Mary Berry: "I didn't want to leave the house!" How gardening helped me through grief

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fearne Cotton. This is the show that learns from other people's life experiences. Today, I'm chatting to Mary Berry. When we were young, it was wartime. My father really didn't want to garden, but it was part of Dig for Britain. So immediately our back garden was full of root vegetables, raspberries, strawberries. We liked picking those. But mum said if everybody gave up sugar in their tea, in those days, not many people had coffee. Everybody had sugar in their tea. If you gave up sugar in your tea, there would be some left to make a cake. and everybody did in the household give up sugar.

0:45Fearne Cotton: Guys, how do I find you today? I've had one hell of a week. I am. You don't only feel like you're slightly going mad because you've just done too many things. There's been a lot of like after school activities, like millions of podcasts and talks, which obviously I love doing. Parents evening. It's like one of those weeks where there's no time for the gear change. It's like one minute I'm podcasting and then I'm talking to a science teacher about my kids' grades and I feel slightly mad, which probably means I need to pause at some point, like I'm sure many of you do. And maybe this episode is exactly that for you, like you time.

1:27Fearne Cotton: I highly encourage it for you and me. I never give myself enough me time. So I'm wholeheartedly giving you listeners permission right now to not multi-skill while you're listening to this, if possible. If you can just like lay down on the sofa or in bed, even in the bath, listen to me in the bath. Oh my God, the best. Look, if you are cracking on with doing a job or you're out on a walk, whatever, enjoy. But let's just all try and give ourselves a bit of a pause because life is wacky. It's too much. It's so full on. Now, look, I was really excited about today's talk for lots of reasons. Mary Berry has been on the podcast before.

2:11Fearne Cotton: It was right at the start, like eight years ago. I got to go to Mary's beautiful house, which was sort of surreal in itself. I remember very clearly that she gave me a little plate of biscuits whilst we were doing the podcast and I was too nervous to eat them. And also I thought the crunching sound would be maybe not so fun for you guys. But Mary ate biscuits throughout that first chat. Sadly, I did not repay the favour and bring any baked goods for this conversation today, but what a treat. And it's a treat for many reasons. There's something so important about interviewing older people. And I don't want to say that with like any connotations other than it's someone that's got a lot of years behind them with a wealth of experience and a ton of wisdom.

2:58Fearne Cotton: And I didn't want to waste the opportunity to ask Mary some pretty big questions about being in your 90s, about looking back at nearly a century of life. What an astonishing, astonishing thing. I feel very, very lucky I got to do this. Now, obviously, we all know Mary for the endless joy that she finds in cooking and baking. But her latest book is called My Gardening Life. Gardening has been a huge part of her family's day to day life since she was a child. And talking to Mary, there's clearly a lot of crossover between gardening and cooking. There's a lot of inspiration that comes from helping her father with the vegetable patch and knowing how the food that she's cooking was grown is clearly important to her.

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4:14Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:37Fearne Cotton: Mary Berry, I am so happy to see you in real life. It's so great to have you here. It's good to be here, Fern. First of all, I must congratulate you for your BAFTA Fellowship, which you just picked up this weekend. What a moment. Yes. You know, when I was told about it, I thought, well, it goes to actors, actresses. And I looked at the list of people who'd received it in the past. I thought, I'm a cook and a gardener. And I felt so honored, you know. And Lucy is my assistant and she's been with me 36 years. And she said, it's so important. And she kept saying, it's such an honor. I said, it is such an honor.

5:23I can't really believe it.

5:26Fearne Cotton: It's just amazing. It's so brilliant. And you had that gorgeous pink dress on walking the red carpet. You looked so beautiful. But it is such a huge honour and such a moment. When you look back at your time on TV, your career on television, that is so loved by all generations, how do you feel looking back at it all? Well, I feel it's an accolade, you know, and I suppose a thank you. Yes, you know, the one thing that does cross your mind and you think, you wish your mother and father, mum and dad were here. I know they're looking down, but the first thing you would normally do is pick up the phone.

6:09Mum, do you, you know, and, you know, my husband was very pleased and the children, I think they were too.

6:18Fearne Cotton: Oh, I'm sure they were. Everyone was so proud, I'm sure. And what's even kind of more extraordinary, it wasn't like you grew up thinking, I want to be on the TV. This is the career for me. It was something that kind of organically just happened. Well, I enjoy sharing what I love, which is cooking. That was my career because, I mean, I didn't do Latin and math and like to be outside and love break and friends and anything to do with sport. and so I wouldn't have been able to be a doctor or anything but I do like teaching and teaching is immensely rewarding. And of course eventually it was television and television is the biggest audience that you could get and if one makes it very clear and does it sort of step by step and make it enjoyable, people copy you and they are then proud and present it to their family and friends and they feel good about it.

7:25And, you know, sometimes in a family you have children who are very clever at school and win everything and there's sometimes children that haven't had that and then suddenly they start to bake and I'm teaching them and they become so pleased. And sometimes in the mornings when I put the computer on, I will see a little boy maybe with a cake that's a little bit lopsided, but hand decorated by this child. And in the background, parents very, very proud. And the child may not have achieved great things academically, but enjoyed producing something that everyone's going to enjoy, family and friends.

8:12Fearne Cotton: I mean, I've always loved baking cakes for that exact reason that you've got something to show for the effort at the end that you can be proud of and also something everyone else can enjoy and then give you praise for and say that was delicious. And again, with gardening, it's something that you can enjoy. As long as you dress for it, you can do it all the way out of this. And it's rewarding. I mean, in cooking, you can make something for supper, buy the ingredients, follow a good recipe and have something in the evening that's delicious. Now, gardening takes a bit more time, a bit more patience, but it's a format.

8:53You know, you've got to set to plant the seeds or get the plants and so on. They've all got to be looked after. It's something that takes more time. Yes. But of course, you are out in all weathers. And, you know, do you really need to go to the gym? By the time you've hoed a flower bed and so on or pushed a lawnmower or so on, that's a great way of exercising. and in the fresh air you feel so good.

9:24Fearne Cotton: You feel so good. I mean, you are now 91? 91. 91. And fit as a fiddle. So if anyone was going to push gardening on us for exercise, you can absolutely do that. Yes, and also it's the fact of clearing your head. Yeah. And I'll come back from seeing you and then I'll very likely shout at the dogs and say, let's go out. and I'll go and perhaps pick an odd flower or see what needs to be done. And you feel in a different world. And if it was pouring with rain, I would dress for it. Stick a mack on, umbrella, get out there. I love that. As I said before we started the podcast today, I've not moved into my gardening era yet, but I can see it on the horizon.

10:11Fearne Cotton: I know it's going to happen. I absolutely understand the benefits of it. I love going for a walk in the park and just being outside. in nature and I know that if I've got lots of worries or thoughts in my head that's a really good way of me just having that clarity that headspace it's so lovely the last time you came on this podcast was in 2019 unbelievably I felt like it was about two years ago but it was seven which is mind-blowing your arithmetic's very good to quickly do the maths but I came to your house but I think you've moved from that house since. It was the one that had the big pond in the back garden.

10:51There's no pond now. No. No, that was a big garden, took a lot of time. And we moved. The children said, well, my husband actually said to me, when we were on holiday together, and he said, if I put my clogs before you, would you stay here in the house in Penn? And I said, no, I certainly wouldn't. and he said where would you like to go and I said well I suppose we should be near the children possibly Henley and he said well perhaps when we get home we should look. Meanwhile I phoned Annabel, our daughter and said Dad says he's not going out feet first in Penn he would like to possibly move to somewhere like Marlow or Henley oh she said that's near me and near Tom that's I'll find something by the time we got home she had found that house but it took ages to sort all out but it was lovely to think that the young wanted to be near and they do pop in

12:00Fearne Cotton: oh that's so nice and you've got another gorgeous back garden to be looking after it's not as big but it's so manageable But again, it was a learning process because we didn't want a lot of work. And yet we wanted, you know, I wanted flowers to pick. And I did raised beds. And most raised beds are sort of, you know, foot off the floor, off the ground. These are at sitting height made of brick. So in my dotage in the years that follow, I'll be sitting on the wall, pulling up my carrots or weaving. Yes. And without any effort. That's so brilliant. I mean, there's some beautiful pictures of all of your gardens, actually, in this book, My Gardening Life, which I loved reading because it's a real education for me, for someone that hasn't started gardening yet.

12:54Fearne Cotton: And I loved hearing a lot of the stories behind your gardens, but also what gardening has given you over the years. And also looking at how it evokes a lot of memories for you. You talk about primrose being a real evocative flower for you. Why is that? Well, when we were young and growing up, it was wartime. And there weren't such things as, there were parks if you wanted to go to, but there weren't theme parks or places that you could, sports centres or outings. We just stayed at home and had fun. And we had dens and we built fires. We used to cook outside. We put tents. We had friends around.

13:39You didn't call it a sleepover. They came with a sleeping bag and went on the floor. But, you know, nowadays, children are much more entertained every day. We entertained ourselves. But we made things and we used to go in dad's workshop and make things and mend things. It was different. Yeah, yeah. But it's all memories. And talking of primroses, there were sort of outings in the seasons. In spring, mum would make a picnic, basic picnic, and take something called a primus, which was a little stove, which needed a lot of attention to get it going. And you had to put it on a level bit of ground, and mum would have a kettle and make tea.

14:27And then we'd have our picnic. We'd pick primroses and tie them up with wool into little bunches and give them to friends. I used to take them to my teachers at school because that would sweeten them up because I wouldn't have worked very hard.

14:45Fearne Cotton: I love it. Thinking about that era of your life during the war, One of my big regrets is not asking my nan Sylvia would be, I think about your age now. She died many years ago, but she had my mum as a teenager. So she was a young granny for me to have. And I loved being in her company. And I heard little bits from her childhood. She was evacuated to Wales in the war. She didn't have a great time. Really? Yeah, it was really rough. the family that looked after her, well, I think it was one woman maybe that looked after her, would beat her and she was quite traumatised from it. And then she came back from the war.

15:26Fearne Cotton: And I think it was not long after that, her older sister died of TB, which was, of course, kind of rife in that era. So I knew little tiny tidbits, but I wish I'd sat with her and just quizzed her more about what that era was like, what her memories were like and how it felt as a young person knowing that something so huge was going on around you. What are your memories from that time? Well, I was not evacuated because we were in the country in Bath. And I can remember that Bath had a blitz for two days. And I remember all our windows being knocked out. Whoa. And I remember the blackouts. And my school was bombed, which I thought was about the best thing that could possibly have happened.

16:17But only the next week, the headmistress came to my parents and said, when the windows had been put back in, could a couple of classes come and have it in our house? And again, I thought, whoopee, I'll fall out of bed straight into class. But of course, my classes weren't in our house. They were about half a mile away, which we had to walk to, which was not very thoughtful of the headmistress.

16:46Fearne Cotton: And do you remember a sense of what was going on as a child living through it? Was there fear or what were your kind of feelings around it? I don't think there was fear. I knew there was anxiety with my parents. And I can remember the eight o 'clock news every morning. And my parents would sit at breakfast and we had to be quiet while they listened to what was happening. because there was no television. And so they would listen intently. And it was very solemn, correct voices. And just before the news came on, a doctor came on for five minutes talking about health and things. It was just in the back of your mind.

17:27But we had to be quiet then.

17:29Fearne Cotton: Yeah, no, I'm sure. And around this time, you became as a family pretty self-sufficient in terms of growing your own vegetables. that was very much a part of how you would kind of get through it with the rations going on. Well, Fern, you're quite right. But my father really didn't want to garden, but it was part of Dig for Britain. And so immediately our back garden was full of root vegetables, raspberries, strawberries. We like picking those. And celery. He grew celery and I remember to keep the celery white, he used to wrap each of the celeries in newspaper and then banked it up with earth like people do with potatoes now.

18:14And then because the celery didn't get any light, it stayed white. And he grew sweet peas for mum. I did a little bit of gardening because I was always in his wake and he helped me. But sort of radishes and things like that.

18:32Fearne Cotton: And then would you cook together as a family or was that very much your mum would be gathering the veg? Mum would do all the cooking. But Dan, we had one of the first washing machines. It was Parnell, I can remember. And he also bought a canning machine to can fruit. Wow. And he liked that sort of thing, but he didn't actually cook. We just had a gas cooker and oven and a big kitchen, huge table. But we always sat around the table for meals. And that was the time that you begin to talk. Yeah, I mean, that's still my favourite thing now is when my kids are back from school. I'm back from work. We can sit together.

19:17Fearne Cotton: It's usually the only moment, especially with my son who's 13, that I can actually get anything out of him and talk about the day. Always on a full stomach. Yes. If you want anything from them or from any member of the family, feed them. Yes. And when they're feeling, oh, that was good, then you can get an answer that you want. Without a doubt. And what would your mum be cooking around that time from the garden? Mum would be, well, it was very repetitive each week, really. You'd have a roast on Sunday and dad would carve it. But I mean, you had a small portion because the next day it would be a cottage pie or some form of mince.

20:00And the mincer was in the kitchen and it was a hand one and mum would put the meat through it. It might be Monday, might be cold lamb and then it would be a shepherd's pie. And then we would have fish because fish wasn't rationed. Oh, right. it. And mum said if everybody gave up sugar in their tea, in those days, not many people had coffee. Everybody had sugar in their tea. If you gave up sugar in your tea, there would be some left to make a cake every two weeks or have some puddings. And everybody did in the household give up sugar. Wow. I mean, there was no waste. Everything was used. Oh, no waste.

20:43And of course, We had chickens and in the winter, mum would preserve the eggs in Isinglass in a great big sort of tub, metal tub, and put the eggs in and that seals the outsides of them so the air doesn't get at them. And she would use those during the winter when the hens weren't laying.

21:04Fearne Cotton: Wow. I mean, you had to be unbelievably resourceful. It was a time where every bit of every veg had to be used, every bit of meat, no waste. The veg peelings would be boiled up and put with bran to feed the hens. Oh, wow. I mean, we're so far removed from that, mostly in this country these days. There's so much waste. It makes me feel anxious. I can't bear it. And there was no dog food. You didn't buy dog food in tins or, you know, dogs were fed on scraps. But we all love dogs and they got good scraps. I bet they did. But, you know, it was a different world. Yeah, completely. And then not so long after the war, or maybe it was just as the war was ending, you contracted polio as a child.

21:50When I was 13, yes. And I just, I knew I was ill, but because I didn't feel very well. And I thought we had in the house, we had fireplaces in the bedrooms and mine had never been lit. and mum and dad lit the fire in the bedroom, which was a huge treat. But I just thought I'd got flu or something. And when Dr. Love, our family doctor, nice name, isn't he? Lovely name. Dr. Love came and he said, I think Mary has got infantile paralysis and she must go to hospital at once. And that's another name for polio. Wow and you were in hospital for quite some time I was I was but I was very well looked after but you were talking earlier on about TB and after being in the isolation hospital I went to Bath Orthopaedic Hospital and one side of the ward was open with glass because TB people had to have fresh air and you had your toothbrush put in a mug of water ready for the morning and I can remember the water that my toothbrush stood in froze and you can imagine it was quite cold.

23:12Fearne Cotton: Oh my God. I've been cold ever since. Mary, that is the pit, especially when you're not feeling well. Well, no, I got better then. But at that stage, I was feeling better and had lots of exercises and got back to walking again. Oh, thank goodness. and so obviously gardening was kind of part of your family language whether your parents wanted to or not it was very much part of family life and how you were looking after yourselves when did you start to garden more so for fun when it became something about aesthetics and flowers looking beautiful and and making a garden really feel like something well all my childhood mum always had a bunch of flowers on the kitchen table.

23:59And I can remember the very South Lawn was the house. And I can remember the individual flocks and dahlias. I could remember, even though I was then in my early teens, I could remember the plant names, not the Latin names, but I was interested in plants and flowers. And I suppose when I got married, we lived first in London, in near Notting Hill Gate, behind, before your time, there was a classic cinema, behind the classic cinema, and next door to a fish and chip restaurant, Jill's, and our house touched it, and it was cheap. And my father, who was a surveyor, came up, and he said, well, people aren't buying that house because it's next door to a fish and chip restaurant.

24:51But he said he was there when they were frying in the evening and so on and the smells of the fish was going about eight houses down the street he said your house you won't get any smell at all oh wow so we bought it I love and the garden was very small and in total shade I desperately was putting plants in and they mostly died no but then I had more success later on I mean I love having fresh

25:22Fearne Cotton: flowers in the house yesterday my next door neighbor had picked up a package for me and she popped over and she'd picked these five gigantic peach colored roses from her garden and they smell like nothing else they they're in my kitchen in the vase now and this morning before I left I was giving them a big old sniff and they're just but the color it's like the the softest peach tone ever. It's such a treat having fresh flowers. It is. And obviously because you are in the heart of London, they're already in flower. Yes. I mean, my favourite rose is Chandos Beauty, which we have had in all our gardens.

26:05And it's British grown, Harkness, and it has wonderful foliage, wonderful smell. And it's sort of a sort of white with a bit of pink. and it's good for picking and, of course, repeat flowering. Repeat flowering in a rose is, I think, important. So you get two lots. And how do you guarantee that? Is that about pruning the roses? No, it's about the variety. Right. So when you buy your rose, it will say if it's repeat flowering or whether it's not. Do you get two goes of it? What happens is it comes in usually starting in June and then it'll have a flurry till the end of perhaps July. And you deadhead it, deadheading so important in gardening and cut it down a bit, feed it, water it, it'll come again.

27:01And you should get flowers from a good rose, you know, right up to the frost.

27:06Fearne Cotton: And are you out in the garden every day? Is that just part of your routine? My routine is when I get up in the morning is to go out with the dogs. And so I am. And every time I walk in, the back door is open. And I might pick up the post and go and sit in the garden, open the post or whatever, if you get any. But it's part of my life. It feels so much better. You do. Is that still something you would rely on if you're mentally trying to, you know, mould something over or you've got worries, concerns? Is that a go-to for you to clear your head? Absolutely, but don't you feel the same? 100%. 100%.

27:48Fearne Cotton: It's just not necessarily with the gardening, but just getting, I have to get outdoors. I have to be outside. Yes, it is so important. Yeah. And I'm very fussy where I buy my flies, you know. If you go to a local nursery, a good one that perhaps grows their own plants, you know that you're in a similar soil to what you've got, which is, I think, a great help. Yes. I was reading all about soil in your book. That was all a new lingo to me. I didn't know anything about it. Well, time will come. Start with pots. Yes. And pots are lovely because if by any chance they die, you can replace them. Yeah, exactly.

28:30They just bring a smile as people walk out and perhaps you're having a drink outside. And even a window box is cheerful, isn't it?

28:38Fearne Cotton: Well, I'm so lucky. In my garden, I've got a magnolia tree that's pretty substantial. It's been there for years, way longer than I've lived there. And then next to that, I've got a wall of wisteria, which has sadly already dropped. But it looked so pretty. Big purple hanging wisteria. But most likely it'll flower again later in the season. Oh, I didn't know that. Usually, yes, if you're lucky, you get a bit of a second. That's so good. But it's got a smell too. It's beautiful. It's heavenly. I love it. Of course, down the line, you started using your garden and the vegetables you were cooking to then run aga classes at your house, which seems like a lovely marriage of your two deep passions of cooking and gardening.

29:22Fearne Cotton: And you would have many people sign up to this course, come to your home. You would all cook together. What was that experience like for you? It was when we lost William, our son. I didn't really want to go to London to work again. I wanted to stay with my husband. And I thought, what can I do from home? So I ran a cook. I had an agar for most of our married life. And I thought, well, I do know more about agars than most people. And it's a different technique to cook with an agar. So we started these agar classes and Lucy Young came. and we did it together. I used to do the morning demonstrations.

29:59She did the afternoon. We had it for 12 years and I did every single session. I didn't ever get anybody else in. They'd come to see me cook and I would be there. I wouldn't actually remember their names. I used to put the sticker. Lucy used to be by the door and put a sticking label saying Jane Brown. So when they eventually came through to coffee to me, I would say, good morning, Jane. and she would think, oh, she's remembered my name. It was just because she had a label. That's so great. Because I'm not very good at remembering names.

30:32Fearne Cotton: No, I'm not. I'm very good with faces. I never forget a face. I actually had one of your aga cookbooks because when I was about 24, I bought this teeny, teeny little cottage and it came with an aga. And I'd never even seen one. I was 24. I barely cooked. But I loved baking. I've always loved baking. I used to bake with my nan. So I had this aga and I was like, I don't know what to do with this thing because obviously they're set at certain temperatures and I was clueless. So I got your AGA cookbook and I absolutely nailed baking in an AGA from your book. It's different. It is different, but you can get some beautiful results.

31:11Fearne Cotton: So around this time, you've got this nice community of people that are coming to your house. Was that in some way healing with the grief that you were feeling to have that distraction? It kept me busy. Kept you busy. Kept me busy. And I had my husband and other children about me. So, yeah, it's time. And I think the one thing we've all told ourselves how lucky we were to have had William and what a wonderful life he'd given us. And, you know, I mean, it's many years now. It's 30 years since he died. I mean, every Christmas we're still saying, you know, having a drink to Will and our grandchildren all say he was a very good at sport.

31:57And I know Hobie was saying when he was doing so well at rugby, William would have been proud of me, wouldn't he? You know, it's really nice. And there are pictures all of him around. And even though the grandchildren didn't know him, they know all about him.

32:13Fearne Cotton: Yeah, that's so lovely. But some people don't want to do that. They want to forget it and have a new life. But he is still part of our lives. There's no rule book when it comes to grief. There's no rule with grief at all. You have to do it on your own way. And I now, when friends, many of my friends at my age are losing the other half, and I always talk about them or find something nice to say. And I think people like that. I know I did. I loved it if people came up and said, oh, Will was such a smashing chap. Wasn't he a good tennis player or whatever? And, you know, I'm proud. And I think if there is a sadness in the family to find something nice to say about them or something we remember about them, it helps people pass the time.

33:09Fearne Cotton: You say in the book that around this time, one of your friends, one of your neighbours invited you to the Chelsea Flower Show. And you weren't particularly keen at this point on leaving the house, being around other people. But you actually managed to push through and you went and you've got no regrets. I had no regrets and she asked me, Will died in January, she asked me in January, I've just got two tickets or whatever, and I thought, oh, thank you very much, Claire, thank you very much. And then, of course, as it got nearer, I was feeling a bit more out thinking and I went and bought a new jacket.

33:49And, of course, it really started me off realizing that we have to go on. and of course Chelsea is something that is such a good day out.

34:00Fearne Cotton: Do you still love going? Oh yes, I'm there for a couple of days this year. So good. I've only been once but I loved it. It's just a feast of colour and creativity. It's so beautiful. A lot of ideas that you can copy and when you see the height of certain plants you remember that which are the ones to put at the front of the border and which are the ones to put at the back. And that's what I've learned in my gardening life. To begin with, I would just go to the nursery, get a plant and not bother to read how tall it got. And also, because we have quite a big bed, a gardening bed, I always buy three.

34:47You know, one looks a bit lost and a group always looks better in threes or fives or whatever. Depends what it is.

34:55Fearne Cotton: I've dogeared a page in your book here, Mary, because it says on page 114, I'm addicted to ferns. Oh, sweet.

35:10Fearne Cotton: What is it about ferns that you love? I mean, there are loads of ferns. People don't realise this. There's so many varieties. What do you love about ferns? I really love ferns because they like shade. Yes. They like shade. They like damp. So if you've got a wet part of the garden, they don't need too much looking after. I cram them in there and we do water them. Yes. I remember going to Highgrove years ago. The king, he was Prince Charles's garden, and they had a lot of ferns there and it was very damp around them. They really do, to start with, the first few years, they need to be damp. Once they're fully rooted, they can manage without so much water.

35:53But I know that the more I water mine, because they're only two or three years old, the better they are.

36:00Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I relate. I drink a lot of water and I'm low maintenance. I do not drink a lot of water. I know, I remember this about you. When we did that TV show together, we made a roulade. I think I was grabbing a glass of water and I think you told me you don't drink it. No, but my mother was 105. Which is mad. Mad. and she had water at lunch and water with supper and nothing else. And I don't drink a lot of water. Mind you, I don't race about an awful lot. You're at a fast pace and running and things like that. But I don't drink an awful lot. But you must do what your doctor says and what you're advised.

36:46Don't listen to me. But you can listen to me about gardening but not about how much water.

36:51Fearne Cotton: I mean, my parents don't ever drink it. They drink about 20 cups of tea a day, but no water. They can't stand it. They don't like the nothingy taste of it. Well, it's liquid, isn't it? You've just got to chug it down and get on with it.

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37:41Fearne Cotton: Let's talk about your mum being 105 is something we can't breeze over because that is a substantial number we're talking here. You're 91. Your mum was 105. You've obviously got something and your dad lived into his, was it late 80s? Yes, early 80s actually. Early 80s. I think genes are very important. Yes. And if you've got your health, which thank God I have, and I do the things that I should do and I eat sensibly, I'm very fortunate. But in the back of it, it's your genes. Do you think there's something to be said for having a passion? I often think when, like look at David Attenborough, who's just turned 100.

38:28Fearne Cotton: I feel like his passion is something that gets him out of bed every day. It's just been this constant throughout his life. I think there's something to be said for having great passions. I mean, you've got many. having passion yes definitely or having a purpose and I do think it's important to contribute in this life if you live in a village or a street to know your neighbours to be aware you know if there's one two doors down and she's rather old can you put the bins out for them it's contributing I say that because yesterday our help was away and we had very heavy bins and our builder was passing and he said I see the bins are out can I put yours out you know it's yeah it's contributing that's so wonderful did you quiz your mum much about her longevity and not really but um we uh I was quite close to my and she did look after an awful lot of people.

39:34She started the Friends of the RUH Hospital in Bath because she suddenly realised, this was a long time ago, that the beds had no curtains round. So whenever anything was in a ward, everybody could see what was going on. So she knew some of the doctors and she got hold of all the surgeons and doctors' wives and said, do you realise that the service in the hospital is wonderful, but could we not club together and raise money for the little extra things in the hospital? Too right. And she did and it's still going now. How wonderful. That's so amazing. And the coffee shop she started. No way. So, you know, it's contributing, doing things, helping.

40:23A busy mind is a happy person.

40:26Fearne Cotton: I like to think that. I have to always have a project or something, a painting I'm working on, a book I'm writing. I'm not very good at being idle. You don't need to worry. You've got such a busy life. I've got a lot going on. A happy life. A happy life. It's so important. And also you've been married for a very long time. 60? Yes. Yes, this year. And you've got some beautiful wedding pictures in your birth. Are they? Oh, there's a gorgeous picture of you getting married in here. I think it's quite early on. I remember the flowers. Oh, it's just a gorgeous black and white photo. What do you think?

41:03Fearne Cotton: I mean, like divorce rates are obviously through the roof in this day and age. What do you think creates? There we go. There's the picture. Oh, yes. Well, that's the cake. I did make the cake and we didn't get around to icing it very much. And we just went in the garden on the morning and picked a few bits and bobs and put it all around. I had the vase on top. Was it a Vicky sponge? No, no, no. In those days, you always had fruit. Fruitcake. Yes, of course. We'd been married 60 years. Astonishing. We've never had a crossword. I can't bear shouting. No. And we're both the same. And again, the garden comes in.

41:44And even if I hadn't a garden, I would walk out of the front door. When you think, I can't believe that he's done that or how stupid, I will walk into the garden and walk around and think, now, am I going to say something? I think we'll just let it pass.

42:03Fearne Cotton: It's a good idea. Remove yourself from the scene. Exactly. Have some headspace, bit of distance, work out whether it's worth saying the thing or not. And also, I think to say sorry. Yeah. I went to, I've been to a girlfriend who has three sons and at each of the weddings of these sons, you know, the vicar, this was the lady vicar, talked to them and you can hear what they're saying at the altar. and to each of these boys she said, remember to say sorry. Or to both of them. Because it's rather difficult because you always think you're perfect and it does help to say sorry. Oh my gosh, I completely agree.

42:49Fearne Cotton: The one thing, you know, as parents, it's always hard raising kids. You're going to mess up constantly. You're going to have good days and bad days. But the one thing I'll always do is say sorry. If I've, you know, had a go at one of them or I've been a bit grumpy, I'll always say I'm sorry mum's tired today and now in return they're so quick to do the same if one of them's you know my son even last night said oh sorry I was being grumpy after school and I was like it's okay it's all good it's a really good practice to have I think really good practice so at the age of 91 when you look back over the years what are the important things that really stand out to you?

43:28Fearne Cotton: The moments in your life where you've really learned valuable lessons or just moments that feel extremely important? I think one of the most important things in life is to be kind. It takes a bit of thinking about and to be kind, to be helpful, to be tolerant. and I'm not always right. None of us are. None of us are. And do you have any regrets? Rather like you did. I wish I'd talked more to my father who was quite brisk. I should have talked and spent more time with him. But of course when you, I came to London to work and I would go down at weekends and see friends and I should have spent more time with them.

44:23Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I think most of us feel like that about a grandparent, a parent. You know, you think, oh, I wish I'd asked for more stories. That's what I'm craving from my nan, certainly, like all of those brilliant life stories because, of course, they had a whole life before they became parents, before they became grandparents, and it's so interesting. Many of our listeners, Mary, will be around my age, in their kind of 40s, younger and older, but a fair few of them will be around mid-40s. If you could say anything to Mary in her mid-40s, what advice would you give her?

45:00I think don't make rash decisions. If something comes through a new job, a new thing, a new venture or whatever, sleep on it and do something about it the next morning. whenever I've sort of thought oh that'd be fun I'll do it you know and I ring back and I think I should have waited I should have thought and just you know make sure that you're going to make the right decision yeah less haste less haste and think about it one of the important

45:34Fearne Cotton: relationships in your life has been someone you mentioned a couple of times lovely Lucy yes who I know who you've worked with for how would you say 36 years an incredible partnership and a friendship that's grown out of a love of cooking. What does that relationship mean to you? It means the world, really. She has become very wise and she's the one, she won't let me pick up the phone because, you know, I'll have a, someone will ask me to do something up in Manchester or something and I'll say, oh, that, oh, yes, of course I'll try and pick it. And Lucy says, she picks up the phone. And if we've got a connection or whatever, and we'll try and fit these things in.

46:19But she really advised me what I'm to do. She's got an enormous smile, great knowledge. And she's terribly good with people. Yeah, she's amazing. And we normally do things together.

46:33Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I love that. And yes, she comes everywhere where I go and make sure I'm on time. And if it's something very smart, she said, you have to have makeup. And I always say, oh, no, no, it doesn't matter. Oh, yes, it doesn't. She's so brilliant. It's such a good partnership. Yes. It's important to have people like that in our lives. And we laugh a lot. We do. And we have a lot of fun. Yeah, it's wonderful. So we're also putting together a collection of songs that will make people feel really good. So every guest that comes on, I get them to choose a song or a piece of music that they find uplifting, makes them feel really jolly.

47:13Fearne Cotton: Which song would you pick? Oh, something from ABBA. Yeah. We haven't got any ABBA on our playlist so far. That's great. I know. Well, I don't mind which one. Any ABBA song. I love sailing. Okay. No, that's not ABBA, is it? No. Sailing. Who is that? No. Is that Rod Stewart? Yes, Rod Stewart. But I mean, I like Rod Stewart and I like sailing Rod Stewart and I like most of the Abba songs. Okay, we'll put an Abba song on there, a good upbeat one we'll put on there. And lastly, Mary Berry, where is your happy place? My happy place is with my family at home, preferably on a lovely spring day outside, having a sort of easy lunch, lots of conversation and fun.

48:01Fearne Cotton: That sounds like the perfect day. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I urge anyone who either loves gardening or like me sees it on the horizon to read this book because not only is it packed with great stories, but it's got a lot of very useful tips and tricks and hacks for gardening if you're a complete beginner or someone like you that is very used to gardening. So go get it. Mary Berry, My Gardening Life. Thank you so much for being with me today. I've loved it, Fern. Oh, I loved that chat. What a treat. I mean, if you want, you can go back and listen to chat number one, which was lovely too, but this felt really in-depth and just so wonderful, magical.

48:47Fearne Cotton: I would say if you've got a granny alive, a granddad alive, or someone in your life who's in their 8th or 9th century, quiz them. Quiz them about life. Get all the wisdom. Get all the tips. We need to be learning about life and longevity from people who have lived long lives. I loved that conversation. Mary's book, My Gardening Life, is out now. Right. Have you read our Happy Place book club read for May? It was yesteryear. I mean, a lot of people have read this book. This book has been a global hit. And in a few days time, author Caro Claire Burke will be here to talk about trad wife influences, the manosphere, and finally having a novel published after many years of writing.

49:33Fearne Cotton: It's a really lovely conversation. I think you're going to like it, especially you bookworms. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to Mary and to you lot. You are bloody wonderful.

50:02Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby.