Philippa Perry: Why everyone has an inner critic, and how to stop believing yours

0:01Fearne Cotton: Hello and a huge welcome to Happy Place with me, Fearne Cotton. This is the show that encourages you to be kinder to yourself. Today I'm chatting to Philippa Perry. I've never met anyone who hasn't got an inner critic. The difference between people is those that take the inner critic too seriously and become the inner critic and those that can observe it and think, not today, thank you. changing a thought pattern is a bit like building some abs. You can't go to the gym, have one session and expect, you know, the toned body. You have to go three times a week. And so it is with things like thought patterns.

0:40You have to practice noticing what they are and deciding to change them.

0:44Fearne Cotton: I'm really excited about this. Philippa came on Happy Place in 2019, which might as well have been the Victorian era. It's probably seven years ago. It's outrageous. We've got a lot to catch up on, but I was really excited for many reasons. One is I've really enjoyed reading her novel. She's got a novel out called Shrink Solves Murder. And it's one of those books that's kept me reading for much longer than a book normally would. So I get very sleepy at about 10 p.m. Just like the eyes are heavy. I'm like, I'm done. I'm out. I was up until 10.30 reading this the other night. and thank god I was because my son was at my ex's house and he had to get rushed to A &E in an ambulance and I would not have been awake to take that call had I not been up reading this very good book.

1:37Fearne Cotton: He was fine thank goodness he is all good in the hood and there is no problems but obviously as a mum it's always a scary phone call to receive. He actually loved going in the ambulance and was getting us to document everything to show his mates. So he got something out of the experience. And what I must also say is that it's the most obvious sort of cliche thing to say, but I can't not say it, but the doctors and nurses were so fucking amazing. It was in A &E and it was like one in the morning and they were all so not only wonderful at their jobs and incredibly skilled, but being funny, like joking around with my son.

2:18Fearne Cotton: and joking around with each other. Like the vibe was so lovely in the kids' area. It was just sort of a joy. So I just was like, I love you. I love you. I loved them all. They were just all amazing. So anyway, thank you to Philippa's book because I was awake to receive that phone call. It's a bloody good novel, is a sort of shorter way of summarising what I've just said. And thank God Rex is okay. Anyway, let's talk about Philippa. I also love Philippa, by the way, because we chatted before in depth about loads of stuff and we've also had her daughter Flo on we now just need Grayson because I'm a massive Grayson Perry fan huge so we're working on it Philippa is obviously a fantastic psychotherapist and actually that was very much her job that she did for years but she's now a writer a journalist and just someone who's got a big brilliant brain and I found her non-fiction books very useful in the past but this is a really cool moment because she is now writing fiction too and we talk about all sorts we talk about the critical inner voice that we all have and how giving it a name can be quite useful we also look at labels that we're giving in our life actually in multiple ways labels other people have given us like you're bossy you're stupid whatever in the past but also even labels that we're diagnosed with and how that can be helpful maybe initially but maybe not in the long term you'll hear more about that because it's obviously quite a complex subject and we talk about shame which is obviously a topic that I always like talking about because I've dealt with it and I know lots of you do too so I really hope that you find many points in this gorgeous chat really helpful.

4:02Fearne Cotton: You're a pro at running your life at committing to your workout at showing up every day at Bombas we're pros too pros at making socks Our Sport Astortman has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat-wicking yarns, blister-fighting details, and targeted arch support. Bombas Sport is pro-level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters.

4:37But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more.

4:40Fearne Cotton: Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. So you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Save on tropical flavors at Whole Foods Market during the Savor the Tropics event. With yellow sales signs highlighting seasonal finds throughout the store. The produce section is bursting with pineapples, mangoes, and kiwis at their juiciest. Grill up fresh seafood paired with tropical fruit marinades.

5:22Or grab and enjoy the spicy Hawaiian pizza, huli huli chicken, and more.

5:27Fearne Cotton: Finish with a sweet slice of mango yuzu chantilly cake. Savour the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market.

5:36Fearne Cotton: All right, let's crack on with it. Here's the show.

6:00Fearne Cotton: Philippa, I'm so thrilled to see you again. I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. It's so exciting. We were just talking off mic about you're in the middle of a pottery course. That's right. I am. That must be gorgeous. I can build things out of pottery, but I've never learnt how to throw. So now I'm at the wheel and I never realised it was so physical. Really? My arms are aching from pushing the clay and trying to get it into the right shape. It's tough. I bet. but is it good to like a bit of a release like you're getting some aggression into that plane I've never been so tense in all my life it's no not yet I've only been doing it for two days but how wonderful I need a massage you need a massage it's really it's really tough I really want to do an art course at some point I love painting I've always loved painting and it's like my sanity is painting but I've never I want to dedicate that time to painting one day and do a proper course instead of going on a beach holiday do that Just go for a week's intensive somewhere with a nice tutor and learn it.

7:07It's great. I'm having quite a lot of fun with it.

7:11Fearne Cotton: I bet you are. It's such a gorgeous thing to do. But it's not relaxing. No. No, it's hard. I don't think I understood how physical pottery was. I need to give it a go. Yeah, it's very physical. Well, I'm so glad that we can chat today and hang out because I haven't seen you since 2019. That's right. Like that was a year before the pandemic, I think. It was so bonkers to look back. So I went through our podcast feed and I was spalling back and like, nope, still not there. I was like, Philip A. Perry, 2019. To me, that was maybe a couple of years ago. Seven years ago. Seven years ago. I mean, seven years used to be such a long time.

7:48But now it's like last week.

7:51Fearne Cotton: I know. It's terrifying. It's like catching up with old friends. I feel like, oh, yeah, let's have lunch again. That'd be great. and then we say, oh my God, we last had lunch a year ago. I know. It's mad. Time speeds up. I mean, last time we met, we did a deep dive on your book, The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read, which is a book that seemingly just lives on and on. A book that people are still so interested in and love reading and buying. People keep having children and they need to know how to have relationships with them. So the book is still relevant. Yeah. I mean, you must still get approached a lot with, you know, parents coming up to you or kids of parents saying this book has changed my life?

8:29Well, luckily, I've got a substack so people can write to me with their problems about parenting or relationships or anything. So yes, they do keep coming up to me either via email

8:40Fearne Cotton: or in the street. I mean, it remains, you know, obviously I have parents, I am a parent. It remains still one of the sort of most obviously important dynamics in my life, but the one that teaches me the most relentlessly. You know, you're constantly confronted with yourself and the things that trigger you, but also the things that make you feel great about yourself. It is just the most bonkers dynamic to deal with being a parent. It is. And you've written a book called Likeable, which is really relevant, actually, because you can't just be likeable to your kids. No. It's love plus boundaries. It's not either or.

9:25It's got to be both. Otherwise, you'd just be, well, steamrollered.

9:30Fearne Cotton: Yeah. And also, I think then your kids go off out into the world expecting like everyone's just going to say yes to everything that I want to do. Or, you know, you're not then used to boundaries yourself if you go into the world without that. And you can't put down boundaries yourself unless you've had that demonstrated to you by your parents. Yeah, exactly. My daughter's incredibly good at boundaries. Really? A little bit too good sometimes. Not today, Mum. Oh, okay. We've had Flo on the podcast. Oh, have you? Yes. Well, not only that, I painted her. Well, she came onto the podcast and then I painted a portrait of her.

10:05Fearne Cotton: Yeah. But we had such a great chat. I mean, she's an incredibly talented artist as well. Yeah, she is. And got married, was it last December? She got married last November to a Scottish lass and they've just moved to Scotland. Wow. And I'm getting on a plane very soon to get in the way. Tell them where they should put their furniture. I love that. Yeah. Oh, but I mean, the wedding looked gorgeous. I was looking at all the pictures online. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was really good. Except for one thing. Grayson, my husband, dad dancing, snapped his Achilles tendon. Yes. Going for it a bit too much. Going for it a little bit too much with a little bit too much alcohol in his system.

10:49Right. Didn't know his limits, I'm afraid. Snap. No tendon. And it's the slowest thing to heal in the body. It's much better if you break a bone. Oh, God. Because this takes about nine months to heal.

11:01Fearne Cotton: Oh, God. And he gets out of the boot and he's told to do a lot of walking. You should never tell my husband to do a lot of something because he takes it literally. Okay. And he did so much walking because he wanted to get better fast that he's now got a stress fracture on his foot. and now he's got to go back into the boot. I mean, it's a sign of a good party. Yeah, it is. And, you know, the higher the number of hospital admissions, the better the party, for sure. I think so. It's so great. Hey, I loved reading this book. Oh, thank you. So much. It's so brilliant. This is a fiction that you've written, Philippa.

11:38Fearne Cotton: Shrink solves murder. Yeah. And the protagonist, Pat, is expecting her 3pm to turn up. Yeah. He doesn't. There's a suspected suicide, but she's assuming it's not suicide. And therefore she goes on this sort of treasure hunt of clues and trying to decipher what happens. I'm imagining as having a big therapeutic background, actually having that sort of mindset, you're in you sort of have got yourself in a good position to solve if it is a potential murder, a murder or look for clues because you have to have, I'm imagining a very wide perspective on life and human behaviour, self-awareness. I think actually Pat's biggest advantage is that she knows how to rally the troops.

12:26She could not have solved that murder alone. And one thing psychotherapists are supposed to be good at is having relationships. And so it's her relationships with other people that working together, they get to the answer.

12:43Fearne Cotton: I love that. I love that. She didn't do it by herself. No. And there's so many things I love about Pat. And I wonder how much crossover there is with yourself. I mean, whenever you write fiction, it's hard not to put lived experience or yourself in there. She is definitely an aspect of me. She is the person I kind of wish I was, but I'm not. Maybe I've got to read your book because Pat does not worry about being likable. Love that. She is the grumpiest woman you'll meet on the South Downs. And when you meet her on the South Downs, she'll probably tell you off for something. Well, she's very pissed off about someone leaving a Mars bar wrapper daily.

13:22Yes, that is a subplot, the Mars bar wrapper. That's another mystery that needs solving.

13:30Fearne Cotton: But she loves cold water swimming, which is something that you love. Yes, that's right. Swimming in the sea. What benefits do you get from that? What do you love about it? You get really, really cold and it's so nice to warm up again. I'm not actually sure what benefits it gives you. I like moving my arms and legs in the water, but I actually would prefer if it was 30 degrees and not 6 degrees. But you have to go with what you can work with. It's nicer than swimming in a swimming pool because you're out in nature and stuff. But the downside is that it's cold, but you can get used to the cold. You can.

14:04Fearne Cotton: And like you say, the relief is just such a glorious moment at the end. When you get out. Yeah. and you feel like you achieve something when you're dry and warm and thinking back to the colder days it is wonderful it does get the blood pumping for sure it really it really really does so you'd like you're saying you'd like to be a bit more cantankerous like Pat yeah I'm working towards getting there I love that yeah and the other thing about the book is that I've made some characters that I hope you enjoy hanging out with her friends her frenemies her enemies some are loathsome yes they're fun though aren't they So fun.

14:40Fearne Cotton: Yeah. I'm imagining fun to write. Loads of some characters are fun to write. Yeah, they are. Yeah, because you can just put out all your inner wishes. You can just imagine a friend of yours and, I say friend, and put them in the book and you know they're so vain they're never going to recognise themselves. I love it. Yeah. You've said not so much about this Pat, but if it's the same Pat in your book, Couch Fiction, that you wanted to create a therapist character who was imperfect. Yes. Because we've all got this imagined idea that therapists are these perfect humans who just get how the world works and they're there to tell us how to live.

15:18Fearne Cotton: And that's not what you believe. And character fiction was Pat Phillips maybe 15 years ago. And she was an imperfect therapist then. And she's an imperfect therapist now. In fact, we have a session in the book with her, with her supervisor, who does quite a lot of trying to knock Pat back into some sort of therapeutic shape rather than become a sleuth. Yeah. I love that mention of Pat meeting up with other therapists, because that is something that therapists do, right? It's essential that they have therapy. Did you do that? Do you still do that? I meet up once a year with 50 psychotherapists for a week.

16:00I like to get it all over in one week. And we all go to Mexico and we take over a convent and it's like a campus and we hang out and we do therapy on each other intensely for a week.

16:14Fearne Cotton: Wow. Yeah, it's wonderful. I really enjoy it. yeah I can only imagine I mean therapy has absolutely changed my life like in every way I used to dip in and out of it and think oh just go it was always like SOS moments and then the last two years I thought I've got to give a more consistent approach a go and just see what happens and my whole life's changed I go every Wednesday yeah as much as I can on that on that particular day and it is something about going on even a day where you feel all right that seems to be the key. I think it's when you're feeling all right, you've got more power, energy to rise above your life and look down on it and observe yourself.

16:59And that's what's really useful. If you're in the middle of a really big feeling, all you've got is that really big feeling. But if you can separate yourself from the feeling and observe yourself having the feeling, you realise you've got choices that you don't realise you've got if you're right in the middle of it.

17:18Fearne Cotton: Yeah, because when you're in it, you just think this is fact. I have those moments all the time where I'm like, this is shit and I am this rather than, like you say, when you're maybe on a better day, you can go, oh, I have felt like that or there's a bit of distance. Or, oh, I notice I'm talking to myself with a critical voice again. Oh, okay. Hi. Whatever you want to call your critical voice, you know, Mrs. Bobkin or something. Just give it a silly name. Give it a comical name. Yeah. Hi, Sandra. All right, Karen. I like a very human name. Apologies to all the Sandras and Karens. I love you all.

17:56But, you know, you've just got to give your critical voice a name. Yeah. And then it's separate from you and you don't take it as seriously.

18:05Fearne Cotton: Yeah. I mean, I actually did a post about this on Instagram this morning because I could hear my critical voice piping up a bit over the Easter holidays. And my exact post was my tip of the day. Not that I know what I'm talking about, but my tip of the day from personal experience is be less of a cunt to yourself because we are so awful to ourselves. We are our own worst enemies. Awful. Our own worst critics. Yeah. I have to have a lot of editors telling me, no, keep writing. Yeah, no, the book is good. Keep going. Because others I go, is it any good? No, no, it's not. Apparently it's really good.

18:47Fearne Cotton: Thanks very much. It's really good. But I think especially with fiction, what you're doing is asking a bunch of strangers to believe in a made up story. I didn't realise that it was going to be so much more exposing than writing nonfiction. because nonfiction, you're writing the truth. You put in examples from your own life. I mean, surely that's the most exposing thing. No, putting your imagination out on the page, that is exposing. That is the true you. That's what's going on in your head all the time. Yes, exactly. And as I said, it's a big ask to go, and everybody else, please believe this as much as I do.

19:26Fearne Cotton: And that sort of vulnerability in hoping that they do. So say, you know, we could use this book as an example. You're in the middle of the book. You've got a bit of self-doubt going on or a critical voice. What do you do with your knowledge and wisdom to override that? I just take no notice of it. I go, you know, hello, Betty, to the critical voice. Thanks very much. I'm sure you'd like me to stop now, but I'm going to go on even if I don't like it. And I'm going to push through. So I do that and then I show it to someone. and somebody encouraging, don't show it to your worst enemy. I show it to someone and they give me some encouragement.

20:05The people at my publishers are wonderful and very encouraging and cheerleaders they are. It's really great.

20:13Fearne Cotton: Yeah, we do need that. When we can't find that positive voice ourselves, we have to find the right people. I mean, sometimes I feel like if I don't believe in me, I need to find people that do believe in me and they can just carry me over the river, over the torrent, till I get to the other side. And then, oh, thanks, guys. I mean, I've thanked them in the acknowledgements, my sort of like rallying team of friends. There's just support. Even if they don't know what's going on in the book, I'm reminded that my friends that have known me for a long time go, you do this with every single book you write.

20:47You always say, it's no good, it's no good. And then it goes on to be a bestseller. So will you shut up? Yeah, OK, thanks.

20:54Fearne Cotton: There's a horrible little cycle, I think. I've talked to friends of mine that are either in the process at the same time as me, or we know that cycle well of, oh my God, I've got an idea. I'm so excited. It's so exciting. It's so exciting. And then either halfway through or in the edit, this is a pile of shit. I don't know even what this means anymore. What the hell is this? And you do need good people at that point to sort of salvage your confidence. You need carrying. You do. You need carrying. And even on my pottery course, right, I'm throwing pots for the first time and I think it looks like a sort of wobbly egg cup.

21:29And the teacher comes along and goes, that's great. You're doing really well. And I go, oh, really? I can carry on. And if she said like, if she chimed with the voice in my head saying that's rubbish, I'd probably pack up my little wooden tools and leave. Yes.

21:48Fearne Cotton: And I think, you know, so many of us lose confidence maybe when we leave childhood because somebody at some point has said to us, you're bad at that. You shouldn't do that. I think if you look at children's drawings, you can see this because children draw without any self-consciousness. This is my house. This is my mum. This is my cat. You know, circles with sticks out of them. and I don't know when it happens, seven, eight, nine, sometimes they just think, no, that's crap, that's no good. Yeah. It's no good and they stop drawing and then they never get any better. But if they carry on drawing, you draw like a grown-up in the end.

22:29Fearne Cotton: Yeah, and also you will enjoy it. Like you're saying, you're starting pottery. You're not going to be good immediately starting something new, but to carry on doing something because it feels good rather than the outcome must be amazing, that feels very important. I mean, especially as I can build things out of slabs in pottery, so I can make some great looking things in pottery. And here I am doing a new technique and I just want to go, I know how to make this look better if I do my old way. But that's not the point. I'm learning a new technical skill. Yes, it's good to learn new things. It's good for your brain.

22:59Fearne Cotton: Try new things and put yourself in a position where you're ground zero. You don't know what you're doing. I think that's so important. And I think that if you were one of those children who were told, and no, you're not because you're a good artist, but you're told don't bother drawing, you haven't got any talent and you've stopped, you can start again, whatever age you are. But I think also. You can start at 80, like Grandma Moses. Yes, absolutely. I think it goes even further than outside of people critiquing what you're good at or not good at. When people give you a label, like in childhood, if someone says you're being too loud or you're cocky or why do you why are you always the kid that does that thing?

23:43Fearne Cotton: I think that stuff stays with you later in life. What's the way to start overriding that when you know you've got this label that you don't like about yourself? Yeah, like mine was show off. Right. So it was very difficult for me, I think, to do anything in public. In fact, I didn't publish my first book until I was 50. You know, I worked as a psychotherapist behind closed doors and nobody knew what I got up to. And I was, I am a show off. I don't deny it. And so the show off part of me sort of like, why can't I show anybody what I do, which is when I wrote Couch Fiction, which is a graphic novel about psychotherapy.

24:24and so I felt like now I've shown people what I can do but what I found out by doing that book that wasn't all that great at it actually because I had you have to write a book of truth even if it's a book of fiction otherwise it doesn't work and I realized like I'm only an average therapist I'm not the greatest I'm not a great therapist but I thought and that's good enough as well so that's you are a great therapist I'm a therapist no I don't think I'm a great therapist I mean Why? Well, after working with 49 other really great therapists,

25:00I realised that, you know, my talent is somewhere to go in that respect. Do you really think that? Well, I think there's always room for improvement. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've got so much from reading your books. I can't tell you. I'm not saying I'm not about, I'm probably better at writing about therapy than practising it because I get very impatient because I see the end goal and I kind of want to push my clients faster than they want to go to the end goal. And you shouldn't do that. You should go at the client's pace. So I do have the odd fault.

25:32Fearne Cotton: Do you think in, you know, because not only with your psychotherapy, but your, correct me if I'm wrong, your initiation was working for the Samaritans back in the day. Yes, that's right. Yeah. So that, you know, is another flavour of that. Also learning how to talk to people, how to encourage people, how to help people recover from very tricky situations. Would you say over the course of your work in psychotherapy, there are very solid themes that come up again and again? And, you know, the circumstance will be different, but as humans, we all struggle with X, Y and Z. I've never met anyone who hasn't got an inner critic of some sort or other.

26:14And I think the difference between people is those that take the inner critic too seriously and become the inner critic and those that can observe it and think, not today, thank you. I think that is a big theme for most people.

26:31Fearne Cotton: Yeah, but how refreshing to know that everybody has that, because I think we assume there are some people immune to it, they don't have it. Well, I just wonder where Donald Trump's inner critic is. Okay, he hasn't got one. And maybe if you haven't got one, you do go mad. You're a sociopath. I don't know. I think it is maybe a symptom of sociopathy. I mean, it's quite good to have a helpful critic, isn't it? Yes. So you have to know what is a self-sabotaging inner critic and what is quite useful feedback for doing better next time. And I think how you tell the difference is that a bad inner critic is a generalised, this is no good, this is terrible.

27:13Whereas a useful one is you got those bits right. This bit could do with a bit of fine tuning, but that bit's working well. If it's specific feedback about where you can improve and it's not a damning of your character or of the whole of you, then it's probably quite useful.

27:32Fearne Cotton: I agree. Because I think when it is that blanket coverage, your shit, that's the thing that then stops you even bothering at all. I'm leaving that. I'm not going to try that thing or do that thing. It can be massively debilitating. When you've been in Mexico and you're working with these other therapists, what have you come away with? Is it, I don't know, more self-awareness or understanding about yourself or has it helped you heal from certain things? I think what I come away with is the more of ability to stay grounded in myself rather than being a bit too much in my thoughts. So I think I get a little bit more in my body and be able to relate and respond from that place.

28:20I'm a bit of an intellectual, so I can all too easily go up into my head and then miss the other person. Because really, we are bodies. You know, that's what we basically are. and although we're talking to each other with words you know we're also breathing together sitting opposite each other we're in each other's space we're breathing each other's air so I think that body to body communication is really important and if you're too much in your head you can't receive the other person on a sort of bodily level you know when you walk into a room and there's an atmosphere. You go, hello, what's going on there?

29:05That's when it's an extreme body to body reaction. You're responding to the tension in other people's bodies. A word doesn't have to be spoken and you can sort of feel it. You go, hello, what's going on? And I think that reaction can be fine-tuned all the way down to, you know, how do we feel together? and I think I come away with much better skills in that department which I can forget the rest

29:33Fearne Cotton: of the time yeah I mean it is um it's imperative when you're like reading a situation reading a room but I'm imagining one step further is using that to your benefit when you're in a setting I don't know where you feel nervous or a setting where you feel intimidated inferior I've been so many situations where I felt inferior to a journalist interviewing me or something where I feel a bit triggered and you notice that your body language is curled up and in and you're actually and actually if you can fake it till you make it I guess really and inhabit a body that feels relaxed and outward it does help cognitively change things I mean a real easy way to do that is thinking, how am I breathing right now?

30:19Yeah. And as soon as you do that, you usually slow down and get into the breath. Yeah. Yeah.

30:27Fearne Cotton: It's nice, isn't it? Oh, my God. I love it. I used to hold my breath at the top when I was on the radio. Oh, did you? Yeah, and I was on the radio every bloody day. And I would find myself... I never noticed. You sounded good to me. Oh, my God. But you're like on tenderhooks. I don't want anything bad to happen, so I'm going to hold my breath to freeze time, you know. And then as soon as you exhale, it is like the simplest way just to go, oh, my God, I'm safe. Everything's all right. I'm okay. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombas, we're pros too.

31:04Fearne Cotton: Pros at making socks. Our Sport Astorban has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat-wicking yarns, blister-fighting details, and targeted arch support. Bombas Sport is pro-level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays.

31:42Fearne Cotton: That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. So you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Save on tropical flavors at Whole Foods Market during the Savor the Tropics event. With yellow sales signs highlighting seasonal finds throughout the store, The produce section is bursting with pineapples, mangoes, and kiwis at their juiciest. Grill up fresh seafood paired with tropical fruit marinades. Or grab and enjoy the spicy Hawaiian pizza, huli huli chicken, and more.

32:23Fearne Cotton: Finish with a sweet slice of mango yuzu chantilly cake. Savor the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market. We asked you here because we care. And your car insurance doesn't. They've raised your rate every year and you haven't even checked. I thought that was normal. A lot of people do. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry pulls up to 20 quotes from top insurers in minutes, shows them side by side and lets you switch in the app. No jumping sites, no reentering info, no spam calls. It helps you cancel your old policy and keep checking for better rates. We want better for you. Jerry does too. Don't settle.

33:01Visit jerry.ai slash ACAST.

33:07Fearne Cotton: What would you say are the things in your life story that have been recurrent where you're like, I'm in that cycle again. I'm doing that again. Like habits you've fallen into or cycles that, you know, aren't helpful in your life that you've been able to kind of stop and check and go, there's room for change there. I think one of them is I'm not good enough. That can come in. And so it's really good to clock it. And sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm just acting as if I'm not good enough rather than noticing that's what's happening and thinking I'm probably good enough. So there's that one. I find that really surprising.

33:50Fearne Cotton: I wasn't expecting you to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I can be shy. And the best way of me not being shy is to come out, talk to people, meet people, go on a pottery course, chat to people. It's practice. And I found out during the pandemic, when I didn't practice my social muscle, that it atrophied. Yep. So the first party I went to, which was a book launch, it wasn't my best friends, who I was probably okay with. It was like colleagues, fellow writers, people I was really pleased to see and wanted to see. I just sort of got so shy, I couldn't cope with it. And so because of the lack of social practice, I'd gone back to being about 15.

34:43Wow. yeah yeah it was it was bad yeah I mean I definitely got very hermity in the pandemic

34:50Fearne Cotton: and I found it like a struggle and also I had an operation at the end of 2024 was it yeah I can't remember anyway I was I didn't work for about six weeks and I didn't really see anyone and then I had a work event it was the first week back in January yeah and I was like a rabbit in headlights like oh my god all these people and what's my face doing? Am I smiling? Am I grimacing? You know, and you, it is self-consciousness comes back. Yeah, of course. And normally I'm just interested in other people and don't think about being self-conscious, but that takes practice. And when I was out of practice, I was going, oh, do I eat a canopy?

35:31Oh, will that look ugly? You don't? What? What load of rubbish to fill your head with took me ages to get back back into eating canopies on self-consciously you know it's a big step yeah thanks when we look at that notion of not being good enough i'm pretty sure

35:52Fearne Cotton: that 90 of people listening to this if not more yeah we'll go but well i feel like that or i have in the past felt like that it's probably the number one thing that halts us from again trying something new, socialising all together, dating it's going to affect all areas of our life. How do we start to override that or to is it again fake it till you make it because often there's not proof to go oh but I am good enough you know because it's not an evidence based thing. The other thing is a silly question good enough or not good enough it's not really relevant is it? No, no. It's sort of like you're here you're allowed to be here and some people have had more experience of some things than you have and you've had more experience than some things that that they have you know they might all be brilliant television producers or whatever they are but um you're a psychotherapist or yeah you're a broadcaster or wherever you are you know you've got your area yeah you know your children better than they do or whatever your what we think of expertise is.

36:58You don't have to be expert at anything, but I just feel like we're all humans and that's it really. We're all human and we're all pretty much equal.

37:09Fearne Cotton: I mean, we are. Do you think, is this quite a modern day concept, this like not being good enough thing? Because if I think about my grandmother's generation or my great grandma who I met, because she lived till she was like 95, I don't think that was necessarily a thought process. It certainly wasn't a conversation. By the time you get to 95, you're really owning it. My grandmother aged 99 or something, I said, what's the advantage of your age? And she says, I can say whatever I want. Yeah, I love that. And I just thought, why not bring that forward a bit? Let's not wait till we're 99 before we say I can say whatever I like.

37:50Fearne Cotton: No, I mean, I got lots of intergenerational friendships and my friends who are in their 70s, 80s, They're the ones that are like, I don't care. And you will get to that point. But like you say, why are we waiting? Well, it might be something to do with estrogen. Right. But when that goes, we don't give a fuck. That's right. Estrogen is the hormone you've got to make sure you don't kill your children. It's the nice hormone. Along with oxytocin, it's the loving hormone. And when we go through the perimenopause and the menopause, it depletes. And then it's much easier to give far fewer fucks. Yeah.

38:31Fearne Cotton: How do we do that without these? Unfortunately, I was so bad without oestrogen. I was homicidal. But now I have the patches. So I'm still nice. You can't have it both ways. No, you can't. I mean, as I said, therapy has been massively game changing for me, but I'm a lucky person who can afford to go to therapy. And we know that globally, this is an issue that we've got is access to therapy. I mean, this is access to good therapy, good therapy. Yeah. What do we do about that? Well, it's paying for it, isn't it? And if you can't pay for it, what you mentioned earlier is that every Wednesday you go.

39:16So what you have is a regular practice. And I think regular structured practices can really help us. For instance, keeping a gratitude journal. Sounds really simple. But if you do that every night, just after you've cleaned your teeth and before and before you start reading your novel, just write down three things that you're grateful for today. It does over time switch your mindset to noticing the good things as well as the shit things. Yeah. So there's that sort of practice. And also you can do mindfulness exercises, which sound really dull and they are quite. I'm not not going to lie. But I like to once a week sit down, no devices.

40:10I sit on the floor actually to keep myself awake. No devices. Sit on the floor back against the wall and have next to me a pencil and paper. and any thought that comes in, I don't turn it into thinking. I keep it as a thought. Just write it down. So it's sort of like, oh, I can hear clanking outside. So any old random shit. Any old random thought. All right. Oh, mustn't forget that. Oh, let it go. Let it go. Any random thought. And then afterwards, you can have a look at those thoughts and you have to do it for half an hour. And for the first quarter of an hour, I'm always angry that I'm doing the exercise.

40:48and then the last quarter an hour I really start to enjoy it and it goes really fast

40:55Fearne Cotton: such an interesting I've never you know I've looked into lots of mindfulness I've never heard of that one I like this it's how to do it is in my book how to stay sane which has got many exercises that are good for self-therapy in it including that one and then you notice what your thoughts are and you can go, my goodness, I've had 25 self-critical thoughts, two practical thoughts, three thoughts about what I can sense. And then you can go, well, I could steer my mind a bit. So then you could do another exercise where you only notice what you can see, what you can hear, what you can taste, what you can smell and what you can touch.

41:40Like you can be aware of what the fluffy carpet feels like under my feet. I can be aware of what my hands feel like on my jeans. Now, this is not interesting, but it can get interesting because you just get into your senses. It's sort of the gestaltists used to call it, leave your mind and come to your senses. Oh, I like that. Because it's about letting the chattering mind go. The other thing you can think about are things like you can have thousands of thoughts a day, but if you class one down and bring it down, you can make it into thinking and you can choose whether you let go of that thought or bring it in to make it into thinking.

42:25We have choices about this. And if you sort of have some sort of regular practice where you notice your thoughts and notice what you want to do with them, it can be as good as therapy. I mean, it's a lot easier when you've got someone to work with about, you know, what's going on in your mind and unpacking your mind and seeing what you want to do with it. Unpack your mind, lay everything out, only put back what you need. Yeah, because we've got more autonomy than we believe. And what it's about, journaling and things like that, what it's about is to become more self-aware. because when we become more self-aware, we then got choices.

43:12I've got a choice whether I do rounding circles, panic thinking, or whether I come to my senses and notice what I can see, hear, smell, touch. And coming into your senses, if you say do that practice for like quarter of an hour, just what can I smell? It's quite fun to do it now. What can I smell? What can I hear? oh, I think I can hear a buzzing sound. You know, it's very calming. And it shows you do have a choice about what you fill your head with.

43:46Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Oh, my God. And we fill it with utter crap a lot of the time because we're on our phones and we're, I don't know, people have got opinions about our lives and we're taking that on and we're sort of bombarded by it. The phone, unfortunately, is a source of dopamine. Now, that gives you a sort of little thrill. Yeah. But it's not the right sort of thrill. The right sort of thrill is the thrill I'm having now because I'm having a conversation with you. It's a contact thrill. And in the olden days, when we were a bit bored, we used to talk to the person next to us on the train or the bus. Yeah.

44:26But now we're always on our phones because that's not a risk. That's easier. And that's instant. Oh, you know, scrolling. In my case, lots of cats falling off buildings. Oh, same. Yeah, lovely. Yeah, nice. But, you know, 10 minutes a day. OK. But let's not forget the lost art of conversation. Yes. And what is so great about being on a pottery throwing course, everyone, is that you need both hands on the wheel. So there's no scrolling going on. So we're actually having, I'm having nice chats with strangers.

45:02Fearne Cotton: That's so important. Yeah, it's really nice. And it is, like you say, so much rarer these days. I remember once I actually met an ex-boyfriend when I was a teenager because he used to get on the same train as me. That would never happen today because no one's looking at each other. But you can't remember who's on the train with you now because you're just looking at Fern's Instagram. Exactly. We're just on these screens the whole time. Yeah. I mean, they are fun, but they are addictive and they're designed to be addictive. So just like you wouldn't drink too much, don't take too much of them in.

45:34I'm not saying put them down altogether because they are quite fun. Yeah, exactly. They are quite soothing. Yeah. But it's not so much doing it that's damaging, I think, as what you're not doing when your hours are eaten up with that, what you are missing out on. Yeah, hugely. And it might be missing out on real contact with real people.

45:56Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Oh, my God. It's just so important. I love – I'm going to do that mindfulness exercise because I think – I know that if I get in a cycle – and it's usually an angry cycle. Like I know where my head will go and it will be an angry thing. Yeah. And I do have spontaneous moments where I go, I'm going to choose to not dwell on that today or think about that. And as you say, like bring it into your thinking. Yeah. And would you say the majority of that is just actually practice in practicing your autonomy? I am choosing to think about, okay, there's a situation going on that I don't like. I'm going to choose when and when it is relevant or beneficial to think about it.

46:36Yeah, don't have arguments with those people in your head over and over again. I don't sleep sometimes because of that. You know, that's where it goes, doesn't it? Yeah, we have got a choice. And I think if you put an hour a week to one side to notice how you're thinking, notice how that makes you feel, deciding what you want to do and practicing that, it is a form of therapy. And you can do it with friends.

47:04Fearne Cotton: Yeah. You know, you don't have to have a qualified therapist to do it. It will help if you have my book, How to Stay Sane by Philippa Perry, because there are exercises that help you do self-therapy in that book. You know, that would help. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press one for comfort, two for style, three for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated.

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49:28Fearne Cotton: The one thing I know that therapy has helped me with is saying things to somebody that, you know, I went, I tried lots of different therapists over the years, but I found one that it just works and it clicks. You know, that is the work there, is finding a therapist that works. I had three before I found one that really worked. Yeah. I mean, I think that sometimes puts people off, doesn't it? Like, oh, it just didn't work. I didn't gel with them. No, that relationship didn't work. I have found someone that this person is just brilliant and obviously doesn't always say the things that I'm expecting or the things that I need to hear or want to hear.

50:08Fearne Cotton: I do need to hear them. Yeah. Somebody who will challenge you nicely. Absolutely. That's been one of the game changers is the sort of challenging of my beliefs. And one of those has been around shame and feeling immense shame about certain things. voicing these things and then that shame dissipating really quickly. Isn't it great how talking about shame makes it go away? It's mad. Shame really loves silence, really loves isolation. Loves it, loves it. And often, you know, I was very lucky that when I talked about certain things, the therapist that I had, and you could do this with a friend, I think that you really trust, is that they offer up something that they have felt ashamed about.

50:53Fearne Cotton: And you go, why are you ashamed about that? And it's all the response is always, you know, you don't need to worry about that because we've built such a narrative in our heads about it. But I think if you, you know, it took me a long time to say certain things. There's one example I feel happy talking about. When I was in my teens and 20s, I had bulimia and I couldn't even say the word because I didn't identify with it. I didn't have that. It wasn't that. It was something a bit different to that. This was just, it wasn't a big issue. It was just something that I did and whatever. And then I started to talk to a friend about it because she admitted to me that she had dealt with it.

51:33Fearne Cotton: And actually, I can tell you that friend is because she's talked about it on here, Briony Gordon. And she had talked about losing a tooth because of it. And I was like, oh, my God. Okay, well, I got receded gums. And then it was like, oh, this is all out in the open. This is not something I need to hide and feel so awful about. And as soon as I started talking about it, I can talk about bulimia now without feeling any physical anything. Before I used to feel like tense and small and stressed out. And now I feel like I'm just talking about walking down the road to get a loaf of bread. But that took me years and years.

52:07Fearne Cotton: And it keeps people in the shadows on their own. It could be for a whole lifetime about certain subjects. You know, after working at the Samaritans for a number of years, shame is probably the number one thing that makes people want to disappear themselves because it's unbearable and they think they're unbearable and they think they're unacceptable. But talking about it and having someone on the end of the phone going, oh, yeah, I can understand why that felt like a good coping mechanism or whatever it was. Yeah, well, that makes sense that you did that. That worked for you for a while. You know, if you just accept someone when they're in the throes of shame and you can have shame about all sorts of things like, oh, I don't really belong here.

52:52I don't really belong. When I did this, you know, big psychotherapy week with my colleagues, a lot of us were going, oh, I'm not sure whether I belong. And that's what we worked on. And so interesting. Yeah. that you know you can be an advanced psychotherapist and you can still think do I really belong in this group of advanced psychotherapists yeah yeah I mean I think that's always so

53:20Fearne Cotton: brilliantly myth-busting when you hear about people the top of their game who go I don't feel good enough I don't feel like I've made it you know it's not and it's it's not just for certain people it's like yeah most people feel like this do I belong do I belong one of One of the interviews I loved listening to recently was you being interviewed by Ryland. Oh, yeah. I love Ryland. Yeah, he's so cute. He's so great. And I just loved where the conversation went. And you talked about the first time that you had this sort of interaction with your husband, Grayson, where before you'd had that belief of I'm not good enough or whatever, however you were feeling in your dynamics.

53:57Fearne Cotton: And you'd spilled a bunch of coffee everywhere. Yeah. And he was really sympathetic. Yeah. Towards you. Yeah, I was not used to that. I was right. I dropped a tray of coffee, right? And I immediately thought, oh, I've got to clean this up really quickly before anybody notices. That was my reaction. And he's thinking, where's my coffee? He comes out and goes, oh, you poor thing. I think, oh, no one's ever reacted like that before. Most people are saying, you klutz. you know so someone should say oh you poor thing not that I minded somebody saying you klutz but this was really different yeah and I thought oh he's helping me clear it up oh he's making a fresh batch of coffee oh I like this get used to this this is nice yeah I don't think I'd had that before not in my previous relationships not in my family of origin so to have someone be nice to me when I've done something daft.

54:58Yeah, I'll have more of that, please.

55:00Fearne Cotton: Did it take your brain a while to catch up to go, oh, and I deserve this? Oh, I never thought I deserved it. I always thought it was a lovely treat. But thank you for the suggestion. I'll try and take that on. I deserve it. No, I've never been a great one for deserving things. All in good time, Fern. Give me a chance. I'm only 68. I'm nowhere near that 99 of finished yet. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there, yeah. How important. I was having a very interesting chat literally two days ago with a friend. I'm obviously, with what I do with this podcast, really interested in psychology and psychotherapy and also looking at childhood.

55:39Fearne Cotton: And my friend who I was talking to is not. So I was sort of almost quizzing them about pathologizing certain traits or things that they feel were problems in their life. I am probably too quick to pathologise my every move in life or look at what happened in my childhood or whatever and try and make connections. And how important do you think that is? Is it for everybody? I think it's interesting to know where things come from, but that's all it is. It's not necessarily useful. And it's not enough just to know why something is. It's not enough to know that you're shy because you always got told off for showing off or something.

56:23That is not useful in and of itself. What is useful is doing something different. It's changing your behaviour. That's what's useful. Changing your thought pattern or changing what you actually do. That's what's useful. but to cling on to your childhood or indeed your diagnosis as an excuse isn't going to change anything for you so these these things are useful in order to take the next step do you think

56:57Fearne Cotton: everybody can change because some people will go oh I'm just like this I'm just an anxious person they probably get some comfort from it they don't particularly want to change it does take effort like it does take practice um changing a thought pattern is a bit like building some abs you can't go to the gym have one session and expect you know the toned body you have to go three times a week for 45 minutes yeah and so it is with things like thought patterns you have to practice yeah you have to practice noticing what they are and deciding to change them or you can't change them but observe them rather than be them which is the first step to them shrinking it's quite humbling as well isn't it because if you realize you've got to change you've got to have a look at the things you know aren't working which is not always fun but it's essential if you want and sometimes you quite like the things that aren't working you know I um have I given up alcohol No, I have not.

57:59Am I going to give up alcohol? Not if my doctor lets me still have a little bit. Thanks very much. But if and when the doctor says you can't have any more alcohol, then I would stop. I could stop, but I haven't stopped. And maybe it is a bad habit. But I really enjoy it. Oh, God, me too.

58:20Fearne Cotton: Do you? Oh, yeah, I love a little drink. I'm good for you. I had a period of sobriety. I don't even know why. But it made me even more hermit-like because I've got the propensity to just stay at home. And actually, I love going out for dinner and having a couple of glasses of wine or a little cocktail and having a laugh and having that balance and not beating myself up the next day and just feeling a bit shit and it being okay. That's been a bit of a readdress in my life recently of just like getting that balance back a bit and going, I just kind of want to have a bit of fun. Yeah, I think all or nothing things, polarizations, they're not always a good idea.

58:55No, they're not. A little bit of what you fancy does you good.

58:59Fearne Cotton: I agree. I mean, we very often hear in many different ways that there is a mental health epidemic going on, that this is, or even the word crisis is used. A, I guess, would you agree? And B, what are your thoughts on that? Why do you think we're in this mess? I would agree and I wouldn't agree. Okay. I think we've all got into phone addiction and we've all got into labels. And the trouble with a label is that it's a full stop. I can't help it. I've got bipolar. There you go. There's your label. And the full stop means that you stop exploring. You stop saying, how do I do this? You know, what are my triggers and what could I do to respond differently?

59:47You're not doing the work. You've just got the label and you're holding it up. And that isn't particularly helpful. It might make you feel better in the short term because it quietens the critical voice. But in the long term, if you're behaving impulsively at the expense of your relationships, you're going to make your life difficult for yourself.

1:00:11Fearne Cotton: yeah I mean what is our way out of it if there is such a thing at this point in time when technology is kind of more prevalent than ever it's to slow down slow down and notice what's happening to you sounds easy and also have a look at your screen time and if it's if it's more than an hour on social media have a word with yourself yeah if it's more than an hour on games have a word with yourself and pick up a book likeable by fern cotton any any other things are available yeah i mean this is philip perry this is such uh it's so enjoyable i think having fiction is so great because it is just pure escapism and it's such a great chance and i did put jokes in it oh it's really funny it's funny and it's it you know i'm not good with any dark subject matters but you've managed to create a book that actually feels really jolly alongside quite a shit that's That's right.

1:01:09Murder and jollity. Well, the thing is about a murder mystery book, and there's, you know, Shrink Solves Murder. It does what it says on the tin there. The thing is about a murder mystery book is that it takes a very complex, terrible, the worst thing that can possibly happen problem and ties it up in a neat bow. Yeah. And there's a beginning, a middle and an end. And wouldn't it be lovely if life was like that? Wouldn't it just? But we never know the ending. We never know what's going to happen.

1:01:37Fearne Cotton: No. And that's why I guess hope's important. You've got to be hopeful. Who is this hope? I don't know, but I really like the sound of them. We've got to have hope. We've got to have a bit of hope. I am hopeful. I can't help it. Yeah, I am. I could do some work on that and become more pessimistic. Like Pat. But, you know, it's working for me. Yeah, I think I'm naturally hopeful, but I do keep it in mind. I think it's so important because when you're in a shit time, if it's not there you're just like what's the point what's the point you've got to have a bit of hope yeah and all things pass this too will pass this too will pass god that's an important one yeah this too will pass and perhaps i can make friends yeah perhaps i could join the local club local community pottery throwing class i love it meet phil she's there before we send you back to pottery.

1:02:35Yeah.

1:02:35Fearne Cotton: There are a couple of things. First thing is we are compiling a playlist of music. Nobody warned me about this. No, we like to keep it spontaneous. Okay. If you were to put one song on there that makes you feel great, what would that song be? Well, you talked about hope. I've just done a podcast with Neil Brand called All About The Music, which I really enjoyed. I can And only think of the songs that I put on there. But Someday You'll Come Along, The Man I Love by Ella Fritzgerald. Oh, I love Ella. Can you sing that for me? Definitely not. But I'll put it on the playlist. Okay. You can cut this bit.

1:03:13Hang on. Okay. Let's see if I can do it. I haven't warmed up. No, no. Someday he'll come along, the man I love. And he'll be big and strong The man I love Anyway, it goes on like that

1:03:32Fearne Cotton: Yes! And Ella does it better, believe me Oh, I love it, you were in the song Anyway, I hope you can edit that out No, we're keeping that right in Oh no And, Philippa Perry, where is your happy place? Oh! Where? Oh my God, I'm sorry to say But the first thing that came up into my head When you said that was bed Yeah Bed! Bed's the best Oh, bed Bed. Oh, clean sheets. Oh, bed, clean pyjamas, clean sheets, freshly washed hair. Oh, I love it. And a really big bed, right? I want to do star shapes without touching anybody else. And that includes you, Kat. Yeah, Kat and Grayson better be in another postcode over there.

1:04:11Yeah, okay, exactly.

1:04:12Fearne Cotton: Oh, I love that. Yeah, bed is best. Bed, absolutely love my bed. Me too. I love getting into it not that keen on getting out which is a good preparation for death isn't it talking of hope well I've loved talking to you today I so enjoyed this book thank you it came at the perfect time I just needed a good bit of escapism and a really jolly good story and I loved it thank you Fern that's so kind thank you and look we've had you on we've had Florence on we now need your husband on you better get Grayson on yeah next on the list yeah thank you philippa thank you fern i loved that for all the reasons that i hope you loved it but one of them because i got to luckily sit in a room with philippa at the happy place studios is that i felt so calm afterwards you know after that moment where philippa was like and just have like and breathe oh and i was like oh my god yeah i'm really not breathing properly you know but i think when i'm in the middle of a podcast i'm so focused on like what am i saying next what are they saying what have I just picked up on where's this going next that I sort of forget to breathe so I'm now feeling like 80 % more chilled than I was before she's just a wonderful person to spend time with and hopefully is now molding a big lump of clay on a wheel is that the right terminology anyway I love Philippa and Philippa's novel Shrink Solves Murder is available from the 7th of May if you want just a really good bit of like I was about to say cozy murder don't think that's the thing.

1:05:45Fearne Cotton: Cozy crime. It really is. I don't like dark subject matters, but she manages to make it, as I said, like jolly and brilliant and mysterious. Well, I really hope that you haven't got too many plans later in the week because I'm going to be back with another huge guest in just a few days time. We're going to be carrying on with that line of thought about menopause and giving fewer fucks as we age, which is really important. It's going to be a good one that you're going to love. In the meantime, a huge thank you again to Philippa, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, I love ya.

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