to a point where you're just like whatever and you know the fucks get less but why we're not doing that now is the big question I think for so many women listening to this there'll be a fair few men I'm sure too but we have a lot of women listening to this who are my age your age who'll be thinking that's what I want I want to just totally be myself in any situation and live my life happily now not wait till I'm 80 where the hell do we start well this is what I'm trying to work out at the moment I really am trying to figure this out because you know I I am having uh I'm thinking at the moment about like I apologize a lot for like being anxious right so like whether it's like someone I'm dating or like in a work environment or whatever like if I'm having a bit of a sort of like moment where I'm overthinking something I'm like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I'm so sorry and I'm trying to stop doing that because like I'm I shouldn't be sorry like I'm allowed to have feelings about situations that I'm in without having to constantly feel bad and feel like ashamed of them and I think that we I think the problem is is that we don't have enough examples there are some incredible examples of women who are like mine and your generation like right now who like don't give a fuck right like Cardi B I'm obsessed with like I feel Cardi B is just so herself she's so unbelievably herself I mean like maybe you know she's not but like to me she just seems truly like really like at one with herself and I watch her and I'm like oh my god like she's incredible but I think how do we get there is something I'm really trying to unlock at the moment because I don't want to waste more time like caring what men care not obviously I care I should care what men I'm in relationships with think about me but really caring about like male validation and like not wanting to be kind of like a really loud opinionated girl because my whole life men have found me super annoying.

39:17We need more loud opinionated women.

39:19Fearne Cotton: We just do. I wonder if it's less about not caring and more about you can still care, but you can deal with the discomfort of someone going, I don't like that you're really loud. And you're like, God, that feels awful, but I'm going to be all right. That's a very good way of thinking about it. Because I don't think it's necessarily sustainable for us to go, I'm just not going to care forever until I die. We should obviously care. Yeah, and we just do. I think you're right. I think it's about saying, okay, like that person finds me annoying. Like I, I once like was in a sauna and like basically I talk quite loudly and I was telling a story in the sauna to like everyone in the sauna who I'd just met, like literally I've just met all these people in the sauna.

40:02And then this man in the sauna like snapped and was like, your voice is so irritating. It's actually sending me into a psychosis. And I was like, who says that? A man, like a man, right. A man who finds a man, men, certain men, I'm not joking, Fern, find my voice really jarring because it's loud. And I also sound very self-assured when I speak. Like I sound a bit like my dad, like me and my dad have quite. But again, that's what we need. I know. But some men, definitely not all of them are like, whoa. And it's like there's a man over there speaking exactly the same way. You're not going like, whoa.

40:40It's like there's something about it that like rattles them. And I'm never changing it. No, no. I'm never going to change it. You must not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be in saunas sending men into a psychosis. Good. Like there should be like, you know, a mental health team outside the saunas that I go into.

40:58Fearne Cotton: I think there's maybe that man, there's like a mum issue going on. Definitely with something underlining going on. And I'm sorry to that man that like I upset him. You shouldn't be. but it is in I find it super interesting the voice thing I do because I feel like that has been a recurring theme in my life is men telling me to stop speaking so loudly that to me is absolutely bonkers but none of my female friends care no of course I don't there's some weird correlation to what I'm about to say but we know from looking at data from podcasting that a female podcast host I'm not just talking about myself in this sort of like narcissistic way here but like me or elizabeth day or any other brilliant you know female voice i'm not calling myself brilliant but like elizabeth you are brilliant fucking love yeah but any other women who are doing their thing online in podcast form will mainly attract a female audience it will be disproportionately female like 90 i'm talking and then you get a few like straggler men who are listening if you look at a male-led podcast which there are many who we love they will somehow yeah gather a very mixed bag of men and women who are happy to listen to them and when you quiz you know I sort of put an Instagram post out about this about a year ago or something whenever it was and a few men came back saying yeah it's like the subject matters that you're talking about And I was like, I've had Gareth Southgate on, David Harewood, Ian Wright.

42:32Fearne Cotton: Men talking about all manner of subjects and some very male skewed like football. Quite literally talking about the psychology of football. But I'm told it's the subjects that I'm talking about. So there is something very interesting about, I think, an assertive female voice that some men do not like. Or it's just like we can't. It's like the wellness thing. Men think that's not for me because there's a lot of females out there talking about it. I think it's because, because I see this in stand-up as well. I bet you do. If you went to see a Ricky Gervais show, it would be a mixed audience, right?

43:07When I'm going to go see Nikki Glaser, it will be all women, right? And Nikki Glaser, both absolutely brilliant stand-ups, but Nikki Glaser is an unbelievable stand-up. Men should be appreciating her work. She's an incredible comedian. I think it's that they don't like not all of them but the ones who don't consume this don't like a woman being on a stage having a microphone and they don't want to give their money to go and sit and listen to a woman talk sometimes about men as well on a stage and whereas a woman will happily go and watch a man well we're used to it it's our whole existence right but even if they're talking shit about us we're able to be like that's funny that's a funny joke if it's like a good observation if it's an astute observation about women I'll appreciate the joke but I think it's that yeah I think you're

44:03Fearne Cotton: absolutely right I mean I think you probably got more of an acute understanding of this than most people having grown up in the world that you did which is the world of politics where predominantly we see men in power telling us how shit's going to happen yeah and what's going to go down how has that informed how you well I think a lot and I think one of the reasons why I have this this the way that I am is because I emulated my dad like you know in some ways now in my older age I'm really trying to emulate my mom because my mom's like incredible and and is very like emotionally intelligent and you know like I could talk about her for hours but growing up I just remember thinking oh there are all these men and they're having all these serious conversations and people are listening to them how do I be like one of those people okay I have to talk loudly I I have to sound really confident.

44:49I have to take up space in every like room that I go in. And I became that like I really did. And that's why I'm a complete dichotomy. Is it dichotomy? Like, yeah, because inside I'm not like that inside. I'm incredibly anxious and very insecure and have so many issues, which, you know, is obvious, like through this conversation. but from a really young age I learned to mask as this sort of like version of myself who was like yeah I'm what and like was always like that like was always like that like as a kid I remember like in primary school uh someone told me that a boy had called me fat in the playground and I was like in year one or year two and I went up to him and I punched him because I was like you don't call me fat and then I got obviously got in so much trouble but I remember thinking don't let people you know don't let people be mean to you like you have to be like like kind of like a man but I think that actually affected me because I think it meant that I never really expressed how I felt a lot I was always felt I had to be this kind of like slightly not intimidating but like I couldn't be that like uh the way that I am now which is like so multifaceted and now you know I think it's meant that I'm a bit of a confusing person to get to know.

46:08Like one minute I am quite like abrupt and sort of say what I think. Then the next minute I'm feeling super anxious and I'm like, do you even like me? Yeah. And it's confusing. I'm like that.

46:17Fearne Cotton: Yeah. In parts of my life, I'm so confident and I know exactly who I am. And at other times I'm like, oh my God, everyone hates me and I hate myself. And what do I do? And I think we're just, we're like this. hey it's page from giggly squad and i want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products you have to go to sephora i'm obsessed with the one size liquid blotting paper spray it's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours it's unreal there's also the summer friday shade drops spf 50 which basically lives in my bag at this point Oh, and the Kayali Eden plush pair smells so good.

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47:49Fearne Cotton: I'm so fascinated with, you know, because reading your book, you hear about these moments where you're at number 10 Downing Street, Putin's turned up and you're not allowed in the room. And you're like, wait a minute, normally I can sit with Tony Blair. Why am I not allowed in that room there? But to see that and witness it, but to kind of understand the rules of power and you're not being taught that you're observing it, you're imbibing it just from being in that environment. I think we can all pick up tips and tricks, whether they're for the good or not, to walk into a room, like you say, and take up space and be heard and be a voice because you saw it and you could therefore mimic it.

48:26Fearne Cotton: It doesn't mean you always felt it. You can use it. You can mimic it. You can. Yeah, you can take it. And I think that my dad is, he's less so now. He's definitely softened in his older age. But back then he was an intimidating person. I mean, you had to be, surely. Totally. And that's why he got the like, you know, sort of characterizations that he did. And like Malcolm Tucker and that sort of like idea that he was this like controlling and kind of aggressive like spin doctor type. But he definitely was an intimidating person. And I do remember as a kid thinking, I want to walk into a room and people to be like, oh, like that.

49:09which I don't now because I don't want to be that way. I want to be kind of like chilling in the corner, gossiping. Like I don't want to be that way. But I remember as a kid thinking that's how you survive in this world. That's how you have to be. And so I think in that sense, that's how it influenced me. And then I think just being around it kind of made me hate politics. Like I'm very political now, but I definitely feel, I don't know. I just feel like it's so male dominated and like there are so many women who do like Tessa Jowell who was like my godmother basically we're like not religious but she was sort of that fairy godmother in my life and she was an incredible politician and she did so many incredible things and like she was amazing and such an amazing woman to grow up around to see how a woman can deal with those men and deal with those spaces but still be a woman and still be like really in touch with her like emotional side and so empathetic and tessa was like the first person like when my mom's dad died like tessa was the first person that came around because my mom's dad died when i was like three weeks old and my dad had just started working for tony blair it was like a really really crazy i came into the world at a very crazy period of my family's life and tessa was just so you can be both yes and and knowing that you can be both now and knowing that you you can be hard and you can be in rooms and and not be difficult but say what you want and advocate for yourself you also can be very soft and check in on people and be open about how you're actually feeling and those two things can exist at the same time they they can but I'm sure that's not what you were necessarily seeing in that sort of 90s yeah male dominated political environment and then of course

50:56Fearne Cotton: when your dad left the Labour Party, he left Downing Street, he comes back home and he falls into a big period of depression. And you're what, nine? Yeah, I was nine. And so, you know, you've gone from seeing your dad walk into rooms with Tony Blair and everyone's kind of stands back and stands up and there's level of respect, there's instant power to someone who's kind of diminished to someone who's in bed or on the sofa all day. How did you compute that as a kid? I found it really confusing and I think it's definitely impacted sort of how I relate to other people in some ways because I think I found it really hard as a child to understand that someone could be on the TV and look one way and be together and like on.

51:48and then at home not be able to speak or get up or speak to me. And I used to do, I used to try like everything I could when he was really depressed to like, you know, we like loved the film Made in Manhattan. Like me and my dad would go and watch, he obviously just fancied J-Lo, but like. So good. But we would go and like, I'd like drag him out of the bed. We'd go to the O2 Center on Finchley Road and we'd go and watch like Made in Manhattan, Cheaper by the Dozen. I remember watching Cheaper by the Dozen with him and he was coming out of a really bad spell of his depression. And at the end of Cheaper by the Dozen, it actually makes me cry.

52:25I'm going to try not to cry. But at the end of Cheaper by the Dozen, there's this scene where like all of the kids like run towards Steve Martin on the pitch and they're like coming back to him. And I turned to my dad and he was crying. And that was like a good sign because he was like feeling something. And I remember thinking, oh, he's like coming out of it. So I think like I am because of that, I'm very emotionally intelligent and I can always tell when someone's not okay. I can pick up on it because I was doing that when I was really young. And actually, I was so young that I was so naive as well.

53:00So I got to try and help him in a way that was very innocent. But I did also take it personally because you're a child.

53:09Fearne Cotton: You're a kid. You're a kid. I mean, at what point or has he ever gone, hey, this is a problem that I've got. And this is or were you in the dark? No, no, we weren't in the dark. They like they were really honest with us. And he would be really honest. He would say and he still does now. Like my dad gets into like, you know, he gets depressed now and and he'll say like, I'm not I'm not in a good way. And to be honest, this is maybe like too honest of me to say, but it's kind of why I don't listen to his podcast. like there are other reasons that I don't listen to his podcast because you know I have this joke in my show but I'll say it now which is like if I wanted to listen to my dad argue with a posh entitled nepo baby cunt I would just start an argument with him

53:54but it's also because like sometimes I'll hear his voice and I can hear he's depressed and no one else can hear he's depressed but I can hear he's depressed and I can't handle it because I feel too sad I feel like he's like he's this like old man sorry dad but he's also like a baby in my in my mind as well in some ways and and it's it's so confusing and I think as I'm now in my 30s I'm really figuring out like kind of what how do you deal with that in any relationship yeah like father daughter mother child friendship romantic relationships how are you supposed to deal with it and when you do take it personally which is totally normal how do you deal with that without making that person feel more ashamed and more guilty and it's fucking hard yeah it's really fucking hard it's really

54:49Fearne Cotton: hard I mean I think only from experience probably from being on both sides of a dynamic like that I think yes you do take it personally and I guess the only thing you can do if you're the person the receiving end of it or you're in the orbit of that person going through a tough time is to go I can see your pain like I see it I get it and that's often all that person needs isn't it because I think our tendency is always to try and fix it like what can I do and you can't you know there's very often nothing you can do apart from be there and witness it and say that you're witnessing it and it's it can be torturous to do that hey I'm not trying to therapize you in any way at all but do you think there's any connection between that what you've just talked about and taking it personally and kind of wanting your dad to maybe whether it's like you want him to see you or to go oh you're my little kid let's go to the cinema and having looked for male validation over the years 100 100 and um you know i i've definitely in parts of my romantic life been very drawn to men who like you never know if they're coming or going kind of like in my 20s that was a lot of the time the relationships i kept finding myself in was like they're there one minute and then they're gone and I'm not saying that's what my dad did but something I am familiar with is the feeling of like someone being present and then suddenly them like not being present even though they're there and that is a familiar feeling I think having a parent with mental illness like that makes you both incredibly empathetic and also very very sensitive and so I am very very sensitive and I'm just a very sensitive person and I'm now just saying that and not being ashamed of it and just saying I am sensitive because life has made me that way basically.

56:52There's also something

56:53Fearne Cotton: really brilliant about recognizing like patterns like that because all of us every person falls into usually unless you're particularly self-aware the familiar whether it works for you or not it It could be the worst place for you to be at. You're like, this feels familiar. There's a weird safety to the dysfunction of it. So going with a guy that you know is only going to be there half the time mentally or practically in the room with you. It's like, yeah, I get I know this dance. I know it doesn't work, but I know it. And it's really hard to break that cycle. It is. And also we sometimes do it to try and resolve a story from our past.

57:30like we're doing it because we want to prove that that actually can have a better ending and I'm not talking about my dad here because my relationship with my dad like we have a great relationship and like you know he's a complicated person I'm a complicated person and like when we've tried to work together goodbye never forever again like we get asked to do stuff together

57:50Fearne Cotton: Googlebox though come on you guys are a fucking nightmare but you were so he was so difficult why because he was like like they'd be like right we're gonna watch this thing I don't want to watch it I don't want to say that no I'm not saying that no I'm not doing it are we done yet are we done yet he hates faff right he'd love this you come here you walk in you sit down he hates TV stuff yeah I get it it's actually one of the reasons why he can't he's quite bad with TV because he hates the waiting around and he can be like right what's going on I'm sick of this and he'll just say that because he's a man so he can get away with saying that and people are like Alistair Campbell what character what character because if I was there like right guys come on I've got places to be there like she's super annoying like who does she think she is but so but yes I think like to go back to that point I think that like we all do that in our own ways to try and sort of resolve things from our past and sometimes it is very helpful I've had relationships with men that have really healed me and like they're not happening now but they served a purpose in my life they taught me a kind of like feeling of safety and stability that I then needed to know existed and and and I'm really grateful to that and I thank those like there's like one man in particular that really did heal a lot of my like past wounds and so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and that's like kind of what you go through but yeah I mean a hundred percent like having a dad like him and I've got loads of bits in my new show about this but like it's definitely impacted my relationships with men for sure.

59:29Fearne Cotton: I mean, you go back to our childhoods and you can look, you just, even if they're not big traumas or whatever, there's patterns and it's really hard to break them, really hard to get out of the familiar. Right, you're going everywhere from Brighton to Norwich, is that right? After Edinburgh. How do you feel about touring? Are you okay with that lifestyle? Yeah, I am. I'm really excited about this song because I'm taking one of my best friends who's a comedian to open for me and I've never had a support act before. So fun. So she's not only like, she's called Alice Bryan. She's not only an amazing comic.

1:00:04She's fantastic. She's also like one of my people. Like we're so close and she like knows me really well. So I think she, that will be really fun. It will basically feel like we're going on holiday and I'm going to like, you know, we've got days off. I'm going to like take her, like we're going to do nice things. And like, I love touring in that sense because you go somewhere, like on my last tour yeah my whole family's scottish and uh me and my best friend jack who's also scottish we had a day off in inverness and i was like this is so cool like i would have never had like two days in inverness in this is epic i've been once i loved it we were there for bonfire night they take bonfire night so seriously we're the best dirty martini we've ever had in our lives and that's really fun it's really fun like getting my friends to come and like just doing nice things with them i just love hanging out fun yeah that's my vibe i i can't wait i'm come in.

1:00:53Fearne Cotton: Yeah, you're there. I'm there. I'm going to have a big party after the Palladium. Oh, come to Inverness. I'll go anywhere. Palladium, I'm there. Obvs. Okay, so to end, I'm going to ask you two things. And the first one is, by the way, still got the bag on your lap. Still got the bag. I'm obsessed that we've just done that whole chat with the bag on your lap. I know. We are making a happy place playlist. What are you putting on it? Oh. It's like the worst question ever because what are you going to choose? I have so many songs. I know. I have to pick one. I mean, you could have two. we'll give you two oh fuck fuck fuck fuck happy oh this is so hard this is really hard fun I know it's the worst question every time it's really hard um because I like think about my desert island discs all the time she's plenty guys obviously just waiting for Lauren to pick up the phone but they change all the time my desert island discs changes all the time and Can I get my phone really quickly?

1:01:52Get your phone.

1:01:53Fearne Cotton: I'm sorry. No, you need a deep dive. This is to be taken very seriously. I have a, oh my God, two doors. How should it be? Two doors for that, for that, for that sound protection. The thing is, oh, I've got the phone. I've actually got too many. I think I'm going to have to have an Oasis song, if I'm honest. Oh, right, okay. Yeah, I'm a big Oasis guy. Yeah, I love them. I went to the tour so many times. They were so great live. It was so good. I actually can't even cope with that. I wish I could watch that every day of my own life. It was so brilliant. Every day. Okay, can you just give me like, oh, this is the problem.

1:02:23And now you've got to wiggle down an Oasis song. No, I'm actually not going to do Oasis. I've changed my mind. Okay. Sorry.

1:02:29Fearne Cotton: Oasis was almost too obvious. Too bae. I want to be cool here. I'm trying to be cool. I'm trying to be like a cool, mysterious girl. I'm trying to think. We had Mary Berry last week. I want to come out with a deep cut of something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa. Yeah, left field. How does she know that?

1:02:49okay I'm trying to think of like songs that make me really happy when I'm driving in my car yes with the girls that's the thing like me and the that's the vibe we're looking yes me and the girls in the car the windows are down the windows are down it's boiling I mean okay this is the playlist I was looking for one second do you know what like maybe this is super bait oh this is bait but I'm going to say it. Sorry. I'm bringing my North London like naughty slang out today. Please do. Super Trooper.

1:03:25Fearne Cotton: Super Trooper. Is that already in the playlist? No. So me and one of my best friends, Tara, right, we once, it was Christmas Eve in North London and every year we would go to this pub called the Boston in Tufnel Park every year. Do you do this for karaoke? I don't really do karaoke. because I'm like, let them have their moment.

1:03:50I'm like, I get a mic all the time. Let my civilian friends perform. So I just sit there and go, shit, you're shit.

1:04:00Fearne Cotton: Flats pancake. Oh my God, that's so good. Okay, so you're not doing Super Trooper for your age. Actually, I don't need to carry it. Anyway, so Super Trooper, me and Tara, we got back from the Boston one night and it was Christmas Eve and like it was like I actually think it was like snowing this Christmas it was like really magical we'd walk back to my flat from the Boston we're in my kitchen it was just the two of us and we were so fucking drunk and it's Christmas Eve like four in the morning we knew our mums were going to be so angry at us because we were going to be so hungover and we put Super Trooper on and we like it was one of the most euphoric moments with a friend that I've ever had I actually could cry thinking about it and then I took them all to the ABBA voyage and Super Trooper is not in the fucking set list.

1:04:44I don't know if you know this. Nope. They're adding it. They've added it since the last time I went. But I love ABBA. I love ABBA. Obviously, such a bait thing to say, but I love ABBA and Super Trooper is like, if I want to pull myself out of a sad moment, I listen to that song and I think about me and Tara dancing in my kitchen.

1:05:00Fearne Cotton: Hey, I'm not looking here for like, let's get the weirdest track ever. When you go to a wedding, you want to hear songs you know. it's that simple to me I want Britney Spears Slave I want ABBA I want Be Witch Sailor V I was going to do like a really sort of like I was going to do like a sort of like 90s dub song no no and then I was like no I'm going to do Super Trooper because that song and ABBA in general just make me so happy that's what we're looking for it's just that's what music does it's the best okay so where is your happy place that's the next thing is it a place is it a person is it a metaphorical thing?

1:05:39Can I give you a happy place scenario? Yes. Okay. So my happy place, honestly, is in my flat. I've just bought a flat. I'm not going to say where I live because I'm stalkers, but I was about to say where I live. And it's got this balcony. And obviously, this is my first summer in the flat. And I've had plants planted. I'm not even going to say that I planted the plants has had a gardener come and put in an irrigation system so I don't have to do anything to them. So bougie, yeah. But the view from my balcony is just trees, right? So it's just trees and it's magical. I'm the only house that has the balcony because the old people, the only people who have got the planning permission and me and the girls, this is my dream scenario and by the way, we're about to have a heat wave but this is what I'll be doing for the future.

1:06:30This weekend. Me, the girls, my dog Eddie with a bowl of water next to her so she doesn't get dehydrated. We're there. We're drinking orange wine. Love. We're eating sushi. Yeah, I love it. And we just chat so much shit. It's my favorite thing ever. Same.

1:06:50Fearne Cotton: Chatting utter shikes for hours. Chatting utter bullshit for hours. With my girls and gays. Heaven. I want the rest of my life to just be that. Yeah, me too. I want to facilitate my life to be, I get to a point where I just have the house that everybody comes to to just chat shit. There's an alchemy in that. It is just the absolute. And when you're laughing so much, no sound comes out. That's my fave. You're laughing so much that like you, I actually have memories with my friends, like my friends from school, where I'm like, we all have the same brain. Like we are so in sync right now. Everything, we don't even have to say the joke.

1:07:30We're just looking at each other and we know the joke. I had a birthday party a few weeks ago I know we're supposed to be ending but had a birthday party a few weeks ago and it was the best party I've ever been to in my whole life it was just all my best friends and I have a lot of them and it was just I thought it starts at three by midnight people will be gone six in the morning not a single person had left like no one wanted to leave we were like this is electric my neighbours hate me I'm sure of course they do no one's made eye contact with me they detest you but it was worth it I won't do it again but it was worth it.

1:08:03So that is my happy place. Being with my friends, my dog being there, my friends.

1:08:08Fearne Cotton: Heaven. Yeah. It's everything. They're your chosen family. They're the people that you love. It's the best. It's the best. Grace, you are the best. So are you, Fern. Good luck with your tour. I'm coming. I can't bloody wait. And when we meet up, get me the blue or green version of that bag. I'm going to go and get you. Do you want blue? The blue was really chic. Blue or green? When we meet up for spicy margaritas, I'm going to bring you this. It's from Chapel Road Market. it was eight pounds i can't wait i'm gonna bring you on yeah i'm gonna get you matching love you grace love you thank you so much for having me oh fuck me that was good i needed that that felt like a therapy session in many ways i absolutely adored it and i can't wait to get my hands on that mini blue slash green plastic bag that is not big enough to put anything in i don't even have a dog so i can't put poo bags in it it's going to literally have mints in it and one door key because I've got so many keychains on my keys.

1:09:04Fearne Cotton: But anyway, love it nonetheless. Grace is going to be at the Edinburgh Fringe this August. So if you're heading there, you absolutely must go and see her show. She is fantastic. Right, a massive thanks again to Grace and to you. Love you.

1:09:39Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora. I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive.

1:10:18Fearne Cotton: Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora.

1:10:52Fearne Cotton: and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with ACAST. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.