Miquita Oliver: "I thought I hated you Fearne, I was actually scared!" Debunking female rivalry

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello, how are you lovely lot doing? A massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fearne Cotton. Today, let's go back to this summer's Happy Place Festival. I'm chatting to Miquita Oliver. I was terrified of Fearne. I thought that Fearne was everything a TV presenter should be. You're very beautiful with blonde hair and you're very slim. And I felt very black and overweight and that my hair wasn't right. and then the press sort of compounded that fact. So I was like, oh, I hate Fern Cotton. It's Fern Cotton that I don't like because I was scared. The whole thing made me fearful and that's me going to that deep, darker place of why.

0:42Why did I feel like that? And then I had this like fucking revelation and I was like, oh my God, it was the press's fault.

0:49Fearne Cotton: Crikey, where do I begin with this podcast? This podcast, right? I feel so lucky. I've been doing this podcast for nearly nine years and there have been plenty of moments where I've felt like an episode has changed me in some way. I've left it learning something. I've left it feeling better about myself. I've left it carrying less shame, like whatever it might be. But this one, this one was truly healing. That could sound like really cringy, but I mean it in like the truest, truest sense. So the backstory, and we go into it a little bit, but for anyone that doesn't know the backstory, me and Makita have been orbiting each other since like the late 90s.

1:32Fearne Cotton: When I started in TV in about 97, I think she was like the year or a couple of years after. And we're both young, up and coming presenters, often at the same events. Often we'd, you know, be it, I don't know what it would be like, the MTV Awards or whatever, be it all at the Brits. we'd sort of see each other from across the room but we gave each other a wide berth and I was aware that I was often the brunt of jokes on Pop World which I felt not even upset about I was embarrassed I thought oh god I'm so uncool that's why this is happening and also Makita said something in an interview about me which I'll fess up I hadn't read what the wording was until the week before the pod I thought I better look just to see why she got sacked from the BBC and she called me a devil woman which I actually think is hilarious because it's quite a nebulous term it's not like she was saying she's a thick blonde knobhead like it was it was nebulous enough for me to like not take offense now and also I hold no grudge and this is certainly not an exercise in me highlighting these flaws on stage with Makita so that she has to repent her sins.

2:45Fearne Cotton: I don't need her to do that. I've fucked up many times in my own career. I've been mean to people. We all have. All of us have been shitty to other people. But what this did, this episode, was allow us to bridge this huge gap that had been created because we massively misunderstood each other. So I went through all of those years. I mean, obviously not constantly. It wasn't like I was thinking about this every day. But I went through many of those years feeling like uncool, a nerd, too enthusiastic and not in the cool gang. And Makita didn't think of me in that way. She saw me as something entirely different, which you'll hear in a moment, which was why we were able to bridge this gap.

3:28Fearne Cotton: So last year, Makita put out a video on Instagram saying that she had had a lot of shit from the press back in the day and it had made her really embody the words the press were using to describe her. And I felt so sad watching that because I thought I felt exactly the same. I've been called every name under the sun by journalists. Everything from, you know, like unsophisticated to journalists wishing my death. And I don't mean that in a kind of frivolous way, like literally journalists saying they wish I was dead. And as a young person, it's really hard to just let that be water for ducks back.

4:05Fearne Cotton: I, for years, took it on board and felt like a piece of shit, if I'm really honest with you, to the point where I sort of stopped doing telly. So I sent a true heartfelt response to her video, to her via DM. And I just said, I'm so grateful for you putting that video out there because I feel exactly the same as you that it's impacted me so hugely and it's something I still have to go to therapy about and unpick all the time and it affects me outside of work in just like how I move through the world and it was maybe a bit risky sending that message because she could have just gone she could have ignored me I would have felt even more of a loser maybe I don't know but I thought it was worth the risk but she got back to me and she said thank you so much for sending that message that means a lot and I was like oh my god this is the start of like us repairing all of it.

4:54Fearne Cotton: So then she did an episode of Miss Me. And in that episode, she talked about all of it and that she had talked about the shame she felt around it in therapy. And she cried and I was so moved by her honesty and her willingness to be very real about it. So I was like, let's do a podcast. Let's get her on and let's fucking chat about all this. And I don't want to spoil anything for you listening to this episode, but I've got goosebumps thinking about it. It was so fucking great. And hey, look, this is a much longer intro than I'd normally do, but I need to explain explicitly the backstory for you to understand how powerful this experience was for both of us.

5:42Fearne Cotton: So sit back and enjoy.

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7:23Fearne Cotton: Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

7:46Hi, Happy Place. Hi, how are we doing? We're good. Everyone's so good. Everyone's so happy. Everyone is happy. Imagine if everyone was in a really bad mood at Happy Place.

7:57Fearne Cotton: It just would not work. It wouldn't, but also I'd kind of be here for it. Like, turn up as you are. If you feel a bit shit, absolutely fine. So, look, I am so happy to not only do this, but just before we came out, We had a chat just in our little backstage tent area. And it's actually the first time we've properly spoken in real life. Yeah. Like it's weird. You can do swearing. You can do swearing. No, you're right. It is. It doesn't feel like it. Because I watch Miss Me. I love you and Jordan. So part of me feels like, you know, when you watch a podcast, something you love, you feel like, oh, yeah, I hang out with this person.

8:35Fearne Cotton: We've actually never. I think we've got to do it. Yeah. We've actually never really spoken. No, but that's so insane. Because of the whole journey we've had. Because both Fern and I started presenting when we were teenagers. Too young. Yeah, exactly. Thank God it didn't ruin us. And I think that's why I was always very aware of you. Because we were both so young in this strange world, right? And I think even then, I thought we hung out all the time. But even then, really, we just were on TV shows at the same time. So you're inhabiting the same world. We were in, we were orbiting each other constantly.

9:09Fearne Cotton: Yeah, orbiting. And sometimes really closely. Yeah. Which period are you talking about? Just probably when I was like dating one of your friends. Yeah. We were in the same room a lot. Yeah. She started dating Steve from T4. Everyone wanted him. Well done, fuck. And no, it was like his heyday. It was like. His heyday? It was a big time for Steve Jones. Whoa. And yeah, suddenly we were like, oh, this is how we hang out. I was as surprised as you were. Really strange combo of people. Of course, Steve Wright. I know. But we, I don't know how much you guys know, but me and Makita have like a really weird history.

9:50Fearne Cotton: Yeah, very real. Because of I think our jobs, but also how society pits women against each other. So if we go right back to the start, we both started when I was 16, you were 17 when you started Pop World. we're in a really weird job for starters where you become instantly exposed to lots of people that don't know you and I think it takes a very resilient mind to not be impacted by it I know I was impacted by it negatively in all different ways and I wonder what that felt like for you well this is the great thing about being in your 40s I don't know whether anyone else in their 40s feels this or you fun but like I started getting curious about why so instead of like I did this or this happened I started going what's the why of that thing right and my relationship with you came up because you'd messaged me last year and I and and again we probably hadn't even messaged or anything for 10 or 15 years or maybe even ever ever what we're talking about but I thought we had this relationship but really it was this relationship that i sort of built in my head because of the press at the time and we have to remember this is early noughties press who were uh vile vile ruthless uh i would say kind of violent actually yeah with the language they used about us and and women in the media at that time and i was terrified of fern i thought that Fern was everything a TV presenter should be and how you looked.

11:25You're very beautiful with blonde hair and you're very slim. And I felt very black and overweight and that my hair wasn't right. And then the press sort of compounded that fact. So I was like, oh, I hate Fern Cotton. It's Fern Cotton that I don't like because I was scared. The whole thing made me fearful. And that's me going to that deep, darker place of why. Why did I feel like that? And then I had this like fucking revelation. I was like, oh my God, it was the press's fault. It was the son's fault. It wasn't our fault. No. Bastards. No. And then, and I sort of had that. And then you messaged me last year.

12:01So I think the world was sort of bringing us together in my head back together, but actually really together for the first time. And Fern sent me a message last year when I was in hell because I was, I'd lost my flat because of very external circumstances. So I was living on my mum's sofa, feeling like a failure, even though I was probably at the height of my career. And you sent me a message about a clip and I was like, oh, hi. And I really needed to hear what you said. And I really felt lifted from it.

12:30Fearne Cotton: Well, what you said was very impactful. So you put this video out saying how the press had said certain things about you. And then you start to kind of embody what you read about yourself. Totally. And this is the really interesting thing. And I think this applies to so many women. It's not this is not just a conversation about women who happen to have these weird jobs in the public eye. It's women and friendships and dynamics is that there's this void between two people with zero communication. And all it is is assumption and a projection about who the other person is. So in my eyes, you were the coolest person out there in the cool gang and you hang out with the cool people.

13:11Fearne Cotton: and I'm a nerdy, I've done kids TV where I'm like, hey, I'm wearing bunches and I talk about, you know, I just felt like the biggest geek ever. And you're hanging out with Lily Allen and all the cool guys and I'm just this absolute loser. Isn't that funny? But there's this big void. No, and also like we were just chatting back there about we've both got obviously interesting relationships with the TV industry and how we've navigated it. And I was telling you back there that I've been sacked, I don't know how many times, three, four, could be five times from jobs. Often with no explanation or even sometimes I wasn't told.

13:49Fearne Cotton: I'd put the telly on and go, oh, I guess I'm not doing that anymore. Wow. Someone else doing it. Okay, that's interesting. Don't tell me. I had no idea that you'd ever experience anything by being fired. Yeah, and this is the void, like this void where we don't know and we make all these assumptions. Like to me, you're just cool, full stop. And I'm stupid, a bit thick, not sophisticated, a nerd. and then I'm something else. Yeah, to me you were successful, unsackable and like threateningly good. Like it's so weird what a bit of conversation does, where it can get you, what freedom it brings. But also like for us, that was decades.

14:27I know.

14:28Fearne Cotton: Like decades. And it's weird how it can just keep going and neither person knows why or what the beef is or what the reasons are. It's just all based on what our assumptions are of the other person. And I think that's where just being so honest is so healing. And maybe you do have to get a bit older to get to that like scary honesty. Yeah. The honesty that shakes you and freaks you out. You know, what happened when I spoke about my relationship with Fern and our history, then the clip went, I refuse to say went viral. It sounds so cheesy. It did very well. Yes. And what was great for me was that the response was not about, oh, it's nice that these two women, as you were saying in the media have managed to like reunite no no no it was a conversation with loads of other women talking about their relationship with the other women in their life and external circumstances changing those relationships and as you said creating these voids where assumption fills and then we're coming we're approaching each other with fear and threat and anger completely like when i saw that video that you put out i felt nothing but like a connection with you because there's very few people who I could probably go oh my god like how awful that feels to have the press say you're this you're which we've all had I've absolutely had it and for different reasons but I've had all the horrible things written about me and because that's what you said in your message and I couldn't believe it I was like oh my god no no no no no no no no no and I think it's um it's a weird thing to go through because they're usually like older male journalists that are writing things and it sticks with you like do you i i can remember verbatim lines that people have written about god yeah lily got married and i was her bridesmaid and the title was my big fat ugly bridesmaid because my big fat great wedding had come out and i was like i've shamed lily at her wedding i've i've been her fat ugly friend on a day where everything should look perfect and i didn't even look that bad they just had decided that's what I was to her this sort of ugly fat sidekick and it was devastating that that line haunts me still yeah isn't that oh my god I have the same I live in you these they live they live in you I remember reading once I had done a tv show about like breaking Guinness World Records whatever like in my 20s and we had had to do a bungee jump challenge and the journalist had written it's a shame that the rope hadn't snapped and I was like that and that's like 20 years ago and I still remember reading it and weird it's weird how we internalize it we don't go god that's really awful that person felt they could write that we go I'm all I'm dreadful I'm that bad on the telly that someone wants me dead and and I think there was no escape from that that era of journalism where we turned on ourselves and therefore we turned on each other because we didn't know what else to do absolutely and it's that that was that was the great thing about this this year of kind of you and I coming together and discussing what had happened because I suddenly felt like I thought I'd let go of it all and it's good to go oh no it still lives with me you almost like have to admit that that that stuff lives with you because some of that shit has driven me to do more and do better for me for those idiots and own shit like you know this this whole empire of happy place i saw you do that i saw you have a podcast i saw you quickly turn it into books as well i saw you build the festival around it i saw you building a world and a business when we both knew that tv was getting more dangerous and you couldn't rely on it and now i know that you were being fired from jobs which i had no idea about i thought i was the fireable one and and it really is it's like as women in their 40s now i've had to diversify and decide what I actually want to do and it turns out it was reinventing the skipping rope but that was but that is what it is yeah and I'm so happy that I had that time away yeah to come back stronger better brighter like walking taller thinking better thoughts for myself wanting to give people things and be of service that's what we were saying as well backstage it was like that clip it felt and you and I having these discussions I felt like we were in service a bit and that feels different.

18:47Feels good. Feels good. I still believe we were in service when we were doing bloody Tom and Pop, Pop World. We're trying to make people happy. That was a service of its kind. I know how many hangovers I helped. So don't even try and pretend we didn't cure hangovers.

19:03Fearne Cotton: I mean, you're so right and I think I know which bits of it drive me still today. We all have our own little insecurities and mine will probably always be like, not smart enough, didn't go to uni, must read more books, must show up as someone that is intelligent and some of that can drive you brilliantly but some of it you know I'm 45 and I still have loads of insecurities that I'm like right just go and take yourself away for a minute and think about this like is this true is this real what do you truly believe about yourself what's your version of that yesterday I had to do an eight hour walk yesterday after my friend's baby shower because I was like I am around so many people every day my job is so public facing I reveal myself every week i actually need to hear nothing and speak to no one and keep walking and i walked from like labrack grove to like hampstead to kennis town to just all around london and i was like i really needed that and i thought i'm in quite a good place at the moment that doesn't mean you don't need an eight hour walk in silence with yourself sometimes yeah and it felt really fucking good yeah really good and it's good that i know when i need that now or i know that i and i haven't been i haven't been skipping enough i haven't been moving enough because i've been working so much again before i would have just not even been curious about why i felt like shit no no no no you're just in it or you you react to it in a way that is detrimental to yourself to other people around you i mean back then i'll certainly look at if i watched a clip of myself back in the day.

20:35Fearne Cotton: I mean, I used to cringe a lot. Now I'm just like, oh, bless. Oh, totally. She was doing her best. Doing her best. But I knew. Encertaining the country. Come on. The kids of the UK. But I knew back then that I didn't like myself. I felt deeply flawed in lots of ways. I knew what I was good at, but I knew way more about what I wasn't. And I focused on that a lot. Did you know that you were good at your job? Some of the time. I think when I maybe started getting sat from TV jobs or I wasn't getting as much work, that's when I started to go, I actually asked people around me, please be honest with me, am I weird?

21:13Fearne Cotton: Or is there something like I'm too much and people just think I don't want to watch you? I was like, please be honest, I can take it. Just tell me so I know. Wow. I can't believe that seemed something you thought was a question. For 10 years? I just did my first TV job this year. I know, I know. I was like, I can't put myself in that environment of feeling that insecure. I don't want to. With this, I feel like we're all mates. Like, we know we're all flawed and trying our fucking best. And, you know, we built this world. Yeah, like, it's lovely. I love it. I feel very lucky. But I think TV still feels a bit like the toxic ex-boyfriend that I'm going back to.

21:50But it's not this time. Totally. That's what I used to call the BBC. I was like, they're like a toxic bastard that I still want to fancy me. It will never go.

22:03Fearne Cotton: It will never go. Stop trying to impress them. Yeah, but I know back then that I really didn't like myself and I had no self-compassion. If I read a mean tweet or someone wrote something shitty about me, I would absolutely go, they're right. They are right. You know what, though? Because there was no social media, I think it was still quite a nuanced thing to be on screen, to be well-known and to sort of have a public life. now we're all quite close to a public life and being on screen and talking to our phones and seeing ourselves in that way so it was still very nuanced and the lives we had and the jobs we had and I have to be honest if you're not liking yourself and you have to be on screen every week there is nothing worse nothing worse there were times where I felt so overweight so depressed still trying to figure out who I was at 22, 23 and you still have to go do that job every week and make sure you are positive and you've got good energy and you're doing a bloody good job and you're doing your research and you're interviewing these huge, terrifying film stars really well.

23:07And it's not a woe is me story, but I think you have to be realistic about the strangeness of Hot 20s fun. Yeah, so weird. And the experiences, the experience that we were living. I mean, I definitely... I'm proud of us.

23:18Fearne Cotton: I'm proud of us. I really am. And before, like, we've got so much more to talk about, but even talking to you backstage, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. Yeah. Like, it's so beautiful. And that we did it for ourselves. And we did it for ourselves. Right. Like, I'm so fucking chuffed. When I look back to that era, like, I know I wasn't coping with a lot of it and I don't feel like there's not, again, this is like, not woe is me, but there's not much room to go, oh, I'm really struggling, this is awful because you have the dream job. You're meeting all the biggest pop stars and it's so unusual, but the pressure is weird and immense and the level of toxicity coming back at you.

23:56Fearne Cotton: My coping mechanism when I was self-loathing was, well, it wasn't a coping mechanism, but I was bulimic for like 10 years. That was the only way I could find something private for myself that made sense to me. Obviously, it doesn't now, but it was a release of sorts because I wasn't coping. For you, that was what? Partying. fun yep raving no not even raving actually just drinking too much and and it's interesting because i i've i did uh i did elizabeth's podcast and talk yeah i loved it about oh thank you god i didn't even realize how honest i was being until i heard it back i was like whoa i've actually never said a lot of this out loud and but it was really good for me because i i had to be honest about why i always wanted to be in that haze of being drunk and there was such a long time of um there's one thing drinking to celebrate your success that that was five years of fun but when I then lost jobs and wasn't working but was still very well known and at times had no money but everyone knows who you are and you look like shit but you can't go anywhere but you're not working and you have no money but everyone knows who you are it's like a really like a terrible place to exist so I just wanted to be in a haze all the time and I used to hate her Makita 29 to 33 hate on her avidly and now i'm like give her a break she was yeah she was an alcoholic but there was no i had nowhere to turn i was like stuck i couldn't get out of this place so i was like i'll just haze myself so that's been really like revelatory for me because i always thought my problem was being in my 20s and going out too much with lil in the early days no no no it was more that lonely time of early 30s post saturn's return so yeah it's a big one it's a big one and I didn't know about that until I was like 35 and then I was like oh that's why my life fell apart so I think understanding the rhythms of your life and also Miss Me wouldn't be what it was if I didn't have so much terrible shit to talk about that I've been through it'd be very boring you know what I mean I was like thank god for bankruptcy because that will do about four hours exactly exactly no but it was great when we realised that Miss Me was you know it was a really big hit really quickly and Lil and I were like do you know what we're genuinely turning our pain into power and our mistakes into gold.

26:23Like by being honest about your mess, we're getting success and helping people to never feel that they're messy because we're all so messy. Oh my God, it's relieving.

26:34Fearne Cotton: I love nothing more than hearing something on a podcast where someone you think is the ultimate shiny person. Yeah, like when Paltrow says she has shitty Wednesdays, you're like, okay. What? I need to hear that. Exactly. And so I'm really proud that at this stage in my career, I've had this beautiful success with this podcast. And it's all been about the truth of the mess. Yes. And you can then show up as yourself. You don't have to hide any part of yourself or any of your backstory. It's like, this is me. Take it or leave it. Well, I think that stuff really kills us. Like it really is so heavy secrets and hiding parts of ourselves.

27:10And, you know, after many years of therapy, which I'm sure you've done too, I'm still in it. Me too. Yeah. Seeing her tomorrow. Really? Went away for a few weeks. I hated it. But one of the greatest things about therapy is like stop trying to cut a part of yourself out. She's A, not going anywhere. And B, is important to you and is part of you. And you need to know that about her. Poor little 26 year old. Yeah. So that kind of bringing all of yourselves in. God, that's been so powerful for me. And I look different because of it. And I am different because of it. and I move differently because of it because I'm not trying to shut anyone out.

27:49They're all here. All 25 of me are here. Yeah, I love that. And do you like yourself today? Yeah. Yeah, I'm really proud of myself. I can't believe what I'm doing right now, especially with ropes. That's something, that's the business I've been building around the skipping rope and that's been five, six years of working behind closed doors and you can just feel like you're, especially because it's a skipping rope, you're just like what am I doing and you feel like you're talking into a void because you're just always talking about it in these rooms with people but it's never going out and then this summer we sort of did our first pre-sale campaign to show what we've been working on and it was like it was just like oh shit I've never like made something like invented something because we've invented the world's first retractable skipping rope and it looks nice it looks gorgeous and it's like sexy and I was like oh shit when me and my cousin who is backstage who I because we are going to give everyone some skipping ropes we don't have our ropes because they're in production but we're just going to give skipping ropes so you just get skipping and understand hold that pelvic floor in ladies

28:52Fearne Cotton: hold it tight hold it tight breathe in that's absolutely true we are working on ropes for maternity that's a whole other story thank you and like we need like a nappy postpartum rope yeah but yeah that's been that for me that was when I wasn't just like I'm proud of myself I was like look what you did Makita and it's just the beginning of this huge new journey, but that I've never liked myself more than the day we sort of went, this is it.

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31:41Fearne Cotton: So how do you go from, I know that I'm drinking too much because I'm blocking a bunch of stuff out to, I need to move my body and skipping is my thing. Because there'll be loads of people listening to this now who are like, I know I'm in a cycle of drinking too much and it's making me feel dreadful I guess the real understanding that we have choice is very freeing I was deep in victimhood and I did have a lot to feel a victim about but the choice was to stay there then one day I did move to a new flat which I always think environment does help to give yourself a new space and it was high up and I could see all of London again and I was sort of living on the marshes so it was very peaceful and beautiful and I was like I think I'm gonna fucking start dreamy again and then i started skipping and so the idea of the choice to change my thoughts i'm actually reading tina turner's book about spirituality right now i've got it backstage i'll show you i want it and it's so about thought she it's about her journey with buddhism but within all these practices but i'm sure everything that you're doing today with the with the classes and the sessions what do we do with our thoughts what thoughts do we choose to have and you think it's such a small thing but it just is not a change of thought changes your vibrational energy and and i'm very into metaphysics and newton's law his third law is for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction right it's the bulge yeah for every action so i hate myself is coming back to you times 10 or times two but times 10 what are you saying about yourself just to you just to yourself what you're saying about the day how you doing I'm like I used to have this Kevin Fortune do you remember him the hairdresser I used to have a hairdresser and they'd be like Kevin how are you he'd be like great today's the best day of my life and I'd be like give it a fucking rant Kevin but he was right now people ask me how I am and I say I'm really good I feel bloody good today sometimes you're tricking yourself sometimes you're not and sometimes the line gets blurred and you're just having a good day yeah it's so interesting I got into a real habit earlier this year of if someone said how are you rather than doing that or even just giving the normal human answer, I'm fine, I would tell them everything.

33:48Fearne Cotton: That just happened to me in the last month. They hadn't asked. They didn't actually care. They were like, I actually just wanted you to say I'm fine so I can walk past you. And I got into such a habit, and I'm only just coming out of it. Like, this is not good. This is not good for me. I don't want to be offloading that much, which I have been, but also just staying stuck in that. Like, there is no point. Stagnant. and uh tina turner talks a lot about the lotus uh the low trotus the flower lotus lotus for god's sake the lotus flower which grows in the mud not despite of it because of it so it's like what thoughts can you grow from even your muddy dark place because that's when you feel like a magician when you're like shit i changed this day shit i changed this month and that's what happened i just started changing my thoughts and I did really know as well in my heart the truth and the truth will set you free that if I had had the career that I'd had and I started to look back at it proudly for the first time instead of with shame I was like well look what I did as a kid oh yeah and then in my early 20s I did this t4 oh yeah what oh yeah I was really powerful and I thought if I have done that and then I skip and train and like myself mind body and soul and I put those two things together i knew i could fucking do anything i just knew it i was like suddenly like let's go and the interesting thing was that's the day i probably felt better than even the stuff coming true it was the day where i went i felt like it already happened yeah i was like oh i've done it i'm back i've got my career back this is how i feel did it and it was still a seven year period yeah seven year cycle of life but wow what a seven years i had and only because i had the courage to go for it what's really tricky is when you first have that idea of oh right like if you know you're stuck in victimhood which I'm sure most of us have had a day of a year of a decade of whatever no judgment here but we've all had moments where we've gone everything's shit in my life everything like all these awful things keeps you know keep on happening to me there is a moment when you decide to not be in that headspace and I definitely had this whenever 10 years ago or something after having some shit stuff go on where I thought right I can't be in that anymore but I do have to look at what I am accountable for and that's hard oh god accountability yeah yeah it's really hard and you have to look at actually show you what I made a massive mistake there and that is on me no one else I can't point the finger anymore I can't blame I can't just say I get bad luck I did that thing I've got to forgive myself actually is the biggest thing how did that go with you yeah um um yeah no that was very deep as well that whole accountability what is my role within all this what choices have i made what decisions did i make about myself that also got me here and brought me here facing the monsters under the bed best shit you can ever do best stuff you can ever do and i still do it and that's the great thing about sort of spiritual practice or any kind of practice where you start to observe your thoughts or observe the way you live and the world around you think about what you want in life you're never done because i keep being like i cannot believe i have to let go of something again it's like yeah yeah forever yeah do you know i mean see you till the end of time yeah but what we're doing is hopefully picking these up these practices up as soon as we can like do it yesterday and then you know where to go afterwards it's like we're not asking for it we're not praying for a challenge free life challenges and problems as Tina says in her book, like that's what makes you.

37:22That's what grows your character and resilience and wisdom and strength and courage. These things are delicious. So what we're really learning is a place to go when it feels like victim-y time again. Where do I go? Oh yeah, I go to this. I go to these thoughts. I go to chanting. I go to meditation, but not even those things. You can just go to changing your thoughts and remembering that practice that has saved you so many times. And Oprah says it as well. Yeah. She's like, she's the queen of surrender, right? And I thought I understood surrender. I was like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I surrender. No, no, no.

37:58Truly surrendering physically feels different. It's an energetic letting go. And you can cry. You can pray. When it's gone, it feels different. And I swear to God, when I've done it, huge reward is on the other side. What she says is what we're doing is surrendering, not to give things up. It's to give it up to that that is greater than you, which is like the universe around you. And then you get back into the flow of life and letting yourself be sort of, you know, moved like water. Trusting. Trust.

38:31Fearne Cotton: You have to trust. I think when you've been screwed over or something awful has happened to you or you've just been abused by the press, it is hard to feel hopeful and trusting that like life is going to happen in any kind of peaceful way. You're like, it's just going to be shit forever. Like that's the mindset you get into. So how did you start to go, I am just going to trust that everything's going to turn out okay. There's going to be challenges. There's going to be road bumps, but I'm going to trust. I looked back at the evidence of my life. And I think we can all do that, especially with perspective.

39:03If you look back at the evidence of your life, everything happened how it was meant to. even the most, probably especially the most devastating shit. Like Ropes exists because I had an idea, but I was also very heartbroken. And now I'm like, thank you. Do you know what I mean? I love it. Every time I go past that person's restaurant, I'm like, thank you. Yeah, thank you. I've got a business on that heartbreak. I love it. And actually you can start to say thank you to all of it. Last year when I lost the flat, I was like, you've got to be joking. and I had to go back to that place of I am not being punished.

39:39There must be a reason. I've just had to leave my dream home because of like a sort of violent, terrifying neighbor. Like it felt so unjust. Yeah. What's the point? Like, okay then, all right, back on my mom's sofa. Okay, so it's all over again. And I had to do miss me from the sofa and I was like, this is hell. And then I got into it and was like, well, my nan lives here with my mom and she's 90 next year. And I see her, but I don't see her. Suddenly I'm living with her. All day, every day, I'm with her. We start watching documentaries every night. We go on these long walks with the dogs. We have this time that I will never forget now.

40:13And I didn't go into it going, this is the time. What's the word? Like, if you're, like, doing time, like, oh, God, I just have to be here. I was like, what a gift to be in my mum's. Thank God my mum has a big house now because her career has taken off. Thank God there's all this space. Thank God our nan's alive. Thank God she lives with me. Thank God for life's quite a good one. Thank God for that. Thank you for that. and now I live in the best flat that I literally would have never dreamt of existing. It's so beautiful. And I totally had to go through the sofa to get to what we like to call Palace of Dreams.

40:49Oh, the Palace of Dreams.

40:51Fearne Cotton: Being with two matriarchs is so great as well. And I think your mum is so awesome and what she's achieved and what she's done. It's amazing. You know, mum's career started at 54. She's just phenomenal. She's so phenomenal. Over the years, when you've been in tougher times or you've gone, I can't do this anymore, has she given you wisdom, advice that's been helpful? Yes, very much remember who the fuck you are, always. And sometimes that can feel so nothing in my mum, please. But sometimes you're like, got you. She's like, remember who you are. And I'm like, it's so blunt that there's not much to fuck around with.

41:28It's like, just remember who you are. And I would say that to all of us. Remember who you are. But like actually remember, remember who you are, how you move, what you do for people, how you love people. Like it's so important because we can forget so easily. It's so funny, isn't it? It's so much easier to be awful to ourselves than lovely to ourselves. Yeah. So I think it is a game. Like life is a game. Play with your thoughts. Be like, actually, this is a fantastic day and I've never loved myself more. Why not? Because that shit becomes very real very quickly.

41:59Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I think we're bad at it because we think if we tell ourselves we're awful, if someone else says it, we won't be hurt. Oh, protection before. We'll go. I know. I know I'm a wanker. You've told me, but I already knew that. Rather than if you start to say to yourself, do you know what? I'm feeling pretty chuffed with myself today. I'm cool. And then someone says you're a piece of shit. That's when it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. The deflation and the falling from that thought feels awful. But I think if you can get into the practice of doing it, and I mean, I still have to every day. There's a ton of days where I wake up and I just go, who am I?

42:31Fearne Cotton: What am I doing? What's the point? Where am I headed with all of this? I still have no clue sometimes. But sometimes that kind of gives me the giggles. Because it's like, even existing is ridiculous. You know what I mean? So existential. It's just like, even the fact that we're here is just ludicrous. So sometimes, I mean, that's also what ropes is about. It's this idea of play. Because we play as kids. and then when we're thinking about looking after ourselves, it becomes about this regiment and these rules and almost sometimes punishment. Yeah, totally. And skipping for me is like, God, it's like a time machine.

43:09It transports you back to that useful place of courage and dreamy. And that's, I think, really an important thing to remember that you can play at life. Life can be very, very difficult, but you can play it like a fucking game. and so you should because it's that ridiculous to be alive in the first place.

43:29Fearne Cotton: Yeah, we do need more fun. I've been saying this all this year. I love what we're doing here and I think it's really beautiful and there's lots of different things to do. But I think wellbeing, and I don't always assign happy place to that title, but it gets very serious and very prescriptive and you have to be a certain type of person and do a certain type of things, which is a load of old crap. It's just about feeling well and finding that thing that makes you feel well. could be anything from pottery to you're going for a walk at midnight. Fern who discovered her painting. Painting is my absolute happy place.

44:06Fearne Cotton: I love that you discovered that. That makes me feel so good. I feel so well when I paint. And again, paint is really playful. It's like being a kid. I have the same when I ride a bike. And I mean, I'm no cyclist. I'm with my son and I'm eight yards behind him going like, like sweating. But it's something joyful about riding a bike through the park. It's being a kid again. Totally. It's so important. Totally. And I think I wanted to, as we were saying, like our early lives were so crazy. Like we're like hosting these shows and meeting these people and it's all quite whirlwindy and overwhelming.

44:36It's kind of like if I'm going to have this crazy career, I might as well play in it and like reinvent the skipping rope. And I suppose I've also done that so that the rest of my life, you know, I want to change my wealth. I want to make money for myself. I want to change the generational wealth of my family and people that come after me. But I also want to give this thing to millions and millions of people around the world that I know completely changed my life. And for me, that's the biggest game I could ever play. So why was it skipping? Did you just pick up a rope and you're like, oh, I feel good?

45:08No, when I was young, I wanted to play sports. I wanted to play tennis and badminton and squash. And we were totally skint, totally poor, single parent family. So we couldn't afford rackets. But my mom got me a skipping rope when I was about five. So I skipped furiously as a child. and then I picked it back up in lockdown with the heartbreak and was like, found my rhythm. And that's what we say with ropes, find your rhythm. It's not about beating yourself. It's not about counting your jumps. It's just finding your rhythm. And it's so fun, Skipping. You know when you're like, I'm going to go for a run, there's a bit of a like, I know you did a lot of running.

45:41Now look at your face. I know you love running.

45:45Fearne Cotton: Do you know what, I've got dodgy day. I've not been for a run in about six months. Okay, only six months, so it's still in your life. Well, I don't know. Has it gone forever? It depends on if this knee decides to sort itself out. My mom just had knee surgery there and it changed her life. Well, she's now, she's back out, she's doing her thing. She's the bionic woman now. I love that. Never walked so great. I need a Robocop knee. Yeah, exactly. I'm back out running. But it is, I know that dread of like, oh, I should go for a run. And then when you're out, you're like, oh, this is fine. This is great.

46:10But skipping, it's just, it's fun from the minute you whip that rope over your head. And my body changed in ways I'd never seen it change before. and my mind changed in ways I'd never seen it before. In what way? Like what was it doing to your brain? Focusing me. Focusing me through play rather than in the gym, weights like I will get thinner, I will get better. It was more like, I wonder what I'm going to do. Do you know what I mean? I was like having fun and dreaming. And we do a lot of skipping with kids and we go to a lot of schools and we say to them like dream bigger, jump higher. And I said to them, silly, my business partner I remember my cousin the other day, I was like, fuck saying that to kids.

46:50Let's say it to adults as well. Dream bigger. Jump higher. That is a huge piece of advice for every day in life. Come on, I dare you. Dream a bit bigger. Jump a bit higher. That's why I love sports, Fern, because tennis, for instance, the way you play is what you get back. So if the ball comes over the net and you kind of go for it, then you probably won't hit it and you have to pick up and start again. If you go, okay, let me just, then it's a big deal. And it's a risk, isn't it? I hope I hit it. And then you hear that impact. And you're like, oh, my God, I fucking did hit it. Then it goes over and suddenly you're in play.

47:25So it's like, how do you attack your life? How much do you give? Again, back to Newton's third law of motion. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What do you want to give your life? Because that is the life you will get back. It's not even, I'm not even being like spiritual or even kind. It's not where we're talking science. It's science. Thank you, God. It is. And that's what Oprah says. It's law. Yeah. It's not about this is how energy works. So play in the metaphysics of it all. I implore you to. Because knowing that that's the law of the way things work really helped me.

48:00It wasn't just like a sweet idea. It's absolutely true. And my life is a living embodiment of it. A complete living embodiment of it.

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49:40Fearne Cotton: I mean it's so tricky because like when we started in TV we had not that much control in how we were coming across and our image and I'm imagining you felt like it was set in stone with something like T4 where the tone of that and what you are putting out has to be a bit piss-taking because that's the tone of it. Did that feel jarring? It did because it started on Pop World and it wasn't sarky like that. The idea was to tell the truth, which sometimes was a bit harsh. Sorry, I told my kids it. But there was charm to it and wit to it. And Potwell wasn't silly. It was funny, which is what I was always very proud of.

50:22We had great writers. I was a good writer. So was Simon. And we knew what we wanted, even though it was all improvised. But the ideas that we wanted to get across, we were all on a level together. T4 started like that as well. Me and Steve were totally like that. loved that with him he really got that and as you remember steve's quite dangerous like he's not he looks like a ken doll but he's that so awkward i don't mean like i don't mean like behind closed doors um but yeah but he was you know he's a brilliant man and we had so much fun with that but towards the end it started becoming this thing that i was seeing not just on t4 but like across the board of kind of like snarkiness and a kind of you can't sit with us energy and I was like that's not it that's not what we were cultivating um so around the end of T4 I have to say it was quite difficult because there were new presenters coming in and falling into this sort of idea of sarkiness sarcasm and I was like god we've built a monster like and it was never about that it was always about the truth and honesty and kindness yeah always kindness like i would never want to be unkind so yeah that did start to drown me quite a lot yeah and i guess

51:36Fearne Cotton: back then if you can see that the results of that were i don't feel very good about my life i don't feel very good about myself and your attitude has completely 180s your life that's such a powerful reminder that every thought we're having everything that comes out of our mouth is really important in terms of like where we're going. And that's not to mean that we have to get it right and be perfect because of course we're not. We're fallible. We're going to mess up. We're going to say the wrong thing. We're going to have days where like, oh, you know, the amount of times this summer I've gone to my kids, I'm so sorry that I'm grumpy today.

52:08Fearne Cotton: I'm just a little bit stressed out and whatever. We're not here to get it perfect. But I think always going back to that returning thought of I've got autonomy over how some of this stuff rolls out. that is really really game changing yeah well I just read this unbelievable chapter in the book sorry this is all about me and my Tina Turner book I love her but there's this great chapter where she's chanting with this elder Japanese woman in the 90s and she the woman asks her like how are things and Tina sort of lists off her problems which are at the time unbelievable and all the women clap and say congratulations and she's like did you hear me right and they're like no no no no know like with true buddhism or whatever you know any kind of practice of observing our thoughts and thinking about the way we think you can as bad as your problem is that's how good it can be that's how good the reaction can be because of how you approach it so at the moment i've got like a minor problem but it could turn into a major problem and i'm like all right so the minor problem actually that's how positive it can be minorly positive but if it gets to a major problem it could be majorly positive and i've seen that again in my life all the time because of how i approach something so I think there's this idea of just changing changing what what is negative and what is positive these are like old myths that we've made up in our heads like this is a problem maybe it's not maybe it's something to overcome that might give you the best reward of your life yeah yeah I know some of my biggest challenges are 100 % the best things that ever happened same I wouldn't be doing any of this if I hadn't had like the worst period of my life I would just carried on going I hope I get another tv job yeah I hope I'm as good as out on deck one day yeah And you never are because they're the best.

53:49You can't be as good as them. It's impossible. I mean, I think also just like that autonomy that you said that. So just even knowing that I have a choice.

53:56Fearne Cotton: Yeah. It's so important. It's so important. And honestly, it's just like so cool to see what you're doing and that you're just being yourself without the fear of like the press are going to say something or I'm going to get sacked. It's like you just. No, fuck them. We're more powerful than them now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have. We're leaving all of that behind. I mean, the difference that we had back in the day with the press, I think we probably got equally battered in the press and you just don't know that each other are going through it. You know, we've both got horror stories in that department.

54:25Fearne Cotton: But for you, do you believe there was also added racism in the mix of how you were talked about in the press? Oh, God, yeah. Which is so depressing because I already felt so isolated and alone because there weren't other. They really weren't. I always think maybe I'm being a little bit silly by saying I was the only one, but I don't remember anyone. There was June before me and then she had gone. So it was sort of just me. And I don't even mean like in youth TV. I just mean in telly. And so to be it's kind of that kind of veil of racism, which is like we won't call her. We won't call her a dirty black girl, but we will call her dirty and grubby.

55:03And they were the words that the terminology that I remember only being used around me because they had a whole other list of vile words. for Lily but it was never those and these were mine and and and you sort of feel like they're assigned to just you and who you are but of course now luckily with my wisdom and getting older of course it was racism but it wouldn't have even been direct racism we just live in a racist world and it would have been a huge example of just the way the world was and you know I'm not saying that racism has disappeared but I just don't think they would have they would get away with that now no See, I say that though, and then Lily went through hell when we started Miss Me, and I couldn't believe how little had changed then.

55:45I couldn't believe it. Yeah. I couldn't believe, like, back in that realm of the sun and the mirror and all that shit, they still, it's lawless. Yeah, yeah. The way they were with the Wild West. Especially when we talked about abortions. That I was really shocked at the reaction from women as well. Really angry with us. angry with us said that we were belittling the experience because we'd spoken about our personal experiences with abortion and how we honestly felt about it and one of the things we didn't feel was victimhood because it was a choice yeah in our lives and i that i would never go against a huge decision like that for myself and i couldn't believe how negative and devastatingly violent the language towards Lily and I still was and how do you what do you do with that information not shut up keep going don't say we should probably not talk about abortions I was like let's do episode 2 on abortions like let's keep going I'm not trying to rile anyone up but you won't silence us and it is there to silence you and it's there to scare you and it doesn't scare me that's good no way oh I'm still terrified no fuck them yeah I'm very scared

56:57Fearne Cotton: don't be scared yeah courage yeah no it's great I think it's awesome I think you're absolutely right I think it is there to silence subjects and people and things and matters and squash them and get a sensationalised headline that then people click on because they just want more clicks or more views or whatever it might be and it doesn't matter if it's of any worth or content or substantial it's just get the click and it's not great so I think hats off I'm working towards that I want to give zero fucks down the line. I'm not quite there yet. Yeah, we're all like 85 % there. I'm 85 % there. I'm getting there.

57:34Fearne Cotton: What I want to say is I'm so happy that we've done this. Beyond. I can't even tell you. Like, beyond. And I'm also a bit sad because I think we could have... We've been good friends for years. I know. We've lost all that time. They took our 20s from us. We're just going to have to be like friends in their 40s who lunch a lot. I just feel like this could have been It could have been lovely. It's really weird. And I think, you know, both Makita and I, when we talked about, before we did this podcast, this was not to become just about us. What I hope is that we've all fallen out with a mate or even someone you don't know.

58:14Fearne Cotton: We don't even know each other. And there's like this void or a distance and you misunderstand each other. It doesn't mean you have to make amends with every person in your life. Because I do believe sometimes there are people that stay in the park. For sure. and you don't need to go back mending every relationship. Sometimes you go, do you know what, that chapter's closed, whatever. But I think if you've got an inkling that there's a friend out there that you would like to reconnect with or there's just a disconnect with someone and it doesn't need to be there, I believe it's only healing. And if you think, like, you know, I took a slight risk and when I DM'd you...

58:47Fearne Cotton: I was just thinking that. Did you think it was a risk to DM me? Well, I don't know if I thought it was a risk. I thought you could ignore it and I would just go, okay. Or you would say... is the risk something back yeah but i was willing to take that it wouldn't have even been rejection i would have just gone yeah i'm not cool and mccita's cool so you know but you wouldn't want back to that old place i would have i would have but i would have been fine with that but i i kind of had an inkling that that wouldn't be the case i thought i reckon that this will be a really nice moment where we've connected over a shared experience that is really shit and i think that yeah i just wanted to do this podcast because i think there are so many other women out there and there'll be men too but we're better at talking and I do think many women out there will listen to this and go God maybe I will like text that person or send that message or clear up a misunderstanding that doesn't need to be there because it only feels great yeah yeah yeah it only feels good so I am I'm so glad yeah I think we've done like something like of service for ourselves and others around us and they say that is like the highest level of living yeah I agree feels good feels like high frequency shit Yeah, it's high frequency.

59:56Fearne Cotton: It's vibrating. High frequency. Reverberating. Before we end, where is your happy place, Makita? The terrace of Palace of Dreams. Describe the terrace. Oh, my God. It's based on Bette Midler's Upper East Side Threat House. Great. I love it. Talk about manifesting. When I sat on the sofa, I was like, this is fine. I live on this sofa and I'm 41, but this is fine. I'm going to read every interiors book and I'm going to really like build my palace of dreams and I did and I got this amazing flat and Bette Midler has this penthouse on the Upper East Side and it's just got this huge garden but it looks like a kind of old English Somerset like cottage garden so that's what it is it's like I'm high up with the best view of London you've ever seen on a park but then there's just this like Upper East Side energy flower garden and I have a big white sofa and when I sit there with tea and I look at the city and I look at my beautiful flat I'm like okay I'm really really really really fucking happy yeah so that is my place so glad or the tennis court nice because that reminds me to play hard and you know keep playing yeah the game of life the game of life yeah well I love that for you and I'm so glad that you came up to Cheshire to see all of us please give it up for Makita Oliver thank you oh my god I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did because that was like hugely game changing.

1:01:26Fearne Cotton: And like we both said, you know, it isn't just about us repairing this sort of like weird void that we had created for no reason because we weren't friends to start with. There was no friendship to end. It just started badly. But I think for people out there that like, you know, you've got someone out there that doesn't like you or doesn't get you or maybe you've done something. you know I've I've apologized to people where I've fucked up in the past and it's been so healing and it is risky because they might not accept your apology but I think it's always worth it um but I really hope like me and Makita have spoken since because we're now we're kind of friends guys just putting that out there um and we both believe that by doing that episode we've done something good and I always hope that we do that with happy place but I really believe it this time it felt like we've done something good and that makes me happy so yeah I can only urge you if you've got you know a misunderstanding with someone beef with someone a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable if you feel like brave enough to reach out to try and cross that void I think it's worth the risk of them ignoring you or coming back with something unsavory I think it's worth it because there is also a high chance I could get back to you and really do a bit of healing and repairing so go for it and like let us know if you do do that because I think if we keep sharing these stories it's really powerful like drop us a dm at happy place official if you've had an experience like that or you or you might dare to now having listened to that I would love to hear your your version of of me and Makita I would love nothing more but thank you Mikaeta thank you for getting back to me thank you for braving coming to very much my territory on that day it was my festival that you stepped into and we all welcomed you with open arms but I know that must have taken a lot of courage so I'm really grateful alright until next time a massive thanks again to Mikaeta and to you you're bloody brilliant

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