Louise Thompson: Maternity care is bleak! Mental and physical scars of my traumatic birth

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that offers different perspectives through different life stories and today I'm chatting to happy place. is Thompson. Post-traumatic stress disorder will sadly plague me for the rest of my life. At its worst, it looks like traumatic flashbacks, which can be triggered by anything. You know, it's the smells, it's the sensations, it's the condensation on the window that can trigger me into feeling really scared. I have moments where I feel dissociated and I can not smell or taste or hear or even see that well and then I have other moments where I can smell, hear, taste too much so I'm very, very, very sensitive.

0:48I'm actually recording this introduction in my kitchen so that's why it might sound a bit echoey but also it is pissing with rain outside and my cats are all zooming around me so if you hear any strange noises, lovely listeners, that's where you can picture me fig is usually figs my kitten by the way if I haven't bombarded you enough on Instagram with pictures of her and she will kick about anything like a football jewelry keys bits of tissue just rolls of sellotape it's all up for grabs but I hope you're all well wherever you're listening to this I learned an interesting lesson this week and it's one that it's definitely not the first time I've learned it and it's quite a big overarching lesson that I had to learn.

1:35I mean the big ones are the ones that we need to keep learning right. So last week I felt really shit. Not as shit as I did say 13-14 years ago but I felt really low and sometimes that is essential and I could sort of feel myself fighting it for a few days before which is exhausting sort of trying to resist hitting a big low but actually what I remembered and relearned was that sometimes when you when you get like either rock bottom or you just hit a low point you've got no choice but to surrender and in that moment that is what I did I was just like well I just feel like shit and and I'm not coping well with what's going on in my life and whatever.

2:26And from that low, that sort of surrender actually came a bit of peace. And it's given me the opportunity to see things from a different angle, approach things with a different mindset. Like it's been sort of extraordinary. So although nothing much has changed, everything's changed in terms of how I'm looking at things. I don't know how long it's going to last. I might feel like good because I let myself reach that low. So if you're feeling utterly shit at the moment or you're resisting a big low, as long as you feel supported enough, I'd say go with it and let yourself feel your feelings essentially.

3:09As long as you've got good people around you that can support you if needed or friends you can pick up the phone and talk to, it's no bad thing and often and it gives us an opportunity to reset, start again, think of things differently. So that's the headspace I'm in. And I was actually in that headspace when I recorded this brilliant chat. God, I love this woman and I love this chat. Let's talk about Brilliant Louise. So Louise started her career on Made in Chelsea. She was one of the OGs way back in series one, but she has done so much since then. She's gone on to become an author and a podcaster and a really powerful voice around incredibly important issues, including ulcerative colitis and birth trauma.

3:57We talk about so many things. We go off on some really interesting tangents and ones that I hadn't necessarily planned for. You know, I do a fair bit of research for these conversations, but you never really know in which direction they'll turn. So we do start talking about the realities of maternity care in the UK. In my research for this chat and through looking at the brilliant work Louise is doing, I sort of had really no idea how bleak it is in the UK, maternity care. And that's no fault of the brilliant midwives and obstetricians and doctors and nurses who work in that environment. It's a systemic issue.

4:36And you'll hear more about that in this chat. We talk about her fertility journey. If you follow Louise on Instagram or TikTok, you'll see that she's been talking very openly about this recently, which I think is a brave share. And the fact that, well, I don't want to say too much, but if you know enough about her fertility journey, you'll get up to speed with where she's at in this moment during this chat. And also how her own trauma, and God, she's been through the ringer, has led to immense growth. And that, I think, is just such a brilliant part of the trauma conversation that is less often had.

5:12Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

5:35so so so Louise we've already before beginning this podcast decided we're going to move to a desert island and open an animal sanctuary was that what we landed on beautiful Wonderful. I would love that for us, Fern. Before we do that, we have got a whole load of stuff to chat about. Now, having followed bits of your journey, you're in a really interesting place at the moment. For one reason, you had a big, big week the other week where you put forward a petition to the UK Parliament. And this is all in order to appoint a maternity commissioner. This is very big, important work. Can you tell us what that role would mean to, well, women and men out there?

6:18Because it would affect everybody and benefit everybody. How would that affect us? Thank you, Fern. Yes. So about two months ago, a lady called Theo Clark, who's an ex-Conservative MP, and me got together and decided that we wanted to create a petition. We didn't realize it was going to take two months for it to be approved, but it now is. and I think that it is fairly crazy that in this country we don't have a maternity commissioner. So we have a commissioner for the environment, for domestic abuse, for education, for lots of really important topics but not for maternity and there are 600 ,000 women that give birth on average every year in the UK.

7:00It is the inception of life, it is the difference between life and death, It is bringing children into this world who are either going to be born into a stable world, stable family or not. And having experienced my own heavily traumatic birth four years ago, I've really seen the challenges that this sort of problem can leave people with. You know, I've been left with a lot of mental and physical scars. And it's taken me a really long time to get to a place where I'm actually functioning like a normal human again. And I really, you know, Theo has her own experience of birth trauma. Weirdly, we both went to the same prep school and secondary school and reconnected in 2024 when my book came out.

7:46Yeah. And I had and she's quite a bit older than me. I say that. I want to be an insult. She's she's in her 40s. I'm 35. so we weren't close but we have that weird thing in common and it felt like something that was meant to happen you know that this was the serendipitous moment that we we were meant to connect even though it was in awful circumstances and so we started working together and she obviously has the parliamentary background um I have lived experience and I just really really don't want what happened to me to continue to happen to many other women that are less fortunate and have less privilege and less resources and that don't end up healing and surviving because there have been partners who have messaged me to say that they've lost their their wives um and that I remember when I received my first message like that it actually it completely broke me um so I always knew that there was something that I wanted to do to make lasting change and And, you know, it is that cliche thing of turning something terrible into something good.

8:53And I think as humans, like we're always searching for meaning. We're such problem solvers as it is. You know, I couldn't find any meaning behind what had happened to me because it was just awful and it could have been avoided. And so this this felt like the answer. And I, you know, when when I went through those worst times, I thought that I was totally alone. I thought that I was just this like hugely unlucky person. I thought I was one in a hundred million. There are 30 ,000 women a year that end up with PTSD following a traumatic birth. That's 5 % of all births. And I think with somebody to take control of everything, you know, we have a health minister.

9:31It's not enough. Like they don't have enough time to focus solely on the maternity care in this country. And also the stats are quite scary, you know, and I don't want to sit here and just fearmonger because obviously, you know, a huge part of your following, a huge demographic will be women of childbearing age. I think this is really about educating people. So, yeah, there was this Guardian article that came out last week, which suggested that the Tories, they wanted to obviously work to reducing maternal deaths over a 15 year period. I think that the sad reality is in the last 14 years, the death rates have gone up by 20 percent.

10:13so it's kind of turned into a national scandal and we're kind of we just want to want to move things so within the first 24 hours we had 10 000 signatures and for any petition you need 10 000 signatures to get a response from parliament you've got six months so there's a six month window and we have until july to make a you know hopefully get a lot a lot a lot of signatures so hopefully lots of your beautiful listeners can help with that and then if you reach 100 000 and they will consider debating it in Parliament. It's crazy to me that it needs debating. It's so basic for me to say that. But this is half the population.

10:51Yeah. You know, all women will be affected by this in some way, even if it's not you getting pregnant. It's your mate, it's your daughter, it's, you know, it's someone close to you in life will at some point possibly get pregnant and have to go through what's supposed to be this magical amazing experience can really be turned on its head if the maternity care isn't there and this petition has been inspired because you have this inquiry and report that has all of these bleak statistics in there about postnatal care and also prenatal care and that it's massively lacking and also that a lot of it's to do with sort of a postcode lottery it's depending on where you live quite literally depends on what that standard of care will be which seems absurd very scary and there are a lot of uh there's a lot of data on the inequality of of the care as you say quite rightly point out especially it was disproportionately more black and asian mothers that end up dying and people that live in less privileged parts of the country and I think it's really shocking and you say it should be something that has been considered really regularly and discussed in parliament really regularly instead there are regular reports and inquiries into the problem but nobody is actioning anything and I think like the birth inquiry which did come out in 2024 set a long list of recommendations which were things like properly educating birthing parents creating more mother and baby units for parents that have suffered six-week checkup postpartum for mothers as well as the babies adequate funding for midwives obstetricians and anesthetists to recruit them train them and also retain them because i think the retention rates are really poor at the moment and i get loads of ex-midwives who are probably in the generation above us who used to love their career and stuck around for 20 odd years, who might have children who have tried it and are just not treated with adequate respect.

13:05And so I think that there's a huge problem. And, you know, the government spend more money paying out medical negligence cases than they do on the care in the first place. Wow. And that's what's so alarming. And so there clearly needs to be this huge shake up to to tackle a lot of a lot of these problems for for women because it's becoming a systemic issue and yeah I just I really really hope that we can get our foot in the door and look I mean I have very little experience when it comes to politics so it's something that I'm interested in and I'm reading more about but it's it's not my it's definitely not my space but I do you're bringing you're bringing the heat and the attention to it that's that's very important you know it's all very well and good and rightly so you know Theo who you're working with will have that knowledge and that background but equally we need voices out there speaking about it and we need the attention on it so I don't think I'm certainly not sat here expecting you to know every political agenda that's out there I just think it's a subject that well women's health in general I think the the general sort of feeling is that women need to just suck it up and get on with it whether it's hormonal health sexual health menstrual health going back to when you first start your periods we're just meant to crack on with things and get on with it and that this is the extreme of that the most severe outcome is you know somebody a mother not making it to be there for their newborn baby.

14:42That is the severe end of a problem that seriously needs looking at. Absolutely. And I think that there has been an issue, obviously, amongst women's health because largely the Houses of Commons have been made up of men. Now I think that there's a bit more equality. I think 40 % of politicians are women. So we're kind of on the cusp of this pretty major change. And I do really admire other people that have stepped forward and have dedicated so much of their time and their privilege and having a big following towards trying to create a big shift you know you're very close friends with Davina she does so much for the menopause which I think is amazing Vicki Pattinson speaks a lot about endometriosis and it's really it's really great to be surrounded by such incredible company and I think that we are really on the cusp of change and I just hope that we can get a conversation in with West Streeting because it doesn't benefit anybody.

15:41There's not one person that benefits from this. Perhaps a couple of legal firms. I don't know. But the shift, when you look at the other side of the coin, the benefits are huge, not only to the postpartum mother, but the baby and the family that spirals from that. But also, like you've said, midwives, obstetricians, anesthetists, people that are working in that environment that want to do their job well, but need the resources and the funding and the backing to do it properly. It benefits everybody if that shift is in place. It really does. So you feel hopeful about it because it's a huge, it's a huge deal to go up against a government and to try and make huge systemic change like this.

16:28These sorts of early stages, how do you feel about it? I feel a really mixed fan so I feel I have moments where I feel really empowered and I feel as though I've got like this army of people marching behind me that all want this to happen I have other moments where I feel like a complete imposter and then I think god I've got to come on first podcast today and and talk about this really significant issue and and then I remember actually that every individual, you know, we're all just people. We're all individual people. And I can only do my best. I am learning a lot. And I am being a spokesperson, like a mouthpiece for the 1.5 million followers that I have.

17:15I've done polls. I'm creating forms. I'm trying to do my own research but I suppose you know all people you've got to start somewhere like everybody that's successful in some sort of pursuit whether it is a petition or you know writing some life changing book like that all more often than not starts with a story that means something really significant to somebody yeah so I do feel like a bit of a kind of a pioneer in this space but it does it makes me feel emotional and there are people that will say god you know you don't have to do this like are you are you all right like is it going to be too much I do feel like four years on you know I've had the the survive the year of survival I've had the year of kind of acceptance and then like the learning and the overcoming and this is I suppose what post-traumatic growth really looks like is feeling equipped to take on this big challenge and I think that there are a lot of people you know I'm not the first person to walk in these shoes I think so many of the people that I admire whether it's like Matt Haig you know writing his books about depression a lot of people that have been through something really awful decide that they want to do something with that and I think it's because when you've suffered so much you feel the pain so intensely like you've experienced that more than anything any other like human lived experience you you become obsessed with it you research it and and I'd say it's probably why a lot of like therapists as well end up a lot of therapists are people that have been through something really traumatic and have had to work through their own stuff they've worked with therapists they realize that they're an expert in that and understanding and in connecting with other people that have been through something really deep and they then go yeah I can recognize that in other people and I really want to help and and I guess that's kind of I'm not saying I'm definitely don't have the I'm straight to be a therapist and I'd be terrible.

19:10I'm terrible at listening. But Ryan will tell you that. I can't know. But I do. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like this is the beginning. We've got six months to see what we can do. I mean, we could get millions of signatures. One of the next exciting things that we'd really like to do would be to get a lot of women together to do a huge photo call on College Green, which is opposite Parliament, to create some more noise. And then really it's kind of conjuring up this marketing campaign just so that everybody knows. And it's the education piece. And I feel supported because there are some brilliant charities out there, like the Birth Trauma Association, who I work really closely with.

19:54The CEO, Dr. Kim Thomas, has been heavily involved in this space for so long. And I guess they're right at the kind of like grassroots. roots they're the people that have to really like pick up the pieces you know when when people's worlds fall apart they're the ones offering out the resources they're the ones with the peer-to-peer support picking up the phone trying to make sure that people stay alive and now we're going to try and tackle both ends because you know they they're like hugely underfunded and I mean it's it's a it's a huge mountain but I think you know everybody's behind you and everyone wants you with all of these amazing people that you've forged an alliance with to keep it all rolling and keep it going and any moment you know let me remind you that everybody out there gets imposter syndrome at times and if you ever have it at any point in this journey you just have to remember everything you've just said to me that you know it's your lived experience it's not I think so often like you just said it's it's it's yes you need to work with the right people because everyone's got their own skill set you don't need to know everything but if you're fueled by your own personal experience I don't think that can be rivaled I think that that's where all of that determination and motivation comes from because you've been you've lived through it and you are still living through it I mean going through something like a traumatic birth is not something that you just go oh right I've done four years I'm over it now on to the next chapter anything traumatic lives with you forever and it won't obviously have the same resonance forever and you won't drown in it forever but it lives alongside you where would you say this far into your recovery from that where where are you at mentally how do you how do you feel about you know you still have to talk about it often certainly with a campaign like this how do you feel about it it's a really good point you do have to live with it forever like post-traumatic stress disorder is not something that you can treat and I've tried cbt emdr exposure therapy antidepressants antipsychotics like I might sit here I mean I'm blinking a lot so that's a sign that my nervous system is in a funny place because I'm talking about it but it's I might present to somebody that's really you know on the other side of recovery but it is something that will sadly plague me for the rest of my life.

22:22I suppose at its worst, it looks like traumatic flashbacks, which can be triggered by anything. You know, January, this time of the year is really, really tricky for me because I've had so many hospital stays in January, a lot of emergency surgeries, like rushing into theatre. And so even looking out of the window, my brain knows when it's, you know, the 1st of January, the 20th of January, we're coming up to the 30th of January, which will be the two year anniversary of the surgery where I had to have my colon removed and was left with a stoma bag and these things you know they just they're there it's the smells it's the sensations it's the condensation on the window that can trigger me into feeling really scared and and and it's and the hyper vigilance is actually a lot yeah so it's lying in bed at night and hearing the smallest sound reverberate through my entire head so I can be lying there and like you know that weird like crackling behind a tv or something that like a normal person when here radiators pops but it literally I can feel it go like there's this huge wave and it hits and it just goes floods through my whole body and I think oh and then I go okay no that's fine that's a sign that I'm alive it's all right um my senses are still all over the place so I have moments where I feel dissociated and I can not smell or taste or hear or even see that well and then I have other moments where I can smell hear taste too much so I'm very very very sensitive I have this like awful nerve pain you know that is something that I'll be left with probably forever and and also I suppose I've reached a place now where four years down the line I think you know what I really don't want what happened to me to dictate the rest of my life and what my family unit looks like and so we have reached a point where my partner and I feel like we would like to be able to give Leo a sibling because we're really close with our siblings and I have been left with some fertility so I don't have a period you know there are a lot of things that make me feel like less whole and human than I used to be before it's not going to be an easy journey I have decided to try and freeze some fertility while we then still continue to kind of like work on our mental space because this has affected Brian actually almost worse than it's affected me especially when it comes to growing our family I think for him he's just like why would we risk anything I cannot go through that again I cannot be the sole parent again I can't I can't like afford to have some big shift that means that I'm gonna regress and be scary again and not know who I am and not know where I am and have panic attacks all the time.

25:34So for him, he's like clinging on to any stability. And then I juggle this hard thing where I think, gosh, we're so lucky because I survived, I'm here, and I do have a good standard of living. I've also got the most amazing child. He's so beautiful. But then also growing our family is our legacy, and it's our right, and I should have been allowed the human right of having a safe and dignified birth, which would have allowed me to leave procreation to chance where, you know, I could have sex with my partner and maybe, maybe have another baby, you know. And that's not, you know, I know that fertility struggles are a very real problem.

26:16And, you know, we are facing a population crisis. There are many reasons why people are leaving having kids until much later in life. And so infertility is an inevitable reaction to that. so I'm absolutely not alone in this infertility journey our circumstances are just really different because you know of just like the scarring that I've been left with yeah and it feels it feels actually quite like it feels quite nice just to be able to like talk about it and just quite like liberating because it is you know when I first worked with um therapists quite early on and I say early on but probably like at the two you know two-year postpartum mark they would say oh you know if you like have you thought about having more kids and how does that make you feel and that must be desperately upsetting and I was like no like don't be ridiculous like I absolutely couldn't think about any of that and I think that there were just different milestones that they were holding me to maybe they had other clients who were you know reaching that sort of like conventional two-year mark and thinking oh maybe we'd like to have another child but it's so it what it's not something I can't sit here and say like I've yearned for this for a really long time like we've only just felt good enough to to like to kind of think about it and um yeah I've done a an IVF cycle I've actually done two I did one when I was really really busy I I that's another the thing like obviously you know I'm sure loads of people have come on this podcast to say make a plan God laughs or whoever you believe in um there were times when I wanted to do it before and then like something else really hideous would crop up in my life like some other major trauma to have to deal with some perforation or a surgery and so it was always put on pause and then because I have this bowel condition I'm on quite a lot of different medication and some of that medication there's just not been enough research around whether it's like safe to carry kids but also but that you know wouldn't really be the main thing for me but it's also they don't know whether it's something called teratogenic which means that it can like pass on to the child and they I don't know at what cellular level that could be.

28:45So I've had to work to this program where I can switch medications, basically. It feels complicated and really deep to me. But when I say it out loud, people are probably like, so you switched medication. But I'm like, but for me, switching medication means like, but that medication was working. And if I switch off it, then I might have to have my bum removed in an emergency surgery. so everything has had to be so considered and like slow and delicate and we got there and then yeah I had I did a cycle and I was very scared because I wouldn't it feels odd to choose you know to pay to to have the procedure done and everything else has been you know on on the NHS and not by choice and so you know even Ryan has thought like but why would I don't want to see you in a hospital gown for any reason like even if you are in control and and I did it and I was it was at a time when I was yeah I think I mentioned I was really busy kind of at the end of last year and so it kind of breezed through it actually and and I'll be honest I thought I thought that it was fine and I thought that it was easy compared to some of the other things that I'd been through and I then felt really confident this year going into another cycle because we didn't get the results that we wanted but I was like maybe I'm just like lucky and I just I sort of haven't found it that tough with all the hormones and then I did another one this year And it was it served me all of the worst things that you can go through in terms of feeling really like up and down and weak and emotional.

30:38And the emotions are irrational. You know, you kind of like have these little conversations in your head or like with the monkey on the shelf. You're like, I don't think this is me. But something's there's some fire coming out of me right now. and I'm like calling people that work in the clinic at like godly times of the day being like seeking reassurance, like secretly, like a kind of addiction. So yeah, that's kind of where we're at with that and we'll see what happens. I mean, it's such a mix of things that you're having to be looking at. Like you've just mentioned the medication and looking at the PTSD and the emotional turmoil and then your relationship with your partner.

31:20there's so much in there going through something like IVF and like you've just said you know you've got your hormones uh up and down all over the place as well as the expectation and the waiting and the not knowing what is helping you through all of that because you've been through hell and back and you've gotten to a place where you're you're able to make a decision like this but You've got to maintain a whatever you can, you know, a good base level of mental health to get you through this next bit. What do you need in place to ensure that happens? Very good question, because I'm living through it kind of at the moment.

32:03I think that as I started to get better, so sort of like three years postpartum, I sort of like rebounded back into this place where I was in sort of turbo distract mode. So constantly trying to grow something and achieve something and be busy or grow my team or have deeper conversations and like looking for distraction everywhere, ultimately, and becoming almost feeling quite trapped because I used to do a lot of physical exercise and movement and not being able to really do that. because anytime I do that now I have awful like symptoms and and I sort of start bleeding and stuff it's not very nice so that's felt really hard but I've like I've really crammed the mental stimulation in whereas with this process I felt really fatigued and I actually have just I feel like relinquished that like need for speed basically like I've actually just gone And you know what?

33:08If I have to just cancel all my important or exciting things for January, that's okay. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. And like, even if that rolls a little bit into February, I'm like, what do I actually, what do I need to do this whole year? Who cares? Like, I've been through so much, enough to like last a lifetime. Yes. That I don't need any more badges. Give yourself a break. I mean, I totally, totally hear you. I've spent years trying to distract myself from things I haven't wanted to think about. And I've done all the things that you mentioned, CBT and EMDR and yada, yada, yada. And I think some of it's really stuck.

33:46EMDR I found very, very helpful. But I think that need to constantly be, whether it's achieving or mentally stimulated, challenging myself doing things, is still my crutch that I lean on. And I know I've experimented it in ways this January where I've had days where I've been on my knees exhausted from just doing too much and being with the kids on my own and I've gone do you know what I'm cancelling this or I'm not going to go to this thing I actually don't need to go to I'm gonna have a bath at 5 p.m or before the kids get back from school and not feel horribly guilty or judged by anyone for doing it we're all trying to do too much at one time and then we give ourselves such a hard time for just stopping.

34:33I mean, the thing you have to deal with when you stop, of course, is the bombardment of thoughts and worries or it might be stuff from the past. How do you, what's your mental way of, I don't know whether it's quieting those thoughts down or just being able to arrange them into some sort of organised group so you can methodically deal with them rather than it just being brain noise? Gosh there's so much that I could talk about Gosh I feel better knowing that you also have the same struggles Mate I'm on the run all the time January it's just you know this constant battle of like but do I need to have like a really solid start to the year No No Fuck it I don't I can literally just coast and be irrelevant and insignificant and I just want to be an ant for like a little bit Guess what we all are anyway Yes We're exactly so arrogant to think that I need to have a really big January.

35:28But we do. But we all think that. We all think, oh my God, I've got to make my mark or even in life. And it's like, we actually don't. You know, I think most of us are just about getting through it. We're just about getting through whatever our bespoke set of challenges are, varying degrees of severity. We're just about getting through it. And we can look on Instagram and think, oh my God, everyone's nailing it or they're doing this or whatever. Behind the scenes, they're probably also just about getting through it. and we do just need to take our foot off the gas and you know I'm not a therapist I'm not giving you any advice I don't know what the fuck I'm doing but what I will say is yes give yourself a break you've got you've got enough to contend with with just even like you said a minute ago like you're aware of when your nervous system is peaking that you blink a lot I know my and I have the same thing if I'm lying in bed at night and a radiator pops I am literally on the edge of panic Like it's a visceral experience.

36:25And I know that I need to throughout the day check in with where's my nervous system at? Am I breathing? Probably not. I'm probably holding my breath up here. Have I actually taken the time to stop and look around the space I'm in? Like, oh, have a look around the room. None of this stuff touches the sides. We're just fucking getting through it. So I think even if you wake up every day and you're like, my job today is going to be making sure my nervous system remains as level as it can. What an achievement. Yes, I actually listened to a podcast not that long ago. I think it was one of Dr. Rangan Chatterjee's.

37:02We love Rangan. He's great, isn't he? He's the best. And so I got into him and you at the same time. You, the OGs, the 2018 crowd. We were the COVID generation. Yeah, you were. We were the COVID people just like talking in your ear. Yeah, it was wonderful. It got me through a lot of, actually, I thought times were hard back then. They were not. They were kind of a doddle. But he did this sort of whole episode, I think it was just him, where he basically said every day just have a little thought about one thing that you want to do that day. And I was like, that's really nice. Like, let's just reduce this full 24 hours to like one thing that could maybe even take like a couple of minutes.

37:40Yes. That takes the pressure off. And that day when I when I kind of had that revelation, I thought, you know what, I'm going to think outside the box a little bit. I'm going to make today about Ryan because I really haven't spent any time thinking about him in a very long time. you know and we was kind of just like in that phase where we're coasting and we're getting through and we're just sort of doing our own thing but I was like today maybe I'll make that my one thing and that felt quite like enlightening as well because yeah I just also it kind of it forced me just to like take a gear change I was like I don't need to keep on this motor this hamster wheel I'll just stop pause try and answer that one question and try and do something make it something really different every day and that feels nice I think another thing that I like to do which is quite personal to me is I love doing puzzles I know I'm such a nerd like I love to sort and even because I used to get quite a lot of anxiety when when I sort of got around to parenting my now four-year-old Leo I used to panic that like we weren't I mean it was especially hard and I couldn't talk to him that I was kind of in his company and I was like trying to think of the things that I should be doing.

39:00I just found the whole thing really overwhelming and I'd be like, what am I doing like right now? Like I'm not talking to him. I'm not like actively feeding him. We're really just existing. And so now it's taken a while to come to terms with the fact that like it's important for a child to be able to do nothing so that they don't come into the same habits that we have. And we do quite a lot of jigsawing together as well. So I do quite a lot of it on my own because that allows me to concentrate on something that's outside of my head, but it just helps all the memories process. So it's like that time, even if it's kind of like half an hour at the end of the day, where I know that I'm like downloading all of the day and it's moving, you know, into the right like memory box in my brain yeah and also you do still get like that little hint of like dopamine that you need to keep you going and keep you smiling because you're kind of putting something together and so you're building something i love i think it's so important to have an activity where you do exactly what you've just said you're letting your brain calibrate the whole day it's just all slotting into place because otherwise if i don't do that and there's loads days where I don't I get into bed turn my light off and it all starts up then and I'm like I don't want to replay every conversation I've had in my head today or think about every move that I made that was incorrect or thing I could have done better you do need to try and get that shit done before your head hits the pillow and it's I think also if you've got a propensity to disassociate which I also do.

40:43And I actually, since sort of looking at what I would be talking about you today and looking at what you've been talking about recently in podcast, you had a brilliant episode with Ryan, your partner, where you discussed a lot of what we've chatted about today, but within the context of a relationship, it made me remember that I disassociate because it's so normal to me to do it that I'll just, I know I go slightly glazed behind the eyes and I, And internally, I'm sort of very aware of what my body's doing and how I'm speaking. And I become it's all a bit sort of surrealist and like I'm not actually there.

41:19But it's so normal to me that I have to go to myself. Come on, like you're doing it. You're doing you're doing the thing. And I think if you've got a bit of a history of doing that, it's even more important to then have those little activities that allow you to just go. I am going to be subconsciously processing everything, whether it's trauma in the past or things that have happened today, whilst I do one thing. Yes. When do we do one thing? We're watching TV on our phones. Yeah. We're like cooking and talking to someone. It's absurd. We're absorbing so much. And our brains need a break. Our brains are fucked.

41:54The dissociation is they're like, I'm so tired and overworked. Like, please, can you just turn the heat down a little bit? Like, I feel like a computer or a robot sometimes that's just overheating. And then I'm like, I even had the people think I'm crazy now. But the thought of like, well, are we all actually just turning into robots? Like, why are we doing this to ourselves? We're treating ourselves like machines that never need like powering down like laptops now. Like I never turn it off. I'm never like shut down and reset. It's just we're just like live all the time. I agree. I mean, before we started this chat on the mic, we were having this sort of chat off mic about how I'm constantly on the precipice of fuck this.

42:42I can't do this. It's all too much. What am I even doing? What am I doing in my life? I need to go and work in a cat sanctuary and do something better with my time. Or like I'm constantly sort of existential and wondering because you do just go through these motions of get up, take the kids to school, rush back, go to work, rush through that bit of the day, rush through getting the kids. It's everything's just a rush to get to sleep, which I don't even do. And then you rush again the next day. And it's like, what are we doing? What the fuck are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing?

43:13So quite, I'll tell you who I lean on is I'm, me and Ryan are polar opposites. Right. So he does not get carried away with things. He's slow. He's like a slow mover, a slow thinker, sometimes very frustratingly. frustratingly I'm like how does your brain work at this like slow frequency and I'm so fast and sometimes I'm like well maybe you're just not as clever as me you won't mind me saying that but equally I'm like but you are you're like the it's like the tortoise in the hare and actually you're you're still getting to places like you're still moving he's decided this year to go he's doing like an iron man in Hawaii he doesn't care if like he doesn't achieve anything except for like that one big thing yeah I'm like that's actually great in my mind I'm thinking and I know people like this you know a lot of people in this same industry as well who don't take holidays you know my brother's a culprit he's like I couldn't possibly take a holiday unless it's tied in with something to do with work and I'm like you have to because because as someone who has spent time you know waking up from like an awful kind of like life-changing life-threatening surgery in those moments you do really think okay like this is all a game like let's just make sure to definitely carve out the time to like hang out with with some cool people and and just be silly and and you know I do have a lot of respect for people that kind of just like move they think like oh you know what like I've spent enough time here in this country I think I'll try something new for a little bit yeah I'm so envious of those people it's like it's that must be like a life well lived having their like different experiences I think I find that quite comforting knowing that like if you know if it all goes wrong there is the option to do that because you can always kind of start again but but I this this year I think because we were off to a bit of a weird start with this IVF cycle and then actually my son ended up in hospital just for 48 hours in the end it was the reminder that like okay like every January I'm reminded that like life is tough and like bad things happen even to good people and like don't like sprint out the gates like I can speed up towards the end of the year if I like have to if there are like targets or something I need to meet but for now like just let's just enjoy it and right I mean it's it's a very complex place to be when you when you've been dealing with a life or death situation where it's like I've got to have this surgery and you don't know what the outcome's going to be and yes on one hand you can come out with this amazing broader perspective of life and understanding that it's also fragile and ephemeral and precious but alongside that or equally you're left with an anxiety that oh my god life's so fragile and ephemeral and and it's you know it's slipping through my fingers it's you can apply a positive and a negative to that same thought process where do you tend to sort of sway most the fear or the the broader perspective well I think I used to say that it was I remember before I did a podcast ages ago maybe it was with Elizabeth Day actually I was thinking about I was worried about doing the podcast and I think I had said in my head I was like the thing that I was going to say first of all when I like got in there was like because of my PTSD I have loads of personalities so I don't know which one's going to show up and that you kind of reminded me of that because there are these different elements to you that want to speed up and slow down and you feel like really different people so like there's the old Louise and the new Louise and and sometimes I do feel really conflicted I do feel like something's very different this year like I do feel as though I don't care I feel I feel like I've I feel I know that I have nothing to gain by trying to be so busy that I'm just like racing to the grave like that I'm just speeding up my days yeah and that feels really nice like I I feel happy to move more slowly.

47:49And I also feel like I just want to prioritize the things that actually mean something to me, which has been really hard because I've, you know, been a people piece of my whole life. And now I feel like I don't need to be that person. And I also have I used to feel as though there was always someone judging me or like marking my work that like everything had to perform really well and I had to be really polished. And now I think actually like, you know, likeability doesn't equate to success. Like, you know, there are so many other metrics. Yes. To success. And so I feel better about my relationship with social media and my work and my relationship with my partner and my son.

48:34And I feel in a good spot. I think I'm hoping like this year is just going to be really wonderful for everybody. That sounds like liberation. and I'm really interested in the whole notion of being likable. Hence, I've just written a book about it that's out soon. And I've been even thinking about it since writing it and wish I could add things to it because it's constantly new thoughts. And likability is such a strange sort of nebulous subject matter because, you know, you've been in the game of social media and that being part of your profile and your work, much like me. but you've also been on reality tv where that's a whole you know other bag of onions where you've got people judging your every move on that and likability comes into play so heavily it becomes a currency for all of it but what like what even what is it like how many people have to like you for you to be likable do the right kind of people have to like you for you to be likable do you have to be likable consistently for it to count like what how does it work what does it even mean it's such a load of bollocks and actually the only thing I can land on is that it all equals compliance that's all it is is being able to shape shift enough in any situation environment or people you're around to not rock the boat or piss them off that's all it is and then you're likable wow it's really nothing to do with you at all because actually then i'm going on a rant here no i love this but then you're only being liked for this weird projection that you're putting out there you're not actually being liked for who you are at all so so it's actually pointless because you're not you're actually you're you're yeah you're you're a little fictional character you've to not piss anyone off is likable.

50:26You're playing the game well. Well done. It works. And that's the only thing that I can comfort myself with when I think, oh, fuck, did that person leave thinking I was an arsehole or did I come across like a weirdo or whatever? It's like, well, I might be a weirdo. Yes. Do you know what I mean? And the best people are. Yeah, exactly. And whatever. So I get where you're at. You know, I've probably reached that. I'm older than you. I've reached that further down the line. I wish I'd reached it in my mid-30s because I think if you're starting the year like that, and I'm pretty sure it's been accelerated by every bit of trauma you've been through because you're fast-tracking yourself to, I don't give a fuck, what a great way to start January, I'd say.

51:11I'd say so. I'm so excited to read your book. Can you send me a copy? Thank you. Of course. Because I'm fascinated in this topic. Me too. and I but what I think what helps is looking at the people that you actually admire and learning that the people that often those people are liked by a small group of like a community but also kind of hated by loads of people as well and like and seeing that they're fine with that yeah who cares is quite cool yeah it's really cool and like the people that just want to be liked by everybody like they're not really going anywhere and and as you said like how what how do you even like quantify that what's the end goal like what is it how how like how do you need to be yeah but like i mean unless we become like a football player that's just not gonna happen even then they get so everyone's unhappy exactly it's all total bollocks so my penultimate question my question to you is where is your happy place great great question and such a nice thing to be able to think about for me skiing so just total like no one can bother you when you're skiing so coming down a mountain on two planks of wood cold air like blowing against your face feeling totally liberated and like, you know, a little bit dangerous as well.

52:42Yeah. For me, that's really good. Like in the mountains. I'm the worst skier. I've only been once. I was so bad. And I went with a really good skier, which put me off. So I need to, I need to get back. I need to try again. Yes. Let's do a big trip. Okay, I'm there. A ski trip. Okay, I'm coming. Oh my God, I'm speaking to this about Sam and Pete last night. And we were like, just because skiing is so funny. Because even it's better when people, when there's a real mixture of people. Okay. It's so funny. okay sign me up I'm there yeah and my last question is we are going to compile a happy place playlist so music that makes you feel really good doesn't matter what the genre is it could be a song that makes you want to cry your eyes out what would be the song you would put on the happy place playlist oh my god sorry to do this to the playlist for me it's gonna have to be lose yourself by Eminem.

53:32Let's whack it on there. It's my, it's my, like, like, nothing else in the world matters. Yes. Just that song. Like, I can overcome anything. Yeah, it's powerful. it's kind of aggressive. Okay, what's going on there? So it would be that. Well, I think everything that you're doing is so marvellous. It's so incredible that you're putting everything you've been through behind this exceptional petition and campaign. You know, this is, I'm sure, not going to stop at the petition gaining the amount of signatures needed this is a life's work for you now you know you've been through something incredibly tough and now you're using all of that energy to create you know incredible systemic change it's it's really wonderful so I wish you all the luck with it and I'm really hoping that everyone listening to this gets behind it signs the petition you know tells all of their friends to listen if they're interested in this subject even if they're not they should bloody well learn about it because it's it's so it's so interesting and um and for you sharing your fertility journey and your ptsd journey it's it's helping a lot of people out there so yeah amazing stuff all around thank you so much louise thank you fan oh thanks louise you excellent human being god i relate to so much of what louise was saying about never feeling like you're quite doing enough and never taking a foot off the gas and we all know that that's detrimental so if you're in that headspace too we're all in it together and we can only try but to go and have a hot bath here and there or give ourselves a bit of headspace when we're feeling super overwhelmed and I just wish Louise so much luck with everything that she's doing at the moment which I know is taking a lot of energy alongside everything else going on in her life but she believes is so worthwhile as as we all do so do sign that petition if you can and go and check out what Louise is doing on social media where you'll learn a whole lot more about it.

55:26Now are you part of the Happy Place Book Club? If not it's not an exclusive club everyone's welcome you can most definitely join just pop over to at happyplacebookclub on Instagram that is where we natter about the book that we're reading each month and the book for February is a delightful book I urge you to read called A Year of Nothing and it's a non-fiction by Emma Gannon. Here's the premise. Quite ironically after years of writing about work productivity and wellness journalist Emma and great friend of mine found herself massively burnt out by it all. So A Year of Nothing follows her quiet rebellion against the cult of doing and striving and pushing which most of us are in.

56:13This is the kind of rebellion that we absolutely love and this book has given me so much. I was nodding along to it, I was yearning for quiet time, I was wondering how burnt out I actually am whilst reading it. There's lots of food for thought in there. So over four seasons Emma steps away from the noise and rediscovers joy in life with simple pleasures from dog borrowing and dopamine dressing to relearning how to swim and embrace a child-free life. So if you want to read that book, just head to at Happy Place Book Club to learn more about it. Go grab the book. It's bloody brilliant. And by the way, keep an eye on our podcast feed this week because something new and very fun is launching that I'm looking forward to.

57:04So if you love this podcast, you definitely need to be following and you definitely need to check out what we've got coming. So I think you'll like it. will chat sooner than you think. All right, until next time, a massive thanks again to Louise, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, you are lovely.

57:41Thank you.