Louise Redknapp: “I don’t feel good enough” Coping with loneliness and low self-esteem

0:00Hello, a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that reminds you to trust your gut. Today, I'm chatting to Louise Redknapp. I'm not an arsehole. So am I a nice person to work with or am I a good mate? Am I there for you 100 %? But the bits that I feel have always gone unnoticed is my ambition, my drive to keep on bettering myself and doing well, to get up every time the chips have been down. And believe you me, over the last few years, I have taken a full whack of abuse. I could have just carried on, been in the corner, and I was like, I'm just not going to stand for this.

0:39I am going to carry on doing what I love. I just want to carry on growing. Right, spring is on the way. The blossom in my tree in my garden is sprouting. Sprouting, is that what blossom does? Does it sprout? Does it blossom? It's blossomed. And not only that, this is big news, guys. Get ready. George the tortoise is out of hibernation. He's out. So George is now, we think he's 56. So I don't have to hibernate him. He hibernates himself. I just put a big bag of soil in the garden and then he burrows under it. Someone's now going to give me shit, an email going, that's not the appropriate way. I was told by the previous owners that's what he does.

1:13So I'm just going with before you email. Don't waste your time. Don't email me. OK, full stop. He goes into the big manor's soil and then whenever he fancies it, he just pops out. So last weekend, George is just roaming around the garden. It was great excitement. Me and the kids were absolutely freaking out. We have warmed him up in the house. He has had his first few meals of lettuce and kale and he's done his first shit. And let me tell you, after not shitting for four months, crikey, the cleanup operation was immense. But we are all overjoyed because we miss George when he's hibernating. Not only that, it's spring.

1:49I think when George comes out, we can officially say he's out, out guys. It's spring. So I hope you're feeling springy and sprung. And if you've not done a shit for four months that you've done one too. um so okay let's talk about louise i'm not going to try and create some sort of tenuous link there's no point i've been a fan of louise since the eternal girl band days and now she is back with new music confessions is the name of the album and it's out in may this chat was the chat that i needed we talked about all sorts of things we chatted about gratitude and not in like a wishy washy sense of just like i'm so grateful but in a way that it can really get you out of a dark place We talk also about the reality of being in a band in the 90s, which was brutal.

2:32And that might sound dramatic or disproportionate. It's not. It was brutal. You did not get days off. Also loneliness. Louise experienced so much loneliness in those girl band days and she's pretty upfront talking about it. So that's a really important bit. And also talking about those big, big lows that we fall into after huge life moments, namely divorce. That was a big one. So we cover all of this. Also losing confidence, identity. There's a hell of a lot in this chat.

3:24Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

3:58Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently, I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house, but I also know what isn't funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse.

4:41That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. No CD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to NOCD.com to book a free 15-minute call. They are here to help. Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, the founder of Olive and June, and this is exactly why we created the Gel Mani System. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our gel polish that lasts up to 21 days.

5:26Each manicure with our system comes out to just$2. That's right,$2. No more$60,$70,$80 salon trips that take hours. Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask you where you got your nails done, you're going to proudly brag that you did them yourself. And here's a little something extra. Head over to oliveandjune.com and get 20 % off your first gel mani system with code DIYGEL20. That's code DIYGEL20 for 20 % off your first mani system at oliveandjune.com slash DIYGEL20. Right, okay, to our gorgeous conversation in a hot little second.

6:06But first, some very exciting news about this year's Happy Place Festivals, which we are thrilled about. London, we're going to be back with you on the 12th and 13th of July. But, but, but, but, but here's the big news. Our new London home is going to be at the completely stunning Gunnersbury Park. There are loads of super easy public transport options so you can breeze on in and start your magical day of meditation and breath work and live podcast and shopping divine. Cheshire friends, your Happy Place Festival is staying exactly where it's always been at the beautiful Tatton Park. We'll be with you on the 30th and 31st of August.

6:43So I cannot wait to meet you at Gunnersbury Park in July and Tatton Park in August. You can sign up for early access to tickets right now. Just head to happyplacefestival.com. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

7:17Hello, Louise. Hey. I mean, the funny thing is, it's the second time I've seen you today. I know. I interviewed you 10 minutes ago for the radio. I know. It's ridiculous. No, this is different though, this one, right? Different energy. We were talking about 90s nonsense and fun, but we'll cover some of that. But I think there's just so much I want to talk to you about today. I mean, first of all, obviously, you're out and about. You've got your new album out at the moment. It's got some big dance energy on there. Is that where your head's at? Where are you at mentally? Yeah, I wanted to make something upbeat.

7:45I always feel that if you're a woman and you write anything that's kind of really, you know, melicoddy or like just anything that's too laid back and slow, people kind of really read into everything and as, why, when. But that wasn't really my main reason for doing it upbeat. I actually just wanted an album of bops. So lyrically, it's very deep. I'd say the deepest album I've ever written, actually, by a million miles. But I think sense-wise and beat-wise, it's definitely much dancier than what I've ever done before. There's a song on there called Manifesting. Yes. How do you feel about manifesting?

8:23What's your take on it? Okay, so I think I'm quite a spiritual person as far as, you know, I do believe in the universe and all of those things and putting things in your path and things happening for a reason. But it's really easy to lose sight of that when you're going either through a tough time or, I don't know, just it's, I'm not great at kind of meditating and things like that. I really need to make more time and space for that. Oh, I don't, yeah. I'm just not good at that kind of thing. I'm more likely to go and jet spray the tiles outside. is meditating I'm the same I need to be doing a thing yeah I'm better off if I'm doing something cleaning the wardrobe out or just doing something but manifesting yeah lyrically it's quite cheeky it's just about manifesting your ideal man in a club somewhere but in a way of sort of what makes you tick what it is about that person's energy that you like so the tricky thing I think with manifesting and we've talked about it a fair bit on the podcast because I I love it I think we've got an episode coming up shortly by someone called Estelle Bingham and we'd go really heavy on into sort of how manifesting works, what it is and what it isn't.

9:30And I get tripped up quite often when things aren't going to plan with thinking this is all my fault. I must be in such a negative headspace. I'm attracting all of this negative stuff in. And then you end up beating yourself up and feeling like shit, that surely can't be the point of it. So it's a tricky one, but I think a fascinating concept nonetheless. I think I went through a stage of being thankful and manifesting in that way you know like when you feel your chips are down a little bit and you're like oh god am I ever going to get out of this sort of like dark hole that I'm currently in rather than sort of wallowing in that I started thinking right I'm going to like just being really thankful for what I do have so I would get up every morning and I found this really difficult because mornings are my worst time I hate the mornings.

10:14They're my favorite I'm obsessed I hate the evenings. Okay so mornings for me is when the panic sets in you know when you first So when you're right, you're like, is everything going to be all right? You know, whatever is going on in your life, whether you've got a record out, whether you're filming, whatever it is, the kids, is it going to be all right? So that first sort of 10 minutes of the morning, I'm like, can I cope with any of this? And then as the day goes on, I start going, OK. So I thought, right, rather than focusing on can I cope first thing in the morning, I'm going to be like, I am so lucky.

10:44And actually, I don't know if it was subconscious that I was coming on here today. and maybe I was just in a slightly different headspace. But I woke up this morning and was like, you know, I'm so grateful that I'm living in my house with my boys and I've got my dog at the bottom of the bed and I just made an album. I'm so proud of it. I was coming here. I was like, just focus on those things. I think in a weird way that's mind manifesting, like trying to just keep on looking at the positives. Yeah, it's no bad thing to do. I think it's a really healthy way to sort of help create that abundance is notice what even when things are really shit and we've all been through terribly shit things, finding those little glimmers or those base level things you can be grateful for is so, so important.

11:30Yeah. It seems like you're in a really interesting time in your life. And I think, you know, we are women of a certain age and we are experiencing life in new ways and taking hopefully learned experience with us to build our confidence or help us have more clarity about things. and it was really interesting. I read your autobiography before today and there's some really interesting stuff in there about how previously, and I imagine this is sort of like 20s, 30s, you wanted to show I'm this perfect wife with the perfect life and I need to show this and portray that version of myself. It definitely seems like you've lost that and you're not bothered about putting that out there or putting any image out there that isn't who you are, how you're feeling.

12:16I think part of that came from the early days of the music industry where everything was so polished, where now to write an authentic song is the only chance you've got of having a hit. Something needs to come from within for people to grasp something about what you're saying. I think back then, as long as it was all shiny and polished, then that was your bigger chance of being, you know, charting, being out there, being everything everyone else wanted you to be. so I think part of that sort of being the perfect wife the perfect mum thing actually just come from a roll-on of that and then sort of being in somebody else's media career as well like obviously being married to a sportsman where everything then needs to look all shiny and perfect and new and so I just think it's so easy to fall into putting the pressure on yourself to be as perfect as you can be at all times I do feel like we live in a different time now I feel like people are so honest which I love because it makes you feel better about yourself and not in a way where you want to see other people have a bad time or go through similar stuff but it just makes you feel more human and it makes you feel more accepted and actually whatever you're going through in life when other people are talking about the same things whether it's you know somebody you least expect it to come out and say I suffer really bad with anxiety like I'm like such a relief it's not just me because i thought i i'm such an anxious person and people would often say to me god i don't see any of that in you and i'm like inside i'm like peddling yeah like you wouldn't believe and when you hear other people coming out and saying that it just puts you into a headspace of okay this is normal yeah it's all right i think otherwise you do look around and go oh my god what is wrong with me why am i the only person here not coping and i'm so lucky right yeah Kids are healthy.

14:11And I'm still feeling like, shit, what's wrong with me? Yeah. That's the worst. But I think you're so right when other people come out and they story tell or they want to share, you know, extract from their experience. You're like, oh, my God, thank God other people are going through it. And actually, I think it takes you opening up often for even friends around you to go, oh, my God, me too. I didn't know you were going through this. Because it's so, you have to get into quite a vulnerable space to admit this stuff and to feel safe doing it. I think I've always touched on it in the last of the album before last, Heavy Love, which was coming out of a bit of a bad time.

14:45I think I touched on trying to be open and honest. But then I think I sort of rewound a little bit and looked at every word and every lyric. The same with the book and was so concerned of how it could be misunderstood, misrepresented in the press or what people might think of it or the judgment that might come from it. that I ended up kind of backpedaling a little bit and trying to change things. And I suppose so much of my storytelling is through music. And I think most probably for the first time on this album, I didn't backpedal once. I didn't even question a lyric or a line. I thought, oh, could people read into that wrongly?

15:22Does that sound bad for this? And, you know, maybe I shouldn't say that, which has been my whole life. Like that has been my whole life. Should I not have said that? Should Should I not have worn that? Should I not have behaved in that way? This is the first time, God knows what's going to happen, Fern, that I've gone, you know what, that's how I felt. Yeah, this is the new era of Louise. I'm so here for it because I think so, I mean, me and some of my teammates were just talking before you turned up about this notion of being the good girl. Yeah. And the pressure that we put on ourselves that we have to make all of these decisions so that people view us as being good.

16:02And actually, what does that boil down to when you reduce it down to its bare bones? It's good. I think we equate to being compliant and just going, this is what everybody else needs or wants me to do. And therefore, I'm not going to rock the boat. And I mean, in the book, you do touch on this because you say people have historically described you as nice. I mean, I can clarify, I've met you a million times and you are the loveliest person. But actually, is that enough? Like, do you feel represented by simply being called nice? I don't look at that as something that makes me happy. I look at that and I think, actually, if you know me, yeah, I'm not an arsehole.

16:40Like, in our industry, I'm always polite to people. I don't believe you can be doing it for as long as we've done it. If you're not a good person, if you're not easy to work with, there's always someone chomping at the bit to take your place. So am I a nice person to work with or am I a good mate? am I there for you 100 % but the bits that I feel have always gone unnoticed is my ambition my drive to keep on bettering myself and doing well to get up every time the chips have been down and believe you me over the last few years I have taken a full whack of abuse but you know what I could have just carried on sort of been in the corner and I was like I'm just not going to stand for this I am gonna carry on doing what I love and that might hit me in the face I don't know but I am gonna keep on going you know and be unapologetic for actually this is what I love to do and this is what I've spent 30 years doing and I just want to carry on growing yeah whether that be as an artist a mom a woman a partner you know whatever that that may be I just want to keep on learning from everything being a better person and yeah just enjoying it to the max as much as I can yeah I mean you're so right because it's no one human is one thing and I think using the word nice is so reductive in terms of like look at all the complexities that make up this human and who they are rather than oh she's nice and that just being the passing comment and not looking beneath at everything that's not only gotten you to where you're at but also is driving you forward and I I think, again, reading, I didn't know so much about your earlier years, but that sort of resilience that seems completely embedded in who you are.

18:23And I'm sure a lot of that comes from your mum, who I didn't know this until I read your book. She had you at 23. You were living in a mum and baby home for the first year of your life. That's not easy stuff. And I'm sure you can look back at your mum and your relationship as mum and daughter at that time and think, fucking hell, how did she get through all that? I mean, first of all, I think the nice comment, And I think I've played a part in that because I think I always remember an interviewer saying to me once that when they interview me, I say so much but say nothing. So I think just so guarded.

18:56So kind of. But that's protection, isn't it? Yeah. You're protecting yourself. I think I just give them what I feel they need to have. And I don't actually really let people in. I think I'm like that actually in life with people as well, with getting to know new people. It just takes me a while. But, yeah, seeing my mum, my mum fought for everything. like single parent, really young, mother and baby home. I didn't know my dad. So those early years were purely about fighting for everything. Like we had nothing. And I saw her always manage to do her best for me, you know, whether it be my singing and dancing class.

19:31I mean, she took me to elocution lessons. What a legend. Yeah, I mean, I lived in Lewisham and she's taken me to the town hall to do elocution lessons because she just said, I want you to grow up being able to converse and be confident in who you're talking to. So I owe her a great deal, actually. I really do because I think she could have so easily have just let me just ponder into anything. But it was really her selflessness of financially putting whatever she could have into me and kind of just giving me opportunities. and it's so interesting how almost by osmosis you're you're picking up all of that stuff as a kid like my mum doesn't give up my mum always tries to look for a new path or my mum will never take no for an answer and she's not imagining even saying this stuff to you but it's just you're seeing it and then that becomes you know that informs who you are as a person whatever I needed you know when I wanted to go to stage school and um by the time my mum then had met my stepdad and they were like there was just no way we could even afford to get you there let alone pay for the fees and I went for an ILEA scholarship with a backing track from Gloria againer like because I had no sheet music I wasn't doing those type of lessons I literally went up there with one pair of shoes and a backing track of I will survive by Gloria and remember sitting in the room thinking what am I doing here everyone had like their three pairs of pointe shoes and tap shoes and shiny jazz shoes and I had trainers and a backing track but you know what there must have just been something that just carried on fighting and that was her she sat outside and waited for me she got the money for the train fare to get up to the Barbican she sent me in there and she's like just go be yourself and yeah I mean I was lucky to get the scholarship and that changed my life yeah if we're really honest because if I hadn't have got into contours I think it would have been really hard to have carried on singing and dancing the way I wanted to yeah it's so amazing to be able to look back and reflect on all of that now like you know when we're kids we just see our our parents our carers as they're adults you don't really give it much thought and then I think when you have your own kids you can look back and go oh my god how did they do it yeah how did they do it and how where was the where did that energy come from and we're so little we're so little like I feel so fortunate between you know with the boys between me and their dad they have so many opportunities and so much of it comes down to them working hard and we both try and say this to them all the time you will only get anywhere if you put the hard work in doesn't matter what your second name is where you live it's you have to deliver and so I'm drumming home that to them all the time because I don't want them to think that anything in life comes easy because for me it never did no no but it stood you in such good stead because yeah you're still doing it and you're thriving still going yeah but you're and you're enjoying it which is the main thing you know I think if you start to lose sight of why you're doing it that's where it all starts to unfurl and you know it's I just think when we look back to you know the good and bad in our childhoods we can sort of see why we're in the exact position we're in now it's so funny I mean how do you think not knowing your dad has impacted you negatively or in any sense um do you know what I think I switched off from it really early I think when my mum met my stepdad I always remember the first time I called someone dad and I walked out the door and I went bye mum bye dad and like this kind of like feeling of like I've just used the word dad it's like the weirdest feeling um so I think from that moment on I just cut off the fact I didn't know my dad and he was my dad and he's been my dad ever since I think in the early days you know it's when you're really young it's not like you think about what a dad brings to the table it's just that normality of mum and dad you know parents evening mum and dad are coming along it's almost just a term you know my mum was enough for a mum and a dad and I had amazing grandparents um but the minute I think my mum met my stepdad and they had two boys I actually thought you know I'm I'm happy with my lot like actually I don't need to think it was only as I got older and had kids that I thought there is somebody out there that I could actually be walking down the street next to and I wouldn't know it was them I went through that period in my life of like looking at people thinking you know like he could be anywhere you know or they and you've never had contact no wow never yeah I mean I've got friends in a similar position who you know or they have actually found their parent they've never met and met them and it's been underwhelming and it's been a kind of a strange sense of I thought I was going to feel something more yeah I mean I'm sure it's completely different every time but it is I'm you know not surprised that you have that curiosity and that you went through that phase I had such a loyalty though to my mum and my dad who I you know he's my stepdad calling my dad um my loyalty to them outweighed any loyalty towards getting to know somebody or looking for somebody that I don't know like I knew even though I think they would have allowed me and supported me to do whatever I wanted to do I'm really good at putting myself in other people's shoes and I know that would hurt me, even if you don't want to admit it.

25:07So I actually thought, I don't want to hurt them in any way. So therefore, the hurt that they might get from me looking just wouldn't be worth what I know the outcome would be. So, you know, I sometimes think people make their choices in life and you have to allow them to live with that choice they've made. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them.

25:46Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

26:22Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, the founder of Olive and June, and this is exactly why we created the Gel Mani System. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our gel polish that lasts up to 21 days. Each manicure with our system comes out to just$2. That's right,$2. No more$60,$70,$80 salon trips that take hours.

27:00Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask you where you got your nails done, you're going to proudly brag that you did them yourself. And here's a little something extra. Head over to OliveandJune.com and get 20 % off your first gel mani system with code DIYGEL20. That's code DIYGEL20 for 20 % off your first mani system at OliveandJune.com slash DIYGEL20. There's the part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently, I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house, but I also know what isn't funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal.

27:41But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. NoCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to NOCD.com to book a free 15-minute call.

28:21They are here to help. I mean you went from being at your stage school and loving it and knowing that this is what you wanted to do to quite quickly at 15 having this opportunity to turn into a recording artist yeah join eternal yeah when you look back on that era and you know I started work around a similar age and it is a strange thing to look back on like how much of it has negatively impacted me how much of it was just fun and thrilling which is sort of the lasting memories I have but when you look back at that time and it was fast-paced and you were thrust into popular culture you know the peak of the 90s where you've got all these huge tv shows with millions of people watching and you're traveling the world constantly and touring with all these other big bands how was that period for you um again I you know going to stage school it's obviously what I wanted to do what I wanted to be but you kind of don't actually believe you're ever going to be that in a weird way you just think oh like at best you might get in a musical theatre show somewhere or something like that like you know if I'm lucky I might just you know scrape some money together and be a dancer in panto or something so yeah you don't expect that opportunity to come through the door but you know what I'm grateful every day of my life that it did and I think the impact on it I mean it didn't happen as quick as I think it looks like it it sort of happened but I think the impact of such a vast like such a normal human being all four of us were such normal human beings being kind of propelled into this completely another world I I think it takes its toll mentally um But I also think there's such an element of gratefulness that you can't even begin to allow yourself to admit that maybe you're struggling a little bit with it, because you feel so ungrateful.

30:18There's kids out there that would love that opportunity. You're like, and I'm sitting here homesick, or I'm sat here wishing I was back at home doing normal things. So you keep a lid on those emotions. Well, I definitely did for a long time. But what a head fuck, because actually, you know, we're allowed to feel whatever we're feeling. And if something is hard, and I've done that to myself, I've thought you cannot not enjoy this or you cannot feel bleak about this situation because there are people out there that would absolutely kill for it. But if those feelings are there, they're there for a reason.

30:50And, you know, you've described this homesickness where you just felt, you know, you wouldn't eat. You would sit in a hotel room just thinking, I want to be back home. And all of that was a bit of a catalyst for you to actually leave the band. And you were only 21 when you left. That's how strongly you felt about this. I think loneliness was my biggest part, my biggest downfall in being in a band, which you don't expect to happen. We're all different people. I mean, I was friends with Kelly at school, but it's very different from then being at school with somebody and hanging out and then two people that you've just met and you record together.

31:26the year but it's very different back then as well like we were lucky enough to be successful in so many countries but I feel like now artists have so much more of a voice I think back then you were so you know you'd get picked up I'd get a month's sheet of what I was doing every day and there was never a room for me to ring up and say actually that weekend I want to take off from work because it's my friend's 20th birthday and I really want to be there and enjoy it with my I need that kind of normality that weekend because you're in a band, so you can't manipulate the schedule because it's going to affect three other people that that particular show might be good for.

32:06So your whole year pretty much is mapped out. And it's literally every day we're talking. We're talking every day. I remember seeing bands around that era and you'd see that you'd interview them and then they're on something that night in Germany and then the next night. It's Christmas Day, New Year's Eve, your birthday. There's no day off. There wasn't a day off. And if there was a day off, you then was kind of like, I don't know what to do with myself now today because you've kind of lost touch with your normal friends and your normal element of life because you've just been sort of on this kind of bandwagon of doing everything.

32:39And I think the traveling part for me just got lonely. I think loneliness really set in of feeling alone, maybe being in my head too much, thinking too much and craving a sense of just people around me that gave me comfort. and it did finally take its toll actually. We was in America. I think we were going to do the Jay Lenner show or something like that and I was really struggling to eat just because I was just so like that gut feeling of like anxiousness and our management turned up and they were like, okay, you need to go home. You need to get, I need to get you on a plane. Like I looked unwell and I felt for the girls because there's been so much stuff that's gone in But for them, it must have been frustrating, though I would have loved to have had more moral support as a band and for us to have hung out together, done more together.

33:32It must have also been frustrating for them to see this person just kind of like wilting every bit of success. And so I was like, again, I beat myself up about that. But I went home. They talked me into recording a tapestry album like with the girls. And I just, I started it and I just thought, no, this is just propelling me straight back there. And I left and when I was in Brick Lane, went and bought a bagel and got a taxi home. A bagel will fix a most tuna problems. A bagel will fix it all. They are the best. Tuna bagel. But it's such a tricky decision to land on, even when that voice is getting louder and louder in your head, that you know this is not working and you know you've got to get out.

34:16And I think people can apply this to many different situations in their life. You know, deep down, what is right for you. You're still saying goodbye to a massive opportunity, traveling, seeing the world, visible success, which everyone's so obsessed with. Were you terrified that you would just never do anything again at this point? I was completely terrified, but I think I had reached such a low sort of point that that wasn't even a thought, the relief of just not having that pressure. And I feel so guilty saying it because I was like living a dream from the outside. I think you should feel guilty.

34:55I think we need to hear this shit because we all still assume that fame or that visible success is going to fix us. And it doesn't. No. It just doesn't. And I love what I do. Like anyone that knows me, that works with me, they know how much I love music. My happy place is completely on stage. It's when I don't think about anything other than what I'm there to do. It's the only time that I have peace, which is crazy because I should be on stage thinking about everything, you know, like what's coming next, what's dance move, what the lyrics are. The only time I have complete peace in my brain is when I'm on stage.

35:32That's when I don't think about anything else. The rest of the time, like the goldfish are swimming in a million different directions. But I think when I left the band, the relief of not worrying about where I was the next day, how long I was going to be away for, like that gut feeling of we would be in Southeast Asia and management or labor would call and say, listen, you've got to go back to the States. You know, stays just charted or something. And we've got a whole host of we're going to do just another five weeks. that's all we're going to do in another five weeks just to me sounded like a lifetime I was struggling I needed to go home I needed a hug from my mom I just needed like something and um yeah so I think when I left I never once thought about doing a solo album I never once thought about being a solo artist because I think people thought and I've often read that I was getting carved out for that I mean that was so far from the truth you just wanted to go home and eat bagels I really did.

36:33I just wanted, I wanted to hear like things like the Wimbledon sound tune, you know, like the EastEnders, like just things that were so familiar that you felt safe. But I think there's so many, and we've seen it throughout the sort of history of pop culture and pop music, that bands and artists aren't really looked after or asked, are you okay? Because it is seen as this sort of golden opportunity. And why wouldn't you just be grabbing it with both hands and going, yeah, I've made it. This is all great. And then we see people slip down slopes where they're not doing well because they're not being asked, are you okay?

37:09Or do you even want to do this? and you feel like you've said ungrateful or like this steam train's just going and you can't jump off you know it's you're certainly not the first person to have felt like I want some normalcy or at least balance and I think when you're in a band like that there is no balance because it's 24 7 I mean when you and you know again you've talked about this before it wasn't like you were like I'm gonna go and do a solo career now this all evolved and was an opportunity was was given to post leaving do you think you then managed to take back the reins a little bit did you have more autonomy as a solo artist I think just being I mean don't get me wrong it was still that kind of same you you were sort of very much governed by the label and management and what opportunities you had to carry on doing that so I did all the same things I think the only difference part that was really instrumental for me enjoying it and coping a lot more with it was you could surround yourself with people that were your rocks so you could have you know someone from your management team that you you got on well with like I had a lady called Wendy that was kind of played that second mum role where she was there she was honest someone to have dinner with every night when you're away for five six weeks at a time sitting in your hotel room on your own that's where the loneliness sets in but all of a sudden you've got four dancers that are coming everywhere with you people that have become your friends people that you can confide in you can wake up in the morning and go do you fancy going for a walk and a coffee it's the simple things in life that I think I missed out on in the band like just having that anyone up early anyone fancy you know if you're in America somewhere and your time's all over anyone want to watch a movie or just having that company and people that you could just be yourself in front of so being a solo artist I could create that I didn't have to ask permission to have someone with me where in the band I couldn't just expect someone to rock up on the tour bus that no one else knew so I got a bit more control back definitely and then life changed all over again because you met your ex Jamie yeah Through Robbie Williams, which again I didn't know, that's a great bit of the story.

39:26Robbie's like, meet this footballer guy. Oh, my new husband. But you talk about this time during your marriage where you were again seeking that sort of, those home comforts and normalcy and to be at home cooking and to have that married life. But actually, as much as you enjoyed that, your confidence in your work started to nosedive slightly. When did you notice that? Like what were the points where you thought, oh, my God, I just I'm losing that sense of confidence here. I think having like my first son, it took took us a long time to have Charlie. I had lots of fertility problems. So so much of those first few years were about that.

40:04I didn't even think about anything else. I think when I had my second son and I was doing it all again. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I was so grateful to be having him. But you kind of noticed that my life had kind of, I think my music career and any sort of a career was such a distant future. You know, when you become like just you feel so a million miles away from what you used to be that you could never, ever dream of going back there. because in your mind for the first few years you tell yourself you're going to go back to that it's all going to be fine you're going to love having your kids and you're going to be at home and it's going to be wonderful and perfect and then you'll go back to being that person and you'll go back to having hit records and you'll go back to being super sexy and everything you was before I think I started realizing that that's never coming back I'm a million miles away from how would I I don't even think I would know what to do in a studio I don't think I've sung for four years like actually sung anything other than kids songs to the kids badly in the car like would I even be able to I used to think I don't think I could sing a song from start to finish like that that seemed like a and this is someone that used to do a two-hour show like a full-on at Wembley to god could I sing a whole song ever again so I think the panic set in when it felt like a a million miles away from ever being able to do anything like that again.

41:33Do you feel like you've got your confidence back fully ever? I don't think I'll ever get my confidence back to where I was when that day I walked into Italia Conti and sung I Will Survive Without a Care in the World. Like, just belief that I was great. Like, I really wasn't, but I believed I was. I don't know if I'll ever get that confidence back, But I have to say my confidence dips, goes up and down. I can have a really good time where I'm really powering through and then I can have times where I question everything and I don't feel good enough, which I think is normal for a lot of people. I would love to say I think I'll be the confident human I used to be again, but I think it's going to take a lot of work to get there.

42:18It's hard. It's really hard. And I think there is something so amazing about that naivety that we have when we're younger, where we haven't had knocks in life and we don't feel beaten down by things. So we can bust into a room and be our true selves. And I think it's a strange paradoxical thing of, you know, maybe there are new layers of confidence that you feel when you get older, but equally there's bits that go and it's just constantly moving and shifting. and it's very tricky. Especially I think in our industry and I'm sure for a lot of women in a lot of industries but I know for me in music I might make a song that would be perfect on a number of radio stations yet just pure to my age or where I'm at in my life they wouldn't even get considered but maybe if somebody else that was 25 was coming out with that it might be a whole different ball game so I think you're fighting.

43:11Yes, because society doesn't view older women as having any value which is a big problem yeah and I never thought because I think we're lucky in the jobs we do that we have such a big voice and we can be heard if we choose to be and so many women the amount of messages I get and they're so unheard and I think we actually can be heard but I feel like I've got bigger walls to break down now than ever before and most probably do my best work my most authentic I've ever been as an artist but there's just another bunch of doors to kind of break down yeah it's doors forever yeah but but how wonderful that you are in that place where you can be so authentic because you've lived this full life already and you've had like you say you've had knocks and you've had so many peaks and troughs and moments that have really floored you The market's uncertain.

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45:33General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. NoCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to NOCD.com to book a free 15-minute call. They are here to help. One of the times that seems to have been the hardest for you was post-divorce. Yes. And dealing with the mental barrage of shit you were getting from other people and the outside noise.

46:17Where did that take you? Oh, I think for me, the lowest pretty much person could get to. Like just horrendous. I could never see a way out from how bad and how low I felt at the time. Like if I didn't have my kids, I just I think I would have just given up. Like I really do. I think I just knew that my kids were my everything and they needed me. But I can honestly say you're going through something so personal in your own turmoil, in your own way. But then to get the barrage of judgment and nastiness, I'd never realized people could be so unkind and say such terrible things. It blew my mind. Whatever the situation, whatever the circumstance, the nastiness that would be said.

47:08And even now when I think back, I can't even get the words out because I just can't understand that anyone can be so unkind and cruel to another human. Like I know it happens and I switch off from it and it taught me a really big lesson actually. And I live by this rule now. You know it's really easy when you're having a conversation with people. You're in a restaurant, you're having a drink with your mates and you can get drawn into a conversation and you end up saying something nasty about someone. to get a laugh, to get a giggle. I'm so aware of that now. I stop myself. I'm like, you know what?

47:42I know what it feels like to have people just firing off what they think, judgment, opinions, without I'm sure a lot of them even realising what they were saying. So I'm so aware of my own behaviour with that now. But I was pretty much as low as I think a human could possibly get. Do you think a lot of that was to do with the fact that you were taking on all of that outside noise and actually believing it? Yeah, I think I just felt, I felt really, like I don't even want to use the word bullied, but I felt just so attacked in such a, like nationally. I was going through a lot as it was. I was trying to be strong for my kids.

48:25Whatever had gone on in our life was private, which I do believe that you're entitled to no matter what. And God, I was such a villain. and I was breaking like I was absolutely breaking beyond like what I thought it was possible for a human to break and all along I'm still trying to be a mom and it was just like every time I went out and I was trying to put a brave face on and do things like that was wrong if I didn't I mean I felt like everything I did was so wrong and uh and sort of like the years after that it really took me a long time to build up and a level of resilience and I think even now I get really nervous of doing anything where I have to express myself like doing this record and not re-looking at the lyrics because I'm so worried of the attack that might come so I have to really train myself to go it doesn't matter and it isn't the general point of view it isn't what everyone actually thinks it's a small minority because I would like read the comments and there'd be like 600 comments And to me, that would be like 600 people said these terrible things about me.

49:37And then my friends would be like, there's 52 million people in this world. Yes. Stop panicking. Ridiculous. It felt like I was carrying the world on my shoulders. I wouldn't wish how I felt at that time in my life on anyone. Yeah. I mean, I've so been there and it is the pits. And I think I probably learned a really similar lesson to you. I just shut out outside noise now I don't I'm not gonna or even if I do see it or I'm aware of it I won't take it as personally I think it's hard to say you won't take it personally at all because you're a human and of course anyone firing any arrows at you it's out you know but I think it is a jolly good thing to get practiced at going I hear that person what they're saying they're in pain or whatever it is but I'm not going to let that impact what I know to be true about myself or who I know I'm as a person yeah but it's hard I mean similarly to me you were on antidepressants for a period of time did you feel they helped you kind of get your head above the ground um do you know what I actually just I always remember like going to I think it was the Brits or somewhere and they made me put weight on I was the lesser of two evils I was for some reason I put weight on I was unconfident in how it looked to my body yeah at the same time I was trying to keep my head above water I was trying to desperately just survive in the world that we live in and I remember just like hating the pictures and hating everything about the way I looked and again a whole host of nastiness and I just wanted to come out and I feel like now we would have a platform to do this I thought we've come such a long way but a few like six seven years ago um i wanted to come out and just go actually guys i'm really struggling and i'm on some antidepressants and they've made me put a few pound on and i'm sorry i'm not perfect right now but right now like my brain is slightly more important than my body and also it's none of your fucking business what i look like it just again it took me straight back to that whatever you do yeah you can't win you're trying to find um and actually after that i remember stupidly coming off them never taking a tablet again after that you know like you're meant to wean yourself off so don't try this at home kids I did the same I just stopped taking them one day I got up and thought no more yeah I'm not doing this anymore I need to there's a song that I wrote actually in the lyrics so I need to put on my get up put on my best dress got healthy and sober and and by that I just meant one morning I just got up and went I'm done I am gonna fight to enjoy the rest of my life in the best way I can and I never took an antidepressant again after that so and I know they helped some people for me they just wasn't right yeah no I had a I feel like it's quite similar I had a period where it was an absolute necessity and then I just thought right enough's enough and then you I mean I had to start digging deep and looking at all the stuff we've talked about not listening to outside noise as much and building confidence back which takes for anyone listening who is in that place now it takes ages but it's not impossible and it's so worth keeping your goal in sight of getting back out there and putting yourself back out there in whatever shape it is whether it's with work or friendships or otherwise it's so important to keep that in sight my mum said to me one morning when I was staying with her and I used to sit on the same place in the sofa every morning I used to get the kids to school come back sit on the end of her sofa curled up into a ball and just wait till it was time to go and pick the kids up and she said to me nothing ever stays the same forever Louise and no matter how bad you feel today you will not feel like this forever and I was like yeah yeah you don't you don't believe it but it's so true but And she was right.

53:30And I look now and I think, God, anyone listening to this, for whatever reason, you might be going through a tough time. And and I blame no fault on anyone for my tough time. It was just circumstances with me and a life that I was in. You can really come out the other side. Like, am I swimming in confidence, walking down the street thinking I'm the best thing since sliced bread? Absolutely not a million miles away. do I get up and go I'm making a real go of this there's a long way to go but do I enjoy more of my life than not enjoy it absolutely I do do you know what I mean like I have great friends I have a lovely partner my kids are excelling at what they do and I've just made music and I'm 50 so you know what I'll take that I'll take that any day I love it I'm so here for it and nothing's perfect you know no single human is sat there going I've nailed confidence I've nailed self-worth we're all bumbling along trying our best and you know with varying degrees of success on any given minute let alone day it's just constantly undulating and changing and yeah but I think we need to listen to your mum because it's so true you know nothing nothing stays the same when you're in it you feel like it's fixed forever but nothing stays the same time will always heal you will come out the other side and I think I am absolutely living proof of that and I remember now and again friends ringing me up and going through a similar thing and saying you were always so together like every time we saw you every time we spoke to you and you'd turn up to such and such his birthday party and you were so together I was like you have no idea how untogether I was I was literally you know paddling for my life underneath the smile yeah we put a mask on we get out the door and we think I'm not allowed to show any of this and feel any of it and suppress suppress suppress and that's what's so nice about the way the world is going and please god it carries on going that way in podcasts like this and and other people having such a voice of it's okay to not be okay kind of voice I do think that even if that had been going on five or six years ago in a bigger way would have been good for me like I look now and I think wow like there's just so much there's so many things you can tap into to look for some sort of kind of help positivity and it's so more important than that I would have ever given it credit for If I hadn't have had the ups and downs, like some amazing ups, I mean, a 21-year marriage, had some incredible ups, incredible times, two beautiful kids, some down times.

56:17They all have paid real dividends to, I suppose, the compassion and the empathy I have today for other people. But also the drive and ambition I have to carry on making my life great. Yeah. I feel like doing a fucking air punch. Yes! Air punch! I'm so here for it. I usually always finish by saying where's your happy place but you've already said it's the stage. This is it. You're on stage. You're singing. You feel free. Do you know what? The stage is my happy place and not for the reasons I think, not for the adoration, not for the everyone looking at me space. That is, you know me, that isn't something I've craved.

56:54I've never been the craver of the fame and the limelight. I genuinely love what I do. It's all I know how to do. I've gotten from the age of 10 and I went to stage school and sung my heart out and danced my socks off at every opportunity given. But it's the one place I don't think about anything else. I don't beat myself up. I'm just peace. I mean, I just want complete peace in my mind. The more I learn, the more I go down the line, the more I know how important it is to find peace in your mind. It is. It's everything. And we get little glimmers of it and that's enough. And then it goes again.

57:33That's all quite normal. But look, it's been so lovely talking to you today. Yeah, thank you. And I just love where you're at and where you're headed. And it's all very exciting. So thank you, Fingers crossed. Thanks, Ben. Oh, thanks, Louise. Louise, I was about to say, Louise is so nice. I'm not saying that. I mean, she's fucking lovely. But that is just the smallest cherry on the cake. Louise has so much to say and so much depth. And I just loved getting to know her that bit better. We've sort of seen each other run off over the years, countless times. but to sit and chat about those tricky moments that's helped me massively i'm bloody grateful um louise's fifth studio album confessions will be released on the 23rd of may if you want to give it a listen now are you following happy place on your podcast feed by the way do make sure you are because then you'll know the moment a new episode is released and it's not just these weekly guest episodes we also have the happy place book club episodes at the beginning of each month I chat to brilliant authors of our book club recommendations, which I absolutely love doing.

58:32This month, for March, we're reading Broken Country by Lesley Hall. If you're reading along with us, then brilliant. Make sure you join us on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club so we can all chat about our thoughts there. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to Louise, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you because I love you.

59:11so

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