Naomi Watts talks menopause: “Women grin and bear it”

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cosson and this is Happy Place, the show that knows there's great comfort in seeing yourself reflected in other people's stories. Today, I'm chatting to Naomi Watts. As a woman in peri-menopause, it's going to lead to a whole lot of other things like anxiety, depression, memory blips. You know, in the most inconvenient ways, you could be standing in front of a boardroom of men holding a meeting and suddenly you've lost the word or the sentence has gone. You know, it's very humiliating and can create a whole lot of anxiety. And so half the population is going to go through this.

0:37the chances are this story, my story might be your story too. Gang, how are you? I'm hanging out my arse, I'm not going to lie. My kids have been sort of tag-teaming illness for about 10 days. I know loads of you are going through the same thing. Bugs galore going around everywhere. I had my daughter in the bed with me last night, quite literally coughing up phlegm in bed, which was delightful. I don't think I've had a solid night's sleep in two weeks. So I'm a bit delirious, powered by coffee and a lot of chocolate buttons at the moment. That is my snack of choice. But whatever it takes to get you through, right?

1:17I think we're coming out the other side. They both went back into school today and I did do a little skip after the school run because I was so joyful and relieved. If you're in the same boat, you've got this. God, it's bloody hard. The juggle is real. Let's talk about Naomi Watts, who is a legend. You'll know Naomi from films like The Ring, Birdman, King Kong. But what you might not know is that at 36, at the height of her fame, she suddenly started experiencing symptoms she couldn't explain. Itchy skin, night sweats, anxiety. It turns out she was going through early menopause. And given she seriously struggled to find any real information or stories about this midlife transition, she decided to bring it out of the shadows herself by founding a company helping women navigate menopause and by writing a bloody great book which is out now called Dare I Say It and I'm unbelievably proud to say that Dare I Say It is published by Happy Place Books.

2:18This book is genius from cover to back page. The front cover is iconic quite frankly it's just genius and it's a bloody helpful book that is so honest and frank, not only just for a Hollywood star, but just for any human and full of funny anecdotes and brilliant, brilliant advice and scientific study in there as well. I chatted to Naomi recently, well just last week actually, remotely, oh we chatted about so much. We talked about confusion and misinformation and the lack of awareness around early menopause. We also looked at the idea that women are told that if you're a woman, you will suffer just inherently by being a woman and be in pain quite often, which keeps us all very quiet about it because we just have to truck on and we're all quite used to trucking on.

3:06That's not good, is it? It's not good enough. We also talked about the insidious feeling in society that older women aren't of great use or value. And I could get quite bloody ranty about that one because the absolute direct opposite is true. Older women have so much experience, wisdom, storytelling and everything else to share.

3:53That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you.

4:27Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, it's Austin James. If you're like me, trying to live your best life while living with diabetes, you can relate to worrying if you're doing a good job managing your diabetes. I use the Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor to get real-time glucose readings and see the impact of every meal and activity to make better decisions. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help me live life with diabetes on my own terms. And it gives me more time for the things I love, like being a dad and a musician. Now this is progress. Learn more at freestyllibre.us.

4:59For prescription only, safety info found at freestyllibre.us. Don't just ride the index. Seek to outperform it with FELC, the Fidelity Enhanced Large Cap Core ETF. Unlike passive ETFs, FELC is run by a team of experts to adapt to market conditions and pursue upside potential wherever it's hiding. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Discover FELC, the Fidelity-enhanced large-cap core ETF, part of Fidelity's suite of active ETFs. Learn more at fidelity.com slash FELC. before investing in any exchange-traded fund you should consider its investment objectives risks charges and expenses contact fidelity for a prospectus and offering circular or if available a summary prospectus containing this information read it carefully while active etfs offer the potential to outperform an index these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive etfs fidelity brokerage services llc member nysc sipc

6:06right let's crack on here's the show

6:30hi Naomi how are you I'm good I'm just going to take my earrings off because I can hear them banging on my headphones and that might be something annoying that you have to deal with too so it's so nice to see you and first of all congrats on this brilliant book which I bloody loved not only did I love it but I'm extremely proud that happy place books is publishing it in the UK I'm over the moon about that yay so happy about it oh good um and the front cover do you I like it. I love it. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, I wanted it to be bold. And it turns out that the old megaphone or bullhorn or whatever you call it, it's sort of symbolic in my life.

7:10And consciously or not, it ended up on the cover of my book. But, you know, in David Lynch's passing, which just took place last week, I was reminded so much of his use of a megaphone all throughout his career. He would be on the set and even if you were three feet in front of him, he would still speak with his megaphone. So it's clearly in me that as a symbolic thing. And I conjured it and it's ended up in my book. And I didn't meet, it just happened. I only thought of it as a connection as the other day when I heard the news. Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear about the passing. I mean, he's such a great friend of yours.

7:59And obviously, you work closely with him. He did that beautiful tribute online. It's just rough, isn't it? And it's hard to comprehend when someone's not here anymore. It's very odd. Yeah, grief is a difficult thing. And another kind of conversation that needs to develop further, I think. we need to understand it better, prepare for it better. But yeah, it was a very, very sad thing. But I am comforted by the joy, the outpouring of love people experienced through him, with him, and his humor. It just created so much joy in so many of us. So that's quite healing. every time you feel yourself falling to pieces you find yourself laughing at some piece of footage that arrives in your feed you know and um just you laugh um because he he had a really really fantastic life and affected many of us yeah an extraordinary man extraordinary man well we love the megaphone and we love the front cover but more importantly i love the contents and i'll tell you There's many reasons why I love it, but one of them is actors of your calibre traditionally are sort of, I guess they make themselves seem otherworldly, almost inhuman.

9:17Like they would not have any human bodily functions because they're sort of shiny Hollywood people over here. I sort of can't imagine Brad Pitt taking a shit kind of thing. But here you are talking about something so human and relatable and really bloody helpful. and it feels like reading every word in this book it seemingly poured out of you and it's something that it's almost like the book wrote itself like this was already in you you needed to get this out of you and into the wider world yeah um and I did oscillate back and forth you know should I do this or not in fact it the idea came to me because I I wished there was such a book I had a real need because menopause hit me at such a young age when I was completely uneducated, completely at sea with no community, not knowing how to talk to doctors, doctors not really having a lot to say about it, symptoms going undiagnosed.

10:17And I said to a friend one day, God, there should be a book. I wish there was a book that had some kind of guide to make it, you know, a little less horrific and maybe some fun there, you know, like it's not the end. And my friend said, well, you should write that book. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no way. And I'm an actor, not a writer. And you can't be saying that stuff out loud. God, no. So it took me, you know, that was a good 10 years ago. But so when you say it came pouring out of me, eventually it did. But it took a long time to get to that and a lot of experiences to go through, a lot of knowledge to learn, people to speak to and get their expertise and fear to move through.

11:12Like I tested the waters here and there first within my friend groups. And quite instantly I was told by my friends, oh, don't be silly. You're too young to be in menopause. You know, or, you know, if I made a joke about an estrogen dip or something, that was like, oh, don't be silly. You know, so I got so many versions of no, I'm not willing to talk about it. No, that's not my experience. You know, so I would retreat further and further into myself. And it just finally got too exhausting to carry that secret, that burden. And I just went, fuck it. You know, if it spooks you, that's a bummer. But I need to do it for myself.

11:59Half the population is going to go through this. The chances are this story, my story might be your story too. or a version of that can be tapped into through this, you know, through learning about mine. You were also pretty much actively warned that talking about menopause or age in the context of Hollywood would be career suicide. But thank God you mitigated that and went still doing it. Yeah. And again, I slowly did it. I created a company for skincare from scalp to vag. And that was I gently moved through that. I did not think that I would be the woman out there talking about, you know, vagina over and over again.

12:44Vaginas, you know, but you can't do this in half measures. You've got to just just blow through all of the awkwardness of it in the hope that it will be of service to others. I mean, we're so awkward talking about sexual health, vagina. And, you know, we're older women and we're still like vagina. You know, it's kind of this awkward thing. And it's like, oh, my God, we need to just I'm sure there are younger generations who are naturally feeling slightly more comfortable talking about this stuff. But I think. Oh, yeah. Our generations, we're sort of like, oh, it's awkward. Yes. And our mother's generation are not too thrilled with it either because they had to suffer through.

13:27So it's interesting. Some are like, yeah, wow, that's fantastic. You did it. And some are like, really, do you really need to do that? Or I sailed through it. It was fine. What are you all carrying on about? It's interesting. It does bring up intergenerational stories. But I think the millennials who are just edging into menopause now, or perimenopause, are grateful. And I think the generation behind them are going to be as well. Like, the ice is broken, we're much more free to talk about it. And so obviously, research, funding, education is all going to be for the better. Yeah, I mean, I am peak demographic because my mum, my mum sort of normally with anything goes, I don't remember.

14:10I don't know. I don't remember. Like, oh, mum, what about childbirth? I don't remember. I don't remember. She's literally told me nothing. But then she did say not long ago that she went through menopause at 42. I am now past that age and have slightly buried my head in the sand like many of my friends and just gone, la, la, la. I'm not thinking I don't think about it. Is that a symptom? Is it not? I'm not really paying any of it, any attention. So this came to me at the exact right time. I needed this for not only the anecdotal reassurance, but also the deep dive stats you've got in there and looking at misinformation and skirting around that and getting to the crux of things.

14:50it's something that we're still I think you know certainly me and my friends are just feeling a bit lost in and unsure about and like you say it's going to happen to half the population and it can be a pretty major thing I mean you started getting symptoms at 36 and I mean this was a really tricky time for you because you even before but they were discounted like I remember Every movie we do as actors, we have to tick a list of questions for the medical and insurance purposes. And I would always tick night sweats. I knew that my periods were becoming irregular, closer together, much lighter. Didn't know that that meant menopause.

15:32I did have a conversation with my mom about menopause long, long ago. And she had told me that she went in at 45. I didn't know any other detail around it. I didn't know she had a multitude of symptoms and for a great number of years. So yeah, and when I got that diagnosis or semi-diagnosis right at the precipice when I was trying to get pregnant, and my doctor said, well, the reason you're not is probably because you're close to menopause. These blood results are suggesting as such. And I was like, what? I remember 45 for my mom. I'm 36. and I called her right away and I said, why didn't you tell me more?

16:13And she said, well, these were the conversations I didn't have with you because my mother never had them with me. So no blame to her. It's just, you know, that was the societal message that women must, you know, zip it and grin and bear it. Well, I mean, you talk about this in the book, that there is perhaps this sort of subconscious undercurrent understanding that women just will suffer from the moment we start our periods until until the end of time there is there is suffering and pain and this monthly cycle that rules so much of our lives that that therefore you do just troop on and you get through it and that is one of the factors as to why we haven't talked about it and why it's a really new conversation I mean here in the UK I'd say maybe in the last five years I've been aware of this conversation really you know creating a bit of a furore and an excitement really but it's bloody new yeah well I think the UK was ahead of the US actually do you think yeah I think that I mean certainly when I started circling around it and making jokes about it and on my Instagram feed and then creating the company I was I knew that there were people talking about it in the UK for sure and which was I was looking to them and I mean Mariella Frostrup, a friend of mine who wrote Cracking the Menopause, her book came to me, the galley, I think it was, right when I was in the midst of creating this company.

17:43And I was like, oh my god, I'm doing this thing too. And but she'd already made the documentary. So yeah, I think you guys were already doing a lot better in terms of research and community building. Yeah, I mean, it's it's all too late in the day like what what i discovered from your book which again i found mind-blowing is that the term menopause was only coined in 1812 so before that nothing just women getting on with it and suffering and feeling like shit and then perimenopause being sent sorry to interrupt um no worse than that like if you google the history of menopause back to when you know, that word was created in Grecian times, menses is a Greek word.

18:31It was, you know, they didn't know what to do with you. Once your, you know, reproductive organs were no longer in use, you were going to be sent off to the asylum or something. You were considered, you know, wacko. Yeah. And there's just no use for a woman in society like that if she's going to suddenly not be able to produce and she's behaving in ways that are mysterious mysterious I mean it's utterly absurd but but you can see that there is a flavor of that still in the air in terms of older women being less seen less heard less valued it's we're not I mean we're not being sent off to uh you know asylum there is still there's a flavor of that that that we are less important and less valued in society at a certain point.

19:21Yeah, it's ingrained. It's a patriarchal thing that still is there and up to us, I think, to really break that down. And I think we've done a bloody good job in this generation. And it's, like you say, been the last five years that that change has ignited. And I think it will continue. Menopause is not going away. We can advocate for ourselves now and demand for better care. Yeah, and also, I guess, really honour it. Do you know what was so interesting? So very recently we had an incredible guest on the podcast called Afua Hirsch. She's an amazing activist, writer, speaker, and she's written a book called Decolonising My Body.

20:03There's a whole chapter on there, or maybe even chapters, on the menstrual cycle and the fact that we just, first of all, we don't talk about it enough when we start puberty, but then we don't learn to honour them. We just see them as this huge inconvenience that we have to keep all secret and don't tell anyone and hide the tampon. And it's all really clandestine. And then when we get to menopause and then we don't have them anymore, we're so full of grief because we haven't realized the importance of them or how amazing they are. We've just seen them as this bloody, awful inconvenience for three or four decades, whatever it is.

20:41And it's actually about going right back to the start of puberty and teaching young girls. This is an amazing natural phenomenon that you get to be part of until however old you are. And I think that's the bit that we're missing is sort of seeing and they can be an inconvenience and they can be painful. And we know all of that. But there is a beauty to it that we're not looking at. Yeah, it's it's it's part of your identity. You prepare for it. You live with it. You share it. it's yeah it runs interference it's it it's just so much of who you are because as you say it's three plus decades and I think this is why menopause the education around it should really start in the classroom and in fifth or sixth grade when you do sex ed and say this is the beginning of your of your years as a hormonal woman this is what can happen in between you know fertility and STDs and all of those things that will take place.

21:41And then the bookend of that is when your eggs are no longer there. And on the tails of that, you will experience a hormonal shift. And just so that you know to prepare. And I think, you know, one of the big reasons for doing the book and the company and being part of the advocacy world for me is that we should know that after 35, you're probably going to experience some perimenopausal symptoms. And I didn't know that. I did know that fertility slows down, but I didn't know that experiences and symptoms are going to affect you as early as that. And it's not the experience for everyone, but it is more common than you think.

22:28And I know people talk about the average age being 51. Well, it's very, it's it's it's I mean averages are strange because and also menopause is not a one size fits all it's such a hard thing to actually determine what that menopause day is because you can have a period lose your period and then not have it for six months and you think you're oh this is it and then suddenly it comes back again and but really the definition the one test is the last period you had and a year on from that, that is when you are officially in menopause. Any blood work can change, you know, from day to day. So they're not, you know, convinced that that is enough certainty.

23:13Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the podcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

23:44Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

23:56Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Say what you want about AI, but it's here. And it's helping businesses get more done in a day. Wix's website builder is infused with AI so you can stay ahead. Create a beautiful, functional website just by describing your idea. Track how your site appears in AI search results. Create custom images on demand.

24:37Or launch an entire campaign in a matter of minutes. Wix gives you AI wherever you need it. Try it out for yourself at Wix.com. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight. the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast.

25:15Talk to me about the, I'm sure, immense confusion you had when your doctor told you these are early signs of perimenopause or menopause as you're going through a fertility journey because that's the last thing you want to hear in that moment when you're trying to have a baby and then you're faced with oh my god I thought I was at the start of this creating babies and getting pregnant but and but now I'm talking about the end you know how did you mentally navigate that yeah the the collision of those bits two bits of information coming at once. Like he was in my mind telling me I was a grandmother and I was trying to be a mother.

25:54I'm like, what? But anyway, that is ridiculous and me playing tricks and self-loathing tricks on me, on myself. So yeah, I was what's called perimenopausal, but that word was not given to me. I had never heard it until the last sort of few years actually. And that would have been a much nicer kinder word to have heard I tried every version of getting pregnant and none of them were working for a couple of years I wasn't a candidate for IVF I tried Clomid I tried IUIs I put my legs in the air and did temperature checks cycling legs in the air we've all done this yeah like all of it all of it and nothing was working I was so desperate to be a mom I was turning in on myself with shame, thinking I was, you know, broken and because I couldn't reproduce naturally.

26:57And it was a horrible, horrible time. And, but I did it to myself. It was not, it was nothing more than that. But eventually I found a fantastic book called Inconceivable. And this woman had the same thing as me, which is a high FSH level follicle stimulating hormone. And she changed her diet. And I did a lot of what she was saying. But that book was kind of my savior. And I remember being tied to that book for the hope, for the possibility that her story could become my story. And again, that is another reason why I wrote this book because I wanted I wanted to provide some sense of hope and through information through other women's stories my own with all the gory details and with some humor yeah with a lot of humor which is greatly appreciated you've written a very funny book and I think it is so important to team stats facts deep dive research with stories storytelling is so important and I I think at times when you feel hopeless, hearing about someone else's journey, whether it's fertility or other hormone issues or perimenopause menopause, it gives you hope that you don't have to hear one thing from a doctor and go, I'm fucked.

28:21That's it. That's me done. You know, to hear hopeful stories is it's integral, I think, actually. Absolutely. And there's lots of great menopause books out there written by doctors who are highly, highly informed in this specific area. And I've read many of them and they have been so incredibly helpful for me. But this was important to me because it needs to be accessible. It needs to be something that you can follow along through my story as well as other women. And I think, you know, storytelling is the thing that will not only remove the stigma, but create change. I think ultimately we have to be open and share and just own our stories.

29:08It's such a release as well as productive. Yeah, I think it really, I think the, and you know, you've been extremely generous in sharing all sorts of stories in here, which I think is the most impactful way to completely annihilate shame. And you know, you've written a whole chapter on shame in the book and so many issues that women face create shame. I'm pretty sure everyone listening to this now at some point will have been drowning in shame. I've certainly, I mean, I've talked about it probably too much on this podcast that I've had, you know, whole chunks of my life ruined by feeling just such shame.

29:45And as soon as you read someone else's story and go, oh, it's not just me. It's not just me. There's other people out there that have mentally lost so much time ruminating on things or feel physically like there's something wrong with them. It's just it has the power just to dissipate shame that that level of storytelling. So it's so important. Yeah, the most healing thing in life is to feel part of a community, to feel healed by not being alone. We're not supposed to be alone. And having our stories reflected is my passion. passion. You know, it's what I do as an actor up on the screen, even though I'm telling someone else's story.

30:28It's hopefully bringing people into the cinema or on TV and reflecting their, you know, pieces of their stories. And that's all I've ever wanted to do. It matters to me. Best chapter name, Vajavonna. Well done. Well, I can tell you that's also a product name, vaginal. Yes. Oh, you got it handy. Yeah. Just happened to have it right there beside my bed. That is not a lube though. That is vaginal moisturizer that we created for Stripes Beauty, which is the company I was talking about. I created for women of this category so they can feel well hydrated from scalp to vag. Yeah. There's a few things that take place that are very personal in that particular chapter.

31:21Yes. Certainly I didn't expect that I would be going through menopause and entering into a new relationship at the same time. Yes. I mean, that is something that you don't necessarily expect, but something that I guess has its own challenges separate to, you know, being a teenager or 20-something and falling in love and lust and all of that stuff. You know, it's a completely different ballgame. I think there are huge pluses because you've got more wisdom and experience and perhaps have the ability to speak your mind more freely. But, of course, going through menopause, having had children, meeting someone new, you've got to have sex with them for the first time.

31:59It's a huge deal. Yes, it is. Yes. And the story is in the book. I won't go into great detail about it. But, yeah, it was incredibly awkward, humiliating. and mercifully I was with a man who was not only not squeamish but incredibly compassionate and I was able to just tell him the truth of what was going on and he was just the response couldn't have been better. He just said, how can I help? And instantly comforting me and making me feel safe. Extra horny. Yes. I love it. When someone's that, you know, like... When they're nice. They're for you. It's the best. Do you know what I love? When I read this line in the book, I was like, you say, I didn't know he...

32:58This is about Billy, your husband. I didn't know he'd be the person that I belonged with. Oh! Yeah. I love that. Because you'd worked together completely platonically, nothing going on, and then a light switch went on And it was like, oh, you're my person. Yes. Yeah. Well, I think we'd spent months creating a good relationship at work and then a friendship. And yeah, then the sparks came and love just really good. But we moved very, very slowly because I really didn't feel in good enough shape as having just recently split up to be open to love and creating a relationship. I wanted to keep my head down on work and obviously on my kids.

33:51Yeah, so it took me by surprise. But we moved very, very slowly and people didn't even know about it until quite a few years in. You're also the fittest couple ever. It's just like you're too gorgeous. It's too much. It's like blinding. It's too much. Oh, thank you. Fact. Another thing that is, again, probably not talked about enough when it comes to menopause is the mental health side of it. Anxiety and depression, two things that so many women will have to deal with. And Dr. Vora in your book states that psychiatric medicine aimed at serotonin is barking up completely the wrong tree. And I'm sure many women out there will have been either offered antidepressants or or actually would have been completely dismissed and not looked at at all.

34:39But in the book, you do give solutions and ways that we can look at our mental health when we're looking at menopause and and ways that we can help ourselves. What was your experience sort of mentally? Would you say anxiety was more of a problem, low mood? what what hit you yeah anxiety and um I I think if you're not sleeping that can lead to so many problems during this time um I mean anyone can say that a man can say that a teenager you know you're just never going to be on top of your game when you're not sleeping but as a woman in peri or menopause you are going to experience a whole litany about it's going to lead to a whole lot a lot of other things like anxiety, depression, memory blips, you know, in the most inconvenient ways.

35:34You could be standing in front of, you know, a boardroom of men holding a meeting and suddenly you've lost the word or the sentence has gone. You know, it happens to me and I say one in my book of trying to remember a name of a show. I literally just walked from the set and I was, I cannot believe this is happening. It's very humiliating and can create a whole lot of anxiety. And so there are many ways to find treatment for that. I find personally, for me, sleep, obviously, and that meant going on HRT to help my sleep and not deal with those disruptions. And it's safe for me. I realize it's not everyone's choice and we're not safe necessarily for everyone.

36:20You have to get educated on that if it is right for you. But I also exercise is a big one for me. It really is not just for nice lean muscles. And, you know, I don't exercise to be skinny. I exercise to be strong and I exercise to get my mind right. Yeah. I mean, sleep is it's I mean, I've had the shittest week of sleep ever. I had my son was ill, then he was waking me up monday and then my daughter caught whatever it was she was in the bed with me and she was puking and it was you know they're having night terrors because they've got fevers i've literally had the shittest week of sleep and today oh i'm sorry my daughter was still off school and um and she wanted to watch wicked uh the film so we started watching that before i knew it i was asleep blacked out on the sofa i woke up feeling so groggy and shit and it does it affects every bit of you that you end up then eating more junk because you're trying to energize yourself and it just everything gets out of whack it's so tricky what what do you think has helped your sleep and getting into a good routine of it well I I how I wind down at the end of the day is important I try not to um eat I I eat like with the kids at six I don't really don't want to eat at eight o 'clock at night oh no I hate that yeah and I definitely don't drink in the middle of the week.

37:44I do like my glass of wine. I mean, I generally will sleep so much better if I don't have wine. So I try to avoid it. But if I go out to dinner or something with a group of people at the end of the week, or if I'm cooking with friends, then I will have it. And I really try to have a bath at the end of every day and it really is my wind down so you're kind of setting the the tone for that and if I'm in really like I've already had too many nights in a row where I haven't had done well I will take something if I need to whether that's a Benadryl or we use Tylenol PM I think you have something else over there I don't I don't like using stronger sleep aids um if i can avoid it and exercise again it it tires you out it really does help with sleep it's the best and then when it comes to anxiety i mean i again i've actually had pretty you know not much anxiety at all in the last year but i i had years again ruled by it quite in quite extreme ways i couldn't drive on the motorway and and all sorts of things that felt very disruptive and that used to create a bit of a cycle again then of self-loathing and self-questioning and actually I think one of the most important things is to really be nice to yourself and let yourself get the hook and stop beating yourself up when things are a bit of a mess or when you haven't been on your A game that day.

39:20Are you pretty good at being compassionate to yourself? It takes a little bit of time sometimes and I might have to fall on my face before I get that. I try to drive through things. I've got a lot of resilience and that has been helpful at a lot of different points in my life. But sometimes it's like, no, your body or, you know, everything's trying to tell you just slow down. But when I do fall on my face, I find the best thing to do if you're doing it in front of someone is just call it out. Yeah. Call it out and say, you know, identify it, name it and share it, you know, and just say, this is what's going on with me.

40:01Forgive me. I need to take a moment. Yeah, that's the best way. Actually, as we all know, shame breeds in secrecy. So if you're then keeping all of that in, you've got shame coming into the picture as well. And it's just toxic. Yeah, it just snowballs. You mentioned a moment ago HRT and again this was a section that I really read thoroughly because there it's an oversaturated arena when it comes to looking at hormone therapy and what to do what not to do there's misinformation out there it's a shit show actually and a lot of it you know you explain the book is down to still going it's and it's still going the writing of this book which I did I I am glad you read it thoroughly.

40:42And I went over this again and again and again. And we moved things around. We really like fact-checked in so many different areas with different doctors and different places. And still, you know, this is an evolving conversation because the research has only really got going since the bad study that took place that put the fear of God and made everyone flush their hormones down the toilet, scared women, scared doctors, the hangover from that is so substantial. And a generation of women really went untreated largely. And it's only just started now where women are feeling and doctors are feeling okay about taking them again.

41:33And it requires you going into your doctor's office with as much information as you can gather. And there's lots of great information on the internet, great articles. There was one in the New York Times a couple of years ago called Women Have Been Misled. And I've spoken to all of these doctors who are giving the current stats and the current research. But again, some people now are saying that HRT is not as beneficial as all of the things that people have listed over the years. So it's like, I wish there was a perfect alignment within the medical system so that we could at least feel less confusion.

42:20But I would say take your time and research it yourself. Find a doctor that you trust and ask the questions, talk about your symptoms, know that there is risk and benefit to every single medication you take. Talk about your medical history and symptoms. Those are the most important things. And then work it through. It's just the worst thing is when your doctor is going to gatekeep you, not just from the medicine, but from the conversation. Like, that's not okay. If you can't get a doctor to at least entertain the conversation and say this is what I believe, then um then that might be grounds to you know seek another doctor but again bonkers that we have to go through this that this is something we have to sort of almost battle through and do extensive research on when it's going to happen to all of us and no one really has the answer and like you say it's bespoke you know it depends on your medical history and your family's medical history on your symptoms your symptoms yeah I mean it's that's the bit that's a head fuck for me is just knowing like what what do you do but I think you're so right it's it's asking questions isn't it getting as much information as you can to then ensure that your answer is based on the data that matches you exactly the other um subject that I love um that you've dived into is just aging in general and you've still got two grandmothers alive sadly oh no they both passed I've passed away since writing the book.

43:55No. They both went within months of each other. And yeah, but one lived to 99, my mum's mum. And my dad's mum lived to 101. It's extraordinary. So we're living longer. We really are living longer. I know, but I mean, what amazing women and amazing ages. And I'm so sorry to they've both passed since you've written the book. What would you say you learned from those women who were, I mean, one of them having lived on the planet for over a century? What lesson did you learn from them? Yeah, I knew my mum's mum much better. In fact, she raised us for a period of time. And she was, her work ethic was the thing that I take away from her and great humour.

44:44She was Australian and we call, you know, Aussie battler. she had a mouth on her and um and she was like get off your dinger and get something done like if you dared to have a book in your hand you had to go and get off your ass and and go and clean out the goats or the goats pen or get the chickens eggs or you know like she was uh she was not going to have anyone sitting around and so I as a result and my brother uh both workaholics I would say we We work hard. But that's great too. We take it seriously. And to end our chat, which I've loved every minute of, I would love to know, Naomi, where is your happy place?

45:27My happy place is home with the kids and Billy and playing a game. Playing a game of cards, Bananagrams, eating good food. Love Bananagrams. Big fan. Yeah. And there's another game that I think was invented in the UK, but apparently no longer available called Snatch. And it's like... Not a Snatch like that one down there. It's very appropriate. Yeah, on brand for me. No, Snatch is another version of Bananagrams. It's a word game that gets aggressive and highly competitive and you steal someone's word and it's very fun. But I'm told it's no longer available. I'll do some Googling for you. I'll have a look into it.

46:15I just want to say the biggest thank you for being on Happy Place. What a bloody pleasure. And again, a massive congrats on, dare I say it, the most awesome book that every woman needs to read. Thank you so much. Naomi Watts. Thank you, Fern, for having me. Oh, my God, Naomi. Do you know what? Naomi, after that chat, slid into my DMs to thank me for my time. Who does that? No one. I don't think anyone's ever done that. Unless I've known them. And then obviously they have. What an amazing human. I absolutely, I'm obsessed with her. How can I be friends with her? I mean, I say this a lot. Is it quite tragic that I want to slightly stalk her and be her best friend?

46:54Anyway, Naomi's book, Dare I Say It, is published by Happy Place Books and it's out now. By the way, I mentioned my chat with Afiwa Hirsch and her book Decolonising My Body. You actually haven't heard that chat yet. I got a bit excited, but you will in a few weeks and you're going to love it. I honestly, I haven't stopped thinking about that chat at all. So that's a little teaser for you. Well, as Naomi said, there's real power in sharing experiences and feeling less alone during the weird and confusing time in our lives. So let's all have a lovely natter on Instagram during the week. We're over on at Happy Place Official.

47:29Look, until next week, a massive thanks again to Naomi, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you because you are ace.

47:58so

48:03hi this is nox from the podcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

48:35Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Your business is one of a kind, so your website should be too. With Wix, it's easy. Almost too easy to create a website that's perfectly yours. Just tell AI what kind of site you want to build or choose from thousands of templates. Change whatever you want, whenever you want, and get everything you need to start running your business your way. No matter what you sell or what you aspire to be, you can do it all yourself on Wix. Turn up the chill this September with My Mochi ice cream. My Mochi is scoops of delicious ice cream wrapped in sweet dough. It's creamy, chewy, and totally unexpected.

49:15Craving something fruity? Hit strawberry or mango? Feeling classic? Cookies and creams where it's at. Gluten-free and only 70 calories apiece? My Mochi ice cream's perfect for midday breaks, after-dinner treats, and sneaking one from the freezer at midnight. Grab a purple box of My Mochi today and chew it, love it, repeat. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications.

49:51Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast.