Paul Brunson: Attachment theory, dating apps, and bunions

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that helps us love ourselves and each other more deeply. Today, I'm chatting to Paul Bronson. And what I say is that instead of focusing on, let me go out and try to find the one, find your social capital. Do more of the things that turn your lights on. Do more of the things that make you go to sleep with a smile on your face and wake up with a smile on your face. And when you do that, when your light is on, I guarantee you everything else in life becomes better, you know, and that's that's ultimately the best strategy that we could use in life.

0:40Paul is a relationship expert, entrepreneur and TV host best known here in the UK for Celebsco dating and Married at First Sight. He's the head of global research insights at dating app Tinder and has been named the world's most influential matchmaker by the Matchmaking Institute. and he's just written an absolutely gorgeous book that I'm incredibly excited to say is being published by Happy Place Books. It's called Find Love and it's got everything in there. Red flags, green flags, dating apps, attachment styles, compromising, basically everything that can make finding love feel like an absolute minefield.

1:23And this all applies whether you're single or in a relationship, by the way. I've been married for nine years, but I learned so much from this chat with Paul. Oh, and by the way, some behind the scenes intel. So producer Anushka always reminds us not to touch the table if possible, because then you can hear it in your headphones and it's really annoying. Paul, the lovely man that he is, was really doing his best to follow the rules. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

2:05No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

2:41And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. My dog Max loves chewing on my favorite pair of shoes almost as much as he loves his Blue Buffalo Life Protection Formula dry dog food. Seriously, he never leaves a crumb. And I love it too because it's made with high-quality protein, antioxidant-packed fruits, and nutrient-rich veggies. Blue Buffalo foods are made with the superior ingredients your dog needs to thrive.

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3:57Right, here it is. This is the show.

4:21Paul, welcome to the Happy Place podcast. Thank you very much for having me. I'm so happy to have you on for so many reasons. One of them being I am chuffed and proud to say that Happy Place Books are publishing your beautiful book. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm over the moon. Yeah, you know, it is truly, truly, truly an honor to do this in partnership with you, in partnership with Happy Place. And it is a happy book. It's such a happy book. Yes. And it's a really clever book for so many reasons. One being, and you say this in there, you bridge the gap between the advice you'd get from your auntie and the data you'd get from a scientist.

5:01Yes. Which is what we need. We don't want it to be just sort of nostalgic and advice led or just data because that gets quite heavy. This book has got all of it in there. That seems very important. Yes, it's the in between. And I think it's because my history is I'm a researcher. You know, that's really what my first career was before matchmaking. And so I like the nerdy empirical data. I go to sleep every night for this is no exaggeration. I am either reading a research study or I'm listening to a lecture almost every night. Like I fall asleep to that. I was listening to a lecture on Aristotle's books last night.

5:41like before i went to sleep you know it's one of those where i love that but then also on the other side there is value to your auntie or to your friend telling you about the experiences that they've gone through yeah that anecdotal evidence that's good so i'm trying to take that plus the nerdy stuff bring it together and deliver it in a way that's easily digestible so before we get to the data and the sciencey stuff what do you bring to the table from your personal life from your own experience of love and from your childhood where what value do you find in your own personal experience of love oh my gosh I mean starting off as a as a child I think I had a you know challenges as a child and and I think this is important is because when you have gone through the challenges when you walk through the the storm you have that experience you could speak to it firsthand right so I have that from the standpoint of I always look at people talk about attachment style right uh most people right now 50 to 60 percent of adults have a secure attachment style which is great yeah right not me you know i have an anxious attachment style which is why i'm going to be hitting the table all day i'm joking i'm joking i'm joking one note yeah you don't hit the table it's your only note boom you know what i'm doing i'm watching the water level to see if i'm touching the table that's what i'm doing please don't worry about it No, we'll all just do this.

7:05Get it out of our system. All right, it's out. I've touched it. It's out. So for anyone that doesn't know what attachment theory is, can you do a little breakdown? Because I think this is such an interesting topic and it's one that I've certainly been trying to learn about. I don't think I've got a secure attachment theory. And, you know, I think you have to go through quite a severe period of therapy and analysis to work out exactly what it is. You don't want to do like a quick online quiz for this stuff. This is like a big, thorough jobby. Agreed. So what is attachment theory, if you can break it down?

7:36Sure. In short, Ainsworth, who was a researcher, she did some research in Uganda and then she went over to Baltimore, not too far from where I lived. And what she did is she looked at the relationship that children had with their primary caregiver, which was typically their mother. Right. And what they did is it was called the stranger test, where they would take the caregiver and the child and walk into a room, just the two of you. and then the primary caregiver would leave, leave the child in the room. Now, when the caregiver came back just a few moments later, they would look at whether or not the child immediately adjusted.

8:13So, you know, if your caregiver leaves the room, comes back in, you're probably freaking out a little bit when they leave, but when they come back, you calm down, you're like, okay, caregiver's back, I'm cool. That was considered a secure, right? Now, if the caregiver left, you're freaking out a little bit and then comes back and then you have no reaction at all you're like i don't care that you're back it doesn't matter that would be avoided right you have no emotional attachment to your caregiver now if the caregiver left came back and you were you know happy but then still a little bit anxious you know that they're there but you're going back and forth that's an anxious attachment style these became the three primary attachment styles now there was Dr.

8:56Levine, who wrote a book called Attached just a few years ago. And that really brought attachment to the forefront. And what you have is a lot of people now talking about attachment style. And the reason why is because that attachment as a child is how we show up as adults. It's how we relate to each other as adults. So if you have an anxious attachment style, like I have an anxious attachment style, what ends up happening is I'm constantly thinking that my wife or the person I'm in a relationship with it could be a business partner it could be anything that I don't know if I if if if they see my worth if they see my value so I'm constantly trying to reconnect with them to make sure are you okay like am I okay this is ringing a bell but if I was avoidant I would just say ah it it it doesn't yeah you know so interesting yeah and it shows up in everything Even when you look at things like one night stands, for example, you see that we react based on our attachment style.

10:00So if you are secure or if you are anxious, you typically hate a one night stand. You have low satisfaction. As a matter of fact, there's some research, there's some great research on this where the number of orgasms, right, that has had is much lower if you have a secure or if you have an anxious. Yes, yes, yes. Number of orgasms you have is lower if you have secure or anxious attachment style for casual sex. However, if you are avoidant, number of orgasms are higher. Why is that? Why? Because you have no emotional connection. So you're good. You don't want to have an emotional connection. You're like, this is great.

10:45I don't even have to talk to you. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So attachment styles show up everywhere. Everywhere. Wow. Everywhere. Yeah. I mean, this is a subject I'm still learning about. It seems like there are always new corners you're going to discover with attachment theory. And it's embedded in all of us. Once you discovered that you had an anxious attachment style, how did you approach relationships differently? Well, I didn't discover that until I was, you know, adult and already married. But what happened, and this was a blessing, is that my wife had a secure attachment. And the single best thing we can do if we are anxious or we are avoidant is to find someone actually with a secure attachment because your attachment can shift because they will show you how to love in a healthy way.

11:35Wow. So that is the quick way of doing it. There's many other ways. Cognitive behavioral therapy is very, very important in terms of shifting. And there's other things you can do. But finding someone who just has a secure attachment style, and that doesn't have to be a lover. It could be a good friend. It could be a work colleague. But that's the reason why it's so important to surround yourself with healthy people who love and feel and operate in a healthy way. Can you change your attachment style? Absolutely. You can. Absolutely. And that's very important to know is that you can. But there's a good and bad to that, right?

12:17The good is that you can change from anxious and avoidant to secure. Secure, yeah. But the bad is you can change from secure to anxious or avoidant. So that's a big problem that a lot of people, you know, I think that we don't put enough emphasis on casual relationships. relationships right so you think okay and not you but anyone right yeah just pointing at me i was like we need to talk here's what you really think right but you could have you could say a lot of people say oh you know what um you're going back on the dating scene you know oh just just date anyone it doesn't really matter just go out for a few dates it's okay no those interactions can have a lasting impact on you, right?

13:02So having a secure attachment, you can move to avoid and you can move to anxious. So yes, you can change. Okay, this is extremely interesting because I think many people out there now listening to this who are single and who want to find love and they want to really get themselves in a great relationship. I think many people in this day and age, because dating has changed drastically over the years, don't know where to start. I mean, I met my husband in 2011 in a club in Ibiza. Very old fashioned way of meeting someone like, oh, I fancy him. He fancies me. And we've managed to, through hard work, make our marriage work.

13:40And here we are. Nice. But obviously, if I was single today, I'd probably jump on an app immediately. Dating has really, really changed. So when you talk about casual relationships, should people be pickier when they're approaching dating? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I think that we should be very selective in who we commit to. Right. But we should be very open in who we interact with initially. Okay. Right. Because so I ran, my wife and I had a matchmaking agency in the United States. And it was one of the biggest matchmaking agencies before we sold it in 2017. And what we discovered is that most people don't go, like most people don't interact with other people, especially today.

14:20Yeah. You actually, it was a blessing that you met your husband in, you said, 2011. Yeah. The next year, Tinder was founded. And when Tinder launched first mobile app, right, what you saw is you saw a massive transferring of people to go online to interact. And now online is the number one way, whether that's a dating app or Instagram or whatever it may be. So that you were kind of like at the that was the last year. of people really meeting people you know in person yeah but but but what i say and i and i think what's important here is that you want to meet lots of people you this is very important for many reasons right we're social creatures we we we we thrive off of connection you call this social capital social capital i love this theory because i'd never heard that phrase and it's even changed how I'm living my life outside of, obviously I'm not dating, outside of the dating realm.

15:16It's changed how I'm going about my day. It's informing whether I bother to go to something or not. And sometimes I will choose rest over going to something, but the value in social capital seems pertinent to this conversation. Tell us, tell us about it. Absolutely. It all connects because social capital is just essentially everything that is our asset. It could be our network. So our friends, the people that we know, it could be our skills. We could be a phenomenal podcaster. Like, you know, whatever it is that we do, right? Fashion, whatever it is, simply pour more of your time and energy in those things.

15:52And as you do that, what ends up happening is the other things level up like a tide, right? So I guarantee you, the more prolific you are at doing this, the more your network grows. Yeah. The more prolific you are at fashion. you know wearing my love dress for you oh my i see it i see it with the heart yeah yeah it's chosen especially for you no i i like it i like it i like it but i'm saying but and and and the more you know the the better you are the the more energy and that you throw into fashion it then elevates your podcasting actually and your network right so this is social capital and what i say is that instead of focusing on, let me go out and try to find the one, find your social capital, do more of the things that turn your lights on, do more of the things that make you go to sleep with a smile on your face and wake up with a smile on your face.

16:48And when you do that, when your light is on, I guarantee you everything else in life becomes better, you know? And that's, That's ultimately the best strategy that we could use in life. But you say don't do this to try and find a partner. Do this so you can be your best self. So it's almost shifting focus on what the aim is. Even if you are single and desperate to find love, create this social capital and do things that light you up for you. For you. Bronnie Ware wrote of... I love her. Oh, my God. She's been on the podcast. Has she been on the podcast? I love her. Oh, my gosh. I love her so much.

17:26You know, I adore her. I love her more. I don't know. I may love her more. I think I love her more, right? But yeah, incredible, right? Incredible book. Incredible on her experiences and that last 12 weeks of people living. And one of those five lessons that she talked about was just essentially people saying, you know, I just wish I was happier. Yeah. Think about that. I have been, you know, I don't want to go way deep on this, but I'm curious too about your experiences. I've been at the deathbed of two people who have, I have been talking to them. They were in the hospital and then within 24 hours, they died.

18:12And they both said the same thing. They said, life goes by quick. and they think about their most intimate relationships and they wish that they could have just done more or been more present for them or, and, and, and they're talking about how I just wish I was, I was happier. I was more content with my interactions with them. Think about that. These are two people who in their last moments of being on this earth, this is what they said. And so I I think we have to take that information that Bronnie's writing about, this anecdotal that I observed, is that ultimately we do manage our own happiness.

18:56We manage it. There's lots of things happening in this world that do impact our happiness without a doubt, right? Certain people, we are born in certain areas where it is incredibly hard to find happiness, incredibly hard. but we can still manage what we have. You know, there is Carol Riff. Carol Riff is someone who doesn't get enough credit and she doesn't have enough exposure, I don't think. She's a researcher. Carol Riff, in the 1980s, she researched all of the top theologians on happiness. She looked at Eric Erickson. She looked at Maslow. She looked at Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning.

19:39She looked at Aristotle. She looked at all these folks. And she came up with what she considered to be the six dimensions of psychological well-being. So in essence, she's saying that we all want to be flourishing, right? Eudaimonic, that's what Aristotle says. We all want to be happy. We all want to be happy. No matter how much of a psychopath you are, you still want to be happy, right? We all want this. But how do we get this? So she studied all these greats and she came up with the six areas for us to get that. One of those areas is environmental mastery, right? Is in feeling like, okay, where I am, wherever I am in the world, I can make this situation work.

20:26You know, so environmental mastery is one. Another one is personal growth, right? So feeling like you are growing, you are evolving. Another one is having inspiration, having a destination that you feel like you're going to. This is very important. Another one is relationship with people, right? And I was going to say friends, but it's relationship because we're social creatures. So having the relationship. Another one is autonomy, feeling like we have some control, right, over our time. And then the last is self-acceptance. and that is I think much more powerful than self-compassion or or self-worth because that's saying I know what my demons are and I'm okay with it you know so if you have all of these or you're on the pathway to developing these according to to Carol Riff you are on the path to being your best self and that's ultimately what we want and that doesn't mean you have to have a romantic partner to get any of those things but often we do it back to front we think when I have the partner and we're happily together, then I'll feel okay.

21:35We're waiting for someone else to come and fix us or fill the hole. But you're actually saying, and this is again data-led, do the work first. I'm sure you don't have to get to a point of completion where you're like, I am a complete soul who has self-acceptance and has full autonomy. But to be doing the work will certainly help you get to a place where you can hopefully meet the right person. You said something a minute ago, and I'm very intrigued about this. it's probably a newer concept, a sort of modernized concept, that we have a soulmate. There is one person out there who is right for us.

22:08What do you think about that? Garbage. I'm sorry, I'm in the UK. That would be rubbish. We can translate garbage, it's fine. Trash. Trash. Yeah, you're the New Yorker, you know. Trash. Get that trash out of here. Yeah, I don't buy it. I think soulmates, if soulmates are created, I don't think they're found. You know, I think it takes time. You know, Michelangelo, he created this thing called the Michelangelo effect, right? Which was, he's not going to look at the stone and say, all right, what I'm going to do is I'm going to carve this incredible statue. He'd look at the stone and say, I'm going to unleash this incredible piece of art that's in this rock that's what i'm going to do i'm going to unleash it i think what we end up doing is we find partners that help us to unleash our best self it doesn't mean we can't get there without the partner but it does mean that if you do have a strong partner they can help to carve that stone faster you know what i mean so i think it's it's it's created and not found so you know that alludes to relationships have to involve work it can't just be we fall in love and then everything we live happily ever after and everything's absolutely plain sailing and you've been in a very long-term relationship they require work and it's interesting because even if you look at married at first sight you get people coming to the table with a list as long as your arm of these specifications down to shoes and accent and job specifications etc is that helpful to come with a big list or should we work on that connection and work on finding those points of interests that we're that we're compatible in when i was matchmaking in the states someone came to me a client came to me, she had a spreadsheet, a spreadsheet, a spreadsheet of what she wanted in a partner, 150 items.

24:14Good feet was on the list. And not only was good feet on the list, but she had photos of this is what good feet. And I was like, I definitely don't have good feet. I can tell based on these photos, I don't have good feet. Right. She, and that's no exaggeration. That's the level of detail that some people have gone through in creating their list of desires. And I think it's because we hear all the time through social media, you know, you need to have standards, standards have standards, but standards doesn't mean you have a list of 150 items with, with photographs of good feet on it. You know what I mean?

24:52And so whenever I see a list like that, I know this is going to be someone who we're going to have to work with, you know, because the opposite of that is someone who is open-minded. You know, Carol DeWick wrote a phenomenal book called Mindset. And in the book, she basically says that we all fall within one of two categories, depending on the scenario. We either have an open mindset or a closed mindset. A closed mindset is someone who has a long list like this because they believe that I can only work with these 150 items. That's a closed mindset. and open mindset says you know what whatever you bring to the table we can work with that is where you want to go that you want to be in in in that space and you could surprise yourself you may like bunions bunions might be sexy to somebody seriously i mean i'm imagining that dating apps have really heightened this way of thinking and obviously you work with tinder so you're an advocate for apps and they I've got so many friends now who are happily married having met somebody on an app and it's the most beautiful beautiful thing I do think you have to be open minded to even step into that sort of territory yet the double-edged sword of apps I guess is everything is so visual and you're looking at these pictures which are kind of best snaps of somebody's life and your initiation into whether you like them or not is purely based on photo evidence what are your thoughts around that yeah i mean i'm with you i think that we have always been highly visual right so uh even if you think of let's say the 1950s here in the uk and there was the dance halls for example you know you'd really pick the partner not based on what you heard you could hear what they were saying you wanted to see them not one exactly give me the hot one over there right so we we were always visual but what was lovely in those days is you got a chance to see someone actually dance and move and then you can interact with them.

26:56On the apps, you're seeing a very one-dimensional view of someone. And apps are trying their best to increase those dimensions by having more photos, by extending the bio, including video and sound and all these things. But it definitely has made an impact. I think that social media has made an even larger impact on our focus on the visual, but some research. Hit me. I think you will love this. You will love this. Research states that the higher our self-esteem, the less we subscribe to traditional beauty standards. Interesting. And the more we like the quirks, the more we like what's different, right?

27:43So, and I find this to be the case all the time. You know, you'll see someone who is, you know, let's take, you know, you'll take a woman who she could, you know, she could get any man she wants in the world. Right. Heterosexual woman, any man that she wants in the world. Right. And then she picks someone who's like maybe a bit shorter or has different quirks. And you say, what? I don't get it. I don't understand. And I say, typically, you know what's behind that? She has high self-esteem. And she sees value in things that traditionally people may not because she's so self-assured that she doesn't feel like she's going to have any pressure coming to her from society because she values herself.

28:30So she's like, you know what? I like bunions. Or I like a man who's - The bunions keep coming. You're obsessed. I'm so upset. I have a fetish for bunions. It's your thing. No judgment. you don't like bunions you don't like i mean there's other things i prefer see that's how high my self-esteem is that i've cracked it that i love bunions you know um i don't know why i'm on this button it's like do you think it's possible to be unlucky in love all right explain that one for me though i think there are plenty of people out there and i've interacted with a ton of them friends of mine who say i'm just unlucky in love i don't meet anyone it always goes wrong and that's a narrative they've perhaps subscribed to that they are just unlucky in love is that possible all right in that context uh it reminds me of clients that we used to have at our agency right so we opened our agency in washington dc very uh transient community right So very few people were from D.C.

29:35Most people were coming from outside. But we would typically have a client who is roughly the same, roughly the same age, same career, just same traits. And one of them would talk about how they despised dating in Washington, D.C. It was the wickedest thing in the world because it's so transient and it's terrible. And the other person would say, oh, my God, I love dating in Washington, D.C. This is great. It's so transient. I can meet people from all over the world. this is great. And you would see that not only was the satisfaction in the dating different, but the outcome was different. The person who was excited about it and saw getting more dates, more quote unquote successful on the dates.

30:16So from that standpoint, can we be unlucky? Yeah, I think we could be in less than desirable circumstances, but oftentimes it's the story, It's the narrative that we tell ourselves. That is largely what is happening. Because when you look at the data, right? And I know I'm probably one of the few people looking at the data, but I often hear things like, oh, you know what? You know, men over 40 are not getting married. But you look at the actual number of people getting married in the percentages. And right now, roughly a third are over the age of 40 when they get married. So you're talking about if you're talking about the UK and or Europe or and or the US, you're talking about millions and millions and millions of men over the age of 40 who are getting married.

31:06The second most popular age on dating apps right now is 50s. 50s. Why? Why? Because you have a lot of empty nest syndrome happening where the children now are going off to school or leaving the home. A couple looks at each other and says, wow, we don't know each other anymore. They break up. They go back out on the dating scene. So to the point of unlucky, I could see, yeah, kind of, sort of, that could happen. You can maybe not have the right cards dealt to you. But largely, it is about the narrative that we tell ourselves. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

31:53Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

32:29Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in figs. Figs are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients.

33:04Figs moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. Figs gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. The other problem we have with modern day relationships is, you know, obviously throughout human evolution, we have seen great change in what a relationship means. So previously, relationships equaled survival. You were in a partnership to survive, hunter gatherer stuff, and then things slowly, slowly change. But I think really in the last 30, 40 years where women have become career women and just the dynamics are changing, we're coming to a relationship with a lot of expectations.

33:54And you say this in the book. We now want so much from a partner. It's not just about that support network. It's not just about survival. We want a best friend. We want a lover, a confidant, someone that we can perhaps have a hobby with, exercise with. We're looking for everything in a partner. Are we wrong to do so? Yeah. A lot of us are going to be unhappy as a result of that. I mean, just real talk. And then some of us are going to be more happy than ever. Right. And the reason for this is so Eli Finkel, who's a great, great marriage researcher out of New York, and he wrote a phenomenal book called The All or Nothing Marriage.

34:32Right. And he does a great job in breaking down what's happened over the years. So if you look at like humans, we've been here for 300 ,000 years, roughly. People will debate me on that. We will ignore them. Yeah. Right. So the first stage to what you're saying is he calls it the pragmatic stage. That's hunter gatherer all the way up until really the industrial revolution. So we're talking about 1800s. And then between the 1800s and 1960s, what you had is you had what was called the romantic period. This is where we began to say, okay, so pragmatic was about survival. That was it. Just how do I have a partner so that I could survive next week, next year?

35:14That was it. And you would most likely have sex every now and then with your partner. And that would be it. Like you would get intellectual stimulation, you would get friendship, you would get camaraderie, you get that from outside of your romantic partner. but then industrial revolution comes right we end up leaving our family right as a result right we have these nuclear families popping up and then you begin to say hold on for a second i'm i'm seeing you every day we should maybe be friends at least let's be sex let's have sex and be friends friends with benefits you know let's let's let's let's do that right but but that's where that's where it's it then grew into companionship that was that romantic period and then 1960s to your point things like the pill the dishwasher that really helped to break women free we're still living in the patriarch yeah no doubt but these were things that allowed women to have choice in their relationships and i think it's important just to step back and think about this just for one second is women only began to have choice in relationships since mid 1960s yeah I can see that with my own lineage like my grandmothers they were both you know stay at home they would have been called housewives back in the day but they were stay at home mums and it was that very traditional setup and I didn't really see either of them having much autonomy you know I can see with maybe this is like a lot but maybe one set of grandparents there was like genuine friendship and a lot of levity and laughter and but it still was very formatted that my grandfathers would go to work and the women were at home yes that's my grandparents that's not that long ago it's not that long ago right and a lot of us are have learned that behavior yeah you know but to your question of okay in that stage grandpa your grandfather and grandmother they probably were sourcing their happiness elsewhere from children, of course, their grandchild.

37:22Of course, right? But so now we've reached a point where this is called a self-expressive age, where we have said, OK, you know what? We want well-being. Many of us are privileged to the point where we now don't have to worry about those lower Maslow hierarchy of needs. We don't have to worry about food. We don't have to worry about shelter. Not everyone, but many of us. And so therefore, we don't have these lower level needs. What do we want? We want Maslow's high end needs. What was his highest need? He said, we want self-actualization. We want to feel like we meant something here on this planet and we want to flourish.

38:05So therefore, if that's our goal, right, then now in a partner, we're now looking for not the person who could protect us or we could protect ourselves. We could feed ourselves. Now we want a higher evolved person. We want someone who can help us to reach self-actualization. And that means that for many of us, we will have stronger relationships than ever, ever. But for most of us, we will have dissatisfied relationships. Eli Finkel talks about this. In his latest studies, he showed that right now, 80 % of marriages have lower satisfaction than they have historically. But 20 % of them have higher satisfaction than they ever have on the planet.

38:52And I think this is the reason why you're seeing the, should I say, the destruction of marriage. This is the reason why you're seeing so many different types of relationships forming. You know, let's have a ethical, non-monogamous, long-term committed, right? There's all these categories. and the reason why is because we're trying to figure out how do we get self-actualized how do we flourish but at the same time how do we still fit within this structure of the world and relationships well that's right because i think you know the other sort of stark contrast between this generation and again our grandparents generation was they stayed married whether they wanted to or not it was very taboo it did happen of course but it was too much more taboo to get a divorce whereas these days it is so commonplace and like you say you've got that 80 % of people who feel dissatisfied in a long-term relationship or a marriage, what do we do?

39:48What do we do? If you're in that 80 % and you're going, I'm dissatisfied, I'm not feeling self-actualized, I don't feel fulfilled, do you stick it out? Do you work harder at it? When do you know when enough's enough and you should break free and give up? Yeah, I mean, this is a great question. We need 10 hours. Oh God, we've got all the time in the world, I'm in no rush. All right. Kick back. All right. Here we go. I'd say the first is you have to identify what it is that you want. What is it that you want? So is that making a distinction between what you want versus what the world's telling us at the moment?

40:25Yes. Because that's noisy. Yes. What is it that you want? And so if you think back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, I think that's a good place. and it's held up over time, you know, is do you want to be self-actualized? I don't know why I'm having a hard time. Self-actualized. Like, I'm thinking of the bunions. That's what it is. The bunions. I got the bunions on my mind. Bunions. But do you want that? Because not everyone wants that. It could be a little bit lower because a little bit lower on his list was high self-esteem or love and belongingness, right? Maybe that's what you want. So you have to think about where, what's the goal?

41:05And then what does your partner want? And then is your partner willing to put the effort in? Because unfortunately, what we have is we have a lot of relationships where we have partners with different goals, different desires, and not the, you know, not having the drive to work towards the relationship. when I was couples counseling what I noticed nine times out of ten was you would have and it was typically in heterosexual relationships typically it's the wife who will say we're here because of me he doesn't want to be here and you could just look at him and he was like I don't want to be here why am I here right and he then proceeds to put in zero work in what's happening well you can't have a relationship like that I think this is very harsh to say but I think a relationship is either growing or it's dying.

41:59There's no in-between. There's no such thing as stagnation. You're never in chill mode in a relationship. You're either growing or it's dying. And so I think you have to do that work. You have to, so what is it that you want? What is it that your partner wants? Are you both willing to put the effort in? If the answer is no, then you have to ask yourself, does my personal satisfaction outweigh what the world is telling me to do? And a lot of people will say, well, Paul, I have children. And I'll say, you know what? If you are unhappy, I guarantee you your children know you're unhappy. And I guarantee you your children are learning your behaviors based on the interactions.

42:43So they're learning to maybe be anxious or avoidant. They're learning to hide their emotion. They're learning to not have standards. That's what you're teaching them. Even though you don't feel like they're picking it up. Oh no, no. Children are highly perceptive. So, so set those goals, but you have to do your best to make that decision. And I always say the worst thing in the world, because during, during a festive season, people will say, man, I don't want to be lonely. I don't want to be by myself. And I'll say the worst thing in the world is to actually be in a relationship and be lonely.

43:20Yeah. That's the worst thing in the world. Yeah, that's not great. And I guess a lot of that hangs in the balance due to lack of communication. Communication is key. You can't just ignore when there are problems or where there's an imbalance. It's all about communicating. If you notice there is a huge lack of communication in your partnership, how could you broach that with your partner? Well, one is you have to. You have to be a self-advocate for you and your legacy. You have to be. Second is how you approach it. I think context is very important. So I always say when you're trying to express something to your partner, perhaps it's better to express it outside of the house.

44:03If a lot of the animosity and the fighting and the arguments are happening inside the house, then go outside. Take a walk. when you're walking to the coffee shop, whatever it may be, discuss there. Another very, very effective technique. Very, very effective.

44:41with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams.

45:15Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout.

45:52That's wearfigs.com Code FIGSRX. Write a letter. Writing a letter is typically, a matter of fact, I've never seen it not be effective, right? And why? Because you, as the person who's holding this hurt, you have the ability to consciously think about it and spend your time writing out your feelings and your thoughts. And then you hand it over to your partner and your partner now has space to read. And your partner, because typically what ends up happening if you didn't have the letter and you just approach your partner, your partner is most likely not going to respond to you. They're going to react to you.

46:40A response is different. A response is considered. Right now you're responding to me. You're listening to what I'm saying. Do you have your notes over here? I see your notes, but. But, hold on, but. My little safety blanket. No, no, no. But, but. I see you are hearing what I'm saying. Yeah. And then you are interacting with what I'm saying. So you are responding. You're not reacting. What partners typically do is they're not responding. They're just saying, okay, I'm just gonna wait for her to finish because I'm going to go in and say this. Or it's a defense mechanism kicking in. A lot of that going on.

47:16Yeah. Yeah. And so the letter, a letter, I've never seen a letter not be effective. It's a very beautiful idea. I think I love that concept of there being time and space, something that seems often like a luxury these days. But in a tricky situation like that, I think it can really give both sides, both parties a chance to stop and think rather than, like you say, just firing thoughts and words off that could be actually even more destructive. Yes. If there are single people listening to this and maybe they've met someone on a dating app or they've perhaps old school met someone out and about at a party or through a friend and they feel that instant spark and they feel, you know, the big throws of lust and all that stuff going on.

47:58But then they learn that the other person is perhaps a commitment phobe. They don't want to be in something long term. You talk about this in the book, looking at some people instantly want long term. That's their goal. I know certainly for a lot of women my age, if they want to have children, they're thinking it's now or never. I need this to kick in now. I need to know that this person is in this for the long run. Then the other person might have just come out of a long term relationship or just really not want to be in a long term relationship at the moment. How do you navigate such a situation?

48:32Yeah, you don't. Really? You don't. So relationship goals, I think, is one of the most important pieces of early communication with a potential partner today. Because to your point where you're talking about your grandparents, there was only one goal when you dated or, you know, when you were courting someone back in the day. Marriage. That was it. There's no question. We're on this path to marriage. Now you're seeing someone, there are a hundred different options that you have. It doesn't have to be. And so therefore you have to clarify. I'm talking about clarify that the person wants the same goal as you.

49:14On Tinder, a feature, the most popular feature that was introduced about a year ago, relationship goals. So one of the first things you do is you get on and you say, okay, I'm looking for long term or I'm looking for short term or I'm looking for just tonight, like whatever it may be, but you identify precisely what it is that you want. Because if you enter a relationship with someone, let's look at short-term versus long-term, right? There is major differences in how we show up. If we're looking for a long-term partner versus a short-term partner, there's major differences in what we're looking for in a short-term partner versus a long-term partner.

49:51And there's major differences in what we will tolerate, whether we want a long-term or a short-term partner. Those bunions, can we tolerate them? That's what I'm saying. Long-term? Me? Yeah, I would tolerate them. We've learned so much about you today. My wife is going to be like, I don't have bunions. Poor wife. Can we just put that out there? Your wife does not have bunions. She does not have bunions. Although we have no judgment on bunions. And if you have bunions, celebrate them. That's right. And if you have bunions, I love you. That's what I'm saying. Correct. I love you. But yeah, so there's different things.

50:24So you have to have those goals right out the gate. Yeah. This is very important. There's other things that you should be looking at, but goals, very important. There seems to be a real dance around communicating in those early days. And oh, my God, I remember this in every circumstance where I've met somebody and I'm wondering, you know, I'm an impulsive person. I can be quite spontaneous. genius I was absolutely back in the day addicted to that feeling of meeting somebody new and the excitement and the roller coaster you know I wasn't looking at the data I certainly didn't see love as a science it was just chaotic and I loved it that was like the addiction for me was that first throes of lust and all those wonderful hormones that are flying around but I would then get into that territory there'll be so many people listening to this now and I can think of some of my friends that I've been texting very recently about this, where you don't quite know how to communicate with that person.

51:24Am I being too forward? Am I texting back too quickly? Should I let them text me and then wait for a day to keep them hanging on a little bit? There seems to be a lot of sort of game playing in the early stages of dating and relationships. Again, are there rules to this or is it a bespoke situation determined by who the other person is and maybe even attachment theory comes into play here. Yeah, absolutely. So attachment definitely comes into play, but there is a general rule of thumb, right? General rule of thumb. I was not taught this. Yeah. It's a bit late, but anyway. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

52:01And I'm willing to bet you probably did this. From what I know about you, I'm willing to bet that you probably did this. So when we were in the matchmaking agency, when we would set up a client on a date, we would give them strict rules. It's very strict, right? I'd say if you were if you were my client friend, I'd say, look, you're going to go out, you're going to do this coffee date. It's going to be no longer than 30 minutes. You're going to text me immediately at the end of the 30 minutes. And then I would tell the person that you're dating. I'd say, look, it's going to be 30 minutes. That's it.

52:30You're going to text me at the end. Now, 100 percent of the time, here's what would happen. If I got a text back at the end of 30 minutes and my client was like, Paul, yep, I did exactly what you said. Yep. We ended the date. It was 30 minutes. I knew that was not a match that was going to work. You know, the matches that work, you know what they did? They broke the rules. Yes. They broke the rules. They were like, I know Paul said 30 minutes, but forget him. We're going out. I love this. We're going out tonight to do blah, blah, blah, blah. They break the rules. When you are engaging with someone and you feel as if you have to play a game, you have to do this, you have to do that.

53:12you know what it's not there it's it's not there i'm so glad you're saying this that's exactly what me and jesse had he was the first person where i didn't play the game i didn't wait half an hour before i text back i just text back straight away yeah yeah wow yeah because you because because i think that's what um well technically the nerdy thing is is it you're in a state of limerence it's called limerence right where you kind of suspend all belief you're like i'm connected to this person you know so i don't have to abide by any rules out here so it's the rule breakers you know that that did it that's when my wife the first date i had with my wife the first date it was like eight hours it was like an eight hour date i love it we were supposed to go to the movie we went from from movies to to eating to to the beach to walk on like it was eight hours it's like break all the rules i love it yeah one thing i'd like to ask you being relatively new to the uk We're so glad you live here now.

54:10We love having you as part of our gang. I'm official. Can I say how much I love the UK? Oh, we're so glad to hear this. Oh, my gosh. I am in love. Like, the food. The food? That's surprising. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. Come on now. It's getting a bit better, but... No, no. The Scotch egg. Can I say... The Scotch egg. The Scotch egg. The Scotch egg is, I think, the greatest invention of all time. This is an unexpected turn in the conversation I did not see coming. The Scotch egg is. The Scotch egg. You don't like the Scotch egg. Wow. No, I do not like the Scotch egg. I really do not. When you're growing up in the UK, forced to eat them at picnics, you very quickly go off them.

54:54The Scotch egg. Really? Wow. This is like, it's art. The Scotch egg is art. Paul, I need to take you to some restaurants. I've got to get you out, mate. Okay, right. So we love the scotch eggs. Look, we are embracing you with both arms. We absolutely love you being in the UK. But I wonder if you saw a distinct difference in dating styles coming from the US to here or how people approach love. Yes. Yes. Several different things. I would say generally more rule abiding here. What's wrong with us? You know, on Tinder, we saw something really interesting is we looked at the amount of time that people took to respond after connecting, after, you know, swiping right, you know, on someone.

55:48So connecting with someone much longer here. And I think it's because of part of the conservative nature, you know, whereas in the U.S., we're like, let's do it tonight. Let's get together tonight. So that was part of it. also how quickly the couple took to set up a date much longer here. So it was three days in the United States. It was seven to 10 days here. So you think about that. That's part of, I think, the nuance of, of, of that, but the bigger difference is actually not based on nationality, but based on age. Right. So baby boomer, Gen X, millennial date, entirely different to Gen Z. So Gen Z in the UK is very similar to Gen Z in the US, date entirely different.

56:37And I love the way Gen Z is dating. Like Gen Z really, I think Gen Z is going to save dating, if you will, because it's just open. It's just like, I want to be authentic. One of the best pieces of data that I saw this year come out of this report that we wrote, right, called the Future of Dating Report is that Gen Z is the first generation to say, physical attraction is not the number one determinant to the second date now think about that my generation right we're like look do you look good yeah okay second date right yeah yeah gen z says you know do i feel like i could be my full self with you how brilliant that's brilliant right i feel like i could be my full self therefore let's do this it's not to say that they don't look at physical attraction because they do, but they're prioritizing other things.

57:29They're prioritizing authenticity. It's really healthy progress. Yes. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. Beautiful thing. God, Paul, this has been a joy. I've loved talking to you. I've learned so much. I mean, it's stuff, everything in this book and everything we've talked about today, stuff that I wish I'd learned in my twenties, I would have saved myself so much pain. I mean, part of that pain has made me who I am, sure, but it would have saved me a lot of pain and I think would have helped me date in a healthier way and actually have a bit more self-awareness about childhood and how that affects you, et cetera.

58:03I think it's deeply fascinating. I urge anyone, I mean, I'm giving your book to everyone that I know, single or otherwise, because it's just, it's absolutely packed and I'm so proud to publish it. And it's just been amazing to talk to you today. Thank you. Thank you. It's my honor. Thank you, Paul. Thank you. I'm going to show you mine. I actually have bunions. That's what it is. I'm coming out. I've got bunions, yeah. Oh, Paul, I cannot tell you how much me and the whole Happy Place team adored that chat. We're just like the new Paul Brunson fan club over here. I am so obsessed with the idea of social capital.

58:39That one really got me. Rather than looking for the one, do more of the things that light you up and you'll attract great people into your circle. I absolutely love it. And actually, as I said, it's massively motivated me to just get out there and do social things that I might think I can't be bothered to do. It's always interesting. You're always going to meet someone new. It could lead to something or someone else. It's exciting. It's a brilliant concept. Find Love will be published by Happy Place Books. Yes, on the 1st of February. Happy Place publishes books, but we also just read lots of books together too.

59:16so come and join us on Instagram. We're at Happy Place Book Club for loads of recommendations and chats about our favourite characters and plot lines. And listen, Paul mentioned so many brilliant sounding books too so we can all add those to our reading list as well. Last thing, if you haven't listened to the Happy Place episode with Bronnie Ware about the five regrets of the dying Paul mentioned, please do. Oh my gosh, it is the most thought-provoking conversation. Bronny is wonderful. All right, back next week. But in the meantime, the biggest thank you again to Paul, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you.

59:55I love you.

1:00:23Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

1:00:55Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.