Munroe Bergdorf: “I’m scared for my safety!” Bodily autonomy & femininity as armour

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that brings us all closer through storytelling. Today I'm chatting to Munro Bergdorf. I can't be having a conversation with a cisgender woman who refuses to understand that I'm a human being too, who's also under threat of misogyny, who's also scared about her physical safety, who's also experiencing mental health challenges because of the rise in misogyny rates, who can't walk down the road without being catcored and feeling like I need to cross the road at night when a man's walking towards me. all of these things are shared but we don't know that if we don't talk to each other i really enjoyed this episode and look i've said it before but doing this podcast helps me immensely mentally i can't even tell you some days i wake up feeling so shit for no reason like i know many of you do and having these chats is game-changing it gives me a whole new perspective it reminds me that other people are going through stuff too it stops me spiraling into my own little wormhole of negative thoughts.

1:00I had a really wonky brain week last week where I just, I was just being really mean to myself and I could feel myself spiralling and I just felt quite shit. And again, listening to other people talk and tell their stories never fails to lighten the load for me and just gives me, I guess, the chance to get out of my own head and get into someone else's. That's why I bloody love doing this podcast. And I'm pretty sure it's one of the reasons why you listen to it too. Today is no exception. It is a really important one. Monroe is a seriously trailblazing, internationally renowned activist, writer and model.

1:41Her new book is called Talk to Me and she's made a new documentary called Love and Rage 2 which is incredible. Both of which remind us that conversations might not seem to change lives or shake up the system but they really do have so much more value than you might realise. We of course had to start this chat with the recent UK Supreme Court ruling that said that for the purpose of the Equality Act 2010 women and sex refer to biological sex not gender and Munro does an incredible job of explaining what that means for trans women and indeed for cisgender women and our society at large. By the way you're going to want to stick around right to the end of this episode because there's a special exclusive just for you as a Happy Place listener.

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4:33Right, here it is. This is the show.

4:57Oh my God, I'm so excited to start this chat. I'm excited to meet you for the first time. But I know, do you know what I think? We haven't met Met, but I sat near you at the King's Trust Awards one year. Really? Yes, and I remember because your dress spilled over to about five seats. That was a really big dress. That dress is major. I know. They actually moved two people and I felt really bad. Did they move people for your dress? I think they kind of thought, well, this isn't going to work. This dress is huge. But yeah. It's so good. Well, I'm really happy to meet you properly, properly today.

5:27Me too. I've had an amazing time reading your new book and watching your documentary, which we're going to get on to. But first of all, I want to know how you're doing, because it's been one hell of a year, quite frankly, but certainly the last few months have been pretty intense. How's your head? How's your heart? It feels like when people ask me, my initial reaction is I'm good. But then you kind of, you know, have that moment where you're like, like, can I really go there with somebody? I think in this instance, I really want to go there. But it's difficult because you don't want to let it rule your life.

6:05you know this supreme court ruling is really landmark in the trajectory of how our community is able to participate in public life with the guidance that followed it it reads like segregation and when you've got that looming it's very difficult to not spiral into despair so I'm both you know really investing in my personal life and you pour myself into my friendships and my career and my partner and my family and like I'm really good in my personal life but then also this is really tough um so it's a ping pong of you know I'm good I'm panicking um so um yeah I think it's it's difficult it's a difficult question to answer I think that a lot of people in the community are really struggling right now.

6:59Yeah I mean of course. With this UK Supreme Court ruling what are now your biggest fears for the trans community? I think my biggest fear is how this could serve to erase our human rights. Ultimately the guidance really disregards the Equality Act which should concern all of us because the Equality Act protects all of our rights. regardless of who we are or how we identify, it even protects workers' rights and the right to not be exploited by your employer. So if people can just go in and remove what they fancy from the Equality Act, then what's to stop a future government saying, we don't want workers' rights, we don't want women's rights, we don't want right to abortion, we don't want freedom of religious expression because all of these things are protected by the Equality Act 2010.

7:58So my concern is not just the impact that this is going to have on the trans community but that we are sleepwalking into disaster as a country where any government, future government and how it's looking, you know the idea of a reform government or a reform Tory coalition coming into power could just turn around and say we don't fancy these rights for these people and then it silos us into a situation that is going to be very difficult to return from and prioritizes certain kinds of humanity rather than acknowledging that we are all humans that deserve human rights period. Yeah I mean I want to get into the book in absolute detail in a moment but I read it in one sitting which I think that's a good sign yeah I think it's the sort of book that you need to read in one sitting in my eyes because it's a continuous flow of not only storytelling but also for me there was a lot of educational points things I didn't know about and also just blind spots for me that I needed to pick up on and one of the biggest things that landed for me on this subject is the misdirection of anger and blame to the trans community and I'd love you to talk a bit more about that because that was one I mean I think it was in one sentence you sort of summed it up and I was like wow that I needed to read that explicitly and understand it better do you know what that sentence was because I can maybe even find it but I've written down loosely here the real threat isn't trans women it's that the vast majority of this isn't necessarily I might have truncated this but the vast majority of say crimes like rape violence murder are instigated by men so we're not looking at that we're directing all of that rage all of that injustice and anger to trans women yeah I think the problem really lies in that the majority of people who are angry towards trans people have never met a trans person in their life so when you don't know a person who's trans personally, it's very easy to be convinced that they are someone that they're not.

10:17Or it's very easy to be manipulated into having your very valid fears projected onto somebody that doesn't actually have anything to do with those fears, but actually shares those fears too. Trans women share a lot of the same fears that cis women face. As a trans woman, my reality is very different to a cisgender woman's, but so is a black woman's experience to a white woman's, to an Asian woman's, to a disabled woman. All of our experiences are valid. They all matter. And we are often scared of the same things. But when you've got a society that is ultimately weaponising those fears instead of solving them, is misdirecting the blame because if we were to actually explore where that blame lies it's a I think it's a direction that maybe society's not ready for it's really really important that we do though with soaring misogyny rates you know with the conversation around adolescents coming out and a lot of people having their eyes opened to the radicalization of young men and boys.

11:31It's a conversation that we have to start having and we need to stop blaming people that are just trying to live their lives. You know, it's not migrants' fault that you are earning less or that there's less opportunity. It's not trans women's fault that there is soaring levels of abuse online and in real life. We need to start really actually looking at the source but I think that that's the function of culture wars isn't it it's if we solved the problem then culture wars wouldn't have their function yeah culture wars kind of function in the sense of an endless war and war is often with a motive and it often isn't about what it's being said it's about so I think that the trans community are a very beneficial scapegoat.

12:25Unfortunately, we're a very small community that is visible enough to exploit, but, you know, they don't need our votes. In reality, we have very little power, yet we're talked about as if we're the ones running the show, that we're the ones, you know, inconveniencing everyone's lives and you know endangering people through merely existing and through wanting to go for a swim somehow that's like inconveniencing the rest of society and it's it's a real shame because we've seen all of this play out before with the proposed segregation of minority groups whether or not that's saying that black women shouldn't be allowed in the same spaces as white women because they're inherently angry or inherently violent or not real women and then the pipeline of where that you know comes from is is heartbreaking you know in medical racism as well black women were operated on to form modern medicine because they believed that black women specifically didn't feel pain arguing that jews shouldn't be allowed to go into certain spaces it's just um it's sad that we don't learn from our mistakes that we don't learn from our ignorance that when we don't understand something we demonize it and we humiliate it into submission so my real worry my primary worry is the impact that this will have on the mental health of trans people yeah living day to day the reality is most people don't know a trans person and the only trans people that they see are either influencers that are using their platforms or people in the public eye so they've they've kind of formed their idea of what a trans person is by a public platform when the reality is a lot of trans people just want to go and work and like live their life whether or not that's working in a shop or like you know being cabin crew you know normal jobs we're normal people yeah so my worry is ability to function in public life if you can't use the men's bathroom as a trans man if you can't use the women's bathroom as a trans woman and then you're told to use the bathroom that you're assigned at birth but then the guidance also says in some circumstances trans women can't use the men's either if you've had gender affirming care and look too much like a woman that leaves you in a place where there's no bathroom and then you can't use the disabled people's bathroom because why should we take that space away from somebody who needs it and we're not disabled some trans people are but then if an able-bodied trans person is forced to use and take away a space from another person that's not fair either so really if you're in a workplace that's telling you that we don't have a space for you and then singles you out forces you to come out forces you to make your gender identity a thing to everybody makes you uncomfortable we're really talking about segregation here and the impact that that could have on not just trans people but people that could be perceived to be trans is catastrophic.

15:51It's going to turn people into the gender police. If we're saying that people need to start carrying their birth certificate around to prove that they're not trans, then is that really a free state? That's fascism, in my opinion. To carry a certificate to say that you can go from A to B, that's not right. That's not right for anybody. And also when we hear the transport police say that they're going to start using male officers to strip search trans women, how do you know that that's a trans woman that you're proposing to strip search? How do you know that an officer who may or may not be corrupt says that you're trans as a cis woman to then strip search you?

16:34Because a lot of trans women have vaginas too. So unless you're looking for a cervix, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of men can't find a cervix. because they can't find a lot of other things then you do you know what I mean it's so illogical all of this is so illogical and it puts so much power into the wrong hands for all of us and that's why I'm so adamant that trans rights are women's rights and bodily autonomy across the board if you don't like the idea of transitioning don't transition but it's not for you to say to other people that they can't if you don't want an abortion don't have abortions but don't tell other people that they can't either abortion and trans rights follow a lot of the similar trajectories and I you know I'm so adamant that if trans rights are removed from the equality act 2010 then it's gonna set a ball rolling in a very difficult direction for all of us I mean having to regularly and this is something this is part of your activism this is part of who you are as a person that this is you know you you there's not only passion but this is survival for you and you're speaking on behalf of friends of yours but also a community and people look to you for that guidance and look to you for that strength and that hope talking about your own human rights and having to defend them is exhausting.

18:06It's something that many people wouldn't even think about having to do. And here you are having to do that quite regularly. And I'm imagining that takes its toll massively, mental health-wise, energetically. Also, you know, I don't have the same lived experience as you, but I can even just feel it sort of being in the public eye, people having opinions about you is draining and can actually send you completely mad. It sent me completely mad so many times. I'm like, what am I doing? It's not a natural way of being. No, it's completely, it's insanity. And you somehow find coping mechanisms and suddenly have good days and bad days.

18:44How has this particular period affected your mental health? Because it's been really full on. Yeah, I feel it's odd. I was with my boyfriend the day after all of this broke. And I think I just went into numbness because this court case has been going on for the best part of a decade. So I had a feeling that this was going to happen because all of the signs have been there that this is what was going to happen. This is what governments have lined up to happen. People have been put in place in certain roles to allow this to happen. people of significant means have been advocating for this to happen so all of the signs were pointing that this is going to happen I think a lot of people didn't even know that this court case was happening that this was going on and that's really down to you know how trans rights are reported on the kind of conversations that we're having when all of the conversation is focused on women in sport when there's very little trans women competing in women's sports and when trans women do compete in women's sports there's processes often in terms of the form of hormone regulation and things like that which actually isn't limited to trans people.

20:11If a cis woman who is considered to have elevated levels of testosterone her womanhood is then thrown into question and then she's having to also have hormone regulation treatments such as castor-semenya and iman kalaf who's also a boxer who was humiliated and is a biological woman so when all of the focus is on the wrong place instead of encouraging us to understand what's happening legally and politically um you really start to understand how distraction works and it's getting everyone to look over there focus on the bathrooms focus on the women in sports create a problem that doesn't exist and then we take your rights away through the back door and the same will happen for cisgender women too i promise and i don't want that to be a promise I want it to be a warning because we are all focusing on the wrong things whilst abortion, not just abortion, miscarriages could lead to a woman having a conviction, a criminal conviction.

21:26last week in the press there was a story about how women who have an unexpected end of pregnancy could be visited by the police imagine losing a child and then being under suspicion for an unexpected end of pregnancy after a certain date and people need to realize that this is all connected trans rights lgbt rights gay marriage that isn't as set in stone as people think it is abortion and pregnancy rights and just our right to general safety you know when we've got the police when we've got stories like Sarah Everard being murdered by Wayne Cousins and it just really actually not making that much of a difference in how we talk about policing when we've got Brianna Jai a 16 year old trans girl stabbed to death by her classmates and somehow that isn't a red line for how people talk about trans people how bad does it need to get before we actually start thinking this is a horrendously violent place for all women and girls and we are focusing on the wrong things so I've really kind of steered away from talking about like my mental health because I don't know I mean I feel like I've got responsibility to my community and I feel like a lot of trans people are forced into the position of being an activist and um I don't know if that I feel like I I want to be able to be of service for my community and yeah it's scary because I feel like it's um the stakes are so high now I didn't get into you know when I first came into this industry I was really just talking about our you know increased visibility and representation and like respect in public spaces and somehow we have gone from visibility and respect and representation to being somewhat talked about by people in positions of power as potential attackers of women and girls even though there's absolutely no statistic to suggest that that is the case it also doesn't make any sense because why would a man a cisgender man pretend to be a trans woman in order to get access to a women's space when trans men exist and he could just pretend to be a trans man and then say no I was assigned a woman at birth and I transitioned to become a man and I'm in this space which is by this logic the right space to be in is misogyny the focus on trans women is misogyny because it doesn't line up none of it lines up I mean with you know you've touched I didn't even answer your question sorry no do you know what you did because also I think feeling numb is I mean in my experience shock and even though you might have a feeling it's coming and you've seen the signs and you've you know you're obviously completely on top of how these things are flowing and how they might turn out I think numbness is shock it's like your body's way of going I can't compute this I can't it's one process it's one thing knowing it's coming and then it's another thing when it actually happens yeah I guess it's like similar to Roe versus Wade like you know that the threat is there and somewhat process that it could happen but then when it happens it's like yeah yeah you can say crap I was gonna say something else um but uh yeah I feel like you know I've had my major depressive moments in advance because I felt like this is a moment where I'm gonna have to step up and that's full on you know because people will look to you to step up in a moment like this in time and you know we watching the documentary we've got this amazing documentary coming out which it's so cinematic and beautifully made you know I dm'd you on instagram after directly after I watched it because I was just like this is so powerful and again you know not only do we get to know you better but it explains so much it's called love and rage and it's just really beautifully done but we see you in burnout we see you know you talk about after pride feeling so burnt out and like you had nothing more to give what is that balance to you how do you keep a check on how much you're giving away how much of yourself you're willing to put out there because every time you want to go out there and say something yes you're going to have people who are going thank you I understand I'm learning or thank you for speaking up for me but there are obviously going to be people that say the opposite and you're quite used to that by now but it doesn't make it any easier I don't think you ever really get used to it I think it's hard I think you you stop looking for it and i think that's the difference yeah like you you're never going to get used to someone screaming in your face that you suck and that you're barely human and that you deserve to die and like that impacts everybody but i think when you're in the public eye you stop looking for it you stop like searching your name you stop concerning yourself with the opinions of people who don't care if you live or die like why would I it's like you severed the abuse in a way um I'm not very good at knowing when to stop yeah I'm honest because for a very long time I was the only trans person of color with a platform in the UK and for actually for a while I was actually one of the only trans people who was getting certain opportunities in the mainstream um there weren't hardly any I mean there wasn't really influencers when I first came into this industry and there definitely weren't any trans influencers and trans people weren't working with fashion and beauty brands I was one of the first to do that and I'm really proud to have opened a lot of doors for people and not pulled up the ladder after me whenever a new girl comes on the seen when there was when there was a young doll I'm always like let's have lunch I want to be a big sister for you in this industry and like we're all different not all of us see eye to eye we have our little like spats but like you know that's like girls but like I want people to know that like I ride for the dolls I ride for my sisters and as soon as a girl is in the industry I'm like you need to know that this can be hard.

28:35Yeah. Especially as a woman, but then you add being trans on top of that and there's a misogyny that is not accepted for cis women. But trans women, our womanhood is really, the stick that is used to measure our womanhood is largely along misogynistic lines. So like hair on a cis woman's arms, it's normal to have hair on your arms. but if a trans woman walks into a room and she's got hairy arms then we're not going to be measuring her with the same standards that we do as a society for cis women suddenly that arm hair is a signifier that she's not a real woman so the pressures to adhere to traditional ideas of what it means to be a woman is so high for trans women for all women but especially trans women because our womanhood is then questioned yeah so when you are then in the public eye oh times it by a million yeah so i just always want girls to know that i'm there for them the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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31:47I mean you say in the documentary that you know and I'm sure this is partly probably largely because of your public persona and the fact that people are looking at you and you know whether a red carpet or a documentary or on a podcast like this your presentation is ultra feminine and it's like a suit of armor that you wear but in the documentary now we are seeing you at home in joggers no makeup hair scraped back did watching that back make you feel vulnerable or like you were having to show a part of yourself that felt slightly uncomfortable you know what actually I think it was really good for me because up until that point I was so regimented about how I would allow people to see me and working with Olivia Cappuccini who is the director of the documentary she really was just like enough of the bullshit I was like can't I just put on a little bit of foundation get the ball gown off come on and like you know what like both sides are me yeah but I have just been so battered down by the media especially in the early days of my career and just some of the things that have been said to me I think I just went into this kind of mode where I was like I'm never gonna let people see me sweat and that includes I'm never gonna like not be polished because I don't know I think, yeah, it was a defense mechanism and it is a defense mechanism.

33:11I write about it in my first book, actually, about how this is not just like kind of something in women's heads. It's a social condition. If you look at women who read the news, they did a study that people are less likely to take or believe what the woman who is reading the news is saying if they find her unattractive. Wow. And also, it doesn't just stop there. In court cases, if a woman has been attacked by a man and she is deemed unattractive, they're less likely to believe that she's even been attacked. And I guess then when you understand that, you understand like public perception. I guess that there's a sense of, you know, that my life is going to be easier if I look a certain way all the time.

34:03because this is me but I probably put on the armor more than I need to sometimes but it can be both can't it it can be you know I love putting makeup on and putting a nice outfit on but equally especially in this environment you know I don't want to be on camera not feeling confident yeah myself so I think it's kind of for most women it's both it's like it's a it is a suit of armor but also oh it's so fun and I love it and it makes me feel good I think it's also like perceived differently when you're trans but like ask any woman to go into the workplace without any makeup on yeah and like see how she would feel ask any woman to not shave her legs and then go on a date and see how she would feel we all do things that maybe we're just like kind of programmed to just do but yeah when I was filming without makeup on I was like quite self-conscious watching it back now I'm because it's we were filming for three years and now I feel like you know that's younger at me and I don't feel like you know I'm looking back at her knowing everything that I went through you know I lost people I lost a person who I loved incredibly and that I've got a tremendous amount of guilt about because in that relationship I was the less emotionally mature person at the time and I felt like you know you sometimes look back at relationships and you know a lot of my relationships I'm the more mature one I'm the one ready to be loved I'm the one ready to love and then suddenly I was in a relationship with another trans woman and I couldn't get out of my head what does this mean who who am I in in this like and I think a lot of it was like my inability to love my own transness in in in those years yeah and I found it like extremely confusing to fall in love with another trans woman and also you know I feel like another woman um I had I'd never had a relationship with another woman I feel like often relationships with men like emotional immaturity comes part and parcel a lot of the time and you know I'm the one having to like kind of give and give and give and I didn't have to give I just had to be and I felt like that was really uncomfortable and I just felt when we broke up that I didn't give her what she deserved and then I we we grew apart she um she moved away and I got into a different relationship and then I heard that she passed away and I just found it really difficult like grief comes with guilt it comes with anger it comes with sadness and it was tough so when I look at myself in that documentary I really just I don't care that I'm not wearing makeup I feel like I want to hug myself because it also just puts into perspective that life is really hard and my life was so tough in those three years that wearing makeup or not wearing makeup was neither here nor there so it was really actually a really freeing thing for me I love the glam but I feel like it actually forced me to like give myself a break yeah too right I mean that was a particularly poignant story threaded throughout the documentary and I think when grief is complicated like that and there's no tying up of loose ends there's no moment to say goodbye or to say the things that you wanted to say that's really hard that's really hard and I think you know what you said there's really important also about your own self-acceptance you know we've we've probably all been through a relationship like that where we didn't like ourselves we weren't accepting of who we were where would you say you are with that today so do you have a tissue yeah of course um thanks yeah it's full-on and it's full-on to talk about that relationship yeah it's hard you know publicly it's it's a lot it's a lot um sorry i zoned out what was the question again no don't worry you take your time well i think it's really around you know because you've got that piece of footage to look back on now where you can see your growth that's why I also enjoyed watching it because we see it's not like oh here I am and I've got all the answers and I've sorted everything out you know none of us have but you see your journey through it you see your growth you see the ups and downs that have got you to a place where you feel perhaps more resilient I'm not speaking on your behalf but you know you can see that yeah so I wonder where you are with the self-acceptance piece you know if you can look back at that relationship and think I didn't love myself enough and that's why I couldn't be in it you know I'm sure most of us have been in a relationship like that we it's ended because we didn't like ourselves and that was the defining factor do you feel accepting of yourself today I do I think it's human nature to never be satisfied in different respects like visually like I think in terms of my appearance I feel like I'm the most accepting that I've ever been I'm thankful to have accessed a lot of the gender affirming care that I wanted to and I feel like the best thing for me was beauty neutrality and you know just like not resting so much on my appearance and not thinking so much about how I look and just trying to be a lot more present and not thinking about you know I wish I wish I wish and you know before you know it you've wished yourself into being someone completely different that will never be you and that isn't you so I think a lot of it is about just practicing acceptance even about the things that you know I don't necessarily love about myself which you know will also just constantly happen you know as we age there's going to be things that happen to my body that I don't love and I don't want to look back and be like I just really wish I loved myself more and like the way that my body worked and my healthy body so I've really eased up on myself a lot I feel like like struggling with how I dealt with things in the past has been the biggest the biggest hurdle I got asked the other day in an interview if I chase controversy in the early days of my career and I think I was just naive I really actually well we're all young once and we're learning on the job exactly and like I never chased controversy I ended up in a lot of controversial situations or like situations that were turned into controversies because I don't necessarily think half of them were actually what I was saying but I was very naive in how in not thinking how could this be taken by a society that's unwilling to talk about racism how could this be taken by a society that's unwilling or unused to actually hearing a trans person talk or even seeing a trans person move exist um so you know unfortunately being a trans person has turned into something controversial when you know i think that the controversial thing should be that transphobic hate crimes rise year on year yeah that trans women are more likely to be attacked than to attack somebody in a public space it's just you know we're living in the upside down yeah um so I don't know I feel like yes um I try to just ease up on myself as well and when I have like a thought that moves through my head that isn't that kind to myself I ask myself where it's where is it coming from rather than just accepting that it's true yeah and I think for a long time I just accepted that it's true it's like yeah you really suck like you are what these people say about you you this that and the third and sometimes you're just exhausted yeah we all gotta get better at that just going it's just a thought it's just a thought let it go that's like meditation yeah it's like not blocking the thoughts out it's allowing the thoughts to come through and leave it behind yeah so yeah I feel like a lot of a lot of the times my unkind thoughts are like anxiety sometimes it's insecurity sometimes it's because I'm overtired overstretched spending myself in and just accept that I'm a human being and that feeling of like if I do this then I'm going to feel better if I do that I'm going to feel better like that is just kind of like a human urge yeah And it's not because I'm actually lacking.

43:09It's just because we are all human and these are natural feelings. I mean, going back to, you know, someone asking you that question, did you chase, you know, controversial topics or whatever, you know, that line of questioning is. Your new book, Talk To Me, focuses around difficult conversations and encouraging us, whether it's in activism or just within your own family, to have those chats. So it doesn't have to be about big global topics, but, you know, inter-family scenarios, whatever it might be. I think the British are particularly bad at this. We're not very good at having awkward conversations or tough conversations or confronting people.

43:49We tend to suppress and then be very resentful is kind of like the norm. We start a cultural war. Yeah. But, you know, very early on in your public career, you were forced into, there was no like easing in. And, you know, I did a bunch of kids TV and just talked utter shit for years on the telly before I got anywhere near having a deep conversation. Shout out to Diggin' It. Shout out. We love it. But you were straight into it. You were straight into it. You're on live TV. You're often on big news breakfast TV shows or news outlets talking about really punchy issues without any guidance, I'm imagining.

44:26I mean, do you what do you wish you'd known then that you know now that has enabled you to write a book like this? Well, I mean, I think also it's worth mentioning that that was largely out of survival and necessity. Of course. I lost my job and I was thrown to the wolves, you know, and it just kind of felt very like, you know, I needed to stand up for myself. And it just, sorry, it's really hard to like go back to that place. It just feels like it's and I felt like that was the hardest part to watch. of the film like the reliving of just how brutal that was because it wasn't just the UK press it was the worldwide press I was seeing myself be discussed in South Africa America the Netherlands Australia like that's not normal to go from and before that happened I just got out of an abusive relationship that I was in for years.

45:30It was coercive and it was controlling and I had such little self-esteem. I had such little sense of self. I didn't know what was going on a lot of the time because as a way of coping with being controlled and being shouted at and being belittled and you know he was controlling what I was wearing who my friends were he'd driven a wedge between me and my mom I just didn't really know I didn't feel real I just had my my personhood stripped away from me and then I was starting to like build myself back up and you know I booked the job with L 'Oreal and you know it's the first trans woman to work with L 'Oreal and like probably one of the first trans women to work with a big beauty brand in the UK and it all just really fell apart and then suddenly all of the abuse from my relationship became the general public and the media so I really felt like in that moment you need to fight for yourself you have just come out of an abusive relationship and now it's the world I didn't have any other choices that or give in to feelings of not being here and thankfully those voices were quieter than they have been in other situations I saw that moment as an opportunity to advocate for myself in a way that I hadn't been able to advocate in my abusive relationship I felt completely silenced in that and I felt terrified of him and I was just like I'm not going to let the general public terrify me I'm not going to let the media bully me or like kind of tell me that I'm an awful person for saying that like racism is a system that's set up to benefit the white race like that's just unfortunately a fact of society that is really uncomfortable for a society that hasn't ever talked about racism but we needed to talk about it and then you know cut to 2020 and everybody's on that page and I'm relieved there's there was an element of kind of like well where were you guys in 2017 but you let that go and you're like okay well this is what you wanted in the first place you can't be resentful that people are now on the same page as you saying what you said yes you lost your job uh for saying it but maybe we wouldn't have people wouldn't have felt you know comfortable talking about it if they hadn't you know gotten the ball rolling and I do think that that unfortunately for me was a watershed moment in you know opening up a conversation about how we talk about racism in the UK it's just uh it was it was it was a tough it was a tough moment yeah I mean I can't imagine you know watching that back on the documentary it's it's a tough watch seeing you go through it and you know it's fucking awful having people attack you like it's shit I've not had it in in the same way as you obviously but I've certainly been on that horrible end of people giving you shit about things or it feels like it's very noisy everyone's saying the same thing to you or saying unkind things I definitely have my own version of might feel extreme to say PTSD but I think at times it's felt like that where I don't want to do certain jobs anymore I don't feel safe in certain jobs anymore I think safety is a key word in this conversation because you still put yourself in these situations out of necessity again and also because you it's a duty perhaps but it's also passion activism that you still have to go on live tv you still have to have debates about your human rights and I wonder for you what the hangover of that is you know for me if I put myself in a situation that reminds me of a horrible time.

49:50I go into fight or flight. I feel like I'm leaving my body. I go into shock. I still don't really want to do that. I still avoid certain jobs hugely because it doesn't suit my nervous system and what I experienced. For you, do you still have those feelings for a start? And if so, what are you doing to cope with those tricky conversations you're having, the questions you're being asked that are really uncomfortable, the stories you're having to tell that might even re-traumatise you slightly? be well I mean it's the same I don't do certain things like I won't debate my existence on television I'm not going on to some of the shows or segments that I went on earlier on in my career because I don't know I feel like also we're in different times we're 10 years past that and I feel like you know debating whether or not trans people are real we yeah hello so I feel like I won't indulge certain things and I think that we've all got a responsibility to not indulge those things because a lot of the time it's actually intentional to get us stuck on something um the reality is trans people are here we will always be here we have always been here it's going to be a long and miserable life for these people that have invested so much in eradicating trans people because you can't it's like trying to erase resistance or hope you can't do it the natural being of a human is to want to exist and yeah you can make it hard for people to exist but I just think that trans people you know you go back in time and we were seen in a completely different way in indigenous cultures seen as like people that were the most plugged in spiritually that saw past boundaries and, you know, rigid ways of thinking, like the shaman or that kind of thing.

51:46And, you know, I feel like you go back to the 80s and trans women are responsible for sparking the queer rights movement in America. I just feel like an immense sense of pride for being trans. And it's not because I think I'm better or anything like that. I think we should all feel proud of being who we are. I think it's a beautiful thing to be a cisgender woman. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to bring life into this world, I think that's amazing. But I don't think that's all that being a cisgender woman is. I think that we are all individuals. And I think the way that my transness interacts with who I am as a person, I feel proud.

52:24And I think that we should all feel proud. But, you know, when you've got the government and the media consistently telling you that you should be ashamed of who you are, you learn. And I think it's a very similar thing. You know that certain spaces aren't safe. So, you know, I won't indulge certain media outlets. I won't put myself in a situation where I'm invited to go and debate on television, you know, whether or not trans people should be segregated or not. It's like it's like asinine and I think it's extremely insulting, actually. So I don't know. I feel like I try to be a little bit more dynamic.

53:07I like to think about how can we push this conversation forward? I like to think about what is actually a constructive use of my time rather than pandering to existing systems. The Supreme Court ruling actually with that, no trans voice or organisation was heard. so there was a lot of um organizations for cisgender women's rights um who are largely anti-trans that were heard but there was no voice for the trans community which is so wild because the legal system is meant to be about fairness and it can't be fair if both sides aren't heard even people who have committed murder have the chance to say their piece in court.

53:51Trans people weren't even given the same right as a different kind of court case, but still it's the legal system. You should be able to say your bit. So I've teamed up with Good Law Project, which is an organization that are actually taking legal action in response to what's happening. and we filmed a film that was projected onto the Supreme Court and we said what we would say if we had had the opportunity to say these things and it went on social media and it got a really great reaction a lot of people didn't even know that trans people hadn't had the opportunity to say anything in court and they were like this is wild how was this allowed to happen so I think ways of educating the public in a way that isn't just going down the lens of sensationalism or controversy or soundbites or misinformation or the opportunity that someone would take to misquote me.

54:51I think just being a little bit more creative with how I do things is difficult, it's hard and I think it's a constant thing that you need to be checking in on yourself with.

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56:52But not to say that you shouldn't, because I think also what you cleverly articulate in the book is that so many people feel like, what's the point? Nothing I can say is going to change anything. You know, my tiny voice. And if you're sat at home thinking, I'm really passionate about whatever it might be. It could be animal rights or whatever, whatever your thing is. There's no point me saying anything, doing anything because no one will listen. And I think a lot of people feel apathy towards big systems that are in place because it feels so out of their reach. But actually, two things that you state in the book, which again are like things we know, but we need a reminder of.

57:30Like in the 18th and 19th centuries, women could be jailed for wearing trousers. And if no one had done anything about that, you and I, who are both wearing skirts today, would be carted off by the police. and then also as we all know looking at 1967 you know it was illegal to be gay in england and wales and that's that's not long ago that's yesterday yes so so i think remind us of those big points and that these changes are only made because a few people decided to start speaking up and then gathered and rallied and got an allegiance together to make some noise it's would you say it's always worth it if you've got a cause in your head that you believe in it's always worth it it's always worth it saying your bit always I think that we firstly talk to me is about having difficult conversations but it's primarily about understanding your own personal power yeah and that your own personal power matters not just to win an argument or to engage in conversations as a competition your power and what you believe in doesn't exist so that you can be right in certain conversations all the time what you think matters period what you believe matters and I think if we only engage in conversations with the desire to change that person's mind and if we don't ever express what we think because we feel like we can't change that person's mind then it diminishes what we actually believe in it diminishes our personal power and we feel dominated we're like no one's going to listen to me so i'm not going to say anything you silence yourself yeah and you become siloed again prison imprisoned in your own mind i think when I started writing the book I wrote it for a younger me I didn't have the means that I have now in terms of you know security mental health self-worth those kind of things not just like financial means but like you know I didn't know myself in the way that I did now so I think this book Talk To Me is really an amalgamation of everything I've learned but also what I've learned of living with myself and how I communicate that with others and I thought the other day I think that we have all taken too much of a cue from politicians when we're communicating with each other conversation has become a debate and when you're debating someone you're driving home one singular point largely you're not actually listening to the other person or trying to understand where their point or their beliefs are rooted you're conversing with that person to win and oftentimes two things can be true at once and the progress of it all actually exists in the middle a lot of the time because we need to live with each other yes so even if someone doesn't believe what you believe you need to find a way of being cool with them and they need to find a way of being cool with you too I'm not particularly a big fan of organized religion but I'm not going to stop people from practicing it I'm not going to say you can't worship this god because I don't think that god in any sense is like real I'm very spiritual but I've got a lot of criticisms about about organized religion and I think that that's fine but as long as you're respectful of the fact that people have faith and people have their personal faith and everybody should be allowed to practice whatever faith they have and also that faith setup or that religious setup should be able to be critiqued as well because certain things happen in powerful organizations that you know should be talked about also I don't know I feel like everything should be should be talked about we shouldn't not be able to talk yeah and also like you know the book is is so nuanced because as well as saying yes we should stand up for our beliefs we should have the space to talk about them you're also saying there has to be room to make mistakes there has to be room to go wrong yes and there has to be room for forgiveness and perhaps further conversation about all of it and room so therefore we can grow like nobody in the history of humanity has gone through life without changing their mind for a star exactly and i think when you take that into the trans conversation and especially people that are arguing for trans women not to be allowed into women's spaces i think that there are a cross-section of women who just don't like trans people and are using it as as a opportunity to ostracize and segregate but i think that there's also a lot of women who are traumatized as women and don't know any trans people have been manipulated by the media into thinking that trans women are men who are predatory and then are then put into position thinking i need to defend myself i need to defend my womanhood i need to defend other women by not allowing these men quote unquote into women only spaces i think that instead of just ostracizing these women who are expressing these concerns as long as they're being respectful i think that respect needs to be on both sides let's just have a conversation not like demonize people who are just lacking education and lacking actual understanding about how this could actually make their life harder too but if there's not respect on both sides then there's no conversation to be had i can't be having a conversation with a cisgender woman who refuses to understand that i'm a human being too who's also under threat of misogyny who's also scared about her physical and safety who's also experiencing mental health challenges because of the rise in misogyny rates who can't walk down the road without being catcored and feeling like I need to like cross the road on at night when the man's walking towards me.

1:04:00All of these things are shared, but we don't know that if we don't talk to each other. So like it's difficult because it's like a chicken and egg situation. It's like kind of we need to talk, but I can't talk to you because you're not being respectful to me. And then I feel hostile to you because you're not seeing my humanity. I just want all of us to understand that a lot of identity has become tribalism. and it's stopping us from understanding actually that we're all human beings and we all deserve safety dignity respect opportunity the basic things yeah i mean looking at the documentary and having read the book there is a lot of hope in your voice even though there's a lot of shit going on and even though it is a noisy conversation and one you often find yourself in the center of you do have hope you do have hope that there is a positive future ahead for the trans community yeah I mean I do I mean I if I didn't then I would spiral into despair yeah and I do have an optimism with regards to uh to to the people I I think a lot of people are easily led.

1:05:12I think that a very small minority of people are leaders and then I think that an even smaller number of those people use their leadership for good. So I feel like with the right education and unfortunately we often seem to have to learn the hard way, I have faith because I know that what's being proposed won't work and it won't just not work for trans people it won't work for all people because it hasn't worked before it makes everyone's life hard if you look at how racial segregation didn't work if you look at how chastising humiliating and demonizing gay men didn't work in the 1980s how not talking about alternative family dynamics or even the fact that queer people exist in schools didn't work this isn't gonna work so I have faith in just logic but I've also got faith in my community I'm so plugged in to the love of my community and like the love of women I have faith in women and like womanhood and I know that womanhood isn't this exclusive thing I feel like there's a very loud voice that is anti-trans that is plugged into government that's plugged into the media that's getting a lot of attention but I don't think that that's indicative of all women because I really feel like there's a kindness with women and I'm going to choose to think about that.

1:06:59Good. When it's, you know, difficult times, I'm going to plug into the love that I've always felt from my queer community. I'm going to plug into the resilience of my black community. I'm lucky to be a member of multiple marginalized communities that are extremely resilient and have gotten through hard times before. And I'm going to learn from my ancestors and I'm going to look at my queer elders who got through the HIV and AIDS crisis. police were barging into queer bars with rubber gloves on because they didn't want to catch aids or hiv from gay men in the 1980s that wasn't that long ago nope that was the kind of born in 81 babe like it's not that long ago that's the kind of idiocy yeah that gay men were facing back then women as you said couldn't wear trousers yes at one point sad in the 90s same-sex parents were doxed by the press and now it's not a thing no for a lot of people it's not a thing yeah gay marriage I mean I talk about um ex-prime minister Boris Johnson talking about gay marriage um being akin to bestiality and like now if someone's against gay marriage then we're like what's wrong with you why are you standing in the way of someone's love yeah so like I've got faith that time does reveal idiocy and I've also got faith in the kindness of people yeah so I am going to focus pull my focus onto the right things yeah and when these voices are hateful and loud that's exactly what they are they're hateful and loud but they're not the majority yeah exactly hey I'd love to know to somehow finish off this chat that I could sort of keep on going for like the next week with this chat quite frankly we've not even scratched the surface I always I'm so sorry if you're listening to this I go off on tangents so often that's what this is for this is what podcasting is we don't want concise answers we want I do want all of it I do feel like I should go back though when you talked about like how do I cope and I feel like I do have a tendency to be quite avoidant because I feel like we're all struggling in this moment yeah I do hide a lot of how I struggle um because I feel like I've got a responsibility to my community to be strong and like that has proven difficult and in the documentary you can see it yeah um at one point my hair started to fall out and half of my face was paralyzed because I was so stressed and I was dealing with grief whilst also being dragged through the media and just seeing you know a 16 year old child be murdered in broad daylight in a park in the UK a trans woman be dragged through the street by her hair in America and you know just politicians just like act like it none of this is happening and yeah I mean I I I feel like I've got my boyfriend says that my face has subtitles but I've also got the best poker face ever and it depends on who I'm talking to I like that you're I've never heard that your face has subtitles i can either be the most obvious person or like i you will never know how i'm feeling yeah and unfortunately i have gotten through life experiences very good at not letting people know how i'm feeling people around me can see it as plain as day but there was times when we were shooting this documentary like i shot the cover of cosmopolitan magazine and then a few weeks later I was in rehab like dealing with um PTSD symptoms because of everything that happened in the media and also the abusive relationship that happened before it I didn't have any time to process that abuse because then the abuse was like coming thick and fast through social media and through the mainstream as well so like I think it was really around COVID that I started to process everything and then everything became a lot and then we started filming the documentary so I think I was processing things in real time yeah in the documentary and then Ava died and then I crashed and I was like this is just too much like I can't give and give and give and give I mean battered and battered and battered and I started having some real serious conversations about you know how I continue how do I be a voice for my community and take better care of myself and it feels difficult because you know this documentary was we were filming it for three years and we didn't know that this was going to happen it's just the timing it feels like the best time for the film and like the hardest time for me personally because I'm releasing it into an extremely hostile environment which means that it's like really necessary for a lot of people that need to see it but then also like it makes me feel really unsafe um so I don't know I I think it's a constant it's like a it's a constant check-in yeah and it's like some days I'll be really good and some days my anxiety will be so bad that I can't get out of bed so I think it's just checking in on myself constantly making sure that you know I'm not pushing myself too hard um I've got an incredible team and I've got amazing friends and an incredible boyfriend so I lean on them a lot yeah good I don't have anybody in my team that's encouraging me to do things that you know would be to the detriment yeah of my wellness no good it's so important you just got to keep checking in daily inventory how am I doing what's going on where would you say your happy place is my happy place i mean it has to be home yeah with your cats i've got two cats i love your cat i'm a cat person so i saw your cats on the dock i was like okay we need to hang out these cats what's that is it sphinx they're two sphinxes they're different kinds of sphinx they are incredible i know one of them looks like an eight like the alien emoji i'm obsessed with that cat when i saw it i was like this is my dream cat she's my alarm clock she's an absolute nightmare there and now that it's summer i forgot that when it's summer she wakes me up even yeah like i'm just like girl um so yeah um but i think it's at home um it's doing really normal things um it's like ordering takeout like girl dinner indian yeah chinese picky bits film yeah friends animals trampling all over us yeah like gossip you know getting the tea from your girls getting the gays over getting the tea from the gays because that's the good tea that's the good tea but I don't know I just very basic things I've set up my life I've got a very full private life and there's a difference between a private life and a personal life and when you're in the public eye you need to make sure that you've got a very clear distinguish between the two because there's elements of my personal life that I'm willing to share but my private life is off limits yeah and I have filled that with love yeah and you know I'm lucky to have parents who understand and I didn't want them to be part of the documentary and they didn't want to be part the documentary because they understand that I need that private life and then you know my public life is is you know largely full with this kind of thing and like you know um talking about things that I feel matter yeah but um I don't know I feel like I've I've got it right in terms of how my life is set up so my happy place is my private life and making sure that I've built a life that feels good for me and not a life that looks good for other people yeah that's so important doesn't matter what anyone else thinks your life is like or looks like it's if you're content if you're happy that's all that matters make sure you've got people that allow you to be messy yes too right well as i said i thought the documentary is just incredible i love reading this book it's really motivating it means so much that you like it because i really respect your opinion I love it.

1:15:58I don't like it. I love them both. And it was just a joy to read and a joy to watch and just wish you all the success with both of them. Thank you so much, Munro. Thank you, fam. Oh, Munro, thank you so much. That was just an incredible chat. Informative and moving and eye-opening at times and essential, I would say. Munro's book, Talk To Me, is out on the 5th of June and her documentary, Love and Rage, will be in cinemas from the 10th of June. Please go see it. It is so beautifully made. Right, I'm going to love you and leave you with this gorgeous exclusive chapter from Kirsty Gallagher's new audiobook.

1:16:34It's called Your Cosmic Purpose and it's out on the 5th of June. Until next time, a huge thank you again to Munro, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you lot, I love ya.

1:17:07Chapter 6. Heal your worth wound. Every part of you is exactly as your soul intended it to be in this lifetime. One of the greatest ways that you can begin to live your cosmic purpose is to heal your worth wound. That deep-rooted belief that you are less than. That constant feeling of never being enough. And ultimately, that profound sense of being unworthy. You can never fully be all of who your soul came here to be if you're worried that you're not good enough. or about the shape of your thighs or a wrinkle on your forehead. This is yet another way that the current systems keep you disconnected from the power of your divinity by making you feel like you are never enough.

1:18:05When you identify too much with human you and your looks, material possessions and gaining approval and validation from the world outside of you, you disconnect from the beauty, power, essence, magnificence and magic of your soul. When you walk through the world feeling like you're not enough, you suffocate the life force energy of your soul. This isn't to say that you don't need to make the best of yourself or take care of yourself. Your human body is the vessel for your soul. so you want to take the best care of it possible and feel as good in it as you can so that your soul can live, experience and express fully through you.

1:18:54Get enough sleep, eat well, hydrate, exercise and learn how to breathe properly, meditate, walk in nature and keep your energy clear so that your soul essence can flow through you. Yes, your soul made you perfectly But you can't abuse and not take care of your human vessel And expect life force energy to be able to flow through it clearly The problem comes When you're doing things because you feel that you need to do them To fit in or be accepted Because you feel you should look a certain way Or because you don't feel good enough without it I need you to remember that there is an entire industry that profits from you never feeling like you're enough.

1:19:46One of the most powerful ways to take someone's power is to make them dislike themselves. And we live in a world that's designed to make you feel like you're not enough just as you are. This has you constantly chasing things outside of you and feeling like you need something out there to make you feel worthy. or that you need to look or behave in a certain way to be enough. I want you to come to see that it's all already within you. When you begin to take back your worth and realise who you truly are, your life will change. Your soul created you just the way you are for a reason. You are perfect in your soul's eyes.

1:20:36and I wish that each one of you could see yourself through the eyes of your soul or even what I see when I look at you. I see your soul shining through, your inner beauty radiating outwards, your unique expression of the universe in a human body and everything that makes you, you. You are radiant and magical and perfect just as you are. Every part of you is exactly as your soul intended it to be in this lifetime. But we can only see you when you allow your soul to express and radiate out of you. when you stop squishing your soul's essence by worrying too much about whether you look the way the latest beauty standard tells you that you should look or you're behaving the way you should be behaving in order to fully live your cosmic purpose and allow your soul to radiate and experience life through you you need to heal your wounds around your sense of self and not feeling like enough?

1:21:56Undoing your worth wounds. Let's begin by reflecting on where your worth wounds have come from. What has happened in your life that has made you feel like you're not enough? Who or what has made you doubt yourself and question your worth? Where does the belief come from, that you're not worthy? What are the stories that you tell yourself about who you are and what you do or don't deserve? What has made you forget your divine cosmic essence and who you truly are? In order to expand into your full soul self, you need to let go of all that keeps you from being able to fully love, accept and approve of yourself.

1:22:47Do healing around any ways in which you felt different, an outsider, or not believed in yourself, your gifts and what you have to offer to the world. Hold those versions of you who felt this way and let them know that you accept and love all parts of you and that it is safe to be all of who you are. It's time to realise that you are enough just as you are and that everything that makes you, you is needed in the world. It's time to embrace your quirks, uniqueness and everything about you that makes you different and see this as a superpower rather than a flaw. You are perfect just the way you are.

1:23:40And when you begin to embrace your unique soul essence and let your soul's light shine through you, that's when you irradiate your true worth. Because my love, As you begin to allow your soul to weave and express through you and listen once more to the stirrings of your heart and soul you will begin to know yourself, understand yourself accept yourself, value yourself and love yourself once more and as you do this you will no longer accept anything less than you deserve You will begin to know that you are worthy and deserving And more than enough just as you are From here, you will begin to trust yourself And believe in yourself enough to listen to your intuition and inner knowing And follow where your soul wants you to go You will be empowered to care for, nurture, nourish and look after yourself as the cosmic being that you are.

1:24:57It's only from a place of being fully anchored, grounded and at home in yourself and your values, worth and sense of self that you will ever be able to truly make change, move forwards and do things differently in your life. this is the only place from which you can truly know what you want and then believe in yourself enough to get it what the world really needs is you being all of you that's a huge part of your cosmic purpose to bring you to the world which you can't do when you don't feel worthy or good enough. To do this, you need to once more connect back to the essence of your soul, as it's only when you're disconnected from the divine and living too much from your ego that you will feel like you're not enough.

1:25:57The way to create a life of meaning and purpose is to know yourself, love yourself and accept yourself as the soul that you are. All of you. The complex, raw, vulnerable, messy, perfectly imperfect human you. Alongside the powerful, wise, magical, all-knowing soul you. As soon as you can begin to show up in the world as who you truly are without questioning it, that's when you become free. When you are truly rooted, anchored and grounded into your sense of self, you no longer need to look for as much from the outside world. You self-source your worth, approval, validation and permission from within you.

1:26:55And that's when real change and transformation becomes possible. You begin to know from deep within you what you are worthy, deserving and capable of. I'd love you to begin to feel into who you are when you are at your very best and most purposeful. When you are your truest, most authentic soul self. what makes you feel good, alive, like your best, most soulful self. Let more of this version of you begin to shine through and then start to embody that energy. You see, it's not enough to just tell yourself that you're worth more or that you'll believe in yourself more. As very often, especially in times of difficulty or doubt, your ego mind will simply tell you no you aren't or no you won't.

1:27:54You can tell yourself something until you're blue in the face and it won't make too much difference until you begin to feel and embody it. That's where the true wisdom and awareness gnosis lies. It doesn't come from the mind. It comes from the body. The more you can embody deep levels of worth, power, confidence, and value, and know who you are deep in your bones, the more you begin to embody your soul and your new beliefs, and the more your life will change. When you feel a sense of worth from deep within you and a sense of trust deep in your soul, that's when you're going to truly show up in the world differently.

1:28:45You simply won't accept anything less than you deserve. When you accept and love yourself for all of who you are, you won't be available for anything or anyone that doesn't reflect that. These things just won't come into your consciousness anymore. Every now and then. They may show up to give you a little test of whether you're holding that energetic boundary and knowing what you deserve. But for the most part, those things will stay away from you. I finally want to mention that many people come to the spiritual journey from a place of not feeling good enough. When you approach your spiritual journey or anything in life from a place of lack and doing it because you're not good enough or need fixing or because you feel worthless in some way.

1:29:38It's going to feel hopeless, like hard work, and as though you're always searching for that one elusive thing that will make you feel complete. You need to approach this journey from a place of empowerment and finding your way back to your soul and more of your authentic soul self, not because there is anything wrong with you or missing. All that is truly missing is your connection to the essence and truth of who you are. And once you find that, you'll realise that you are inherently worthy just because you're alive. There never was and never will be anything wrong with you. You just got a little lost along the way and forgot the magnificence of your soul.

1:30:32Whispers from your soul. Where do you currently derive most of your sense of self-worth? Who or what makes you doubt and question yourself the most and why? Who are you at your most purposeful, soulful, wild and free self? Now that you have started to heal your worth wounds and realize that you are more than enough just as you are, let's move to the mind and remember that you are not your thoughts.

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1:32:10by law. CT &C's 21 Plus sponsored by Chamba Casino.