Olly Alexander: “I couldn’t accept my identity” Queer joy and mental distress co-exist

0:00Before we start, this episode contains chat you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes for more details if you need. hello and a massive welcome to happy place with me fern cotton this is the show that grapples with fundamental questions about identity today i'm chatting to ollie alexander people in the queer community we've kind of inherited some some issues right around being able to live our lives the way we want to i mean that's pretty obvious right and that can manifest in these quite complex and variable mental health problems it happened to me you know it wasn't just because i was gay but I knew that because I was gay that was affecting the way that I you know had all these high levels of shame I just couldn't accept my identity.

0:44How are you lovely lot I hope you're okay now this is weird because I'm recording this little intro a bit ahead of time but I know by the time this episode comes out I will have had to have an operation and I'm hoping that I've mentioned that on Instagram already because I certainly plan to because I don't beat around the bush or pretend that anything's happening other than my actual life. So I found a benign tumour, well I found a little lump and it's a benign tumour just below my ear, on my jaw, with a little one above it. So the beginning of December means an operation and then rest, which for me is, like for many of you, an alien concept.

1:20I can't quite imagine how I'm going to rest or how that's going to feel but I'm hopefully going to be right now watching Wolf Hall because that is my plan and loads of other good TV and hopefully seeing some friends. So I'll be doing a bit of resting. That's why I had to scramble and get all my Christmas prep done in November, quite frankly. So if you are going through something similar or you are out for injury or whatever, we're in this together. I'm going to hopefully be under a blanket. I hope you are too, if you're listening to this during some sort of recovery. And hopefully I'll be back at it very, very soon, but there'll be no break in the podcast.

1:56We've been extremely organised and we've got episodes for days. So don't worry about that. But that's where I'm, I will be at. You know, I can't quite imagine it at this point in time. I guess it all feels a bit abstract and a bit too surreal to feel anything about it. What I will say is if you feel a little lump or bump, always go get it checked. I'm glad I did because you never know how these things are going to turn out. And I feel very grateful it's benign, but if you leave these things that might not be the case so maybe that's a little nudge for you if you do feel like something's a bit off to go and get a little check and I wish you all very well.

2:31So today then Oli Alexander, now you'll obviously know him from the utterly incredible music he makes with years and years but now he's gone solo. He's releasing his first solo album, well the first album under his name in February, it's called Polari which takes its inspiration from the almost lost art of Polari and Ollie is going to explain exactly what that means so eloquently in a moment. Oh we talk about some really lovely things in this. First of all I had to explain to him why I was wearing joggers. I was wearing joggers because I was having one of those days where I couldn't get my shit together.

3:06I'd bought this really lovely outfit with these new blue shoes I love that are sort of velvet high heels. I don't know what it was I had this real block of I can't get out of my joggers I need to stay comfortable today. So lovely producer Anushka went, well, just stay comfortable. You don't have to put a silly outfit on. Just wear your bloody joggers. They were a bit grubby. Okay. They had something on them, like a bit of food. But Ollie didn't mind and had a cozy jumper. I just, it was a cozy day. I needed coziness and Ollie was wearing a cozy jumper. So I felt all right about it. We talk about the history of gay culture, which was fascinating.

3:40So interesting. We talk about shame around identity and we talk about poor mental health. One thing that we do touch on, and this is probably a bit of a warning if any of you have experienced this or this is a triggering topic for you, we do talk about bulimia, which Ollie and I both have experience in. So I found that greatly comforting, actually, really comforting. Also, I will absolutely not apologise for how much we talked about cats at the start of this. If you don't like cats, tough shit. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

4:17And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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6:16Just a quick one before we get to the show. I can't believe I'm saying this already, but guys, have you got any summer plans yet? Well, you have now because early bird tickets for our Happy Place Festival 2025 are going to be available in early 2025. So that's very, very soon. And I could not be more excited about all of the live podcasts and the meditations we're going to be doing and the shopping and the sober dancing with the brilliant DJ. So come and join us. We'd love to see you there. If you want to come along, head to happyplacefestival.com to sign up to be the first to know when early bird tickets are available.

6:52Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

7:16Hi, Ollie. Hi, Fern. I have to be really honest. I bought with me a really zhuzhy outfit with these blue shoes, blue sequin trousers. And I got here. You know those days where I just thought, I haven't got it in me to put that on? So I'm in tracksuit bottoms. I'm really apologetic. But I didn't have it in me. I don't know why. No, but you look lovely. You look relaxed. Maybe it would have been too much if you'd been wearing the fancy outfit. It felt too much. I felt a bit intimidated. Yeah, well, I don't want to intimidate you. I'm just in a jumper. I love your jumper. Thank you. And you're in a nice jumper.

7:48I reckon we could talk about jumpers or cats for about an hour and that would be the episode how are your cats they're really well thank you so much for asking I was actually just saying on the way here like people might lots of my friends talk about their young children you know and I'm like hey I can relate my cats do this they keep me up all night they wake me up early they're always getting into little fights why are cats so great they really are the best I grew up with cats and ever since I've moved to London I've been waiting until I could get my own cats and And then two years, well, a year and a half ago, I got my two cats.

8:19And I just can't believe, it feels like I've had them forever. You can't imagine life without them. I absolutely can't. And it really is their house, their rules. My routine is based around the cat. That's why I love cats, because there's no fucking about. They're like, this is what you're going to do for me. And you're going to do it now. And your world revolves around what I want. Totally. And it's very different to it. I mean, I love dogs as well. I've never actually had a dog, but I feel like a dog, you know, the owner is the god. Do you know what I mean? But cats, they're their own gods. they do whatever they want but also dogs are more hard work you've got to go on a walk you've got to like take them out for a poo cats just go I'm just going to go in the garden and shit in the bush is that cool and you go yeah bye cats are so good what are your cats called Fanta and Sprite Fanta and Sprite yeah I've got Simon and Frank that's so cute do you have lots of names for them um Si is just like Si is just like Si is like it's more it's more the voice I do a stupid voice when I'm talking to them yeah I talk to them like they're idiots but I'm the idiot no I completely I do the same thing I'm like, what are you such a cute little cat?

9:17Yeah, fwink. I call Frank, fwink, fwink. And he's sat there going, what are you doing? It's a good thing cats can't talk because they tell us what idiots we are. They'd go, you absolute dick. Leave me alone. You embarrass me so much. I embarrass me so much. But we've decided cats are better than humans and that is the law. Well, a cat, I mean, it's such a beautiful relationship with a cat. They never argue with you. They never, you know, they just love you. It's so sweet. It's the best feeling. I'm so happy for you having your cats. Oh, thank you. And I'm also happy for you because you have got your first album under your name out very soon indeed called Polari.

9:50Yes. Now, I was really interested to learn about the word Polari. You educated me greatly. I was scrolling through the text that you wrote on Instagram describing the meaning behind the word and the history behind the words. Tell us a bit about that. Yeah. Oh, well, so Polari is the name of a kind of slang that was spoken in Britain. It actually has roots that goes really, really far back. 18th 19th century and it's a slang that's made up of all these different kinds of languages and dialects so it's got romani it's got cockney rhyming slang it's got italian words german words words that are just flipped back to front and um it was called polari and it was spoken by all these different kind of marginalized groups and it was kind of spoken in the theater in circus among circus performers people who were on ships kind of quite like um communities that often moved around a lot so that's why you got this different influence all these different languages and then it was adopted by gay men as a way for gay men to kind of communicate with each other openly but in secret so they could talk about you know a guy they fancied or what they might be up to later that night um without fear of being arrested because you know being gay was criminalized at time so it has and so that's a very potted tiny little explanation no it's so cool but it's really really fascinating and and um it's had such an interesting journey over the decades really and centuries because even by the 1960s it had really fallen out of fashion and it wasn't really spoken anymore but it was kind of there were drag queens like Edna Everidge who started to use it and became part of their kind of act and it's really synonymous with that sort of UK drag culture Polari like very working class like it's just got such a rich and fascinating history and I was so inspired by by all of that really what it feels like to be gay and come from that sort of history but also what it means to speak a secret language and to kind of have a code between you and the people around you and as an artist I feel like I do that with songs and then as a community, being in a gay community you do that all the time, you do that with your friends so it was very inspiring to me I went down such a rabbit hole, I ended up watching videos of people speaking in different dialogue it was so so cool, I just loved learning about it and on your Instagram you said actually previously you hadn't really looked into gay history It hadn't been something that had really pulled you to sort of go and do that research.

12:05But maybe your role in It's a Sin was something that ignited that, it being a period piece, essentially. 100%. I know, so crazy that it's a period piece. It's very depressed, but it is a period piece. I know. Yeah, it is. And no, absolutely. Like doing that show just really allowed me to kind of go into this part of my life and my history that I'd always been a bit scared to go towards in a way. and yeah I mean just the experience was so incredible in so many ways but I'm so happy that allowed me to grapple with my own identity and how it kind of fits in the world and where it's come from and you know it really was like oh these pieces kind of coming together for me like learning about all that history it really helped me understand myself yeah and that show I mean I can't imagine what it was like to be part of it was so beautifully received everybody was just raving about it when it first came out and it's it was just so well loved and And obviously it being set in that era throughout the HIV AIDS epidemic, there's many people.

13:03I mean, I've got friends who live through that era and remember it extremely painfully and well. And I can only imagine the feedback that you got from people who remember that time and losing friends and losing family members. I imagine you got so much feedback from people. Yes, I think it just resonated so deeply with people in loads of different ways. and the people that were there, I think what was so cool to hear in their response was that we, they were like, that was what it was like, you captured it really well, this kind of real blend of joy and fun and then extreme fear and stigma and silence and things happening and being pushed under the carpet and not knowing what was going on.

13:42Because a lot of people that lived through that time, they didn't even know what was happening necessarily, unless you had friends who were in those communities it was all very pushed under the carpet and I think what Russell did it's so amazing and everyone that made it's a sin was allowed those stories to kind of come out into the open and for people to share what happened to them and what that made them feel and I think there's like real healing that can happen when when you do get to discuss something like that so that was amazing you know people still come up to me all the time and say wow it's a sin was was amazing and it's so cool to to be part of that yeah and also that era you know it really ramped up homophobia because people were sort of conflating being gay with having aids and it was just such a toxic time for people to be living through that I mean yeah we do see now today a lot more queer joy and tv shows like it's a sin and people living more freely you know I'm probably looking at maybe people that i know and maybe it's a niche group on instagram but obviously homophobia still hugely exists i wonder is it any better really like we're getting more balanced because we're we're seeing as i said so much more queer joy but it's still there living alongside it yeah i honestly i think about this a lot you know because you know doing like doing it's a sin we this kind of direct comparison you know to go here was what happened in the 80s and look how far we've come now and there are all these material changes material progresses that we've made in terms of like medical care in terms of acceptance in terms of rights and you know legislation and you can really tick those off but of course like there's this flip side to i think you know the progress of what's it they say like history doesn't move in that linear trajectory because it feels like there are wins and losses all the time and and I think the world gets more and more fractured and we we're all feeling like we live in a more divisive time than ever so I think an identity has become such a huge part of our cultural conversation and about the way we see each other the way we communicate it's like what's your identity and I think so I guess the problems and issues kind of develop as as as even though you make these great changes and gains and it also really depends on who you are because everyone's living in these different environments and different circumstances you know like so and we have all this information coming at us all the time you know we're able to hear stories and hear voices from all around the world queer people are everywhere you know i mean so so that's great but then you you see how much they're still left how much pain and misery and the the awful circumstances that so many people are still in so it's like there's real dissonance to just living that experience does that make sense i don't know of course well it's also the the fact that people still have to come out.

16:33It's still this moment of - I know. You have to reveal yourself to people in a way that is taken for granted otherwise. So there is still, there's so much progress to be had. I know. So much progress to be had. One thing I just thought was so brilliant was your documentary that you made about - Thank you. The connection between growing up being gay and mental health problems. And it was a confronting topic and something you've obviously got direct, first-hand experience of what what did you learn about yourself i guess through through that process oh my gosh so much i um yeah i i kind of suspected that because i just like anecdotally amongst friends and stuff i felt like people in the queer community we'd kind of it's we'd kind of inherited some some issues right around being able to live our lives the way we want to I mean that's pretty obvious right and that can manifest in these quite complex and variable mental health problems it happened to me you know it's not and the reason that you know because I was growing when I was growing up and a bit younger than I am now I definitely had a whole kind of tranche of mental health issues I struggled with and it wasn't just because I was gay but I knew that because I was gay that was affecting the way that I you know had all these high levels of shame I didn't know how to deal with I just couldn't accept my identity so I suspected that was similar to like other people going through similar experiences and maybe that sounds obvious but I just wanted to find out what other people's experiences were and I was I guess not shocked but taken aback by the levels of kind of mental health problems are just so prevalent amongst the community and the doing the documentary was really trying to explore that link like why are there higher levels of mental distress amongst the queer community and like there are loads of reasons why like let's try and get into that and every individual case is going to be different and I think as well like that documentary was 2016 2017 and there was a real rise and kind of talking about mental health in the public space and kind of people in the in the public eye really bringing it up in conversation and I think it was kind of part of that which was really great to get to get on to but I almost feel like well where do we go now because we can't you know I don't know like what happens next it is kind of like my question I don't know Same.

18:54We're, you know, people are really suffering and struggling and, and there's all sorts of systemic issues and things that, you know, none of us can necessarily fix overnight. We can keep talking and we can, I think, you know, that's why I loved your documentary. I love that you're very open about talking about your mental health, because I do think it's not going to solve issues, but I do think I'm very open about my own. And you do hope that someone out there feeling really lonely in it and isolated can think oh christ okay other people out there who are seemingly doing things they love are really struggling or have really struggled and have maybe moved through it you've been very honest about depression anxiety bulimia self-harm if we're playing some sort of mental health bingo i've had three out of four of those um and you know fucking awful like really tough shit to get through what came first for you can you even pinpoint it because I think when I look back at my own mental health and try and chart, what was I feeling first?

19:53What came first? For me, I thought it was the bulimia because it was such a visual kind of expression of how I was feeling. But maybe there was something before that. I don't know. What about you? So when you were just saying that just then, I thought of, I was really into, I'm going to take a bit of weird direction here. We like weird. I was really into gymnastics when I was like 10 years old. 9, 10, 11, I went to like a youth gymnastics thing in the Forest of Dean. And I loved it because I was getting to use my body. And it was a little bit like dance, but it wasn't kind. And I wanted to do dance, but I was a bit scared to kind of go that far.

20:31And I got quite obsessed with doing this gymnastics. They wanted me to go like three times a week, then like every night a week. They were like really, they were trying to train people to like go compete at high level. Oh my God, you could have been in the Olympics. I know, I know. There's still time. that's literally that's my secret thing where I still think I secretly could go and do gymnastics come on no no okay you know who can though Benson Boone did you know that what do a backflip yeah oh he's quite incredible learned something new today um anyway sorry what am I saying anyway so and then I started going to gymnastics and I don't know what happened but something started to go funny with my eating and actually sorry at the same time my parents were separating and I think you're kind of getting into that at your body's developing puberty I'm starting to have an awareness of my identity that I didn't previously like going to secondary school and all of that so it's all happening at the same time and I remember I like started to really restrict my diet and I just couldn't do my gymnastics training anymore I was too I was like you know too weak to go or just that didn't really leave me for like 10 years basically um throughout school and I felt like it kind of you know I stopped the gymnastics and you know I was at school and that was fine that I was kind of bullied quite a bit in my primary school and then picked on again a bit in secondary school and I was trying to figure out my sexuality and then I started self-harming when I was like 14 15 and the bulimia started around then as well and I think yeah I just it was all this kind of cauldron of kind of like who am I like I'm not right I'm not good there's something wrong with me like and trying to find these ways to get at that whatever that was and well you're trying to cope aren't you you're trying to find a way to just cope with what's going on in your head and yeah you know i can only speak personally but i think i didn't necessarily restrict my food beforehand maybe but with the bulimia there was an element of i needed some control yeah but you know ironically you're sort of completely out of control because you haven't got a hold on it at all but i felt like it was some sort of moment of control and also something that was just mine There was something sort of secretive that I quite liked about it.

22:34And I don't know what that's about. Can you look back and make sense? I don't know if you can make sense of it, but can you kind of try and work out, oh, why was I doing that? What was the feeling that I was getting from it? Or what was I trying to gain from? Or I don't know what the language is. I'm just only talking from my own point of view because I definitely know it was something about control, even though that's a bit blurry even. but I understand I really relate to that because I think that's definitely part of it for me as well especially when things feel so chaotic and out of your control what's something you can control it's it's your body you think in your mind anyway you think that and I was very much kind of at war with my body I didn't like my body I didn't like the way it looks I didn't like that I was skinny that people and that was sort of like a strange thing as well because I was restricting my diet and I was making me skinnier and I think there's this it's an act of punishment but it's also an act of like trying to survive like coping so it's this very you kind of trap yourself in this very conflicted just spiral with your own body and the way you treat it and you know you're we we hope that we can love and tend and care for our bodies you know so it feels so wrong that if you don't do that it feels I had a lot of guilt around it and similarly I didn't tell anyone I kept it as secret same tip as I could for as long as I could because I just felt so ashamed about it and I didn't want to talk about it I didn't I didn't want people to worry and I was like oh well I'll get over at some point and and it just got really bad and for me it just got to a point where I I like got some health problems like a regular heartbeat and I had to go to hospital and I was like this isn't my I was living with my mum and she was so distressed by what's happening she didn't really know very much and but she found out and I couldn't hide it from anymore and it just like really I was like okay this has to this has to stop and I didn't stop for a while but that was definitely a turning point as well yeah I mean I had such a similar situation my mum sort of somehow worked out what was going on yeah and I'd moved out because mine went on for about 10 years and she moved I'd moved out and she came to my house and door stopped me and I was mortified just devastated because I thought I don't want to stop doing this, like don't out me, I don't want you to know about this but I think like you it was a real turning point it didn't stop but it was a moment of oh shit this is real, this isn't some little fantasy in my head that I've created this little world this is actually a real thing and it's going to have health implications and yada yada and it is a really tricky one to get out the cycle to then heal but then also to like your body I know.

25:18Where are you at with that? Oh my gosh it's um I feel like I'm in a good place like I actually think I love it. Good! Like not all the time you know but sometimes I really do and there was a big shift in me about yeah maybe five or six years maybe a bit longer when I started going I started exercising again but in a way that wasn't sort of like I must have my body in this shape I just just sort of kind of casually fell into it and it started to make me feel really good and I realized my body I want it to be able to do things I want it I want it to like last a long time and just get me through the day I don't want to feel you know especially when you're touring and stuff when you're doing things I'm sure I like anybody like you need to nourish your body it's really simple but I can't believe how how difficult it can be to just three meals a day look after yourself that can just be so tough why is it so hard it's crazy it sounds so simple and it's really hard um but like now i feel like i look after myself better than i ever have and i like what my body can do you know it gets me around a to b i'm so thankful um so i have that kind of relationship now of course i get sometimes in these spirals where i go i wish i looked different or this was different but it's just kind of i i sort of like watch it happen away from me now instead of kind of being like that's such an important thing when you have that step back and you're slightly detached and you can you're an observer of the behavior all the thoughts yeah such a big game changer so what how did you heal what was it therapy what was your how did it tell us what happened I know um well I guess yeah so it's like so many combination of so many things I mean, I still, yes, therapy for sure.

27:06I have had like so much therapy. And I guess time and like getting older has helped, obviously. I had to really, have you seen Inside Out? Of course. Of course. I love Inside Out. It's so good. I met the guy that created it not long ago. Oh, no way, really. He's amazing. Oh, wow. I love that movie so much. I love it. It's so good. And I watched the second one recently. So good. I was just like, it felt like massaging my brain. So I was like, finally, I see a visual representation of what's going on inside there. Maybe we don't need therapy. Maybe we just need to watch Inside Out every day. Exactly, on a loop.

27:38But where she has that thing, like her core, there's that moment in that second movie. And I know it's for kids or whatever, but like I was like, it's for everyone. And she has that core belief about her and it switches from like, you know, I'm good or whatever. I'm not good enough. And I was like, oh, I know what that's like. I've had that for a long time. You know, I mean, it's this constant kind of tug of war. And that comes from a lot of different places. You know, like I felt very to blame for my parents separating and for health issues that were happening in my family. Like I really felt like, oh, if I can just become this exceptional, amazing performer and really like lift my and like get my mum a house, help my brother out, do X, Y and Z, fix everything, then I'll be good.

28:22You know? so I was just really stuck in that for for a long long time and um I I'm lucky that I had a lot of help and support you know like I had a really good therapist like right right before I got signed to a major label I like found this really good therapist and that's the right way around I know not post being a pop star before you're a pop star yeah and I'd had some before help before that as well and I think because you know I was lucky that I could have access to that I mean I moved to london when i was 18 because i i did an acting job and i had enough money that i could just like rent for a while so i was spending a bit of money every now and then on like a therapist but i didn't really have enough to like just keep doing it wasn't until i like started to make money where i could actually pay a therapist every week you know i mean i'm like that's just the unfortunate nature of like being able to access what everyone should be able to access um and so i don't know so i was just kind of trying to like work at you know and like i was and like when i was living in london i was kind of jobbing actor i was trying to make it with years and years i just couldn't like i needed my body to work i needed it to like and i was just not treating it well i was pieing all the time at the weekends i just wasn't in a good place and i actually remember a moment as well where i i i was totally sober but i i fell over i tripped and i knocked my head and i got concussion don't know if you ever had concussion it's awful it really really spun me out for for for actually for months afterwards yeah i just thought there was something on my brain that my brain was bleeding and so I was I was actually in and out of A &E going to A &E all the time going I'm dying like I'm having a panic attack obviously there were panic attacks but I was convinced I was dying and this concussion had altered me somehow anyway it was and there were all these things happening and then years and years kind of start to take off and I just I think I just managed to kind of align myself in a slightly better place to take on what was going to come next and so I wasn't you know I was in a better place for my diet I wasn't self-harming and And also I take antidepressants, you know, and I have done for like 15 years.

30:21I still take it. I mean, I'm on actually a very, very low dose now. My doctor was even like, it's probably a placebo. That's good to know. That's not doing anything. Great. Just a little tic-tac. So that was a really long answer. But I guess it's just like, I don't know when it started to happen. Well, there isn't always a moment. No. It's an incremental combination of all sorts of factors and things. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about.

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32:48I'm wondering, so, you know, obviously I was at Radio 1 when Years and Years came out. And it was just a huge big deal. And you're all of a sudden these international superstars. And the schedule you're working to is outrageous. At this point, when you've kind of, you've done the dream. You're a big superstar. You're very successful. You can buy your mum the house, whatever. Did you feel enough then? No. No. So annoying. So annoying. It doesn't work like that. I know. And we forget. We think it's going to work and it doesn't. Yeah. And I was quite shocked that it wasn't changing me. And then embarrassed that I had held on to this belief for so long that becoming successful and famous or whatever would make me a different person or something.

33:33Because I didn't think that that was what I was expecting. but I thought something would happen there would be some transformation that I would feel different but um but sometimes the opposite happened with the kind of the gulf between who you feel that you've become put on this elevated place and who you feel like you really are inside it starts to widen and widen and widen you just think oh no this is it can feel like a bit of a nightmare no I mean that sounds really dramatic so I didn't know I know what you mean I did you know yeah it's not like it was always like that but but but um and i was only 24 25 which seems so young to me now and it is young it is young it's young to be dealing with that bombardment of outside opinion yeah and praise i think that can be really tricky that we assume it's going to make us feel great but like you just said it can completely throw you and you think am i worthy of this praise am i actually who are who they think i am do they like the real me there's so many things that come with that success but I think the most important thing and weirdly I did a talk this morning and it was along these these lines of we assume that when we get the job or the partner or we are the shiny pop star whatever the thing is that you think's going to fix you you get there and then you go oh shit I've brought myself along like I'm still me I thought I was going to be the new person and I'm still me why hasn't this worked and we all believe it and we I get it.

34:58Even in like tiny, tiny ways, like when we're on holiday or something and we think we're going to then be changed for life. And until you sort your shit out, you're still going to bring your old self along. And it's a really tricky one to square with and go, oh, okay, I can still be ambitious. I can still have drive, but I know I'm going to be the same person. And, you know, even sorting your shit out, you're still you, but you maybe can cope better and you can deal with your lot. Yes. It's a tricky one. It is. Where's your anxiety at today? How's that going? My anxiety was actually middling today.

35:34Okay. In what way? I don't know, because I was kind of nervous to come and speak to you, if I'm honest. I'm like the least scary person ever. I know, and you literally are. But it's because I think just speak, even though I've spoken like really openly about all my experiences, it still always feels like even sometimes now I feel like it feels it just feels so hard still yeah and I listened to actually Perry's episode and I was really moved by how just honest she was and and she's so smart and but and like she was just everything she was saying I really related to it and um I think that it's like oh gosh having to go to that vulnerable place isn't always it's not always easy and I feel like for me as well this year I've been really trying to like just really be like okay try and get to grips with I don't know like how I feel about myself as an artist and you know because I have so much anxiety about like so many things about being an artist and it really I feel like it really kind of kills the joy and I'm really trying to like both so I'll find myself trying to just put that and compartmentalise it and ignore it.

36:49But then it bubbles back up and you're like, oh no, I have to deal with this. So you're always sort of in that tussle a bit. Yeah. And yeah, but my, so, sorry, that was a long answer. No, I get it. Look, it's complicated. And that's the whole point of these conversations is none of this stuff with mental health is linear. You know, you have good days and then you have bad days. I'm going through a period right now where I haven't weirdly had any anxiety and it's kind of freaking me out. You know, I was totally... Anxiety about not having the anxiety. Yeah, I know. What an absolute lunatic. I was so plagued by panic attacks.

37:20I thought, oh, this is me for life, blah, blah. I've actually luckily found a bloody good therapist and it's changed so much for me. But the panic attacks aren't there. And I can't put my finger on why. Some of it, I think, is something to do with what you're talking about, which is feeling you can do your job well. You can be an artist, in your case. yet you can still have unsolved mysteries of mental health and you can still I now turn up to work like I have today going for some reason I can't put a nice outfit on I'm really blocked I can't put the fucking high heels on and I don't know why I can't do it today I know I can do the job but there's that bit where you go no I meant to turn up all shiny and look professional and blah blah but I'm sort of all right with living in the mess of it all a bit now yeah and I'm and I'm really finding comfort in that that things can be really fucking messy actually and it can all still function and be all right so I think the worst thing any of us can do is talk about this stuff openly and go yeah it's all in the past I'm fixed I'm everything's perfect now and then everyone at home's going yeah but how do I get there I want to get there and you can still overcome hurdles whatever but it's not linear it's and it's it never will be it's really not and I think you're so right you have to kind of why what helps me is to just acknowledge that everything's like a fucking paradox like everything is just like kind of contains this like opposing yep conflicting feelings you know it's like I want to be here I don't want to be here I'm good enough I'm not good enough you know yes I I think that is just that's us unfortunately and especially if you do something which brings you into contact with like you know other people which is most of us right but I'm just thinking as an artist as a performer or as where you you're kind of we're all in this feedback right this almost feedback loop with social media with how we're perceived and it's just very kind of um that's going to trigger anxiety in anybody of course no matter who you are so I think can help to acknowledge that it's just a lot sometimes it's a lot and I'm wondering you know I've obviously been lucky enough to interview so many people that their job is being on a stage whether it's acting or singing or whatever do you have moments where you're so in your flow on stage that there is just no anxiety you are just literally in it yes yeah i do yeah i know which is why i love it so much is that a bit of a safe space for you then do you think yeah yes but i don't always get there like i don't always have that and sometimes i like feel like it gets completely like knocked off its perch i'm like but when it all feels like it's working and i can get there like in the studio making music you just feel connected to something that's outside of your body and but performing is always so amazing when you feel in that moment because you're just connected with the audience you're just there on stage with the band music it's all just you know and I love that feeling it really is quite transcendental you know but it's also very boundaried because you're on stage you're singing a song that has a beginning middle and end you're here some of the audience is there you know it's a show it's there are those kind of easy to understand rules and then outside of that it's um just like chaos yeah it is yeah but yeah on that stage but then I don't know I don't like always have that like sometimes and that's when I feel really sad like if I'm on stage because I'm like this is what I love but if I'm there and it's not working and I feel just oh my god I'm singing badly or the audience aren't on my side or this is going to sound terrible on television like i just oh it's the pit i hate it well it's do it's when your mind gets in the way of doing something you love it's so awful you know i had it with doing live telly you know i don't want to do live telly i might in the future but i haven't done it for years because my anxiety is so bad in that setting i don't feel safe yeah i feel really safe now and i can literally say anything i'm wearing a fucking tracksuit but on tv i don't feel safe i feel like i've infiltrated someone else's front room and I've got to be perfect and that makes me just lose the plot and it's so awful when you think I can do this really easily but my mind's stopping me from doing it it's so horrible it's so frustrating I really thought that like all the way through when I was doing Eurovision because Eurovision was I can't imagine how many millions of people watched in the end what was the figures I don't know I think it's like over 150 million it's just ridiculous and I just go to myself like I I can do this I can do that I'm a singer like I do this all the time but but when it came to doing the performances just and also it was so kind of concentrated on this one song it was all you're doing is performing a song and I also felt like things would just kept going wrong like I was kind of cursed or something like the audio would cut out my mic pack would fall off or just something would go wrong and I was just getting this extreme anxiety about performing this song and it's like okay well you've got to go out and do it literally in front of 150 million people so you better get it together Oli I feel anxious thinking about it I know I know it was it was quite yeah it was I I mean, I'm really proud of what I did.

42:23Like, in the end, I was so... I loved it. I think it was great. But it was tough. The pressure is immense. And there's no margin for error these days. You know, people are sort of much less forgiving if things are a bit wonky or something doesn't happen as it's meant to. There's just... I hate that. I hate that. We're so used to perfection as well, like hearing and seeing it. Because everything can be tweaked and altered and made perfect. I'm trying to go against the grain with that one. Like, this morning I did a podcast on Zoom and I called the guest Leanne and she's called Leanne. And normally I think I would have really beat myself up about that.

42:57I'd done a very like comprehensive bit of research as well, but I just didn't hear anyone say a name out loud. And then I thought, who cares? I'm a human. Like I'm a robot. And I really let myself off the hook and it's down to us, isn't it? Like we let ourselves off the hook. It's not what everyone else is saying. This is the thing. And this is like, we place these expectations on ourselves all the time and they can come from other people. Like, you know, you feel this burden to perform and say and do a certain thing, but it's a lot of those expectations come from ourselves, you know? It's like, well, I need to just give myself a break here.

43:28And like you say, most of this stuff, it doesn't matter, really. It doesn't. It just doesn't matter. Yeah. You know, a really dark thought I have. Go on. Which is like, if something goes a bit wrong, I think I'll be dead in a hundred years. Literally, exactly. No one will give a shit. And that's so bleak, but I just think no one will care. but we put so much pressure on what's everyone going to say what's everyone going to think that's also why it can feel so maddening at the time because this is how I felt during Eurovision I'm like this is a song contest it's about songs we're all just here singing singing our little songs but it feels so far from that and it's just it's like war it's just like this is so strange that it's that it happens this way but it does so what are you feeling about this new album with everything we've just discussed this is it's a big deal for you it's your first album under your name you know you you want that to go but you're proud of it you want people to receive it in the way that you've produced it what did you what did you want to say on it well this album i guess like yeah it's a big deal for me to be doing this under my own name because i didn't really think i would until relatively recently when i was like no it's time to do this and it's a really an album it's like a love letter to being gay really i mean and it's also about love because i'm very in love with my partner and we actually got back together like and so a lot of the songs are kind of about like finding love and you know love it I um was also really inspired by what it means to be gay be a gay artist and kind of speak across decades you know to like your to the people that came before me and inspired me you know all those artists and people and everything so that's kind of what I was trying to do with Polari to try and channel all of that and it's just sort of funny timing really to be an artist putting out music like the industry is completely wild it's just and um the the kind of the rules and the infrastructure that have been in place for the last kind of 10 or 20 years it's completely gone it's all different and that's really exciting but it's also kind of scary and especially if you know I've been on a major label for 10 years I'm actually on my last album now I have this feeling of actually like excitement and liberation because i'm about to sort of i also feel a bit like the label of because dizzy with eurovision i like really begged them to like give me the budgets and the money to do all of that and it didn't really make a huge return for them let's be honest so they've kind of washed i feel a bit like they've washed the hands of me a bit and they're like okay we'll just do what you want it's your last album it's fine but that's actually been such a good thing for me because it just means i can just do what i want just be you and just be me and put it out there and i actually you know of course I want it to do well and I would love it to be received well but I am just so grateful that I'm getting to do it in the way that I want to do it and and let go of the kind of any expectations of how it's going to perform commercially or I didn't do it for that you know what I mean I really did it you can't you just can't you have to do it because you love it yeah it's the only thing you can do it for is the joy of the process it really is and a lot of stuff can get in the way it can make you go I don't like this anymore or like you know people don't like it so I don't want to do it like people are mean and I definitely get in my head about that like my god people are gonna just tear me apart and tear me down and they do but it doesn't feel so bad and also I'm not doing it for them you know I'm doing it for me like literally I don't there's no one else that's the best thing ever yeah and that's probably because you're in a really good place of liking yourself i think so i've definitely had that switch of like i don't want to do all this stuff so other people like me anymore what do i want to do what do i want to say some people might not like it tough shit yeah life's too short isn't it it's too short it's really freeing yeah how exciting so yeah so that's that's good i'm kind of yeah so i feel good about it i feel like um it's such a crazy i mean it sounds so stupid but it really is such a crazy world and I feel lucky like really lucky to be doing what I'm doing still you know like because I do love I love it so we'll see well it shines through everything you do I love watching you perform I just think you're the best and you've just got such beautiful charisma on stage and I'm so excited to see what you do next thank you the new iteration of the liberated Oli yeah It's exciting.

47:58That's nice. I've loved talking to you today, Ollie. Good luck with everything. Thank you, Fern. You're so sweet. And thank you for being such a caring and light, like a person of light. You know what I mean? And I feel like you're very, and you always have been, ever since I've known you, like really caring. And I remember you sent me some really cute, happy place, like kind of like a notebook and everything. Ages ago, I loved it. I love a little gift. Yeah, it was so good. Oh, thanks, Ollie. So thank you for having me. Lots of love. Yeah. Oh, Ollie. Oh, Ollie. Do you know what? I felt so full of love when he was talking about how he was nervous about opening up and being vulnerable and how it's draining doing stuff like that, talking about your problems in front of loads of people.

48:41I really appreciate Ollie for doing that. It's not easy. And I just thought it was a lovely episode and I really want to be his best friend. I don't know how to go about it. I mean, I'm kind of saying it here and putting it out there. I don't know if he's going to listen to this, but I sort of feel like we could be really, really good best mates and we could like just chat about cats and wear woolly jumpers and he could maybe sing to me. It's just an idea. It's just a thought. Ollie's solo album, Polari, is out in February. In what ways do you feel like your identity and sense of self are connected to your mental health?

49:15I wonder. Let's chat about it on Instagram. Let me know at happy place official. by the way that episode that i mentioned that i've recorded with leanne who's actually called bloody leanne um i was talking about leanne moriarty the absolutely amazing author her book here one moment was our november book club pick so you can actually listen to that episode if you want it was really nice i love that chat all right i'm back here next week of course hi this is nox from the podcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors and zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

49:54Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. What does it mean to move at the speed of AI? It means thinking big and moving fast. It means running like a 10-person team, even if it's just you. With Wix, it's possible. Create a website that's as unique as your business. Launch a new campaign or test new ways to make more money without slowing down.

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51:15And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast? Wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. My time with you is the highlight of my sodding week. But in the meantime, a massive thanks again to Oli, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios, and to you, I love you.

52:10Thank you.