Perrie Edwards: Friendship Break Ups, The Cost of Fame and Facing Criticism as a Working Mum

0:00Hello everyone, it's Fern Cotton here and this is Happy Place, the show that leans into the fact that all our brains work completely differently. Today, I'm chatting to Perry Edwards. I went to the hospital and they were like, what drugs have you taken? And I was like, nothing. I haven't taken anything. I'm a really good girl. I'm clean. I don't even drink alcohol hardly. But something's happening to my heart, like I'm going to die. And I was having a panic attack. I thought I was literally going insane. I even asked my mum if she was going to put me in a mental institute at one point. Like as soon as I feel the tingles in my neck and I feel the anxiety creeping in, I start panicking and then I spiral.

0:38It's hard to rationalise that because my adult just goes offline. And then it's just my little child self like, help me, help me. What is happening? To start things off, I'll just let you know that it's half term for my kids at the moment. So if you do hear someone shouting mum very loudly, that's what's going on there. I'm in a locked room. They'll probably be fighting over something. It could be something as banal as a biscuit. You never know. But I'll be juggling on anyway, do not worry So, today's episode Now this particular recording fell on a really strange and sad day Because we'd all woken up to the news that Liam Payne from One Direction had died Which was just horrendous And whether you knew him or didn't know him I didn't really know him, I maybe met him a handful of times Whether you knew him or not I don't think it really matters when someone that young dies in such a tragic way.

1:39It does really shake you. And obviously Perry did know him. So we touched on this at the start and it led to some really interesting conversation around the pressures of fame and the scrutiny of being the public eye and all sorts of stuff like that. So yeah, it was a really weird one, a really weird one. Now, you may well think that you know Perry as the super self-assured Little Mix member with those wild vocals. Oh, and three Brit Awards to her name as well. I mean, she's amazing. But behind the scenes, she's struggled with anxiety and low self-confidence, which might be a surprise if you've seen them on stage.

2:24They just look like the most confident humans ever, which again proves, and this is why I love doing this podcast, there is always so much going on behind the scenes that no one knows about. The comfort blanket of her bandmates was obviously taken away after they chose to pursue solo careers, and also she's become a mum recently, but now she is back with her debut single, Forget About Us. This chat is absolutely packed. I mean, we cover a hell of a lot of territory in this one. Do you know what I really liked talking about with Peri, panic attacks and anxiety, because it's obviously something I'm well versed in.

3:00Although at the moment, my anxiety is, I was going to say really good, meaning I haven't really got any at the moment, which is a bloody relief after years and years and years, but it's also down to me doing lots of work on it. So that was really great chatting about that in a really candid way. Like Perry's very honest about anxiety in this chat. I love that. We also talk and get very emotional about friendships and how important they are and God, you know, what a blessing they are. That was a really beautiful bit of the chat. And we also talk about first kisses, which was quite fun because I can't stop banging on about nobody wants this on Netflix.

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5:52Hello lovely Perry. Hello. How are you? I'm really good, how are you? I'm good, I haven't seen you for so long, in actual real life. Yeah, in actual real life it's been years. Do you think it's been years? It must be years. It must be years, it's got to be years. I haven't seen you for a long time. I always think I've seen people more recently because I'm looking at you on Instagram. Maybe. I haven't actually seen you. Yeah, I don't think we've seen each other in person for ages. Well, it's really good to be with you today. I've got so many things that I want to chat about. But obviously, it's a weird day to be doing this today.

6:23Yes. There is a very odd and sombre atmosphere in the air, an odd energy, because we all woke up to this awful news that Liam Payne died, which is, for everyone, just completely shocking and obviously unexpected. He was so young. Where's your head at? I think it just feels weird. It's just so sad. It's so heartbreaking. And my heart, honestly, hurts for his family, his friends, Cheryl, his little boy. It's just absolutely devastating. I can't even imagine how they must be feeling right now. I didn't think it was real when I read it. And then, yeah, it's a very weird space. And I think, yeah, like you said, it's in the air.

7:07Everyone can feel it. It's really sad. It is. And I mean, you know, you guys went through the exact same process with X Factor. I'm sure you must have spent a fair amount of time with the band back in the day. Yeah. I mean, us girls were messaging and I think like Leanne was like, it's very close to home. It's very like, yeah, our careers were very aligned. We had a relationship with them and yeah, it just it's it's honestly so sad. Like it made my body feel weird when I saw the headlines. I was like, that can't be real. Yeah, it shakes you up. It's just it's blimmin' awful. And yeah, I mean, all of our hearts go out to his family.

7:47It's an unthinkable thing to have to go through. I mean, whenever anyone hugely famous dies, I certainly question many things. yeah and I think one of the myths is still that fame fixes you in some way and I think part of me even as a kid growing up thought oh if I was perhaps well known I would feel a lot better about myself I think it's just one of those common sort of ideas that we assume that it fixes you in some way or it makes you feel more robust or perhaps more confident I think it does the absolute opposite I think yeah I agree that fame success is a different thing that's often a privilege and something really amazing to be on a roller coaster with but I think fame as its own little ecosystem yeah is treacherous I think it could be quite a traumatic thing to go through yeah and um you know obviously I don't know the details about Liam and obviously things are all still coming out now and it doesn't even have to be as extreme at looking at somebody dying but we can see the fallout with fame in so many different ways looking across the board with actors sports personalities musicians whoever it might be what do you think the cost of fame has been for you oh gosh I mean weirdly I bring my therapist with me so I'm on a journey with my anxiety at the minute and I have my therapist with me we were talking about the whole situation and I think it's really important for people to look at things humans like humans and say why did they get to this place why are they struggling so much what is it that causes them to feel this way in the public eye and I don't think there's enough consequences for people online I don't think there's enough consequences I don't think people in this industry are looked after enough I really don't because it's like they're put on a pedestal they get brought up and they're like this god or this amazing person and then everybody jumps on this bandwagon of like yeah let's tear them down and it's like a fun thing to do it's not fun like these people are human like they bleed the same they're the same as you and whoever's commenting all these things and I just think like what like one what do we do to change it like can we make rules with social media and stop all this like it's bullying isn't it it's like it's so savage like I can't bear it I don't look at it because it's very easy to fall into that hole where you're reading nothing but negative awful things and you're like what am I doing so wrong like why what is it and it's just bizarre but it's freedom of speech but then at the same time they're hurting people so it's really I think it's a really hard thing and I think like you said success is completely different to fame and I think success is lovely it's joyful it's like you're doing what you love and you're benefiting from it and you're like you get all these lovely things and it feels great but then the fame is like the awful side of it it's like the dark side of it that I think people don't really see and yeah I was the same I was like I want to be a famous pop star I want to sign autographs and everybody know who I am and I want to be a household name but you don't think of the things that come with that and it's hard and it's really intense but I think that's why I try and surround myself with as many people as I can that just make me feel good when I'm feeling crap and yeah like my therapist bless her I bring her with me to work sometimes because I literally can't cope with the panic attacks and stuff so yeah I think that's really sensible and it's um obviously something that you need to put in place so that you can deal with everything we've just talked about yourself out there being exposed to so many people who can say whatever the hell they want.

11:30And I do wonder if it's a very British thing that the rhetoric is, what have you got to moan about? You're a famous person. What have you got to moan about? And like you've just said, we're all humans. And yes, there are amazing perks of success. You haven't got there by accident. You've worked very hard. I'm not talking about just necessarily you, but whoever has reached a level of success has had to work really hard to get there. But the fame bit, that bothers me because I've certainly probably only felt, I don't know, negative emotions towards that side of my job. I don't love it. And people might go, why are you still doing it?

12:08No, I like the job. The job's ex. Yeah, it's hard to explain, isn't it? It's absolutely brilliant. But the fame bit, you feel so vulnerable at times. And I don't believe there's that much space to be able to say it because it is like, well, what have you got to fucking moan about? and actually but then how many times can you say it though because i think it's common sense but that's just me i think oh there's a person at the other side of this that's a human and they're gonna see this maybe and it might upset their day or even worse be traumatizing to them but that's like that's using your common sense so that's why i think why do these people think they can do it i guess because they just think oh i'm safe behind my protective screen and i don't have to but I'm like use your noggin use your brain be a decent human being and just keep your opinions to yourself I think some people genuinely don't care they yeah they don't and you're sort of dehumanized to the point of I don't care if that's impacting you or they just sort of don't believe that you will feel anything at all but I've certainly had I've had eras of my life luckily I'm not in it now yeah where I've conflated outside opinion with what I know about myself and I start to believe what they're saying is true.

13:19Yeah. And that's dangerous. It is. But I think if you've got it in your face a lot, you then would start believing it. You'd start questioning your own sanity. You'd be like, am I this person? Am I like this? But yeah, that's why I think it's really hard to differentiate being like normal day-to-day stuff with like an abnormal career. Yeah. I think it's like quite hard to find the balance. So you've got this therapist who is seemingly really working out for you. Yes. brilliant that you've got her with you when you need her because you shouldn't be having to deal with anxiety and suffering unnecessarily so so talk to me about this anxiety where where's that come from what was the catalyst for that it's it's random but it started a good few years ago when me and the girls were in Vegas so something happened and I just started experiencing like panic attacks out of nowhere and it was really scary and I thought I was dying at the time like I thought I was having a heart attack and then I went to the hospital and they were like what drugs have you taken and I was like nothing I haven't taken anything I'm a really good girl I'm clean I don't even drink alcohol hardly but something's happening to my heart like I'm gonna die and I was having a panic attack and then I flew home and from that point on they just kept occurring like all the time and I didn't know what was happening I thought I was literally going insane like I even asked my mom if she was going to put me in a mental institute at one point because it was so bad and I couldn't make sense of it all in my head but I think now it's almost like I'm at the stage where instead of trying to avoid the anxiety which I do like as soon as I feel the tingles in my neck and I feel the anxiety creeping in I start panicking and then I spiral whereas instead I'm trying to learn to like be with the feelings and be like okay why do I feel like this it's obviously something internal is trying to tell me it's protecting me from something whatever it is but in this moment like I'm safe and it's fine but it's hard to rationalize that because my adult just goes offline and then it's just my little child self like help me help me what is happening so I think like I said to my therapist I said look I love our sessions but it's really hard for me to take all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life so when the panic occurs I'm not thinking oh what what what do I have to do I'm just like help me like I just go off on one so now she's obviously coming with me to work to put it into action more so like great yeah because I just think if I'm not facing it head on I'm avoiding it I avoid it I don't leave the house unless I have to I avoid any situation where I might be in front of my anxiety and I just can't bear it I hate it so much so what might trigger it I mean I'm listening to you speak I I totally get this.

16:00Like I've been there. And what I'd like to say, I guess, to you is I've so been there to the point where I stopped doing TV, stopped doing radio. I'm still not doing TV. I don't feel like that's something I necessarily want to leap back into at this point. But I've gotten myself to a place maybe over the last seven years where I'm not having panic attacks. I probably had one in the last six months. maybe more. And I was having them all day, every day. And my anxiety has gone from being sky high to really not present in my everyday life. And how did you get there? Therapy. And having someone to really validate what I'd been through, what I felt because of the things I've been through the self-beliefs that I'd built up and to really go oh no I I understand why you would feel this way and just to have one person yeah say that to me was so powerful I felt so lucky that I have a therapist so lucky because it's just not the case for so many people out there and I have found it personally find the right person life-changing so you're in the thick of it now and I had people say this to me when I was in the thick of it like this isn't forever because I thought oh my life's this is it I will have to always watch my triggers and see where I'm at kind of walk on eggshells walk on eggshells and stop myself doing so many things and I still do have things that I won't do and I'd like to get to sleep's a real big one for me I'm very anxious about sleep still so that's still got to be tweaked But I am so far from where I was.

17:51Right. And that is absolutely possible for you with all of the hard work you're putting in place, which is so. I feel so much better now. Yeah, it's great. But I feel like my anxiety, like I know it sounds awful, but I feel like my anxiety and my panic had to get worse before it could get better. Yeah. And I don't know why, because obviously I've had this anxiety for years and I've suffered from panic attacks. And my fear is like the fear of being on my own and having a panic attack and maybe dying and no one being there to help me. So that's why I've like associated me being on my own with that.

18:24So there's always people around me. I always have family around me, friends around me, security with me. Like it's a thing. But I think that's because a lot of things have happened in my life as well. That's brought me to this, if that makes sense. So I think, yeah, having a therapy has helped me massively. And I've never put the physical things that I'm learning with her into practice. I've always just sat in a room and spoke about my feelings. I've gone back to my childhood and gone over traumas. And I'm like, how is this helping me get forward? That's what I struggled with. I've tried so many therapists.

18:55I've seen so many doctors. I've tried literally everything. Like there's nothing out there I haven't tried. But what I do with my therapist now, I just feel like it's the one thing that works for me because I'm having to step out my comfort zone and feel the anxiety, which is what I've been putting off for years. I'm like, I don't want to feel it. Just sign me out. I'm off. yeah literally get it away from me whereas now I'm like okay I'm I'm feeling it I'm feeling tingly I'm starting to go a bit numb but it's fine and then I'll do like my tapping and I'll tell myself like in this moment I'm safe and like I love a bit of rishi chocolate don't get me wrong it's lovely I love a healthy mushroom and I just think all these things I'm doing with her and like lifestyle changes and changing my diet and changing my outlook on things and like that there's just so much I can't even fit it into one podcast but there's so much I've learned from her and I'm so like appreciative of it like even getting to work today like it's like everything's a bit of a hurdle but I'm getting there and I feel so like yeah when I arrive in London it's so great because I think people will be surprised to hear this because we see you doing music videos and doing interviews and yeah and obviously because you're well rehearsed and practiced at doing interviews and you can, like me, I can put a switch on even if I'm having a fucking shit day.

20:12I can still do my job. People don't often get to see what's going on before you leave the house or how you're feeling getting in a car to come to London. You know, it's all of those small things that actually are really huge hurdles. So are there very specific triggers that bring this feeling on? You've said there that you like to have people around you, which again, I find fascinating because I'm the opposite. I am so anxious having lots of people around me because mine's all about judgment as well. So that's there's more risk that I'm going to be judged by people. If I'm on my own, I'm safe.

20:47I am safe. I'm good. I'm on my own. I'll keep pottering around. No one's judging me. I'm just on my own. So I'm the opposite. This is why it's such a fascinating topic because for everyone it's different. It is. And we kind of assume that, oh, OK, if you have panic attacks, these things happen. But it's different for everyone. So triggers, what things are going to make that tingly, horrible feeling occur? Oh, it sounds ridiculous because I even said this to my therapist. I'm like, put me on a stage in front of 100 ,000 people. I'm in my element. I will sing till the cows come home. I'm like, let me sing.

21:21You want another? Here's another. I love it. Like, I don't mind interviews. I don't mind TV. I don't mind anything where I have to use my talent and my whatever that is, my stage persona. I'm chill. But in my day-to-day life, just getting to the shops or going to, it's like I catastrophize the normal things, which I find bizarre. But it is strange. It's really strange and I don't know what it is. I don't find it strange. I wonder if it's something to do also with, because I get that. I get that. You know, like in this setting, I can have a really deep conversation with someone that I don't really know very well.

22:01Or sometimes I've never met them before. And I feel really safe. and really comfortable. But then in my everyday life, I probably wouldn't feel like that. And maybe it's because in our work life, there are some rules in place and we go, I know how this works. I put on the outfit and then I go on the stage and then I sing my song or whatever. It's almost a routine, isn't it, maybe? You know how it feels, you know how it works. But I guess it's the unpredictableness of you're just out and about being a human, doing everyday things. Anything could happen. It's wild. It makes sense to me. It does make sense.

22:32And I think also like what you said about you feel more comfortable being on your own but I just hate I hate despise the stigma attached to it because I feel like unfortunately now everybody has a little bit of anxiety or a little bit of panic or a little bit of something that makes them feel uneasy whether it's because of social media or the environment that they're in or school life or work life and I just think how are we still at a place where it's not acceptable to talk about it or be like hey it's actually pretty normal guys like it's not oh she must be nuts she must be no I'm absolutely fine I just don't like getting in a car all the way to London yeah like it's like little things like that but I'm like please can we just stop with the stereotypical craziness like just let it be and be like with it yeah like let people be open about it because the worst thing is people feeling like they're isolated and they can't discuss it with people like I sometimes still get embarrassed about it because I'm like it's embarrassing like I go to the farm with my partner and our little boy he's obsessed with this farm and we'd go to it like all the time whenever my partner's home from Turkey and some days I'll get in the car and I'll be like right Perry do not ruin this day for your family just grin and bear it and then I'll be looking at Alex while he's driving and then he just senses it straight away and he's like are you okay and I'm like no I'm not okay but then I'll have to be like you've got this and I have to tell myself you're absolutely safe you've got this you're having a lovely day and my therapist also says the things that we want the most and like the things that we really want to enjoy are on the other side of fear yeah so for me it's like getting over that little hurdle of like oh this doesn't feel safe it doesn't feel right I'm starting to feel a bit panicky the second I kind of live with the feelings I'm like it's okay everything's fine you're safe I do my tapping have a little bit of dark chalky and then I'll overcome it and when I'm there I have the best day ever I love spending time with my partner and my little boy like we do all kinds of things and I feel like I put it on a bit I have to be a bit more brave for the sake of him because I never let him see that I'm anxious or that I'm struggling so he just thinks it's like it's fine we're going at the farm everything's cool it's sort of like an anticipatory anxiety of what's to come I mean how much of that do you think is associated to being recognized and just you know people talking about you spotting you yeah I think sometimes that does come into play because I'm always like if I'm at the farm with my family and I have a panic attack it's like oh look that's that girl that was in that girl group the blonde one oh she's having a panic attack like that's what I think is what people are gonna assume they're gonna say about me and I'm like but that's just really silly because if it was me and I was at the farm and you were there I didn't know you and you started I'd be like is everything okay what can I do to help people would help but in my mind they're gonna point and like aha like why is that something that goes through my head yeah it's just wild but I think yeah I just I think we're so lucky to be in a position where we can have therapists that we've found that really work for us that we love the work that they do and I do think like I just wish everything was a lot more accessible to everybody who's gone through it oh god nobody knows where to look or where to turn I thought I was going to a mental institute seven eight years ago when it first started happening but this is it when you're in the thick of it you can't imagine that you'll ever ever see the other side of it I certainly couldn't I just thought oh I probably won't have a job now because I can't do all the things that I used to get paid to do now I can't I literally can't do them yeah and there there is so much life after it but it's an uncomfortable journey getting there it shouldn't stop you from going on that you know self-explorative journey of working out what is the other side of the anxiety it's probably the best thing I mean I'm in the thick of my 40s now and I've never felt so excited about what's possible and what I want to do and it feels really exciting but my 30s oh my god it was just a shit show there's some lovely moments but it was the anxiety ruled totally but yeah it's not forever and that is I think such an important thing for people to hear um you know I I used to hear people say it and I I felt inspired so I hope that that is the flavor of this conversation not like guys I'm through the other side no I love it so we don't know you know I might have another terrible patch in five ten years nobody knows I've got menopause coming so we'll see what happens there but yeah you know I think it's worth being in the moment and going at the moment I am not dealing with that and with the right things in place it's totally totally possible I mean do you feel like at the moment the anxiety is stopping you from doing anything that you'd like to do I feel like it was for a long time I feel like it like I say it had to almost get worse so it could get better it's like you know when you it sounds ridiculous but you know when you clean in a room and it looks like you're in the trenches and you're like and you want to give up and you're like why did I start this you're like I'm in the thick of it now I need to do something about it it's almost like that I feel like I was just plodding along with my anxiety and my panic disorder and all those things for like so many years it was just the norm and I feel like it had to take a big turn for me to be like right something needs to be done about this now I need to start figuring out the things that are going to help me have a happier easier anxiety-free life and I think that's where I'm at now so I feel more hopeful now than I was years ago because I can see how the right therapy and the right tactics and the right help can actually progress your life and you can actually get there so I think it's like just having that little glimmer of hope so you don't feel like you're just there stuck in the trenches on your own isolated yeah and you just see those little markers of progress it's really and it doesn't happen overnight does it it takes a while but like you said it's like you've got to go through the thick of it first it's like you've got to almost feel the uncomfortableness and be totally in like oh like this does not because of course everyone would rather avoid that yeah but i think feeling it and then not being scared of it is like the key and like you say normalizing it just like this is happening to millions of people all over the world like matt haig today put something on instagram saying oh hey guys you know I've just not been feeling great recently like nothing to worry about nothing like massively dramatic but I'm just not mentally been feeling well and I want to say that so that we just normalize this that yeah everybody has the propensity to have a day or a month or even a year where they feel really off and that that is normal due to like life and circumstance and everything that we're trying to process constantly it's normal but I really appreciate you talking about this not just on my podcast but just generally so I think the more people we see who go look I might look like a shiny pop star and you see my life on Instagram but this is also what's going on alongside all of that like yes there's the shiny bit but there's the very real bit too where it's I'm in the trenches here yeah it's hard yeah it's really hard it's really hard and then how so approaching your solo career now which you're really establishing beautifully How does that feel in terms of your mental health?

29:54Because it's a big change. It's a new chapter. You're out there on your own. You are like the sole custodian of everything you put out there and you're responsible for all of it. Does that feel daunting, exciting? It was like, I almost wish I could go back to the point where I was in the studio and I was making music and I was like, this is so exciting. What's going to come of it? Like, who knows what's around the corner? it was almost like the fear of the unknown I hate but also the excitement was like oh it was the build-up it was the suspense the anticipation and now that I'm in it I'm like wow I feel like even since Little Mix were a thing the industry's completely changed yeah like I find it bizarre like me and the girls message about it all the time we're like wait how what like it's so different I can't explain it we were just in such a routine and I think we had like a like a dynamic and a thing that just worked we knew what sound we were doing we'd make an album record it drop it to our it record an album drop it to our it like that's literally our lives for so many years but it's just not like that anymore i find it strange and i find people's like attention spans wild now like it's just like yeah so normally you tease a bit of your song and then you'd release it but everyone's just like i'm bored of it now i've heard it on tiktok about 50 times I'm like okay so you're happy with what you've heard just 30 seconds great why have I made a whole album of it but like but then the other side of it is there's so many people that appreciate what you're making and they just love your music and like my the song that I wrote about my anxiety it's helping so many people and so many people are reaching out being like this is great like it's what I needed and it's so honest and real and that's what I love about music like I love making the music I love performing the music and I love people connecting to the music the rest of it is just like extra noise really yeah it's full on and also I think with those changes in the music industry it now puts more onus on you as an individual back in the day you know you do all the big tv shows that were on a Saturday morning or top of the pops whatever you would do a signing at hmv with thousands of kids turning up yeah You know, you do, like you say, the touring and the promo schedule.

32:14Now it's like you've got to be a content creator and make all these bloody things on TikTok and Instagram. I mean, I even feel the pressure. I can't even use TikTok because I'm the generation above. I've missed it. I don't know what's going on. You need a degree. Christ, it's insane. And it's like, sorry, I've also, I'm trying to do the job job, like actually do the podcast and write books, whatever. So now I've got to make content so people know about that. What? Yeah. It's a whole other thing. It's a whole new animal. Like, it's wild. and I remember like me and the girls were messaging and it's so funny because you're like right I've got a song coming out it's time for promo and I was just gearing myself up being like right you know that promo week is intense you're here there you're everywhere it's a lot and I remember like all of us messaging each other when our first debut song came out we were like this is strange I feel like we should be doing something but then people are like promote yourself more on what babes on what tell me tvs that are out at the minute because the whole majority of the year there's none and then at the end of the year we get a few we get grim note and we get um like the odd few that are there still living and even they are saying how grateful they are that their show is still on tv because it's just not a thing anymore so i'm like promote myself where like on tiktok 24 7 and instagram and socials like i get it because it's such a monster it's a beast like socials are great when you use them in the right way but i'm like but i want to do a performance somewhere.

33:35I want to sing a song. Yeah. I don't know what's going on. No. It's just so, like, it's just weird. And also I'm not a trained video editor. Yes. And all of a sudden I'm so bad at socials. I'm so bad at it. And my team will be like, can you do this? And I'm like, right, how do I get the sound? And they're like, Perry, like, go on the trend and then click the sound. And I'm like, but where, where do I click? So they have to like, talk me through it. I'm like a little old lady. I don't know these things. But Little Mix were like, renowned for being bad at social media so now i've gone solo and having to do it all we're like what what do you mean do you know what's so lovely is it does seem like you're all really supportive of each other's solo careers yeah and that is so lovely no it's so important like we were messaging each other this morning like i'm not like with the the atmosphere in the air like leanne was messaging she was like i know i i feel like i'm gonna cry oh god it's all right babe i get you a tissue it's ridiculous um she was like in this crazy like world that we live in it's so nice known that we always have each other that like if things are going on because I feel like you can talk to people about it you can like say oh I'm having a rough day and this that and the other but the thing is with our skills is we just felt it the same like we did everything together we experienced everything together it's just like crazy and we feel so grateful because not many people understand what it is like and being at the other side of the phone for each other like even like recently when I was having my like worst times I messaged Leanne and she was like babe I'll come and see you like I'll come to you and I'm like I don't feel good at the minute like I want to see you but I don't want to come and see you I don't want to get in the car and drive all the way to your house and but like she like was like just let me know when you're free and I'll come to you I'll bring the girls over like we'll have a little play a day and like we just I just love that were always there for each other and like jade like was having a bit of a rough day today and like she was messaging i'm like oh babe it's it's shit but like we're here for you like if you need anything we're here and like leanne was like i just feel so blessed and so grateful that we still have each other so important i mean nobody else understands what you've been through no like those girls no nobody knows the lows that you had to hear and the shit that you had to put up with as well as the extreme highs which are inexplicable I mean I remember seeing you that really amazing performance you did when you opened the Brits and everyone was just like yeah oh my god this is it was such a perfect performance I remember it so clearly nobody will understand that high like those women no yeah nobody absolutely will get it yeah so what a gift to have them in your life I know I love it we literally used to eat sleep breathe each other like we were in each other's pockets 24 7 and for some people that might be like oh it's a bit much it's intense but we just loved it like and the only reason we partnered with is because we had so many things we wanted to try and we wanted to do different things but I think the fact that we will always have like our sisterhood and our friendship and like I love saying the girls do well like Jade's killing it Leanne's killing it like I'm such a fangirl and I know they're the same for me so it's just such a like nice feeling and then when things are hard and it's a bit dark and it's a bit scary, we can always be like, guys, what the hell?

36:53And then we can like relate to each other. So it's just, it is so nice and I feel so lucky. But yeah, Leanne sent me off this morning. She is so beautiful though. But yeah, I do love it. I feel so lucky. It's so important to me. It's so important. And there's a shorthand where you don't have to overly explain yourself. They get it. No, they just get it. They get it. We just have to text each other like, guys. And they're like, yeah, we know. They get it. We get it. It's so important. and I'm so glad you have that. Yeah, me too. Because I think that's the problem with solo artists who start as solo artists.

37:27It's a lonely place. It's all eyes on you. Yeah. You've got no one who really gets what you're going through. People are along with you on that journey but you've been through that with other people that understand every element of it and that's just a beautiful gift that you've got forever. I know. We always know we can go back together whenever and we've got each other. It's so nice. It's such a nice feeling. It's so lovely. I mean I heard you talk recently about the fact you know you haven't spoken to Jessie in a very long time I think those situations are so tricky and we've probably all been through it I certainly have with a friendship where it unlike a romantic relationship where there's sort of a language that we know works we go it's over we've broken up I'll probably never see you again but like if we bump into each other we'll be civil about it whatever with a friendship there is no language for that it just sort of happens and and it's all a bit it's like the loose ends aren't tied up it feels awkward maybe I mean when I've been through it I've sort of obsessed about those situations and if you should rectify them or not or just let them be and let there be space and I mean there isn't a right or wrong but where how do you feel about that I wrote a song about it and it's uh it's called simplest different view and it's about a friendship that I had that I no longer have anymore and I feel like I mentioned it in like an interview and so many people reached out to me and they were like why is it so like it's not really spoken about when you hear a heartbreak song it's about a relationship or a significant other that's like you've broken up unbreak my heart how am I going to live without you blah blah blah but when it's a friend like you don't really hear about it that much in music so I was like I'm going to write something about it because it's just as heartbreaking if not worse when you've been in that person's life for years and they've had your back and you've been through highs lows everything all these experiences and it's wild it's a wild ride but you're in it together and then poof they're gone that is hard to deal with like I struggled a lot with that and it was like I don't know and I just think it's really sad but at the same time these things sometimes happen and it does make you think like oh do we try and rectify the situation do we try this do we like do I reach out it doesn't feel like I should I feel like I should just stay away it's like it's a really horrible dynamic to be in but I think you know when you should reach out because I had that where I've had ones where I haven't and it's just drifted and you're like absolutely at peace with it yeah and then I had one friendship where there'd been just a moment of drifting and I felt so strongly to reach out and it's made my friendship with that person so much better because we've been through it and but but you have to know i think it's not worth the risk if you feel like it it's there's just so much risk involved yeah that will be received yeah and where it'll end up i think it's when you try and then it doesn't get taken well either you're like oh it's like another oh okay okay well i tried they don't want it that's fine you can't force somebody to be friends with you if they don't want to be friends with you they're not going to be friends but i think yeah it's it's really hard it is i think people don't talk about it because like with a romantic breakup people will go oh okay it just didn't work out like that's just part and parcel of being an adult with a friendship breakup the the sort of tone is more oh god i wonder what happened there what went what went on there for that to happen it's like it's the same as a romantic breakup It's just two people weren't aligned anymore and they're now not friends.

41:00It's no different. But there's all this sort of weird suspicion and speculation. It's like just two people who have drifted and that's fine. And a lot of people drift as well. So many people drift. We change, we grow at different rates and experience different things. And it's just such a strange one. Yeah, it is. It's such a strange one. It is strange.

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43:27And how are you finding, looking back on, in comparison, your career with Little Mix, where, you know, you started off as a teenager, now you're in your 30s. As you say, the industry's changed, but also your life has changed greatly. You have a partner, you have a three-year-old. When you're in Little Mix, you can just work 24-7 if you want. And I know how those pop bands were worked back in the day. And you literally did work 24-7. It was like you're up at two for makeup. You're going to four countries in a week. Like it's wild. Yes. I'm imagining you're at a place where you're making choices that work better for you now because you don't want to be doing 24-7 when you've got a three-year-old.

44:05Yeah. How is that juggle? I mean, I find it fucking impossible sometimes to be a parent and work. It's just wild. It is wild. How are you coping? I think when I think about it now if somebody put a little mixed schedule down in front of me I'd probably be like forget it like I ain't doing that there's no way I don't think I could I don't think I physically mentally could do it but I think because we were on such a roller coaster of just everything at once we would just ride in it and it felt normal and even though we look back on it now we're like how did we do that like it's wild we never like we'd go to America and we'd be on a different flight every other day and we'd not sleep and we wouldn't get any rest and we'd be like but we have to do it we have to prove ourselves we're a girl band and we're not taken seriously until we do and it was like we felt like we couldn't take our foot off the gas because then people would be like told you girl bands don't work and we were like so adamant that we were going to prove everybody wrong I think it was like the fire in our bellies and the hunger that we had that just kept like our adrenaline going but I think now stepping back Leanne's got two babies I've got a three-year-old and it I think it just puts life into perspective and you just see things from a different like I don't see the world the same anymore and I don't think I need to run myself into the ground to prove a point I'm just making music because I love it I love singing nothing other than my son and my partner nothing brings me that feeling of joy in my tummy that warms my soul like singing does so I'm like I'm doing this for the love of singing and I'm doing it because it makes me happy and it's exciting and it's thrilling and I love performing, but I also wanna be a mom and that's so important to me.

45:47And that's why I probably spent the first two years of Axl's life being like, I don't really even want to talk about anything other than making music. So I started slowly making music, being in the studio. My partner built a studio in the house, which was incredible. So I felt like I wasn't far from Axl. I was still doing bedtime, bath time. I didn't have the mum guilt, but I still get it now. Like he'll be like, mama, you picked me up from nursery. And I'm like, oh, mommy's at work. And he's like, why you have for work? And I'm like, because mommy has to work because mommy needs money to buy you things and clothes and all these things.

46:22It's very important that mommy and daddy have to work. And he's like, okay, you buy me presents? I'm like, sure. Whatever makes you happy with it. He's sussed it out already. Yeah, he's like, okay. he's like cool you buy me some bath bombs I'm like whatever you want I've made this work for me haven't I yeah I'm just gonna get mum to buy me stuff yeah yeah so he goes with it now and it like it is hard and it's awful and I hate saying goodbye to him and I hate like being away from him but at the same time I'm still me and I still want to have my thing which is singing and my passion as well as being a mum so I think yes the dynamic is different to what it would have been in Little Mix but it's a better dynamic for me right now and where I'm at in my life I needed balance I can't do all one or the other it needs to be a nice weighing scale it's such an interesting one because um and it's very obvious what I'm about to say but women are so much more harshly judged about making a decision like that we're very lucky that we both love our job so actually passion comes into it we're choosing on paper to like right now my kids broke up for half term unbelievably yesterday so I'm choosing on paper today to follow my passion as well as having a job and that's something that I feel as a woman with my grandparents my nans didn't get to go to work so I feel really strongly that I want to follow my path my vocation but passion comes into it I'm choosing my passion for this hour over spending time with my kids and it's never as clear-cut as yeah that's what I'm choosing today there's always going to be those feelings and those pulls of god I feel like I'm missing that and trying to get the balance but the judgment is huge nobody questions your partner going off to play football my partner going off to do whatever no one questions that oh they're choosing to do that over being with their children very rarely are they judged for that.

48:17And that's something that still irks me greatly. And often, probably all of the time, it's women making those judgments. It's not men going, well, why is she not with her kid? It's other women who are doing it. I think women can be, sadly, incredibly cruel to other women. And, you know, you and I have probably had those judgments about people over the years. I don't know. I'm sure we've all done it subconsciously. but I think that level of judgment still stops so many of us going is it okay for me to do this thing that I really want to do that I really want to follow yeah it's a tough one yeah it is hard you're right women do have it worse for sure because it's it's the mum guilt it's a thing that society's kind of told us that it's not okay to do you should be at home with your children you shouldn't be leaving them but at the same time yeah we've we're in this position where we can work which is great but i do i do hate the double standards thing oh it's wild i do hate it in a heteronormative partnership with kids if a if the dad goes to work the day off the kid's born now i'm back to an eyelid do you know what really bugs me go on hit me oh my biggest pet peeve is if we leave the kids aside okay whatever we get judged we get it's it's a different thing what really bugs me is if a man in the industry in a high place position in work whatever it is if he takes the day off and he's with the kids oh he's so special isn't he a great dad isn't he amazing oh he's so hands on with the kids and he's missed the the phrase hands on dad can cut right off I'm like what are you on about who has ever said you're such a hands on mum no one in the history of humans because we have to be because we bloody are yeah because we are because we have to be we don't get the choice it's like we've been made to that's your role that's that role but I can't bear it I'm like what where it like if I wanted to stay at home with Axel because he's probably what would all the men on the zoom call be oh you're such a great mom no they wouldn't be like why the hell are you at work get your ass out of the house and get to work yeah but when it's a man it's like double standards yet again and it really guts on my nerves yeah I get that one why are we still doing this in this day and age what is going on I mean there are certain countries and I don't want to state one because I'll get it wrong.

50:30I'm just going to throw out Sweden because they always seem to get things right. Where paternity leave is like a very, very normal thing. Yeah. And it could be six months. Sweden, if it's not you, soz. I think you're great anyway. Yeah, I still love you. But I feel like Sweden always get things right. Yeah, they do. In terms of just equality and being forward thinking. Everything. What are we doing? And a lot of that is just that horrible, sinister judgment that lurks outside of the actual opportunity of being able to go out and get a career. It's the judgment that I think holds so many women back from doing what they want to do.

51:08And it's not to say that we're not going to feel heart-wrenched that we're not with our kids at times. That balance is just so tricky and treacherous to get right. And there's no wrong or right. For every one of us, it's a different thing. We've got a different set-up or whatever. But it does seem for women like you can't win. You can't win. you really can't because I'm I'm the type of mum who like I hate leaving Axel I've still never left him for like a work trip or something I either take him with me with my mum yeah or I'll have to like figure it out where I travel in the day and come back like the thought of leaving him I find really difficult it sends me so like recently I went to Manchester for BBC breakfast stuff and like a fan event and I had to leave Axel overnight and that was huge for me like it was massive but I had to wait until it was bedtime I put him to bed said na-na and then I felt like when I traveled to Manchester and then I woke up the next day it was almost like I wasn't missing out on much yeah but it's like even that is wild because people are like but he's three you haven't left him yet I'm like no Diane I haven't like what's your problem like I literally think like you're so right and we will never win I could leave him for weeks and people be like oh she's tragic mother like why would she leave her child and do this that's just wrong or I can spend too much time with my child and I'm not working enough I'm not driven enough am I gonna look like that was another thing when I was pregnant I had several people on several occasions ask me oh do you think you'll still have the same ambition I beg your pardon I'm still me I'm growing a fucking human being in my room what are you doing like what are you doing because yes I'm gonna be ambitious of course i'm going to be ambitious i'm going to be even more ambitious because i want to give my child an incredible life and i want to prove to everybody who thinks i can't now that i've had a child that i can do it yes like what is that do you lose ambition when you lose it golf yeah exactly like fuck off do you know what i mean piss off just bugs me it's so annoying i so i really needed to have a chat yeah i could rant about it all day but that's the thing it's not from ranting we're just talking facts straight facts it's straight facts sadly you know sadly we we can't win we're screwed we are so we've just got to do what works for us what makes us happy that's all you can do if you've got the balance and you feel good you do you hun I think it's the absolute answer to so many of our queries like we had this chat with Olivia Atwood on the podcast um very recently and a lot of it was around cosmetic surgery and yeah again the judgment around it and should you or shouldn't you and if you do what does it mean and the the outcome again the solid conclusion is do what makes you happy do what makes you feel good like if it makes you feel good then what has it got to do with anyone else and if you don't want to do it age quietly like not quietly actually age loudly like i am age age naturally do what you want and be really happy about it and have your little 11 lines and everyone can fuck off like just do you that's all That's all we can do.

54:09It's so true. That's all we can do. I think it takes the heat off everything. And I don't know if you think that helps your anxiety, especially in the role that you're in where everything is scrutinised and everything is judged, that actually you can never really win. I think the hardest lesson I've had to learn over the last nearly three decades of being in the public eye over the years is that you cannot get everybody to like you. It is futile. And I've really tried. and it's impossible. There'll always be people that just don't get you and that's fine. It shouldn't mean anything about who you are as a person to yourself, but that's a hard one.

54:49Like, where are you at with that? Have you found peace with that? Yeah, I think I've had to doing the solo thing because I think when you're in a group, there's four of you or three of you and there's a dynamic and it's like, well, I like that one and I don't like whatever. Yeah, like you're a bag of sweets. I like that one. Yeah, I like that one. She's my favourite. but it's like okay but then when you're solo it's like you I have found that I've been trying to people please a lot and I'm like I want to make my label happy I want to follow their judgment because I trust their judgment in that they've been doing it for years and I'm new and I'm fresh out of the gate and I'm like a solo artist now and I'm putting so much faith and trust in people but I'm also reading the online critics and I'm reading my fans comments and I do want to people please a lot of the time that's my thing I'm like a bit of a people pleaser but I think one being with Alex has helped a lot in what way he's so to the point I honestly love that man with every inch of my bit if he had a zip I'd fucking crawl in it I'm obsessed with him and he has had to teach me to stand up for myself because I'm not good at it I hate confrontation I don't want to argue with people I don't want to even have out the the conversation I just don't want it I'd rather avoid it it's like my anxiety just pretend it's not there but he's like babe you have to stand up for yourself you're now a businesswoman you're now running the shore it's on you you tell people what you want what makes you happy and I'm like I couldn't he's like yes you can let me have the conversation then I'm like no imagine he's like let me talk to them for you then and I'm like no I'll do it myself and I've had to be in situations and meetings and hold my own and be a strong person which I'm really not good at it's out of my comfort zone but being with Alex has helped me so much he's like babe just do it like this therapy has helped me so much I love a shit sandwich it's my favorite thing you give them a compliment yeah you big them up you say what you do this is great you don't say but you say and and the shit bit I'm noticing the shit and then you add another little layer on top it's like it's a shit sandwich I love it it's like handling the confrontation I've had to really work on that especially being solo now because I would just be like jade you tell him leon you say something and i would just be like somebody say something and if i had to step up for the girls i would because what i think when you're trying to stand up for other people you have this like yes something comes over you and you're like i can handle this it's for them harder to advocate yourself because you just think people think i'm an arsehole again i think this is a female issue more so because if your partner was to stand up in a meeting and say i don't like this whatever i'd be like oh yeah he's man he's the want yeah whereas for us it's like who does she think she is having an opinion or something i mean it's not always like that but that's i think our you know inherent fear is that people are going to go what a fucking bitch yeah because you look at she thinks she knows everything and she's saying what she wants and then but i think it's also because we sort of doubt we've stopped trusting ourselves and actually we do know what's best for us we do know yeah what we want but how brilliant that he's such a great yeah encourager i love it it's so good i love that you're obsessed with him?

57:58I am. I honestly just stare at him sometimes and I think I hope he loves me how I love him. It's wild. I'm obsessed with him. Have you seen Nobody Wants This on Netflix? No, not yet. Is it good? Can you promise me that you'll watch it tonight? Okay, I'll watch it because I need something to watch. I just bored my whole team with this. I am so obsessed. There's the best kiss you've ever seen in your life in this show. And all my friends are picking it up and I hate when people big things up. So I was like I'm doing to you. I was like I'm not watching it. okay out of protest i'm not watching it and i thought i'll watch episode one i was like okay i quite like it episode two i was like really this kiss is so excellent in every way i don't want to ruin it for you but you will love it okay do you remember your first kiss with your partner yes was it amazing i just remember it being like you know that feeling and it feels it's like you know that the moment what happened i want to know i just well we're in a nightclub and he which sounds a bit you know whatever but I met my husband in a nightclub I loved it well we met on Ria yeah we met on there and then you went to a nightclub for your first date he was a bit he was he wasn't really as interested as I'd hoped so I was like right I'm gonna try something else I'll go down a different avenue he's not he's not into it so I thought right whatever and then fast forward like a few months I was in the studio with the girls and it was actually Jessie which she was like why don't you just get on Rio and I was like I'm not going on a dating app I'm not desperate because again I thought this is a bit desperado I don't want to do that because everyone's gonna see me on there and then the girls were like please can we just make you an account so we can see who's on there because it would be so funny yeah and I was like fine so they're making my profile they're like let's put this picture on let's do that let's do that so anyway fast forward a few years back in time the girls went to a game uh nfl or something yeah i don't know about sport i don't know about sports either sorry but they went to a game and i think it was basketballs involved and they went and when they got there i never went at the time and the girls went without me and he actually interviewed the girls but before he went to interviewed them he was like nudging everyone like it's the blonde one there it's the blonde one there it's perry there it's perry there because he fancied me and i wasn't there so he got there and he's like oh it's chill right okay i'll do it and at the time it was like that went by and then fast forward i'm on ria we're swiping through all these guys and he popped up and jesse was like oh my god girls it's that guy who interviewed us he's an interviewer and i was like oh was he nice like and i'm like but if he does interviews why is he wearing football kits the whole time me and the girls being so like not down with the football we were like maybe he just plays football as well so then jesse was like trust me i know your type he's so cute you'll like him match him and i was like fine so we matched on ria but like i said to you he wasn't that keen we like messaged like back and forth like maybe a few odd messages and it was nothing and it just like i wanted him to be like really into me and he wasn't so i thought well i'll pass then whatever not interested and then we were in europe and we were watching goggle box the charity stand up to cancer version and the england squad were on there and alex was one of the guys on there and he was like yeah and he was like giving it the big end and he was like really funny and he came across really sensitive and he was talking about his mom who sadly had breast cancer and i was just watching her thinking oh he seems really nice and then jesse was like message him right now and say when are you taking me for a drink and i was like don't be so ridiculous i'm not that forward i was like i'm ill just thinking about it oh it's so fun i love this yeah and she was like message him say when are you gonna take me for a drink and i was like really do you think i should just that's really hard yeah when are you gonna take me for a drink yeah like do you want to take me for a drink when should we go like when are you gonna take me out and i text him as we were taken off so i was like oh my god the whole time i was in the air i was like was it a It was a long flight.

1:01:59It wasn't that long. It was Germany. But it was still long enough for me to be working myself up into a frenzy. So I was getting a bit hot under the collar. I was like, oh, God, Jess, what if he doesn't reply? What if he's not into me? It's just embarrassing. I've just asked him to take me out. He might pie me off. She's like, he won't pie you off. So I messaged him saying, like, your Gogglebox episode was really cool. Like, do you want to go out for a drink or whatever? Do you want to take me out? And then he replied, like, yeah, it's a school night tonight, as in football. He was so focused on football.

1:02:26I could barely get him out the house. It was so annoying, but I was like, fair enough. You're good at your job. And eventually we met up and I just instantly, the second I seen him at Cirque Nightclub doorway, I knew he was mine. He was for me. I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. He was so handsome and he was dressed so nice and his hair was so nice. And I was just like, fuck, I love him. Fuck, but I was single for so long and everybody gave me the egg, everybody. Really? Everyone I dated, I was like, it's probably not going to go anywhere. It didn't seem like, like everything just seemed like really like just like, yeah, there, whatever.

1:03:06It didn't seem serious. And I was like, I'm going to be on my own forever. I'm never going to find anybody again. Like, this is it for me. Until you got to Cirque. And then I met him in Cirque and I was like, I love you. Well, I didn't say that. I said it in my head. And then he invited me to a gig. Like that night, nothing happened. You didn't even have a snog on the first night? No, nothing happened. Are you joking? How did you not kiss him on the first night? I really wanted to, but I was like, just don't, just don't. I wouldn't have been able to not. I fought it. He asked me to go home with him and I was like, no, thank you.

1:03:34You are amazing. I know. We talk about it now and it's actually hilarious because he didn't want to ask. His friend told him to ask. So anyway, it's just like, it's just like, the whole story is hilarious. But like fast forward, we just kind of like, I fell from really quickly, I think, because he was just so genuine and really lovely and just like funny as hell. He's the funniest person I've ever met in my life. Like he makes me cackle. like he's just brilliant how gorgeous he's just great I know that's beautiful I'm so happy for you thank you so lovely and one final question I want to ask yes where or what is your happy place oh gosh home same home is where the heart is on stage I feel happy when I'm on stage I feel very safe there and I feel very in control like I feel like I'm in control I've got this this is the this is my shit like it's fine and also when i'm with my partner and my family and my little boy i just yeah that's my happy place beautiful i've loved this chat thank you me too i really loved it it's felt really good i'm sweating in my hoodie but i felt great shower at home but i've just loved it perry and i wish you all the love and luck with your blossoming solo career thank you for being on happy place thank you for having me it's lovely

1:04:54oh perry i do you know what i would have liked to have done after that chat is take that chat to a restaurant with a margarita in hand and keep on going it i i feel like that was that sort of conversation where if we'd started having a couple of margaritas couple of margs we could have gone even deeper and like really bonded maybe i'll suggest it for a part two Peri's debut single, Forget About Us, is out now. And do keep an eye out for her debut solo album as well. Oh, she is perfecting it. She will not stop working on that album. By the way, I was right about Sweden getting parental leave right.

1:05:32They've even just introduced paid leave for grandparents. God bless you, Sweden. We love you. Anyway, two other members of Little Mix who have been on Happy Place, Leanne and Jessie. There'll be links to their episodes in the show notes if you're in a little mixed mood right now. Oh, also, Perry mentioned that she does tapping when she's feeling anxious. We had Poppy Delbridge on the show earlier in the year. That was such a popular New Year's episode. She is the tapping queen. So if you haven't really heard of tapping before, or maybe you've got anxiety and you'd like to know more about it, please listen to that episode because not only do we chat about it, but she does a little guided tap session within there.

1:06:14Not tap as in tap dancing, you'll see. Listen to the episode. It's brilliant. And also, a book that I'd love for you to read is November's Happy Place Book Club novel. It's by the incredible Leanne Moriarty. You know exactly who she is, I'm sure. She wrote Big Little Lies and Apples Never Fall. And her new one is called Here One Moment. Oh my God, it's good. It's so good. Listen, we're all so busy, aren't we? We're all caught up in her own lives. Well, in this book, there's the flight attendant working on her birthday, the mother struggling with her two kids, the nurse wondering what retirement will bring.

1:06:53All these people are strangers on their own journey on this flight, but they're all about to encounter an elderly woman who'll make a prediction that will tie herself to all of them. who is this woman oh my god this book is so incredible you are going to be so hooked come and read along with us we're on instagram at happy place book club if you were a fellow bookworm all right until next week a massive thank you again to perry to the producer anushka at happy place studios and to you i love you you brilliant lot

1:07:50so

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