Paloma Faith: Outspoken women, fertility, and MILFs

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that critiques the social constructs were expected to follow. Today I'm chatting to Paloma Faith. We were sort of sold this dream of like the feminist dream you can have it all and the reality is you can't have it all and you're sort of around like a heteronormative guy who thinks that just contributing to finances is as much as what you're doing and it isn't because knowing what it's like to contribute to all the finances in my case and also the silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent is overwhelming and too demanding and I just think that society's very complacent and takes its mothers for granted.

0:46Paloma was raised by a single mum who made sure she knew that her gender should never inhibit her ambition and she really ran with that advice. Paloma is the ultimate overachiever. She's got a multitude of qualifications, including an MA in scenography. That's all about crafting theatrical scenery. She's worked in cabaret, magic, films and even the circus. Then, of course, she became the internationally celebrated singer-songwriter she is today. But now she's asking herself, asking all of us, I guess, can women have it all? And in particular, what does it mean to be a woman and a mother today?

1:25I'm over the moon to say that Happy Place Books are publishing her utterly brilliant book which is called MILF, wait for it, Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fuckery. It's fantastic. It's incredibly raw, it is incredibly funny. I laughed out loud reading sections of this book which I think is rare to laugh out loud at a book, it's hilarious. She talks about the challenges of IVF, about the invisible load women carry. Oof, that is a big one. And what it even means to be a good mum. Before we managed to get to chatting about some of the stuff though, we, well look, we were both a bit manic actually.

2:05I had woken up with some sort of allergic reaction to something, I don't know what. And just a matter of hours before, my lips had sort of inflated. They were ginormous. Luckily they'd gone down to nearly their normal size, but they were sort of stinging and tingling. And I felt, how do I describe it? Untethered. I felt like I was sort of floating all around the place. I was exhausted, slightly overwhelmed, which was actually quite handy because it's exactly what we talked about. And I think Paloma, having just finished a European tour, felt similar, but without the weird allergic reaction to something going on.

2:44so anyway that is where you're going to join us in just a moment hysteria

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4:50And I'd love to see you there. The Chiswick House Festival is less than five weeks away, which is scary. I can't believe it. On Saturday, the 13th of July, Lisa Snowden, Paul Brunson, Rhiannon Lambert will all be doing talks. and you won't want to miss Denise Van Outen's DJ set. Tickets are very nearly sold out, so you've got to move fast, guys. Then on Sunday the 14th, there are talks from Gabby Bernstein all the way from America, Roxy Nafusi, live music from The Overtones. And listen to this, I'm going to be recording a live podcast with the one and the only Jason Donovan. I can't wait. Get your tickets now.

5:27I want to see you there, the Happy Place Festival. All you need to do is head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk. right let's get on with it here's the show

5:58I um I'm glad that we're both

6:06feeling hysterically manic aren't we what's going on this is motherhood this is motherhood that's all that's the episode done guys we've finished hysteria absolutely hysteria but i genuinely i woke up with big fat lips i don't know why i'm having some weird reaction and i feel really spacey today i don't know what's going on paloma i can't help you because i can't help myself oh god well it's not going to help anyone listening either which is really good news um but oh my god congrats on this thank you that's on this you actually made me write it so thank you i forced you to write it um it's just so brilliant and i was texting you throughout me reading the book because there's so many bits that i was like i feel seen i feel heard The book is called MILF, Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fuckery, which is a great anagram for MILF.

7:08What does MILF mean to you? Because in the book you discuss the problems with the word MILF, which I hadn't really given the time to think about properly. The fact that we perhaps see mothers as unsexy is one way of looking at it. So the MILF thing is really like, oh, wow, a mum would actually like to fuck. Yeah. But then also the fact that women are only good for two things, having sex and parenting. Interesting. Yeah, I find it quite insulting. But like a lot of people, when you reclaim the word, it suddenly becomes OK. I think I kept getting called a milf a lot and I wasn't quite sure whether I should appreciate it or tell people to F off.

8:00Because it feels a bit like a pat on the back, like a runner-up prize, like, well done, you're still attractive. And it's like, oh, actually, I'm still a sexual being. I'm still me and I didn't on giving birth lose my entire identity and just become like a kind of 1950s projected version apron wearing woman it's still us and I think our generation are different in that sense like I think we're quite as mothers quite well my circles everyone's still quite full of their identity and who they are which I think is really important but that's why I wanted to call the book also I'm not one for like shying around a subject it's very me to like just be like bam and the cover is the best book cover I've ever seen in my life I'm obsessed with it you're so right though there's this strange phenomenon where when a woman has a baby we do sort of reframe them entirely and go we're not quite sure or the world isn't quite sure what to make of them or who they are anymore whereas there's that sort of image of a a dad with a newborn baby and a papoose and it's like oh my god he's so hot look at him he's so hot and sexy but for a woman it's like oh god bless them are they you know they look a bit knackered and it's just a totally different experience to you know becoming a mother it's so it's the same with all kind of social construct isn't it like aging men are celebrated yeah holding babies men are celebrated like women we're not allowed to age putting on weight people go oh a sexy dad bod in whatever tabloid publication like forgiven immediately yeah and it's just constantly celebrated for men to be showing like the different sides of themselves but as women like god forbid we change in any direction it's like dolly parton in the pta meeting song that she does where she's just like so attractive and it's sort of like the ultimate anthem I think still still hot and people are shocked by it or assume that if you are still hot and full of your own identity that you're a selfish terrible parent yep I know I remember one of my friends having her nails done not long after her baby was born the community midwife who had come over was very judgmental about her having had the time to get her nails done and she was like but this makes me feel like me this is the bit of me that I really need at the moment but there is so much judgment on women I think even I feel like this is a really courageous book because even talking about motherhood is terrifying even discussing it it feels like we are quite silenced in ways and that we can't truly say we're struggling that we're not coping that we find bits of it tiresome or bits of it really difficult it's the the essence of it is we're meant to just feel gratitude and that's obviously as a disclaimer a given that we feel grateful that we've been able to have children and that we're extremely grateful and in love with these little beings in our life but there should still be room to say wait a minute this bit of it's problematic or wait a minute this is so hard and I don't know how the hell to do it it It feels like we don't have the space to discuss those subjects.

11:28Yeah, sometimes at the end of the day you just get into bed at 8.30 feeling like it's 1am and you're like, I can't believe that I survived today, all the things that were thrown at me. Not to mention the fact that quite often I'm with a seven and a three-year-old. They often have days where I've lost one or they nearly died and it's commonplace and you're like nervous system supposed to recover like oh one just ran in front of a car today and there was a big crowd and like the other day I was on tour and the three-year-old just thought it'd be funny to hide without announcing we were playing hide and seek and I had people standing in front of all the entrances and exits of the main hotel and I was screaming like a blood-curdling scream and people just thought once I'd found her that I'd overreact like oh this woman she's so dramatic but my life was flashing before my eyes and I don't really care what people thought about me blood purdling screaming then you're like you know people are texting you stuff like hey um here's the you know in my case like here's some ideas for your Glastonbury outfit and you're just like um can I just have five minutes because I literally just saw my whole life crumbling down and now the baby's in my arms you know you'll have a night where both of them are tag-teaming to wake up and you have 45-minute naps over and over again for a whole night until your insomnia kicks in and your brain's just working and you miss four hours of sleep and then just as you fall asleep, the alarm goes off to get them ready for school.

13:11And it's all just like... And then you show up for work and people are like, are you okay? And you're just like, no. In a word, no. Not really. And actually, you, and sometimes I have to do this too, you've got to switch it on, you've got to perform. You're on a stage in front of thousands of people having to, as you say, sort of adhere to the aesthetics of what it's, you know, to be a woman in the public eye and sing and perform and be charismatic and you've literally had no sleep or had these ginormous worries going on. You talk about this in the book, having this sort of post, supposedly post-feminist era that we're in where we're looking at women having careers not just jobs because they have to but having the choice now to have careers and supposedly coping with that and I think if we look back over the female lineage in all of our families there's probably a bit of a similar theme unless you had you know families that have a history of going to university or having academic careers whatever my family definitely did not have that neither of my nans worked at all both My granddad's went out to work.

14:21There wasn't a choice for them to do that. My mum had a bunch of jobs, none which she particularly liked. So I think I've really felt quite a lot of pressure and responsibility to go, well, I've got the opportunity. I better bloody well take it and do something with the opportunities I've got. But I often feel like I'm not doing anything well. I'm like oversubscribed, totally stretched bandwidth, stretched beyond and just sort of failing at all of it. And people from the outside might go, oh, no, this is going well, that's going well. But I think it's how you feel you're coping with it. It's so full on.

14:56Also, you know that if you had full attention on one thing, how exceptional it would be. And you're just doing like, you know, giving everything your 40 % because there's too many things. You've only got several 40%. And, you know, in your case, you're doing amazingly at all of those 40%. sense but it's just that feeling that you're not giving anything your full thing and also I really worry as well like with the modern age that I'm often preoccupied when I'm around my children because I'll be like replying to a message or like getting a work call pushing a pram taking them to park at the same time trying to be like a present parent but never fully present in anything and I feel like society really needs to update because we were sort of sold this dream of like the feminist dream.

15:54You can have it all and the reality is you can't have it all. You can have a bit of everything but you can't have it all and I notice in my life that like as the same as you, like the sort of CEO of my business, is that I'm finding the hardest part being when I'm with my kids because sometimes I haven't had time to plan a brilliant activity or to make the best meal that I want them to eat or like get them into bed on time because I took a work call or whatever and then they're going to be tired for school you know like all of that and you're just and then you're sort of like existing around in a heteronormative sense not I'm not speaking about anything other than that at this point um you're sort of around like a heteronormative guy who thinks that his contribution as either I mean I didn't even have that but like that just contributing to finances is as much as what you're doing and it isn't because knowing what it's like to contribute to all the finances in my case and also the silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent and the non-silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent is overwhelming and too demanding and I just think that culture's very society's very complacent and takes its mothers for granted I think that's what I wanted to kind of put across in the book because when and the kind of like annoying part about this book I think is that I think quite a lot of women will probably read it but who I'd like to read it would be male fathers because I think that there's this kind of idea that like a Mother's Day breakfast in bed is enough to say a bit of dry toast and clap, clap, clap, we love you.

18:02It's not enough. I literally just want to throw it in the bloody bin. I can make my own toast. But can you see that I'm doing a repetitive action every day that you could just say, I'm going to do that. And in some cases in marriages, it's been 10, 20, 30, 40 years of people watching their mothers or their wives doing this same thing over and over again. And it's like, why aren't you just doing it? like I think it needs to change in two areas I think that men need to be raised in a different way to actually feel more responsible I think girls are raised to feel responsible for a lot of stuff emotions people's feelings housework contributions like all of this stuff responsibility like I have two daughters and I and I hear myself talking to them I think if I had sons I would do this to them as well like you are responsible for others feelings you're responsible to notice things um so there's that and then I also think that employers as well because there's this idea that sort of comes from patriarchal and capitalist ideologies, that money is paramount, money's the most important contribution you can make.

19:27And actually it's not. It's definitely on an even keel with, like, emotional labour and in terms of, like, the running of a successful household. And I don't think it's enough for, in heteronormative situations, for men to think that just bringing money into the house is enough and I didn't even have that either but like I think quite a lot of situations are like that but as somebody who brings money in I know that my workload on an emotional level is way harder. The point is you like many women out there are attempting to do it all to fulfill all roles so you're a career woman you're driving this brand this company that is Paloma Faith but you're also nurturing and ensuring that you are instilling these you know things into your kids but also keeping the house running and the level of worrying that you're doing and I think for many women today we feel like we've got to be all for to have a whole life so you've got I get annoyed as well with people saying oh she's a bit snappy or she's a bit irritable and it's like always blamed on our hormones but my experience just like when you get drunk it's like it's the same feelings it's just that you express them differently but it's like this vilification of like basically someone who's overloaded and overstretched and rather than being like oh she's a bit snappy maybe we should be asking why she's overloaded and what can I do to alleviate it so she can be the best version of herself which she really wants to be like I know what I'm capable of and I really want to be the best mother and the best human being I can be and And quite often I'm not.

21:31And I think that's because of the exhaustion. I think most of us feel like this, that we're we're not quite nailing anything and that we are. It's so strange because I think if we asked my mum, maybe your mum, I'm not sure what her answer would be. If they felt they had done a good enough job parenting, they'd probably go, yeah, you know, you're fed, you were loved, you had your holiday. great whereas the pressure for us now feels immense it's more sort of emotionally nuanced that we're meant to be raising kind people empathetic people but then that we've also got to emotionally regulate all the time which we know is important but at times feels utterly impossible and I constantly worry like oh my god is my kid going to be in therapy in 10 years because I said this one thing or I did this one thing or whatever I don't think those thoughts were necessarily at the forefront for the...

22:23I feel guilty about something that happened this weekend, which is really appropriate to what you're saying. I was really overwhelmed and I was upset and I was crying and I was just... But there was no-one else there except me and my kids and we're in a cab back from the airport and I'd just been on this European tour and took them with me and I was really tired because of not much sleep and we'd been to three cities in four days and I was just crying and my daughter turned to me and was like, why are your eyes watering so much? Are you crying? And I'm really regretting my answer because I should have said yes.

23:02I'm overwhelmed and whatever because that's like saying I'm a human being. But I was like, I think I'm just tired. I think I need to go to sleep. And I just feel like even that is like an example of where we go, I failed as a parent. Yeah. I think most of us go to bed feeling like we've done something wrong every day, which is just causing even more pressure for all of us. Like we're not, we're looking for this level of perfection in all areas that isn't there. And going back to something you said a moment ago, looking at the sort of disparity often between men and women in heteronormative relationships.

23:39When a man decides to take paternity leave or is a stay at home dad, which does happen here and there, there is immense praise there is immense sort of highlighting of that individual like oh my god that is such sacrifice yes woman who says her husband stays at home and she's lucky but then for women it's not even like it's ignored there can often be judgment on that choice so you can't win and that's what it feels like if you choose to have a career or many people just have to go to work that's the norm um then there's judgment on oh you're leaving your kids but then if you do choose to stay home or you're in the position where you can be a stay-at-home mom it's like either oh good for you or don't you want a career like there's never an easy option for a woman in this situation you're judged in whatever you do whatever you do whatever you do and there's a lot of terminology you know particularly having experienced as i speak about in the book fertility treatments that even at that stage a lot of the language is like there's a lot of implication of female failure so they said they will say like your transfer has failed or you failed to sustain this pregnancy when you have a miscarriage or you I think I've been told like that my uterus was an um what was it something like an an uninviting environment or something I can't remember the word they use but it was like it's all about saying like you're not good enough you're failing that's during fertility treatment then you like have a baby and then it's Like, did you succeed with your breastfeeding or did you fail to develop a good latch or whatever?

25:32And it just keeps going on and on and on. And it's the vocabulary that we're surrounded with that's all perpetually just punching us in the head. Like, even like when you get to reading age and it's like, is your child reading? And you feel to blame if they're not. Yeah. Even if they've been diagnosed with whatever learning difficulties, you're like, it's my fault. I didn't have enough time to sit and read with them. Or maybe I shouldn't be so lax about it or whatever it is. You just feel like everything's your fault and judgment. Like, yeah. My kid killed a ladybird the other day and I felt like I'd fail because I was like, I'm sure I talked to them about like how sacred life is so many times.

26:22this ladybird that will tip you over the edge if you're having a shit day that ladybird is like that is it it's a symbol of everything going tits up it's so honestly this was reading this book as you can see i've dogged eight million pages because there's just so many bits where like i i wasn't the sort of person that read many books about parenting before i had my kids i just thought it's too overwhelming i'm going to get really confused or i'm going to end up feeling more guilty if I haven't followed this prescribed way that I should do things and this is why I loved your book is that there is absolute valid advice in there which is coming from someone that is living and breathing it but there's no level of judgment you're doing the absolute opposite you are getting rid of all this bollicky stigma that surrounds so many things to do with motherhood and just going let's get it all out on the table and talk about this this is real for so many people out there let's just be honest about it and the whole thing just felt like a breath of fresh air even going back to breastfeeding which you mentioned a moment ago and the guilt and the pressure and the the again the situation where you can't win if you do or you don't do it are you doing it right you're not doing it right but if you are if you are managing to breastfeed when you're out in public it doesn't even feel comfortable to get your boobs out and do it because people might look at you or you feel like you are being watched it doesn't feel like there's any space just to be and be the kind of mother that you want to be and I guess it comes down to intuition you have to go on what feels right to you but for many of us our intuition is buried so deep because we are so bombarded whether it is by books or by imagery on Instagram of sort of the perfect family perfect children in clean clothes all smiling and playing nicely so we're the starting blocks are shit to be honest and we need to actually just go what do i feel is right you know i know myself and my kid better than anyone what do i know to be true but it's it's really hard to get there when you're knackered and when you're overstretched it's really hard yeah and you've lost perspective because you're so exhausted you don't even know what's right and wrong anymore anyway no but i do think like the mindset with parenting is do your best yeah and i say it in the book like you can you we all try and do our best within whatever our circumstances are people have children in really horrific circumstances and they blame themselves but they did all mothers try and do their best and I think it's really awful to judge like you know I hate it when I hear about you know women who've had mental health issues or maybe their babies have to go to foster care for a bit like they would they're not not trying to do their best and it's not fair to go oh terrible parent like people are trying and it's difficult um so that's a lot in the book But there's also stuff in it that I think is important that separates the woman from the child.

29:33Like I didn't want to write a book that's just about being a mum because the kind of whole premise of it is also about being an individual that also has kids but has another life. And also like the situation and journey of like going from being in a parent, co-parenting, living together situation and then now separated. And like this whole world that's opened up to me of insanity, like just being a single woman again is mad. Because when I broke up with my kid's dad, there was no dating apps. And then I've like broke up with him and now that's the only way you meet. anyone and it's like a wild west and there's so many mad people out there it's just like weird the whole thing you're in the public eye just to throw another spanner in the works i know and everyone wants to go on a date with me even if they're a good person even if they're a bad person because if i if they go on a date with me they might have a laugh with their mates so it's like there's no filter really because at least like if you're not in the public eye you people might be like, no, I'm not that, I don't really fancy you.

30:43But even if they don't fancy me, they still want to go on a date with me. So I get to, like, meet people sometimes who are just, it's obvious they don't fancy me. And they're just like, you're a famous person. Oh, my God, the whole dating app thing, it absolutely, was there a bit of you that was excited to get back into dating? I thought it would be funny. I've never really been a dater anyway. I've never met anybody in that way because there wasn't apps before. I've always just felt a chemistry with people and then either it works or it doesn't but I don't meet anybody in my job because it's just always buzzy and there's no one around and people find me inapproachable I think.

31:27Because you're in the public eye? yeah I think because usually in most situations I walk into the focus is on me so people don't really want to be seen to like approach me because it's intimidating so then I go on an app to go I am available and then all the ogres and the weirdos and the baby reindeers just come out and knock on my door and they're all there. Come, come for me. But I'm sensing like towards the end of the book, it seems that you've found a certain amount of peace with being alone for a period of time. Yeah. And feeling into that, what does it mean for you and what might you discover about yourself being completely on your own?

32:16Do you think you are in need of solitude? I do, but I've never done it and it's like a thing. It's like a thing. What's scary? I think so. I feel like being faced with yourself is difficult for anyone and I'm somebody who's built a whole life of distractions from that. And, like, I mean, people are like, how do you cope with your breakup? And I'm like, well, I wrote a whole album and a book because that's how I cope. And it's quite a sort of common theme with successful women, I think, that we just go, okay, what am I going to do? I'm just going to put my head down and produce something, whether it's a book, a baby, a painting, whatever, design a range of clothes, interior design range.

33:05Like whatever it is that I've done is like, it's all a manifestation of unhealed trauma. I'm glad we can laugh about it.

33:19I know what you mean. And I think also sort of, you know, neither of us come from showbiz families or working class families and really worked hard to like get a foot in the door. Yeah. So I think even when you go through mental turmoil or in a shitty situation, you don't feel like you've got the time to go or press pause a bit. You push on. I mean, I certainly push on. And that's just the way that I've always gone about things. I don't like it about myself. When you come from like a working class background, you always think that the money's going to stop. So you have this idea that you've got to just keep doing it because what if you stop for six months and then the momentum goes and you lose it all?

33:59I really sensed that when you were talking about miscarriage where you quite literally pushed through a miscarriage. You were on set when you miscarried and you didn't tell anyone. You just carried on working. You were on set filming like fight scenes whilst miscarrying. and then your mentality was also just to push on. Do you wish you'd done it differently? No. I've had a couple of friends recently. I miscarried. Like somebody who works with me was on stage with me and miscarried. And I just completely understood. I mean, I asked them, please don't feel you have to come on. But they were like, I want to.

34:48I don't regret doing that I think that what would I have done go home and just think about it and like feel sad and lost or I could just go and still do the thing that was tangible and was like it gives me so much joy my working so I just stayed doing that because that's something that was real rather than go home and like mourn something that wasn't going to happen And also you were going through fertility treatment So in your mind it was, let's try again Yeah And you say in the book that you hadn't necessarily realised at the time The strain that that would put on you and your partner at the time's relationship At what point did you think, oh I can see the cracks here, this is not going well A few weeks after I think there was like a lot of tension

35:49and I think it was more about like neither of us really communicating I think, I don't know if you've seen it but it's an amazing series called Scenes from a Marriage, like a remake and there's a scene in that where she gets pregnant and they've got an older child but their marriage is in trouble and she has an abortion and it's so amazingly shot because she asks him to leave the room so she can be on her own a bit and I think that like as a woman you give up your body for these things and I don't think that I talked to him about his experience of it because I wanted to sort of internalise and process my own experience of it and I think that was upsetting for him.

36:40and our relationship was that basically we separated rather than came together in that situation you seem to now be in a pretty good place amicably co-parenting with him yeah yeah yeah yeah we're really in a good place I think we've done a lot of work we went to separation therapy with like a mediator and kind of learned ways to communicate that weren't just like emotionally infused and reactive and what's really apparent really is like we really love each other and we really respect each other maybe now we have a relationship that's better than a lot of actual marriages that are together because there is no expectation anymore and it's like Your expectations not being met is really resentment-inducing.

37:36And I think that I have very few expectations of him now, only really just like as a parent rather than how he treats me. I think that's taken away so much pressure and it's very functional now. It's really good. And even like at times like friends, like we might call each other and go, I've got to tell you this funny thing that happened. That's so good though. That's great. Yeah. And it's interesting how that level of communication has heightened since you've split up. Mm-hmm. And that when you were together, that wasn't necessarily the case. Yeah. But obviously, I don't want to be like, you know, not to bad mouth, but I don't want to come on like a Gwyneth Paltrow character and say, I've got it all nailed.

38:22like there are times where I am livid with him and he does something that reminds me of the reason why I'm not with him and I'm so grateful for those moments because otherwise I'll just be stuck in this kind of perpetual like why don't we just make it work like sometimes I'm like I'm actually glad that you said this it's just like what I feel so annoying me too I think that's just as important it's just that it wouldn't it's not as debilitating or yeah it doesn't like our whole world don't fall apart if we have these moments and also we've got this kind of weird confidence about our relationship which we didn't have I think when we were together where we can have an argument and know no one's going anywhere You can have like a big blowout, not speak for a week and then one of us will just say sorry about whatever.

39:27Yeah. And then it's fine. There's like confidence, whereas I think when we were together maybe we didn't have that as much. It was always feeling like life or death maybe. It's so good that you're just talking about this honestly. I don't think many people do. They don't talk about any of this stuff honestly. I think we just sort of always pretend like everything's going great or we pretend to be much more sort of normal than we are. I mean, I've certainly done that over the years, but I actually find the times when I'm completely honest about things that I feel worried about or scared about are the bits that connect me the most with everybody around me or people that are reading my books or listening to my podcast.

40:07It's because we're all in the same bloody boat. We're all, as you say, trying our best, giving it a good go. the other parts of the book and we're all mad and we're all absolutely mad that was one of the things I loved when I was listening to Alain de Botton talk about going on a date with someone and he was like you should just ask them like how does your mad manifest yeah and if they say they're not mad run a mile yeah bye and I just thought that really stuck with me because it's true yeah like we've all got triggers and madnesses and we're all just muddling through. Like, my mum always says it to me.

40:45Like, when I say, how are you? She goes, muddling through like everyone. Yeah. And it's just too much for us to expect to be, like, the answer to be nailing it. No. And I really also, there's one thing I just want to say because I've got a, like, real bone to pick. Come on, Paloma. People keep saying it to me. You've got this. I hate that expression so much. Like, on me, I'm like, no. Actually, today I don't have this. I feel awful and I feel like last week I felt so overwhelmed that I actually started wishing that I would take myself to A &E and say I'm mentally too unwell to deal with life. Please section me and have a week off and sit in bed and read a few books for a week.

41:31And everyone feels sorry for me for a week because they've really realised now at this point that it is too much. Yeah. and just give me the sympathy that I really crave. I hear you. And just be like, oh, sorry, guys, you all had to do my life for me for a week. Six of you had to do what I do to muck in, to do one person's work, organise the kids, make sure they're happy, blah, blah, blah, all the work commitments, whatever, and then just come out and be like, I read three books this week. It's brilliant. And no one said mum for a whole week.

42:11The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

42:48And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between.

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43:49Your book starts with a text from your mum, which I really loved. I've been thinking about it a lot. This text says, the world is not ready for free women. horribly true what does freedom mean to you or what does it mean to your mum what did you take from that text I think what I took from it was that I am very as you know authentically myself I say when I feel something I say when something's not good enough I think that we've got into a real habitual and sort of groomed as girls and women to make ourselves smaller and our needs less significant and I don't do that and I think that quite a lot of men find that difficult to handle and quite a lot of people find that difficult to handle also women because a lot of women will resent me for being so like brazen about it because maybe they feel they can't why does she talk about her piles on national television there's a bit about that I like that like like it's just so vulgar and it's like it's because you're I interpret that as like you're kind of upset that I'm sort of owning my truth and I also feel that maybe at times men have this sort of fragile egos that we're all kind of groomed and taught to kind of tipped her around on eggshells like no it's okay that you lasted two minutes in the bedroom that's okay and didn't offer to like make me climax it's not okay and I will say it and then people are like this is why this is the freedom this is the freedom that my mum's talking about the world's not ready for it everyone's like scared I meet people and they either want to conquer me tame the beast or they run away because it's difficult to look in the mirror and like it talk back to you but I think it's so brilliant that you so I'm lonely no you're not so I'm here with you babe I love it because you're able to mitigate judgment I'm sure not entirely but to a degree because you can see that anyone who's trying to say anything to you or counter a point you're making or to quieten you it's nothing to do with you it's very much the other person's projection of what they're not saying what they're not doing and it's how the whole world operates as we know and it's certainly how social media operates but it's so easy for all of us to get sucked in and go So, you know, I worry sometimes on a podcast, have I said too much?

46:39Should I have asked a better question? I worry immensely about things and I have to always try and bring it back to why do I care so much? And a lot of the time I don't know any of these people that might have judgments or opinions. I think so many of us and perhaps especially women feel completely stifled because we are waiting for some sort of judgment. And when you throw motherhood in the mix, it's even more accentuated. There's even more worry about what people think about every move we make. Or if you get past 40. Oh, don't even start me on that one. That's in there. The whole ageing thing for women is just, it's gone crazy.

47:17It's gone wild. It's like, what are we meant to do? We're not allowed. I don't normally, this is guys on dating apps, I don't normally date women your age. Oh, fuck. Oh. I just. but you're an anomaly because you're a pop star oh thanks i mean they don't say that but that's like the subject text it's like oh you just double tap on someone you'd like to have fun with because you see crikey and then you're like oh this is a whole person with a career with foibles with you know a deep kind of understanding and self-awareness of their emotional parameters like wants to talk to you about yours and and I've got kids and they're like I don't normally date a woman your age I'm just like my age we're young babes we're so young um but this I want to go back to this honesty because it's one of the reasons why I started doing happy place in the first place was that we can create safe spaces to talk about stuff sometimes that no one's talking about but we can talk about subjects freely without that judgment and with full context because this isn't an article that's going to get transcribed and there's going to be a headline if you're listening to this hopefully you're listening to it in its entirety so if there's one thing you've heard on instagram or you're listening to this conversation now it's backed up with reason and that's so so important and again i think books are the perfect place to do this because you can't truncate it it's in its full form and there's story behind all of it and I found it extremely refreshing to read about your pregnancies and admitting that you didn't like being pregnant again that is strangely a taboo thing to admit but why are we not allowed to say if we enjoyed it or not it's really hard work yeah and and some people love being pregnant and I say that in the book like I say for those of you that love it and who's beauty and everyone thinks you're amazing like I really am happy for them but that chapter I wrote is not for them this chapter is for people who struggle with it who feel really debilitated who may be more prone to like psychological shifts depression whatever I've got a friend at the moment, one of my best friends is pregnant, and I was so relieved because I said, do you like it?

49:52And she just said no. And I was so happy for her. And I was like, like I didn't. It's fine. It's okay to say this is like literally me doing what I need to do to get to the end result that I really want. Yeah. So I have to like the whole process. No, I was sick every day when I was pregnant with my daughter. And it was massively depressing. Some days I couldn't leave the house, I felt so ill. I couldn't have lights on. It was extreme sickness. It was such hard work to get through it. But I do think it's been socially instilled in us that we're meant to just be grateful full stop and feel like we're blooming.

50:34Also, my ankles swelled up so much. I had such bad water retention. I wasn't like, you know, a model that's pregnant, that I see these like tall people who can carry it really well, a bowling ball type, usually a boy. Yeah. I had two girls. I was pregnant everywhere. I was pregnant in my nose, in my earlobes, in my mouth. My ankles went up so huge. I didn't feel amazing pregnant. and I also think that when you do IVF because you're pumping yourself full of like kind of fake hormones you tend to like balloon up it more anyway and I didn't feel attractive or myself and I did feel very detached from my own body.

51:24I didn't, it was alien to me. Well it is the most bizarre thing to go through. Even thinking about it now, my kids are 8 and 11 and I look back and think, oh my God, I can't believe that I was pregnant and these little beings grew inside. I find it bizarre to think about. Also, I really want to talk about post-birth because was it with your first child you had postpartum psychosis? Or was it the second child, first child? Yeah, I had like a psychotic break kind of for a day, yeah. And so what did you experience? What happened? So I had like quite difficult labour but because I had PROMS, premature rupture of membranes.

52:05So I was leaking water from my pregnancy after only seven months pregnant. And I was told that I should induce and that I should get the baby out because I'd be at high risk of infection. And I just, my gut, like every bone in my body was like, no, that's not right. And so I was like, is there another option? and they were like, you go on bed rest and you just drink 700 litres of water a day. I mean, it was four litres a day they recommended to replenish what was being lost. And so I did that for three weeks. And... The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

52:53Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

53:29Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients.

54:04FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. I had like proper contractions for a week before that and I was being really stubborn. I don't know if that was a good idea or not, but I was trying to keep her in long enough to like grow. And then at one point I was just like in bed kind of making animal noises that were like definite labour. And my partner was like, you're in labour and we're going, I'm not going to listen to you anymore.

54:45We're going to the hospital. So we did. And they were like, yeah, you're in labour. and so that week I'd only had three hours of sleep because of having contractions all the time and so I was like all over the place and then I did like 21 hours of labour before an emergency c-section and I was completely delirious because I'd done all of that labour and 14 hours of it without any drugs or any pain relief whatsoever because I was so like determined because I'd been fed this ideal that isn't even true because once I'd had the epidural I was like why did I do this before it's amazing I love it oh great yeah um so then yeah and then because of the lack of sleep combined with like the physical like drainage of like basically being in labor for about five weeks and the baby and I I lost loads of blood and it was really traumatic both of us had heartbeat reductions and whatever it was all very chaotic my body was shaking so much I was projectile vomiting in the room because I've never done any drugs in my whole life which is weird for a rock star but it's great I've never done it so my body overreacts to anything chemical so I was like which is a V-suit and then um yeah and basically I had a psychotic break on day three um I thought that they'd sewn my head onto the wrong body which sounds really funny when I tell the story because it's like oh I was so crazy but it's really not I really was scared and I pressed the alarm and I woke up my partner and I was like they've like they've done this to me and it's you've got to help me get out of here because they might do more and I got like hyper paranoid and I called the midwife that luckily was the one that I speak about in the book that I trusted a lot called Wendy and I was like I was like this is madness like I was like people say people say I'm mad all the time like in the media and stuff but this is it this is it it's actually it and I was going I can't do this and I was trying to give get her to like help me give the baby up for adoption I was really scared and I thought that I that was it I'd lost my mind I was I genuinely believed that the body was not mine which sort of makes sense because it felt like it wasn't but I was looking down at it and it just didn't feel it felt like my head and brain was on somebody else's body and then she just said I'm gonna take this baby away for a while and you're going to sleep and I'll bring her back in the morning.

57:30And then she took all these syringes and got loads of colostrum out of my nipples because it was quite soon. And she fed her all night with syringes. She was going, you're so lucky you've got so much. And I was just freaking out and I just closed my eyes and I slept for like seven or eight hours. And then she wheeled her in and I was like, I'm so sorry about what happened and I don't want to put her up for adoption. I just needed a rest and I did have like a long term postpartum depression after that but the psychosis luckily was curbed from one night's sleep and some people including some friends I have Laura Dockrill for example who's written a book about it didn't have the luck of just being able to have one night's sleep but I think it's really important that people accept and normalise that psychologically can really affect us.

58:29And I think I lived for like two years with quite bad postpartum depression, but I didn't realise I'd had it because nobody really said that to me. And I don't know whether it was because I slipped through the net or whether people just assume that if you're in the public eye, everyone's around you and looking after you. But I don't know what it was, but it wasn't until it lifted that I realised that that's what I'd been living with. Did you do anything to try? I mean, I guess if you weren't cognisant to being depressed, you might have not tried to lift the fog or do anything. Did you have therapy during that time?

59:07Were you trying to actively feel better or were you just day-to-day getting through it? Just day-to-day getting through it and chasing my tail and not sleeping enough either, so it just makes it worse. For the first baby, I didn't have a night help. or accept help even like some people offered and I said no and I didn't like I think my partner was so overwhelmed he didn't say I think you're ill or whatever mentally I mean but like it's still illness and I think with the second one I really put stuff in place and I like made sure that it didn't happen again and it did happen to an extent but I felt like I was prepared in a way that wasn't with the first.

59:54Do you think, I mean, I often find it hard to accept help and I certainly find it hard to ask for help. I feel like I've always had this fiercely independent drive that just stops me, negates altogether me reaching out and saying, I'm really not doing well. Can I have help? Where do you think that comes from within you? Well, I've read a lot about it. It's like hyper independence is usually a trauma response to feeling like you can't always depend on people around you so you create a situation where you create your own safety in a sort of hyper overly accentuated way that kind of I think builds a bit of a wall around you because not only are you not asking for help but you also I'm not very good at knowing how to accept help so if people say can I I feel like it's a debt and it's a debt I don't want that's exactly how I feel what do you do about that I know loads of people who are really happy to take help and it and the person helping gets joy from it too but I feel really blocked with that one I do but I'm trying to now I'm sort of having a second go at the game in dating and stuff I'm sort of trying to like meet people or what I'm looking for is someone who is who they are today rather than somebody that has potential to be something else and also somebody who um is good at accepting help from me but also offering help back and that's so much more scarce than you'd imagine because I'm I tend to meet people who want a lot from me or see me as this strong person and then like please look after me because I'm so good at looking after everyone and everything and when I meet people who aren't like that what I've experienced subsequently has been that that then becomes like can become a bit toxic and they use it as control like I did this for you and then you're like they're playing on the same sort of mental health problem as the opposite so it's difficult to navigate It's a tough one isn't it?

1:02:26I don't sound very hopeful, but I am hopeful. Yeah, no, I think you could be hopeful and also have historic issues that you're worried about. I think that's totally realistic if you're entering the dating arena, especially for the first time in a while. It's scary, scary shit. I mean, you end the chapter, which is named Running, with something that made me feel quite sad. And I don't know if it's because maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but you put at the end, don't make the mistakes I did. Do you genuinely think that you, like are you taking responsibility for that or that you made the mistakes or do you not just see it as in everyone's life there are circumstances and things come and things go and it's just the way it is?

1:03:14It felt like you put a lot of blame on yourself. I feel like that's like part of being like of the personality type that's like high achiever. I think high achievers are always trying to strive to be the best. They care so much about whatever and thinks about them. They're like preoccupied with being seen as being everything, like kind, funny, successful, you know, independent. All of this stuff is like about taking all the responsibility. And so it manifests in different areas of your life. so when I talk about you know feeling hyper responsible for my own success it's the same as feeling hyper responsible for my relationships but I also think that like one way that I'm starting to consider recently that I need to be hyper responsible for is actually hyper responsible but for myself in the sense of like caring for myself because I'm not very good at it.

1:04:22And I don't really know, like a friend said it to me the other day, I'm going to, she said, I'm busy at the moment but I want a monologue to you about self-love. And I was like, I don't even know what that means because it's like this idea that you're so sacrificial and this kind of like feminine martyrdom. There's a chapter in there about martyrdom. And it's just very difficult to sort of navigate. But I also am very aware that like in the sort of psychological realm, you can't sit and talk to your therapist about what other people have done and analyse them. You can only really talk about yourself and how you've acted.

1:05:00so I've got that kind of inbuilt in me I can only work on me and my mistakes aren't necessarily that I failed they're also my mistakes I acknowledge that maybe my choices weren't right that maybe I was like completely and utterly preoccupied with this idea of like romance and love and went for that and didn't think about the person being able to like have a successful long-term relationship with me that was able to kind of ebb and flow with time and our different changes I think when you first meet anyone you're always right for each other in that moment but I think what happened to me and mine without going into excessive detail is that the moment I became a mother I changed and I needed someone to change with me and they wouldn't because they wanted to have the same dynamic with me which was always from me a very nurturing parental role and then I had kids and I didn't want to and I and I didn't just have that within my relationship I had that with other relatives and I had it with friends as well that had always been sort of reliant on me to be a maternal role in their life and had had I had a lot of people have some outbursts about it yeah I loved that in the book you you talk about the fact that this isn't just for people that have given birth or adopted or have that parental role in in a in a tangible sense it's do are you a nurturer do you look after your mates do you mother the people in your life This is applicable to everybody.

1:06:47Yeah, it's a feminine expectation. It's an expectation of women to be maternal. Yeah, I know it's huge. And it doesn't mean that you've got kids. Nope. And also, like you say, please can lots of men read this? Yeah. That would be really cool. I would love that. Me too. I mean, I've ticked off literally only two points from my book because there's just, from my notepad, there's just so much to talk to you about. I do want to leave people with some stuff in the book that we haven't talked about as well. So it's fresh to their ears and to their eyes. But I loved it. I loved reading this book. I felt it's so important.

1:07:23You're talking about things that aren't discussed openly enough and you're shining a light on some of the realities of being a mum or a nurturer. Certainly someone that strives for the best, sort of looking at perfectionism, etc. it's just it's beautifully done and I hope you feel proud that you've written it it's really brilliant thank you for talking to me today Paloma thanks for having me and thanks for making me write it yay I'm so glad I did Paloma I love you I love Paloma for so many reasons you're smart and you're direct and you're astute and you are raw and you speak from the heart and you've somehow managed to mitigate that worry about what other people think of you and you inspire me hugely for all of those reasons thank you Paloma for coming on to Happy Place and thanks for writing your brilliant book and thanks for letting us publish it MILF is published by Happy Place Books and it's out right now are you a big reader if you are please come and join us over on Instagram we're at Happy Place Book Club we read a book together each month and chat about the themes and the characters and it's just so much fun and you'll also see book club episodes of happy place the podcast pop up on your feed i get to chat to the authors which i just love also you might have heard in that episode paloma mentioned those wise words from alain de botton he's been on happy place the podcast and that is a brilliant episode to go back to if you didn't catch it at the time i think about it all the time that episode a huge thanks again to paloma today to the producer and ashka tate happy place studios and to you you gorgeous lot

1:09:31Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

1:10:03Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in figs. Figs are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. Figs moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. Figs gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.