Ronnie O'Sullivan

0:01Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that questions what success in life really looks like. Today, I'm chatting to Ronnie O'Sullivan. I want to look like the guy that's actually enjoying what he's doing. Win, lose, draw, whatever. I want to still come out and go, you know what, I actually enjoyed that. Because I spent a lot of time winning and not enjoying it. So I have had that privilege, if you like, of winning a lot and not being happy. And I've had that privilege of not winning so much, still doing all right, but being happy because I've got the right balance. And I went, I'm not prepared to win a lot, but be unhappy anymore.

0:36so I'm more kind of like about life's a marathon, it's not a sprint. Ronnie's had a career spanning over three decades but his journey to becoming the greatest snooker player of all time has been filled with extremes. He was a teenage snooker prodigy but the pressure that came with that plus a challenging home life led him to a life of excess and addiction all of which he details in his memoir Unbreakable. Ronnie was very close to walking away from snooker a bit over a decade ago, but after meeting with renowned psychiatrist Steve Peters, his career was reinvigorated. It became clear very quickly in this chat how much of his current mindset Ronnie attributes to his work with Steve.

1:26There's a little bit of a connection between Ronnie and my family, actually, which he touches on in this chat. Ronnie is very good friends with another Ronnie, my father-in-law, Ronnie Wood. They've spent a lot of time together back in the day. Ronnie, my father-in-law, Ronnie, is a huge snooker fan and a very good friend of Ronnie's. And my husband, Jesse, who would definitely be tagging along for a lot of fun back in the day, is also great friends with Ronnie. Just in case you wonder what on earth we're talking about when we get into that in a bit. It was really good to catch up with him. What a lovely bloke.

2:06Extremely funny too, but really deep and meaningful at the same time. I really hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. Okay, let's do it. Here's the show.

2:38Hello, Ronnie. You all right? I'm good. Are you well today? Yeah. You've got a busy time because you're obviously juggling your day job with also talking about this new book you've written. Yeah, I've managed to sort of like condense my snooker down to like about eight hours a week. So it leaves up quite a lot of time to just do other stuff now. So I figured out a way. You're managing it. Well, it's a brilliant book. I really, really enjoyed reading it. It's called Unbreakable. And you open the book. It's sort of very poetic opening, describing what it feels like to play good snooker when you're in almost, I'm imagining it feels like a sort of meditative state, a flow state.

3:22Is that a state that you crave? I think you kind of got to a point in my life where I felt a bit unhappy in myself. And I kind of searched for a bit of inner peace. And I didn't realise that I got that inner peace from playing snooker. So in a way, I now play snooker just to kind of get away from the noise and the distractions of life. And I love what I do now more than ever because I didn't realise that that's what I was getting. You know, I get a lot of people go, you know, I'm trying to find myself. I'm trying to find that peace and quiet. and I kind of get that from playing. So I now use playing as a chance to sort of be in that space really, you know.

4:03At what point do you think you've stumbled across that realisation that that was where you would find that peace and experience it? I don't really know really. I just, I think it's a difficult one really because you have moments where it just feels like, you know, the best time when you're feeling really good is when you're in the most intense pressurized situation but you still feel calm and relaxed and you just think I'm in total control here when I go to the practice table then every day feels like an easy day because you're just practicing no one's watching you there's no pressure it's just you and the table and the balls and you're having fun but the most beautiful place to be is when you're in an intense big match big final world championships there's loads of pressure but yet you feel like you're so calm you're so in control and you're just saying, ah, this is like the icing on the cake, you know.

4:57So for me, it's about, you know, the ultimate buzz and the ultimate meditative state you can get in is when you're doing it in like an intense situation, you know. And what's the, I guess, the recipe to experience that under pressure? Because like everybody, although you've obviously had hours and hours of honing your skill and you've got natural talent in the mix as well as all of that sort of study and practice. Obviously, we all wake up and some days are good, some days are bad. It might be you slept badly or you've got something going on in your life that's distracting you. What is the recipe to feel that sense of peace under that immense pressure with all eyes on you?

5:36I think you've just got to love what you do. And I think the other person that mentioned it as well was Gazza. And I'm not saying I'm anywhere. I mean, he was like, he had like ridiculous fame and I don't know how he dealt with it, but I remember listening to one of his things where he went, the only time I get real peace is when I'm on that football pitch for 90 minutes and I'm just left alone. And I just think that that sort of, that resonated with me really in a way that I kind of think that no matter how bad things are in life, the minute I get on that table, I just become a little boy again.

6:08You know, I just become that 10 year old, that eight year old that just loves playing. And I've learned that even if I'm having a really shit day and I'm not playing great, it's all right you know you know we can't always be great every day but I always I took myself out I kind of went right now I need to kind of like imagine that Tiger Woods was that my local golf club and I don't know how he's playing but I'm watching him on the driving range hitting balls and in his mind he's thinking I'm really in the ball shit but if I was watching him I think he's the most amazing thing I'd ever seen so I kind of had to turn that around and go I might feel like I'm playing shit but all these people who are watching me are thinking that was a great shot how did he do that how did he do this so I kind of like I'm a little bit more lenient on myself to kind of go you know what I have high expectations of myself but even when I'm playing really shit I'm still like pretty good to most people you know so it's sort of learning to sort of change your perception or change your psychology towards it if you like because there's nothing worse than going out there winning and feeling like you've you've embarrassed yourself or you've let people down you know and I've kind of learned to to kind of just realize that's just me you know it's not what everybody else is thinking you know.

7:21Well we're so hard on ourselves aren't we and I I was reading that bit in the book where you were talking about you're playing a match and you were you were winning but you felt exactly as you just described you felt like you were playing really badly clumsily that you felt you were lacking confidence and then you watched that game back on the TV and we're like, oh, I look super confident. I'm playing really brilliant snooker. And I think so many of us feel that. I mean, I'll have that. I'll sometimes even do one of these podcasts and think, oh, fuck that up so bad. And I listen back and go, it's actually fine.

7:55And I think we all in life think we're doing so much worse than we actually are. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the key. You know, that's the thing, you know, it's crazy, really. But, you know, like, I don't know. I just think you just, you kind of get to the point where I think I've been lucky enough to surround myself with people that I trust. You know, I've got a fellow called Steve Peters and I've been fortunate enough to have great access to him. And every time I sort of run things past him, he kind of tells me the truth. And, you know, and he said to me, he said, Ronnie, if I thought you was playing bad, I'd tell you.

8:28You know what I mean? He said, so, you know, and you're not, you're not playing bad, you're not doing bad, you know, and I'd be like, okay. And this was, this is this particular match you're talking about i remember it was in the final the masters i said steve you need to get down here because i'm i'm all over the gaff and he was like i've been watching you you're doing great and i'm like no steve you've got to get down here because i'm i'm all over the show so anyway he come down i won the final 10-1 and he went well what do you reckon i went no it was still shit i said i played awful and then five years later i watched that match and the match you're talking about i was like wow i actually played really well so what i was feeling and what I was actually doing were like completely just not, they were just, it was, I had it wrong.

9:09So now I kind of have to sort of have trust in certain people and I go, what did you make of that? And he went, yeah, there's a few mistakes, but on the whole, it was pretty good. And I went, okay, all right. So, you know, and it just allows me to just keep going and not, you know, not feel quite so bad about it, you know. And do you think that's, it's also because your perspective of snooker has changed over the years in terms of, you know, you say these days it's not about winning. You want to get out there and enjoy it and have a good time. So are you putting less pressure on yourself in terms of when you're playing a, you know, a sort of a match where all eyes are on you and it's an international match?

9:50You're taking the pressure off yourself a little bit with that. Yeah, well, I kind of realise it's impossible to flip that switch. which I've always been a competitor. I've always wanted to perform really well. And like Steve said to me, he said, that will never go. He said, so when you ring me up on the Monday and you're stressing about a tournament starting on the Saturday, he said, I ain't worried. He said, because I know come Saturday you're going to be on it. He said, I know it. He said, you know, you've got that competitive animal in you. He said, what we've got to do is manage the build-up, manage your self-doubt.

10:21You're a very catastrophic thinker, he said. So we kind of got to get on top of that. and I think that's what sort of happened and by trusting that I'm going to be all right when I need to be all right has become like so now when I go away to tournaments I don't worry about my game my practice has it gone well for me it's like every tournament I go away to it's like a holiday so I said to my mate this morning I said when I go away I said I've got my running mates waiting for me I says I have breakfast with them and then I go for coffee then I'll kind of hang out with my mate I'll go and get some dinner I said if someone said to me that holiday is going to cost you three five grand for a week to go and do that I would pay it I said but actually I'm getting paid to be there and do that as well I said so I'm up for none I said no matter what happens wherever I go I'm having a great time so my hobbies and my and my love of running keep fit of just being sitting in coffee bars and just scrolling on my phone that's like 95 % of my day the other 5 % yeah I've got to put my suit on and yeah I'll get a bit nervous but I know that when it comes on if I start performing badly I'm going to get a bit pissed off with myself and I'm going to go right I've got to like I've got to find a way to win here so that kind of naturally kicks in so the build-up for me is it's just about managing the build-up and kind of worrying less about how I'm going to perform on the table and just trusting that it's going to work itself out no matter what and the more worry the more I worry about it the less I'm probably going to want to do it in the end so it's about just you know like Steve Peter said to me he said if aliens came down and watched what you were doing they'd go what he's actually taking this series sticks and balls on a bit of felt what he's really getting upset over like not performing he said you know and I went yeah it's ridiculous Ronnie he said it's ridiculous he said I have to perform life-saving operations on young kids he said and I have to sit there with their parents and go this ain't looking good he says and you're moaning about your game he went come on mate get it into perspective it's just a game and you've got a great life enjoy it he said because at the end of your career you're going to go i wish i enjoyed it more so i've been fed so much of that stuff from steve which i'm so grateful that i've been able to meet him that it's kind of just sunk in so much now that that shift has happened and it's like there's no turning back now.

12:44I don't want to go back to the old me. I'm happy where I am. And I just want to keep it going, you know. And brilliantly, when you're enjoying something and you're in the moment, you are better at it, whatever you're doing. It's like you give the example in the book of Usain Bolt, who, you know, we've seen on the start line of many races, high fiving everyone around him, smiling at the crowd. Everyone else is like serious, sort of stressed, trying to get in the zone. But it's counterintuitive because I know that feeling and I can be a real catastrophic thinker as well you know I can get myself in a terrible hole worrying about things that are going to go wrong and it just doesn't serve you it doesn't get you anywhere and I guess it is a discipline almost to allow yourself to enjoy something and allow yourself to not feel the stress yeah no absolutely absolutely and and listen I get criticized a lot because a lot of the players they they hear what I say I I mean, it was quite funny because I was saying to Stephen Endry, who was at the UK Championships recently, and we were just chatting, and I went, Stephen, I actually don't give them monkeys, mate.

13:47If I get beat, I'm thinking, sweet, I'm in the pundit. And he went, you know what? He said, I actually believe you now. He said, but when you first started saying it, I thought, no, that can't be true. And he went, but I know you mean it. And I went, I said, I'm telling you, mate, I said, this is where you need to be. And he went, I wish I could have done that myself. He said, it's working for you. And that's what I'm saying. It's not like my performances have dropped off. They're still good. and I think a lot of the current players get a bit frustrated because obviously they think, well, he's got all these tournaments, all this stuff, and one of them said, well, why are you here playing?

14:16And I thought, well, because I want to be here. I'm having a good time, mate. I'm going to have the most amazing Italian food later and then I'm going to go for a run in the morning. That's why I'm here. That's what I'm saying. When people say to you, why do I play snooker? I go, I meet my running mates. Why do I play snooker? I get to sit in a coffee bar and scroll on my phone. Why do I play snooker? I get to meet my mate, Robbie. Why do I play snooker? I get to like get some quiet time in my hotel room why do I play snooter I get to like sit in bed at night and just have hot chocolate and just shut my eyes and just think you know what this is great why do I play snooter I get my breakfast cooked for me I get my bed made I'm like they're all really good reasons to keep playing snooper do you think a bit you also have to um you know we've all got an ego that is a given as a human being and you have to almost get in touch with your ego uh have a good line of communication with your ego because it's the ego that for all of us will latch on to you've got to win you cannot mess this up you've got to be the best in the world how do you reason with with that sort of thinking if it creeps in um because I think I think with me I just feel like I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I feel like I've I have got nothing to prove so if I was sitting here talking to you and I hadn't won a world title I hadn't won anything I might not have that luxury of saying you know what it doesn't matter whether i win or lose so i don't want to kind of like sound like you know this person that's got it all sorted no i've i've actually overachieved in my opinion so i'm kind of quite comfortable to go you know what i've rinsed snooker and i've got more out of it than i ever thought so let's just be a little bit grateful for that and i'm kind of like i can i can maybe take a few you know losses and loses and kind of be a bit philosophical about it so you know I don't want to sort of come across as like you know because it could be you know the other way around where I'm you know like I said you know haven't achieved and I could feel pretty shit about myself so but I've just learned that if I keep thinking that winning is the route to happiness then I'm going to be quite disappointed because when I look at my stats I probably only win five ten percent of the tournaments that I play in so does that mean that 90 percent of the time I'm going to be miserable no it just means 90 % of the time I just have to get up off the floor and come back again and I enjoy the comeback I'm one of them that like I like being beaten up and then going you know what I'm still here and then playing well and then going like that yeah we can do it you know and it's kind of like like you say Usain Bolt it's like you can keep beating me you can keep whatever but I'm going to keep showing up and each time he shows up you know them competitors are thinking fuck me I wish he weren't here and I just kind of feel a bit like that when I play snooker I turn up when I know that they're thinking when's he gonna retire you know because it's frustrating for him you know and and I kind of get off on it a bit to think you know what I'm staying fit and healthy just to piss you lot off you know you're not getting an easy ride it's so good I mean one of the the punchiest lines in the book which I wrote down because I loved it so much was that you say your greatest asset is that you'll crack but you don't break why do you think that is is that just your nature is that lived experience yeah I think I think I've sort of like built up this resilience over the years I think it started when I was a kid at school and I just I just wouldn't be told what to do so it's not like something that was put in me but I think my dad recognized it and went you know what I've got something here you know I've just got to like channeling in the right direction so he got me into all sports but I think he knew that I had that that grit and determination to sort of like just keep going you know and I think over the years I've kind of you know we've all had our ups and downs but obviously you know losing my dad when I did my mum going to prison that was quite a lot to take on and I just think that you kind of like you get through them situations and you come out the other end of it and you go right well that's that's i've got through that what else you got to throw at me and then something else comes and you can't i've got through that and that and then all of a sudden you start to to motor on and you start to kind of like you know you win a world title then you win two world title you win three world and then you think oh and then and all of a sudden you think hold on i'm you start to feel like you can cope with anything and i think it's just kind of like that inner confidence that you kind of get um that I'm just a survivor I'll always come out and I know that if the worst situation happened to me if all I had was my shirt on my back I could get on a plane go to Thailand put my feet up and have friends out and I know that I'll fit in anyway you know so I don't feel like I'm needy for the things that most people think that they need I'm quite happy to go you know what have it all but you're not having my sanity you're not having my my my freedom you You know, like Steve Peters says, you're a bit like a leaf.

19:06He said, you blow around in the wind. He said, you hear you there. He said, but I know that. He said, so it's like his PA. He said, Ronnie's meant to be here at 12 o 'clock. Steve went, don't worry about Ronnie. Ronnie will get here when he gets here. He said, let's just get on with our day. And he's right. You know, I hate being like locked down to a time, to this, to that. So I like to just, I just go with the flow, you know. I wonder if some of that is just in your DNA, naturally who you are, because I think reading the book, some of the experiences you've been through would floor people to the point where they would get stuck in that feeling of grief, injustice, whatever it might be.

19:40Like you say, you know, at the age of 16, your dad went to prison. Not long after, your mum went to prison. And you at the age of 19, already playing very high-end professional snooker, were looking after your 12-year-old sister. I mean, that is an unbelievable burden for a teenager and someone who's skyrocketing in the most brilliant career with passion attached to that, that is a lot to cope with. And I mean, as you just said there, I guess when you're in the moment, you're just getting through it. You have to survive that. And maybe it's retrospective that you look back and go, I can't believe I got through that.

20:19I'm in one piece. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think that's why a lot of the time as I get a bit older now, especially at the last World Championships, I broke down quite a lot really emotionally. and that was just because I had my daughter there, I had my son there, I had my dad there and I just reflect, it was just reflective, you know, I was just reflecting on, hold on a minute, I remember the day when he went to prison, I remember the day when I had to leave them two little ones and didn't really have that bond with them, I remember that day where I got insomnia through stress, through anxiety and I was losing the plot but I came through it and I found a way to kind of get on top of my life, my work, everything, just to survive.

21:01And by winning them little battles and kind of getting there and then getting to that World Championships last year and winning and playing great and feeling good about it, like I said, that meditative state where I went, you know what, this is the ultimate gladiatorial. I played John Higgins in the semi, massive rival, beat him, unbelievable. judge trump 33 years of age unbelievable player i'm 47 it's on me here but i went you know what you're gonna have everything i'm gonna give you absolutely everything this weekend and and it's last man standing i went wallop wallop wallop and that was it and i come out and i went wow and for me that was like you know what that made me feel good you know so i think that's sort of like you kind of a bit more reflective in a way of sort of of like like i said yesterday i I said, you know what, just listen, you know, through Jesse and Ronnie, like they know me well.

21:57I was like, I got lost, but they see that, you know, that was just like a, you know, and they were there for me and supported me. And they know the story. And it's kind of like I didn't ever think I'd get to this point where I was healthy, clean, little, you know, little bit of sanity there. You know, I'm 47. I ain't got long to go. So even if it goes wrong now, who gives a fuck? Do you know what I mean? it's like I've come this far if this is as far as I get I'll take it you know I mean I'm not greedy so I'm kind of like all right with where I am and if it don't get any better fine if it gets worse suck it up take it on life can throw all sorts at you you know but it's just about you know just keeping a sanity at the end of the day and where I'll end up who knows it could be in some I could I could end up living in Kenya doing all the passions that I love which is running eating Ugali with them Kenyans, cleaning their boots and getting him ready for his marathon, taking a young kid on, being his mentor.

22:55And I'd get such a buzz out of that. So that's where my joys are, is giving back and sometimes giving back to the right people. So even if the shit is the fan, I could end up in Kenya as some sort of role model or some sort of, you know, some sort of giving guidance to some young kid that's got some talent. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to make you an Olympic you're going to do it but I'm going to help you do you know I mean let's let's do it and that that so they're the sort of opportunities that I know that are out there I just have to sort of there's so much to do you know that you know that excite me you know yeah it's exciting I think it's always exciting seeing that there could be a whole new chapter ahead I think that's what kind of certainly gets me out of bed in the morning and you know you mentioning there that you you felt like you know you'd lost your way at some point and you mentioned my husband and my father-in-law who have also been on that you know exact journey of excessively drinking etc and then healing from that but you did it quite way before both of those two um you know you were in the late 90s you you say that you hit rock bottom in Holland in the late 90s and that was pivotal for you and that was pivotal for you to to change your journey and to and to walk down a new path why did that feel like rock bottom at the time what was the defining feeling of being in holland and knowing things had gone too far i just kind of got to the point where i thought i thought i said to my mate i said i'm i feel like i said i could i feel like i'm gonna die i said jerry don't let me die in amsterdam mate i said whatever happens just fucking make sure that you get me home or whatever it is just and he went i'm taking and he was like a big brother to me jerry and he went i'm with you and I went sweet and I realized then I thought this has got completely out of hand I need to sort myself out I don't know when that moment was after Holland but I was on the way to like you know I need to sort this out so yeah I was kind of the first one to sort of get myself into rehab get myself clean you know I wasn't successful at staying clean I would have three four months cleaning I'll be off the wagon but I knew that it was the right thing for me to do which was stay clean and then I think like you say you know I became like a bit of like you know if people wanted to get clean it was like ring Ronnie Ronnie seems to have a little bit of an idea of how to kind of like do it so it's been great you know listen I'm so happy for your family Jessie you know I watch from afar speak to you know and it's so happy that everyone's happy you know and it's great you know it really is it really is and it's it's obviously whether it's due to addiction or or it's just a lifestyle that you find yourself in drinking excessively.

25:33It's not an easy thing to get out of. And obviously it's a motivator, I think, obviously for Jesse and Ronnie to help other people, but also why I do this podcast to offer up stories where people know it is possible to get out of addiction or loops where you are drinking excessively. What do you think the first step was for you? Was it rehab? Did that impact you in a way that led you down a different path? Yeah, definitely. I think that was the, if I didn't do that, then nothing else would have worked. You know, I kind of would have ended up a complete mess, throwing my career away, throwing my life away.

26:07Yeah, it wouldn't have been a pretty, pretty, pretty life. And I think rehab gave me that sort of, well, actually it was my first meeting. So it was my first meeting. I'm sitting in a circle, 30 addicts, sitting there and I'm looking around. I'm thinking, that's all right. You know, I'm sitting there. I ain't got to talk to anyone. I'm just listening. Some nice little stories. and then one fella started talking and I was like I thought is he talking I thought someone had said to him what I was going through because everything he said was how I felt and I'm looking at him he's got a nice jacket he's got a nice bottoms on he looks all confident and I'm thinking I just I just thought if he can do it then you know and it gave me a belief and I went home and I was I went I went to that meeting feeling fucking depressed and Dan and I went home thinking yes I was flying and I had my last joint I went I made my last joint because I'm in rehab tomorrow and I went into rehab and I've done a month in there I skitsed out after two weeks got all paranoid went home for about four hours went back to the rehab done my month got clean for about nine months done the steps done all that sort of stuff and then I was like you know what I can be happy without drink and drugs it's just I've just got to stay away from it now you know but the healing period is is about kind of like you know trying to find your personality again you know still doing life but without drinking and you when you when you first give up you think I'm going to be the most boring person in the world in some ways maybe I am but I've kind of like embraced that and gone well where do I fit in I don't fit in with the lads because I'm not a lad so I'll go down the running club I train Tuesday and Thursday night with them I go I do a few races I do a few park runs I'll go to the peak district or the lake district and I'll climb a mountain and that's a great day for me and I'll have a nice little barbecue bit of food early night and I'm over the moon so that's you know I've just kind of you know embraced that that's that's all right for me you know it might not be for everybody at least it gives us a chance to find a path that suits us you know so rehab was definitely the first start and I think it was the most important one because addiction still runs through my life but I choose to channel it into running exercise cooking my work my snooker working with Steve Peters you know doing all that sort of stuff I can be really obsessive with that sort of stuff but I'd rather be obsessive with that because I know that that's taking me forward and it's sort of and by me being good I'm able to be good for my family and friends and be and be more of a supportive sort of person instead of a burden you know my mum and dad must they're worried like shit for seven, eight years.

28:44Now they don't have to worry, you know. So I think it's just the ripple effect. And then obviously just keeping myself fit and healthy and obviously the work I've done with Steve Peters, it's kind of like levelled me out now. I'm sort of like, I'm all right, you know. I kind of can see what's important, what's not important. And, you know, I can roll with the punches a bit more, you know. Do you see a correlation between your drinking and what happened in your childhood? Was there a sense of running away from it? Or do you think that that addictiveness came from something else? Or just, I guess, genetically, how you showed up in the world?

29:20Yeah, no, listen, I mean, that's a good question. And I said to my mum, I said, mum, I said, what was I like as a kid? I said, was I like, she went, no, you was a happy kid. You was this and that. I had a great upbringing. I had a great life. You know, my mum and dad, yeah, it was dysfunctional. She was an Italian, beautiful looking woman. my dad was this little East End funny, larger than life character they were like at each other it was like a scene out of the Sopranos you know what I mean she pressed every button in his body and I grew up with that but I had the best upbringing my dad loved me, took me everywhere with him my mum was a great mum, she was like a solid solid person I was just destined to fucking I was just a little fucker I just had it in me You know, I was just I was just always up to no good as a kid.

30:06I couldn't help it. Not in a bad way, but, you know, I was always in trouble, you know. So I was a trouble. I was a I was a troublemaker, if you like. You know, I wasn't, you know, I was setting fires in the park and thought it was funny. You know, I was I was driving the milk float down the road and, you know, I was doing stupid things of driving my dad's car up and down the road and around the block when I was 12. And it's like, you know, I thought that was what is fun, you know, but it wasn't. And, you know, I was just, you know, and my best mate's mum didn't want me to hang around with him because she was like, my George, you know, don't want him hanging around with Ronnie.

30:36But now she loves me. So, you know, I'm just, you know, I mean, you know, there's a good side to me. But then there's a little bit of a naughty child in there, you know, and he's still there. But I just learned to just sort of keep him away, you know, like now I'm a bit more, I use a bit more diplomacy. You know what I mean? I'm a little bit more, you know, like, you know, let's think of the bigger picture. You know, I don't try and win every battle. Sometimes it's good to just, you know, let people save face sometimes and just, you know, just get on with your business, you know. And you say mental health wise, you would sway more towards anxiety than depression.

31:12I mean, I'm the same these days. I think anxiety is always just in the background a little bit and I have to keep that at bay. How do you deal with that today? Because I know in the book you also talk about that affecting you in social situations, which again resonates massively. I don't love socialising. It has to be with people that I know very well or sort of small groups to feel completely at ease and myself. How do you deal with that? Because obviously your job is, well, can be very social. You're at tournaments, there's lots of people, spectators or players who you're going to be mooching around with.

31:47How do you keep the anxiety at bay? Right, my snooker turns me into an antisocial person. I become like edgy and when I become edgy I become like I ain't got time for small talk I ain't got time you know I mean I'm preoccupied so I kind of end up shutting myself off from the world if you like I might have three or four people with me and I can like unload on them and we can have a laugh even when I'm having a nightmare we can have a laugh about it so I kind of like when I'm playing I accept that part of that is that I'm going to become this unsociable person but the minute I get beat i'm like now i can relax i become the most social person in the world so what i've learned to do is to kind of go that there are times when i'm going to be unsociable but i don't want to be an unsociable person so i'm not unsociable when i'm doing my work with eurosport i'm not unsociable when i'm doing this stuff with you i'm not unsociable when i'm doing stuff that doesn't you know get into my bones you know this is just nice stuff i'm not unsociable when i'm doing a few little property stuff that you know that i do or i'm buying a bit of art and i'm selling it or anything like that i just go this is exciting and i'm like i want to you know i mean or i'm down the running club i'm like the most social person in the world but i've learned to do a lot more of that stuff because that changes me it makes me a nicer person it makes me a much more social person i don't have the anxiety i can sit down in a room of 500 people that i don't know and I'm, you know, I'm just buzz off of everybody.

33:16But if I'm in the middle of a tournament or I've got the world championships coming up and you put me in a room full of 500 people, I want to run for that exit door. I'm like, get me the fuck out of here. Do you know what I'm saying? But I also have some really good quotes that I say to a lot of people because a lot of people, when they see me, they want to talk about snooker. And I'm like, I don't actually want to talk about it. They go, when's your next tournament? And I'm like, so now I just say to them, I said, I don't actually play anymore. And they go, really? I go yeah I'm done with it mate I said I'm time out I said I'll do a bit of puncture I'll do a bit of this I said life's sweet and you can see him so I just kill the conversation I kill conversations that I don't want to have and then it was quite funny because one woman she went to me oh but you know when you're playing next I said I don't play no more but literally I played the day before and it was in Landino and she was in Landino and I see her look at me like that as if to say but you were playing yesterday and I went have a nice day and I was like out of there You know, so sometimes what I do is I realise I'm actually really a nice person to talk to when I'm talking about something that I'm actually interested in.

34:20I'm not really interested in snooker because it fucking burns my head out. But I talk about running. I talk about mental well-being. I talk about nice food, restaurants. You know, what's this one up to? But get me on snooker. I'm like, boom. I'm like, fucking hell, do we really have to talk about that? So I've learned to eliminate conversations. By lying. Yeah, you just have to lie. You just have to lie. There's nothing wrong with a lie, you know. If it's for the benefit of everybody. It's a great tip. Yeah, exactly. It's a great tip. How else might anxiety show up in your life today? Do you still feel it in other areas?

35:00Listen, I'm a natural. First emotion is panic. Catastrophic thinking. So I realised that and I kind of go, oh, come on, that's just normal. so now let's like sit down and like let's get a bit of a perspective on it is it really worth me thinking this about that no it's not you know like steve peter said aliens felt balls really we're gonna start taking this shit serious now what's really important is having a cup of tea with me mate how you doing you're right as you're my manager yeah they're all good steve you're running yeah all good lovely that's that's the important things you know i mean just just the day-to-day things that make us happy so i think what was the question again i'm sorry I sort of lost my throat If you feel anxiety in other bits of your life well you've just said panic there I know in the book you talk about you feel panic about people leaving you again I'm imagining that correlates to your parents going to prison when you were a teenager is that something that still affects you?

35:56I think I'm a bit of a needy sort of person in some ways I'm not good at being alone and I would always say well no I'm alright with being alone but Steve Peters went to me and said no you need people I was like, oh really, fuck, because he's always right. So I've realised that that's part of me, that I'm always going to need something. So it's the running club or it's running friends or it's just people in general. So I kind of need that in my life really. I'm probably better when I'm around people that I feel comfortable with. But yeah, listen, I mean anxiety. When I say anxiety, for me anxiety is where I feel trapped.

36:36you know a little bit of edginess a bit of pressure that's different you know I can function in the world I can still have a conversation with someone anxiety is when I'm sitting there and I'm like literally it's like I can't breathe and I probably get that once a year twice a year it's always related to a big snooker match or a big snooker tournament sometimes I don't get it because I'm managing it really well my game's good and everything's just in place and I'm like you know what we're all right here you know so but in general I'm usually not that much of a panicker really because nothing's really that important to me in that respect you know i mean it's sort of like i think i've kind of got quite a lot of things that i enjoy doing that if i keep kind of doing them like 10 of my life is is going to be tough where i've got to go and play snooker but the other 90 of my life is doing a lot of things that i enjoy so when you've got 90 for pushing against the other 10 the other 10 hasn't got a chance to really get in and if it does get in i kind of go all right we've just got to nip this in the bud it's just for a short period you know you know it's going to be all right tomorrow you know i mean i'm going to put the cue down go home rest put the feet up be with my family friends might you know take me three four days just to like proper decompress but it's going to be fine you know so you kind of like can look ahead and kind of see that it's just fickle like you know a lot of the stuff that is bothering us is fickle and given a little bit of time half an hour an hour or a little conversation with someone someone might say something yeah you're kind of like you know what it's all right you know so I'm much more aware that life can be fickle you know.

38:12And let's talk about running because you it seems like it saved you in many ways what was the transition from feeling awful in Holland and drinking to excess to then you're now running like you're competing you're running at a high level and your training is intense and as you say you've got these running clubs all over the UK where you've got friends that you meet up in different venues that become your sort of running buddies how did you end up running and and and loving it so much um I'm not sure I love it but I actually got so into it and I got to a half decent standard where I went you know what it's hard to not enjoy something when you do it half decent the problem came when I was so into the running that I said I was playing at snooker tournaments and I was thinking I don't want to be I want to be running with my mates and then I was being the tournament and there'd be a race on the Saturday I'm thinking if I get beat on the Thursday I can get home Thursday night Friday be ready for the race Saturday I got home I said to Terry I said tell me I said I've got a bit of a problem now I said the running's like obviously more important than the snooker you know but it's not good mate I'm still only like 20 28 29 you know it's my job so he said look what I'll do is I'll introduce you where's your next tournament I said Telford he said right I'll get to the local running club.

39:27So he introduced me to him. I turned up. He said, here's this girl's number. It's Claire. He said, you're meeting her at 7.30 at this pub. So I went to the pub. I went, oh, you're Claire. She went, yeah, you're running. I went, sweet. She said, well, I'll take you to the gang. So we went out for a run. I was running with Tim Don, who was the world triathlon champion at the time. I was running with a fellow called Chris Davies who ran in the Commonwealth Games and has run 5K in 13 minutes, 20 or something. And I'm thinking, wow, this is like, like I said I would pay for this experience so we went out we had a seven eight nine mile run I got to know Chris really well I went there's some tickets for the match you and your dad all week come and watch when you want he went lovely he went mum's cooking some dinner later come around so I went around there she had a bit all like this potatoes food lovely cake I mean I'm thinking this is unbelievable so I went to Terry I went magic mate I said I said, I'm in Ireland next week.

40:22Same again. That's amazing. So literally, I've kind of created all these friends and this little bond of running mates. And basically, I'm very good at getting comfortable when somebody's asked. And the minute they invite me around, I'm like, shoes off, up on the sofa, remote control. And I said, the football's on the other, the boxing's on. They go, do you want to watch it? I go, oh, I'd love to watch it. And bang. So I've got the telly. I'm making the tea. I'm very good at getting comfortable in other people's houses. It's brilliant because you've created a lovely community feel and you've got new friends and you've also got this wonderful hobby.

40:59And you say that, because I was intrigued as to how you ended up loving running, but as you just said, you don't love it. And I think it's really important when we look at hobbies or things that can help us that we're not pinning everything onto it, that we've got to feel complete euphoria. Because you say even when you're practising snooker, it's either for pain or relief. So the pain is the punishment. The relief is you're creating some sort of safety with that kind of practice. Do you experience the same with running? Because obviously physically it's painful. Mentally, it can be quite torturous.

41:32Do you look for that in new challenges that there's got to be a sort of a pain pleasure ratio? Yeah, I mean, when I say pain and relief, a lot of why when I play snooker, I would only play just to see if I still had it. And I said to Steve Peters, I said, it's fucking driving me mad. I said, because I'm going there and if it's not there, I'm frustrated. And if I go there and it's good, I'm scared that the next day I go there, that it's not going to be good. He said, so how can you enjoy your practice if all you're going to get is pain or relief? Relief that you're playing well and pain that you're not playing well.

42:03He said, so that's got to go out the window, mate. He said, that's not champion thinking. Champion thinking is I'm going to go there, do my job. He said, because if I'm doing an operation on the kid and I'm thinking, things ain't right at home this and that and i mess up he says that ain't good he says so you've got to be the same he said when you go to that table it's like i'm just here to pop balls turn into a robot whether it's good or bad it doesn't matter because when you get on the start line the lights go on the crowd come on you're going to perform he says so let's not worry about the forms good and bad that's you know that's just life he said so but if you're going just to sort of you get confirmation that you can still play or you can't play you're never going to be in a good place so I've kind of learned that searching for something is not a good thing to do just go out do it if it's shit it was shit if it was good it was good who gives a shit tomorrow's another day I'm going to enjoy my dinner I'm going to enjoy whatever I've got to do they're the most important things and I only do that with snooker because snooker like I said gets into my bones with running.

43:05I'm not a good runner. I love it. I'm keen. I'll get out there and I'll do my best. And if I come like 100th out of 200 runners in a cross-country race, I'll feel like a champion. You know what I mean? But if I come 100th out of 200 in a snooker competition, I'm going to think that's a complete failure. So they're completely two different things. But, you know, I've learned to just enjoy and just give him my best. I'm giving my best now. I'm giving my best when I go home later tonight I'm going to give my best when I get up in the morning I'm going to just give my best in every situation it might not be brilliant but I'm going to show up and I'm not going to fucking moan and I'm not going to like you know scream I'm not going to put like let's just get on with it do you know what I'm saying and and like what will be will be you know and and it's kind of it's a lot better way to get through because I can be 100 % confident that I can do that but I can't be 100 % confident I'm going to play well every day that just doesn't happen but I can be 100 % confident I'm going to do my best.

44:05And even if I don't feel good, I'm still going to do my best. Do you know what I mean? We had a photo shoot here this morning. I was absolutely knackered. And I thought I could sit here sulking and I'm tired. And I was like, no, just fucking give it your best. And I said to him, I've done my best. I said, I felt a bit, he went, no, you was great. And I said, you know, you know, but sometimes you can feel a bit sorry for yourself. Moaning. I don't want to be a moaner. No, I get it. And do you know what? I think I needed to hear a lot of that. And I'm sure a lot of people out there did, because I think we're culturally taught to pin everything onto winning success, doing things well.

44:38But like you've just said there, it's a really treacherous path to walk when you're pinning feeling good on only winning and feeling bad on losing. Because I can do it even about a podcast again. I'll go, that went well. Now I'm allowed to feel happy the rest of the day. Or, oh, that was a bit of a shocker. Now I've got to feel shit about myself for the next four or five days. And And it is, you waste time and it is utterly pointless. So I think it's really an important note in any, not even sport, in anything that you enjoy doing or that you want to do well at, is just to sort of take that pressure off and just go and do your best without wondering what the result's going to be.

45:16Absolutely. You know, that's what I say about Usain Bolt, because when I watched him, I went, that's who I want to be. Whether he was stacking shelves in Tesco or whether he's running Olympic 100, that is who you want to be. I don't want to be the fellow there that's stressed out or pent up and he might win it but he still ain't that he doesn't look like he's enjoyed it and for me you want to feel like I want to look like the guy that's actually enjoying what he's doing win lose draw whatever I want to still come out and go you know what I actually enjoyed that because I spent a lot of time winning and not enjoying it so I have had that privilege if you like of winning a lot and not being happy and I've had that privilege of not winning so much still doing all right but being happy because I've got the right balance and I went I'm not prepared to win a lot but be unhappy anymore so I'm more kind of like about life's a marathon it's not a sprint and if I want to get from here to there and feel all right I've kind of like got sometimes you've got to turn the dimmer switch down on certain things you know if I've got a lot going on I've got the snook I've got the book I've got the documentary I've got my kids I've got Layla and I've got this it's like they all can't be on full blast I've kind of got to go you know what the book's important this is important Layla's important.

46:24Snooker's got to take a back seat. So I turn the dimmer switch down. I don't turn it off. I just turn it down and I allow myself to go, you know what? If the results ain't great, it's all right. I can turn that one up and then turn these other three down. But it's juggling. It's like, how do you juggle it? But I don't want to be that person that tries to do everything but ends up hating everything he does. Because that can happen as well, you know. And we've all got busy lives. And sometimes it's about playing about the dials a bit, you know. Do you think to be the best at anything, you have to endure great pain?

46:56Because, you know, I watched that Usain Bolt documentary and loved it. And he is, you know, he enjoys or did enjoy what he did very much and he enjoyed the races. But there was a lot of pain in the training, in the dedication, in the sacrifice. Do you think you can be the best without that? No, I think you have to, you know, there's some people like the athletes. they like the feeling of discomfort they like when they when it gets uncomfortable and that pain hits that's when they start to go i'm really enjoying this i ain't one of them i'm not into physical pain when i'm running i'm thinking like this is getting a bit hard here but what i can do is i can take on a lot of mental pain so snooker is not like a physical sport but it's a very mental sport but what i'm able to do is take on a lot of mental so like when my agent i sat down with one day and I went I've got this going on that going on this and that and he looked at me he went he said I don't know how you do it he said I couldn't live your life I went really yeah I went really he went no he said I couldn't do it mate he said I you know and I went all right but we've all got the ability to take on a lot of pain at something Usain Bolt can just smash out 200 meters after to run with a tire behind him and he can go yeah that and he gets off on it you know, I get off on maybe mental pain and I'm able to kind of go, you know what, I can deal with that and come through it and be stronger for it.

48:17So I think you do need to kind of, I don't want people to think that like quit on life. Now, Steve Peters always said to me, he said, no, he said, I'm not saying you've got to quit on life. He said, but what I am saying is you don't need to burn up all this energy. He said, like, you know, 10 minutes before you go out and play, you switch on. He said, and when you switch on, we want you focused. He said, but the minute it's over, you put that cue down, you switch off. He said, and it's a skill. And I think that's what Usain Bolt was able to do. He could switch on, switch off, switch on, switch off.

48:48That's something you can kind of learn. But I definitely think to be successful, you need to kind of, you need to graft it out. You know, you need to get in the trenches. You need to put that time in. You need to make the mistakes. You need to foul a lot. Do you get what I mean? Like I said, we spend 90 % of our life failing, but our failing is still not failing. It's just we just come up against an opponent that was on fire that day. We've all got things where we kind of go, you know what, that weren't great. But it's part and parcel. Steve Peters always said to me as well, he said, if you want to be a snooker player, you've got to accept the ups and downs.

49:24He said, if you want snooker in your life or you want running in your life or whatever you want in your life, he said, you've got to accept the ups and downs that come with it. Otherwise, don't do it. And I went, I like that one. Well, it's good because we can easily all look at people at the top of their game and think, oh, it's all right for them. They're lucky. They're smashing it, whatever. It's like you don't get it without the pain. What I also like learning in the book is the time you ensure you have in the day to get an M &S scone. Well, that's a Sheffield thing because obviously it's sort of like, Like, I think, like, Sheffield is 17 days of what my mate calls it, smothering yourself in mustard.

50:04Because, like, it is fucking evil. He said, I don't know how you do it. He said, but it's like you're just smothering yourself in it. And you just kind of got to go through it. So I went, okay, I'm going to have to go through it. So I have two rules. I don't practice before any of my games because all I'm going for is pain or relief. So I take that out of the game. I've done my work. Another 10 minutes on that practice, I ain't going to make a slight bit of difference. So I put my iPhone on, I stick my fucking only falls and horses on or whatever it is. I put my feet up, put the kettle on and me and my mate, we have a great 45 minutes just chatting.

50:37There's no stress. Another thing that I like to do is have my scone and my clotted cream and my jam. I go, you know what, that is going to get me through two, three, four hours. And it's like a little thing that it's like it's my little treat to myself. I love it. You know, it's like some people like go out for a coffee with your mate and you just enjoy that time with your girlfriend or your mate. and you go, you know what, I'm only having a coffee sitting out in the sun, but why am I feeling so fucking good? You know what I mean? So it's like incorporating little things like that in my work. You know, that little coffee in that room and watching TV and having that scone is while I'm smothering myself in mustard.

51:10So while I'm getting the mustard on, I might as well have a bit of scone and cream just to sort of like, you know, it's like tug of war. You know what I mean? I love it. There's something just so perfect about a scone. They're just the best. They are amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolute heaven. I get through probably 25 scones in 17 days at Sheffield. Sometimes it's two a day. That's on a real mustardy day. You've got to go in for the double whammy. Oh, mate, sometimes I've got some left over and I go back to my room and I'm having two of them and my mates look at me and I'm like, I don't give a fuck how this makes me feel.

51:48I'm running in the morning. I love it. I love it. Oh, my God. Ronnie, it's been so good talking to you and it's made me think differently about a lot of things, actually, talking to you, about my own, selfishly, about my own life and how I think about things and that reward sort of system. I don't know. It's given me a lot to chew over. So thank you so much and good luck with the book. It's brilliant and just great to talk to you. Lovely. Nice to speak to you too. Ronnie, honestly, that really made me think differently about some stuff in my own life, That whole pain relief situation, which, oh my God, I hadn't realised how much I can fall into that trap until I finished reading Ronnie's memoir, Unbreakable.

52:34I often really seek relief in practising, honing my skills and getting better at things. But also that can slip into sort of self-punishment when I don't give myself breaks. It's really interesting. and also I think became starkly aware of how I often don't allow myself to just enjoy things so lots to reflect on thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me Ronnie I bloody loved that Ronnie's memoir Unbreakable is out on the 11th of May and for more book recommendations by the way I'd love you to come and join the Happy Place Book Club we're on Instagram at Happy Place book club that's where you can find us and of course we have our usual happy place instagram at happy place official for more feel good stuff go check it out massive thanks again to the brilliant ronnie to the producer anushka tate at rethink audio and to you you are absolutely ace

53:42Thank you.