Melissa Urban

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that equips you with tools to make your everyday a little less stressful. Today, I'm meeting Melissa Urban. The way you get better at respecting and even recognizing other people's boundaries with you is by setting and holding them yourself. Because the more you unlearn this idea that boundaries are selfish, that having needs are selfish, that advocating for yourself is rude, or that people should take these boundaries personally when they really are a kindness and a gift to a relationship. The more you kind of embed that in your own psyche, the easier it is to recognize that when someone else sets a boundary with you.

0:41Melissa is a seven-time New York Times bestselling author, that's a lot of books, who specializes in helping people establish healthy boundaries. More on that in just a moment and successfully navigates habit change. She's also presented more than 150 health and nutrition seminars worldwide. I'll be honest, I've been well aware for quite some time that I need to chat with Melissa. She is the queen of setting boundaries, something I am pretty awful at and quite frankly need guidance on and I'm very willing to get better at. It's really, I think, my greatest challenge, but I'm so ready for it. I think it's a bit of a British thing as well.

1:27We struggle with the directness that setting boundaries needs. We're very apologetic about everything. But that's why I was so grateful to get to talk to Melissa because she started to make me really see that yes, setting boundaries might feel uncomfortable, but it's always coming from the kindest place possible. Okay, we'll chat to Melissa in just a moment. But first, I know just how important self-care is to you lovely lot. So I want to help you prioritise your wellbeing. We often need help with it. I certainly do. That's why we've dropped the monthly price on our Happy Place app to£4.99 and extended our free trial to one month so you can sample our whole set of practices straight away with no commitment.

2:14The app features a huge range of my favourite practices, including meditation, yoga, breathwork and soundscapes and much, much more. There are new practices and collections added every week from affirmations to walking meditations to tapping, which is highly effective and more. With practices from just one minute to one hour, there's something to fit into even the busiest of schedules, all led by familiar experts that I've chatted to here on the Happy Place podcast or who you might have seen at one of our Happy Place festivals. So go on, take your first step to being a happier and calmer you and try out the Happy Place app today.

3:00Just head to the Happy Place website to start your free trial now. All right then, here we go. This is the show.

3:29Hey, Melissa. Hello, good morning. Good morning to you. You are in Utah, is that correct? Yes, Salt Lake City, Utah, yes. Well, welcome to Happy Place. I am so glad that you're on the podcast because the subject we're going to hit up today is huge and one that I need to truly understand and implement into my life. We're going to talk about boundaries because as well as being a CEO, a mother and an author, a best-selling author, you're also very much known as the boundary lady. And I think boundary or boundaries, they're words that we hear battered about a lot, but I think there's still a ton of confusion about what they actually mean.

4:10So before we probably get started, can you just tell us the definition of a boundary? Sure. So I think about boundaries as limits that you set around how you allow other people to engage with you. So I think one of the common misconceptions about boundaries is that they're about controlling other people or telling other people what to do. And that's not at all the case. A boundary tells other people the actions that you will take to keep yourself safe and healthy and preserve the relationship. Which sounds amazing. And as we know, there are so many people out there, thousands of whom you've spoken to about boundaries and who you've helped guide and coach.

4:50I am I'm very much someone that still needs to work on this one. I'm definitely getting better with age, but it's something historically I've really struggled with. Why do you think so many people struggle with this in their lives? And why do we end up so boundary-less? Well, you know, I think women in particular, and then especially moms, have historically been conditioned not to have boundaries by the patriarchy, by stereotypically rigid gender roles, by religious influence, by diet culture. We have been taught to be small and to be compliant and to put everyone else's needs and comfort above our own.

5:29And when we do advocate for our own needs or our own feelings, we're told we're selfish or we're called far worse words. So we have been societally conditioned not to have boundaries. And I think they're very rarely modeled for us. You know, they're not taught in schools. They're not taught in the workplace. My parents and their parents didn't model healthy boundaries for me. So it's very much one of those, you know, life skills like credit management or time management that nobody teaches you, but you realize becomes incredibly important once you become an adult and often only in moments of crisis do we realize that this is a skill set we really need to build.

6:10Oh, my God. I mean, so massively. I could pull out so many different scenarios in my life over the years where I haven't put boundaries in place. And it always ends up in disaster of varying degrees. But I think if we start at the sort of less severe outcomes of not having boundaries, it's due to us simply being people pleasers. and I can again put my hand up and say I've definitely been a people pleaser during probably the earlier years of my life maybe a little less so now and you say in your book which I have right here the book of boundaries you are not a people pleaser and we people please because I don't know maybe we don't want to be disliked by the other person we don't want to be rejected or we fear that we'll upset or hurt the other person there is a huge amount of discomfort when setting a boundary.

7:02How do you get over that? There is a huge amount of discomfort. And again, we have been conditioned to be nice. I was always the good girl in school. I was the quiet one. I didn't cause trouble. I got good grades. And as we get older, we feel like if we are nice, if we tell the other person what they want to hear, or we sacrifice our own comfort or feelings to keep them comfortable, that that will make them happy. And then by default, that they will like us, that they will approve of us. And now our entire existence, everything I do and say in my behavior is dictated by what someone else expects of me.

7:36And that's a really tenuous place to be. And it is incredibly uncomfortable to advocate for yourself, to say, these are my needs, these are my feelings, and if I express this limit to you clearly and kindly, and you can meet me in these limits, then our relationship will be so much more open and so much more trustworthy and more respectful, and I won't have this dread and anxiety and be carrying around this sort of sense of avoidance. But what I say to people often is, yes, the idea of setting a boundary is uncomfortable, but so is what you are doing now. Holding your tongue and keeping the peace, never ever saying no and holding that resentment and doing things begrudgingly and avoiding certain people and that sense of dread, that's hard too.

8:22And that pattern doesn't get you anywhere. Whereas, expressing a boundary has the very real potential of changing that pattern forever and helping you release all of those negative feelings. Yeah, like you say there, right? So I think many people listening to this will really find that story familiar of being the good kid in class or being the good sibling in the family, the peacemaker, whatever, and there being an element of reward to that. It feels like that has just been exacerbated because of social media. And we now see that if you play by the rules, if you work to the algorithms, if you keep your mouth shut and go along with what is favourable, you will be liked, you will get likes, we will be able to quantify how liked you are.

9:09So if anything, we're even more sort of brainwashed by it today than ever on a level that's so subtle. We're not like, that's kind of almost me working this out on the spot now. Like, wait a minute, this is just like everywhere that we're being bombarded with this message that if you're nice and you're good and you keep your mouth shut, everyone's going to like you. Yes. If you work the system, you will be liked and people will approve of you, except the system sucks. The system keeps us playing small and doesn't ask us to add ourselves to our own list and insists that we continue to put everyone else's needs and comfort ahead of our own.

9:45So I don't want to work the system. No, I don't want to work the system, Melissa. I feel very passionate about this. And you know what I can see in sort of in ways I am and I have bucked against it. Like I traditionally was a TV host for many, many years. And I worked out pretty quickly as a teenager, are the system that we've just talked about. If you do what you're told and you don't really say very much, you'll be liked, you will hopefully continue to be hired. And you do end up feeling sort of straightjacketed, hence why I don't really do it anymore. I cannot work that system. And I actually ended up not being very good at it because I was just like, this is absolutely exhausting.

10:28And you do find new ways, new methods to be without seeking that constant outside validation. But I do think it is really uncomfortable and we need to sort of get over this. And I remember Brené Brown saying something similar about, you know, if you want to speak your truth, say what you really believe, you're going to piss people off. It is almost a definite that when you start setting boundaries, other people will feel either put out or confused because maybe they're just used to you acting in a certain way all the time. And yes, that is going to be deeply, deeply uncomfortable. And I still, I mean, I still struggle with this so much, hence why I'm so desperate to talk to you about it, because I still often don't know how to get past that.

11:19I've got some weird equation in my head that, you know, I'm still falling into the trap of, and that makes me a terrible person. And what if something awful now happens to me due to me setting a boundary or telling somebody no? I think we're all so sort of messed up in the head by this one. And it's causing us, well, it's causing me great angst, as you can probably tell. It's literally seeping out of my skin now. I just find it at times almost impossible. How do we start? What is the starting point of setting boundaries? So I think there are a lot of different places that people can start. and it really depends on your context, your relationships.

11:57Sometimes people read the book or have this conversation, listen to a podcast episode, and they say, that's it, I'm going after the gnarliest boundary, the one that is causing me the most stress. It's the mother-in-law, it's the best friend who's always emotionally dumping, it's the coworker who's always gossiping. Like, I'm going for that one straight on, and I'm gonna set that boundary because if I can successfully set it and hold it, and I know that I can because the boundary is always about the action that I am willing to take, not dependent on what the other person does. I am willing to set and hold this limit.

12:29And when I do, it is going to relieve so much anxiety, so much dread, so much frustration. It will feel like a weight off of my back. And then other people think, okay, I've never done anything like this before. I've never said no to anyone in my life. I have to find a place to start that feels comfortable and easy, in which case, you know, I like starting with food and drink. I like the idea of setting boundaries around foods that do not serve you and drinks that might not serve you because you can always control what you put in your mouth. So the next time someone says to you, do you want another glass of wine?

13:04You can reflect and check in with yourself. And if you don't, you say, no, thanks, I'm good. Or if someone says, oh, would you like a slice of birthday cake? And you just don't want it. It's not worth it. You don't do gluten, whatever reason you just say, no, thank you. I'm good. And that's a really great place to practice because nobody can argue with the idea that you just don't want it. No, I just don't want it right now. And you always have control over holding that boundary. So that can be an area in which you practice saying no. You realize that these conversations often are built up in your head to go so much worse than they actually go in real life.

13:36Most of the time when someone says, oh, do you want a glass of wine? And you go, no, I'm not drinking right now. They go, okay. And they move on and it's no big deal. And that's how a lot of these boundary conversations go to the people that you're setting boundaries with. They love you. They care about you. They probably didn't know that you had this limit that they were overrunning. And when you express it clearly and kindly, they're going to say, oh, wow, I didn't know. Yeah, sure. I'll call before stopping over. Yeah, sure. I don't have to bring the dog over this time. Oh, yeah, we don't have to talk about your ex.

14:03I'm sorry, I brought him up. And then all of a sudden, you're like, wow, that was so much easier than I thought. And getting some of those small wins can be really empowering in having some of those bigger conversations. Yeah, definitely. I think that's it, isn't it? They do. People like boundaries. I think people like to know where they stand. But of course, not everybody feels like that. I think the majority do. I think you're absolutely right. And I've definitely witnessed that in my own life, you know, sort of telling people that this is what I'm capable of or not and how much I can help out and can't, etc.

14:34etc. People like to know where they stand. It's, I guess, safer for them too. But there will, of course, be people that absolutely disregard your boundary, just totally either blind to it or can see it and think, yeah, I don't care, I'm still stepping over it. So what do we do when our boundaries are ignored? So in the case of someone reacting poorly to your boundary, that's usually a sign that it feels like you are revoking a privilege they were never meant to have. And they feel like you're taking something away when all you're doing is reasserting the balance of power that should have been there all along.

15:13Your mother-in-law is not entitled to show up at your house and demand your time and attention anytime she wants. That is an unreasonable expectation of two adults in a relationship. All you're saying is, hey, please call before you come over. And she might not like that. And she might stop over again without calling. In which case, you have expressed your boundary clearly and kindly. And if she knocks on that door again without calling, you can feel free to answer the door and say, Carol, it's not a good time. Would you like to come back later on this weekend? Or do you want us to give you a call later on today?

15:44You don't have to let her in just because she expects your time and attention in that moment. Now, I understand that that can feel scary. And I understand that you might feel like you're being rude. But who is the rude one here when you have clearly and kindly said this is something that our family needs, and it's a very reasonable request, and they continue to overstep your limit, you now have a decision to make. Do you want to be in this relationship knowing the only way you can be in this relationship successfully is if you show up when and where and how they want you to, and you behave exactly as they want you to, and you show up molded to their expectations, or would you rather have less of a relationship but get to show up as your full self and honor your needs and honor your feelings.

16:27That is ultimately the choice that you have to make. And I can't make that choice for you. But I know for me and the bulk of my relationships, I don't want to be in a relationship with that person if it means I have to play small every time I spend time with them. So I like fictional Carol, the fictional mother-in-law. Let's just focus on Carol for a bit longer because this is intriguing. So Carol keeps coming around, right? And you've already said to her politely, look, Carol, this is not going to work out that you're coming over without telling me first. She keeps doing it. You then say to her, look, we've discussed this.

17:00I don't feel comfortable. Can you come back another time? She flips a lid. She's shouting about it. She's telling all the family how mean you are. Does this sometimes result in you not having a relationship with this person? Is that a better outcome than you being in it and it being dysfunctional? Sometimes it is. But the reason that I encourage people to set boundaries early in relationships is so that you can explore whether or not you can still maintain a relationship with this person within the context of setting a boundary around a very specific behavior or conversation topic. What usually happens in boundary-less relationships is Carol keeps coming over without calling.

17:41You hold your tongue. You let her in. She shows up. You're cranky. You're short. You're not ready for her visit. She's wondering why you're being mean to her. You're wondering why she doesn't just like magically understand that she should be calling before she comes over. Nobody's having fun in this relationship. Your husband or your spouse is affected. Your kids are affected. Everybody's relationship is worse for this scenario. If you don't set a boundary here, what can happen is over the course of time, you just eat it and swallow it and you get more and more resentful. And then finally you explode and you say, I don't think I can have a relationship with Carol anymore.

18:15And what has happened is that there's opportunities in the middle for you to say, hey, Carol, our relationship can be so much better if we just agreed to this one limit, which in the big scheme of things is relatively small over the course of our relationship. I want you to set those boundaries so that you can first explore, is Carol willing to hear my limit and respect it so we can continue to have a relationship? If you try and try and try and you set green boundaries and yellow boundaries and red boundaries. And over the course of time, you realize Carol is just deeply committed to disrespecting every healthy limit that you have.

18:49Then the next conversation might be, do we have to change our relationship with Carol? Do we have to take a break? Do we have to communicate with her differently? Do we only see her on specific holidays and only for the kids? Do we not have a relationship with her altogether? But before you get to that point, I want you to explore, is there a limit I can set that would allow this relationship to continue and to be healthy because that is the whole point of boundaries. They are designed to make relationships better. Yeah. And as you say, it's so important that you set them at the start, which I just haven't done so many times and then have ended up in such a shit show.

19:25But look, talk to us about your green, yellow and red categories in your book, because you've got scripts for these different colors and scenarios. So tell us about them, how you devise them and how you use them. Yes, the green, yellow, red framework for boundaries happened really early in my journey with recovery. So I'm a recovering drug addict. I've been in recovery for 22 years now. But early in my recovery, I realized that I would have to set and hold a lot of boundaries in order to preserve my recovery. and I would look at, I think, the risk of this person's behavior. If somebody asks me if I want a drink, the risk is relatively low.

20:04I can do a really casual, really clear, really kind, no thank you, and they go on their way. If they are now drunk and pressuring me relentlessly to have a drink, that is like a threat level red. My recovery is at risk. I don't feel safe, and I need a much stronger boundary phrase in that situation. I share green, yellow, red scripts for every single scenario in the book of boundaries because I want you to assume that the other person just didn't realize you had a limit, and if you expressed it clearly and kindly, they would happily meet you in that limit for the sake of the relationship. That's your green script.

20:38You go in clear, it's gentle, it's still direct, you're not hinting, you're not making them guess, but it's the kindest, clearest boundary that you can set. if they demonstrate that they either forget or they're struggling to respect the boundary or they're testing your boundary and pushing back, then you have a yellow boundary. It is more direct, a bit more clear. It's still kind, but here's where you're saying, I am reinstating this limit and I'm letting you know that I mean it. And here's where you might share a consequence if they continue to disrespect your limit. The red boundary is the boundary itself.

21:17It is the action you are going to take in the face of blatant disrespect to keep yourself safe and healthy. So it is the fourth time in a row that Carol knocks on the door without calling and expects to be let in. You just don't answer the door. It's not a good time for you. She didn't call. That was a family request. And you just don't answer the door. That is the action you are willing to take in the face of such a serious threat to the health of your relationship. Yeah, Carol's relentless, isn't she? She just doesn't. Carol doesn't bloody give up. She's outrageous. So take me back to this time when you discovered boundaries, because you so eloquently talk about your earlier life in the book to demonstrate how you stumbled across needing boundaries.

21:59It wasn't something that you were born with. It wasn't something that you were modeled or taught, as you said earlier. You were struggling with addiction around 22. And this is the moment where you realized there are no boundaries. So tell me what was going on in your life at this point? Yeah, I was, I spent five years addicted to drugs. I went to rehab. I had a year in recovery and then I relapsed as many addicts often do. And into my second recovery, nobody knew I had relapsed. I found myself in another really tenuous position. I was at a party I didn't belong at with people I didn't know doing God knows what in the bathroom.

22:35And I realized that my, I felt like my life was at stake at this point. I didn't know if I'd make it back a second time. Nobody knew that I was struggling. Nobody knew that I had relapsed. And in a moment of sheer terror and honest to God boundary just tumbled out of my mouth, I said to my friend, this does not feel safe to me. I can't be here. I need to go home. And I thought that expressing what I needed in my recovery to the people I was closest to would leave me isolated, would leave me feeling abandoned. I would lose all my friends. They would. And what I discovered was that it was exactly the opposite.

23:08Being willing to share my feelings and my needs and inviting people to meet me in those limits strengthened all of my relationships. They made me feel less alone. They made me feel more trustworthy and more respect in my relationships. I quickly figured out the friends that weren't able to respect those limits and I dropped them, which was the best thing I could have done for my recovery. And I realized that boundaries were the thing that I had been missing all along. And I went on this boundary setting room springer, where it was, you know, everybody got a boundary. I talked about boundaries with myself.

23:39I talked about boundaries with friends and family, with conversation topics, with the people, you know, that I hung out with and the things that we chose to do. I used boundaries to shore up my recovery and it expanded my life beyond my wildest dreams. And that was really my first experience with the power of setting and holding boundaries in my own life. And so do you, before you start setting So, you know, obviously your example is very definite and there was a real purpose as to why you were doing it. Is it important to set boundaries with yourself first to go, right, this is this is not OK.

24:15I'm not going to do that anymore because a lot of the time the destructive behavior that we endure is self-inflicted. I know that from picking the skin around my nails to choosing not to exercise or meditate, that I can self-sabotage and be a bloody nightmare to myself. So is it almost harder to set them with yourself because you're accountable for the boundary you're setting? Boundaries with yourself are tricky. On one hand, they are incredibly powerful because you are the only person involved in the equation and you don't need to rely on anybody else's behavior in order to have a successful boundary.

24:54On the other hand, as you just mentioned, they're incredibly tricky. because if I set a boundary not to use drugs and then one day at my house by myself, I discover something in my bathroom drawer and I use, nobody's gonna know. Nobody's gonna like jump out of the closet and slap it out of my hand. So boundaries with yourself are very tricky, but here's how I talk about the interplay between boundaries with yourself and boundaries with others. If you are setting a boundary with yourself around not drinking alcohol, maybe you're not gonna drink alcohol for 30 days, and then you fail to set supporting boundaries with others around that.

25:30So you have friends over for dinner and you don't say to them, please don't bring alcohol over tonight. We're like not drinking right now. So dinner is like an alcohol-free event. Or you don't say to them, you guys can bring wine if you want to, but I'm not drinking right now, so please don't offer me any. If you don't set supporting boundaries with other people, it's going to make it a lot harder to hold the boundary with yourself. So there really is this interplay. If you want to start with boundaries with yourself, great, because again, that's only one person in that equation. But I often find that if you don't expand that practice into setting boundaries with others, it's going to make it a lot harder for you to hold because your time and your energy and your mental health and your capacity are going to continue to be compromised in these other areas of your life, which is going to eat away at the commitment you make to yourself.

26:16Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there'll be people listening to this going, God, I really bloody need to do this. But I'm sure there'll also be, or maybe the same group of people going, oh, God, I'm again, we'll go back to what I talked about earlier on. I'm dreading saying that to my friend. She's going to think this about me or that. And it seems the main problem, really, and it spills into all areas of life is the fact that we just want to be liked. And I'm not even sure why anymore. You know, I'm sure it wasn't this bad 100 years ago. I'm sure people weren't that bothered about everybody liking them.

26:48And again, that just seems to be just a huge problem. This is like all about self-worth, us finding self-worth without exterior validation, us feeling OK to set these boundaries because we simply like ourselves. I mean, yes. Glennon Doyle said, be willing to disappoint everyone else before you are willing to disappoint yourself. The issue is that we don't even put ourselves on our own list. And if we are on our list, we're at the very bottom. And if somebody else likes me at the expense of me liking myself, if I don't like who I am when I'm with this person, or I don't like how I feel after I've spent time with them, or I find that I'm changing myself or my behavior just to get approval from them, I don't like myself very much in that scenario.

27:36And I am not willing to disappoint myself before I'm willing to disappoint somebody else. And I think you do just have to remember and think about the idea that most of the people in your life, they do love you. They do care about you. They do want to show up in a way that feels good to you. And until you tell them, they are just guessing. As you said earlier, boundaries create a sense of safety in a relationship. When you say to me, hey, can you do this podcast recording with me? And I say, no, I can't this week. I'm absolutely at capacity. How about two weeks from now? You might be disappointed, but what you're saying is, wow, okay, that's cool.

28:12She let me know what her capacity is. She's not going to show up resentfully. She's not going to show up distracted. And then the next time you ask and I say, yes, you know, I'm saying yes authentically. And then I'm going to show up as my fullest self and my best self without resentment. There's no hidden messages. The clarity that boundaries bring to relationships is a gift. What if you fear that you saying no or setting that boundary is going to absolutely crush the other person? Do we have to just go, that's their shit, they've got to deal with it? How do we deal with those sorts of boundaries?

28:46I mean, so sometimes, but it kind of depends on the situation. So if you invite me to be on your podcast and I can't do it because I don't have the energetic capacity and I know I can't show up as my best self, you might be so disappointed. You might be so upset. You might have been looking forward to this. This was like your favorite podcast episode you were ever going to record. And you might be disappointed, and I'm going to have to live with that because I can't show up the way that I want to show up for you in my integrity. Now, if you asked me something far more important, can you come with me to a funeral?

29:20I'm going to do everything in my integrity to do that because I know that missing that opportunity or that event for you is going to have a profound impact on your wellness and your well-being. So again, I'm not saying yes resentfully. What I am saying is sometimes I'm willing to put aside my own needs and my own comfort in support of someone else. That's a very different thing than saying, oh, I don't want to do it, but this person expects me to. So like, yeah, I guess I'll go. I'm only going to say yes if I can do so authentically. And if I can't say yes, then yeah, I mean, there is a point where it's like the way you choose to respond to my boundary is not my business.

29:54Yeah, I completely get it. And I guess this actually really plays into the discussion that you have in the book around partnership, marriage, you know, living with someone else that, you know, as you've said, you set the boundaries early, you let the person that you're with know what you are willing or not willing to do in that, you know, very intense situation where you're married to someone living with someone partnering with someone. So how do you work out the areas of compromise? Because if they're also coming to the table with very firm boundaries that they want to really sturdily stick to, how do you work out where compromise should live, where it should dwell?

30:36How do you do that? Yeah, so I think the important thing to remember is that there is always a compromise. Well, most of the time there's a compromise, or at the very least, you should always try to explore a compromise. So let's go back to Carol. You want Carol to call before she comes over because to you, it's incredibly disruptive. Carol expects you to entertain her while your spouse is sort of off puttering, doing his own thing, dropping in whenever they feel like it. And your spouse is like, look, this is how we grew up. Mom could just come in any time. And I really love that feeling of mom coming in any time.

31:08It feels like there's no compromise here, but there is. Okay, well, would it be reasonable for you to ask your mom just to give us at least an hour's notice? That's not a ton of notice, but at least that lets me get the house ready and kind of prepare. Or if it's really not a good time because we're right in the middle of dinner, I can let her know. Or, okay, well, if your mom drops over without calling, then I won't feel obligated to entertain her if I am busy. If you want your mom to drop by without calling, cool. But if I'm busy and I can't visit, then you're going to take responsibility for visiting with her and making sure she has tea and lunch and everything else.

31:41Does that work for you? So there are places where you can explore a compromise such that you are both on the same page and everybody is getting what they want. in areas where there isn't a compromise. I have a little trick that I call the magic number, which is, okay, how important is it to you, husband, that your mom drop by without calling? In the big scheme of things, how important on a scale of one to 10? Is it one, you don't care at all? Or 10, if your mom can't come by without calling, it's going to be the end of your life, right? And then I'm going to come up with my number as well, and then you share them.

32:12And in all honesty, as long as you're being self-aware and honest with each other, If it's like an eight to me that your mom doesn't come over without calling because it is so disruptive to me and the kids and you're only a four, then we're going to have Carol start calling. I win. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but that's a good way for you both to demonstrate the idea of like we want different things, but how badly do we want them or how important is it to us and our family structure that we set it up this way? I love that. Back to Melissa in just a moment. But right now, go on. it's time to take a little moment for you.

32:50Trust us to guide you towards better sleep and a calmer life. Explore the Happy Place app with a whole month free and enjoy the benefit of these practices all in one place. Think of it like your very own wellness companion. Just go to the Happy Place website to start your free trial now. Now, obviously, I'm British and I have spent the last 41 years mainly in the UK. And if you've ever been here or spoken to many British people, you'll know how boundary setting could be. We are the most apologetic nation ever. When we don't even need to be about stupid shit. You know, like someone setting a boundary in the UK will start like, I just there's this thing that I was maybe going to ask.

33:39But, you know, literally no pressure if you can't do it. And I don't even have to. You know, it's like not a big deal. But actually, I was just wondering if I'm sorry if this is a bad time for me to say this. And you're like, why am I even doing this? This over explaining, apologetic preamble into the thing. I've heard myself say that a million times. How important is it to not over explain? I mean, I think it's very important. And I also think it is a habit that we have to unlearn. Again, as women, we have been taught that we better have a damn good reason for having a need or expressing our feeling.

34:16And unless the other person agrees to and approves of our limit, it's not really worth setting. And very often what can happen is that an over-explanation can backfire. So let's stick with Carol for a minute, right? Because this is a very concrete example. you care you say to carol hey carol um i really need you to start calling before you come over if you don't mind if like that's okay because it's a little disruptive for the kids sometimes and sometimes i'm busy and it's not always a good time and and it would just i think it would probably help if you called first and then carol says oh don't worry i won't be any trouble at all I'll come in you won't even know I'm here I'll be so good with the kids because to Carol it looks like you are putting up an objection that she can solve if it's not a great time for you and you're busy Carol's gonna say don't worry you won't even know I'm here but it's not about the fact that you might be busy it's about the fact that you just need Carol to call you just don't want Carol over not not without notice please just give me some notice so I know it feels abrupt and we have been told often as women that when we are direct, we are rude.

35:26We have been told to equate directness with rudeness, which is bullshit. I know it can feel direct or too direct to say, hey, Carol, would you please call before you come over? Give us about maybe an hour's notice. Thanks. There's nothing impolite about that. There's nothing rude about that tense. I know. I know. But, you know, sometimes I'm like, just channel a mediocre white man. Think about when you are sharing your boundary sentiments like what would Todd from the office say right he would just say uh no I can't meet at two can you meet at three he wouldn't say I'm so sorry I can't meet at two like I might be able to squeeze it in if I move this other no he would just say I can't meet at two could you meet at three yes that's what I say do you know what I was met with a really good blunt boundary recently in the best way um and I actually really laughed in the moment about it and and felt absolutely fine with it because I'm not known for my sort of partying these days.

36:23I'm not massively into social events. I'm tired from parenting and work. And they're my, you know, two things that I've really decided to put all my energy into. And somebody said, I'm having a birthday thing at blah, blah, but you're not invited because you won't come. And I went, you're right. And it was just easy. Correct. You have summed that up beautifully. Well done. Talk to me, Melissa, about energy leakage. What is it? Why does it happen? Energy leakage is a very unscientific term. You are not going to find it in a medical journal, but it is this idea that every interaction, whether you and I are having a conversation or I'm talking to my mom in my home or a coworker is in passing or I'm scrolling through old photos of my ex on Instagram, all of those are an energetic exchange, right?

37:16Replying to comments on social media, going down a rabbit hole on TikTok, all of that is an energetic exchange. And very often we find that we are expending energy, more energy than we are taking in, in ways that we don't even realize. And I call it energy leakage because it feels like by the end of my workday, I will get done with my workday and I have nothing left for my kid and my husband. And I don't know why my workday wasn't super busy. It wasn't super stressful. And then I think about what I did and I'm like, oh, I spent all this time on Instagram answering DMs and I got sucked into this discussion on this other Twitter feed and got dragged down the rabbit hole in that.

37:58And And I'm still stewing over like the fight I had with my mom. And all of those are examples of energy leakage. And until we become aware of them and figure out how to shore them up by setting boundaries with ourselves and with others, we may find our energy is just low all the time. We just don't have capacity to do the things that we want because it's kind of leaking out in other areas. And also, I think when your energy is low and you feel stressed and they can often come hand in hand because you don't feel able to cope with your life and the speed of everything that's when you're least likely to set a good boundary because there's tons of studies I've been sort of doing a bit studying on stress recently for a project I'm working on and in those moments that you're stressed you make the worst decisions you're not in a good headspace when you're low energy and stressed to go I know that setting a boundary is a good idea you probably will go down the route of making it worse for yourself and that's just I guess human nature It's that's why it's so important to check in with where your energy is going, where you're choosing to channel it so that you're feeling robust and strong to set a decent boundary.

39:07Yes. You know, so in the face of stress, it's biological as well. The body and the brain are always going to choose what is easy and what is rewarding. Right. And so in the moment, it can feel a lot easier and a lot more rewarding not to hold the boundary with yourself or not to get into the confrontation with your mom or your coworker. And then, yes, we make it harder on ourselves. This is why at sort of the foundation of my boundary practice, like a step before the first step of identifying the need for a boundary, I advocate that we build in these moments of checking in with ourselves all throughout our day.

39:41I have them built in first thing in the morning when I meditate around meals before bed. I'm constantly checking in with myself between Zoom calls. Okay, how am I doing? What do I need? Do I need a break? Do I need a meal? Do I need to sit? Do I need some quiet time? Do I need connection? Like, what do I need? And the more often I do that and the more habitual that practice becomes, the more I am going to instinctually in moments of stress, not look outward to what someone else is asking or expecting of me, but look inward and say, okay, what do I need in this moment? And I'm willing to take a pause and say, I can't reply to this just yet.

40:14Give me a second to find out what I need, like what future Melissa would do best with in this moment. Yeah, which, again, I think is sort of bucking the trend of not even what we're taught these days, but what is the norm that we that we look to the outside world for how we are feeling or how we should feel? And I think it's so important to have that pause. You know, I'm not saying this from a place where I've nailed it, but I certainly understand that that is a better option to stop and go, wait, does that make me feel good? What's why am I looking out here everywhere to see what I need, what I don't need, what I should be saying, what I shouldn't be saying?

40:49It's we've just it's so the norm that we have to sort of remind ourselves to do these very, very basic things. so also right we we've covered the ground of creating boundaries for people that we would like to keep in our lives that we'd like to have a decent relationship with that we'd like to you know have a better relationship with but what about people that from the get-go have been tricky people we haven't asked for in life they could be relatives people that have come along with other people in your life whatever it might be and you're trying to set boundaries with somebody who is already a nightmare.

41:27How is it different? How does that work? You know, sometimes you'll be trying to reach out to somebody who's extremely tricky and you don't really care if the relationship is maintained or if there even is one. You would just like to set a boundary so they're either not around as much or not doing what they're doing, not saying what they're saying. That could be met with silence, possibly at the worst case scenario, silence, where there is no response. What do you do in that situation? Well, again, remember that a boundary can't depend on how someone else chooses to respond. So it is always about the action you are willing to take.

42:05If you are willing to let this relationship go entirely, if you've tried and you've tried, and for whatever reason, whether it's a family member, whether it's a close friend, and this person is just, they're toxic, they're unhealthy, they're unhealed, whatever the reason is that They're showing up in your life and causing chaos. You are willing to let that relationship go. Then your boundary is, I will not be engaging with you anymore. Like, I think we need to take a break from this relationship. So what that might mean on your behalf is that you block them. You unfollow them. You don't go to family events where you know they're going to show up.

42:40You can't control what they do. So they might still try to call you. They might still try to get at you through other family members. But you can continue to set boundaries there too. So if your sister comes and says, mom is so upset at the way you're behaving. Listen, Kelly, I want to have a good relationship with you. My relationship with mom is like not on the table. We either don't discuss it or you and I will not be spending time together either. So you have to be willing to take the actions that you can take to protect yourself, even in the face of that person's unhealthy or toxic behavior.

43:11And I guess a lot of the time you sort of land on acceptance, don't you? That, you know, some people will never change or, you know, you certainly can't control them. We all have to have acceptance of that, but that some situations won't get any better. And that's probably the most sensible outcome is to try and land on acceptance. And that's uncomfortable, but it's still better than being in a toxic dynamic. I think sometimes a lot of people mistake grief around a relationship ending or grieving the potential of what the relationship could have been for, I made a mistake and I did the wrong thing by setting this boundary.

43:48So, you know, in the case of breaking up with a friend, for example, that you've been just struggling with for a really long time, very often you can, maybe you end the friendship, you have the coffee, you say the hard thing, and then you go home and then you are like, oh my gosh, did I make a mistake? And really what you're doing is you're grieving. You're grieving the loss of the history. You're grieving the loss of the good times. You're grieving the loss of what this friendship could have been. but if you don't want the relationship back exactly the way it was when you left it then you did not do the wrong thing then you did the right thing in ending it right because what you can't have is the relationship back in the way that you would magically want it to show up because that's not under your control so this is a little bit of like accepting reality yeah and i think grieving friendships is really hard because we're kind of maybe not taught but we learn pretty quickly that you can openly grieve about the end of a romantic relationship and you know that will transpire in many varying ways but with friendships I think we feel embarrassed maybe ashamed there's often not so much finality like when you've been in a relationship with someone there'll be certain things like you give them their toothbrush back or they give you the house keys back or whatever it might be, there's kind of these tangible things that mean this is the end of our relationship and we're not going to share a bed anymore if that was what you did, whatever it might be.

45:17With friendships, it can often feel quite blurry, I think. I think that it can. And I think sometimes that's the result of friendships usually, or often at least, lasting way longer than relationships, right? I've had friends since childhood. And I think that it also can be that you hang on to friendships for a really, really long time over distance and over growth and over life changes just because of sort of the sunk cost, right? Well, we've been friends a really long time and we don't talk as much anymore and we don't have as much in common anymore. But I'm okay in a lot of those situations for it to be like a once a year Christmas card thing.

45:54It's still nice to get a Christmas card from my friend Jan, even though we're not as close anymore. In the case of friendships though that have become toxic or that have become unhealthy, that sunk cost is not a good enough reason to continue them. And in that case, I honestly suggest that you treat breaking up the friendship just like you would a relationship. You should be clear. You should be kind. But this idea of ghosting or just not calling them back or just sort of letting it drift off, first of all, that's not kind if you know that the relationship is not working for you. And very often it backfires because then they get mad at you.

46:28Well, why are you not calling me? And why are you not? And then you feel guilty. And then you end up overcompensating to make up for the fact that you haven't been a good friend. And then you find yourself even more entrenched in this relationship that you are trying to end. The kindest thing you can do if you know that that's the right move is just to have the conversation. I think we're in different places in our life now. I'm in a different place in my life. And I think that, you know, the friendship is the season is over. And I'm sure that that's uncomfortable to hear. And it's definitely uncomfortable for me, too.

46:59But, you know, I wish you nothing but the best. And I wanted to let you know clearly so that you didn't have any questions about where we stood. Yeah, it sucks. Of course. It's not fun. It makes me want to get uncomfortable. I want to faint when you're saying it. I'm like, I'm going to pass out. Do you know what? It's so important that you're saying this is the kindest way because I think boundaries, you know, reading your book, it always goes back to the kindest option. It might feel uncomfortable. It might sound harsh to the receiver, but you're doing it with kindness because it's the best for you.

47:28And it's the best for them because you're showing up with the most energy and the most comfort in any given situation because you've told them what your boundary is. It is about kindness. Yes. And then they're not wondering. They're not they're not. Well, you know, how come she doesn't respond to my texts as much anymore? In the last three times I've asked her to coffee, she said no. And did I do something wrong? Did I do something to make her mad? Like, that's not kind either. I think friendship breakups are more uncomfortable than romantic breakups because you assume that you – why would you have to break up with a friend?

47:58You've got other friends who fill other needs. You don't have to be monogamous with friends. Like, what's the harm in just letting it continue? But friendships can really suck you dry in terms of your energy and your capacity in some situations. And sometimes, you know, you set that boundary and you say, I don't think we'll be spending time together anymore. more and you walk out of that coffee shop and you feel a thousand pounds lighter. Yeah. And that's where you're like, OK, all right. That was the right move. Without a doubt. Do you think it's helpful to look to your own, I guess, childhood or upbringing?

48:31Because when sort of establishing why you are like you are, because as you've said, especially for women, there will be societal pressures that we, you know, turn up in a certain way, express ourselves and hold ourselves in certain ways that's expected. So you're the nice, compliant human that everybody likes. But do you think often a lot of it is also set in the home, in childhood, because of, you know, your parents' stress levels or the dynamic or what they were going through will have such a huge impact on how you grow up in the world and how you believe you fit into it? I think a lot of people pleasers probably felt like, you know, they in childhood in some way had to mould.

49:14I think a lot of my people pleasing comes from starting in this job at a very young age where I just wanted to do what was right so I didn't get sacked, you know, as a kid. And then you just get used to that's how it works. How handy is it to sort of unpick the past? I think it's very handy. And also, I think it's incredibly challenging to do on your own, and perhaps even more challenging to do with your parents or your family members. I think this is a subject best explored in therapy. Yeah. Because I think you need that outside perspective to be able to help you like unroll it and unpack it.

49:48And you can only see it the way that you see it, your parents see it the way that they see it. And I can have some conversations with my parents now where they're like, yeah, I just didn't know. I didn't know to do it any differently. Like this was the way that my parents raised me. And this is what I thought was best for you. And now looking back, like would I do it differently? Maybe, but I did the best I could. And sometimes those conversations are really great and really helpful and can be very kind of nourishing. But I've had to do most of my stuff in therapy, not to say that there was something supremely wrong with my childhood or that my parents were terrible at all.

50:18But you're right. The way that you were raised and the messages that you got and what you internalized and the things that happened to you absolutely shape who you are now and the things that you believe about yourself and about others and relationships and love. And I think that's really healthy to unpack with therapists. Yeah, without a doubt. And would you say that over the years, since the age of 22, when you first had this monumental discovery, has it got easier to set boundaries? Do you still feel discomfort when setting them? It has gotten so much easier and I still feel discomfort. Yes.

50:53It's easier in that there are so many areas now where it's just automatic and I don't even think about it. The professional settings, the saying no to things that I don't have capacity for that aren't of interest to me. I'll get a podcast request and I'll say, thanks, but this isn't in my like swim lane. Or thanks, but this isn't really on brand for me. Or this isn't really my area of expertise. Or this isn't something I'm, you know, I want to talk about right now, given my current media cycle. like that's easy, no problem whatsoever. Setting boundaries with friends and family to say, you know, with my husband, for example, to be like, hey, I need an hour of alone time.

51:26Can you like take the kid and I'm going to go for a walk? Like those kinds of things feel really, really easy. But there are still some boundaries in every area, whether it's with my mom, whether it's with work where I struggle. I struggle to advocate for myself, even though I know it's the right thing to do because I know that I'll be letting someone else down or that other people have expectations. And yeah, it's still deeply uncomfortable, but that's why boundaries are a practice. Like you'll never be perfect at them in every single situation. The key is just to continue to practice and to learn from the times when maybe you don't get it right or you don't advocate for yourself well.

52:01But that's really empowering because I think if we believe some people are just good at boundaries and some aren't, then we'll just, we won't even make an effort. But I think if you know it's about practice and that every time you do it, it might get a little bit easier. You might end up in some areas of your life feeling like it's completely automatic. That is, that's empowering. You know, that's, that's motivating me to get better at it for sure. It is a skill like any other. It is a skill that needs to be taught, that needs to be practiced, that needs to be refined, where you need to show yourself grace, where sometimes it will go very well and sometimes it won't go well.

52:35But it is a skill that anybody can learn and anybody can become good at and better at. And the best part about it is that you can be the boundary chain reaction in your friend group, in your family group, in your workplace where others see you advocating for yourself and say, I didn't know I could do that. And then they start advocating for themselves. And then you get better at recognizing when someone is setting a boundary with you and you respond more gracefully and more collaboratively. And now everyone in this circle is feeling comfortable advocating for their needs and responding politely and finding these compromises where needed and feeling more trust and feeling more respect.

53:15It can set off this positive chain reaction in so many areas of your life. Yeah, that's a very good point because I've been very selfishly sort of trying to learn from this myself, putting myself into the picture of me setting boundaries. But of course, we're constantly also going to be on the receiving end of other people's boundaries. And that's a whole other flavor of discomfort that you might have to experience. But one that I guess I'm probably better at that. I don't mind so much if people set boundaries with me because I'm always up for looking at why I've reacted in a certain way. Like, oh, why did that hurt?

53:49Ouch. You know, and I'll go and have a dig around in it. That bothers me less. But I'm sure there are many people who will find that bit of it more difficult as well. It can be hard not to take someone else's boundary personally. And it can feel like, oh, I set this boundary because I know it's coming from a place of, you know, a healthy desire to improve the relationship. But when they set a boundary with me, it feels punitive. It feels personal. The way you get better at respecting and even recognizing other people's boundaries with you is by setting and holding them yourself. Because the more you unlearn this idea that boundaries are selfish, that having needs are selfish, that advocating for yourself is rude, or that people should take these boundaries personally when they really are a kindness and a gift to a relationship.

54:34The more you kind of embed that in your own psyche, the easier it is to recognize that when someone else sets a boundary with you. I like this conversation a lot. I'm really just letting it all percolate, Melissa, because I have got work to do. I mean, I knew I had work to do before I even bloody read your book. I was like, oh my God, I'm going to have to change so much. but I know it's for the better. And it actually excites me at times thinking about what's possible. You end the book by sort of giving a rundown of one of your weeks that has gone a particular way because you've set not huge boundaries that are going to cause you great stress, but small incremental boundaries.

55:14And then you also unpick a week where you haven't, a fantasy week where you haven't set any boundaries and it all goes to absolute shit. And it is, you know, your life can go in this direction or that direction because of boundaries. It's kind of that simple. And it's something that you can start right now, this minute, today to immediately reclaim some of your time, energy, mental health, physical space, sense of safety, capacity. That's the brilliance of it. You can start right. You can leave this call and start right now. Yeah. And like you've just said, it's going to impact every area of your life.

55:48This isn't just about relationships. This is, you know, if you're not setting boundaries and you're feeling extremely stressed on a daily basis in the workplace or at home or in a friendship circle, how that stress will manifest physically. You know, we've all seen that whether we have migraines or we're constipated or we have mouth ulcers or whatever. You know, that's the manifestation of you not setting a boundary. Yes, exactly. Terrifying. It is those small boundaries that I set throughout the course of my week. They're really small things that don't feel like much in the moment, but really add up to that stress relief and the ease and the comfort with which I go about the rest of my day and week.

56:32I love it. I absolutely love it. I loved reading your book. It's been fantastic talking to you today. Melissa, thank you so much. I, as I said, I'm going to go away and mull over all of it. And I'm going to set a jolly good boundary today as practice. Good. Keep me posted. Let me know how it goes. Well, I told you I was going to be setting a good boundary. That was a couple of weeks ago. And have I set any boundaries? Do you know what? I have. What I'm trying to do is, first of all, establish this on email because I find written word much easier than spoken word, which is ironic considering my job.

57:12but I really do. And this week I have sent, I'd say two or three emails where I really said what I needed to say politely, letting people know that I couldn't offer what they asked for and also declining offers that I don't think I've got the energy for. And it felt uncomfortable, but I did it. But my next challenge is to do it with my actual voice. Wish me luck. Oh my God. But thank you, Melissa, for putting me on the right path. so appreciated. The book of boundaries, set the limits that will set you free is out now. What boundaries do you know you need to set in your life? Come and chat over on Instagram at happy place official.

57:53That's where we'll be until we're back next week with another episode. Thanks again to the brilliant Melissa, to the producer, my right hand woman, Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you. I absolutely adore you for being here. Thank you.

58:13Thank you.