Lulu: “I deeply disliked myself!” Recovering from alcoholism and trauma

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that doesn't need you to always be happy, clappy, smiley and compliant. Today, I'm chatting to Lulu. So by that point, I thought my name isn't good enough. My accents are not right. My personality is obviously not good enough. So I realised I've played the part of Lulu since I was 15 years old. And obviously, part of me is Marie from Glasgow. Lulu is happy, poppy, de Lulu. and Marie is scrappy, sometimes angry, determined, different to Lulu. I'm really excited about this conversation. I've sort of known Lulu on off over the years.

0:46I don't know where I first met her, but the first time I got to properly spend time with her, I think was when she came as a guest on Celebrity Juice. She sat down next to me and the first thing I noticed was that she smelled so gorgeous. It sort of blindsided me And I was like, what is that? She's like, oh, it's an oil that I get whenever I go to India. Next thing I know, she comes back from India and she brings me some oil. So what did she just grab from her handbag when we were doing the chat? She bought me a little pot of the oil and it smells like sort of, it's generally smells like mysticalness.

1:21That's not even a word, but it smells mystic. Oh, my God, it is heavenly. And then the last time I saw Lulu was when we went to go and watch the Rolling Stones together at Hyde Park. I had the cheek to try and sing in front of Lulu. Never again. One of the big regrets in my life. I tried to sing out loud to whatever, like Jumping Jack Flash. And then Lulu comes in like with her belting voice. Never sing in front of Lulu is the lesson I learned that day. But she is an absolute dream. The loveliest person ever. A ball of energy. She absolutely shot to fame when she was just a teenager. and for the next 40 years or so stepped in to play the part she knew everyone wanted her to be.

2:03But in her new memoir, If Only You Knew, she talks about how she felt she was losing the real Lulu along the way. So we talk about all sorts of things. Lulu sort of being a bit of a character. She talks about, well, her real name is Marie. We talk a lot about Marie in this chat. We talk about alcoholism throughout her childhood to do with her father and her grandfather. father. Also evolving with age and not needing to satisfy anyone but yourself. Also, there's a lovely moment where we talk about David Bowie, which is juicy. Listen out for that bit. And also the safety of finding one person that you can really confide in to really eradicate shame.

2:41Shame is a big theme in this chat. And it's a theme that I'm really interested in. So if you have felt shame in your life or sort of drowning in at the moment, I think this chat will be really helpful for you. The market's uncertain, revenues tied, and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com.

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5:28All right, here we go. This is the show.

5:53Lulu, what a joy to have you on Happy Place. I'm very honoured. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honoured. I loved reading your book. I mean, I know you, but this was like, I got to know you. I got to know you. And the end of chapter one, you summarise that initial part of the book by saying, this is your time to be utterly transparent, whereas you might not have been entirely transparent before. What stopped you, do you think, talking about the entirety of your story before now? I have a pat answer, which is I'm a private person. Yeah. But really and truly, I had a lot of shame about my life, about moments in my life, my childhood.

6:38And, you know, I just, to be honest with you, my mother trained me very early on. Anything that goes on in this house does not leave this house. And so obviously the violence and the alcoholism and all the stuff in my young childhood, I was ashamed. I mean, you've got to do a hell of a lot of work personally to get to a point where you can then start even telling mates about this stuff. You know, I've got big patches of my life where I know that shame still sort of floats around in the equation. and they're always the moments you know where I need to go to therapy again and talk about stuff or you know some stuff I still wouldn't want to talk to my friends about so to write it in a book is a huge deal because you've got to talk about it all over again you've got to have a level of comfort with it what's gotten you to that point well I'm 76 that's what's got I mean and I do feel privileged to be 76 because you know my mother didn't live this long my father didn't live this long.

7:45And I'll tell you what happened. I think maybe the kick in of I'm going to do the book, you know, because I thought about it, people had mentioned it. And I thought maybe, yeah, we'll see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my granddaughter turned 15. And my son and I were, you know, looking at her just loving her, loving her to pieces. She's just so great. And 15 and going to school. I mean, she's a young woman, but she's really only a little girl. And my son then said, Bella, you know what Nana was doing at 15? And really, really, it's sort of like, yeah, wow, wow, wow. He said she was in business. She was on the road.

8:32No school for Nana. And then, you know, when I started to think about writing my memoir, telling my story, because it's been said by only I think there are four people who really know me really know me and one of them said people think they know you they have no idea they just don't they don't know because I don't share certain things I chose not to share certain things and and I thought my grandchildren don't know I'm gonna do it that's the reason I'm gonna do the book for their a legacy for my grandchildren to get to know who their grandmother was and that's when it started and boy I had to go back into therapy once I started I bet because I had so carefully blanked things out pushed them down and to drag them up again was emotional it was painful I mean a lot of the thing there are things in the book too because I've just finished audible that made me laugh.

9:34Well, I need you. I am. And thank God I've got a sense of humor. But, you know, I think everybody's story is, I mean, for me, I read books mainly to learn. Yeah. Because I'm curious. And I thought, well, you know, maybe if I tell my whole story and then I started to look at it, I'm thinking, oh my, what a life, Lou. I've had a life. What a life. And if somebody can get something from it that maybe helped them or they may think oh that's a good idea oh I wonder why she did that maybe I should try you know one person decides that it's helpful that's my small way of giving back because I've had the most unbelievable life I mean unbelievable and you undoubtedly will help so many people I think especially when it comes to shame yeah nobody talks about this stuff because that's what shame does shame stops you from talking it It keeps you quiet.

10:32It keeps you straight. It stays in the dark. It stays in the dark. And actually, I think you realize as soon as you start talking about the things that you feel ashamed about, it dissipates because you're not, you know, you're not. It's not hiding in the dark, growing secretly. And then you have other people. Fermenting. Fermenting, yeah. And you have other people going, oh, my God. Same. I've been through that or I've had something similar or I feel ashamed about this. It does help. That is actually, I mean, for instance, when I started, first of all, they changed my name. they changed my um this would have been the record label right well well it's a combination of people you know uh first of all it was my manager marion my name is marie mcdonald mclaughlin lorry well that's gonna you know a bit of a mouth not as catchy as lulu and everybody like there was just the beatles just been going for a year or so the rolling stones the animals all these cute names and she said we need something for you that suits you and she suggested lulu and i sort of went yeah because I was thinking of comparing myself with with all the bands and then of course what happened next was that see Lulu is a character I now know and it's a character I play.

11:42So you still click into that even now? Now I know what it is. Yeah. Before I wasn't 100 % sure I hadn't analyzed it but I realized my name changed my accent has to change because I speak so quickly anyway but with a Scottish accent I was talking like that nobody knew what I was talking about So, and I understood that. And then I recorded Shout and they couldn't find another one like it. They couldn't find anything as bluesy, as rocky. Because as a singer, I like to ring a song out. Oh, you do. Oh, yeah. Thank you. And so they couldn't find anything for me. And I was given songs that were not challenging enough for me, not in that, that I could do the ringing out.

12:29And so that's three things they change. And then one day, coming off stage, I pounded my guitarist. What was that? You weren't even looking at the audience. You were watching. And I'm like, I'm another. And Marion, my manager, said, yeah. And both of me and my guitarist went, yeah. She said, you can't talk like that. You can't be like that. People are watching you. And they'll think that's all you are. And you'll get a bad name. And they'll think you're this and that and the next thing. And so by that point, I thought my name isn't good enough. My accent's not right. My personality's obviously not good enough.

13:07And it's not correct. It's not proper. It's not socially acceptable. All those things. Even though I didn't have those words in my head at 15, socially acceptable. And then the songs would be lightweight, a lot of them. And I'd want something that I could get my teeth into. So I realized I've played the part of Lulu. since I was 15 years old. And I am, obviously, part of me is Marie from Glasgow. And, you know, Lulu is happy, clappy, poppy, smiley, de Lulu. And Marie is happy, scrappy, sometimes angry, bluesy, determined. It's different to Lulu. But, you know, what happens is when you're playing characters like that, especially when you're a child, you take the character.

14:06I took, I should say, not what anyone else is going to do, what I did. I took the character of Lulu on because why would I go on stage and not take Lulu with me? People seem to like her. Yeah. But then I didn't know where she ended and where Marie began. So as I got older, it became more obvious I had to look at that. it's so interesting because I think when you start in a public you drink away a public facing job at the age of 15 I was 15 16 when I started presenting it was obviously a very different audience you were I remember but you know you do learn very quickly to be the good girl that's what you've got to do squeaky clean and always smiling and whatever someone tells you to do you say yes because otherwise you're going to lose the job so you are compliant you are obedient you'd play the role of the good girl and I don't think I realized that until a couple of years ago I would say a couple of years ago I was like wait a minute what what do I actually want to do do I want to still keep saying yes to everything people ask me to do and you know maybe I'd like to explore some other emotions I've got going on like anger and you know all the other shit that I sort of buried deep rather than just keep smiling and do the right thing and you know obviously you want to be a good kind person you want to move through the world peacefully but I think when you start suppressing whole parts of yourself and like you said parts of your childhood which you were like I cannot let other people see this I cannot talk about it that I think becomes very uncomfortable later down the line you know it eventually is like everything if you over exaggerate or you do if you ever do anything it will eventually you'll have to address it because it will not be out of balance.

15:49So yeah, that's exactly what happened. I did it and I pushed forward because I'm very stoic. In fact, I love the stoics. I've pushed forward and, but eventually it's like, hello, anybody up there? Is this not working? This is getting more uncomfortable. And it wasn't until I was forced to do it. And that often happens with us human beings. We don't look at things until we're forced to. And then, you know, because of how I conduct my life, I look at that now as a positive, even if it's really painful. Yeah, well, because you're forced to change and you're forced to look at stuff you don't want to look at and you can't run away from stuff.

16:31I think that's what I've realized too is I've certainly been on the run quite a lot in life, like just run away from the stuff that you don't want to look at. Keep running, keep working, keep busy, keep preoccupied. It always catches up with you and you have to have a look at it. I mean, that's what you've done exceptionally well with this book. You have dug around in all the messiness, all the corners that you didn't want to look at. But being respectful of other people, not dissing people. No, no, no. But you're telling your version of events. Everyone knows that's your story. When you look back to your childhood and the stuff that you were trying to cover over and not look at, you've got your mum's voice in your ear, this stays in the house.

17:04How does it feel to then talk about your dad, your granddad's alcoholism, the violence in the house? you know does it is there a sense of liberation that comes with the discomfort I think there is some sense of liberation but to be honest with you because I've just started doing promotion and the book is not out yet it's not out till the 25th but reading uh doing the audible uh part of the book I would have to stop and cry and I think that's cathartic and I'm hoping in the end it will be cathartic and also you know I've had such an incredible life I also was reminded of the amazing things you know it's uh because like you absolutely i've run all my life run push forward push forward push forward and uh so you know there's a price to pay for that because and it's not that i want to sit and i'm certainly at the one of my big things is i never want to get stuck never so if i have the courage to you know take it up look at it what is that tried it and i've done therapy, of course, and, you know, and then put it on the side.

18:10It doesn't have to be pushing up and you're pushing it. It's no fight going on and it's not right up here. So I think ultimately it is important to look at the pain, go through the pain, accept the pain and almost, I don't even like that I'm saying this, but it's almost necessary to almost embrace the pain. And like you said, it dissipates the shame. Yeah. And, you know, when you're a little child and your parents are literally knocking the shit out of each other physically because there was alcoholism I mean not that in Glasgow you'd ever use that they'd say oh Aisy likes a good drink you know but um it's obvious my father was an alcoholic because his father his father was and um and it's a family disease and so um I'm looking at it and I'm I've done a lot of work around it that has liberated me good that's the key and I only want to grow I don't want to be stuck you know so that's what I that's I think and I hope what the book's done for me and if anyone else gets anything from it it's a win-win situation without a doubt I mean your relationship with alcohol has been complicated back when you were starting out and you were around all of these big rock bands who were excessive and decadent, you were actually very against getting messed up.

19:33You were like, I don't want to drink loads. I don't want to do drugs. I was frightened. You were scared, yes. But then much, much later down the line, in your 60s, that's when you started to realise, oh my God, I'm drinking every day. It was a bit of a slippery slope for you at that point in your life. It certainly was. It wasn't until in my 60s that I really admitted. There's the key. I mean I love the word denial somebody says to me and that's not a river in Egypt denial denial is pushing it down like you said and then it goes in the dark people can get sick we can get very sick from holding the stress and it's so amazing that we could talk about that today I mean because let's face it in the 60s was I going to talk about the hard stuff no they wanted to see Lulu And also rock and roll.

20:26The music business is fun. Talking about your misery is not fun. But at this point in life, I am so grateful to people like yourself, young people who talk about the glitches in their life, the problems they've had to deal with, and bring it out. And then everyone goes, oh, yeah, I had the same thing. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I do. I've got absolutely fun. I'm the same. And everything you said before is exactly what I've written in my book. You know, there is so many similarities. and you know I'm part of a fellowship now because I admitted I am an alcoholic um you know I'm in this fellowship that people say that and as soon as you say it out loud and people relate and you know everybody's got the same story but other alcoholics have similar stories and someone said to me don't listen to the differences listen to the similarities and this healing takes place and then because of the fellowship that I'm in, there's disciplines every day.

21:25I'm actually very disciplined. So with the drinking, I managed to control it until it started to control me. And then I was miserable. And I was in, I mean, I haven't had a drink since the 3rd of November, 2013. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yes. Yes, come on, Lily. I feel so much. it's incredible how much better I feel you know more clarity um joy I mean and I always have joy I'm that kind of person you know I don't I mean and I'm lucky enough not to have a chemical depression but I would get down but and also I was a very highly functioning alcoholic what do you think led you in your 60s at that point where you were drinking too much was it just a whole A backlog of stuff.

22:15I think it's a backlog, a build-up. And, of course, I'm someone who's taken – I've always been like a carer, you know. I'd always looked after my siblings. And I'm just that kind of – but one girlfriend once said to me when I was going out with this guy, I remember, don't mother him. I mean, that's what I do. That's what I do. So I've always, like you said, run. Yeah. and taking care of business everywhere, everything okay. And even if I would be drinking at night excessively and land in the bed like, I would be up next morning, brush up, get going. Highly functioning. So you convince yourself, I'm okay.

22:57It's not a problem. It's not a problem. You hear that a lot. And it's so great that I actually realized it was a problem. It got too painful. But I did it secretly. Nobody knew. Nobody knew that I was going through what I was going through because of that deep-rooted dislike of myself. You know, God, that part of myself was like, oh, God, why haven't you got yourself together? Look at the age you are. This is ridiculous, you know. But thank you, God. Thank you, God. You know, I finally, I got recovery. And it's one of the most magical things in the world. There's acceptance. there's you drop any resentments i mean you just do the work you do what you're advised to do you know be disciplined and certainly don't have a drink that's the most important thing yeah and um so that doesn't cloud your judgment it doesn't affect your the chemicals in your body you're kind of cleaner yeah and therefore like there's a bubble inside me there's a little i noticed one day after I got into recovery, I first went into recovery, I'm walking down the street and the weather was a bit like today, you know, sunny.

24:14And I just feel this little thing. I'm thinking, is that a bubble? And we bubble inside. And I thought, well, it is kind of. I don't know how else to describe it. And I was just happy to be alive, excited about, you know, looking forward to my, and today, 76, I'm still looking forward to my future. I'm really, a lot going down there, you know. I mean, you're busier than ever. For goodness sake. And I like that. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

24:54No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you.

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27:01I mean, when you started on that recovery journey, do you then, because you have clarity, do you then have to sift through the stuff you weren't looking at? 100%. Yeah, that's not fun. That's where you have to have the courage to go for it. And the support. You don't do it on your own. No. That's the big key. So anybody who thinks they have a problem and just doesn't know what to do, I mean, how could I be chatty Cathy here? never say to someone I need help I need help because I'm losing myself and I you know I'm not happy and and I know what the drinking I mean how many people do I know in recovery yeah probably everybody I know exactly everyone you've ever worked with yeah yeah yeah so it's just a very but you know it's all about timing in our lives I think it is oh my time for the Time to talk, time to clear out, time to move forward.

27:58And I mean, I've reinvented myself probably in my 20s, in my 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. I mean, that makes me so excited. It's so fun to have that constant opportunity to reinvent. And there's no one stopping us but ourselves. Exactly. We always get in our own way, you know. And then when we clear it, we can start again. And it's so exciting. I love it. It is. What it is, it's this tremendous hope. There is. Do you know what, though? The funny thing is, sometimes when you reinvent yourself, and it's not like you've gone out and decided to get a haircut and get new clothes. It's a much deeper seated situation.

28:43It's the whole deal. It's the whole thing where you decide to, whether it's have a different outlook or, you know, stop people pleasing or whatever it might be. It's up to the individual. but it doesn't always please those around you when you have that change. I even had someone, it was a man, more recently, write something on Instagram really salacious about me and he put, oh, what reinvention is she talking about? What is she spouting about now or something? And I thought, first of all, fuck you. Doesn't he have anything else to do? No, clearly no. But secondly, like, oh, okay, so that's bothered him that I want to change or have a new chapter because he clearly isn't.

29:22It's frightening. It's frightening. It is frightening. It's frightening to do but it's frightening for those people around you. Frightening for someone. When you make that change, the people around you have to adjust. Yeah. They have to, oh, oh, oh. And you know, you used to do that dance with them and now you're no longer doing that dance. You're doing the da, da, uh, uh, da, da. Whatever it is, you know what I mean? You're doing your thing. Yes. But they can't do that. So they're like, oh, oh, oh, oh. What does this mean for me? Yeah. It's a tricky one and then you've got to navigate that And that's where I think, again, you need the support.

29:52You need to know that you're committed to it. There's discipline and courage involved in that. And like-minded people around you who are on the same journey, the same part of their journey, maybe even if they're younger, they're even on that part. And I think, you know, when I was a kid, that whole thing about being scrappy, you know, and I mean, I didn't push people or fight with people because I was a bad person. But it's how you survived in Glasgow. in those days. You know, you didn't say, can we have a talk later? I'd like to discuss, you know, how we're going forward with this relationship.

30:28No. You know? But isn't it funny how, like those parts of yourself that you were either told keep that hidden or you started to not like. I had the same with parts of, I guess if I look back at footage of me on YouTube and I'm like 15, I'm like, all right, mate, I'm talking like a chimney sweep, like a little Victorian Cockney chimney sweep. And Liza Doolittle. Yeah, literally. And for years I was like, oh God, I can't even bear it. I can't really look at myself. And actually, you end up going, I'm now at the age where I'm like, oh, thank God I was like that. Thank God I was sort of determined and fearless and put myself out there.

31:01And all the stuff like, you know, you call that bit of yourself the scrappy bit. That's what's got you to where you're at today. And you start to love that part of yourself. That's a very good point, you know, because sometimes, you know, I would like, Lulu, you know, I've got to do this part, you know. most of the time because, you know, music is my first love and it will be my last. It's all about the music has saved my life many, many, many times. And I talk about that in the book and how amazing, how difficult it is to be in the music business as a child, as a young woman, as a woman, and navigate all that.

31:41But then at the end, I love Lulu because when I go on that stage and I'm Lulu and I'm giving it what for. I bring a little bit of Marie, the little rough part of me, the big rough part of me. But, you know, it's not being pushed down. No. This is the key. I mean, you're a mother. You have to wear a certain hat when you're dealing with your children, when you're dealing with the school, your wife. You are now not married. Are you married now or are you divorced? Limbo land. Limbo land. So you're there. I mean, I've been there twice. Yeah. So, and then, you know, dealing with our parents is another hat.

32:23So you've got your own mask. Mine were professional. Mine was deep, deep rooted. Yeah. And it was flying. Yeah. So I, you know, I held on to Lulu and she was doing very well. But then I, something about, you know, where is the other part? I mean, I didn't even say where is the other part of me. It was uncomfortable and I had to ask the questions. There's the key. There's the key. Curiosity. I'm curious. and if I fall down or I get stuck because people say to me what's your secret what's your secret people are very kind to me and complimentary most of the time and when they say you know what's your secret you know you you're young or you're young for your age and all that well youth isn't just about the candles on on you know it's not about the numbers it's about the spark in your eyes Yes.

33:10Yes. And then if you've got that spark and that goes, so you ask, I figure, I heard somebody say this, you've knocked down, you're knocked over or you're disappointed or you're stuck. Ask yourself, what next? What's going to happen next? Yeah. And then that's like oxygen. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't run out of breath. So if people say to me, what's your thing? I think maybe that's part of it, you know. There's always something coming. Yes. You're never like, oh, this is it. oh well I'll just sit in this and feel like shit it's like what's next? Women at 40 used to say well you know the kids are now at school and they don't need me as much and blah blah blah so what can you do?

33:50Yeah too right. You've undoubtedly got a talent that is hell down there that has to come up. Yeah without a doubt. And like I said from my 20s I thought it was all over because I couldn't get hit records and you know I'd had some and I wanted more and I wanted to be relevant and I didn't want to lose my job So I changed. I did things and I've done it again and again and again. So, yeah, I mean, that's probably one of my secrets. You talk about that era of your life in the book in great detail, you know, sort of that frustration that you weren't getting the songs that you wanted, that sort of soulfulness.

34:23And you ended up doing, again, because of this obedience, it's sort of been beat into you, like you will say yes to everything and your manager would come up with these sort of lighthearted TV shows for you to do or very mainstream stuff that didn't necessarily feed your soul but it was paying the bills and you were getting your face out there and doing your thing. And I heard all the common sense of why it's good to do it. You're building a career. I mean I'm always building a career. Yeah yeah. But I understood that but it didn't sit comfortably all the time and I think young women today are really much better at that.

34:58You see when I started there was there was nobody I I said, well, look how they've done it. Like today, a young person will have, they've watched Christina Aguilera, they've watched Britney, they've watched The Ups, The Downs. It was you and a bunch of men. It was you and the Stones and the Beatles. And they were also still finding their way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's fascinating to look at that. It is. I mean, you had an incredible collaborative relationship with David Bowie and also sex. Yes. With David Bowie, which, I mean, I am fascinated by David Bowie. You know what? I have never said yes, I had sex with David Bowie until now.

35:34This is the first time. This is the first time I've said it because I've always said, you know, I chose not to speak about it. No. It was private. And if I'm 100 % honest, which I have decided that's what I'm going to be, I think I was slightly pissed. Yeah. I can't really remember. only to say that he got me there and we were in his room and you know we performed the acts and I don't have to go into bloody details because I can't actually remember details but I wouldn't share them anyway I do have boundaries yeah yeah I'm learning to have boundaries yeah but the point is I did and I was it was an incredible experience to work with a guy like that yeah to be in his orbit and to be so you know he's honored me I mean he was just he was fascinated by your talent he was fascinated he was you could tell by even the conversations that you can recall in the book with him that he was mesmerized by your voice saw that rawness that like Marie bit of you that had that saw the scrappy the power yeah the power and that's why you were like magnets for each other collaboratively musically you know you really gelled and you at the time felt like it was perhaps jarring because you were doing mainstream.

36:55You were doing... I was on Saturday night television. And he was... This was the Ziggy Stardust era? Yes. Aladdin Sane era? Yes. He was, you know, being quirky and weird and cool and doing all of this out of their stuff. I mean, he was the coolest dude on the block and I was like, he said he's going to record me. He's going to... Yeah, people say all sorts of things. But I'll tell you, as soon as I walked back to my room that first night, I got into my room in the hotel. Phone rang. It was him. I just left him. And it was, you know, we're going to do this and I'm going to da-da-da-da-da. And he was like, oh, no, no, no, no.

37:28I was like, oh, my God, I think he's serious. So I was, I felt, you know, I'll be honest with you. I'm only looking for love. I'm only looking to be loved and to give love. And I don't mean I want to have affairs and it's about sex. It's about a much deeper thing than that. and I've that was we shared and I felt he saw me where my record companies were saying do boy that's the song and do I'm a tiger and I'm like and I went home and I put on Ray Charles yeah you know so but he saw through that he said they don't know what to do with you they don't get you they don't get your voice So for a young guy to actually look deeply into a person or to have taken interest in the person, and it just happens to be David Bowie, you know.

38:27But I'll tell you something that happened with Bowie that I've also never really said is that he was a chameleon. I mean, there's never been anyone like him. I mean, people do try to emulate him. But he is the original. Yeah. But he won that one. I think we were in the Chateau Aireville. And he lit a Gitan or whatever. There was French cigarettes. He smoked Dis Bleu or something like that. Very cool, man. Very cool. And meanwhile, I was smoking at the time. I was smoking consulates. They were mint. Oh, love a mint fag.

39:07I mean, how cool was I? Not. So he told me to smoke a Gitan. And he lit one. And we were in the canteen. We were sitting. Just the two of us. and he leaned forward to me and he looked in my eyes and I leaned forward and I thought oh my god what's he gonna say I think you could lose a bit of weight he said well not what you are I mean I was crushed I bet you were because I don't think I was fat but you know he was emaciated and I think he really wanted to take me and redesign me yeah to get me to a place that he thought was better for me etc etc and sadly you know the thing didn't I would have loved it to have continued but you know when I then went to New York to do the next lot of recordings David was not in a place that I felt comfortable with because he was doing a lot of drugs and I mean I'm not saying letting the cat out of the bag it's documented yeah of course and um I was hanging around a lot I recorded can you hear me and I recorded another thing called dodo um I'm a dodo interesting lyric but with David Bowie it was just different it was different you know yeah um but I you know it didn't go any further than that because I decided I'm going back to London yeah this is really not I'm not comfortable and how amazing you listen to that intuition even at you know at that young age you were like I'm listening to myself I think we all know everything but it's whether we allow ourselves to and that's where my meditation comes in yeah You know, what happens is there is actually a chemical difference in your body when you meditate.

40:50And I've been doing it for over 40 years. It doesn't mean to say I've got all the answers. I've got my life sorted completely. But there's a difference. So I think I knew there are these drugs around. and I don't know, am I going to get caught and give in or, you know, remove yourself. And that really is the most common sense thing to do. Remove yourself from a conversation that's going on with people that is distasteful to you or is just bitching and you think, remove yourself, politely or not, however you feel you should do it. And so that's what I did with Bowie. And of course, he thought I was angry with him.

41:32I wasn't, I mean, I was maybe frustrated, but I wasn't angry with him. I mean, I just loved him and I just loved his talent. But I thought, oh, you can't just sit around here. No, I mean, I think it's remarkable considering you hang around with all of the most, you know, the most famous rock stars, the absolute rock superstars of the heyday, some of which are still going strong like the Stones. And how are they? Who knows? They're remarkable. But, you know, you were in the mix of that absolute debauchery, Yet you stayed really going down the straight, narrow path of this is my career. I'm not going to mess it up.

42:05I think that's amazing. I think it was fear-based. Right. I was driven by fear. And, you know, I also have, which I think, thank God in my character, that I can feel the fear and do it anyway. You remember that book? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that book, Susan Jeffers. Love that book. But so I do it. I feel the fear and I go, okay, let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pull up your diapers, babies. We're coming in, you know. That's what I do. And sometimes it's good. Sometimes, you know, it's too much. But that's my character, you know, and I've come to learn to not always embrace myself and love myself, but more than I ever did.

42:42Because I still can't say to myself in the mirror, I love you. I go, eww. It's so awkward. No, but I think it's my actions. Yeah. And the way I lead my life now is different and it feels better. Because you're treating yourself nicely? having some respect and actually you know what more than anything forgiving myself for the things that I didn't get right that is such a big one I am still on I struggle a learning curve with that one yeah there's some stuff I can there's some stuff where it's like I it's so painful to look at some actions or decisions that you've made and to properly forgive yourself I mean it's powerful if you can do it my god yeah powerful I mean when you look back certainly writing a book you know You are quite literally looking through the entirety of your life.

43:30And obviously your work life started at 15 when the spotlight's on you, there's pressure on you, there's demands, there's opportunity. It's just a roller coaster. Do you look back and have any regrets? I don't waste my time regretting, really, except it will creep in occasionally. I think, oh, I could have done that differently, of course. But I have read enough. I've read every self-help book there is out there. I have done therapy. I've given up alcohol. So there is space now for me if I can't love myself or forgive myself completely, I can accept. And that's a big word in my life. Accept the things you cannot change.

44:16That's a hard one. Yeah. It's a hard one. That's a serenity prayer. It's peace. Yeah. And, you know, there's another hook that I hang things on. because I've read other people's autobiographies, their memoirs, and how they've gotten through difficult times. And I've thought, oh, and they've said something. I've thought, oh, I've got to remember that. I like to hang on to little things, you know, that I accept. Acceptance is so good. I mean, Don Henley. Don Henley's forgiveness, forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore. There's that whole song. If you listen to the lyric, it's all about that.

44:50So I remember things and if anyone says something to me, how did you do it? And I can share what I've learned. And that's what you're doing, which I think is so healing for ourselves, but hopefully healing for somebody else. You only hope so, don't you? Sharing stories, talking about things that feel deeply uncomfortable, that it somehow makes a difference to somebody. But it has done with me. So I think, well, maybe it'll do it with you. Yeah, exactly. Somebody's helped you. You know, you can give a little bit back. Too right. So that's why I'm writing the book too, is to do that and to relieve myself of carrying secrets.

45:30Yeah, secrets eat away at you. They really eat away at you. And I think, you know, if you can find even one trusted person that you feel safe saying that thing to, that will be enough. I mean, it's certainly the biggest start. The biggest step. The biggest step. And people never react to like, I shared something with someone recently that I care about deeply and I felt sort of embarrassed and nervous to say this thing about myself. And, you know, you're thinking the worst. They're going to go, I don't want to ever meet up with you ever again or be your friend. And, of course, that's never the case.

46:03People are like, oh, I have a similar situation in my life. I've got a worse story than that. Let me tell you mine. And then you're laughing at you. It's the best. And that is the great thing. It's the great thing. That is one of the great things, I think. And I hope it's in the book, you know, because it's hard to be totally objective, you know. but about yourself. But I hope that that comes through, that my life has had so much joy that I have a lot of gratitude for what, it's the glass half full, not the glass half empty, which is a great saying again. That's how I look at my life now. And in fact, it's not that I've made these changes, I've forced them, I've learned, I've studied, which I have, but you can't force change.

46:45It sort of happens. you kind of imbibe somebody said to me the other day what does imbibe mean what is imbibe what's another word for imbibe I always think of it as like drinking something in you're like drinking in whatever that is and you absorb it and that's why I would never talk about being an alcoholic before but that's the thing I think too that's fantastic you know change doesn't happen snap because you make the decision And there's, you know, you have to let it sit. You have to absorb it, the understanding of it. And, you know, so therefore in my life I've been able to make amends, which is such an incredible thing to do.

47:30Oh, God, it's so powerful. But I would have been embarrassed to say, look, I have to speak to you and tell you how sorry I am about the stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, saying sorry is a huge one, but it is so beautiful if you can do it. Powerful. it actually has a very powerful effect on our bodies, on our mind I think so, I think so I had a fallout with someone a while back and I made the first move to apologise which was terrifying because you don't know if you're going to be rejected I think that's the kind of fear that your apology will be rejected and it wasn't and I'm actually so much closer with this person now because we went through the whole big bumpy journey of falling out and now being even better friends because it's gone deeper, the relationship is deeper yeah it's more meaningful And, you know, in the fellowship they say it's important to make amends and not be expecting any particular result.

48:20Yeah. You know, so if the person isn't ready to hear it, first you say, I'd like to speak to you. I'd like to make amends for something that I believe I did that was not, it's bad behavior. Are you ready to hear it? Yeah. And that's the great thing. That's another thing I learned that I can say to a person, can I? and if they say no you have to take it and you have to think well they're not ready yet it's not their time but I have made the effort exactly and then if you like with your friend it's I tell you a story about me my my best girlfriend is an actress called was an actress called Peggy Lipton Peggy lived in LA and she died in 219 but I remember at some point and while I was going through therapy and such like and she's American I mean she's LA they've done loads of therapy So at one point, we had a thing about this guy that she was flirting with.

49:09And I said, you know, I quite like him. I don't know why you're flirting with him. She went, whatever she said, I took it a certain way. And it looked like she didn't hear me. She carried on. Well, I was heartbroken. My best friend, I love her to bits. So at one point, I said to her, look, this is uncomfortable because I'm resentful now. I've got resentment. And it's not, I love you. And I don't want to feel this way. how about we have somebody help us to get through this and my sister's a psychotherapist so wow that's handy i said to yeah it is and i i said to peggy which how would you feel if edwina was the sort of mediator the third person she said oh i'd love it i love edwina so edwina came in and we're chatting and we were talking and when when you said this when you did that and i felt you know all that stuff and then something happened and i i was like not happy with whatever the conversation was and my sister said can I come in here yes yes of course she said Peggy didn't say what you just said I said yes she did she did she said that that's what she said and Edwina said no she didn't repeat what you just said and I repeated whatever it was and Peggy said no I didn't say that then I felt really uncomfortable I thought I'm losing it she said would you like me to tell you what Peggy said and she told me what Peggy said and I went that's not what I heard you see yeah my mind was so busy you know calculating going over it being smart assed it was and you know that was the relief it was a breakthrough yeah with Peggy and I and until the day she died she was my best my best day but it's horrible admitting that you've got things wrong.

50:52It's the worst. And it's liberating sometimes. But it is liberating. It's awkward in your own bed. You've got a bit red in the face and you're like, oh, I'm an idiot, you know, which I often am. We all are. No one wants to say that, but we all are. We piss, you know, we piss people off. We fuck up all the time. It's like, that's life. That's life.

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53:15A lot of our listeners are of a similar age to me, like mid-40s. And you had a particularly turbulent 40s. There was a lot of loss. Your manager and you parted ways. Of 20 odd years. She'd been there since you were a child. She was like a surrogate mother. She was like a surrogate mom. And then your marriage ended with John Frieda, who you'd been married to, you had a child with. how did you navigate that it's a weird time in your 40s there can be lots of change there's a lot of questioning your life and who you are and what you want for the second sort of act if you will what got you through that era um of well definitely not just off the top of my head I threw myself back into music I hadn't recorded for years and then I did an album called independence that put me back front in the front and totally my profile was up and I had success and the music thing is always like oh that's my soul that's my soul you know that's that's that's the thing that's always been there you know is my music so that was a success my brother who walked the walk with me because he said we've got to go to publishers you know in the old days the publishers used to send songs to your record producer your an hour man i actually went to the publishers he said they're gonna they're not gonna believe it when you walk in because people like you don't walk in and say have you gone in in songs that might work for me can you let me hear some stuff and you make an appointment before and he said they were like lulu wow she's still around well i thought right so you know i got my the old scrappy marie came out she came out Oh, Marie.

54:58I'll fucking show them am I still around. And, you know, I bet they think I can't even sing anymore. I'll definitely show them. So that really got me through. But at the same time, I was so broken by, and obviously, you know, what we were talking about before, all the insecurities, all the thinking I'm not good enough and who am I anyway, who the hell am I, you know, was bubbling up. so I went to the Meadows which is a rehab clinic in Arizona that I had been advised to someone I knew who had done the work and said you know your you know your trauma is all coming up because I felt I'd been abandoned and I felt let down and I felt that probably I was responsible for it because that's where my head goes and I could have done it better and I should have could woulda, woulda.

55:51And so I went and I did a lot of work on myself. And I realized that, you know, the way I behaved in my marriage, my husband didn't just leave me. It obviously built up. I was again in denial about what was going on. And I started to look at myself. What was your part in this. Now, I'm very fortunate that I could pay to go to rehab and that I had people suggest that to me. And it's literally just taking yourself off, working with highly accomplished people in the area of psychology and healing and recovery. And so that helped. I had new tools, new record then take that yes take that and then Tina Turner records this song it's a worldwide hit the first song my brother and I wrote so I felt like boy have I got my power back but I you know so I did as much work as I could for that time and not to say that there wasn't more work to do quite clearly there was but that helped me that helped me my work because I love my work I'm sure you're the same I can throw it back at you I'm so grateful I love it I know you do and you're so good at it and why wouldn't you keep doing it and you know so I got a lot of I was valued for my success in my work and I was feeling I reinvented myself and that's what I say to any woman turn the page you never know what the next chapter is going to be because I know I've done it I've done it.

57:33I've done it. Turn the page. You might be surprised. How exciting. And, you know, there's hope for, like, goodness knows what else you're going to do in your life. And your 40s? You're in your 40s? Yeah. It's just beginning. It hasn't even started. Yes. That's what I know from my own experience. And I know that it's okay for me to talk about myself and tell my truth in a book, a memoir. It's not just about me talking about me because I'm sick of me, to be honest with you. But I think, you know, look, look, it can happen. I'm the proof. Exactly. God, I feel fired up. This is like the Lulu pep talk that all of us need.

58:10We need this on loop, just playing in the morning. So we're like, turn the fucking page. What's happening there? It's just exciting. It's exciting. Get knocked down and then think, now what am I going to do? Yes. And that's what I say to myself if I feel stuck. I hate the idea of being stuck. Don't know what to do. Don't know where I'm going. So I ask myself the questions. and I have things written down. I've got books and pads and iPads. And, you know, it's, and that to me is exciting. I don't like to use the word exciting too much because in my, not that one shouldn't use the word, but I overdo everything.

58:49So I try to limit my excitement mode because excitement means you can only come down. But if you, and what I'm aiming for in my life is to have an even keel, is to accept the huge fabulous wins with the same equilibrium and equipoise that I accept. The fuck, that didn't happen. I wanted that. Move on. Yeah. So I have worked on myself. I love that. In other words. And I'm really only interested in growing. Yeah. That's all I'm interested in, in growing and being loving. and you know we talked about being kind to oneself because I'm tough I mean even today my new manager and it's a young woman I have a young woman and a young man and Shoshana will say to me God you're so tough on yourself just can't you just accept the win

59:44actually yeah I can you know you can it's your mind space you get into a habit of just being hard on yourself. And you know and I've learned all that you know and I know you know so much of this you know it's but a lot of people maybe don't know it. First of all people don't know that you can get help if you think you're drinking too much. And there's no shame in it. And you also don't have to tell anybody. You don't have to announce it in the papers. I decided no I'm going to get to know the language I'm going to let this land and I'm going to get really comfortable with my recovery and then when I'm ready I'll talk about it.

1:00:19Now that. Be ready. It's not being a pushover. That's making a very important decision and not handing it over to other people, which I did all the time when I was young. I thought they knew better. And even if I thought they were full of shit, I thought, well, at least they're more experienced. They must know. And they've got that big job. And they're all men with suits. And I think if I'm honest, and I don't know if I've actually said this in the book because I've said so much, I think I've always been slightly afraid of men. and I think that had to do with my father being aggressive. Yeah. And my father was also, let me say, a loving, funny, hysterical man.

1:00:59But the alcohol, you know, ate away at all his good points. And, you know, they would come out. And that's what it does. If you don't deal with stuff, and he had, my parents were damaged. They had really tough childhoods. And they, you know, they weren't like you or me. They learn about therapy. They learn there's no shame in having therapy and you've got to deal with it, bring it into the light because it festers in the dark. All of the things we've learned. My parents weren't sophisticated and they were of a certain age. Yeah, they didn't have the opportunity to have that kind of conversation.

1:01:32And my father, I loved my father. I loved my mother even though I hated them at times because of their behavior. Yeah. You know? And I mean, to talk in this book about something that I had blanked and pushed down, connected with my father, that I actually put my father in jail when I was about, I don't know if I was 11, 12 or 13, but around that age. They were fighting so much and I was frightened one of them would hurt the other one and it would be fatal and I was I was the eldest of the four kids and I well there was only three at that time and I ran out the house and I said you've got to help me my mom my mommy and daddy are frightened and one of them's going to kill the other until they came with me the police it was frightening to do that I was like I said I feel the fear and do it anyway.

1:02:30And that's some of what my guru, Gurmai, says that we know everything. Anything she tells us we know already, she's just reminding us that we know it. Yeah. And isn't that true of everything? Well, we always assume everybody else knows better than us. That's just the thing, isn't it? That's it. Like, oh, they know how to do life and I don't. I'm winging it. But everyone else got the book and I didn't get the book with all the rules in it. And it's bollocks. And I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough I'm not this enough I'm not blah blah blah whatever the the old tape is saying but then you know I got they came they took my father they took him to jail overnight he came back and she I mean it was so painful and so frightening but I can tell you not long after we had the music on and we were all singing and dancing you know my life was like it was tough with the two of them bloody eejits they were I could see that they were crazy and it was not good.

1:03:31But, and I was, you know, I was forced really, without anyone saying, I was forced into growing up in a certain way, even though I was a child and completely naive. But then there was that love and that, so somewhere inside me, I accepted them, I forgave them, but I didn't fully forgive them until I got older. Well, it's a life's work, all of this stuff, isn't it? It's a life's work. There's no sort of age we can pin, you know, that kind of completion to. Like, oh, when I'm in this era of my life, I'll understand it all. Forgive everybody. I'll be sorted. Feel fine. It's just all day, every day, forever.

1:04:09And, you know, that's the only way that we can actually absorb it. Yes. Because if we get it all at once. Yeah, it's too much. There'll be a lot of little holes like a colander and it'll all seep out, will it? Yeah. But that's also why we have to be reminded of what we already know or we think we don't know. Yeah. And then we know it and then we have to remind ourselves again. And then we have to practice it again. I know the more I practice, and that's why I know when I go on stage, after 62 years, I got it. Yes. Are you nervous? No. No, I fucking got this, mate. I can't wait to get on. I get on and I'm like, you know, screaming and singing and then, you know, heart wrenching.

1:04:50I love it. I mean, I probably know the answer to this question because you've just said what you've said. but where is your happy place? Oh, of course. Where is my happy – oh, the immediate thing that jumps in is with my grandchildren. I mean, because they're just – they're joyful. Yeah. They're funny. They're smart. Yeah. And you know what? Now I've got to the point. Nana. First of all, Bella is 15. Oh, God, she'll kill me. I'm talking about her. but you know what she does to me and I wish I knew and Teddy they do both do the same they go Nana and they put the camera of my phone right up here and they take a picture of me and they're screaming with laughter oh yeah there's a big nose what is that they don't look at that look at that and then she because she's 15 I don't hear from her so much right she's got her own social scene going on sure for sure but now she'll just be there oh it's Bella so my phone goes it's Bella I go hi honey she goes hi Nana look my friends just want to say hi say hi and she holds it And I go, hi.

1:05:56All right, Nana. Bye. Oh, so cute. That's such a lovely little relationship. I love it. You know, that's... It's not a place, but it is a place. It's a place deep inside me. Of course. Yeah. And, you know, because I didn't have more children. I mean, I have the most fabulous son, of course. I wouldn't say anything else. No mother would. Although I would if he was a sod. I would. I'd say he's a bit of a... I would tell you he was a problem. He's a good one. He's a good one. So he and I have got such a great relationship. but all they do is laugh at me. All they do is, everything I do is funny. Oh, left, Nana.

1:06:30Oh, God, Nana, turn left here. And I'm like, it's amazing how I survive without you guys. And they laugh and I say, I'm so happy that I'm such a source of joy to you. Yeah, my mum is like this with my children. Yeah, exactly the same. So it's like we're all the same. Exactly the same. But it's a great place to be. So lovely. That's my happiness. So lovely. well I am so grateful that you wrote this book I got so much from it not only the beautiful storytelling but just how willing you've been to be so honest and share the tougher bits that I think will help so many people out there Lulu you are a legend I love you a legend a legend thank you so much oh my god imagine Lulu being your nan that's like the best thing ever I would love Lulu to be my nan.

1:07:20She's just the most phenomenal woman. The life she has lived, the stories that she just told us, the wisdom that has come from those stories. In these moments, I feel so lucky to do this podcast. I get to sit here and just chat to people who have so much to say. Honestly, I never take it for granted. But in moments like that, I am just, I feel ecstatic that I get the opportunity to do this. And I really hope that you enjoyed listening to that too. Lulu, you absolute legend. Her memoir, If Only You Knew, is out now. Massive thanks again to Lulu, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, just keep being you.

1:08:33We'll see you next time.

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