My work makes me a better parent! Coping with mum guilt and taking the pressure off

0:00Fearne Cotton: I am thrilled to have been chosen as one of Apple Podcasts 2026 creators we love. Hey look, if you've just found the show, welcome. You can see all of my favourite episodes, shows and the other featured creators on Apple Podcasts. Enjoy. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Now, today, it's a biggie. Parenting, working and the guilt of not quite being present in either. I remember once this morning, I went into the loo and there was a young woman in there crying. And she went, I just feel so bad because I left the baby. I really worry that I'm often preoccupied when I'm around my children.

0:42And I said to her, I absolutely know exactly how you feel. I was feeding Eva on demand. So I just handed her to my mum. and I just said, just look after her while I go and do this meeting. So the kids could say to me, why are you doing that? And it would be huge because I'd think, yes, you're right, I could be here. Having the twins and getting back to rowing, I was a much more present parent because I kind of compartmentalised my life. No, my entire identity is mother and I don't care about acting or anything anymore. I'll be like replying to a message, taking them to the park at the same time, trying to be like a present parent but never fully present in anything.

1:19Because it's not that deep. Nobody needs like sandwiches cut into heart shapes.

1:22Fearne Cotton: Well, here we go. We are heading into the summer holidays. And if you've got kids, this time can be a real test. That belief that women can have it all. It drives me absolutely mad, quite frankly, because the answer to that question, I believe, is no. No, we cannot. If you are a parent, even if you don't work, it is such an unbelievable juggle. to keep your kids occupied for six weeks is bonkers. And there are so many things that you need to, we don't need to worry about, we just do worry about. Like getting them off screens requires some sort of activity, which can be expensive and time consuming and exhausting, etc.

2:06Fearne Cotton: It can also obviously be a lot of fun. When you strike gold and have a great day out or a trip with your kids, oh my God, obviously there's nothing like it. But it is also bloody stressful. and then throw work into the mix or you might be caring for your parents at the same time as your kids. You just feel sort of pulled in many different directions constantly and the summer holidays is the biggest chunk of time where we have to try and do everything and be everything. I can't speak for all of you lovely lot because you'd all have your own circumstances and feelings about this subject matter, but my experience of the summer holidays is it's a delightful shit show.

2:48Fearne Cotton: Bits of it I love. If I get to go away and have a proper holiday, I'm all in. I'll try and put my phone in a drawer where I can, just check emails and stuff in the evenings and I'll have a jolly good time. But the bit before that and after it is usually total chaos, a mixture of trying to keep up with all the happy place stuff and record podcasts and radio shows and all the other bits and bobs I'm doing I'm working on a new tv project at the moment on top of feeling like I'm doing a good enough job as a mum which I think is probably my little Achilles heel feeling like I'm not ever doing enough I know many of you will feel the same and I worry that I'm not a present enough parent at times or good enough I think all of us feel the same you know we're trying to do a million things at once and mum guilt is gross it feels so horrible and icky physically and mentally and it does no one any good I definitely try and eradicate it by just halting those negative thoughts which don't benefit anyone I guess an example is I recently as I said I'm starting this new tv project and I actually just had a frank conversation with my kids who are now old enough to understand that I need to go and work and I just said look I'm not going to be around quite as much and I'm going to miss you so massively when I am away and I love you loads and I hope we can like keep facetiming and texting through those travel days where I'm not about but it means that when I get back we can have a really nice holiday together and I'm just sort of more explicit about why I'm going to work that could even be problematic so some people some mothers are very pro saying I'm going to work because I mean some of us have to and you know that's that but also some of us want to we love our work and we shouldn't shy away from saying I've chosen to go and do this project which feels a lot more uncomfortable look it's a big subject there's loads to get our teeth into I'm not sure any of us breeze through the summer holidays feeling entirely sane so I'm really hoping that this episode of brilliant women helps hugely.

4:55Fearne Cotton: There's absolutely no right way to do parenting or work life and actually what works for you and your family is going to change over time too. So today I thought we could listen back to some of the brilliant women who've been on Happy Place to hear how they both feel about and manage the mad mix of emotions around wanting to be as present as possible in a million different areas of life. You're going to hear from Sophie Ellis-Bexter, Helen Glover, Paloma Faith, Ruth Langsford and Joanna Page. But we'll start with Emma Greed, who reckons parenting actually isn't that deep in the first place. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.

5:38Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

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7:25Fearne Cotton: All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

7:50Fearne Cotton: My favourite part of the book. I literally have to put it down for a moment. Almost just taking my surroundings and go, let me just let that really sink in, guys. You actually say parenting. It's not that deep. It's not. We've all gone mad. We've gone fucking mad. We've gone so mental. As if our parents gave a toss about the stuff we're worrying about. If there was an apple and a packet of crisps in the house, my mum was like, the four of them will be fine. Here's the thing. We have got to a point in culture because where are we, right? We're sitting in this place where women are constantly asked, like, how do you balance it all?

8:27Meanwhile, my husband, who does exactly the same, never asked a sausage of that question. No. Ever, ever, ever. The other thing is the assumption that I have four kids and they're all at home starving because I'm not there. So it's like somewhere between the two things. I'm like, neither is true. Here's the truth. Our kids are not a project. They are their own human beings. And guess what? They can figure it out. They need love and they need guidance. And they need to know that when stuff goes wrong, they can come to their mom and have a cuddle and I'm going to listen to them. They do not need me to usher them through every little moment of their life.

9:02If some shit goes down in school, I don't need to speak to that parent. I'm like, figure it out. Talk to the kid. Like you're having a hard moment. Like, you know, I need the teachers to do their job and I need the lunch ladies to do their job and I need the doctors to do their job. And by the way, I need the dad to do his job too and the rest of the family. But it cannot be the sole preserve of a mother to get the kids from A to Z and to worry about what they're eating, what they're doing, what their intake is, what their, you know, after school stuff is. It's like, guys, it's not that deep. Nobody needs like sandwiches cut into heart shapes.

9:35Nobody. Oh, fuck that. Not one person.

9:37Fearne Cotton: Like crying out loud. Just take a step back. Also, the inter-parenting stuff that we're meant to be dealing with. All the WhatsApps? All the chats? On a Sunday when I get a WhatsApp and I'm not even joking, it's this. It's a rule along. And I'm like, how am I meant to ingest all of this? And like, what the hell are we doing? Add to the emails from the school. I can't. Which I don't read. No, good. I love the one you put that in there. And also the little microaggressions that only women get, and this one hit deeply, is when you turn up to school and maybe you've not done the school run for three days and someone goes, oh, I've not seen you for a long time.

10:14Fearne Cotton: And I'm like, yeah, because I've been working, babes. Do you want to ask their dad that? That's where the anger comes back and I attack his security guard. What do you mean? What do you mean? It's so annoying. It's so annoying. or like you say you've forgotten then it's bloody i don't know they've got to dress up as a giraffe day or whatever shit it is it's like it's it's absurd bring back 80s parenting listen here's the thing i know for a fact that when you are able to take a step back because all families are different right all families decide to put their energy in different places i am not somebody that is able to take my kids to and from school every day i am not at like the parent galas i don't volunteer at the school.

10:56If my kid is running a race, like I am there. If it's something that's important to Lola or Gray or Lake or Rafi, I'll be there. But the truth is that we've kind of been sucked into a lot of performative parenting. That means that it's actually not about your family values. It's what you think you're supposed to do. So again, I think it's like a vision for anything. Like what kind of family do I want to have? I want a family who eats dinner together most nights. That's important to me. I like to sit there and be like, what happened in your day? talk you know some shit about some other family like I enjoy like that thing I like to be the person that wakes my kids up in the morning that's it yeah that's my lot do you know what I mean like I can't like you know I have four kids I can't brush everybody's hair I can't get everybody ready I don't get to do all of the things that I'd like to do but when I've got those two things the dinner and I get them up in the morning I am winning like that's it but it can't be a laundry list of 17 things and guess what my kids are seeing two things a they are able to self-advocate they are able to figure out mom like there's a school trip you know sign in thing that needs sign in i'm like great it's really good that you know that and i didn't have to troll through 27 emails to get to it so that piece is good they also are watching somebody go out and live and fulfill their dreams and that is important the whole point of our lives is like self-actualization so i think that i'm a good role model for my kids at the end day and I don't actually think that ushering them through

12:22Fearne Cotton: life is that good for them either I'm so glad that you just finished that sentence in a way I was not expecting because I thought you were about to say they're seeing somebody go out dot dot dot and work really hard because I'm in that like martyrdom headset of they just need to see that I'm working really hard and it's like no they're seeing you go out and me go out and do something that I love that you love doing. That you love. It's so important. Can I tell you a little story? I think that I had trained my kids back in the day into imagining that when I left home, I wasn't having a good time.

12:52So when I travel, I'd be like, I'll be back in like two sleeps and I love you so much and back out the door. I remember my daughter Lola saying to me, oh God, mum, I'm so sorry you have to go back to New York. And I was like, Lola, can I be honest with you? I'm going to like see a bunch of my friends, going to sleep in a hotel room, diagonally across the bed, room service. I'm going to have such a great time. She's like, oh, you are? Have a great time and I'll see you on Thursday. And I was like, oh, it was me. I trained her into thinking that's something that I didn't want to do because I felt like that was the message.

13:22Whereas if you go, bye, darlings. I'll be back in a few days. I get to do da, da, da, da, da. I'm going to go and speak to Fern Cotton. I'm going to hang out with my friends in London. I'm going to do my work and then I'll be back and la, la, la, la. Again, so much of this stuff is about how are you positioning this stuff in your family? is it something for you to feel guilty about or are you actually just teaching your children the

13:44Fearne Cotton: way to behave yes that has been such a wake-up call for me wake up i needed waking up because honestly like even whilst i was reading your book i got offered an opportunity that will take me out and about a little bit more than normal and i you know i like like you i like having the dinners i like getting my kids up i go boxing with my son every monday like there's some non-negotiables that are just happening. And this was an opportunity that I thought, I really am going to enjoy that and I'm going to love it. And I actually think it would be really good for my career. There's just lots of benefits to all of it.

14:17Fearne Cotton: But it means that on a certain few days, I'm going to be doing overnight and I started to spiral. I'm a terrible mom and blah, blah, blah. And then I read your book and I went, I'm fucking doing it. Yeah. I'm literally saying yes. Of course you should do it. I know, but I don't think women are told, we're not told this. No. We're not told it ever. Too seldomly we're not told it. And again, too seldomly we are apologizing even to one another. So like there's this kind of performative one-uppance when a group of women can get together. And it's like, who's suffering the most? Yeah. And I'm like, do you know what?

14:46The suffering Olympics. Like, let's not. Like, let's not do it. Let's all be honest. And, you know, it's like, I love being with my kids. But after about three hours, I've probably had enough. Like, on a Saturday, I'm like, yeah, I was with you lot from like eight in the morning till 12. and now I'm going to like have an hour on my own. Yeah. Guilt free. What's wrong with that? Like stop it. Like we don't need to feel so guilty about everything.

15:10Fearne Cotton: It's so pointless. How are you with guilt? Because I think this is still, it's a very obvious subject, but I think it is still something that most, maybe parents, but certainly mums feel when they, especially weirdly, when they really like the thing they're doing, whether it's work or something that is recreational, going out with mates, having a nice time. The guilt of choosing that over being with your kid is still this kind of maybe ancestral hangover that we feel so torn apart by it that we then stop enjoying the job or the thing that we're doing because we feel so wracked with guilt. How do you manage that?

15:46Yeah, I think subconsciously when I started my podcast, which you very kindly were my first guest for. Which I loved. So patient with me. I think I subconsciously did start, you know, when you do something and you don't know exactly what you're getting out of a project. Part of the podcast conversation is about was about helping me have permission because I think I was finding the guilt just too much sometimes. And I realized that I had been speaking about my work in a way that minimized it in front of everybody in the house. I was quite dismissive. I didn't give it much status. I'd say I've got to run off and do this thing and I don't really want to be gone.

16:21and of course I'll be missing you and oh I just have to go and I'll be quick back as quick as possible and I just was giving I was making it very small and nobody was it was not helping with the conversation in the house because I'd made work a thing that was a bit small so the kids could say to me why are you doing that or and it would get it would be huge because I think yes you're right why why am I I've got a choice to make I could be here and then after empowering it a bit more I gave it a bit more it got a bit more respect and then they stopped asking me as much how interesting yeah because I'd say yes I've got to go away but I've it's important to me I do these things and I'm really fortunate that I've been booked to do these things because there's so many people out there that do my job and they've asked me to do it and I really want to do it and I want to do it well so I'm going to go and do it and I'll be back before you know it I keep myself available I think that's the thing as they get older it's easier so especially for the older the kids they you know they've got phones if they're at secondary school so um my 12 year old I don't think I've missed a school run no matter where I am in the world I'll FaceTime him when he goes in even if it's like 3am for me wherever I am just because I know he he needs that from me and that's okay it makes me feel better if I know he's feeling good but other part is I just I think I've just prioritized it better because I've stopped talking it down actually yeah but how

17:40Fearne Cotton: How interesting that your tone then informs how they're reacting to it. Because I think we assume it's this inherent thing that as soon as we're gone, everything falls to shit. Whereas actually a lot of the time they're fine. They're so fine. They don't even know you're not there. And if they need you, like you say, you're available, you're around. I mean, how do you compartmentalize? Say you're doing something like, I loved watching you when you did the BAFTAs and I was just like, this is a moment where I was so happy for you. I think I even messaged you afterwards just going, you fucking nailed it.

18:08Fearne Cotton: but also what a moment to have after this hugely long career that you've already successfully been part of, to be at the BAFTAs performing this song that everybody's talking about, like this huge film. It was such a moment. But say you're at something. It was so terrifying, by the way. Of course terrifying. So terrifying. The audience. Oh, my gosh. The audience. Oh, hi, Margot Robbie. Hi. Hey, Robert Downey Jr. I told myself it was a lookalikes convention because I was just like, this is too much for my little brain. It's too much. yeah that was I mean those things moments and I've I think actually around that time that was even then that was only February of last year but I was already feeling a bit like I'm away a lot and Richard actually encouraged me to involve the kids so later on that same month I had I'd been invited to sing Mardi Gras in Sydney and I could take someone with me and I took my then 8 year old Jesse so he became my little date and we had 4 days in Sydney and I think he'll remember it always actually Yeah, just involving them really so that I didn't feel too stretched.

19:10But yeah, I do, of course, I do sometimes feel incredibly guilty still.

19:14Fearne Cotton: It's not gone, but I'm better. And can you quite easily click into, say, you know, we all always have a level of drama going on, whether it's, you know, one kid's refusing to go to an after-school club. They're everyday things, but it's constant. Or a friend's falling out with someone, whatever. And then the next thing you know, you have to really focus because you're on stage or in front of a crowd. Can you switch into work mode quickly? Yeah, I've had to. I don't have any indulgence about that. It's like literally the only way I've been able to do it. But I think in some ways, although sometimes it's the point of ridiculousness, I'll be, I remember actually when I was recording the New Year's Eve show that we did for the BBC and I was in between the two slots, so around midnight, and I had to remember I hadn't sorted a play date out that was happening around that you know those sorts of things so sometimes it'll be really like yeah but I think what the what it's given me which is something I've I think is helpful is that I don't really need any any specific situation to feel ready to do what I do and I think it's allowed it's meant that I've just had to be like so long as I've got you know it's basically I pack it in myself what I need for work I haven't I can't I don't need to have even time to, you know, warm up or anything.

20:31It's like, just get out there. I think that's actually helped me because it's meant I felt more self-sufficient. In 2020, I had the twins and it was exactly at the time of COVID. So I had newborn twins and 18 month old as we went into COVID. And the only bit of fitness equipment in the house was a rowing machine. So I kind of got back on the rowing machine just to keep fit. and I was fully expecting to watch the Tokyo Olympics with my babies on the sofa that summer and then the Olympics got postponed and I suddenly had a year ahead of me in lockdown in the house with the kids and a rowing machine and the potential to make it back and at the time when I first started going back it's just like this annoying athlete trait you have which you get back on a rowing machine you think you're really good again I was like I used to have ignored my scores but I just kept thinking yeah I've still got it I've still got it and but then day on day I kept I just kept going and it actually the the sound of the rowing machine um lulled the twins to sleep so every time it was time for their nap I just put them by the fan of the rowing machine and it sent them to sleep it's a bit like a heartbeat sound you know so genius yeah so it was it was kind of this way of getting them to nap allowing me to do some exercise and after a couple of months my scores were getting really quickly back up to what they used to be and I just started thinking and I was like I wonder that one of the biggest barrier had definitely been the fact that you had to go into training and I'd never wanted to leave my children when they were this young you know I'd had a couple of years with my oldest at this point and I didn't want to leave the twins but I just thought under the shadow of lockdown I could just start training and I could just see if I'm good enough to get back on the team and no one needs to know and so I trained for a few months and then around the Christmas time I was doing really well so it was about five months before the games and I announced that I was going to try and make a comeback and be the first woman to make it to the games as a rower and I mean it was I honestly can't explain the the kind of outpouring of support from the parent community and it's something that I'd never I'd never really had that village before so I had you know the twins in lockdown and Logan who was a toddler but I'd never really found that tribe I've never really found that support I'd never really felt what it what it means when parents get behind parents and when I had this announcement that I was going back I maybe it was because it was lockdown and there hadn't been many stories it was a slow news day or something but it was just so unexpected the my inbox was just full and full and full of messages of parents both mums and dads or just you know grandparents people just saying thank you and this is we're all behind you this is what I want my little girl to see this is we're supporting you and honestly from that from that moment it changed from being something was all about you know what can I do to show you know can I show my little girl something can I can I prove something to the system it became far bigger than that and just about kind of I guess that wider community that showed massive support to me that is so amazing it's so amazing and it's so beautiful so I think

23:54Fearne Cotton: most probably all women would feel that after they've had kids there is this natural loss of identity which will last for differing periods of time depending on your circumstance and level of support and where your head's at at that point. I absolutely felt that. I felt like I didn't have a clue what I liked anymore. A lot of the time that was sort of, I would be confused as to like, do I really want to do this and like it? The guilt feels so huge that I actually can't even action it. So I'm going to park it. My kids are now nine and 11. And I honestly only feel this year that I'm properly, properly back in the flow of today, I've got the day off work and I'm going to paint and I want to do that for me without guilt, without worry.

24:43Fearne Cotton: I've probably got a bit more headspace at this point with their ages. They're at school for the weekdays and sometimes after school clubs. So I can be a little bit more relaxed about my timekeeping. and I feel like I'm coming back to myself in a way. Like the old me is coming back, but with more maturity and wisdom. It's taken me a long time. There've obviously been sort of glimmers of it along the way and I've been lucky enough to work on off throughout being a parent and finding support in different ways. But I think it's the internalized bit of like wondering who you are at this point and how you've changed and whether it's for the better or which bits of you have fallen by the wayside.

25:27Fearne Cotton: I mean, this was quick for you in terms of I'm setting myself this goal, but at what point did you start feeling like, oh, yeah, the old me, the elite athlete is coming back into this body and this mindset? That's such a good question because I think the way you described that is something that I still think I do feel now. Even though I've had this massive thing just happen to me and I've just been at the Olympic Games, I still think, you know, my twins are four and the older one's six. And so, but I still feel in that phase of kind of discovering who I am and what I want and where I'm at. And so I think even though I've done this big thing, it doesn't mean it's given me this huge anchor.

26:11But I do think it's made me a better parent in terms of giving me that identity. and I compare it to when I wasn't rowing and I had my toddler and then having the twins and getting back to rowing. I think that I was a much more present parent because I had this, I kind of compartmentalised my life and when I was at training, I was there for the shortest time possible. I was in and out, I was getting it done, but I was getting it done with quality. I was present and I was going to make the most of that time so that when I stepped away from it, I would totally detach. And then when I got home, I think I just felt, I felt energized.

26:52And I think partly that's because of exercise. And I think I do, I probably am someone that needs exercise to get those endorphins and lift. And, but I think for my mental health, it was really important, that identity. And I could really throw myself into parenting. And I think that it's definitely not something that everybody needs. I see some of my friends parenting day to day with just this amazing consistency and this amazing ability to be present. But for me, I found the stepping back in a real kind of powerful moment that I'd given myself this kind of reminder of who I am outside of the

27:35Fearne Cotton: house as well. Yeah, I'm the same. I need something creative to remind me of who I am. I think it's that simple, just a reminder of, oh yeah, because obviously like, I feel like I have to say the disclaimer of like, being a parent is a privilege and it's amazing and there's so many beautiful parts of it, but a lot of it is really mundane. And you are doing stuff on repeat. And sometimes it's thankless a lot of the time. And sometimes it's totally and utterly exhausting mentally, emotionally, physically. So to have something that really boosts you outside of that, if that is what you want, as we keep saying, you know, if that floats your boat, I just used the pun there.

28:20Fearne Cotton: Sorry, guys, without even realizing it. But that is deeply important to give you that sort of balance and I think perspective that when you step back into it, you do feel re-energized and that you can step into that space gratefully. Exactly. Yeah. Being grateful. And I think every single time I would come back, I was grateful not only for the fact that I was able to go and do this thing I wanted to do, but grateful every time I walked back home and being, you know, just, I guess, reassessing how lucky I am and how great this actually is. But when I did notice that if I stayed in it too long, I think my perspective shifted and I definitely found it.

28:57I found it harder to be the parent that I wanted to be. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stash terms.

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30:09Fearne Cotton: See CapitalOne.com for details. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions.

30:43You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

30:52Fearne Cotton: Right, let's get back to the show. Here's Paloma Faith, Ruth Langsford and Joanna Page. So you know that if you had full attention on one thing, how exceptional it would be. and you're just doing like you know giving everything your 40 percent because there's too many things you've only got several 40 percent and you know in your case you're doing amazingly at all of those 40 percent but it's just that feeling that you're not giving anything your full thing and I feel like society really needs to update um because we were sort of sold this dream of like the feminist dream you can have it all and the reality is you can't have it all you can have a bit of everything but you can't have it all and I notice in my life that like as the same as you like the sort of CEO of my business that I'm finding the hardest part being when I'm with my kids because sometimes I haven't had time to plan a brilliant activity or to make the best meal that I want them to eat or like get them into bed on time because I took a work call or whatever and then they're going to be tired for school, you know, like all of that.

32:16And you're just, and then you're sort of like existing around in a heteronormative sense. I'm not speaking about anything other than that at this point. you're sort of around like a heteronormative guy who thinks that his contribution as either I mean I didn't even have that but like that just contributing to finances is as much as what you're doing and it isn't because knowing what it's like to contribute to all the finances in my case and also the silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent and the non-silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent is overwhelming and too demanding and I just think that culture's very society's very complacent and takes its mothers for granted I think that's what I wanted to kind of put across in the book because when and the kind of like annoying part about this book I think is that I think quite a lot of women will probably read it but who I'd like to read it would be male fathers because I think that there's this kind of idea that like a mother's day breakfast in bed is enough to say a bit of dry toast and clap clap clap we love you it's not enough I literally just want to throw it in the bloody bin.

33:46I can make my own toast, but can you see that I'm doing a repetitive action every day that you could just say, I'm going to do that. And in some cases in marriages, it's been 10, 20, 30, 40 years of people watching their mothers or their wives doing this same thing over and over again. And it's like, why aren't you just doing it? like I think it needs to change in two areas I think that men need to be raised in a different way to actually feel more responsible I think girls are raised to feel responsible for a lot of stuff emotions people's feelings housework contributions like all of this stuff responsibility like I have two daughters and I and I hear myself talking to them I think if I had sons I would do this to them as well like you are responsible for others feelings you're responsible to notice things um so there's that and then I also think that employers as well because there's this idea that sort of comes from patriarchal and capitalist ideologies, that money is paramount, money's the most important contribution you can make.

35:07And actually it's not. It's definitely on an even keel with, like, emotional labour and in terms of, like, the running of a successful household. And I don't think it's enough for, in heteronormative situations, for men to think that just bringing money into the house is enough and I didn't even have that either but like I think quite a lot of situations are like that but as somebody who brings money in I know that my workload on an emotional level is way harder. The point is you like many women out there are attempting to do it all to fulfill

35:48Fearne Cotton: all roles so you're a career woman you're driving this brand this company that is Paloma Faith but you're also nurturing and ensuring that you are instilling these you know things into your kids but also keeping the house running and the level of worrying that you're doing and I think for many women today we feel like we've got to be all for to have a whole life so you've got I get annoyed as well with people saying oh she's a bit snappy or she's a bit irritable and it's like this vilification of like basically someone who's overloaded and overstretched and rather than being like oh she's a bit snappy maybe we should be asking why she's overloaded and what can I do to alleviate it so she can be the best version of herself which she really wants to be like I know what I'm capable of and I really want to be the best mother and the best human being I can be and quite often I'm not and I think that's because of the exhaustion.

37:03Fearne Cotton: I really enjoyed reading the section about the period after you had your son Jack and you go into the details of that sort of deliberation of okay you've been offered to do the summer cover for this morning but you've also got a kid and the guilt and the worry that men don't feel they don't have that pressure on them that societal pressure the systemic pressure but also just like what we've been indoctrinated with as women that you should be this and feel like this and and I felt it and you know I'm my kids are 10 and 13 so I'm not wiping bums but I still feel like I need to be as present as I can be they need you more in my opinion when I think so you know the teen bit and I constantly go oh god I really want to do that job I feel bad because I'm going to be away overnight this night.

37:49Fearne Cotton: And I'm in the thick of that now. So I really appreciated you writing about that. Oh, thank you. What helped you? You know, you say now you've got this very well-rounded young man for a son. Well, I would say that, wouldn't I? But he is. But he is. And, you know, so you don't look back with regret. But at the time, what did help you get through those moments of, oh, I feel terrible. I'm not there. You know, you just do. You just have to. and that's why I've written about it in the book as well because if any younger women read this and I work with young producers all the time young women who are having their first baby they've come back to work and I remember once this morning I went into the loo and there was a young woman in there crying and she tried to stop crying and I said oh my god what's the matter and she'd just come back after having a baby and she went I just feel so bad because I left the baby and I said to her I absolutely know exactly how you feel I said your baby won't remember any of this your baby I'm sure will be being looked after by whoever you have chosen to look after him or her you'd have chosen well yeah they're being fed and nappy changed they won't remember any of it and if this is important to you to have that feeling of fulfillment to work do it because actually they won't remember any of this and this guilt that we carry around and you're right no disrespect to men and there are a lot of single fathers out there doing great jobs but I do think that women seem to have this guilt and whether that's you said societal pressure that we've always been the oh the mummy mum's at home and bringing up the children and suddenly mummy's not she's she's working but what happens is she's still doing the majority of the child care they're looking after the house the shopping the thing the planning and you you rarely hear men I'm not going to say never but you rarely hear men say oh I feel so bad today you know I've had two days away from the kids you don't you don't I got to the point with driving home that even a red traffic light and we had a nanny so I chose a nanny because I looked at all those child care options and a lot of them with the kind of strange hours that we do it didn't just didn't work no nurseries I said well I can't drop him off and because I've got to be at work at eight I can't drop him at eight yeah yeah so we had the not live in but I had a nanny who came and I thought well that's that's regular person for jack but if i you know i say i'll be home at six if we were running late then i would be in such a panic yeah and i used to think i used to worry which i have written about that jack was going to think she was his mum i was thinking he's going to bond with her her smell everything her voice and he'll think that she's his mum doesn't remember her she worked for us for two and a half years he doesn't sorry i hope you're not listening to this i don't mean But yeah, she was a fantastic nanny.

40:38He doesn't remember it. So this is what I'm saying to these young women is that don't beat yourself up. Don't do this to yourself because they won't remember. There are loads of things from Jack's childhood, very young, where I was guilt ridden. And as you mentioned, when they asked us to do the summer this morning, which hadn't been done before, my absolute first reaction was like, no, I can't do that. Summer holidays, Jack was six or something. and Eamon at the time quite rightly said look as his dad and parent I absolutely agree with you we should say no it's summer holidays we can't do that he said however if I was your agent now I'd go you mad they're offering you this fantastic you know this morning five days a week all through the summer we'd be mad not to take you said if we don't we were doing Fridays then he said do you think they'll give it to someone else and if those people are good do you think they're going to give

41:29Fearne Cotton: us Fridays back they won't and he was right yeah and actually it was fine Jack was fine with it of course and and the judgment would only ever be on you in that in that couple from men and women going oh well who's looking after her kid they would never go who's looking after his child and that's the thing that I have to wrestle with and I even made a decision last week where I said yes to something that I really want to do and also you know it's important that I'm financially on track and I'm on my own and I've got to make sure that I'm doing it properly. But you know, actually my kids are at an age where I could talk to them and I said, look, I'm going to take this job and I'm not going to be around quite as much in June and July.

42:09Fearne Cotton: And they were like, yeah, yeah, don't worry, we get it. It's all good. And we had that conversation, which took a bit of the stress away. But even after this today, I've got three podcasts today and I'm going to kill myself getting home as quick as I can to then race to my mate Ella's house, who's picked up the kids for me who's going to give them dinner to then come back and like try and make up for me having not been there and it's we are all pushing ourselves to just and I'm sure if I sat down with your children right now and ask them you know does it affect you badly if mum's working do you worry you're thinking where is she they're just saying no no they'll be fine because they know you love them absolutely they have a loving family they know you love them I actually think it's really good for your children to see you work yeah and particularly young men to say you know women go to work now yeah we do not stay at home yeah and bake bread and clean up after you it's so hard why is parenting so hard it's so oh my god you're just so stressful isn't it because everything and you love them so much but everything is just like it's such a heightened thing isn't it so heightened yeah it's just oh my god it's and then trying to do that with work like when i first had eva I worked just after having, so this is like now 12 years ago.

43:21And, but I was still in the mindset of, I'm an actress. You don't say no to a job. A job comes in, you say yes to everything. And my birth with her was, you know, quite traumatic. I was sent to previa. I'd been hemorrhaging. I mean, it was just like, oh my God, it was just mad. And I was two weeks after giving birth to her and I had really low iron. I was absolutely exhausted. I was bleeding. I had cracked bleeding nipples. It was just like, I'm trying to feed her. It was, oh, it was so difficult. felt and my agent phoned and said you've got to go into London now to this audition um it's going to be like the next mad men it's you know this thing for ITV all about the NHS starting and stuff and in my head I just thought oh my god no it's the last thing I want to do I don't want to physically I just can't get myself there anyway and also my head's just not there anymore I just I don't want to do it I just don't want to do it but I'm still like as an actress going yes okay yes I'll be there and so you know so I went down there and I got down there to you know to start doing it and sat my mum in this hotel just where I went to Spotlight which was where the audition was and everything and I was feeding Eva on demand breastfeeding and I hadn't didn't have a dummy I hadn't expressed any milk I didn't have a bottle and she was just sleeping so I just handed her to my mum and I just said just look after her while I go and do this meeting and mum was just sitting there just frozen going oh my god if this baby wakes up I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do I've got no milk for her I've got no nothing and then I went in and just did this audition and it's just weird because all I did was just go in there and talk about my placenta and talk about my birth and just like and because I didn't give a shit I was just like yeah I had a double placenta it's this big and the sack was ripping and whatever I got the job straight away and then by the time we got home I walked into the house and then they phoned and my agent went yeah you've got the job and then also they just offered you the part of Queen Elizabeth in the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who so I was like oh yes okay right I've just I've got to do that then as well and so then I'm off straight away filming with this little baby with me.

45:11And it's mad because, you know, as a woman, you're there and you're trying to deal with, like, the biggest thing that's ever happened in your life. Madness. And physically and mentally and all of that. And then you're still, like, boom, straight into this, like, working environment, which you've been in for, like, years and years, which doesn't cater to having a baby with you. God, no. And you're trying to struggle, you know, with all of that.

45:29Fearne Cotton: And, oh, my God, it's just so difficult. It's so, so bonkers. Again, like you say, when you're programmed to always say yes and go, I won't turn down this opportunity, that you push yourself that much. I mean, I did exactly the same. And it is absolutely wild. I mean, you did make a decision a bit further down the line to say, actually, do you know what? Enough's enough. I don't want to work for a bit. That must have been a big scary gear change. Well, it wasn't. It was just a complete and utter relief. Really? I'd done Doctor Who, right? And I was breastfeeding and I was in this corset and they were gorgeous, right?

46:01They were really lovely. And they couldn't have been nicer. but I was adamant that the baby was going to be with me on set and this is what I'm doing. But, you know, oh my God, we'd be in a hotel in Cardiff. I'd be cluster feeding all the way through the night. She'd finally finish at about four in the morning and then at five in the morning, I'd have to get up, go on set, have my red wig put on, be shoved into this huge big corset with these boobs, which has got bigger and bigger and bigger as the day went on. I couldn't remember any of my lines because my head was all over the place. Lunchtime would come and I'd go into my trailer.

46:31I'd feed for half an hour, express for like 25 minutes, have one mouthful of food and then go back on set. And then after you feed, you just want to catch them. I was just like, but I just want to be with her. And everybody would say, well, she's not even going to remember, you know, it doesn't matter. But you're like, but I will remember. And this is my experience as well. And then you're on set and you can't remember your lines. You're playing Queen Elizabeth with a Welsh accent. I know. And I was just like, you know, and they were all gorgeous. But I've got like Billy Piper, there's Jenna Coleman, David Tennant, John Hurt.

47:00And you're there and you're doing Queen Elizabeth with a Welsh accent. and you can't remember your lines. It's really embarrassing. And so I got through that, but we tried to make it work and it was just awful. And then I got to doing Breathless then, this thing for ITV. And oh my God, I was starting to shift in my head. I was starting to just be a bit more like, you know, I just want to think about me. I just, I don't know, I was starting to harden and just go, it doesn't mean as much. It doesn't mean this whole acting world, which has been my everything. It's been everything. And it just doesn't mean anything to me anymore.

47:31And we got to doing Breathless and I was just, you know, we'd be in the middle of filming a scene. And I'd be like, oh, my God, I can hear my baby because mum would sort of be coming to set and even be crying. And I'd just stop a scene in the middle of filming and go, I'm sorry, I've got to stop. My baby's coming. I've got to feed her. And then I'd take myself off for about half an hour and leave everybody waiting for me. They were really sweet about it. But when you're filming, everyone's a bit like, you know, when are you going to be finished and stuff? And I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know when I'm going to be finished.

47:58But by the time I got to the end of that, I was like, I'm done. I'm absolutely done. I don't care what anybody says. I don't care if I'm getting asked to do auditions. I don't care if it's, you know, bad or whatever. I don't care if I'm going to completely ruin my career because I'm just stepping away from it when it's doing really well at the moment. I'm quite prepared to do that. And what will be will be. And then I took myself off for about seven years.

48:18Fearne Cotton: I think that's amazing because there's, you know, even when I sort of decided to not really do TV anymore and I was like, it's just not working for me. There was a huge part of me, largely ego based, that was like, that forms a lot of my identity. That is how I identify as I am a TV presenter. What the hell am I meant to think about myself without that there? And I don't think I valued myself in other ways as much, you know, being a friend, being a mother, you know, just being a human being. All of my self-worth was wrapped up in achievement and what I was seen to be doing. Did you have any of that going on?

48:55Fearne Cotton: No, I didn't. I never thought. And I did have to put up with then when I came back to work, people saying to me, oh, God, you know, do you feel bad that you never became as successful as Martin Freeman? And Martin's absolutely gorgeous, you know, but as a woman and taking time off and you know that then you're going back into the profession, it's just not going to be as easy as it was before. It's really hard. You're not getting the meetings as much or you're not getting the jobs as much. And you've got to basically go, right, OK, I'm going to start from scratch again. but I never felt you know worried like that was my whole identity because I think I just got so wrapped up in Eva and being a mother and still now like being a mother is sort of my whole identity and I know when they grow up and they go to whatever they want to go off and do I know I'll be cool because I'll be so bloody exhausted by then and I'll be pushing 60 when I think Bo gets to about like you know 13 and teenage years so I think I'll be more than ready to go okay now I am just going to be me.

49:49But I think I just sort of just went boof and just, you know, converted myself over to, no, my entire identity is mother. And I don't care. I don't care about acting or anything anymore.

50:00Fearne Cotton: I love that. Brilliant women talking absolute sense and being really open and honest. I really hope that that either gave you some ideas for your own life, maybe emboldened you in the choices you feel you want to be making or just made you feel a little less alone. because honestly, this can be really crap and it can look like everyone else is handling big decisions way better than you are, but we're all just making this up as we go along. We are winging it. Let's chat on Instagram. If you have mum guilt or you're struggling with the juggle, whatever it might be, we are at Happy Place Official.

50:34Fearne Cotton: All right, back here next week with one of the many gorgeous live podcasts that we've recorded at the Happy Place Festival this weekend, just gone. Can't wait for that. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to everyone we heard from today and to you. Whatever plates you're spinning right now, you're doing a bloody great job.

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