Olivia Attwood: Botox, catastrophising, and trolls

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. Today we're heading back to the Happy Place Festival in Tatton Park for a chat with Olivia Atwood. You have that rhetoric and you see it, the few women broadcasters and people who actually age naturally and they don't do Botox or whatever, everyone's like, oh, look at her. You look how terribly she's ageing and she looks like this and that. And then you flip to the person who's done a facelift, oh, mutton. Ultimately, people who want to criticise and they want to control and guilt women. It's a really easy way to do it through the way that we look.

0:37And they feign concern for, well, I'm really concerned about her. She's had too much surgery. She's too thin or she's put on weight. It's not concern. It's just a really clever tactic to try and control us. Olivia shot to fame literally overnight. And we talk about that petrifying whirlwind after Love Island in 2017. With so many young people hanging off her every word, She's used her voice amazingly to make documentaries like The Price of Perfection, which I loved. I mean, I was horrified watching it at times, completely titillated. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It's really, really good.

1:14And Olivia Atwood versus the Trolls, which, again, is essential viewing and really digs deep into some properly meaty topics. and she's got a new ITV2 show, Bad Boyfriends, that started the night that we recorded this actual chat. It was such a beautiful day at the Happy Place Festival. My heart was absolutely full. I'd had a day of laughing and crying quite a lot. It was definitely an emotional one and I was so chuffed that Olivia was up for coming to the festival. Luckily, she lives down the road so that was handy, but I really wanted to talk to her about a whole range of things. Definitely trolling, definitely how she's dealt with fame.

1:53But also, I think the age I'm at now at 43, there is this constant pressure that I should not be ageing. And I think that that sort of messaging and also imagery can feel really thrust in your face at times at my age, but at ages a lot younger than me too. So it's a subject that I was really keen to learn more about, get curious about and quiz Olivia about.

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3:57All right, come on then. Let's do it. Here's the show.

4:22It's so nice to have you here. Oh, it's so nice to be here. I have to apologise for the hat. It's all fun and games having a fringe until it rains and you realise it might have been a massive mistake. I cut a fringe about a year and a half ago because it was this idea, I couldn't get out of my head. I thought, I've got to just get it over and done with. It's so hard work. It's so hard work. It keeps you awake at night until you do it. Like, it's all consuming. All I thought about was fringe. Yeah. And I didn't quite know how to work with it. Was I meant to, was I blow drawing it with a round brush?

4:55And then you do the straighteners and it's out here. Yes. Yeah, it's the whole thing. So the hat, and then I'm feeling like Joe from You. I love the hat. And it's raining, so it's perfect. It's all good. I mean, you haven't had to travel very far, which is genius too. Local for once. It's amazing. Love that. Yeah. And it's a big day for you today because your new TV show starts tonight. How are you feeling about that? 9pm ITV2. Hope everyone's going to go home and watch. I'm excited. It's been a labour of love. It's been two years in the making. It's a hard time to make telly because we don't really know what anyone wants.

5:31So we're trying to make it entertaining and engaging, but also make sure that it's given those right parameters because reality TV has changed a lot over the last 10 years. And I think we've hit the sweet spot. I enjoy watching it. Me is my least favourite part of the whole series, if I'm honest. Every time I watch it in the edit, I'm like, just get me off it. Oh, there's nothing worse than watching yourself back. Anyone that enjoys watching themselves can't relate. No, no, same, same, same. I mean, you started out on TV in 2017, looking back at your own career trajectory and looking back on that era.

6:09How does it make you feel? Because I'm sure it's whizzed by very quickly. Yeah, it's one of those weird things where it feels like it was yesterday. But also sometimes I try and draw memories from it and it feels like so long ago. Kind of just surreal. And I hate when people say that because that just sounds like a really cliche answer. But I think especially with Series 3 of Love Island, we all went in with such low expectation. You know, we didn't expect anything, really. I expected a few more Instagram followers, hopefully, and some free clothes, a couple of PAs with my mates. Like, none of us expected to go on to do half the things that we've done.

6:42So it was, yeah, a great surprise. It's amazing. And I love what you've done. Because, yes, you know, you can go on a reality show and you can get five minutes of success or attention. but actually you've really now channeled it into, oh, what do I like and what do I want to talk about? And I've loved watching your documentaries over the last few years. I really love The Price of Perfection. I found it just utterly fascinating. It's a subject matter that I'm deeply intrigued about. I'm sure most of you have seen it, but if anyone hasn't, obviously Olivia deep dives into looking at Botox and filler and tweakments and all the different range of things that you can get done today and also I think just what it is to be a woman in the modern age and the pressures that we all feel yeah I I've never had Botox I've never had filler I've never done a single thing because I'm sort of terrified about it for a couple of reasons I think I guess I don't know what I would look like and that freaks me out a bit but also as you've said on many occasion it's a slippery slope once you've started is it a slippery slope you're happy to be on um yes and no like you say the face of the cosmetic industry has changed and that's what i wanted the show to reflect because you know there's a lot of shows out there showing the extremes and botched and people that have you know done all this crazy stuff but it's the everyday person and and generally more women who are having treatments done um sometimes treatments they can't afford sometimes treatments done by practitioners that have no qualifications no medical training that we have a complete wild west out there when it comes to aesthetics in this country there are no regulations so there's two really interesting things there it's like the motivation for why so many women like myself have felt pressured or desired to dabble in cosmetic treatment and then is the actual industry itself and if people are going to do things how can they do them and stay safe and it was fascinating and shocking at times for sure yeah it definitely seem like you were conflicted because there was moments where you've got girls as young as 18 who are having regular lip filler and and things done to their face which you seemed unnerved about yet you also do feel like your confidence is boosted and it's something that you enjoy doing it's a tricky one it's a tricky one and there's like you know a woman in my 30s and I probably first had Botox into my sort of mid-20s because a lot of the girls I was working with at the time they all we're getting Botox so I thought I'll get it and I even thought even that was young but then to like you say meet teenage girls who are having lip fillers Botox that was shocking to me because I just didn't know that was happening and that you know it's a big argument for everyone to say what is too young you know in my opinion that is too young but everyone's going to have their own opinion because in so many ways your face and your body is still changing so how can we start messing around with things or deciding we don't like something that's not even fully developed you know and do is it possible to ever reach a moment where if you've started having tweakments or botox whatever that you go and now I'm happy yeah I think it's hard to speak on that in a general term like I think it depends what you're trying to get out of it I think if anyone's going for cosmetic treatments looking for happiness you're on a road to nowhere so if doing little bits and bobs or doing things with your skin whatever it helps your confidence and you feel like you're in control of that journey then it's great but I think if you are going through a breakup or you're suffering with depression and then you're like okay I'm gonna get my boobs done everything's gonna be great it's not gonna work and then you're just gonna look for the next thing to give you that dopamine high and the next thing and that's when I think people get unstuck and I guess it's the slippery slope is due to the fact that once you've started to go oh this could be different that could be different we can all you know I could pick 10 floors things I don't like about my face now you know I'm in my 40s now these lines are just getting deeper and deeper and the lines in my forehead and all this sort of stuff I can see and I think if I started it would be never ending there would always be something else that I could go to does that worry you you know you're in your 30s but sort of looking to the future and aging yeah a hundred percent and I think because I'm you know a strong-minded person who are and I would describe myself as someone who's happy in myself so even though I do indulge in your treatments things like that it doesn't consume a lot of headspace for me like it's kind of something that every few months I go oh I'm gonna it's just kind of routine but I don't spend loads of time looking at myself and actually you know what it's like when you're in this industry I try to avoid looking at myself as much as possible so I think that my relationship with it I'm quite happy with but like you say it's very hard to know where you sit on it and before you know you are in that obsessive stage because like you say once you've done one thing and that's made you feel good you can look at the next thing and where does it end you know and you that when it comes down to have a little word of yourself and you go okay we're a human being this is how people events you know human faces are meant to move and they're meant to have you know lines and paws and everything and unfortunately we don't see many real faces you know anywhere especially not online so you have to online and people around you maybe aren't gonna sort of educate you on that but you have to remind yourself oh my god Without a doubt, I think, you know, it all started, I guess, looking at social media, also bringing filters into the equation that you can and people tweaking their face just digitally.

12:28So then when they do look in the mirror, they're like, oh, God, I don't look like the person that I want to sort of express to the world. That freaks me out as well. Well, I had a really interesting conversation with some of my friends and some girls we met during the doc. And actually, I think being in this industry, weirdly, has made it easier for me to know what's real. because I see these influences and I see these people, these celebrities, and then I see them in real life, and yet they look amazing. No one looks like their Instagram pictures, whereas I was talking to my friend and she was like, yeah, but I'd never see so-and-so in real life.

13:01So how would I know that no one actually, they look, they're amazing and they're perfect and beautiful, but they don't look like that. And I guess if you never have contact with the people you follow on Instagram in the flesh, you never get that kind of reality check. No, I know. It's like when people say when you go on the beach, how many people look like we all think on the beach i don't want to go on the beach in my bikini because this is how many supermoders you see on the beach no and also if anyone takes a picture of a bikini they've usually done something weird with their bodies where they've gone like yes one hip out suck the tummy in and like they've made this sort of shape 100 and like i i'm not a hot summer girl like that is not my thing like i'm i'm good in the autumn i'm good in the winter like I'll wear a boot I've got a coat on you're hibernation season yeah I'm like in this I look so shit on the beach like I look I never wear my hair back because this is one of my things if I could do a treatment I'd bring my hairline down an inch I've got a big forehead so I can't wear my hair back so I look like an egg and I'm sort of sweaty and it's not good but I know I understand that pressure I think for women especially I know there's some men in the audience here and I'm sure there'll be men that think well I don't like some things about myself but the societal pressure and the pressure that comes from the media and social media for women to pin so much self-worth to what they look like it seems to only be ramping up it does and then I think you have it's weird because some people would argue and say well look at social media there's a whole movement now that's about realness and body positivity and there's some influencers who are posting things that are you know very kind of raw and exposing like you know in grown hairs or they're showing stretch marks or whatever and you think then that that's having a balance but like I think on the other side that you say that it's it's almost pushing the extremes in both directions you know but I think your self-worth journey is something that you have to go on on your own because if we think about it with women since the beginning of time the beauty standards have always been there yeah they just evolved and I don't think they're ever going to go on anywhere unfortunately but you have to have that self-worth conversation with yourself and for me you know pre-love island around the beginning of love island times my self-worth was very much correlated to how I look and that was because that's how I made my money and I was doing pageants and I was doing loads of things that were no one cared what I had to say and you know they made that really clear because I can't shut up so it's like really hard just wear the bikini and please just button it but now I've got into a situation in my life where people actually care what I have to say so my journey has kind of changed a little bit and although I still like to look you know whatever I feel is my version of good and glamorous it actually doesn't acclimate to my self-worth as much as it did yeah I mean I think all of us are trying to find that balance it's hard are going you know where am I putting my self-worth and I mean it's it's tricky to know what's healthy because I could say I put too much of my self-worth in in my working life and I don't it's not much different it's like actually we just need to find it with sort of liking ourselves generally which is a hard one But I find as I'm getting older, I've got this sense of rebellion that kicks in, especially when it comes to women, because I did a little experiment the other day where I sort of put something on social media about this.

16:36I was Googling lots of different front covers of magazines and looking at how women are represented, whether they're models or famous people, whatever. And it was always for the women, no matter what their age, looking at some sort of celebrities we know who are in their 50s, 60s. it seemed to be like how young can we make them look and like if there's any lines or wrinkles airbrush them out just make them look all young and glamorous and then you look at say a men's magazine gq or whatever it is and you take someone of a similar age someone like idris elba or someone that we can think of that's very famous and and aging and they don't try and make them look younger if anything all the men on the front covers do this face the rugged and yeah the and they want the the lines on the forehead like the more lines the better and then we're all trained to go oh my god he's actually getting fitter as he gets older yeah but then for women we go oh which do you know what i mean and it's like how does that happen that's not actually what we think we've just been told that oh okay so men get hotter and those lines on the forehead mean like oh they're intelligent too but then for women it's like oh she's aging bloody hell like that is to me psychologically wild and then you have that rhetoric and you see it the few women broadcasters and people who actually you know age naturally and they don't do botox whatever the yeah everyone's like oh look at her she looked you know how terribly she's aging and she looks like this and it's like that and then you flip to the person who's done a face of the oh mutton you can't win because you do the thing you look like you're desperate and you've got a waxy face or whatever if you don't do it they're like oh my god please get some botox so it's like what you meant to do i don't know you really just do what makes you happy ultimately i think that is the way forward and it's really hard to shut out the outside noise because it's so loud but it's the same thing with weight it's the same thing you know you're either too heavy or you're too thin and that's what you know you can see both sides of that online you know you're either go and eat a burger this and the other and then someone who's pervier fuller figure is getting all the opposite comments so where's the middle there isn't one because ultimately people who want to criticize and and they want to control and guilt women it's a really easy way to do it through the way that we look and the way and they feign concern for well gone really concerned about her she's had too much surgery so she's too thin or she's put on weight it's not concern it's just a really clever tactic to try and control us I absolutely agree and I think that's why I love that documentary specifically because I came away from it going do you know what not that I had any judgment before but I understand this even more that there are women out there doing these treatments for all manner of reasons sometimes it is confidence sometimes it's pressure but actually the only way we can sort of beat that narrative that's being shoved down our throats is like you said, to do what makes us feel good.

19:37It's the only way to beat it. 100%. I really loved it. I really loved it. The other documentary I loved was the trolling documentary because it's a huge issue. The stat that came out that you talked about in the doc is that one third of young Brits have been trolled, which I found sort of not shocking, but awful. Like, oh God, that is happening. It is happening everywhere. and it's not just to people that are in the public eye, it's in schools, bullying has now sort of transferred to this sinister underground online bullying and trolling and it's a serious problem that doesn't sadly seem to be getting much better.

20:15No, and I think that was my biggest shock in making the doc was that it does transfer now to people who aren't on social media for a career or they're not from telly, like you say, playground bullying now just comes online. So it's under control in schools to an extent, which I know in a lot of cases it isn't. But if it is, then what happens is they go home and they announce each other online. And some of the stuff that I saw was so disturbing. And it's just there is no lid on it at the moment, unfortunately. And it's just way too easy for people to make a fake account, send a load of really disturbing, hateful stuff, and then just disappear.

20:54and it's something that the social media companies have to get hold of because there surely is a way to deter people from doing this. I know how. There is so little governance that it terrifies me. My son turns 12 in the new year and I've already said to him, you're not getting a phone until you're 14. I'm going to try and keep him off social media as long as possible. But how many of his phones have phones? So many. I'd say half of his mates already have a phone. It's scary, isn't it? It's really... And also, it's sort of unavoidable because then he'll go to someone's house and they're looking on their phone or whatever.

21:25So I feel as a parent, utterly freaked out. And also I know from being in the public eye that I still, after all of these years, do not cope well when someone is, for the sake of it, giving me abuse or saying something awful. So how is a kid supposed to? We're not, I think that's the other part of it. We need to work out how we help kids navigate this. 100%. Because it's not going anywhere. It's not going anywhere. And I think it's like a case, like you said, of education for kids and then also for parents to know the risks and how to cope with it. Because I do think there's something so terrible about thinking of a child reading something.

22:06And also when it's in writing, they can keep going back to it. And if you see something enough, you start to believe it. And that was the case with some of the people I met that, you know, they were just in secret from their parents would go back and look at these messages. And if it didn't affect them the first time they read it, three or four times they're looking at it, you start to think, oh, is that true? Am I all those things? Should I be here? Like, it's terrifying. And, you know, hurt people hurt people. The people that are doing the trolling have really complex issues. but unfortunately we still have to protect people from them you know this is there's two massive issues going on here but i think if it wasn't so kind of consequence free then it might slow down a little bit you you know there's a lot of the things that you people say online they wouldn't shout at someone in the street because if a policeman or someone overheard you'd be arrested and that would be you know you but they it's a very safe space just to spew it's terrifying i I mean, you actually met up with a guy that had been imprisoned for sending some horrendously graphic and misogynistic comments online.

23:13And part of me was like, oh, right. So you can go to prison for this. That's a good thing that there is a consequence. But actually, when you met him, he was this very unassuming, placid, very nervous character who seemed extremely remorseful. And that's not what my mind would jump to when I think of a troll. I think of someone who's a bit of a bully. I actually, sadly, I think probably from my years being in the public eye, I often think of them as being someone who knows better than me, which is worrying. Like I can sometimes go, oh God, maybe what they're saying about me is right, which is a whole other psychological thing I have to work through.

23:51But to see this guy who was sort of quite nervous and felt very sorry for his actions was really jarring. Did that change your mind as to how you think about trolls? It did a little bit, I have to say. And that day was hard because I'd done all the research of who I was going to meet, read all the things that he'd written, and it was to an MP, and it was just horrendous stuff. I went in there with this mindset. I was really, like, riled up about it, and I was like, I'm going to give him a really hard time. And then, like you say, when he came and met me, straight away I just felt sorry for him.

24:23I instantly was like, this person is, you know, he's remorseful because he obviously was caught and he had to do his time and whatever but I just saw a very sad person and it was a very long chat we talked for over an hour but obviously you know you can't fit that all into one show and what he described to me was that time in his life and he was miserable at work and he had no friends and and it just the story of what I think it is with so many people that troll and again it's not excusable and the devastating effect it had on the person that he trolled it's not an excuse but you can't help but have a human empathy for someone when they're standing in front of you and you think I kind of get it because all humans want to feel is important that's like that's like our thing that you know makes us feel alive right and that's like one of the basic human needs is to feel important and I think so many people especially post-pandemic are lonely they're looking for validation they're looking for human connection and that was his way of satisfying that and he said the reason he carried on doing is he wrote that one really awful tweet and then all these other trolls came out the woodwork and they were like you're great this is hilarious retweeted it and he felt really good he's getting a kick out of it and again I'm not validating but it just gives you a little peek behind the curtain of why some people do this stuff yeah I mean it it massively reframed a lot of it for me and um has made me think differently about it if I you know luckily I don't get trolls too much these days but back when I was on the radio where you're in this public forum and you're on the BBC's turf it's like it's a whole other thing it's definitely made me think differently about things one thing I was shocked about was this website called tattle life where it's like a home for trolls they're all on there letting rip going for it that to me was like oh my god that exists I I felt quite naive.

26:21Like, I can't believe that sort of place exists, that people are enjoying getting together and causing that level of negativity. I'm sure some of you have heard of it, because I didn't realise how many people knew about this website, and I was ignorant to it as well. And it's just literally forums where they start threads under different topics, and they just write awful things. And you see on the app, we tried to track down. I mean, it's like an IP address in Arizona. owner it's like we went down a goose chase like you literally can't pinpoint whoever is you know running this thing owns this thing it's just it's like trying to catch a ghost but it's bizarre and also again I just think you you could just shut it down and just kind of like nip it in the sauce but there's obviously someone's monetizing somewhere from that and they don't want it to go anywhere but it's really horrible and it's dark I mean I've had my own thread I had my way My way of coping with things often is laughing.

27:19It's the only way. I just read stuff like that. That's actually quite funny. I understand for a lot of people that is not the case. And I've met people who it's like ruined their life because they can't disconnect from it and they check it every day. And the things people write are really awful. And then you read things about you that are really personal. They think only someone who knows me must have written that. So then you stop trusting people. It was horrible. Yeah, horrible.

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28:58When you were on Love Island, obviously you went from having a relatively normal existence and being able to go about your business to quite literally overnight. I'm not sure what the ratings were for that series, but I'm sure they were absolutely through the roof high. Millions of people watching. Millions of people looking on social media to then follow your experience after Love Island. And I'm sure because of the nature of the show, you're getting positive and negative comments. How did you cope with that? I mean, I don't know if you guys remember my series. I was quite a divisive character.

29:29So I definitely got, you know, a mixed reaction. I think with Love Island, in my experience, and I'm not speaking for everyone that does this show, because I went in at the beginning and I went out at the end. It's all happening live, right? So actually, it was worse for my family and friends because they're reading it all as it's happening. I'm actually like oblivious to what's going on. And then this kind of strange thing happens when you come out of the villa. You just start searching your name and you start reading the debates. And it's very disarming because you've just been living this life in this bubble in this villa.

30:03And then you realize that people have been feeling really passionate about what they've been watching. So you're kind of getting your head around that. But then as you come out, they kind of humanise you a little bit more because you're on your stories and you can kind of show a little bit more of yourself outside of the show. So it turns a bit of a corner. But it's definitely a learning curve. Look, on that series was the one that went really big and I think no one really fully expected it to kind of do what it did. And we all hit like a million followers within like 24 hours of being out. That's quite scary.

30:38Yeah. How do I navigate this? I didn't earn it. I don't know what to do with it. And you're just looking at it like, what do I do? And then, yeah, you learn on the job, as it were. Always been quite thick-skinned. My mum, my sister, my family, the way we are, it's kind of a tough love family. And I come from that modelling background and doing pageants and stuff. So never shied away from people's opinions. I've always been quite resilient to it. and I think that helped me, put me in good stead. But for some people, that's not the case at all. And I know for some people, it's incredibly difficult.

31:16And it's one of those, it's like some days I found it, I was really disconnected from it and someone would write something really specifically mean and I just feel like I'm kind of comedically good. Like you're wasting a bit of a talent here. You shouldn't be on the Daily Mail. You should be doing some standout somewhere. It's actually quite decent. And then other days, you're having a rubbish day and someone's like oh you look like you know praying mantis you're like my god I'm like a praying mantis so it just depends what day you're having doesn't it it does I mean I'm probably the other end of the spectrum I am much more sensitive I don't think I've got a thick skin at all but you must have on some level you wouldn't have been able to do what you've done I mean I but I've had periods of my career where I've gone I'm out I'm done like I'm absolutely like so close to I'm out I'm done because of dealing with the absolutely I mean certainly one period of my life where I mean I was quite lucky because I started so long ago like in I started telly in 1996 so there was no didn't have the internet going in 96 just about like I don't know it was there was I didn't know what people thought of me I could do a tv show and I could go home and then I'd go to the park and have my mates and I wouldn't think about it ever again so I think I found that introduction to I remember when Twitter came about and I was on the radio Reggie and I were doing a show and he was like oh have you seen this thing called Twitter and I was like oh this is exciting and it all felt quite cool at first and like a way to connect with people and I think incrementally we realized oh there is there's another side to this and people and actually when we were on the radio we used to have this I don't know if they still have this like a screen up and it would just have all the text messages coming in relentlessly which was really full-on back then because we weren't using social media so it was a direct way of communicating right into the studio I mean again with no filter and I became a little bit desensitized to that because it was every day like you know some lovely things and lovely funny messages but obviously the odd thing that was just and people sort of saying you're not good and I think it's really tricky to keep your self-worth but also your self-compassion in place when that is an everyday thing because you do think well there must be some truth in this and I actually don't think there is I think you know deep down we all know what our capabilities are and what our skill set is but I certainly back in the day really took everything to heart and I think it was my self-worth and my self-compassion that dwindled so quickly and I would then turn on myself and think well I'm not good or I'm not you know worthwhile being on this radio station or whatever it might be do you think it impacts your self-love do you like yourself yes most days I mean like you say self-love and self-liking myself for me has definitely been a journey um and I think during my teen years my early 20s um I had a difficult time at school in the sense that I had friends and I had fun but that was about all I knew um and I had the undiagnosed ADHD so I had you know a lot of guilt I was wondering why some people found things easier than me and I think I went through a really I've gone through a really big journey of liking myself and loving myself and I think that like you say this industry is a funny one because you find yourself in like what is like a dream job and you're like okay I'm actually really good at this and then someone's like no you're not like even though it's just some random guy from you know wherever a woman it's a weird thing because there's not many other jobs unless you're like a sports person or you're on telly or anything public you don't just like run down to the local kind of accountants and bang on the window go you're not good at your job by the way yeah or like you know so it's really strange to have someone to be at work and people telling you your crap at your job while they're doing it because you're like just let me finish my shift exactly but then there's loads of you know i'm never gonna sit here and you know like say i'm a victim or anything because it's also a very privileged lovely exceptionally fun job to do so I think with any job in life period there's like the good and the bad and I think unfortunately with this day and age we're doing any public facing job whether it's a sports person or an artist or whatever the negative side is is the the constant standing trial in the court of human opinion which can be tough absolutely we had Gary Neville sat in this very chair yesterday we did a podcast with Gary and his wife Emma and he was saying oh this crowd is so lovely in comparison to the football crowd who are really unforgiving and will turn on someone in a heartbeat and I think you do have to find coping mechanisms to deal with that what things tools coping mechanisms have helped you like yourself or find that level of self-compassion but actually as you say that so my husband who's in the corner bradley oh hi bradley bradley having him as a bit of a benchmark for me in terms of trolling after love island when we got back together was quite good because football fans and the things that they can write to players it's like we all know we've all seen it you know the newspapers are so awful that sometimes he would i would see messages that they get and i think god okay i've got it quite easy and he he's very you know um strong-minded and he's very kind of focused on the job and i think he's been very good at helping keep me like in check and remind me that someone on the internet messaging me doesn't define me or doesn't mean that i'm bad or good or anything in between i think as long as you are being true to yourself like cliche and your friends and family know you to be, then you can be proud of yourself.

37:17But for me, I always say to all love binders coming off, just try and spend, I know it's such an easy thing to say, try and spend as little time in your phone as possible. Do what you need to do, do what you want to do, but just don't go looking for stuff. I've never had Google Alerts on my phone. I wouldn't advise anyone to do that. Like, don't go searching your names and platforms. Because I think it's just a road to nowhere. So that's one thing. I never look for things. And quite often if I see things, it'll be because someone goes, oh, my God, did you see this? And I'll go, no, but now you've said I'll have a look.

37:50I hate that text message. Or someone sends you a text going, I'm so sorry. And you're like, no, what? I haven't read the thing. What's the story? Like, awful. The worst text message possible. So, yeah, don't go looking for it. And just, you know, live outside your phone. You know, like my life isn't what I share in there and on there is what I choose to share. And I have to remember that I am a person and I have a life that exists outside of that platform. I just have to kind of keep that disconnect. It's almost like the ship and the water metaphor. Don't let the water on because once you let a little bit on before you know it, it's flooded.

38:34So you have to kind of be really strong at keeping the water off. Yeah. Yeah. And I think all of us can do that, even off of social media. Like we can all go looking for ways to not like ourselves. It's so easy if we're like comparing ourselves to someone else or we're remembering something that we did 10 years ago that was utterly dreadful or whatever. We can easily sit there and go through a Rolodex in our mind of things to turn against ourselves. We've got to not do that. Yeah, and I think a big thing for me coming out of the early part of my 20s, and I was so reactive and I was so sort of wound up all the time.

39:09I took everything personally. And I think one thing as you get older and there's like the best piece of advice to give to anyone is that it's never actually that personal. Like that person that is rude to you or dismissive or that person at work who's just being a bit of an arsehole. I don't know if I'd swear. Oh, no, you've done loads of swearing today. Swearing's fine. It's actually never about you. And as soon as you kind of really live by that and you get it into your head, life becomes way easier. What I used to do was take on everyone's stuff, like everyone's moods, everyone's shortness over message.

39:42I used to think it's a direct reflection of me. I'm annoying. I'm a bit annoying. But actually, you realize we've all got our own stuff going on. And I think as soon as you just remember that, it makes life a lot lighter. Yeah. Are you going to forgiving yourself? Because I think that's another key element to self-compassion is being able to recognise that we've all made mistakes. Obviously, we've all done things we regret, but not just noticing it to go, you know, and that's OK. Like, I am a human. Can you forgive yourself? That forgiving myself is, you know, is one thing that I'm working on.

40:18I'd say that you're liking yourself, loving yourself, forgiving yourself all comes under a bit of an umbrella. and I think where I've come on quite a journey with liking myself, I think I give myself a hard time, especially when it comes to work and I'm a perfectionist and I want things to be amazing and I want everything to be perfect and I want everything to rate really highly and I kind of put a lot of pressure on myself and that's something I'm trying to work on a little bit. But then I think there's a good and a bad bit to that. Because, you know, if you care about things and you want them to be great, they sometimes are.

40:58You need to care about things. But not to the point where to your own detriment. And that's a struggle, I think, that a lot of people can relate to in your, you know, sort of personal life, but also more a work-life thing. It's like we wanted, like, everything to be perfect. And sometimes you just have to do your best. And, you know, that's what you've done. I agree because I'm I love doing stuff like this and I am a really ambitious person I always have been and I think certainly women need space to be able to say that like I'm ambitious I've got I've got goals I've got things I want to do and I care deeply and I want things to go well and but also leaving enough room that if things don't go well or something doesn't rate as well or a book doesn't sell as well or whatever it is that you are somehow able to continue because I I think it's such a block for all of us when something doesn't turn out as we wanted that we go, I quit.

41:55Yeah. It didn't work. I'm out. I'm mortified and I want to hide and I don't want to do this ever again. How do you climb out of that hole? Like you say, it's difficult and it's about kind of being nice to yourself and saying, well, just because this thing wasn't perfect and it didn't tick every box that I built up to in my mind, It doesn't mean that I'm terrible at it. It doesn't mean I'm never going to be arsed again. It doesn't mean I'm never going to work again. And we catastrophize, don't we? And I'm really quite bad at catastrophizing. And I think loads of people are. We write the story and write the ending before it's even happened.

42:34And I think that's a way of managing fear and managing the unknown. You go, I'm going to write this story in my head and I can predict how it's going to go. And actually stop going to, like, letter Z when you're only at A. you did this thing didn't go amazing you've written the whole story that hasn't even happened yet no one might even care that it didn't do that well maybe they maybe they thought it did do well but you just didn't and I think that can happen with like friendships with relationships across the board family um yeah and I think you just have to not write the rest of the story I had to stop myself in that moment of okay a bit disappointed but let's just stop there and let's see what happens.

43:13Take a breath. Yeah. Oh, I'm a catastrophizer. I could spiral for a good day. I write some great stories in my head. Oh, same. I say things to my husband on the morning. He go, how did you get there? He's like, it hasn't even happened yet. And I'm like, no, just thinking of the worst case scenario, aren't I? And he's like, yeah, stop. My husband, I'm glad that we've both got sort of similar chilled husbands who can go, halt. Yes. That is mad. Stop. Well, he's opened his eyes in the morning. I'm going, I just thought the dog hasn't had a haircut in like six weeks. He's like, right, I'm going to brush my teeth and we'll come back to the dog's haircut.

43:50But you do need that balance. So that's one thing as I've got older. I'm like, why didn't any of my other relationships work? I'm like, because you can't have two crazies. You have to have one calm. You have to have calm. Someone has to mellon it out. No, that's the same. Me and my husband, he is the same calm person in the relationship. And I love that. I mean, you've always come across, whether it's in the documentaries or on Love Island or talking to you now, as someone that has perhaps a natural confidence or has that been cultivated. I think one of the things that I find when I'm doing a podcast or I'm doing a talk or I'm walking around the festival is that people who have great ideas, want to try something new, are really blocked by feeling like that confidence isn't there.

44:34Or is there like a top tip or is there advice that you would give for people to try and find that inner confidence? so I was the shyest kid ever and I know that would just you wouldn't even believe it if my mum was here she'd tell you that I was that first day of school every single year they'd be like right get ready for that the waterworks hanging onto the leg like my mum just didn't understand my brother and sister was so confident my mum's really confident person just came out the womb like that super anxious child and that followed me through my teen years my early school career and then it followed me into my first relationships and what I did was I kind of I hung everything on the first boyfriend I have and I used to hang on to people and things to make me feel safe and this pattern went on for years and I'd say it went on until my sort of early 20s and I had this list of things I was afraid of and that list just grew all the time I you know I was scared of lifts I was scared of flying but every day I'd add a new thing and what I was actually doing and I didn't realize this was making my world as small as I physically could because then I was like it's safe and and I don't have to go outside my comfort zone and I don't have to feel like I don't know what to expect where I'm going and it's a really hard one to sort of tell to people because it happened to me kind of not overnight it's not overnight but I had a couple of periods a week where something came over me I was like what what are you actually doing like with your life that you actually you've made your world so small because you don't like being uncomfortable you don't like putting yourself out there and I just made this really conscious effort where it's like I'm going to start doing something almost every week that makes me feel really uncomfortable or something that scares me a little bit I'm going to get in the lift I'm going to not cut the chicken in half and like examine it under my phone like that it's pink and I'm going to get salmonella I just like all the things I just silly little things and to be honest confidence linked into that because it was like my world I need to knock the walls down and I used to you know turn down any modeling jobs where I'd be going to a country where I didn't speak the language and I was like right no I'm taking that job in Poland right now I'm the only English-speaking girl and I don't really know what it is and probably putting my personal safety not recommending sometimes a little bit of risk because I was like I need to get myself uncomfortable and actually once you start forcing yourself to do little things that confidence grows because you get that little kick out of it you get that little dopamine rush and it becomes kind of addictive and it's that's all I would say I think if you're feeling scared unconfident kind of trapped in like a very reality of your own making just start breaking things down you know don't know take a dance class go on a trip on your own do something that scares you and then you get a little buzz out of it and then you just keep building on it and that would be it love island then literally my mum and sister had to basically drag me to the airport because i was going to get cold feet again they're like my best friend since primary school she's like this is what you always do you get scared because i got scared in series two and i ran away i was so surprised oh you were meant to do series two series two ready to go two weeks before called them no i didn't even call them block them wow ghosted itv on everything then when i called us when i contacted series so they're like hello i was like hello um but again i watched it at home series two and i was like that looks amazing why didn't i do it that could have been so cool but again i got i let the cold feet get the better of me and like ultimately it was that one thing that changed my life it might not have been but if I hadn't done it and never would have known.

48:20I'm not saying like run out and apply for reality TV shows. There's other avenues to explore, but just do that thing that feels a bit scary and it makes you feel good. It's so cool to hear it because I think we all assume there are confident people and unconfident people. And actually I think some people might naturally have a bit more confidence, but I certainly believe throughout my whole career that it's practiced. You get better at putting yourself out there and trying something new. and it's really lovely to know that it can be a habit rather than, well, I'm just not a confident person. It's something that we can cultivate and get better at.

48:55I literally believe it because I'm living proof that you don't have to be the confident showbiz kid to be a confident person. Me and my sister, she was the one, she's younger than me, like at playgroup, she'd literally push me to the floor to do show and tell and I was like, that's fine because I'd literally feel like my skin's on fire and people look at me. and now I do this for a job so and it makes me really happy but I only got to experience how happy it makes me when I force myself to get uncomfortable for a little bit it's a really good thing to hear and I think it's a good reminder for all of us that you know we we have much more autonomy over that than we believe yeah we can try new things we can put ourselves in situations that feel a bit scary and bring new opportunities in it's it's a really really cool thing to hear I've loved talking to you I love the subjects that we've covered and I want to say all the love and luck for your new TV show and thank you so much for coming to the Happy Place Festival give it up for Olivia Atwood thanks babe

50:04I love that Olivia do you know what I love about Olivia is that she's just bloody honest there's no beating around the bush there's no hiding the facts she just says it as it is and that to me is just massively refreshing. You can watch Olivia's ITV2 show Bad Boyfriends now and she has a brilliant podcast called So Wrong It's Right. So definitely check that out if you are a podcast fan, which I reckon you are. Also, we obviously talked a lot about beauty standards and a few months ago, we actually put together an episode that compiled a load of our Happy Place guests' thoughts on body image and the pressures we're all under to look a certain way.

50:40So if you want more of that kind of chat, there'll be a link in the show notes so you can listen to that one as well it's very good all right massive thanks again to Olivia to the producer Anushka Tate we love you at Happy Play Studios and of course you for just being the absolute best

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