Pete Doherty: “I was seen a wreck head!” The truth behind the headlines

0:00Hello, and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that asks the big questions about what it is to be human. Today I'm chatting to Pete Doherty. There's a lot of innocence and naivety to it, even with the drugs really, which I must have romanticised a lot to myself when I look back at it like that. You get this cloak, this force field where whatever it is you're thinking and concentrating on, you're supercharged. But it wasn't the be all and end all. You know what I mean? I was quite cautious really. even though like in those later days where I was seen as like this wreckhead and reckless it was never like that at first you know I was very wary and you know this was like unfamiliar terrain and it was always done in like a sacred way.

0:42How are you lovely people? I am my energy is low I am tired at the moment you know what it is I'm waking up at like five every morning I don't know I don't know why am I meant to be happy about that is it like one of those 5am life hack things I don't know. It's making me feel exhausted. I don't know if it's because it's lighter earlier or option B, I'm turning into my dad. I am now officially Mick Cotton, who I mocked for years for getting up early. I'd say like, oh my God, dad, have a lie in. What's wrong with you? I'm morphing into my dad. I can't lie in. It's literally impossible. And my kids are slightly lying in.

1:24They're at that age now. And I'm up at five. What is wrong with me? Anyway, I'm sure there'll be some of you nodding along vehemently saying me too. I've tried all the sleep hacks before you start telling me to put lavender spray on my pillow. I've tried it all. It's not working. Anyway, we troop on. We have things to do. Mainly right now, talk about Pete. Pete came into the studio, not on his own. Oh, no. He brought along his dog, Gladys. Gladys. She, my Gladys was a unit. it. Gladys was so glorious. He brought his dog Gladys in a few weeks ago. He's gearing up to release his fifth solo studio album, Felt Better Alive, in May, so not long now.

2:08And we were very lucky to get some time with him because he lives in beautiful rural France now. And we chat about the good that that's done him. Gladys was, quite frankly, the star of the day. She slept on the rug at our feet the entire time. You might hear her snuffling and certainly snoring because she had a loud snore. We talk about so much. We talk about stopping drinking and eating more healthily because Pete's been very open about his diabetes. We chat a lot about that and he's actually doing well, thank goodness. We reflect on the early days of the Libertines, which was so exciting for me because I was such a massive Libertines fan and I was hanging around in all the pubs and bars I were playing in, as was my brother Jamie, who is still a lifelong Libertines fan.

2:54So it was lovely to sort of reminisce about those days. We also talk about why he took drugs. I think we've still got such a problem with how we view people that have addiction problems. And actually, when you really root into why someone's walked down that path, it is so interesting. I'm very curious about that. So we talk about it a lot. Pete also brought a whole notebook, a fanzine of his writing with him. He's been typing on an actual typewriter and he read a lot of lovely poems in there, as well as a, how do I describe this? Hilariously chaotic short story. And let's just say if you're squeamish, prepare yourself.

3:49No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

4:26And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. No one knows your business better than you. So who better to create your website than, well, you? Wix's website builder puts it all in your hands. Create a beautiful website just by talking with AI, or choosing from thousands of templates. Customize every detail with simple drag-and-drop tools and get everything you need to start running business your way. Build more, think bigger, and do it all yourself on Wix.

5:08Go to Wix.com. Surprise! Beach day. No excuses. I'm in. Gimme five. With Bixolet Glide Razor, you'll have hydrated, smooth skin that's ready to go on the fly. No shave cream needed. You can prep, shave, and hydrate all in one step, thanks to moisture bars that hydrate your skin during and after shaving. Five flexible blades hug your skin for a close shave. Glide into smooth. It's your time to shine with Bixolet. Buy now at Amazon and Walmart. Ready! Your skin looks amazing. So smooth and beach ready. Let's go!

5:44All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:07Hello, Pete. Hello. You good? I'm all right, yeah. I'm all right. I've got a bit of a feet thing going on at the moment. Diabetes, toes. So the toes went really wrong. They went all, this is not very chic, but they went all black. And then they were going to have to come off. So I had to amend my diet and stop drinking. And yeah, they're kind of on the mend now. That's good. But in the meantime, I have to wear these orthopedic shoes. But if anyone's going to make them look cool, it's you. I don't know. I can see it behind their eyes when they say, oh, no, they're all right. When actually they just say, Pete, you're like a right dildo and you're some good issues.

6:47But you've gone for really good socks, so I think that's what you've got to focus on now is socks. Yeah, yeah, little victories, yeah. But that's really good. So your diet... Apart from that... You're good. Because I have to wash the toes. I'm all right, yeah, I'm good. How's the not drinking?

7:03It's all right. It's easier than I've found it in the past. Yeah. I mean, I'm letting myself have a drink. Once in a while, like once every 10 days, but something has shifted in me, that need, just that way I was before. It was just an integral part of everything. It's sort of faded a bit now. I don't know. Something has switched where it's just easier not to do it. Is that because you're feeling content? I've got a young baby at the moment as well, which is a 24-7 thing as well. and you just, you can't be munted really. It's not. You can't. It's not fun. It's not fair, no. It's also not fun when you're hung over dealing with any age of child.

7:45It's just not fun. Yeah, so just being there and alert for her. I am, yeah, I am content in some ways like that, domestic, quite quiet really. I live in the sticks in the country, the dogs and the baby and then obviously I have bursts of madness. You know, go on the road and do the shows. with the libertines or my own. But yeah, there seems to be a good pattern and I seem to be in a good place. That's so good to hear. I mean, we've got one of your dogs, Gladys, here with us today, who is so gorgeous. Look at her, honey-coloured babe. And you've come over from France, where you're living at the moment.

8:25You're meant to bring two dogs. You've got one here. We got stopped at the border. Me and my wife and the babby, Gladys and Zeus, who's the other dog. And there was a... There's some moving parts now. I'm not going to just blame Brexit, but it's so difficult now to get across the border and keep it on top of all the vaccines. And I won't go into detail. Maybe I will. So if you have the rabies vaccine in consecutive years on the same day, you don't have to have it for another five years. And we were a couple of days out from having it on the same day, two years in a row. What, nonsensical madness?

9:01Sort of. But then they said to us, we had a proper row with the lady. She said that people abandoned their dogs, so we had to prove. They wouldn't let us even go through. We had to prove that the dog wasn't being abandoned because apparently people, when they're told they can't take the dog through, a lot of them just leave on the motorway. Yeah. Who are these people? No, seeing people that abandon their kids or, I don't know, abandon hope. What? It's just what happens, isn't it? That's outrageous. I said to her, I said, oh, no, that never occurred to me. What a good idea. but she didn't see the funny side of that.

9:31Right. So it was all a bit upsetting that I had to leave my wife, baby and Zeus. So she's getting a train. We've got Gladys. Gladys is here, yeah. There is something so calming about having a dog or any animal around when having a conversation with someone. There's something energetic about it, which is just lovely. I feel instantly calm having Gladys in the room. I'm glad you brought Gladys. I did say that. It was since I've started taking her on the road as well. because when I play acoustic shows, she just sits on stage. It's not like with the Libertines where, you know what I mean, it's lots of noise and she doesn't like it so much.

10:08So venues that I've played for years where I've never really clicked with, say, I don't know, the local sound engineer, all of a sudden you're breaking down barriers just because, you know, this sound engineer who's always been like a grumpy arsehole is suddenly like rolling around the floor with Gladys. You know what I mean? It's so lovely. Telling her how much she hates people but loves dogs. and then he sees, for some reason, he sees me in a different light then and then I get a good sound for the first time. The middle of the tunnel. It wasn't the middle of the tunnel, but yeah. I'm not going to pinpoint any individuals here.

10:40We're just going to leave Gladys sort of slightly lightly snoring there. She can just chill out and relax while we're chatting. Is that her or is that you? No, look there. See, she's just snoring. Yeah, that'll get louder and louder as well. It's so lovely. It's making me feel sleepy. It's funny because I don't know. And how are you? I'm really good. I don't know if we've ever properly had a chat, which is so strange, because we were a similar age. When the Libertines broke onto the scene, I was very in the mix of that world. I was hanging out in Camden the whole time. I was doing radio and Top of the Pops, and I loved seeing you guys live.

11:15I saw you tons of times back in the day. I went to, I definitely remember one gig where, you know, infamously, you guys would be late, and I think I waited three hours in a venue. Traffic. Traffic, probably. traffic for you guys to come on. And then when you would, it would just be the whole room was at fever pitch waiting for you to get on the stage. And so it's lovely to now sort of see you all these years down the line and all the different iterations of your music and what you've done with your art. It feels like a really good time to talk to you about all of it. I mean, when you look back on those days where, I mean, you guys were.

11:51So you said Queen's Annoyer's era. I loved them. I actually copied Maraid's hair and dyed it black with a white bit at the front because I was so obsessed with her. And Tabitha, they were the coolest people. And Tom Frog, like all of that gang. I was so in love with Tabitha, don't I imagine? Yeah. I mean, they were the coolest people ever. I wanted to be even, you know, a centimetre as cool as them. I certainly wasn't. But I loved that whole era of music just felt electrifying. and there were so many brilliant artists around and bands doing really different things. Like it was a whole new sound and a whole new scene.

12:29And you were everywhere being dragged from pillar to post. It was obviously a time of great excess and pleasure seeking and chaos. When you look back on that era, what do you feel? I don't really see it as, when I look back, I'm not trying to be contrary. I don't really see things in terms of, because it's quite chaotic in my mind as well as a memory, I don't see it in terms of years, but sometimes I'll see a photograph or a snatch of song, and I'll feel exactly what I felt then, really, which is just, I suppose, the rush and madness of youth and being young and just full of dance moves, even crap ones, and energy and lust to see everything, do everything, and write and write and write, and it's weird, need we had to well i had to share it all you know i mean to share it all in song and i mean thank god there was no social media back then do you know what i mean because yeah it was just song lyrics that was really the only way to really put it out there i don't know i suppose i feel kind of joy and trying to work out in my mind what really happened and what didn't and yeah it's just this collage of joy i mean i could just like tabitha marae just do this weird stage diving thing where you know like the dance where you hold your nose and go like that yeah it's his dance they'd jump off the stage doing that you know even if there's no one to dive into so when we were doing the really small gigs in pubs and they'd be throwing themselves around and then you know over quite a short space of time months a year we were playing bigger places you know kentchtown forum and brixton academy and they'd be doing it there you know i mean and i was with my mates with carl and john and other mates in bands all in the melee, just chasing our dreams, realising our dreams sometimes.

14:21Yeah, good old knees up, really. Yeah. I mean, there's all this, there is quite heavy tragedy interlaced with it all, you know what I mean? But probably like all the best fairy stories, you need those moments of drama. Things are very rarely two-dimensional. They're very rarely one thing. I think we were pretty messed up. And in many ways then, you know, they've got proper definitions for it now, but there's a lot of sadness and anger in the songs. But for those brief moments, we were able to feel free and fulfilled. You know what I mean? That's what being a band gave us. You know what I mean?

15:06I see it now a little bit when I see Fontaine's DC videos. I don't really know them. I've met them once or twice, but I get the sense that they're pretty fucked up. I mean, they're pretty messed up, but they have these concentrated moments of joy and bringing people together with their music. You know what I mean? So you just sort of cross your fingers and hope that the roller coaster stays on track. But I suppose that's what it's like for all young people, isn't it? You know, unless you're, I don't know, unless you're secure in yourself and you've got an old head on young shoulders, you take risks and chances.

15:39and now I'm really just babbling. No, not at all. I mean, but it was the most indescribable time almost because like you say, there was all this joy, but there was also utter chaos as well. And a lot of it, you're inciting it. And I don't know if that was conscious or it was just an expression of how you guys were feeling or what you wanted an audience to feel. But of course, that extended offstage as well. And, you know, it was very well documented that you taking a lot of hard drugs at the time and that was extremely excessive. when you look back on that era and especially the drug taking can you get to the root of what that was was it purely fun and liberation or was were you trying to escape something escape your own mind or I don't know trying to get out of your own head to just be as free as possible I've always been very curious about drugs I'd let I mean I've been very not cusseted but a disciplined planned upbringing and army barracks and that and you know this this world of drugs and being about it was so alien it's so yeah she said she's like fucking hell it was so alien to me you know i mean this kid in army barracks uh reading the enemy and sort of picking up a guitar for the first time and this idea this mythologizing the self-mythologizing thing i i started at that age I just had to fulfill it and I think I was sold I was sold hook line on sinker on all the mythologies on everything you know from the from how you had to look to how you had to live and how you had to walk and which which I can understand to a lot of people seems well there is a superficiality to it and uh oh we'll leave it that a super was a belly a super a superficiality to the dog's bowels um but but for me it had to just turn me on I was just like it was like uh you know some fellow in pointed boots with bells on playing his pipe down the cobble streets of Hamelin and I was this little kid saying what is that sound I gotta follow it and do whatever he tells me to do it turned out it was Pan and he was going to Arcadia and it wasn't really I didn't want to dwell too much on what I was trying to escape it was more about what I was going to see and what I was going to feel and I think I thought a lot probably too much about the world around me and history and society and class and and I dabbled in in trying to you know attend things and and listen to people and I couldn't really get anything from it with music and poetry and film I got so much back you know I mean and in those moments yeah I did feel free but thought like I just it was it was it was my world I longed to be part of it and I longed to be in a band and create a band and go on a magic journey you know I was brought up on like but you know Bedknobs and Broomsticks and Mary Poppins and uh yeah and all those Disney films Robin Hood and Jungle Book where you go off maybe you go off into a dark world but it all comes shining through and you all come like singing singing out of the shadows in a massive joyous chorus I mean with all the animals and plants joining in and and it all turns out well you know what I mean and you fight the good fight and you're fighting for the right side you know I mean there's a lot of innocence and naivety to it even with the drugs really which I must have romanticized a lot to myself when I look back at it like that I mean you said specifically with heroin it sort of unlocked a door to another plane a portal that you were getting a lot from creatively and I'm sure just imagination wise you know you're you're stepping into a new realm is that something you know because there's there's the there's the ritual of the drug taking there's the escapism the liberation but if you're using it to drive creativity do you miss that can you recreate that without drugs I felt like I was never I mean you know I like to kick a football about and i liked i like i was quite a good runner but i was never like a super good athlete you know i mean probably like my dad my dad would have wanted if i if i could have been able to you know do back flips and front flips i probably would have done and i imagine that's the same sort of feeling that you get i think i was i found myself able to feel things and adjust to the world and balance myself like mentally and creatively in a way that I couldn't before.

20:14So my mind would adapt. So, you know, you take these things and I found my mind was suddenly in a different state of balance where I was able to receive and experience things like sensually, colors, sounds, and I was able to handle it. You know what I mean? It was, I felt like I was able to walk that tightrope, you know, physically. I can never walk a tightrope, but yeah, psychotropically, I felt I was starting to find myself like in a really interesting place. You know what I mean? I could just stand for hours on a flyover at Neesden watching the traffic with my little notebook and get lost in the moment, you know, and just wander off through London, you know, with my book and my guitar and write and dream.

21:01And the drugs never detracted from that. And if anything, day was the thing that was, you know, keeping me up. I mean, there's a lot of hours with drugs. You know what I mean? There's a lot of hours. You've got a lot of time and you get this cloak. You get this cloak, this force field where whatever it is you're thinking and concentrating on, you're supercharged on it. You know what I mean? But it wasn't the be all and end all. You know what I mean? I was quite cautious, really. Even though, like, in those later days where I was seen as, like, this wreckhead, reckless. it was never like that at first you know i was very wary and you know this was like unfamiliar terrain so it wasn't exactly microdosing but it kind of it kind of was in its way you know i mean it was like dipping my toe in making sure it was all right and it was always done in like a sacred way for me you know the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why Results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

22:05Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zinn is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zinn nicotine pouches.

22:41Reasons like Zinn nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. it's not rocket science grayscale has been educating investors on crypto for over a decade grayscale invest in your share of the future investing involves risk and possible loss of principle visit grayscale.com for more information dr india woods here as a veterinarian i demand a lot of my scrubs on the job that's why i show up in figs figs are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in.

23:27It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.

23:50So when do you think it became a problem? Were you cognizant of it being a problem? The body just tells you, doesn't it? You know what I mean? The body tells you that you've over-tipped the scales, that you're not balanced anymore. You know what I mean? I mean, a lot of people like that, they never come back. You know what I mean? You watch them go one by one. So that, physically, over time, your body just can't take it. Your veins, your skin, you just kill yourself. and with my family and people I was close to, Kyle and different relationships, my mum and dad, it just created this immediate barrier where they just couldn't be doing what they couldn't be asked of it.

24:36And so that became possible to balance and then I just had to make the decision, right, okay, now I have to go all in then. And then you enter different realms, you know, prison and crack houses and a whole different circle of friends, a whole different neighbourhood. I don't know, I mean, it wasn't, for me, looking back, it was not the be-all and end-all of everything. But now, like then, really, I'm just quite interested in the subject. You know what I mean? Sometimes, for me, just having the drug in my pocket was, you know, like the rigmarole and the endless murders you go through sometimes trying to get hold of the stuff.

25:15sometimes that ended up being more interesting than actually taking a drug. I don't know if that sounds daft. I think it's a really positive thing to be in a place with any situation that might have been troubling to you or something that you know has caused you issues, whether it's relationships or your body or whatever it might be, mental health, where you can be interested and curious in it rather than drowning in the aftershock of it. But that's where I feel I'm definitely at with certain things at this age, this point. I'm curious about it rather than, oh, my God, this is so terrible. It's so awful.

25:51This happened or so awful. This in the past. I'm interested. I'm interested in all of it. I think that's a really brilliant place to be. I think because I've been told that I'm an addict, you know, you get told time and time again in these different treatment centers that you've got a condition, you've got an illness called addiction where you can't in the end you can't just do it recreationally you can't you know do it once in a while so coming to terms of that was a bit of a shock to the system and that's taken me a while really and do you feel like that label is appropriate to you now then because I'm sure it felt maybe misaligned before if you weren't no it's it's spot on I don't know I'm not a doctor but if if addiction is a mental disease which probably you know probably in 50 years that's what it'll be seen yeah they won't they won't be locking people up no you know if it's make a crack they'll be I don't know it's quite a complicated subject isn't it but I think uh it's an illness the need to do that to yourself knowing the destruction you're causing and still sacrifice everything for it so so since you've made that decision that and I'm sure I think I've heard you say before your wife was pretty instrumental in giving you somewhat of an ultimatum to make these decisions and to get clarity with that what has that been like because if it was even if it wasn't the be all and end all it was obviously hugely wrapped up in your art who you were your personality that you were you know expressing to the public eye what's that been like losing that part of your lifestyle and your the rituals in your day and your life this is my with with me and katia it's it's just evolved over time our relationship and the closer we've got and the more time we spend together the less i've needed to do it i think when i was on my own more you know like when we were just friends or or before before we were living together i could i could see her and then go off and do my thing for a bit and i think the more we were together and she didn't use you know i mean and i've sort of just sort of somehow learned to live without it like reluctantly for a long time you know and just yeah well she just i think she just got to the point where we were in love and i i'm in love with her and she turned out she preferred me not on the drugs and i preferred it when when she liked me you know in and we'll try and build a life together you know were there moments of and this is you know obviously prevalent for all of us in different ways and we'll have different things that will trigger it but what have there been moments over the years whether you were drug taking or not of self-loathing creeping into play where it was either that was you know um brought on because of the drug taking or looking back at the past or i don't know regrets yeah it's self-loathing it's quite a heavy one i don't know about that but but embarrassment sometimes uh and fear i don't self i don't think self-loathing is necessarily i don't think it directly correlates to the event because i've self-loathed over fuck all like things that people would go why are you worrying about that and i have literally just dived into self-loathing i don't think it correlates i think it's more about it says more about you and how you perceive well it's your self-worth isn't it and what that derives from, I guess.

29:24Yeah. I'd probably be quite tentative about thinking about it too much. Probably I've got very little self-worth, really, and I think about what I've done to myself. I don't know. I'm ready to think about that. Maybe I'll get... You said you see a therapist. Yeah, yeah. I just don't think I'm ready to. Yeah? Yeah. It's changed my whole life. Really? Mm. I've done it on-off for years and years and years, but I found someone that I just really have clicked with in the last year. And yeah, I think especially when looking at self-worth, which I've by no means nailed. I don't think many people have.

30:01It's been completely vital in looking at that and, you know, working out who the hell I am outside of the bit that I want to show people and liking that bit of myself. And it's been really good. Really good. Have you ever done it? No, not on that one-to-one level with someone who you see regularly or talk to regularly. I think in the past when I've been in treatment centers, normally against my will, I've clicked with certain people, but I don't really get too much into it. It's easy to sort of breezily talk about the past or anecdotes, but actually getting into analyzing myself and talking about someone, I don't think I'm capable of it.

30:46I think I'm actually too fragile to do that. I think it would take me like, I think I'd just break down and it'd take me an hour to stop crying, you know what I mean? And then it'd be years to put myself back together from that. Yeah. Yeah. It's doable though. I've done that. I've had a good old cry for hours and hours. Could be good. Yeah. I'm too busy at the moment. There's too many things. I've got this, like, you know, I've got the babby to look after and maybe when she's 16 or 17 I'll have a look at myself. I did loads of good stuff on the telly as well, you know what I mean? Just like re-watched Simpsons again and again rather than like...

31:25I mean, that's therapy in itself. I think if you're laughing at something, that's therapeutic. Would you say, I mean, we don't have to dive too deeply into this because you've just said that's, you know, it's a big deal, but today could you say you like yourself? I don't know. I find it difficult to talk about myself in the third person like that. To like or not like myself, I don't know. I would go about thinking like that. I don't know. I guess I'm intrigued because I think whenever anyone's had their work put out publicly, you know, I think you can start to dig around in how much of that is pure expression.

32:03I have to create. I have to make something. And how much of that is I need validation from other people. do you know that in terms of like the ratio in your own work over the years how much have you needed other people to say you're fucking great it starts off as something that you don't think about too much so it's like a burst of writing or or songwriting where something's pure and you haven't thought about analyzing it too much and then when you start moving into the studio and collaborating or putting things out then you start worrying more about what other people are going to I think. But in its purest form, like, so I've done a little fanzine.

32:46It doesn't necessarily call it a fanzine. It's a bit crap to do a fanzine about yourself. But I put a timewriter on the tour bus last year for the Libertines tour and I just left it there and got Carl and whoever to write stuff. Some of the things in there come over, like, what's this? So. Oh, you've woken up, Gladys. Hello, babes. Ah, when I wonder, my mind turns its darker wheeled. I set the sat-nav controls of the soul for the only place you ever called home. The place they couldn't gentrify, where the rents don't climb because you can't sublet the mind. It can't evict me from my own memory.

33:26Her melody is not a felony in the realms of infinity. New and unrushed patterns of progress, carrying jubilation in your once heavy heart. Welcoming the recognition of addiction, as a medical condition, an affliction, not a moral decision, to be given considered compassion, not facing conviction. Anxiety runs like an underground river of society and we're flooding and it's coming, like tsunami. Young minds today can't find their way through the digital wasteland. Social media feeding your frenzy, getting creepier, artificially deeper. The algorithm says you'll go to prison, suffer from the crash course collision, the conviction acts with well practice precision, like a sick man already in hell in a cell and you think he's going to get well.

34:12You don't need peer-reviewed research to teach us that the system acts like a fist when it could be a healing hand. I love that. This is nice. I don't know who wrote it. I don't know if this was Carl. Did you write that last one? That last one I did, yeah. I love that. I listened to this. To feel a clown in a field of entertainers who paint their face a certain way. To cheers ambiguities and favour a brick that's broken over one that holds the fort. Breaking bird feed, rotten planks and other various items of crap. To look at receding hairlines with impulse to slobber over gleaming yellow teeth and muddy trousers.

34:49Embracing him there, down a bit, to the left of the table, looking disgusted at the sun for being so warm. Attempting all you can at flattery to win over the cockroaches in your water aligning your best suit stupidest shoes and worst shirt in harmony not being able to quite reach the bit needed to disguise the fact you can't grow a beard splash aftershave enough you're already itchy a corduroy sofa left for collection that might be okay after a thorough boil fb auto-corrected to fat bastard as a term of endearment that's fucking great i love that I love it. That's darkness, and about the beard as well, that was like.

35:31I love this because it's, I mean, again, I believe writing is a therapy of sorts and something that we can all do. We can all wake up and we can just write down what's going on in our heads, whether it's poetry or just something that is spinning around our minds. It's really therapeutic to do that. I love it, and I love reading. I love reading poetry, but I love reading. So I've got an address here. It's the Rayon Vert. hotel in Etchatar and anyone who's got any poetry, short stories, lyrics or anything, they can send it to the Onstrap fans. That's the idea. That's what I'm trying to... But I love that and it's old school.

36:09We're using post. Let's do this. Let's get a stamp out. Well, I keep losing my phone so I don't have a phone anymore. I just do it on the mirror. It is. It's so beautiful and because I want to talk to you about this because... That's for you and your head. Oh my God, thank you. I love that. That's so cool. I'll send you a poem. I'll be... Yeah? I love writing poetry. I'll hold you to that. I write poetry all the time. It is, again, like writing, poetry, painting. I'm big into art. I paint portraits. Looking at your work over the years and how prolific you've been, whether it is songwriting. Can I hear one of your poems?

36:40I haven't got one on me now, and I definitely can't remember them, but I'm going to post you one. I'm going to do it. I'll show you my paintings on my phone. I love painting. And I think it feels, for me, looking from the outside, art without this sounding completely wanky but art feels like for you it's a matter of survival like you've got to create you've got to do this whether it's song or poetry or drawing sketching would you say that we have to don't we we do mankind has to mankind humankind but we've forgotten that collectively i think but we have bursts of remembrance you know it's like when you see the love that idea then who is socrates or plato but the idea of the shadows at the back of the cave i've always been hypnotized about the image you know you get these paleolithic or neolithic cave paintings you know where someone's got the blood of an animal yeah and just in this in this cave well you know the hunters have come back putting the meat on the fire and the tribes there and someone's splashing you know for the first time someone's splashing images up on the wall of an ox or a man with an arrow.

37:51And you can imagine those children, you know, probably before language, looking up, seeing that. And it's the same today. It's the same for children today, you know what I mean? The child's imagination, you know, it's still there in all of it. I mean, you get to flex that muscle a lot because that's driving you to then write albums, to tour, to keep creating and keep making your music, what would you say is driving it today? Does it differ from writing that first Libertines album? What's driving those lyrics? What's inspiring you and getting you feel buzzed up to write stuff? It's getting me buzzed up to write stuff.

38:31Or even like with the album that you're... You don't even think about it really. It's just something needs to be said or sung, you know, and it feels right and you don't mind singing it again. I like to hear people sing as well. I love communal singing, that's what it is, communal singing, communal dancing, really. Just that movement and, you know, all that morphing, bodies morphing. Or, you know, just people sat down listening, tapping their foot, that's cool too. Yeah, people coming together, anything, you know, football crowds, music crowds, markets. I guess I could... When I told my dad that I was interviewing you, he was like, oh, you must tell him that I'm a QPR fan.

39:16And I was like, I will. My dad was born in that area, so he was literally next door to QPR. So yeah, my brother, they're all QPR fans. West London boy. Yeah, I was like, don't worry, I'll tell him, Dad. Oh, right. So in that little piece you wrote that you just read out, which is so beautiful, you touch on anxiety, and obviously that was referenced in a sort of collective sense that we're all sort of, there's this undercurrent of anxiety and it's ramped up daily by everything that we're imbibing, news, social media, etc. Where's your anxiety at? This is the weird thing. I sort of evaded your question before about what gets me buzzed up because, and this is the dilemma I'm in, which I didn't really want to answer honestly, but I have this habit, really bad habit of telling the truth.

40:03And that is that when I was taking drugs and I was in those moments, especially alone with a guitar, in that fevered state often it would lead to extreme you know surges of anxiety you know wouldn't necessarily last but and they were the moments that always created this like so that fuck this is it i'm going i've got to write a brilliant song right now i'm going as in i'm gonna die yeah this is right there's no way forward now that i can't i can't walk this tyrant anymore and then i'd have to do something i'd have to write something so beautiful and perfect that just for myself and then I'd make it through to the other side you know I mean the heart would slow down and the drugs are gone and I've got this song and you know that would happen a lot um and then you end up building whole whole albums around those you know two or three weird intense moments that then you can build on or inspire someone else to write a riff or different lyrics and without that I might have asked really about writing a song I mean I love music and I've always loved playing music but that need to write and create it was unfuelled by the anxiety and darkness now it wasn't always the drugs that created that you know I mean as a as a young man sort of teens and 20s I was pretty melancholy anyway and angry in a lot of ways but those you know those fevered states of anxiety were just as common as psychedelic bliss you know what i mean and being being by you know the canal little venice with an acoustic guitar writer a melodic folk song like so it was a real strange back and forth you know i mean so i don't know where it's going to come from actually the next thing might just try and write a radio play or something.

41:59I've always wanted to do that. Do it. I'd love that. That'd be great. Like the new Archers. But they always, I tried writing one in here, but it's, they end up really silly and vulgar. Like, there's a short story I wrote. It's really stupid, but. You're selling it to me already. That's why, that's why I've put it in here. I'm intrigued. That's why I put it in here in such small type because it's just, so you can imagine someone reading this. First of all, they'd have to, they'd have to be able to read the text. I can't read that. Half a cider, mister. Paula put her thumbs up meaninglessly and immediately the few customers in McNamara's knew from the decisively peculiar way she spoke and moved her hands that there was trouble with this lass.

42:40There was at first tremendous excitement in the glass, a rapid explosion of froth and bubbly effervescence. It seemed to want to spill over and need some mopping up, but all at once, with a slight change in the pitch of the fizz, the cider relented and the breaker collapsed inside the beaker. Paula's wide eyes looked at the glass And looked and sat and looked The cider bubbled a while And Paula sat and the cider bubbled And Paula sat Three pounds fifty, me love The barman brushed breadcrumbs from his chin Eye level, Paula looked long at the rim of the vessel In a squint, she was a tiny muddled boat Adrift in a bubble In a bubble in an increasingly flat sea I am not your love She grunted in measured sullen breaths.

43:29Measured sullen breaths, so that would be more. I am not your love, she grunted in measured sullen breaths. That's not what you grunt, I would say. I am not your love, she grunted in measured sullen breaths. The barman flicked one last crusty loaf lingering and lent into his response, which he delivered humorlessly but with a broad, gap-toothed smile. but it's still 350. She farted with petulance and malevolent intent and a tall man with a small head looked up from his crossword and tried to subvert a giggle. Ah Jesus Macca won't you be having enough of that for fuck's sake. He swirled down the last swallow of sloppy Guinness and he moved into the snug and resumed his crossword.

44:14Paula looked around with an air of someone who has realised something of great importance she needed to share. I'd suck anyone's dick to bite it off if you can pay for me cider. She cackled loudly, farting again. A young couple heavily into a bottle of cheap wine burst into the kind of laughter that acts like a virus and Paula soon joined in. So too for the barman, though reluctantly. Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon door... Anyway, yeah, it goes on like that a bit. I love Paula. I'm already invested in what's going to happen to Paula. She shits herself. And then the guy doing the crossword went, ah, that's it.

44:51He filled in his crossword, it was, yeah, the crossword clue was diarrhoea, yeah. Oh, no, hang on. There's another guy that comes in. All right. Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon doors opened and in stepped a small, large-headed chap in a two-piece lime-green Adidas tracksuit with green Adidas samba sports shoes on. On the back of his bonce was perched a small pork pie hat. The barman composed himself and nodded hello. Marco, you terrible arsehole. What's all they laughing for? Never mind. Good luck to you anyway. I'm smiling. And it's drinks all round. Come on now. He waved his credit card in the air and jested to the shelves of drinks.

45:25Not for me, thanks, sweetness, said Paula. This cider gives you the city squirts. The barman protested. You've not even touched a drop. She never touched a drop of that cider. It's not the cider. Well, it looks bad enough, that's sure enough, bellowed the green chap. Paula dropped four euro pieces in the pot of cider and smiled. Chiro! She waved and left the pub, walking like she was Saddlesore with yellow shit streaming down the inside of her white sights. Beneath a denim skirt, the green man didn't see the shit stains trickily. He smiled to himself as she left and said to everyone, Whoa, she's fit as fuck, no?

46:01From the snug, the small-headed man exclaimed, That's it! D-I-A-R-H-E-A, gotcha. He filled in his crossword boxes with a contented smile. I mean, why are we not making that into a radio play is the question. Someone commissioned it now. I want to hear what happens next to Paula and her shitty knickers. I can see Paula's, you know, the Catherine Tate nurse. You know that nurse? Catherine Tate would nail that. Yeah. I like it. The face she does for the nurse, she's like, you're shitting me a little bitch. I love it. But I mean, I've heard you say you want to write a novel. You've got, you said you're not asked about writing.

46:37This is clearly something you need to do. This is clearly something you, it's pouring out of you. It's just time at the moment with the baby. because me and my missus are making, you know, everything's 50-50 and we're both there. And she starts school at the time, but at the moment, it's, you know what I mean? See, with the screens and that, it's so easy. You could just put cartoons on and she's gone, but Katya doesn't. She thinks that rots the baby's brain, do you know what I mean? Yeah, there's a fine balance for that one, isn't there? If they have too many screens. It's tricky. So it's all about basically just playing with her and if I could get her into listening to me writing stories, or play guitar we'd be away but you know what I mean she's just you'll get there yeah you'll get there with that the moment she's just like you know she's 20 months so you know I remember that era it was full on you got kids?

47:30yeah I've got a 12 year old and a 9 year old oh wow oh come on yeah but I remember that era of toddlers and you can't do anything can't and when they start walking then you're in deep trouble because you just have to keep an eye on them the whole time yeah The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert.

48:12That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

48:46Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

49:12for a close shave, glide into smooth. It's your time to shine with Bixolet. Buy now at Amazon and Walmart. Ready? Your skin looks amazing. So smooth and beach ready. Let's go.

49:26Do you know what I want to go back on? There's something so interesting about you saying, you know, you have these, or you would have had when on drugs, these bursts of extreme anxiety where your brain is maybe signaling, I'm going to die. I need to create something ASAP and you do it. and I've always wondered that about how much I you know I have a real drive to paint and to write books and to make stuff and I feel a bit flat and a bit blue if I don't constantly I have to have ideas write them down even if it's an interview feel like there's something tangible at the end of that process of thinking up the questions writing it down how it's and putting in a notepad pen paper really important to me and I wonder constantly with anyone who is you know we're all creative but anyone that is obsessed with creativity how much of that is driven by a very subterranean subconscious fear of dying and needing to leave something we we don't want to not exist we want to leave something behind do you think that plays a part in any of it even now you're clean and you're not taking drugs how much of you needs to leave something i don't know really I'm leaving things for myself in a way but not to do with the afterlife to do so say nine a year and a half ago I had a mad burst of creativity I wrote a load of songs which is what is the album the solo album I've done now and we were doing the Libertans album at the same time as well so all these songs came out I just trying to think what was the question again am I leaving something for after I'm gone No, it's just you want to leave a part of yourself or play it up.

51:08You want to leave a mark. Yeah, I feel like I've done that though. I feel like I've done things that I'm really proud of and that if they're still reaching people and touching people where I'm gone, then that's ace. But it's always been tricky to just feel true satisfaction and accomplishment from something you've done, you know what I mean, and think, right, you know, that's it. There's never a point where it's an unfinished thing. It never finishes, which is really half the magic of it, isn't it? Yeah. Would you say you're a perfectionist with your work? You know, with this album, with Calvados, are you like, that is exactly what I wanted to make?

51:42I've done it. Sometimes. I've heard that Calvados song a few times recently. I didn't want it on the album at first. It was sort of a throwaway song that just came out. But I'm quite into it now. And then I was looking at the comments on YouTube of it and someone wrote, pish the real Pete Docky is long gone and this like pale failed attempt to I know it was just it really like really hit me hard even though there was loads of nice comments as well. It's always the shit one. Yeah I mean but it kind of made me smile in a way as well you know I mean because there probably would have been a time when I would have got you know a hacker mate to find out where this person lived you know I mean and burned him and all his family's houses down but now it just sort of makes me smile and think what a lovely thing to do they must be a happy person but then it turns out like people don't really watch youtube now anyway apparently you know what I mean it's all it's all um spotify and tiktok and different things you know what I mean so yeah so what do you do with your paintings then nothing at the moment I need to work out what to do with them I've sort of kept it away from work because it feels too lovely to then put out there.

53:03So I sometimes put them on Instagram but I haven't really done anything. How many have you got? I mean over the years I sort of used to paint a lot when I was in my 20s and then had kids and then didn't paint for like a decade and now I'm back into it. So I haven't got that many, maybe 30 something like that but I'd like to do more. But I'll show you. Do you feel like you're leaving something for people? I don't know. I don't think it's even a conscious thing of I need to leave it I think there is something inherent about feeling like I've got to make something whilst I'm here I don't even know how to articulate it but I'm definitely I when I paint or write especially painting though I get really high like I'm buzzing and when I finish the painting I am buzzing for at least 48 hours like I can barely sleep it's like electrifying and nothing else does that for me and it's a it's a bit like that with writing but I'd say less so it's more ploddy and slow and I think painting can be more free and chaotic if you were to interview yourself what would you ask yourself hmm I mean I would probably I would probably ask myself all those questions that we were sort of dissecting in the middle of this about self-worth because I think I'm constantly going back to that and looking at it and looking at who the hell am I behind all of this stuff and do I like that person yeah but do you go long enough without all this stuff I mean do you have time I do now have like weeks or months where you're not not really doing public stuff and the change has been allowing myself to be more me in this setting rather than I better do what everyone wants me to do so everyone likes me what's palatable what how would people like to hear this podcast and what should I say and how will the guest feel well not even how will the guest feel comfortable because that's a given I want that but will the guest like me you know I think I used to be desperate for that you know will the guest walk away and think that was enjoyable or whatever and I think what I'm trying to do is integrate the just me me at home with all of this craziness and people listening to it and people having opinions about it.

55:24Have you got a good following? Have you got a good following? Yeah yeah on the podcast we have lots of lovely listeners who'll be loving all of this. That's what it's for you've got this when you've got this relationship with people you know they're out there maybe someone I want to leave you a little comment, but it doesn't really matter. You know that you've got, you know, this relationship with... Yeah. I think, you know, the difference with this in comparison to what I used to do back in the day, like if I was doing Top of the Pops or whatever, which was me reading lines. But that's pretty cool still, Top of the Pops, isn't it?

55:56It was very cool. I remember sitting cross-legged in front of that. Well, I remember I hosted it when you were on it with Baby Shambles. I remember that. The Kilimanjaro one or the... Which one was it? Not the one where we had to stop filming it. But there was a punch up in the crowd. Was it that one? Were you there for that? Yep, I was there for that. Yeah, there's that massive skinhead in the crowd. Someone gave you shit and then there was a fight. Yeah, yeah. I was hosting that. Yeah, I haven't forgotten that because it was quite a moment. But I think this feels like hopefully we're making conversations that will make people feel boosted or maybe less worried about their own things in the past or whatever it might be.

56:40That's the point of all of it. Whereas before, there maybe wasn't a point apart from I just need to be more successful. How can I do it? It's not really about that anymore, which I'm glad of because that's exhausting. so I would like to end by asking you Pete where is your happy place?

57:00so we go to bed quite early with Babby and at some point in the night Gladys will come up Zeus always sleeps downstairs but at some point Gladys will come up and you'll hear the padding on the stairs and maybe it'll be two or three so in those hours where I've been sleeping for the baby sleeps quite well as well and she said she still sleeps with us she won't we try putting it down but in the middle of the night she'll always so those hours really were lying there with the babby and my missus and gladys gets on the bed and then as the light comes she'll need a walk and zeus will need a walk so it's just like okay walkies and her wife's quite grumpy when she wakes up she has to be really quiet and then bang we race out and we go me zeus glad to go across the fields just tramp across the fields really gorgeous dogs and then come back and you know come back at eight or nine after a couple of hours and then crawl back into bed really that's heaven maybe if i put the simpsons on really quiet i can watch it while without waking anyone up um there's a beach called san juan beach it's pretty desert because there's a big industrial thing there so people don't go there you know to enjoy the beach but when the tide's right out it is right out it goes out for about half a kilometer and then that time in the morning which is me and the dogs and it'll be old you know when the tide's really low the uh all the locals come in because it's when they can get to the real good mussels and cockles you know and all there with their baskets and um yeah just that that time like on the beach with the dogs alone that's bliss those hours yeah do you reckon you would have imagined yourself saying that 10 years ago yeah well i used to always quite enjoy walking on deserted it's i know it sounds really cliche the deserted beach no no it's under the fading moon cliche for a reason that yeah Yeah, that's my happy place.

59:06You know what I mean? You know, especially if Gladys shit somewhere where you can't see it, so it's probably in a bush so you don't have to pick it up. I can imagine that Gladys does large dumps. Oh, my God, yeah. She's like a horse. Yeah. She's amazing. And she has slept through the whole thing. I mean, Gladys, I hope this is not representative of the listener experience that I've been that fucking boring. But Gladys, you're amazing. What a great dog she is. She's been extremely calming to have here. And Pete, I wish you all the success with the record, with the tour, with your little baby. It's been so lovely chatting to you today.

59:39Thank you very much. It's been lovely talking to you. I loved that. I really enjoyed that chat. Not only is Pete so thoughtful and obviously super intelligent and has so many interesting things to say, but I also love that that interview kind of went off on loads of tangents. Sometimes, especially I guess when you're sort of interviewing, I don't know, new pop stars or whatever, there's a level of media training that you can sense. With Pete, none. Absolutely. Just being himself. I love that. I really love that. Pete mentioned that address to send in poetry. That will be in the show notes. If you write poems, send him one.

1:00:18He would genuinely love to read your stuff and maybe even include it in the next fanzine issue. What's your creative outlet, by the way? Come and let us know on Instagram at happyplaceofficial. Let's chat about it in the week. For now, a massive thanks again to Pete, to the producers of this episode, Anushka Tate, and Basil Ox to be, and to you, because you're bloody great.

1:01:05This is Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad. O-Pill is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. Let's be real. Getting a birth control prescription is not always easy, and it's so much admin. In fact, about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control. Between scheduling appointments, missing work, class, or just trying to exist, it's a lot. But now O-Pill is putting birth control in our control. O-Pill is a daily birth control that's FDA approved, full prescription strength and estrogen free and 98 % effective when used as directed. Grab it online or at most major retailers, no prescription or doctor's appointment needed.

1:01:43So if you're thinking about birth control, check out O-Pill to see if it's right for you. Use code Giggly for 25 % off your first month of O-Pill at O-P-I-L-L dot com. That's code Giggly at O-P-I-L-L dot com. Birth control in your control. We love to see it. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

1:02:19And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about.

1:02:55Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. It's time for women to stop settling, start thriving, and reclaim their time and happiness. Having It All by Corinne Lowe gives you the power to make change. In the tradition of best-selling books like Fair Play and Crib Sheet, Having It All blends personal experience, research, and analysis to illuminate the complex decisions women face and offers an evidence-based framework for creating a better, happier life. You can find Having It All wherever books are sold.