OCD, perimenopause, and hitting rock bottom: This year on Happy Place

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and today it's our last episode of 2025. 25 so I thought I would pause and reflect on some of the moments that have really stayed with me this year. There was two types of shame and one is the toxic shame which remains in you for no apparent reason. And it's taken me till this big age to realise actually what I was doing was learning to ignore my body. I've heard from a lot of men who have realised that it is a courageous thing to dare to show your weakness. So coming out of prison I became a recluse to other people but to me I was like re-evaluating what I wanted to do.

0:40I was so scared and I slowly but surely just distanced myself from the world that I knew. That's I think the scariest thing about any mental health issues you can never underestimate how alone someone can feel. It's okay to make mistakes to be confused to be adventurous. I'm not afraid of dying anymore and it was the biggest journey of my life. The most important thing is that I stay true to myself and that I ask for help when I need it. After I got better and I came up to London and I started taking the tube again and I remember sitting on the tube and looking at everybody and I nearly turned into the weirdo that goes down the tube going, smile, honestly, this is great.

1:20Oh my God, there have been so many topics over the last year that I want to get my teeth even deeper into today. We're going to go all over the place from health scares and prison, changing people's mindsets, OCD and shame and the power of menstrual blood. First though which conversations have really got you going? At Stammer Sarah on Instagram loved Mel Robbins because her theories are so helpful for people who suffer with anxiety. Oh my god a hundred percent. I love Mel so much. Hanging out with her I was sort of lulled into perhaps a full sense that we're now best mates but I just I love her company and she has such a brilliant authoritative voice whatever she says I'm like I'm in I believe you.

2:11At Barb's Kelly's favourite episode was Lulu because of her honesty yeah oh my god I mean she really opened up about some really difficult stuff during that chat that she hadn't really talked about before I was so so grateful and at official Pali Yoga said Malala's chat was inspirational, funny, lighthearted, and just awesome. Well, I'm so glad that you love that one. Keep listening because we've got a bit of that Malala episode for you in a moment, as well as loads of others that I really want to tell you more about. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

3:07Now, when a storyteller and former barrister, Afua Hirsch, came on the show earlier this year, I had just read her book, Decolonising My Body. This book? Oh my God. And there was so much I wanted to explore with her about the history and politicisation of body hair and female sexuality and tattoos. And one of the things I particularly loved hearing Afua's take on was the menstrual cycle. Let's chat about periods, right? Because why are we still so weird about them? What is going on? Even at my age, I'm still weird about periods. There are loads of reasons we're in this bizarre situation where we feel the need to shove tampons up our sleeves and sort of sheepishly shuffle to the toilet and a big one is lost wisdom and rituals coupled with the barrage of advertising that we see of sort of women ice skating and smiling in the office when they're on their period it's not real um that is basically teaching us that we've just got to ignore periods and crack on with it which is often not the case that was the marketing i mean we grew up with it It was like on your period, don't worry, put this up.

4:20You jump on the horse. That was presented as a massive success. If you can hide it, mask it, nobody knows it's happening. It's like all discretion, discreet this, discreet that. It's all colored pink and telling you that you can be a boss. You can be in the C-suite as long as you wear like an ultra tampon. No, you can't. And take some specially pink packaged period painkillers. Yeah. And actually, when you are in pain, your body is telling you something. When you have no energy, your body is telling you to rest. And I was the worst. I was that person who was actually proud of the fact that I cracked on.

4:55Never took a day off, never slept late in bed, no matter how bad my period was. I'll be in the gym and I'll be at work. And I thought that was some kind of achievement. And it's taken me till this big age to realize actually what I was doing was learning to ignore my body. And that doesn't just apply to your period. You know, that might be how it starts. But in general, it's cutting yourself off from a source of intelligence that's uniquely designed for you about what is happening to your own body. And it's understandable because we live in a society that doesn't give you menstrual leave. So what choice do you have?

5:28If you have a job and you have to be there, you have to put in a tampon, take a painkiller and keep it moving. And it's just another reminder that none of this has been designed for us. None of this has been built around our needs or facilitating our thriving or our genius. It's all built for a model that we've been shoehorned into at whatever cost. Yeah, I mean, you talk about, you know, having friends who, you know, much like myself, have been through the menopause and there's an element of grief. You're losing something. It's the acknowledgement of your fertility is over and you're not having that cycle every month.

6:04and actually getting to that point and thinking, I didn't realise that they were a really powerful, important part of who I was as a female from the age of whatever. You know, for me, it was probably 12, 13 to when you finish your periods. How do you suppose we start really honouring them? Because we've been conditioned. It's not an inherent feeling that periods are awful. We've been conditioned to go, God, they're embarrassing. God, they're awful. They're so inconvenient. And, you know, yes, there can be pain and there can be discomfort and they can be inconvenient. But I think a lot of it has been it's conditional that we've been told all of these things.

6:41Whereas actually, if we can slightly shift and see them as this miraculous, beautiful thing that we get to experience as women, then I think we can change our mindset, how we move through the world. We probably can choose rest at times over just pushing through. but I wonder how we start that shift how we can start to think of our menstrual cycle as something beautiful and powerful rather than just like fuck I don't want to come my period do you know how it started for me and it's it's interesting isn't how life is sometimes like this when you do something for someone else it ends up helping you so um when my daughter started her period I wanted her to have a puberty initiation because again this is something that almost all cultures did for young women and we've lost I mean I don't know about you when I started my period my mom was like here's a sanitary towel kind of correct keep it moving yeah and that's what her mother did for her and at some point this practice of really initiating girls and teaching them that this is now they're stepping into a new phase of power and also responsibility is something that was totally lost so I wanted to restore that for my daughter so I worked with some amazing women who I write about in the book called Laurence she is initiated into the highest order of priestesses in Benin, which is one of the ancient centers of this kind of knowledge.

7:56And she did a puberty initiation for my daughter. You know, I'm thinking this is for the young girls. You know, this is for my daughter and her friends and cousins to really understand this phase they're entering. And, you know, we'll just be there for support. The girls were completely like chill. We were the ones in pieces. It was the women my age who were like on the floor because the initiation ceremony is telling these girls you are entering a phase of incredible power and here's how to hold it here's how to use it here's how to harness it and we are at the other end you know coming towards menopause realizing that after basically a lifetime of having that power we didn't use it no we didn't know we had it we didn't appreciate it we didn't use it we just saw it as like a mess that needed to be cleaned up discreetly and it's never too late it's honestly never too late and And, you know, entering menopause is not a loss.

8:50It's also a rebirth into a new phase where you have new powers. Yeah. Do you know what? After having that game changing chat with Afua, who, as you just heard, is so clever, sort of so overwhelmingly clever that I wanted to just not speak. I'm just so in awe of her and so massively articulate. but what really made me stop and think was how we I mean it's not even like we've been conditioned to think of periods as this like terrible thing or thing we should ignore we just don't talk about any of it it's just sort of a given that it stays in the shadows and I've become much more vocal even in my friendship groups talking about whether I'm on my period it's just ended I'm about to come on my period and all the feelings that come with that and not to feel like it has to be this weird secret.

9:40Also, because I am perimenopausal, I'm now thinking about the end of my periods in a completely different way. And rather than like, sometimes I think, oh God, can menopause just hurry up? I'm over it. Other days I think, oh God, I'm terrified of menopause and all that it brings. But actually I'm seeing it as this kind of amazing closure to this beautiful experience that I've had that yes brings pain and discomfort and irritation and sometimes just wanting to stay in bed quite frankly but it's also given me my babies and has been this cycle that I followed on repeat since I was 13 years old and I have to honour the closure of that somehow and I'm still wondering how I might but I think having learned so much from Afua, ritual has to be part of that without a doubt.

10:29And also I think just the general feeling that we all need to listen to our bodies a lot more, whether that's due to our menstrual cycle, our energy levels, how we're pushing them in exercise. That has been a big, big one for me, I'd say in the last five years. Whereas I used to really love running and pushing myself, my knees are currently saying no, no more running, not allowed. And my body just feels better when I do exercise that is actually gentler and softer and much more intuitive. And I think everything that Afua said has made me take that seriously rather than think, no, no, look at these people on Instagram doing HIIT workouts and they're like dripping with sweat.

11:10Actually, my body is telling me at this point in my life, it doesn't want that. And I'd be ridiculously stupid to not listen to it. Afua, we bloody love you. And if you're listening to this after, I mean, she's probably not, but please, can you come back on? Because I feel like we could have talked for days, days, actually. So we need a part two, a part three, and a part four. That's to come down the line, hopefully. Oh, should we talk about Will Poulter? The entire Happy Place team fell in love with him when he came in for a chat. What a thoughtful, kind-hearted, and just regular guy. He didn't turn up with some big Hollywood entourage makeup artists and PR people.

11:50He just got on the tube and came to the studio on his own. And we love him for that. Now, I was only diagnosed with OCD a few years ago, and I'll tell you a bit more about that in a moment. So it was really nice to hear about Will's experience of being diagnosed as a kid. OCD is something I was diagnosed with in my early teens. And when I reflect on it, I think I had, you know, intrusive thoughts, which is sort of one of the kind of subsets of OCD, if you like. And I think I had intrusive thoughts, undiagnized OCD, when I was aware of my imaginary best friend, for example. You know, it just had a different and, you know, typically imaginative spin on it for a child.

12:38like I can remember having this kind of voice in my head that told me you know if I didn't you know walk on certain paving stones on the way up to my like mum and dad's house that like something terrible was going to happen to them I mean I still have that right exactly I did that probably on the way in that's one I can't let go of it won't it won't fucking go I can't do three drains it's wild oh yeah yeah yeah two drains got to say something really positive about someone three drains I will walk I will make a scene to get around it I can't get over that one. Across the street. I can't get over it.

13:11It's ridiculous. I mean, I can get over it because I walk around it. Right, right. Mentally, I can't get over it. Mentally, I can't get over it. Yeah, it was so interesting. When I was younger, that was just this voice in my head, this figure that I labeled as this kind of negative character in my life and only post my diagnosis and actually well after, knowing that I had OCD, did I look back on that and go, oh, that's what that was. you know so what at what point did you think oh this isn't because when you're a kid whatever you're thinking is just your normal so you assume maybe everyone thinks like this or you don't even you don't have the awareness or the detachment to think this is a thought it's just you walking around so at what point did you assume this is a problem actually this is causing me stress in my life now well I was really lucky I got access to therapy in my early teens I was probably I was started experiencing kind of obsessive convulsive thoughts and the ruminations and intrusive thoughts.

14:11And, you know, until it was diagnosed and until I received that therapy, I just thought I was totally alone with this condition or not even condition at that time with this way of thinking, with this sort of defunct brain. I was so scared. And that's the, that's I think the scariest thing about, you know, any mental health issues. And you can never underestimate how alone someone can feel in their state you know even when you're telling someone you know oh i have anxiety too or i deal with intrusive thoughts or i have ocd i know because i've been there myself 90 of the time the other person's looking at you going yeah but you do but not like me though yeah and it may be that you are within five meters of someone at any given point who are experiencing the same thing or a version of that thing or you know it's really quite a sad and and potentially quite british expression but it is also quite true that like misery loves company yeah and one of the cruelest things about ocd is that often those intrusive thoughts and the worst thing you can imagine is the worst thing you can imagine and is something that your ocd has created precisely because it's the antithesis of how you actually feel and it actually takes what you value most or the version of yourself that you most want to be your idealistic self the way that you want to conduct yourself your sort of idealistic behavior and it creates a kind of subverted version of that whereby it convinces you that the opposite is going to happen or you are going to become the opposite of who you want to be or you are going to behave in a way that is the most abhorrent um way you could possibly imagine behaving or um the most terrible thing you know you could think of happening is going to happen OCD is so cruel that it'll it'll do that yeah we'll jump on that I greatly appreciate Will talking about his experience of OCD mine fluctuates I know some people have got it intensely and it lasts for years it can be decades it can be a lifetime mine sort of fluctuates and at its worst I would say in my early 30s and I didn't recognize it as OCD I had horrendous intrusive thoughts ones that I'm not comfortable talking about at all and I thought I was going mad and I also thought that I was just an awful person so that's why I think having a diagnosis is really important because it it sort of separates you from that experience you aren't the intrusive thoughts.

16:46You're not actually even responsible for them. It feels wildly out of control. So that was at its absolute worst. And then down the line, I'd say the fluctuation can be anything from sometimes intrusive thoughts still, but not as severely or regularly as I had them in my early thirties. And a lot of it revolves around safety checking. So it's constantly looking for danger. And a lot of the time that's in my own home. So making sure that windows are shut, that alarms are on, that hobs are off, that candles are blown out. But the OCD bit forces me to do that countless times, depending on how anxious I am at the time, how stressed out I am.

17:29When I'm peak stressed, I mean, I have to check the hobs three, four times before I can go to bed. And also there's this other part of it. And I didn't realise that this was an OCD thing until quite recently. But if I'm particularly anxious or stressed, I have to go to the loo, like for a wee, I could be 10 times before I actually fall asleep. So I'll go for a wee, get in bed, can't fall asleep. Go for another wee, get in bed. I mean, at its worst, I did that all night once. It was grim and I didn't get any sleep at all. That only happened once, but it was horrendous. So as you can hear, if it depends on how much you have experienced OCD or know about it, it can show up in so many different flavours and levels of severity and can fluctuate like mine does.

18:14I actually didn't go looking for an OCD diagnosis because I didn't know I had it. I went to see a therapist because I assumed that I had anxiety disorder because my anxiety was particularly bad at the time, which was therefore a trigger for me doing all of these things that I have to do. And he very quickly said, look, this is not what you're expecting. You haven't got anxiety disorder. You've got OCD. And I was like, what? I don't think so. Because I think when you see OCD depicted on TV or in films, it's a very specific thing. It's like turning light switches on and off. And it can be that or, you know, stepping on certain bits of the pavement.

18:53Again, it can be all of these things. And mine wasn't that. And that's why I was like, what? OCD? But like I said earlier, having that diagnosis has allowed me a little bit of room between me and these things that I sometimes need to do. I think I'm still looking at coping mechanisms. One of them for me has been, if I look at, if I take my anger seriously, this seems sort of unrelated weirdly, but if I take my anger seriously and I look at it rather than ignore it, that seems to lessen my levels of anxiety, which therefore lessen the OCD triggers. And that's something that a therapist has helped me with massively.

19:29And it doesn't mean that I have to go like shouting off to people and going I hate you blah blah blah it just means I can healthily look to exorcise that anger get it out of my physical body and that seems to lessen the anxiety greatly and the less anxious and stressed I am the less these OCD rituals come into play you know as I said it fluctuates so sometimes it's particularly bad other times not so much but what I do love doing is having chats like that one with Will to look at all the variations so that if you're listening to this now, you might go, well, maybe I need to seek a diagnosis. Or if you already have one, like, oh, thank God, it's not just me that is dealing with this.

20:08So thank you, Will. You are a total legend. Now, I'm writing a book at the moment. And one of the topics that keeps coming up for me is actually a whole chapter on this subject, is shame. And since I've been bringing it up here on the show, it seems that pretty much everyone I've spoken to recently has their own stories of feeling very visceral shame. The incredible artist Charlie Mackesy, he's the artist and brilliant author of The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse books. He has had some particularly gorgeous thoughts around shame. Have a listen. I remember reading somewhere, well, someone said it, I can't remember where, where there was two types of shame.

20:48And one is the toxic shame, which remains in you for no apparent reason, just the fact that you have it and it sits there. And the other one is you feel ashamed of something you've done. And the second one is easier to deal with. Yeah. That was stupid. I'm so sorry. And this is other weird shame that hangs in you. Yeah. Just because you exist. Yep. What? It's mad. Right? Yeah. And more of us feel like that than I think we care to believe, which is helpful because shame doesn't want us to know that other people feel like that. No, no, no. it's just you just you it was the problem yeah it wasn't my fault yeah I know it's mind-blowing yeah but the moment you start talking I did a drawing years ago I think then it was in a police cell somewhere I put and I took that one down because I think it was worded right but I said something like shame keeps you silent but there's no shame in talking or asking for help it was something like that and the words hadn't but you know I remember someone saying oh you know shame has its use and I took it down.

21:51But I think the moment you start talking about it is the moment people engage with it and oh I'm not alone then. Yeah. And I think it's the feeling of it's just you. There's a deeply lonely feeling that the moment we go oh you do that as well you feel that oh my god me too. Okay so there's hope then because actually this is a universal issue. It's a human condition. It's a human condition. And how do we get free from this? How do we walk freely? And I think it's conversation, connection, vulnerability, telling the truth. You do it in the right place, but daring to believe you'll be loved more for it.

22:32I think there's something extra special about you being a man doing this, because we still know that there is a huge mental health crisis for men. And the outcome is disproportionately awful compared to women. It kills more men than anything else. With suicide, it's just horrendous. And I think for men to see, for other men to see you being vulnerable and writing about feelings is powerful. I mean, that's a lovely thing to say. I mean, essentially the four characters are part of me. And I remember engaging with these different sides of me and then putting them into the world, not really fully realising at the time.

23:07You know, and I started to address things. And I remember years ago doing this. I thought I'd do a show of drawings in some gallery, right? So I hired this space and thought maybe my mum would come, my sister and my friend. And like 10 ,000 people came in five days. Holy shit. Yeah. It was completely nuts. It was insane, right? And so I was leaning against the wall and going, hi, nice to see you. but I remember I remember some of the people who were there and particularly the men and I remember one girl bringing sort of pulling her enormous looking boyfriend into Mimi and he just was standing looking at me and she said go on say something to her boyfriend to me and I said he doesn't need to say anything you know and he was kind of tongue tied and then his eyes welled up and we just looked at each other and she was looking at him and then I just thought, right, I'm just going to ask.

24:11We just had a hug and he had this long hug and he started sobbing and then he just pulled himself together and turned around and walked out. Wow. And I never knew what his story was and I've heard from a lot of men since who have been on the edge of things who have realised that it is a courageous thing to dare to show your weakness, to say help. These things are not failings. They're courageous things because it's choosing life. It's choosing you over not being here as opposed to not being here. Oh, Charlie, what a beautiful chat that was. That was one of those conversations that I felt happily lost in.

24:58I almost forgot that I was doing the podcast. I could have just sat there chatting and going off on different tangents with Charlie and his amazing mind for hours and hours. And I think it's really helped me recently because, you know, although I'm writing about shame, I like talking about it. It doesn't mean I'm immune to it. My God, if anything, it's the opposite. I think maybe the more I talk about it, the more aware I am of when I'm in it. And that always needs addressing because none of us should be living in shame. It's the worst feeling. You drown in it. It keeps you quiet. It keeps you in the shadows.

25:31It's just horrible. And it's an important one to talk about because it likes to breed in secrecy and in the shadows. So if you're not talking about it, it seems to get bigger and more potent. So if you're in shame currently or you've experienced parts of your life feeling like you're so ashamed and just living in that sort of heaviness, then I'm hoping that that chat with Charlie has been alleviating somehow. I had a big period of feeling a lot of shame in my early 20s. It was sort of teamed with a depressive episode. But even more recently, I've had big, big bouts of it. And the one thing I've learned about shame is that talking about it dissipates it every time.

26:12Even if there's like one specific incident. I remember doing this exercise with a therapist where there was one tiny thing that I had done. And it's not a bad thing. It's not like it's not like a criminal activity. But it's something I sort of clumsily said once and I was so mortified and ashamed about it. And my therapist said, well, tell me what it was. And I was cringing and I was stuttering, saying this thing. And then she said, well, I'll tell you my version of that story from my life. And she told me something she was so ashamed about. And I was like, that's not a big deal. Why do you feel ashamed about that?

26:44And often when you tell someone that thing you're ashamed about, the other person, the beneficiary of that story is like, you don't need to feel shame about that. Like that's normal. That's fine. So once you say it out loud, it just dilutes it. Charlie also talks in this clip about men in particular, finding solace in his words and art, but still feeling shame about being vulnerable themselves, which I found fascinating. And I think, you know, as we know from, well, certainly me doing this podcast, but we all know from the stats and figures we see men allowing themselves to feel vulnerable and open up and talk or cry which Charlie is very willing to do thank goodness it is still a massive issue and correlates to the mental health epidemic that we see and if we're to be really extreme the suicide rates that we see with men so I think the work that Charlie is doing is incredibly important in giving men the space to to read his words to see his pictures and to feel the feelings and to know that it's okay to feel down or to cry.

27:46I think the work that he's doing in that area is exceptional. Thank you, Charlie. We love you. Oh, let's talk about Ashley Waters. Ashley Waters came on the show around the release of Adolescence on Netflix, which obviously gave us some really meaty topics to get into around masculinity and internet algorithms. Now he's learned some huge life lessons himself which he's very generous in storytelling around particularly from his time in prison. It's something that could have defined his life very negatively if he'd let it but he managed to switch his mindset and gain a lot from that period. That was a higher power moment for me now I look back on it.

28:28I don't think I understood that at the time but there's been several moments throughout my career where my higher power has done for me what I wasn't willing to do for myself and at the time when that's happening I get very disturbed by like what's going on around me like when I when I ended up when they shut that prison door on me I was like wow like how did I end up here you know in your mind you're like I didn't see this for myself or maybe I did but like I'm a I'm a good person like I I'm not meant to be in this situation but actually where I was outside of prison I wasn't meant to be and I wasn't willing to step away from loyalty, from friends, from brotherhood, from some toxic sort of masculinity that was going on.

29:27Like I wasn't willing to step away from it because I wasn't strong enough and I was fearful of what the other side would be like or whatever. So my high power took it away from me, you know, said, all right, you're not going to do what you need to do for yourself there you go and let me sit down by myself and it was only in that moment I was like wow you know there's a lot of like my gran my gran's a very spiritual person very very religious and she would never send me any letters talking about how are you or whatever she'd just send me passages from the bible just different passages to the point that eventually I started to read because in the beginning I was like I'm not reading this it's ridiculous ridiculous um but eventually like you you know you got time on your hands yeah I started reading and just started understanding kind of this was meant to happen to me and I think at that point I started to take advantage of the position I was in you know I mean I was like I stopped feeling sorry for myself stopped kind of wondering why I was there or whatever and said okay well what am I going to do while I'm here how do I get positivity out of this you know I hadn't I hadn't passed my GCSEs in school I did pretty well but I didn't do as good as I wanted to in my English and maths they were offering GCSEs in there I took that I started working in the kitchen I did a food hygiene course do you know what I mean I was like let me try and better myself whilst I'm in this environment and let me sit down and analyze where it went wrong you know and I quickly realized like Like a big part of why I was there was because of the company that I was keeping.

31:14And no one in my circle, I looked around me and no one in my circle, I actually wanted to be like. I didn't want to be like any of these people. Like I was more scared of them than anything else. Do you know what I mean? It was like, and I realized that I had to like, if I put my, I needed to put myself in a situation where I'm the dumbest sort of person in the room. Right. Like where I, like all the people around me I'm aspiring to. Do you know what I mean? Like I want to copy what they've done. I want to be like them. I want to get to where they are. And that changed my whole mindset. That was like a big thing for me.

31:52And that came through books. That came through reading like The Long Walk to Freedom, Nelson Mandela. I read The Scholar by Courtier Newland. There was little gems in those books and my granny's letters that really made me understand about that kind of, like how I could change things for me immediately. So coming out of prison, that was the first thing I did. I became a recluse to other people. But to me, I was like re-evaluating what I wanted to do. and I slowly but surely just distanced myself from the world that I knew. God, you know what? I'm so grateful to Ashley in, I mean, it's not like he's just done this on Happy Place.

32:36You know, he's talked openly about his life experiences in a book form and also when he does talks and he is so willing to go there and talk about those rock bottom moments, which, you know, many of you listening may have had. I've certainly had myself and I think it's probably only with time and distance that you can look back and recognize it as a rock bottom but also see the gifts that it gives you and that might sound like reductive or like a bit wishy-washy like oh yeah you know this terrible time but look at the silver linings but I honestly think if you if you have enough space between the rock bottom and where you are a day, you can see them.

33:17I couldn't for years. I was just angry and resentful that I had to go through certain things. But now I'm further down the line, I can see. I mean, for one, I'm doing this podcast. If I hadn't felt so absolutely ghastly, I would have just carried on presenting TV shows and doing radio shows, probably quite happily, actually. But I'm so glad that I've gone off on this totally different tangent because I'm learning. I'm learning constantly. And it's just forever interesting. And I feel massively motivated. So that is certainly one gift right there. I also think what Ashley was saying around sort of like victim mentality is huge, because yes, we need to feel our feelings.

33:59And sometimes that might mean there's a sense of injustice there, or that there's wrongdoing from another person. But that period has to end at some point. You can't live in that forever, as tempting as it is. And I definitely lived in a victim state for too long. Like I reached an expiration date and I didn't get the hint. And I think now I look back, I'm like, oh, I wish I'd recognised that in myself earlier because it doesn't help you. It doesn't benefit you in any way. You just sort of stay trapped in it. And I love that Ashley tackled that one head on and saw that there was the opportunity for change and has massively changed the whole landscape of his life and how he sees life and what he's able to achieve.

34:42It's incredible. Also how surrounding yourself with the right people is massively important and it doesn't have to be an almighty posse of humans. It can be a handful, two, three, four people that are the right people. People that lift you up, that boost you, that inspire you, that motivate you. Oh my God, there is nothing better. And Ashley again is absolute hard proof of that. Ashley Walters, you are incredible. Oh my God. Can we talk about Davina McCall? I could do a whole hour podcast on Davina because I love the bones of her. She has had a huge mindset shift as a result of a very scary moment in life and she's one of my greatest friends.

35:34We had this chat about her attitude towards her recent brain tumour surgery with all of you lot live at this summer's Happy Place Festival. I was gifted things along the way and I thought I need to get my body so I exercised a lot before the operation. I mean I exercise, you know me. I exercised a lot all the time always got a dumbbell on the go and then I thought I need to get my brain in the right place and that was to a place where I could be calm and what did I need to do to do that were my kids going sorry

36:13were my kids going to be okay if I didn't make it that's all I really cared about and you Michael Michael's like a whole person Michael's Michael but I was really worried about my kids so I went forensic on thinking about my children and where they were at in their life what stage they were at you know you're only as happy as your unhappiest child right and I came to a realisation after about six months of like cross-examining them about their life and telling them the whole time how much I've loved my life my eldest daughter caught on And she was like, you are not dying. Yeah. I was like, no, no, no.

36:55And I realized that they would be great. They'd miss me, you know, and I want to be with them, but they would be okay. And I felt like I could go to sleep on the operating table and know that they were all here to help me, but I can let go of the outcome. And it was the best gift. I am not afraid of dying. You still feel that way? I am not afraid of dying anymore. And it was the biggest journey of my life from August 23 to November 24 was an amazing time where something changed. And begin again, the podcast, I started to help other people on their journey of living a life that they love enough to feel on their deathbed, whenever that may be, that I have no regrets.

37:50I have lived the life I wanted and I'm not lying there going, I wish I'd done that thing. I wish I'd done that job. I wish I'd not stayed in this relationship. I wish I'd, you know, all of those, I haven't lived the life I want and begin again is about just begin again and live the life you want, you know. I mean, it's a really amazing place to get to. A, not being scared of dying, But I think having no regrets and feeling like you are living fully in the life you want to be in. And I think it's quite rare. And I think with a health scare, there'll be plenty of people here. I've spoke to many of you this weekend who have been in that position.

38:29They've had a big health scare. And it does wake you up to that, that we've not got all the time in the world, that we haven't got time to waste. After I got better and I came up to London and I started taking the tube again. and I remember sitting on the tube and looking at everybody and I nearly turned into the weirdo that goes down the tube going, smile, honestly, this is life, you're alive. This is amazing, we're on a tube and it gets us through London much quicker than a car. This is great, you're alive, this is going to be amazing. Do something brilliant today, you're going to see a friend.

39:03You're seeing a friend, yes. Like, I literally wanted to do that. I thought, no, don't do that. Oh, I wish you had. You will scare people. Oh, but it would have gone viral on Instagram and it would have been so cool. Oh, I love that, but I get it. I get it. You have the scare and it's like, it's a wake-up call. It's a massive wake-up call. We're so lucky. You know, we had a wake-up call and we're here. Yeah, it's amazing. It's a gift. So me and Davina have been friends for years and years. I've known her for a long time, but we kind of really solidified that friendship when we did this horrendous sport relief cycle.

39:42I hated it. I hated every minute. The only redeeming factor was, well, we raised lots of money, but also, as with Davina, on a tour bus and on the back of a bike quite often. But we really became close then and have been ever since. And weirdly, we went through this strange period at a similar time where I was having a tumour removed from my parotid gland, which is your saliva gland, and Davina was having her tumour removed from her brain. her operation was a few weeks before mine and I found so much comfort in the advice that she had for me after we spoke every day whilst I was in hospital I was checking in on her recovery she was checking in on me and we both get quite emotional whenever we sort of talk about it that we both went through that experience together and she I mean I am I owe her big time I'm so grateful to Davina for life for how amazing she was and supportive she was during that time considering she was going through it as well and I think both of us have landed on the fact that we need to slow down in life like rush around less I certainly I can't speak for Davina but I certainly need to manage my stress levels better because we all know that stress manifests in various ways in the body and creates inflammation etc and we never know where that's going to lead to so it's definitely been a big one for me in terms of that Davina also talked about being on your deathbed knowing that you've squeezed everything out of life and knowing that it's never too late to start again which I think is hugely important especially for women women in midlife where we sort of I don't know supposedly meant to just disappear I think you can just do whatever you can start again in terms of whatever you want to do and your mindset, your hobbies, your friendship groups, whatever it is.

41:33And Davina will always for me be that person that I look to who is that little bit older that is living life on her terms, wearing these like incredible little hot pants with little white socks and heeled loafers looking fit as can be and just living life how she wants to. she'll inspire me forever. Davina McCall I love you for life. All right let's end on this absolute gem from last month. Getting to chat with Malala was one of the highlights not only of the year but of my life and I'm not exaggerating saying that I mean what an opportunity. I felt so privileged that I got to experience her unbelievable passion for the rights of women and girls all over the world, as well as getting to know the real her, like just the real young woman Malala, beneath all the impressive accolades and titles and things that she's received.

42:27She brilliantly summed up the insane standards all women are held to when I asked her about the time the paparazzi took a photo of her wearing jeans at uni. I was very careful in the beginning at university because I thought somebody would take a photo, put it out of context, and there would be a whole controversy. I was not expecting that it would be my jeans. And somebody took this photo of me, of course, without my consent. And that photo went viral. And there was a whole backlash and controversy saying shame on Malala for wearing jeans. And I just could not understand what was happening? Why was I not supposed to wear casual university student-like clothes?

43:12Because I wanted to look like every other student. I know when I wear my traditional Pakistani shalwar kameez, I look more like the public figure that I am. So in college, I intentionally did not want to wear that. And I am proud of my dress and I love wearing it. Even right now I'm wearing it. But at college, I just wanted to have the choice to be able to wear the clothes that I preferred And I remember getting a call from my parents. They were really upset. And I told my parents that I am not going to defend myself on this. And people will always have something to say. I'm not here for some pilgrimage.

43:48I'm here to be a student. And I reminded my dad that when my brothers moved to this country, they immediately switched to jeans and tops. Nobody criticized them. There was no controversy. But I decided to wear jeans right now. And it's a problem. So it's women and girls who have to take the burden, who have to cope with the trolling and the abuse. And we cannot allow that. So I never defend myself. People always have something to say that is very, very crazy. If it's a helpful input, I take it. But other than that, I know there will always be something. Yeah. I mean, trolling is never a helpful input ever.

44:27It's just not. And you were called everything from, you know, too casual to a porn star. Yeah. Which is wild. Yes. And I also saw that there were some people who were criticizing me for wearing a headscarf because they thought that I was not liberal enough or I was not fully free if I was still following my culture and my tradition. And I disagreed with all of those opinions because everybody was trying to control the way I dressed. But the message that we are promoting, those of us who are talking about women's freedom and liberty, is that women should be able to make these choices for themselves.

45:04And freedom and liberation is not following just the Western culture, but it can look different in every culture. It's about women and girls having the ability to make choices for themselves. that's the most important thing too right and that's exactly what this whole chapter of your life has been about is finding out what you want not what everybody else is telling you you should be or how you should live it's what you want and that's never an easy path yeah for the majority of us if we stay in line if we fit in with what pleases other people life is seemingly easier although it's not because you're constantly not showing up authentically and not working out who you are.

45:43Do you feel at this point in your life now, with everything you've been through and having that as normal as it can be experience of going to university, that you're any closer to knowing who you are? Definitely. I am more of myself. I'm at peace with myself. I have a lot of friends. I have found love. I know how I want to do my activism. Girls' education is my lifetime mission. And I want to see that world where every girl can go to school. But I also have a better understanding that this is a lot more difficult and it's more complex. But I'm determined to ensure that every girl, especially those who are banned in Afghanistan, can go to school and every child can have a normal, safe life.

46:27And I also know that I will not have an answer to every question in my mind. As I explore the coming years, there would be so many things that would be happening for the first time. It's okay not to know it all. It's okay to make mistakes, to be confused, to be adventurous. But the most important thing is that I stay true to myself and that I ask for help when I need it. Do you know what? This is one of those chats that actually continued after the recording and found itself at the dining room table. Me and my kids have talked a hell of a lot about Malala. Some of the time, my kids are massively unfussed about, obviously, anything I do.

47:09I'd be like, oh, guys, I interviewed Blah Blah today. And they're like, yeah, cool. Can I play PlayStation? It's literally that. But there was something about me explaining who Malala was and what she's done that captured their imaginations massively. And even this morning on the school run, my daughter again asked me, oh, can you talk about Malala? because we saw her on Newsround in school today because they watch it at school every lunchtime. And we had this really amazing chat about the suppression of women in parts of the world and the girls that Malala is trying to massively help and the rights to education.

47:44And my kids, you know, rightly so couldn't believe there is hearing about how some young women don't have the rights to do anything. And they were asking me such intriguing questions. And that just felt like such an amazing gift that that chat then enabled me to have this amazing conversation with my kids that is quite frankly sort of still ongoing but I think that story in particular about you know Malala wearing jeans and the absolute outrage is emblematic of everything well everything that women are still up against today like the basics the basic basic rights I think you know I obviously live in the Western world where we do have many more rights, but I still think, weirdly, my position in the public eye means that often as a woman, I am judged for everything that I do or say.

48:35And a lot of the time you can't win and you certainly can't please everybody. But you might think you're doing the right thing by saying one thing or doing one thing, but then another group of people are pissed off with you. Certainly around, again, like women's choices as to how they express themselves with clothing or body image and how women have been shamed. You know, even in the 90s when I was on TV and in magazines around that time, the shaming of women's bodies was just abhorrent and, you know, not much has really changed. I also loved the way that Malala tackled the difficulties she's had with her own mum and the sort of rules and expectations that her family have put on her.

49:19But she's done it all with humour in the book. It's very, very clever. I loved her discussions around that and how many of us still feel like we're disappointing our parents or we're sort of waiting for their validation. I found that part of the conversation really, really interesting. And I think it motivates me even more to want to live life on my own terms. And as I reach my mid-40s, I feel deeply passionate about that. and I don't even know what that looks like entirely but I do feel a fire in my belly that I want to really do that and Malala is someone that we can all look to to see that we've all got that in us to be brave and courageous stand up for what we believe in and to live life on our terms in 2026 and beyond.

50:05Now do keep an eye out on your podcast feeds because next year you're going to be hearing a little bit more of me and my musings which I hope you're up for. In the meantime massive thanks again to every single person who shared their story with Happy Place this year my god I'm grateful and that includes you lot too. I feel like I get to know you better you lovely listeners every year online and at the festival and other Happy Place events so honestly from the bottom of my heart thank you for being here you are absolutely the bloody best and thanks to my amazing producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios for another amazing year of the Happy Place podcast and have a very happy new year love ya

51:04Thank you.