Major Tim Peake: Perspective, risk, and 3D printed organs

0:01Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that pushes the perceived limits of human capability. Today, I'm chatting to Major Tim Peake. We had this 10 minutes to watch the sun go down. And that was the opportunity when I was able to just put the tether on and push away from the space station and float in the blackness. And then you kind of think, well, hang on a second. We're pretty clever, us humans. I know we give ourselves a hard time. And until we find other intelligent life, we are the consciousness of the universe. And you think, well, this is where we come from.

0:33We are stardust. We originated out here. And look what we've done. We're now looking back on ourselves, looking back on our planet. So you go from feeling very small and insignificant to actually almost feeling part of the universe itself. Only 628 people in human history have left Earth. Tim is one of them. After nearly 18 years of military service, Tim replied to an online recruiting advert for the European Space Agency. This was a massive deal because UK citizens had previously been unable to apply to become ESA astronauts. You'll hear more in this chat about the mindset that made him jump at the chance of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

1:15He went on to become the first British ESA astronaut to visit the International Space Station. Now he's written a book that traces the lives of the other remarkable people who forged the way for space travel. I was so fascinated reading this book. It's called Space, the Human Story. And it's just the most incredible insight into the dangers of space, the magic of it, and just the relatively humdrum too. I spoke to Tim remotely a couple of weeks ago and we covered so much. from the lessons we can learn about resilience and perspective from those who have been to space to the amazing scientific leaps happening in space that could benefit all of humanity.

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4:01Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:26Hey Tim! Hello Fern, how are you? I'm really good, it's great to see you. We have an unusual connection in the fact that you used to be neighbours with my parents, so Lynn and Mick, say hi. Oh, that's brilliant. They were so cool. And yeah, we used to live opposite them. And it was just so nice. We were during those lockdown periods as well. So we shared a few bottles of wine on the odd evening from a distance, of course, socially distanced, but it was great. Oh, they were desperate to say hi to you. So I've got that out of the way. Next on the list, I got the opportunity to read your brilliant book, which I just loved, Space, The Human Story.

5:03It was, first of all, that front cover. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's amazing. Yes, yeah. I mean, that's probably the most iconic or one of the most iconic space shots other than Earthrise, I think, taken on Apollo 8. But otherwise, it's that Bruce McCandless out on his little jetpack, is MMU, the Man Manoeuvring Unit. And he just looks so isolated, this tiny, tiny human figure suspended in space above the earth. And you think, wow, you know, I mean, on so many different levels, I think on a human level, an emotional level, and then from a professional level as the test pilot, I just think, goodness me, the risk involved there was immense.

5:40Oh, yeah. We're going to get onto all of those subjects chatting to you through this book. But But it's such a brilliant educational history on humans going into space. And there were so many things that I love learning about. I love learning about 26-year-old Tereshkova, the first woman in space, who I didn't know anything about at all, which was outrageous. So I love learning about her. I love learning about John Young's corned beef sandwich. Yes. I know that they were able to actually play the odd prank as well, although it didn't go down too well with the team at Washington. But no, no. But yeah, I mean, Tereshkova was amazing.

6:18And I learned so much research in the book as well. I found and there's so much information that's accessible today about what was happening in the Soviet Union back then that we didn't know about. And so over the years, that information has been released. And the whole that was another race. You know, they got wind of this NASA program, the woman in space program that NASA had started. And the Soviets just said, well, they're not going to beat us. you know, and Tereshkova was selected and flown in very, very short period of time. But she's an amazing woman. Yeah, incredible. And she's still alive today, right?

6:50Yes. Yeah. She sits in the Duma in Moscow. She's become involved in politics. Wow. Incredible. I mean, the research, I can't even imagine where you'd start with this. Looking at the whole history of the human story of space, it's immense. I mean, it must have taken you years to complete this book. Well, we kind of had to go through a filtering process. And I say we, I had two people helping me, Giles Smith and Nick Spall, people I've known for a long time. And they're both great people to work with. And Nick knows a huge amount about space. And we said, look, let's just filter out some of the stories and pick the main flow of over the years, the space stations that we've built and the places that we've been to, and then pick the stories that really tell that human element.

7:32And a few of the insights as well, you know, we want to have some fun along the way and some of the things that people wouldn't have known about or heard about. Oh, yeah. I laughed out loud several times reading this book. I mean, there's only 628 people in human history that have left the Earth and you are one of them. And that leads, obviously, to so many people being so intrigued by your experience and, as you said, the emotions around going into space. And I was really taken by the opening to chapter seven, where you quote an American news anchor who is reporting on the return of Apollo 11.

8:08And he said, you get the feeling that people think of these men, because obviously it was only men that could fly at the time, as not just superior men, but different creatures. They're like people who have gone into another world and returned. And you sense that they bear secrets that we will never entirely know. I mean, that's exactly how I feel about astronauts and cosmonauts. I kind of think, you know, you can't even imagine what that feeling is like. But also for you on a very human level, I'm imagining that's quite a burden to bear because you have experienced something totally extraordinary.

8:41But on the other hand, you're also a human going through very human experiences, being a father and, you know, bumbling through certain days of life. So does that feel like a heavy weight to carry that level of expectation? It does. I mean, there are so many things there in terms of that kind of balance between your private and your professional life. But the burden of being able to try and explain what you've been through and what you've seen is a difficult one. It's one I've tried to embrace because I think we are ambassadors for space as astronauts. It's our job. It's our duty to kind of report back and tell people about what it's like and what we're doing and why we're doing it.

9:19But it's very hard. And I remember speaking to Al Worden, who became a good friend from Apollo 15 and talking about his spacewalk. And he kind of looked at me and this was before I flew. And he just said, you're going to know when you come back why I find it really difficult to explain what it's about. And it is that it's that kind of difficulty of when you've left Earth's atmosphere and you look back and you see the planet against this black backdrop of space. you get a real shift in perspective you just see see things in a different way and I think it gives you a sense of belonging a sense of unity with earth and a sense of belonging to this place and we all have a sense of belonging we love home and and home starts out very local in your local village or city or wherever it is and then it might be county and then you it might be country and then it might be continent but when you go to space you look back you think I'm an earthling You know, I'm from there.

10:14That's mine. That's my planet. And it gives you that kind of sense of responsibility for being a good, you know, a good earthling, if you like. Yeah. And I think it's that kind of it's that that that shift. And I think that's what is very difficult to put into words. I think one of the most difficult questions for the Apollo astronauts and time and again, people just say, so what was it like? And how do you go and walk on the moon and then come back and tell somebody what was it like? I'm not sure there's even the sort of common language that could articulate that because it's other wildly. Yes.

10:48Yeah, absolutely. So let's get on to your spacewalk, because in the book, there's that brilliant, famous shot of you walking across the ISS about to sort out the power supply on the International Space Station. And you've got this huge grin on your face and you say in the book, it's your proudest moment. It's an extraordinary shot and it's an extraordinary moment. And again, something you can't put into words. But one explanation you do give is paradoxical in the sense that you say, you know, you're outside of the International Space Station. And you firstly sort of feel like you shouldn't be there.

11:24You're this fragile human. But also you feel like it's the most tranquil and natural thing ever. Yes. It's extraordinary. It is. And there's that real juxtaposition. And on the one hand, I don't think you get that unless you're allowed to relax a little bit, because when you're on a spacewalk, your primary focus is just, you know, don't let go, don't fall off. And being professional and being focused and having that mental clarity to do a good job the entire time. But we were lucky we had about 10 minutes to wait for the sun to go down. There was live electricity flowing through the solar panel.

11:59And Houston said, you know, you can't get to work until we go into darkness. And so we had this 10 minutes to watch the sun go down. And that was the opportunity when I was able to just put the tether on and push away from the space station and float in the blackness. And I kind of at the first you are feeling very, very vulnerable, very isolated, very remote. And this kind of fragile, tiny human who's only alive thanks to the technology of a spacesuit. And then you kind of think, well, hang on a second. We're pretty clever, us humans. I know we give ourselves a hard time and we haven't got everything right and we've got lots of challenges to overcome.

12:34But we're pretty smart. We're pretty clever. And until we find other intelligent life, we are the consciousness of the universe. And I think that's a responsibility that we all bear. But it's also a privilege. And you think, well, this is where we come from. We are stardust. We originated out here from the stars, from neutron stars, from supernova. And look what we've done. We're now looking back on ourselves, looking back on our planet. So you go from feeling very small and insignificant to actually almost feeling part of the universe itself. Yeah, I can imagine that it is just the ultimate perspective shifter in all ways.

13:09And I, you know, obviously I don't have the opportunity to go to space anytime soon, but I do this sort of stress management coping tool that I use. If I'm feeling really stressed out, I do what I call the zoom out. So I picture a sort of aerial view of me in whatever room I'm in at home. and then I sort of zoom out to an aerial view of the town I live in. Then I zoom out again to an aerial view of the UK, then planet Earth, then our galaxy, then all the galaxies and sort of realise, OK, I don't need to stress so much about this one tiny thing that I'm obsessing about right now. But you've got to, in actuality, experience that.

13:46I mean, does that perspective shift last? When you're back down on planet Earth and you are faced with awful traffic or just the small moments in the day that cause us all a bit of angst or stress, are you able to apply that sort of mindset? Yeah, that's really interesting to hear, actually, because that technique is perfect. It's exactly what you get on that holiday feeling, you know, getting away from it all and just being able to zoom out a bit. And yes, when you go into space, it's exactly that feeling. You look down on Earth and you think, well, there's that bustling planet down there with nearly eight billion people living on it.

14:20And here are you having this wonderful holiday feeling of being detached from all of that and being remote and isolated. It's the most wonderful environment because nobody can phone you. Only a few people can email you and they're not allowed to email you about work. They only have to email you about fun things. The only people who are allowed to give you any work is mission control over the radio or your daily schedule. And that's so organized and efficient. so you're in this wonderful isolated bubble and it's an incredibly peaceful tranquil feeling i mean it's very very busy place to work and live on board the space station um we're going flat out but but in many respects in terms of our mental health and that kind of offloading of all the daily clutter that surrounds us all those pressures that build up um we don't have that and when i get you know we're now back on earth of course you're surrounded by all of that again but i do take myself back there and it does last you know to answer your question yes and i'm always kind of transporting myself back to that quiet place and looking down at earth floating floating there and weightlessness and just having that moment where you can breathe again and just think yeah okay put things into perspective um you know calm down and uh you've been here before you've you've dealt with worse those kind of things and um and i think it's really important to to reflect on that kind of thing yeah i think if we all have the opportunity especially perhaps certain people in power on this planet to all have that experience of seeing our planet floating in infinite space.

15:46It could sort out a lot of our issues down here on the ground. It certainly could. I think that's another thing that you get when you come back from space, because you don't see any borders on Earth. When you see Earth, it's got this amazing geology. It's just strata and mountain zones and forests and deserts and oceans. And you're kind of fascinated about how the planet has formed over the billions of years and the last thing you think about are actual humans uh on that planet because you're just looking at this amazing living dynamic planet with its atmosphere its thunderstorms lightning the northern lights southern lights all of that um and and then when you think about the humans about where we are and our squabbles and our difficulties and our differences and you kind of think well yes you know we do need to collaborate.

16:33We're all sharing this planet eventually. And the atmosphere is so thin as well. You realise that, you know, wildfires in Canada affect the whole continent of America, dust storms in North Africa, cover Europe, and we're all sharing the same air. We've got the same problems. So I think it gives you that sense of unity. God, it really does. How are we going to get everyone into space to experience this? We need to work out an opportunity pretty quick. Of course, there's all of this wonder. And, you know, you had these small nuggets of time where you did get to ask those sort of big life questions or certainly ponder big thoughts, that 10 minute window before you got to work on the power supply on the space station.

17:17Or you mentioned these moments where you would look out the window and you would see tiny lights from fishing boats on the Gulf of Thailand, which just sounded so such a beautiful thing to witness. But of course, running parallel to that is unbelievable risk. And, you know, you mentioned several stories in this book of obviously shuttles exploding on the launch pad. And we all know about the Challenger and what a horrific disaster that was, which was broadcast live on the TV to millions of people. How on earth do you navigate that level of risk mentally? How do you stop yourself from catastrophizing and obsessing about the worst worry?

18:01And I say this from a very personal place because I am someone that worries way too much. And it's probably one of my biggest sort of barriers in life is that I become obsessional about certain worrying thoughts or catastrophizing. And it can hinder me at times. I know that's a problem for many people out there. So how do you navigate it when that risk is very real? That's a great question. It comes down to a sort of compartmentalization. But before you even get there, it is about acknowledging it, the fear, the worry and analyzing it. This is something I was doing years and years ago as a test pilot.

18:37And we would just take a very methodical approach to what is it that we think might cause us a problem? What might fail? Why might the aircraft go out of control? What are your fears? What are your worries and concerns? And analyze them and try and mitigate them wherever possible. And once you've done that, and we do this obviously with Spacelite, and we go through this incredible risk mitigation process, you end up having a whole load of information that you can do something about, you can control it. It might be extra training, it might be unusual scenarios that you'd never thought of before that you can plan and prepare for.

19:14It might be developing and designing bits of equipment that can help you solve things or make you safer in the environment you're working in. And so you then start to put all of these measures in place and coming up with solutions to your worries and your fears. What you're left with is the residual risk. And that's where we do. We have to acknowledge that and say, OK, we think we've done absolutely everything possible to be able to deal with the things that might come up. Now we've got this risk. Maybe it's a catastrophic failure of the rocket, an explosion that we didn't see and you can't do anything about.

19:46You just have to accept, you know, are you prepared to take that level of risk at an individual level, at a corporate level and make that personal decision? But in terms of being able to have some element of control over your life, I think that's what really helps is that level of methodical analysis of why am I worried? What's causing me fear and anxiety and what can I do about it and then do something about it? And I think it's that process that really helps. And then for the bit that you can't control, it's just acceptance. It is acceptance and becoming comfortable with it. I'm not sure there's any really good helpful advice for that because it's a very personal thing.

20:23Everybody has their own different levels of worry and fear and anxiety. And some people's thresholds are very high and some people's thresholds are very low. And it's just finding that ability to cope with not being able to control everything around you. Of course, we can't. We don't know what's coming in the next few days or few weeks, but we can make an intelligent guess about the kind of things that might happen and the kind of things we could do to prepare ourselves so that we're well armed for difficult eventualities that might be coming our way. And that's the element of control. And then that just, yeah, in terms of becoming comfortable with that uncertainty, I think that's just something I've always been, you know, I've lived with, I've always lived with uncertainty.

21:09I've always, you know, from a military environment, you're always expected to deal with the unexpected. And I kind of enjoy the challenge of that. But I'm not sure I've got any helpful advice as to what tricks or tools I use for it. I think it's always an interesting balance, isn't it, of who you are when you turn up on planet Earth and also how much practice you put into managing your stress levels. I think there's got to be a bit of both. Because I think, you know, like you say, some people do just have a higher threshold of tolerance with stress or all the uncertainty of walking into a situation.

21:45I mean, I hate being out of control. I'm absolutely awful at it. I am not good at letting go. I try and micromanage things. Like I'm so aware of it all, but I think there is an element of, you know, practice does help. And it's certainly what a lot of your training involved with certain environments you were put into that cultivated isolation and stress for you, whether it was in a network of caves, you were in Sardinia for a certain amount of time, also in an underwater aquatic habitat for up to 12 days. I mean, it all sounds like my absolute worst nightmare. but do you think do you think you can you can get better at managing stress is it something you can practice oh you can definitely practice it yes and I think that's what's really I try and encourage young people when I go around talking to schools and colleges and things and and it's about everyone talks about resilience building that resilience but really for me resilience is just pushing yourself out of your comfort zone because if you don't ever put yourself out of your comfort zone you'll never build resilience to anything.

22:47And I think it's embracing that fear of failure, recognizing it and saying, OK, well, I am going to try this. And if I do fail, then I'm going to learn something from it. I'm going to take the positives and then use that to build on for the future to make myself better the next time or more informed and reduce the anxiety of the next time I try to do something like this. So you can definitely get better at it. And I think the more you gradually put yourself in stressful positions, then the more comfortable you become dealing with stress and living with stress. And I think the thing I found is, is, is then, then what's next important, the next most important thing is to get that balance.

23:27Because if you are somebody who then starts to thrive on stress and pressure and an ability to live in that environment, you've got to recognize how to come down from that. Do you know, what is it in your life that gives you the moments to unwind and whether it's meditation, whether it's going for a long distance run, which I happen to love, it's that's what clears my mind and just kind of resets the balance. You know, spending that time with family, you've got to get that balance, because without the balance, then you've just got too much, too much stress in your life. I think, you know, you've really hit the nail on the head in many ways talking there about the fear of failure.

24:06I think that's what holds so many of us back is that, you know, that is one of the ultimate worries, the feeling that we might fail. And actually, in this day and age, there seems to be culturally a lot less tolerance for mistakes, even. I'm not even talking about failure, just making mistakes. Everyone's so quick to point out when things have gone wrong. And if someone does fail, it seems to, you know, certainly make the press's day. But it seems to be something that people then tend to gossip about or have heavy judgments on. And I think we need to really learn to collectively just rework that idea and give ourselves and each other space to just mess up.

24:46Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You're quite right. I think we have become, you know, there's a level, an expectation of perfection and that's not healthy. It's not how we grow up. It's not how we learn. And so I think it's really important with our younger generations, especially that we do encourage that failure, that giving something a go and not worrying about it and learning from those experiences. And it's interesting in the space industry, of course, SpaceX is a company that's done some amazing things over the last five to 10 years. And they've been such a disruptive company because they have embraced that sort of fail fast mentality.

25:26There's Elon Musk there with a rocket on the launch pad, giving it only a 50 % chance of success. You wouldn't find Boeing, for example, in the past, a big major corporation ever saying anything like that. And so it's that also that large scale corporate attitude can sometimes help because it's okay to fail when you're operating in an environment where you've prepared for it, when the risks are right for failure. It's okay to be wrong. We know when you're operating in a safe environment, these kind of things. And then the difference there is learning when's a good time to fail and when's not a good time to fail.

26:03I mean, there are times in, you know, in our career out on the spacewalk for one, you know, that's not the time to fail. That's the time where you do have to be right 100 % of the time. You can't afford to make a mistake, but you make your mistakes before then. Yeah, yeah. That prep time is where you're happily making mistakes and you're preparing for that moment of, I guess it does have to be perfect in that moment. There is no margin for error. I'm really interested in the sort of notion of stepping outside of your comfort zone. It's something that I definitely do regularly. I wouldn't say I walk into any of these podcasts feeling totally relaxed and like, it's going to be a breeze.

26:41You know, every time I have one of these conversations, I want it to go well. I want to feel like I've gotten something from it. I want the guests to feel relaxed. I want the audience to then like it. I do feel like there's sort of risk involved for me personally. I don't want to make a fool of myself, like all these other sort of psychological ideas that are going around my head. So I think I'm pretty good at pushing myself out of my comfort zone, but I'm never sure, I guess, what the sweet spot is. Because what I don't want to do is ever push myself out of my comfort zone into distress or a feeling of sort of utter discomfort.

27:18And I'm sure, again your threshold is pretty high considering what you've endured in training and also going to space just mentally how much you have to push yourself out of your comfort zone do have you recognized what that sweet spot is for you um yeah I well I think you're absolutely right it's really interesting in terms of what we're comfortable with and when we're comfortable to push ourselves and I've always I'm kind of I like doing that initially when I'm by myself I don't like failing in front of people. And, you know, I grew up quite a shy individual. And I guess I gained my strengths and I gained my self confidence by doing stuff by myself.

27:57I would, as a young teenager, I'd take myself off on long hikes, go, you know, rock climbing, I'd go long distance running. And, and that's where I kind of got it, I pushed my boundaries, I really physically push myself and mentally push myself to do things that I was not comfortable with. But I did it, it was very private really I did it myself it was and then as I got more confident in my own abilities I was then more comfortable to you know try and to perform in a more public environment because I was more comfortable with what I could do and I knew I could do it myself and so I think everybody has their their own levels of when they're prepared to push themselves out of their comfort zone and when they're not prepared I mean for me the prospect of perhaps say going on Strictly Come Dancing would be absolutely terrifying.

28:45Because, you know, I can't dance to save a life. And that's a very, very public setting. I love that that's more scary than going to space. Oh, absolutely. No, send me to space any day. But ask me to dance in front of millions of people. No way. But then I think if you really wanted to look that seriously, you'd then go and take lessons and you'll gain your skills and abilities and build up your own confidence in what you're doing and that kind of thing. that's what most of us would do. We would prepare for it in that way. But there is something about failing in a public environment, a public setting that is quite terrifying for many people.

29:20Yeah, it's the pits. I mean, it's why I think I sort of tread carefully in this industry, because there's someone always ready to point out that you've got something wrong, or you've failed in some way, shape or form. And it's why I want to get more comfy, I guess, with making mistakes personally. I think it's really essential. This is Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad. O-Pill is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. Let's be real, getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin. In fact, about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control.

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32:19Since coming back down to Earth after your space mission in 2015, obviously that is the ultimate way to push yourself out of your comfort zone. physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, you had a family at this point. So you're literally pushing every boundary possible. How have you found it now sort of integrating back into, I know you don't have necessarily just a regular life since coming back. You've got all sorts of incredibly interesting things going on, but do you sort of aim to push those boundaries that far again? Do you feel like you can't quite because that was the ultimate? I think that you always always take the experiences you've had through life and you build on them.

33:00That's what I've seen it. Some of the things I did as a test pilot, I know I'll never have the opportunity to do again, but some of those were the most amazing years of my life, pushing an aircraft to its absolute limit and sometimes a little bit beyond. But I always take that experience and build on it. And that's a bit like space flight. I'll take that experience and I'll build on it. So I think that's how I use that and integrating back into everyday life it is a challenge and that first kind of six months when you come back from space there's definitely a physical toll you have to rebuild your body your muscles your bone density there's a mental toll because you're exhausted and you're still having to go through all the scientific debriefs and you're integrating back with the family again and and so there are all these different stresses and pressures going on But of course, we are helped and supported by the space agencies who are there to support us through that.

33:55But for me, family has always been the bedrock. You know, it's been my that's what grounds me. It gives me that sense of normality. And also, I love being a father. I love being a husband and I love family life. So whilst I've spent a huge amount of time traveling and away from family, I always make sure that I try and compensate and get the balance right when I come back. So coming back from space, it was the family really going back into the family environment that helped me through that period. Yeah. And of course, you know, you talk there about the sort of scientific testing around how you've physically coped.

34:30And obviously you had that prior going into space. And I loved reading about the testing going right back to the 60s to where we're at today. The amount of physical testing, psychological testing that you have to go through some extraordinary procedures to ensure that you're you're ready for space. so that at times you felt like the tests were themselves a test just to see if you could endure the amount of things you had to go through. But the most surprising one for me, which I don't know why it was so surprising because it seems relatively obvious now, but one of the key specifications that you really need to be an astronaut or cosmonaut is to be able to rub along with people well.

35:09And it seems obvious, but I was like, wow, it does come down to the basics. And it's probably like most jobs. you need to be able to get on with other humans. Yeah, absolutely. It's the soft skills. And they're so important in life for everybody. And when you've gone through all the technical skills that people have evaluated, your academic performance and your ability to concentrate and your memory retention and spatial awareness and all these kind of things, you're still left with an awful lot of people who can do the job of an astronaut. And then in the interview panels, I remember speaking to Jean-Francois, a French East astronaut.

35:47And he interviewed me and kind of had the casting vote as to whether I was going to go through or not. And I spoke to him later and said, how do you make that decision? And he said, well, you just sit there and decide whether you'd like to spend six months living in a tin can with this person. And if you're OK with that, then they go through. If you're not, then they don't. Yeah, it must be awful if you were to be stuck for six months on the International space station with someone dreadful yes yeah I mean it's really not an environment to be clashing personalities and uh yeah you've got a good be a good team player you've got to you know do all the basics and just have respect for people's space and and have good personal hygiene and um you know be a good uh you know a helper and is one of these people who just is is very I guess altruistic you know not self-centered and prepared to have an element of selflessness when it comes to at the end of a very, very long, busy day and you see your crew member has still got two hours of work left, you know, do you retreat to your crew quarter and have a cup of tea or do you just pile in and get the job done?

36:50And that's what we all do. And I think it's really important to kind of select those people. But when, again, talking to young people, I think, well, that's why some of the extracurricular activities that we do when we're young, whether it's guides or scouts or brownies or Duke of Edinburgh Awards or cadets, or all these kind of things that help you to develop those social skills. They're so important. So important. And they're so underestimated. I think there's still far too much focus on are you doing well or are you doing badly at school in all subjects? And the pressure seems immense. Whereas, I mean, I know obviously there are many jobs where you do need absolute accuracy in certain subjects and you do need to follow them through to a very high level.

37:37But at the end of the day, everyone wants to work with people that are just good eggs, that are decent. And we're sort of not putting much priority in schools on that, I don't suppose. No, I think you're right. I mean, obviously, school, you know, is there to give us an academic grounding. And you said that's that's important and is obviously going to help you go out into the workplace and get a decent job. But but you can't do that at the expense of not having that sort of social integration. when I when I tell kids what do you think I got for my A levels and they say oh you're probably an A star student I'm sure I said well do you know I got a C a D and an E my wife my wife always tells me the E didn't count I said yes it counts and it counts and E's still a pass but they're amazed these kids like you you got a C a D and an E and you became an astronaut I said well yes I said it's not I'm not advising that's the route to go down it was it was really really hard work and it could have been a lot easier if I'd done better at school, but I didn't do better at school.

38:36And so I went down the hard route, but it just goes to show you can still do it. And for me, I mean, I was a cadet at school and I absolutely loved that. And I owe so much to the cadets because it did give me a huge grounding with all of those social and those soft skills that are really important. I think it's such an important message to hear because every year around A-level and GCSE results time, I sort of, you know, I've got older stepchildren, so I've been through it with them already. But you do feel that angst that, oh, my gosh, the pressure and the social pressure from all of their friends are getting.

39:10And then the pressure from could be parents or the school. And as you've just demonstrated, you know, you sort of scraped by with your A-levels, but you've gone on to do something utterly extraordinary, incredibly niche. You know what also has just sort of jumped into my head? this strange notion that when we're really little, I know that you do talks in schools to all ages, but when we're really little, we do get sort of actively encouraged to dream big. So, you know, what do you want to be when you get older? And often it will be something extraordinary like astronaut, footballer, doctor, scientist, something that sounds, you know, super impressive and we dream big.

39:50And then I don't know what the age is. I remember maybe being about 13, 14 and having one of those awful careers advice chats and saying, oh, I really want to, at the time I wanted to be a dancer because I studied dance as a kid. And I was sort of categorically told that's a ridiculous idea. Please think of something more sensible. And that big dreaming is really knocked out of us. But you, again, are demonstrating, you know, you didn't do well in your A-levels, but you've gone on to do one of those big dreaming jobs. I think we need to really allow kids to keep that level of big thinking throughout those delicate teen years, surely.

40:30Yeah, we do. And I think it's really important that people don't close doors on themselves, you know, keep as many opportunities open. And even if it's something that's going to take a long time to achieve, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have an aspiration to try and achieve it. I mean, for me, my passion was flying and I was thankfully able to go down that route. And the astronaut job didn't come to the age of 37. But it's something that we're all allowed to have these dreams, young and old as well. I think people should never stop dreaming. I totally agree. I've always kind of worked on a two-year basis as well.

41:08I think it's great to have big dreams and it's also okay to have small dreams as well. And I think that for me, the two year kind of vision has really helped me because that's something that can sometimes feel more achievable. So you might have a big dream. Say, OK, not quite sure how I'm going to get there, but I know how I'm going to get to this point in two years time. And then from there, I've got an idea how I might be able to use that to get to a different point and a different point. And so not necessarily worrying too much about, you know, about the destination, but really enjoying the journey.

41:42And I think that's the lesson I try and give is just, you know, enjoy the journey because your destination might change. You might find somewhere else to go, you know, or you might end up at the destination you always wanted to. But, you know, none of that actually matters. What matters is what was the journey like? Did you have a great time? Did you enjoy it? Being flexible, so vital, isn't it? And again, your story illustrates that perfectly, because as you say, this came down the line for you. You were so dedicated to your flying and army life. And then, you know, many people know this story, but for those that don't, extraordinarily, your wife saw an ad in a newspaper about this position as an astronaut, which previously for a long time hadn't been available to anyone in the UK.

42:28And that then changed your course entirely. I mean, that's a perfect example of having that ability to be flexible and going down a different tangent unexpectedly. Yeah, I think that all comes back full circle to that willingness to embrace uncertainty because it was a big deal. Rebecca was pregnant with Thomas at the time. I was leaving the army having spent 18 years in military service. and so you know civilian life's quite a scary prospect as it is you know jumping out of a military environment which is sometimes quite sheltered and so we were dealing with all this potential change buying our first house together moving to a different part of the country me getting my first job young baby on the way and then the space agency said hey you know fancy being an astronaut by the way not sure where you're going to live at all and not sure if you're ever going to get a space flight but we can promise you an exciting time and Rebecca and I just kind of looked at each other and said well should we do this and and and Rebecca kind of said we can't not we we will not be able to look ourselves in the mirror in five years time if we turn down this opportunity so at some point you've then got to have that willingness just to embrace the uncertainty and grasp the opportunity yeah pardon my French um but Tim I call that a fuck it moment where you just go, do you know what?

43:54I mean, not that I've had that exact sort of effort moment, but it is one of those moments where you, like your wife said, we can't not, like it's an extraordinary path to walk down. Yeah, yes. Unbelievable. It is. I remember speaking to several people, test pilots, actually friends of mine who said, oh yeah, yeah, that astronaut selection, I remember that when that came out, I thought of going for that. And then I think to myself, yes, but you didn't. you know you've got to if you don't play then you're not going to ever win you've got to just make that leap you've got to make that jump and and it is the the moment yes we all need more of those we really really do because you know being a worrier i get stuck in routine quite easily and i feel very safe in routine and i like it i'm i'm pretty disciplined in my routine so i can get a lot done but that doesn't leave much room for just changing things on the spot or having totally fresh ideas to grab hold of so I again it's something I think about a lot where am I leaving space for those moments of spontaneity or yeah just the unexpected it's really important yes yeah and we've always felt that you know family is the most important people are the most important and And as long as you're surrounded by people you love and, you know, you've got friends and family who can help you.

45:19And I think that having that environment, then the other stuff of, you know, moving around the country, the uncertainty, the unpredictability, where are we going to live? What's life going to be like? All the what if, what if, what ifs? You can ask what ifs, you know, until the cows come home. But at some point, you've just got to kind of say, look, we're all in this together. We're all going to support each other. Let's just go for it. Yeah, I mean, you have to, in your profession, bin the what-ifs altogether, I'm imagining, in every aspect of life. Because certainly on launch day...

46:11right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams.

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47:30Explore Range Rover Sport at rangerover.com slash US slash sport. I mean I can't even imagine how many what-ifs flying through everyone's head on launch day there are so many what-ifs that I'm imagining you just have to bin them and go we can't look at the what-ifs because we're doing it we're on the bus we're going to the shuttle yeah that that's the compartmentalization all the all the what-ifs go in a big box and you just shut it and say right you know we've we've dealt with it we you know we've done everything we possibly can we're now going to space. I think it's a really good tactic. I think for anyone who's got sort of anxious disposition like myself, binning the what ifs is probably a must.

48:11It's something I know I need to work on after this chat. See, I always learn something during these podcasts. That for me, bin the what ifs. I'm going to get it printed on a t-shirt. Something else I really enjoyed learning about, and this was a funnier part of the book as well, was looking at the nutrition because the food back in the day, oh my God, you've got astronauts and cosmonauts eating mushy meat out of a squeezy tube. I mean, it's absolutely horrendous and lots of dehydrated food, etc. Whereas things we can say have vastly improved since then. You had bacon sandwiches, you had Heston Blumenthal creating a space menu for you.

48:51That was a lot of fun. Yeah, we did that as a kids competition. So they had to come up with a menu for an astronaut for a day. And then their prize was to cook it with Heston. But it has come a long way. And I think in the early days, people thought they were perhaps being clever by saying, look, this is just the nutrition you need. This is the vitamins, the minerals, the nutrients. So we can mush it all together in a lightweight package and fly it to space and you can suck it out of tube. Job done. Of course, it tasted disgusting. It had no texture to it whatsoever. and very rapidly morale plummeted and food is just so important.

49:28I don't think we always appreciate how important food is to many many people and you only need to go a couple of weeks with insufficient food or poor quality food to realise everything starts to go downhill. Yeah you're so right you know not only is there I'm imagining as as a astronaut it's integral that your nutrition is great so that your body does stand good stead up in space but also morale you're so right you know eating a meal together or sharing something that tastes delicious is a beautiful way to bond and actually feel a lot better yes yeah and and just simple textures that having that difference that variety in texture as well you know just sucking mush out of a tube gets really really dull after after a short space of time we like to bite into things and chewing things and to be able to have that kind of shared meal.

50:21And in space, it really gives you that connection with home as well. And those connections are very important. Oh, my God, of course. I mean, I've heard you talk before about those essential phone calls and video calls back home. I mean, that is something that is so needed when you're experiencing that extreme isolation that not many people have experienced. That connection to home in any way is a must. Yes, yeah. And we're so lucky today. You know, we got great communications from the space station. I could ring home any day I wanted and once a week had a video call and that was fantastic. And sometimes I was ringing home too often, you know, the better we'll be dealing with the kids.

51:01It was midday in Houston and I was there in the evening and she's like, I'm busy. Can you call another time? Oh, I love that. I'm too busy to talk to you in space. And also you spoke to Brian May. I did, yeah. Yeah, I got a call with him after he played a concert. I think it was in Brussels. And we had a video call and me and all my crew members are huge Queen fans. In fact, Queen was one of the tracks I had, Don't Stop Me Now, before launching into space. So to actually speak with Brian and he was just sat there chilling out in his dressing gown with his guitar. With his clogs on. Yeah, clogs and just playing a bit of music to us.

51:40It was fantastic. That's so brilliant. And of course, man is going back. Well, man and woman are going back to the moon. This is the first time, hopefully, since 1972. Why does that feel so significant? What is the importance of sending humans to the moon? Well, I mean, it feels so significant because so many people don't remember it. You know, there's, you know, whole swathes of generations that have never watched humans walking on the surface of the moon. So for many people, this is the first time they're going to actually get to see that. And in terms of the significance, it's significance because it's not the Apollo moon landings, which were one off.

52:21Each one was a one off mission with a surface stay of a few days and then to return back home again. This is now to start building habitation modules. So this is us actually leaving low Earth orbit and setting up a permanent research base on the south pole of the moon. And from there, we'll grow and learn new things about the moon. And from there, we'll be able to go on to Mars. So it really is the next step of having spent 20 years just on the ISS in low Earth orbit of kind of breaking out and going this step forward. And we just learn so much when we push those boundaries in terms of science and in terms of knowledge.

52:57We learn so much, but it's not learning stuff for the sake of exploring further. It's learning stuff that can be useful back here on Earth. How so? We do so much research on the ISS in terms of pharmaceuticals, learning about new drugs for diseases. We can anything with a 3D structure. You can grow it purely and perfectly in space where you can't do that on Earth. So we can actually print out human organs now in space using bio ink. Phenomenal research that's going on. So potentially we could have, you know, organ manufacturing in low Earth orbit in future years and then just transporting them down to Earth once they're fully produced.

53:35And then they've got that rigidity. They've got the structure they need. And drugs are done, you know, protein crystals, disease causing protein crystals grow in the same way. And the drug has to wrap around this protein crystal like a 3D jigsaw puzzle. So on Earth, we grow very impure crystals. So we have impure drugs. And so we overdose patients with big side effects. Whereas if you bring down a protein crystal grown in space, it's very large. It's very pure. So the drug is incredibly effective. and so you have much much lower dosage for patients much much fewer side effects so again manufacturing the protein crystals in space is is really important things like space-based solar energy clean limitless energy from space is is a reality we just need to get to the the point where we can build it and we're not far away so that's another area and things like communications and navigation and telecoms all these things are benefits we get from space and climate change data But, you know, the space industry is constantly pushing boundaries and we're benefiting from that research.

54:39Yeah. And it's also, as you can see from the research in your book, becoming a much more inclusive endeavour. You know, it was restricted purely to men and there were certain regions of the planet that weren't sort of accounted for. But also women were totally not allowed. But we're seeing a much richer and diverse group of people going into these missions now. And that's so exciting. We are. It is exciting. It's so important as well. I mean, we've learned over the years that diversity is far more important when you're putting together teams of people working in complex environments. And the selection process over the years, we've had a few selection processes which have been 50-50 in terms of gender diversity, which has been fantastic.

55:24And as you mentioned, it's now open to much greater areas of society. we need people with skills in medicine, skills in computer programming, all sorts of different variety of skills, geological skills to come and join the effort. So it's not just about fast jet test pilots becoming astronauts. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I think it's so wonderful. I'm at the moment researching another podcast at the moment, which is about women's football. And again, it goes back to that really necessary message that people need to see themselves out there doing these jobs to believe that they could do it too.

56:03And I think we are entering a new era where, you know, we're seeing women play football at a very, very high level. We're seeing women and people of colour go into space. It's so, so essential for young kids to see this, to believe that they can dream that big as well. It really is. Yeah, really important. And thankfully, you know, over the years, that's become, you know, something that space exploration has become much better at. I remember when Christina and Jessica, two of my NASA colleagues, went out on their spacewalk together and being in a school at the time and as the spacewalk was happening.

56:36And those young girls in the audience and they're looking there with eyes thinking, wow, you could just see themselves out there on a spacewalk. You think, yes, that's, you know, like you just said there, if you see it, you can believe it. Yeah, too right. Oh, it's brilliant. Well, I absolutely love the book. It's just so interesting and in depth. And I learned so, so much. And there's some fantastic stories in there, some beautiful photographs as well. And it's been a total privilege to talk to you so in depth today, Tim. Thank you so much. Thank you, Fern. It's been brilliant talking to you too.

57:08Oh, Tim, thank you so much. It was a total honour to pick your brains. It's so cool thinking that my little old coping mechanism that I use in tricky times of zooming out and getting a bit of perspective is something you've actually done too. I'm chuffed. Space, the human story is out now. And I'd so recommend you read it because we could really only begin to scratch the surface of Tim's incredible stories today in our short chat. And if you're after other book recommendations, I'd love for you to come and join us on Instagram. at happyplacebookclub is where you'll find us for good books. All right, back next week with someone who's made such impressive change and had incredible success recently.

57:53Until then, massive thanks again to Tim, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you. I love you to the moon and back.

58:24so

58:30hi this is nox from the popcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

59:01Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

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