Millie Mackintosh: “I would drink to forget” Self-esteem, shame, and sobriety

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that nudges you towards healthier habits. Today I'm chatting to Millie McIntosh. We did couples therapy and I really had to own up to the harm that I'd caused him in the relationship through my drinking and the horrible things I'd said to him. I turned into quite a mean drunk in the last couple of years of drinking, which I do feel horrible about that. And seeing my children and wanting them to grow up with a mother that was going to be present, that wasn't going to be so anxious that she couldn't communicate properly with them.

0:36I didn't want them to grow up and be influenced by having a mother with a drinking problem. Hello guys, you catch me in an absolute shitstorm today of one kid being off ill, trying to prep podcasts for the week and record this very intro as we get ready for this week's episode of Happy Place. It is one of those days where everything is just a bit of a mess. certainly the room my son is sat in currently with sort of snacks strewn about the place obviously YouTube blaring loudly etc the juggle is real but we're doing it do you know what I'm doing to get through today I'm just eating I'm comfortable eating and I think here and there why not go for what makes you happy and for me it's just chocolate I don't think there's a better invention.

1:30Butter on toast a close second, but for me, chocolate all the way. I'm generally comforted today by chocolate. On that note, we've got some big stuff to talk about. Millie, she's an entrepreneur, an influencer and Made in Chelsea alumni. Now, if you follow her on Instagram, you may well know that she decided to go alcohol free in 2022 after acknowledging the impact drinking was having on her health and well-being. Now she's written a book called Bad Drunk that documents that full experience from the events that led to her decision through to the very tangible effects of her sober life she now leads.

2:08This was such a cool chat because I mean sometimes we you know we've had chats about alcohol before but it's often framed in the context of alcoholism and this is slightly different a slightly different tone and flavour to this chat and one that I think will resonate with many, many people. One of them being that, you know, looking at when something becomes a problem and how you know it's a problem. Also reaching big life moments and realising that your behaviour's got to change, which is bloody hard when you've been in little cycles of habitual behaviour for some time. It's really hard to break it.

2:44We talk about panic attacks, intrusive thoughts, the role that shame plays as a driver of many of our behaviours. Also, bloody important one, being able to forgive yourself. You know, I think we all need to attempt to do that in some vein, don't we? With whatever has gone on in the past or anything that's going on currently, it's a really important one. It is a packed one. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts.

3:25Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you.

4:03Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With Wix, you practically can.

4:38All right, gang, here we go. This is the show.

5:02Hi Millie. Nice to see you. Thank you for having me. So nice to see you. And congrats on your book. Great front cover by the way. Thank you. I came up with a title myself which I'm really pleased about because I think it just really sums up how I felt as a drinker. But also, you know, I think it's going to start conversations with people. Without a doubt. It's called Bad Drunk. And obviously we live in the UK, which has a really interesting culture when it comes to drinking. It's very much celebrated and hugely normalised. So I think it feels like a really maverick thing to do to write a book about drinking in this way.

5:38But I'm imagining it wasn't an easy book to write. it wasn't easy it was painful at times but I've I definitely felt all the way through that it was something I really wanted to do because I just get so many messages from women particularly in mums um who've seen me talk about my decision to stop drinking on Instagram and they all were asking for for advice and tips and I just wanted to do the book so that they would have you know something a way to a guide a guide to help them change their relationship with alcohol yeah so you've not had a drink since August 2022 yeah two and a half years it's amazing two and a half years yeah I actually messaged my sober coach telling him about the book and sometimes you kind of you just forget that like the milestones and I was like it's like it's gone so fast but best decision I ever made yeah and it's important I think to look back on that like two and a half years is a long time and to go yeah that's amazing that I've not done that the irony of today is I have got a slight hangover okay how how many drinks okay I just want to say a bit like I have zero I have zero judgment no I know you're not judging me I'm not even judging myself I had a fun time quite frankly I had a really good time it was great but I was like why today why today but I think it's such a worthwhile conversation to be having obviously sometimes the conversation around alcohol is taken in extremes we're talking about it when it's alcoholism and there's you know deep seated issues and it's a daily problem but I like the fact that you've written this book not necessarily from that standpoint you talk about drinking being destructive in your life and something that you knew you had an issue with but it but you don't or you wouldn't class yourself as an alcoholic yeah I hate that the the name alcoholic I think there is and I think there's so much stigma attached to just any kind of drinking problem but I yeah I didn't have the kind of dependency where I was drinking every day to get through the day I would get withdrawal from alcohol I would get very severe anxiety and I would then I would self-medicate by drinking more drinking again or with prescription pills to cope with how awful my hangovers were which was also just a very unhealthy toxic kind of cycle that I got into but admitting I actually had a problem was really hard for me for a long time because I felt that there was so much shame around it and also people kept saying to me oh you know you had too much to drink but you know you don't have a problem so people kept kind of saying to me oh come on you don't have a problem and then I started to think well if I did have a problem I would be judged so I felt like I just kept telling myself oh it's not that bad and over the years things would happen and I just I was like this isn't like that's not really that's not okay and I was kind of scaring myself and having but I'd have periods where I wouldn't drink at all maybe a month or six weeks and I'd feel really good so I kind of convinced myself I don't have a problem because I can stop but then when I went back the same things would always happen I'd always try and limit the amount I had and once I'd had you know two or three all my resolve would crumble and I never knew when the kind of responsible amount was like I just would have a couple and then just keep chasing the feeling it was giving me and be the person that just wanted the night to go on and on you didn't have an off button didn't have an off button if I had one I wanted 100 I always I've got friends like that who have not got off buttons and I've always looked at them and sort of thought I wish I was more like that I tend to have a couple of drinks and then I'm really tired and I just think I want to go to bed and then I end up calling the night quits way too early and everyone's like oh you missed so-and-so did this or like this was a really fun moment but I've got friends that have exactly the same thing there's there's no off button you're out you're having a great time and I guess when you look at whether other people are saying you've got a problem or not or what the definition is of a problem I think with anything whether it's alcohol or it could be anything that you you know is detrimental it's a problem if you say so if you know that your life could be better it could be anything yeah it could be anything but I don't think we should have these parameters that say if you're drinking x amount it's a problem it's if you feel that it's derailing you in life in some ways or you could be living in a better way then you decide whether it's a problem or not and you you had a specific moment you talk about in the book that was a bit of a wake-up call where you thought right I have pushed it too far enough's enough so just tell us about how how that happened and and in that moment what really got you rethinking about your drinking habits?

10:29In the last year before I decided to stop I had a couple of nights out a couple of situations where they were big warning signs one was actually two of them were weddings one was a hen often these occasions where the kind of drinking is kind of part of a big social gathering. The last one was at a wedding I was at with Hugo and I had planned to not drink very much, really kind of been like, okay, this is a really important wedding. It was one of Hugo's best friends. And I don't remember much after the champagne reception, like just it's all a blur, but it all just went a bit pitong I was crying I was angry I was just that kind of drunk person at the party that other people are trying to like get away from because I was just such a mess and it's it's really uncomfortable to think about myself at that wedding but it's also such a good reminder why I don't go back to drinking and a couple of days after that I had a big argument with Hugo at the wedding and the next day he said to me it had happened you know so many times he said like I'm really like done if this if this you know keeps happening it's going to end our marriage and he didn't give me an ultimatum of like if you ever drink again from today it's over he just said I can't keep going through this with you and I also knew that it was really damaging our relationship but it took me then about another five days and then I had my like last drink that basically happened after drinking with friends on holiday going to bed not super late not I wasn't particularly drunk that night but we would be now drinking a few nights in a row on holiday and I went to bed and I woke up the next morning we were staying on a boat and I woke up and felt very intense anxiety straight away but I wasn't able to tell if it was real or not like I felt I went straight to a panic attack and I felt like I couldn't breathe I felt like I couldn't get air and my throat felt like it was closing and I started to black out.

12:30I woke Hugo up and I started to black out. I was on the floor and I could see my children's faces and I really thought I wasn't aware I'm having a panic attack, I'm hungover, this is anxiety. It was like I was in the panic attack and thought I was about to die. And when I calmed down and later that morning I was really shaken up and I went for a hike with Hugo just to talk and I said I need to stop drinking and it was the scariest thing to say because I knew once I'd said it out loud I was going to have to stick to it and it felt so scary like I felt like my life I didn't know what my life was going to look like I didn't know how I was going to socialize how I was going to have fun I thought that was the only way I could have fun and And it was, yeah, I was terrified at that point, but I knew that was my rock bottom.

13:23Yeah. I guess also saying it out loud, you have to trust yourself that you're going to stick to it. And that always feels scary. You say something, you declare it out loud to the person you love the most. You've got to try and stick to it. And even knowing where to start, I think, is difficult. And like so many people, I'm sure, listening to this, and like you say, the disproportionate amount of mums that have reached out to you, because we're fed this sort of messaging that when you're a knackered mum you get to the end of the day you have a glass of wine it chills you out it relaxes you it takes the edge off all of this sort of stuff that we're really used to it's totally normalized no one would shame a mum for doing so but it can be damaging of course it can accentuate anxiety it can lead to drinking a lot more if you haven't got an off button or if that is your proclivity it's a really it's a tricky one to then change all of these ingrained habits.

14:15And like you say, having fun. I think that is one of the trickiest things is that I had a big period of sobriety in my 30s, not for any huge reason. I just thought I did a lot of drinking in my 20s and I thought I'm just going to see how I might socialise outside of that alcohol framework and what it's like to go to a gig, what it's like to go to a wedding. And it's really unnerving at first. And everyone's around you completely pissed and, you know, talking a million miles an hour and wanting to dance and you feel like you're a little bit out of the swing of things. How was that sort of first influx of social activity and having to put yourself in a social setting?

14:56It was hard at first. It really felt like my security blanket had been taken away and I had to kind of look at why I felt so uncomfortable and really realised that actually I'm quite introverted. But I thought I was an extrovert. So I was like, oh, but I love parties. and actually a lot of the things I thought were really fun, I realised without alcohol weren't fun for me. And I went to quite a few weddings and did not dance at all. They're so long. Why are weddings so long? Why? They're so long. But I gave myself permission to leave early. I'd make sure, you know, I saw the first dance, was there for like the important bits.

15:33And then you can sneak out. No one knows. I would sneak out. I've done so many ninja vanishes at weddings and no one knows. And they're like, did you see the band? Yep. Nope. So especially when you've got kids as well, it's easy. Just leave. You just got to go. You just got to go. So you've got new rules, I guess, for yourself as to how you will navigate a social setting. To just be kinder to myself. So number one is having a plan. Like, OK, how long do I need to be there? Just working out, OK, if I'm going to give myself an exit at 10 p.m., I know by then everyone's going to be quite drunk. I'm going to have a car booked.

16:06I know, OK, I'm going to be there for this amount of hours. who and then I'm like okay who am I gonna who who am I going with who can I sit with who can I kind of find that's going to be good company for me that's going to make it easier and whether it might be other people that don't drink or just somebody that I'm really close to and I'll just kind of have like a wingman and then bring my own drinks that I like to drink so my favorite non-alcoholic spirits or like trip or just to come I'll just bring things in my bag literally to show up show up yeah it's a great idea just literally go up to the barman and be like can you make this into some kind of mocktail for me and lots of people now are offering good alternatives okay no okay i'm gonna i've got something i like to drink and just giving myself permission to leave if it's too difficult yeah i don't find as much that i need to do that now i know if i get tempted to drink or i feel super triggered or i can either call one of my friends who's basically like my sponsor she's like one of my become one of my best friends and she's sober as well so we're like that person for each other could call my sober coach I could call my husband if he wasn't there with me I and I can just leave or if I just need to just regroup just go and shut myself in the bathroom and do some do some breathing um to ease kind of any anxiety that's coming up but it's got easier I don't feel now that it's a choice that I'm making I'm not thinking about it every day I'm not waking up and going I need to decide not to drink today it's just it's kind of become my lifestyle now.

17:36Is it still very much a day at a time because I think when you proclaim that you're never going to drink again that pressure can feel overwhelming for people and is probably the reason people then do start drinking again because they they say that and you you state at this at the right at the start of the book you say I can't promise I won't drink again and I felt reading that like you were saying it more for yourself than anyone because it's a huge ask to set yourself any goal for life it's insurmountable exactly and I I I do find it actually very helpful to say I don't drink and I and I choose to not you know just have be like I could just have one or you know I know other people that um are sober curious and don't drink but maybe once a year might have a glass of champagne but I now that I've learned so much more about myself and about my the way that I specifically react to alcohol I really have no no plan to to drink again but yes saying to myself who knows like hopefully life is long and you never know and I don't want to beat myself up if I do have a drink and then beat beat myself up and then get into a kind of shame spiral again because I think often people start a sobriety journey they're sober curious and after a month or two they get tempted they have a drink and then they think oh fuck it now I'm just gonna might as well just go straight back in and start drinking again and actually you can just look at it as if it made you feel bad and just go okay well that just showed me why I was doing it in the first place and just keep going yeah I think it's so important to talk about that moment of whether it's temptation or relapse with anything because it can be such a horrible stumbling block and reason to beat yourself up and really spiral into negative self-talk that isn't helpful at all.

19:30I remember I had, because I had eating disorders was bulimic and then I got really healthy and in a good space. Then I had a bulimia relapse. It was a one-off but it was really far down the line and I could feel myself thinking oh my god I'd done seven years by that point I'm fucked I've gone back to square one but actually I really did a lot of work to choose that moment to go it was a blip it doesn't mean anything it was a blip and it again proves that I don't want to go back to that I want to go back to feeling really really good and I think it's so important to remember that that it's not the end of everything it's just a little reminder that you don't want that anymore yeah it's really really important The market's uncertain.

20:14Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

20:55Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction. But there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. warning this product contains nicotine nicotine is an addictive chemical

21:16so let's let's rewind back because sorry i just like no no i jump about this is this my adhd is like babe i'm there i'm the tangents tangents galore and i like to jump about that's the whole point of it but i think it's really important in this context to also talk about how you came into our lives, which was, of course, Made in Chelsea. You were only 21. I actually hadn't realised how young you were. And it was a huge deal. It was a cultural shift where we were all of a sudden imbibing all of these, you know, reality TV shows that were so exciting and feeling like we knew everybody on the TV.

21:50And you guys were giving us a lot, you know, it was exposing for you and your life and your dynamics and people assuming that they know who you are. and I'm imagining if you're now actually identifying as a bit of an introvert that might have led to more social situations where you needed to take the edge off with drink or certainly the temptation was everywhere because you're being invited to the BAFTAs and all of these parties and you know you're 21 why are you going to say no? Exactly it was a time in my life and I was definitely already partying and drinking a lot anyway and then there was the anxiety that was already there that I'd carried through my teens and then I thought the show was going to give me some kind of validation.

22:31I didn't have the self-awareness to realise that's why I wanted to do it at the time. I was just like, oh, fuck it, why not? Like, this will be fun. And then my anxiety was, the more the show did well, the more successful the show was, the more my anxiety grew and then the more I was drinking to feel calm and then feeling awful the next day and it just was a cycle. yeah and you know it when you're 21 and you're going to all of these parties what I mean what 21 year old would say I don't want to go or I'm not going to have a drink like of course it was on a plate for all of you guys and I was you know in the same sort of boat at 21 you're just it's a free-for-all you're just going out and having a great time and it's celebrated and also when you're known as a bit of a party girl it's like oh she's so much fun what's she going to do tonight and there's almost a pressure yeah it's a performative element of it that millie's going to be on a table dancing at some point everybody get ready i really felt that i became this character that i told myself was part of my personality this was just me i was the wild the wild party girl the one that would have a funny story to tell the next day the one that would do something to get everyone laughing and it just wasn't me but i just kept wearing this mask and I kept yeah I kept going all the way through my 20s like that but then the difficult thing also after being on the show is being in the public eye basically growing up you know as my as an adult in the public eye and people with camera phones and then you've got added pressure and fear of oh my god I can't remember half of last night and did people take pictures what was I doing how did I get home terrifying who were those random people I was at an after party with like and you know they have phones and living in that fear of the constant constant fear of getting caught out and getting just getting pictured hammered which did happen to me a couple of times and the anxiety of that and then that leading to more drinking yeah it's a vicious circle I mean you talk about you say you call it your lowest public moment where you'd been to the Monaco at your winces I even say it we've all got them but the Monaco Grand Prix that you attended and that for you felt like a personal low point why because I just had no idea how bad it was like how wait I mean I was so wasted that I just couldn't comprehend like okay there's I just wasn't thinking I wasn't thinking logically or responsibly like you can't get that wasted and then be stumbling about at such a public event and not expect there to be pictures everywhere and I was going through a divorce and I was I was then with my now husband and there was a lot of press attention around that but all of that was creating a lot of anxiety and hence why I got so wasted because I can really look back and see a pattern the more anxious I was the more likely I was to go completely off the rails because I would just drink you know I was drinking more and more heavily to cope with those feelings and it was I was just full of nerves and then pouring you know fuel on the fire and it was I think it's so great that you talked about and I could tell from reading it that it wasn't a fun part of the book to write but I think it's one of the most important bits I think not only does it give all of us permission to look back on you know moments that felt mortifying to us disproportionately because other people would look and go and wouldn't judge you or would just think we've all been there or whatever but I think when it when you've got that level of mortification you feel humiliated about a moment I think it's so important to know that nearly all of us probably all of us if we're willing to admit it have been in a place where we felt like we've acted inauthentically or we've done something we regret or people have seen us acting in a way that we regret and for you to actually just put that in a book and you even say there's every chance that all of these pictures will now resurface and be at the top of the google search when they put your name in because you're talking about it but you're still willing to put that in there because you know it will help people and it will get people reflecting it's also my greatest reminder why i don't drink so if i remember like tempted just like just Google my name.

26:58Just be like, that's why. I'm like, my children are going to read this book and see those pictures. And that's going to make me have to have some very honest conversations with them. But I wish I'd read this book when I first stopped drinking. But I also really wish I'd had something like this I could have read as a young girl. Yeah, me too. Me too. I think, you know, I'm a bit older than you. but I think we grew up in an era where, I mean, my generation, we were drinking in parks. It was completely normal. You were drinking all sorts of mixed spirits from your parents' alcohol pubs. Oh, God, just taking a little bit from each bottle.

27:35Perno, no idea what that is. That's going in. Robinson's orange juice. Yeah, whack that on top. We were just disgusting concoction of stuff. But everybody did it. And again, as a teenager, there still is an immense amount of peer pressure that if your friends are all doing it, you should do it too. Come on, don't be boring. is probably when I stopped drinking actually in my 30s I remember someone saying to me at the Brits because I wouldn't have a drink oh my god don't be boring and it rang in my ears and I and I actually left because I just thought I can't deal with this anymore and it rang in my and I really at the time I wasn't probably as secure as I am now in who and who I believe I am but I thought god am I just so boring what's wrong with me and that is something you have to somehow negate when you choose not to drink you go out yeah it's tough I think there's less of that now yeah there is this sober curious movement and people are more and more young people are also choosing not to drink and there's a there's just this conversation that's starting to happen now but I still think that there are not there aren't enough kind of sober role models for people and what really helped me actually was looking at articles which were talking about sober celebrities like actresses that I looked up to I just remember thinking god they just must be so strong that they can you know just choose not to drink so I was so jealous and I thought okay that's interesting that it's making me jealous what is that showing me and I just I just thought I'm not enough like I'm not good enough to not drink like I don't have the strength or I don't have the kind of they might I just thought they must just have such you know so much confidence to not need alcohol not at all they've just made the choice yeah and then just when I realized I could make that choice for myself and it was as easy as just realizing I had the power and strength to say no it sounds like such a small insignificant thing but it didn't feel like I had the power for so long like alcohol had power over me I think most of us feel like that's certainly in social settings I think also when we root back to the sort of drinking culture here and certainly my generation your generation growing up where it was so normalized and celebrated as a teen.

29:47And maybe that is shifting slightly. But you had also that added burden of being bullied at school. So it became almost a crutch for you that you would drink to navigate these sorts of toxic dynamics that you found yourself in feeling like a bit of an outsider. And I think anything we've been through in childhood like that, you tend to bring it into adulthood, whether you like it or not. And even if you're around people that love you, you can still have the propensity to feel like I'm the outsider. I'm the one that doesn't fit in here. Does that ring true to you, would you say? Definitely. Yeah.

30:19Since I was at school feeling like I didn't fit in, feeling like an outsider, not feeling like I fit into the kind of groups of people and just not knowing myself. And then in my 20s, yeah, I'd say just being bullied really affected how I formed female friendships and trust issues and just not knowing myself. So the biggest gift really for me from my alcohol free journey has been the connection to myself and actually realizing I didn't love myself at all. And I thought I was into kind of wellness and doing all the wellness things before, but I hadn't really scratched the surface and done any of the work, deeper work on myself.

31:00I just wasn't willing to go there and look at all the uncomfortable, sticky stuff that was there. and now I've been able to kind of shine a light on the darkest parts of myself and bring them out into the light, put them in a book. She goes like, my husband's like, you've just got one really weird way of doing therapy. I love it. Don't talk to your parents, put it in a book. And then be like, read it. That's what I did. Read this, guys. This is why I'm so fucked up. Read this. No, it's a good way of doing it. It's airing all your laundry and it helps other people. It helps other people. What's so interesting is you say in the book, you assumed that once you stopped drinking, all your problems would go.

31:44But actually, and what you've just expressed here, is that when you stop drinking, you actually have the clarity to see them. Sometimes for the first time, what did surface with that clarity that you had not been looking at or were positively shunning because you didn't want to go there? I think one thing I was kind of oblivious to for a long time is that I was depressed and I was living with a high functioning depression. And when I read your book, Happy, it really spoke to me because I'd been putting on a mask for a long time and going to work and being like, I'm OK. I can get through the day.

32:18But as I was getting home and just like crying and, you know, just literally being so low when I was at home, didn't want to get out of bed, just lost interest in food. I became afraid of everything, insomnia, just really not well. and I just reached a point where I was sober but all the wellness things all the other things I was doing weren't working anymore and my anxiety had had I thought it had gone away when I stopped drinking for a couple of months I was like this is great like I've I'm healed alcohol was the problem removed the alcohol and I'm I've cracked the code and then suddenly the anxiety started of coming back really like strong I was like I don't like I don't I've done this amazing thing for myself like how can I be feeling this and then it was like because I can feel and I'm not numbing and that was really difficult and I actually ended up having a bit of a breakdown really that I kind of describe as a burnout moment where it actually happened at the BAFTAs last year I'd be I've been having panic attacks more and more frequently and I had a massive a panic attack at the BAFTAs and I just felt myself like break when I was literally trying to literally get out of the building to like not show anyone what was going on and I was visibly just like shaking and I got outside the building luckily there was no photographers because it was like the end of the evening and I've been holding it in like all day and I just was like hysterically sobbing and I knew from that moment I was like okay I'm gonna I'm gonna get help for this because I just can't keep going and I went on meds the next morning so I'd had some at home for a while and I didn't want to take them because I felt a lot of shame and stigma around needing meds and I'd had them sitting in my like top drawer for a couple of weeks and I was like okay now I'm like at a point where I just need I need to get out of this place that I'm in so I went on them and that was nearly a year ago and you still take them I still take them I think this is again fucking important because there is stigma around medication I felt it myself I haven't been on medication for a while but I took antidepressants for a fair few I don't know how to say six months to sort of get myself out of a very black hole about 12 years ago and I I could not function without them there's no way I could have turned up and done a live radio show, been seen in public.

34:49There's absolutely no way. And I think you've got to do what you've got to do to help you cope with the reality of stuff you're facing, maybe from the past or issues that you need to look at or just your general mental health. If you've got to do it, you've got to do it. And there should be zero shame attached that decision at all it's really given me the just it's given me my life back because I've been fighting this battle that nobody could see in my mind for so many years and it's really allowed me to do the work to do the cognitive therapy to do the EMDR to do all the like all the different types of therapy that have really helped me to find those trauma points and really go there and do the work to to let go and release and the books really brought a lot up but I've literally done two therapy sessions a week for a year I've been so focused on feeling well and I at some points thought can I do the book is this okay for my mental health and had to really like take a pause and be like is it's really thinking about everything I'm doing is that am I doing too much and sometimes pulling back a bit and and turning work down which can feel scary but I knew I couldn't get back to that point I was at like a year ago and I just feel really grateful that I've been able to accept that I needed meds I don't know how long I'll be on them but it's it's allowed me to do the deeper work I and I was so worried that if I if I was taking meds I wouldn't be able to feel and I wouldn't be if I couldn't feel I thought I can't access the emotions I need to heal stuff from the past.

36:28But actually, I've tried two different types now. And the ones I'm on, I think I've found a good balance. I can still cry. I don't cry as much. I used to cry a lot every day, which was part of the depression. And I just thought it was just hormonal or had just become normal for me. And I love crying, but I don't want to spend all my energy crying every single day. The odd weep is fine, but not all day. Not all day. when you think back over your life when do you I mean it's hard I've been asked this before and it's hard to pinpoint where where or when do you think all of this started depression anxiety how old do you know I think I went to boarding school when I was 10 and I think that definitely created some some issues feeling feelings of abandonment because we didn't have mobile phones we were very cut off and it was a couple of hours from maybe two hours from where my parents lived you didn't wasn't weekly boarding so you know I loved it you could ride horses every day you ride ponies every day and it was this side in this beautiful bit of the countryside in Dorset but it was I was 10 and I couldn't call my parents I could only speak to them once a week and we literally wrote letters and I was I remember the first few months six months maybe feeling really alone and really scared and and that really stayed with me and I'm being bullied from about the age of 12, 13.

37:50And then at 14, I mentioned this in the book, I experienced sexual assault when I was really drunk, the first time I got kind of wasted, the first time I passed out from drinking. And I think that really got me off on the wrong foot with alcohol because I kept repeating the same behavior I would drink to kind of forget the shame and carrying that shame on top of the kind of self-esteem damage that I had from the bullying meant that I was I was fragile and also depression I think was from the bullying as well and I did get diagnosed when I was about 16 but I didn't want help at that age I just I was I just felt angry at all adults and anyone basically trying to help me I just was I just was like no I need to I felt very alone and like I just needed to try and fix it within myself but it took me a long time to be ready to actually you know get help I think especially when it comes to sexual assault and shame which is the worst feeling ever the worst I've had huge bouts of shame and it's so debilitating yeah yeah it's all here and I get it here and then I get these tingly pins needles on the top of my head when I'm in that you know I could almost bring it on just thinking about it it's the worst worst feeling and the only way I think you know having been lucky enough to do therapy myself I think you do realize the only way to take the sting out of it is to look at that thing that's caused you the shame I mean you've beautifully written about this and put it out there for everybody to actually look at it and also especially when it comes to sexual assault to go this you didn't do anything wrong like this was this is not about you in this situation you were a victim of something rather than I shouldn't I shouldn't be ashamed that that happened to me and having these conversations in safe spaces is how I can let go and also let other people know that they can let go of that shame And I carried it with me for so long because I really believed it was my fault because I had got that drunk.

40:11And I told myself I was just that kind of girl, that that kind of thing happened to you. And it wasn't the first, the only time it happened to me because I had such low self-esteem and I had no regard for my health and safety. I just, you know, feel very lucky, honestly, that like nothing worse happened over the years. but I definitely put myself in a lot more dangerous situations and was just not being at all responsible with my health. It's often like how these things do repeat. But I think I was listening to a Bene Brown podcast and she was talking about how if you can't hear me, you can't see me.

40:57And that really resonated with me. so like being I'm feeling right now like I'm like my mid-30s I've had my daughters I've learned so much about myself and I and I want to be my most authentic self and it's like okay so I've got to really like share everything and maybe I'm sure not everyone feels like they need to go and write a book and share all their like deepest darker secrets but it's very freeing it's so freeing and then it makes you feel less terrified of those things that you've trapped in a little box over here that you don't want to look at because you're talking about them they they can't get you anymore they can't hurt you it's when they're your secrets and you're like I've got to keep them hidden and not think about it and it's like you can just let them let them out the box let them go yeah and then you are completely yourself without having to filter and pretend but I think the biggest shift can only really happen especially in the context of self-destructive behavior when you value yourself and it's really hard to go from not giving a shit about yourself to valuing yourself I've been through that experience I'm still on that path now and we'll have days where I don't value myself or can easily spiral into self-loathing and have to give myself a good talking to or talk to someone that I know does care about me or wants to help me feel good about myself.

42:21But it's a really tricky shift. What do you think the starting point was? Obviously sobriety, but what other mental shifts took place for you to start actually caring about yourself? I would say having my children and seeing myself as a mother and seeing my children and wanting to be the best person I could be for them and wanting them to grow up with a mother that was going to be present that wasn't going to be hung over every weekend, that wasn't going to be so anxious that she couldn't communicate properly with them. I didn't want them to grow up and be influenced by having a mother with a drinking problem that was, you know, checked out half the time.

43:05Or I remember one time I had to, like, look after the kids by myself all day and I was taking a Xanax just to be able to cope with the level of anxiety I had from the alcohol that I'd drunk the night before. and I was like this is just this is not okay I don't want to be just so numb I don't want to miss this this is their childhood and it was it was stealing joy yeah I think seeing myself become a mother and wanting to really just to show up and ultimately through this process of healing through since I've the journey I've been on with healing since I've been sober I've started to learn how to reparent myself and how to imagine myself as as the girls like as the age of I'm cuddling them kind of imagine I imagine sometimes that I'm giving myself a hug and it's like me as a child and my older daughter looks identical to me as as I did as a child so that is quite funny sometimes I just imagine like I'm saying what would I say to myself and that kind of inner child work has really helped oh my god it's so important we've actually just done a podcast this morning where we did a deep dive into all of this, looking at who we were as kids, what was said to us as kids and how we can now parent that part of ourselves that we've abandoned, that we've shoved in a box, that we don't want to look at.

44:24And it is such a healthy thing to do and an amazing way to change how you think about yourself and how you move through the world. It's so, so important. I mean, you say in the book the most uncomfortable part was talking about Xanax Xanax and the fact that you had this dependency and it went hand in hand with alcohol, counterbalanced the anxiety you felt, but then it wouldn't stop you drinking again, maybe that day or that evening. Have you made peace with the fact that you had a problem with it? Yes, but I think maybe people don't care as much as I thought they would. I think sometimes in your mind, in our minds, we can think, oh God, if people found that out, it would be like the worst thing ever but it is a lot you know a lot of people do use it obviously as a prescribed medicine but and it's it's very addictive and the more you take it the more you want to take the more the more your brain wants it and then you need the same amount doesn't work for you anymore and it was again readily available prescribed by a doctor I started taking it for anxiety and then dangerously slipped into sometimes mixing it with alcohol or taking it to cope with my hangover and then suddenly my hangover was gone and then I could drink again.

45:40So it was a really vicious cycle. And over the years, it slipped from being occasional use to, it wasn't, you know, every day, but it was every, by the end, it was definitely every couple of days. And I was just, I was just completely glazed over. I look back at pictures of myself and it's like my eyes are just, like I'm just not there. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you can now look back at that version of yourself with deep compassion and think fuck I was struggling I was coping the best way I can do you feel like you can forgive yourself for the things that you deem are mistakes or the moments that you do feel shame or regret over yes and I think that it's really important to forgive yourself and through the process of understanding more about myself why how my past traumas have led me to act in a certain way um how my adhd has even um led me to act in certain ways because my brain has been seeking the dopamine and it makes you much more likely to um abuse an addictive substance so that's really allowed me to be a lot kinder to myself as well it kind of explains maybe why i felt like more of an outsider when i was younger struggled struggled a lot at school and i mean that's a new uh diagnosis isn't it i've had that in the last year yeah i mean it's brilliant that we're talking about this now because i mean we've done a couple of episodes on adhd with either people that are experts in it or that have adhd and when we were kids it wasn't talked about you know you were either the daydreamer i said i was i was told i was that all my reports that i was always daydreaming daydreamer talks too much it was like literally that was my school report just relentlessly or if you were a boy at school you were disruptive you'd fidget too much and and that was the end of it and you were just sort of cast aside as a slight problem in the classroom or sent out quite regularly as I was um but now we're talking about it and there is an actual understanding of it and you can look back on not only your childhood but how how you seek dopamine now or how you move through the world now and actually all you were doing was trying to cope the whole time with with a brain that works in a slightly different way to you know typical brains it's just like having so many different thoughts at the same time and just the alcohol you know have a couple of drinks would just turn down the noise and I can completely understand now why I felt that I needed to do that and actually since January I've been doing no sugar because I've been listening to lots of podcasts about how you can you know manage your ADHD through kind of diet and what you eat and thought through lots of other like lifestyle tweaks that you can make and has it helped yeah it's really helped yeah we had this amazing um I think she's classified as a naturopath and nutritionist called Lucinda Miller and she talked on here all about sugar and ADHD it was probably more directed towards parents and kids but she has adhd so she's learned how to eat well herself and maintain a much more balanced thought process throughout the day by one of them eliminating sugar which is not an easy thing to do by the way yeah i'm trying to do it with my kids as well i made them i made them these like cupcakes this week and they just refused like no sugar they refused to eat them this is what the whole time i'm trying to make healthy snacks and they're like I'm not eating it and you've just wasted two hours googling something and making it and they're like that tastes like shit I'm not eating I'm just gonna keep trying keep trying we can only try the effort the effort is there so how obviously no sugar you're not drinking in terms of ADHD is there any other changes you've made that you know help you navigate situations that might make you feel like your brain's racing that you're slightly out of control what what helps exercise is a big one and exercise but like first thing in the morning getting out in daylight and getting that like natural light really helps and I like I like running I find that really helps particularly with my thought process if I've got something where I really need to focus if I go for it like a half an hour run just like a jog not super fast I've suddenly got so much so many like productive thoughts I can just sit down and get loads done yeah and have that clarity to have that clarity trying to get it's like all the stuff that just helps with mental health anyway like trying to get enough sleep I find just having a routine it really works for me over the Christmas holidays I didn't have my usual routine and I've just really struggled actually oh my god same it's like what day I think all parents it's like my kids are staying up too late they're on screens all the time it's just getting back to school yeah the market's uncertain Revenues tied and hiring on hold.

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52:03You talk about intrusive thoughts in the book too, and this is something that many people who will have stopped drinking, especially in social situations, will find very hard to navigate. When you've got intrusive thoughts, I mean, I have OCD, so when my intrusive thoughts are bad, and mine isn't relentless all day long, all the time but if I'm really stressed out something's bothering me the intrusive thought part of OCD can be completely overwhelming where it's just it's non-stop and if I get into a little negative thought loop and there's this one thought that will not leave my head I literally feel like I'm losing my mind I don't know what to do and I think when it's a very specific flavour of intrusive thought like alcohol and you're out and you're in a bar or you're at a party and there's a barman stood with a tray of drinks how the hell do you not pick up that drink because those intrusive thoughts are so loud what are you doing in those situations i think the best thing you can do is distraction because your brain is is like focused on that one thought so you need to like change your environment so like i also find moving really helpful but i if you are in a bar and having really struggling with that thought i would say leave put yourself first it's not you're not selfish whoever you're with will have to understand that you're it's for your own it's for your health and that you're you've got to stick to your decisions so I'd say just get yourself out of the situation um call a friend um I've made myself watch uh like I think it was selling sunset or something just just to like just take my brain just just take my brain somewhere else um reach out to somebody that has been supportive on that journey be my sober coach or sober friend just be like oh god I'm having these thoughts just verbalize it just say it out loud because then it also takes it out of your head and you're able to go all like like like if you feel like you could journal in that moment it's very hard to maybe sit and meditate but do something that changes your environment listen to music that you know the words to and just like sing along yeah I think it's really good just to say out loud like I'm leaving I'm out if you can't cope with it you shouldn't have to sit there and suffer and deal with it and have that all going on in your head just walk out if it's a great friend they'll they'll totally get it um You've mentioned a couple of times your sober coach.

54:19For anyone that doesn't know what that consists of, how you might work with one, what do they do? So it's like a therapist who specifically works on helping you understand your relationship with any addictive substance or any. I guess it's not just always a substance. Sometimes it's gambling or sex or food. and he was someone I'd actually seen before I tried to stop drinking about before I had kids and after about a month I'd convinced myself that I could I could now drink responsibly and obviously it didn't last but I went back to him actually and I said I'm serious this time and I saw him every week um either online or um just over zoom and he really explained to me you know it's not removing the the first thing you're doing is removing the drink and not going you know every day being like okay I'm not going to drink but then it's like why do you want to drink and what's coming up and what are all your deep-rooted issues and really having to go into childhood stuff and all the places I didn't want to look and it took me a good few sessions before I had a breakthrough I was like oh why does he keep going there there's nothing there like yeah and then had a great childhood everything was fine no problems there and then they like crack you open and you're like whoa yeah and that's confronting I mean this is the thing it's not it's not about being disciplined I think most people assume that with any breaking any detrimental habit it's all they're just more disciplined than me I don't think many of us are naturally disciplined I think it's a really hard thing to land on that you are just this regimented disciplined person it's actually the willingness to look at the why why am I doing this what what is the cause of it and that's not easy you know it's hard work it's hard to delve into the past and look at things that make you feel deeply uncomfortable and make you squirm or you just flat refuse to go there but it is a much more solid route to breaking a habit because you you understand it yeah and he was very straight talking and he didn't sugarcoat things and that and I really needed that directness and that I found the right person for me I think with any kind of therapy relationship it's got to be the right the right person for you but there are like loads of places people can look for support whether it's online or in person they want like a more of a group element where you've got that kind of group sharing there's there's lots of sober coaches that offer courses as well um I've got a friend who's in AA and I'm actually really interested in in doing the 12 steps we talk about step work quite a lot and actually we're going to do sort of 12 steps together over the next year and do them just the two of us it's a really great modality for anything even outside of alcohol just like self-examination and creating inventories about people and places and things it's it's really really cool obviously in the book and you've mentioned here today your husband Hugo and his role in your life as your partner and your best friend and someone that massively looks out for you.

57:33I think there'll be many people listening to this that will be the Hugo in the situation that has deep worries about the person they're married to or they're best friends with or their brother or sister to, whatever. And they want that person to make positive changes, but they're not. And I'm sure you'll recognise that breaking any habit, You know, I can look back at when I had bulimia and people were worried about me or I knew that what I was doing was a terrible, terrible idea. But until I was ready and I don't even know why I got to that place, but until I was ready, I couldn't do a thing. There was there.

58:08I had good intent, but it would never happen. You've got to be ready. But what advice would you give or what would you say to somebody in Hugo's position where they care so deeply about someone and they want them to get better and to make changes? but you're kind of out of control. What was helpful to you in those moments when Hugo was sort of talking to you? Just being able to hold space for somebody and really allowing the space to have those difficult conversations and to really understand what's coming up for them. You know, we're just very real with each other now. I can tell him my weird, intrusive thoughts.

58:49We, to be honest, I realized after I had kids and we didn't have a deeper connection because at the age when we first met each other, I was actually 16 when I first met him. And even when we got back together after I was divorced, we just, you know, we fancied each other. We loved each other, but we didn't really like connect on a deeper level. It was still very much all just like we were attracted to each other. We just knew that we wanted to be together. but it wasn't until more I was on my own sobriety journey that I started to be like we actually don't know each other on a deeper level and we both did when yeah our marriage was really not in a good place um not just after I stopped drinking but I'd say even a year in I was just having a hard time myself mentally when I started to feel better in myself I could also do more work on the relationship and kind of just I feel like we've just been able to meet each other more in the same place and he he knows me better than anyone I think he's just been he's been really understanding about the I had to own up to we did couples therapy and I really had to own up to the harm that I'd caused him in the relationship through my drinking and the horrible things I'd said to him I turned into quite a mean drunk in the last couple of years of drinking which I I do feel horrible about that.

1:00:16And I think we've resolved the issues now, but we weren't dealing with our issues and that was another reason. I think I would just drink and not talk about it, but then it would all come out in the wrong way when I was drunk. Yeah, and how brilliant you can sit and say that. We've all said massively fucked up things to people, all of us. And we've done things that are regrettable or have felt not very nice. And I think it's bizarre when we pretend otherwise that and that's, I guess, when we start judging other people and going, you're this, you're that. And we're not looking at our own mistakes that we've all made and how healthy that you can talk to him about that really openly.

1:00:57And it's actually brought so much more of a deeper connection between you both and a stronger marriage out of it. And again, you know, you talk about this in the books. There'll be people at home now listening, thinking, well, I want to stop drinking, but my partner still drinks. And Hugo does drink, but you navigate that pretty well. I don't have an issue with him drinking. I'd say he definitely drinks less. He's doing dry jan at the moment and he can do a month without drinking. And he always feels really good and does it a couple of times a year. But he doesn't drink a lot at home. he goes out occasionally like lots of his friends now have had have young kids as well or having babies that's gonna slow things down in the drink department so yeah and sometimes you know he might have a glass of wine at home but I don't have any issue being around alcohol I'm not it doesn't tempt me if there's alcohol in the house I probably wouldn't want to go on a night out with him when he was gonna get super drunk but that's actually pretty rare now anyway but if he was gonna do that would probably be letting off some steam with a couple of his guy mates and they probably get in at like you probably get in at like 1am yeah it's it's we've all changed quite quite a lot with age and experience but I you know if he is out and he's hung over in the morning on the weekend I enjoy getting up early with with with the girls and having that time just us yeah anyway nice I mean this will I'm sure your answers will be unsurprising because we can all imagine what sobriety brings but what do you think the benefits to living a sober life are for you the benefits are it's like the clarity knowing I'm not going to wake up with a hangover tomorrow whereas before it was like oh well I'm gonna go for dinner later and maybe I'll have one drink and who knows like that night I could end up being out to like you know 3 a.m and then whatever I had planned the next day would be very difficult to to get through and I'd be a complete mess and it was just this kind of roller coaster and now it's like just I found a lot more balance my nervous system is a lot more balanced thank god and I just I value the small things a lot more um more present I'm still working on that because I am very good at being very busy all the time and focusing on embracing slowness really getting to know myself enjoying time on my own that's something that I've really a real gift I realize like how much I actually just love being alone oh me too but you used to actively hate that yeah I used to hate being I didn't want to be alone with my thoughts at all now I know I actually would like I do have spending a weekend on my own it's like oh my god literally heaven heaven I can't think of anything better than Just being on my own.

1:03:45Yeah, just like in my house. So like maybe just with my dog. Just like, just. Yeah, he loves me and he's not going to say anything to you. He's not going to ask me to do anything. It's great. Also, parenting is really challenging. It's full on. It's really full on. And I was being quite reactive as a parent. And then after being like, I don't want a parent like that. Why am I, why do I go to that place? And kids are triggering me. And oh my God, I'm being shouty. and afterwards just really hating how I'd responded to them. And sometimes that does still happen. Of course. It's hard. But I'm able, I think, to be a more conscious parent.

1:04:28Yeah. I mean, the benefits are endless, and you've beautifully illustrated these in your book, that by going completely sober or having moments of sobriety, especially if you know it's a problem for you, are only going to bring you brilliant benefits, But it's not a smooth journey to get there. I think it's so important that you outline the book and we've chatted today about the fact that it's confronting. You need to look at your past. You need to have a well, you're going to have clarity whether you like it or not about stuff that you don't want to look at. But it all takes you to a place of feeling better, which does lead me to my last question, which is, Millie, where is your happy place?

1:05:05my happy place is on a beach in the Maldives with my family can we just go now um get me there now oh whenever I'm stressed I go to my happy place I'm sat I'm sat on the beach I'm looking out at the ocean and I've the kids are like playing next to me Hugo's there the sun shining just the sound under the waves just me my family just paradise like I go there in my mind all the time yeah that's a lovely happy place I love it well look thank you so much I think this has just been an amazingly honest frank and important conversation and I urge anyone who feels this chat resonates to go and get your brilliant book bad drunk because it's an important read thank you so much Millie oh thank you for having me oh thanks Millie really bloody loved that really loved it just thought it was really important to chat about alcohol in that way in a way where you just know that you're in a bit of a cycle and a bad habit and life could be better without it and I also do you know what I was really grateful for Millie's frank honesty and the fact that even you know she says in the book she can't promise to never drink again but each day that she's living today.

1:06:24She has no desire and that's a really important shift, I think. That was great. Loved it. Bad Drunk is out right now. While you're here, let me tell you about another book. It's our Happy Place Book Club read for Feb and it's called So Thrilled for You. Oh, it's so fun. It's written by Holly Bourne and I think this one is going to resonate for many, many of you listeners, especially the female ones. This is the plot. Nikki, Lawrence, Charlotte and Steffi have been friends since university. Now in their 30s, life is pulling them in different directions, but the girls are reunited when Charlotte organises the baby shower from hell for pregnant Nikki.

1:07:03Tensions are going to be high as these women are forced to confront their own and each other's views about motherhood. Now, if I've whetted your appetite enough with that little teaser, do come and join us on Instagram at happyplacebookclub. That's when we talk about books and this book specifically and there'll be loads of cool behind the scenes content holly will be joining me on the podcast as well to talk about the book this brilliant book she's written in a few weeks so do keep an eye on your feed for that one right i'm back here next week but in the meantime a huge thanks again to millie to the producer anushka tate at happy play studios and you you gorgeous lot

1:07:53Thank you.

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