Sarina Wiegman: Leadership, failing, and puffer jackets

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that understands that every single one of us is a constant work in progress. Today, I'm chatting to Serena Vigman. There was a period around the World Cup 2019, and in the conversation I had with a couple of players, I just didn't get out of it what I wanted. And then at that time, I've worked with sports psychologists all the time. So I talked to her, and she said, well, you'll have to ask better questions, more open questions, and just don't answer, just keep asking questions. and when I started doing that, the conversations really changed and you reinforce and you keep practising and think, oh, the connection gets so much better.

0:45You start to understand the person in front of you better too. Serena is widely regarded as one of the best coaches in women's football history and I would say in football's history. Her rise to the top of the coaching world began after her own successful playing career and she's had an immense impact on the game as a player, a coach and crucially a leader. Previously coach of the women's Dutch team Serena became England's head coach in 2021 and led the team to their first trophy as champions of the women's Euro 2022. Oh my god that was such a moment. It felt like just one of the most electric moments of sports I've personally ever experienced for so many reasons.

1:30Unsurprisingly, she's won Best Women's Coach at the FIFA Awards three times. And now she's written her thoughts down in a new book, What It Takes, my playbook on life and leadership. Getting to sit down with Serena a few weeks ago was a total joy. You'll hear in this chat just how keen she is to always learn more, to change tack, to be prepared to fail in order to reap the biggest rewards. I know I certainly learned a hell of a lot from her mindset and I really hope you do too. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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4:00Okay, here it is. This is the show.

4:25Hello, Serena. Hi. I'm so buzzed to talk to you today. I'm just buzzing with excitement. I've got so many things that I want to know. And I loved reading your book. Oh, good. That's good to hear. I really loved it. Not only does it chart your phenomenal career, but also there's a tonne on leadership, which I'm really interested in as well. But before we get to that, I think it makes sense to go back to the start. So you being a kid in the Netherlands, loving football, showcasing a real natural talent, but it being impossible to join a club at that point, so much so you had to cut your hair to look like a boy.

5:00How much do you think the injustice that you felt as a kid during that period motivates you today to see positive change in women's football? Yeah, I think at that age, I wasn't really aware. I just wanted to play football. And my parents said, if you want to play football, you're going to play football. But I knew I had to look like a little boy. my twin brother we started playing together but I was not really aware what was really going on when I got older I became more aware of things and then you feel a lot of injustice and yes that motivates me but most of all the love for the game and the love to to connect with people is what made me do what I'm doing yeah so I guess it's that like there's obviously the passion the natural love for the game then there's always going to be that injustice until we see total equality between men and women's football how do you turn what I'm imagining feels like anger even from me on the sidelines I feel that sort of sense of anger how do you turn that into passion yeah and motivation yeah to be honest at the moment I don't feel that anger I think we went through a whole development and I'm well I'm very privileged and I that I lived through the whole development and like when when I was seven there was it was not accepted there were no opportunities or whatsoever But over the years, which is about 45 years, things changed a lot.

6:23Where we are now, so many things have been improving and that's just really good. But we still have a long way to go. So we need to keep working on it and we need to keep addressing it, that there's more equality. But I think we're going into the right direction. We really are. You say in the book, unless we do something extra, it could take 20 years to see that proper equilibrium within the footballing world. What is that something extra? What needs to happen next? Yeah, I think, well, lots of things need to happen and all together. I think the game is growing a lot. But for example, like last year when the player sent the letter that equal access to sports or football for girls.

7:07I think that's a huge step I think we need to put more effort that girls have access to those things and also in football the facilities, the support that girls get to play football or to do any other sport so it's much wider than just football, we need to put effort in it, I always compare it with when you're down in a football game you need to give more effort to get it equal and it's exactly the same So for younger age, girls need opportunities in every level, I think. And then at the later stage, like the academies, which lots of things are being done from the FA and the clubs too, they need opportunities to get the facilities that girls deserve also to get to their highest level and have that opportunity.

7:54But also again, also for girls who are not the best, they need good facilities too, to enjoy themselves. And then when you come to the senior level, Yes, you see the Women's Super League is really developing, international football is really developing, but we're still talking about equal facilities, support, all these things that are being addressed all the time and we need to keep addressing that. And one big thing is also get more women involved in football in whatever role they can be. And for me, in my role as a coach, I just hope that more female coaches are going to be working on the highest level.

8:31Yeah, I mean, what you've done in terms of visibility for females in the football world, as an outsider to sort of witness that level of change from when you're working with the Netherlands team to working with the England team, the Lionesses here, there's been a huge sort of shift. It feels like from my point of view, I mean, that must feel as well as the hard work and the effort that you've got to put in to ensure that your teams are doing the best that they can. That must feel incredible. You're history making. You're changing how women are seen in the world of sport. Yeah, I'm not always aware of that.

9:07I know. I'm here to tell you that is a fact. Yeah. Well, of course, I noticed it because the world around me changed how they approach me, of course. but I think so many people have worked so hard to change the world and you know when I stepped in with the Dutch national team there was a fundament already and people who were before me did a great job and so then at the time I came in there was already so many things done that I could just continue doing that and and yeah very fortunate we we did really well and when I came here too I think the team was already really good so many people had worked so hard to get the team to that stage and I just tried to figure out what they still needed to get to the next level and well then everyone knows what happened afterwards and then you get so much visibility so that's also then you get the visibility you get the the yeah the stage and then you when well then I feel responsible to to share things and and hopefully to to help a little bit but I think the players do too and that's why I also think we need more female coaches to also inspire the younger generation to grow.

10:17I mean you were having a conversation with Lucy Bronze that you talk about in the book where you came to this conclusion that success drives change which you know that's what we've visibly seen over the last sort of five years and seeing the Lionesses win the Euros I mean that was just this moment of pure elation and I felt I don't even know what I can't even describe it this visceral sensation of you know I've got a daughter I've got a stepdaughter and it felt so meaningful on so many levels even outside of the footballing world that women were being seen in a completely different way but coming to that conclusion which is a brilliant one success drives change that does mean more pressure for you that you've got to keep that level of success there just to get anywhere near seeing some sort of equality between men and women's football yeah yeah what we always say is we have to perform to become visible or to stay visible and then you have the platform to address other things and I think that's also really in this generation of football players that we all know where we came from where we come from and what we want to change and we know now by being top athletes and having this stage that we can change the world in a positive way for women women in football but also women in general and girls in general so that's a very strong purpose we have too but it starts and it always finishes with performing at the highest level so well that's the pressure but it's also very good passion to have to move on and yeah that really thrives and gives motivation yeah it's not just about winning then it's about creating cultural change and seeing change for future generations That's like a whole other layer that I don't suppose the men's team are ever going to feel that because they're already all eyes on them and they have been for a very long time.

12:06So I guess that can be totally motivating for you as well. Yeah, it is. I'd love to talk to you about crowd culture, because that, again, as an outsider is something that I've certainly noticed that, you know, when you go to a men's football game. And also, I think what's really spurred on this line of thinking for me was recently watching the David Beckham documentary where you see the absolute abuse that he got in that World Cup saga, getting a red card. The amount of abuse that was thrown his way and mental turmoil that he went through and that it became very normalised that the crowd would chant things about his wife and throw out awful insults for, you know, one mistake that he made.

12:45and also we've seen over the years racism and all sorts of horrific things being held from the stands. I mean, it doesn't seem that way in women's football. It seems whenever I've watched it on the TV and I've not been to a game in real life, the atmosphere feels kinder. The atmosphere feels more unifying, that everybody's there with a shared purpose, that it's about the game, that it's about the excitement, that it's about experiencing something together rather than against each other. Is that a true illustration of what the differences are? And do you think that women's football can actually change the culture, the crowd culture in men's football?

13:25Yeah, well, there's a couple of questions in one. Yeah, I think, yes, you see different crowd, like you see lots of families. Yes. And I think there's international football, too. So lots of families, girls, boys, and it's very friendly. And that's really great. We already saw that the last international match when we played the Netherlands in Utrecht. Before the game was very friendly because we all know each other. Then in the game it was really very competitive. And after the game it was fine too. And also the fans, it's very inclusive. The brutalness comes in the game. Like when LJ got, Lauren James got the red card.

14:04But there's more social media that comes into that too. That's not good. and it's lots of it it's very anonymous and I just hope people stop doing that because realising what that does with people it becomes so personal and it's football and we're all humans just you know like David Beckham like everyone else so that abuse we just try and take it out and I hope that in the crowd that it's going to stay the way it is because it's really what I think sports should be unite people and being yes everyone is included and everyone's welcome. Yeah, it's so, it feels like a totally different experience watching a women's football game.

14:46And I sort of feel even watching on the TV, having my kids watch, I'm like, yeah, this is fine. You're not going to hear any like sea bombs thrown out or like terrible language, it's going to be all right. It feels, it definitely feels a lot nicer. Saying that, you know, we've got all of this beautiful progress and amazing improvement that you've been totally at the helm of. But, you know, you say in the book, and we can still see the many ways that football is still stuck in its ways. There are still huge things that need to change. We can even look to the World Cup recently, and you mentioned in your acceptance speech when you won coach of the year, you brought focus back to Spain's win rather than the controversy that was surrounding Rubiales and the unsolicited kiss to the Spanish team member.

15:30I mean, there is still a long way to go in terms of, know that wouldn't be normal if it was the men's football team and I think most people were quite horrified about that they're really ingrained cultural problems that we need to still address in a very male-dominated industry how do you navigate that yeah well I think we need to keep addressing these things we like you want to see what the growth and you want to see the investment that's been done. But as we say all the time, we're not there yet. And the Spanish team had addressed things before. I think becoming world champions and that what happens, the system they want to change.

16:12That's also then in the women's game, we have to support each other to say we should celebrate their win. Like they played such good football, unfortunately for us, that they did in the final. but we should celebrate that and we should celebrate the players but the attention was not to that and we should put the attention to that and at the other side address those things and then make that change like influence that change and keep addressing and I think that helped where you can support you have to support but also in other countries all the countries also went to the World Cup they addressed a couple of things too and it has to do with facilities with everything they need to perform at the highest level.

16:55Again, we have a way to go worldwide. Do you feel respected as a woman in your highly esteemed position in the football world by the men around you, whether it's in women's or men's football? Yeah, I do. I do. I think I'm in the very nice circumstances that in England I feel very, very respected. Since I came in September 21, I've felt so good. conversations we have it's all you know it's valued it's being listened to it's equal the facilities and the support i get from the fa and conversations we've had it's just really good yeah um so i'm in the lucky circumstances and i think also england wants to be yeah wants to to be like one of the well trailblazers up there to show the investment and moving forward to take the next step in the game.

17:47I mean, there's a question that you ask in the book, or you don't ask, you present it. It's one that is often very patronising about, could a female manager work with the male football team? Of course. But there's still that strange mental perception, probably more for male football fans, that they would be perhaps unaccepting of that. Yeah. I think it's all the time, it's a society thing. Yeah. We're not used to seeing women leading men in football. And that's definitely going to change because there are women everywhere. There are women in government, women are leading countries. Why couldn't they lead a football team?

18:26It just has never happened before. And I think that's just a matter of time. And I also think that sometimes it's underestimating what environment we work with the women. Because you work with the best women worldwide in the best facilities with the best staff. Like the staff I have around me, there's so much quality. The players, like the tactical knowledge of the players, the commitment of the players is just such a great level and so enjoyable to work with that it's not always, it shouldn't be better to go to the men. That's another discussion. Yeah, exactly. Well, I guess that's going to be bespoken down to the individual and what your own goals are and where your head's at with it.

19:08But please don't leave the Women's England team. please ever um i mean another moment that i think many of us cringed about was when you were again accepting you were you were given the award you were accepting your award on stage and the uefa president warned you that your award was very heavy before he passed it to you i mean that again felt like perhaps a an unthought sentence he hadn't really perhaps thought that very well through before he gave you a award but i think it is small nuanced moments like that that make us all step back and go wait a minute that would never happen to a male manager collecting an award yeah well i haven't thought about that to be honest but yes well i was just thinking what am i going to say i was ready to to say something yeah yeah well it just needs time it does it needs time and there's room for progress and you know you've taken on one of those jobs to really push us through it looking at the leadership traits that are needed you go into this in depth in the book and i think leadership is such a specific thing and something that is way more complicated and nuanced that any of us who aren't in that position could ever begin to imagine and I think reading your book really gave such great insight for me personally into how much responsibility you hold and tactical thought that's involved etc what would you say is absolutely key to being a successful leader oh there's just one one answer I think successful leader at it's also a time in this time is different than it's like 15 years ago I think for me a successful leader is someone who well of course you need a very clear vision but you really connect with people the connection try to connect every people try to get to know each other a little bit so you understand behavior because coaching is influencing behavior and and then you try yeah get that connection because football brings us like brings us together and everyone is so talented and that that's what brings but then it's really the case that you bring people together so we perform at the highest level and that has to do with connections of course the clear vision and communication but first the safe environment you create you know everyone can be themselves within the framework you have of course because you can't just you're in an environment where you have to perform and we go one direction is trying to win the next game but then you save environments get connected It's make sure you know each other good enough so you can understand each other better and you can also give feedback.

21:39Yeah, it seems so clear from reading the book how much you care about your players and the time that you've taken to get to know them and to really understand who they are as people, not just players. And there's one moment in the book where you say at times you don't feel cut out for it because those moments where you've got to disappoint a player by telling them they've been overlooked in preference for another player is devastating. How do you cope with that? Yeah, well, first it's devastating for the player, of course. The one who gets good meals, of course, very happy. And the one who doesn't get the good meals is very sad and disappointed and probably emotional.

22:15It's just this is the part of the job. It's also my task. I just know you have to be clear you have to have clear messages and at the moment you have like a bad news it's just a message because it's really emotional for them too and yes I always think that well I want to do that really good because I want to treat them with respect and being honest and clear too but that does something with me because I feel for them I know how much effort they put in it and how really eager everyone is to make the squat so yes that's that takes a lot of energy out of me but I know I have to do that job and I know how I want to do that to be really clear clear and honest because they don't have it doesn't help them to be unclear and not give a an honest message and also you've experienced it as a player you know those feelings painful very painful it's also part of stop sport it's not honest it's never honest and um so yeah that's just part of the job and you know you've got lots of player input into your book as well where players from both the Dutch team and the England team talk about their experience of working with you and you can certainly see the difference of when the England team talk about you because there's this one comment that keeps coming up which is such an interesting cultural difference probably between the UK and the rest of the world and it's the fact that you're very direct yeah and we are obviously bloody awful at being direct and we beat around the bush and sort of um and uh and get very fidgety and it's just culturally a really strange idiosyncrasy that we all seem to have that we can't be direct with people and either maybe ask for what we want or set a boundary and say no but that seems in most other parts of europe certainly something that is almost second nature how did you navigate that coming in and noticing those cultural differences with the team yeah well you bring it now really like it's all the way there and all the way there But yes, that is what we know.

24:16So what I did before I came in, I tried to get the main things that I really should know before I would come in. Because, of course, one of my goals starting here as a manager is that I wanted to know the culture and that I wanted to connect people. So I was like, can I connect the people in England just as good as I did in the Netherlands? But while the Netherlands, you know, that's my own culture. It was very recognizable for myself. and yes it's very around the bush at moments but it's also very polite and it also has to do with being respectful too and the directness of the Dutch sometimes is a little bit mixed with being rude direct is not rude you can be direct which I would say is clear clear and honest but also bring that respect and show some empathy too it's just the way it's communication and how you communicate things but I believe clarity is one of my values because I really think clarity will connect actually better because you know where you stand and you always know what you've said because you have been clear yeah so you can refer to you don't think oh what did I say there and there because when you go around the bush as you said then you might think oh what did I say yeah totally I mean I I can even look like outside of my professional life in my actual life at moments where I'm not clear with people and it always ends badly there's no other option it always ends badly because no one knows where they stand yeah and there's confusion that can lead to resentment and in your profession there can't be any margin for that there has to be clarity because there is a clear end goal yeah yeah and well and when there is no clarity but sometimes there is no clarity there's a situation where you can't have clarity but then you tell them there's no clarity and that's the clarity so you just it's just about clear communication yeah and giving context um so but but i do think in the team from what we try to do and of course i the staff like i don't do that all by myself we do that together with the staff i think players talk a lot more and we ask them their opinions all the time we don't judge and and we want to have their opinions the same with the staff so when I started when I gave my opinion straight away then I wouldn't get back I wouldn't get anything back because then say okay the boss said this that's also English you talk about the boss a lot and but I thought okay I have to change my communication so I have to ask questions for first before I give my own opinion otherwise everyone goes with my own opinion but that doesn't make me better it doesn't make the team better and we have a clear vision on how we want to play how we We want to treat people how we want to train.

27:00But we discuss every day. And if we give all the arguments by choices we have to make, then you can make better decisions, which is better for our performances and also better for the players' performances. And that's what we have to do to help the player to perform at the highest level. Yeah, I mean, you constantly are in the book when you're talking about your relationship with the players, you're encouraging that feedback, which perhaps they hadn't been so used to before. and again you know Lucy Bronze talking about your dynamic in the books is that you don't take anything personally and that might again feel like a very natural thing to who you are as a person your personality trait but I think for most people that's incredibly challenging that concept to not take very direct feedback or it could be criticism or healthy critique to heart you know I would say that I'm I've got better over the years because I've had to because so much of my work is in the public and you've had to do exactly the same but I think I can probably still find myself in those moments where I feel a bit bruised a bit overly sensitive about someone saying something to me do you think you've got better at that or how do you learn that yeah I think it has to do with confidence too so when I started oh I definitely felt offended at moments and I felt heard and I'm pretty sensitive to but over the years you get so much experience that and of course it helps them when you perform well when you did well with teams when and over years you get so much experience in life too you know outside football inside football and I think that really helped me too but what I also did I talked to so many sports psychologists I read so many books you know you just learn you get more confidence trusting yourself then you learn a lot because you read a lot you talk to people all the time yeah then you become better and better in it so there are sometimes I think hmm okay but then don't say anything listen take it get the emotion out and really listen to what they say listen between the lines too and I think I just became a lot better in that I think that's a really good bit of advice even looking outside of a professional life when you're having some sort of disagreement with someone or you're trying to find middle ground not to instantly snap and react which obviously we've all done over the years and situations but actually that pause is vital to get the emotion out of it to really hear what they're saying and to then think about how you might respond to that situation it's definitely not an easy thing to do but you know I think listening to you speak it certainly sounds like something that you can practice and that you can actually cultivate as a skill certainly if you want to look to work in leadership it's probably one of the most imperative skills you could have to lead a team yeah and I did I did learn like there was a period around the World Cup 2019 and I in the conversation I had with with a couple of players I just didn't get out of it what I wanted and then at that time like I've worked with sports psychologists all the time so I talked to her and she said well you you'll have to ask better questions and more open questions and just don't answer just keep asking questions and that was so helpful and I read a book about that too and when I started doing that the conversations really changed and I just then you reinforce and you keep practicing and think oh the connection gets so much better well with I had the before I had a good intention too but I really wanted to get my opinion a little bit to the player to support her but that didn't work you have to ask questions open questions and listen and what you hear then, ask the follow-up questions so you get everything out.

30:44Then you start to understand the person in front of you better too. Yeah, I guess then the conversation goes off on a completely unexpected tangent because if you know you're trying to get a certain thing out of a player and they're not delivering it, it's probably because they're not thinking what you're thinking and it's something entirely different. And I guess that's... And they feel valued more too. Yeah, yeah. Because you ask questions all the time, you listen, And so they feel respected that they can tell their story. It's so interesting how so often we make so many assumptions in our head about what someone's thinking, feeling, experiencing, rather than actually bothering to ask or to dig a bit deeper.

31:25I think, again, looking at working as a team or even like living in a house with other human beings, whether it's a family or friends, we make so many assumptions about, oh, they're this, they're that, or they're thinking this. And actually, we haven't taken the time to do that line of questioning with big periods of listening. Yeah. It's really important.

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33:48Another thing that seems absolutely essential is remaining calm. Yeah. Oh my God. Not something that I'm naturally good at. Again, I'm trying to cultivate this skill. At times, I'm probably better practised at it than others. But I think many of us, again, struggle with finding some sense of calm when things, maybe not even a chaotic, but just feel stressful. how have you managed to get to a place where you can deal with an injured player a goal that you hadn't anticipated from the opposing team a change of lineup from the other team last minute things that throw your plans your you know exceptional preparation into absolute chaos how do you remain calm again experience as a player I wasn't that calm but becoming older and more experienced in life I became calmer but I also practice that so meditation breathing yoga I think that really helps and talking to people and I think it also helps preparation when you have a vision on things then you have strategies and then how you want to play things like also your own strategies how you want to stay calm so there's more things going on and and then when you have your plan with your team then and you also try to plan okay what can we expect so you have had experience with it but you also know okay I did everything I've done to make it as good as possible and now we have to go that in combination with experience and doing the meditation doing the visualizations go under the yoga breathing that really helps and sometimes inside I'm not that calm but I just keep I can focus pretty good in games i'm just really really focused and really in okay what's happening now and i have contact of course with this is with my colleagues also about what happens in the game we just focus on we tell the players you have to focus on the task that's what we have to do too because we are there to support the players in the best possible way so if i'm not calm i can't observe good enough and that's my job and if i'm not calm what would the players think yeah they might think okay well what's she doing she's she's panicking so why then what they could panic too so I am so much calmer than I've ever been but I think that has to do with all the things I just said yeah I think experience practicing and having your plan panic can be quite contagious I think in situations you know certainly in your line of work where like you just said if you're panicking that just breeds more panic for everyone so even if you're not feeling it you've got to illustrate a sort of aura of calm so that everyone, it's like a herd mentality.

36:38Everyone's like, this is a calm situation. We can deal with it. Emotions and panicking. I think when you're panicking, you're totally not in the now. No. And like football is emotion. So suddenly you get emotional, but you have to come back to your calm observation state again. And that's what you have to do all the time. Yeah. Just like recalibrate. So you let yourself feel the emotion, but then there's a baseline that you have to get back to. Yeah. It's interesting because I think when we're stressed we often feel oh it's probably quite habitual depending on maybe our upbringing or where we grew up or whatever it might be that you know what was modeled to you you copy that so if something's stressful that you might be a bit flappy if you know your your carers or parents were a bit like that but actually all that does is make things so much harder because like you just said if you are calm that is where you are able to be vigilant thoughtful about something and much more focused on the problem to then get the solution yeah exactly well that's what you have to do well you know that's what has to do with the range you probably yeah if you're if you're panicking you get in this state then you can't observe anymore and you just have to observe and yes and because that's your job yeah and i guess allow yourself to feel relaxed which is tricky to land on that no you're not like it's completely normal so we We played the World Cup last summer.

37:58Of course, it's completely normal that you're a little bit nervous before the game. Yeah. I am too. But I'm not going to push it away because it would be strange if you wouldn't be nervous at all because it's the highest stage. Everyone's watching you. There's 80 ,000 people in the stands. And you play a very good opponent because you're at a World Cup. So, of course, it's exciting and brings a little bit nervous. But that's completely normal. But you just bring it back. What do I have to do? how do we want to win? What's our plan? And what's my role in that? And that's what I bring up. That's what my focus is on.

38:32And then you come back. That's where you're practicing all the time. Yeah, yeah. So, okay. So before a big match like the World Cup or the final of the Euros, can you sleep the night before? Yeah. You can? Yeah. Well, I can sleep the night before, yes. There have been some games that I can't, that I had more problems to sleep. But like when you get to the stage, you come to the final, so many things have gone so well. And everything is so set that you're ready. And yes, of course, I was nervous and excited at the same time. But yeah, I have become pretty calm too. Yeah, well, you've done the prep and you know everything's in place as much as it can be.

39:12And then the rest is unknown. You've just got to go with it. Another thing that is vital in your role is to be someone that is extremely approachable, which every player you've ever worked with seems to say in your book that you're incredibly approachable. They could come to you at any time and talk about very real things that are going on for them. Worries, concerns, anxieties or otherwise. Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the podcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about.

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41:04Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast. How do you create boundaries around that? Because that can't, I'm imagining be just a free-for-all that anyone can approach you or talk to you at any point because you've got stuff going on that you need to be focused on you've got things outside of work that you need to also give attention to so how do you how do you navigate that being a shoulder to lean on but with boundaries in place yeah I learned that too because when I started as a coach I was always and always whenever a player would come to me or anyone in in my environment I would just drop everything and start to help that person but that didn't work for me because then you're always giving giving giving but sometimes you need to sit down yourself and process things and decompress a couple of things to move on so i don't think the players ask too much but when i'm not available when it's really urgent really urgent i'm always available yeah but when um when it's not like really really urgent and I'm doing something else or I'm not available I just ask them depends on whether we're in camp in camp I'm basically always available outside of camp then I text okay is it really urgent or can we make it important for tomorrow and talk through things like that I'm doing that a lot better I have to because the agenda is really really full with the changing world around me too and and it's not like players don't call me all the time you know you also like sometimes they go to other to my colleagues to talk they know we just tell them all the time whenever there's something you can reach out to us we are here to support you and sometimes to reach out to the sports psychologist or to one of the assistants so they know they can do it and for some there is a boundary to do that and for some they come they come to us very easily they just know we're there for them so having you know it's a big responsibility having players that you also personally deeply care about as well as the extended team that you're working with constantly and under the spotlight in the glare of the public eye do you reach overwhelm do you find you reach points in life where you think gosh it's just all too much yeah well it changed so much that sometimes I think oh this is a little bit too much um but then again what I try to do is then get my agenda a little empty and just go to the beach or have those moments and I think you just keep learning that too and i'm just at the moment i'm really really careful with my agenda and i have to say no so many times but i also feel responsible you get so many questions and i feel responsible too to share to help but i just can't do it because it's too busy and i am my priority because if i'm not doing well how am i gonna be a good mom a good a good partner or a good coach for them so that's really what you have to put on you have to put yourself on one to be fresh and fit to do your job or to support as good as possible so it's hard to say no but over time you you really learn it yeah it's not always nice no but i just have to i think also i don't think this is a generalization i think it's probably actually really accurate that most women don't put themselves at number one most women just again probably through the generations on a societal level have been taught that you take care of everyone else and that you end up somewhere down the bottom of the pile.

44:28Well, that's what I did. And you're exhausted. Yes, over time you learn. So yes, I had moments that I was exhausted. And then again, I talk to a lot of psychologists, I read a lot of things. So people tell me, you don't take yourself seriously. Or serious, seriously. So first you have to take yourself. So that's just also fine help. and get feedback about yourself and oh yes, I have to put myself on one so it's going better and better and then you're in a better place too so life becomes more enjoyable too Yeah, and then actually you do have more energy reserves to help other people which feels at the time completely back to front and we're so just conditioned that we just go, oh, are they okay?

45:12Are they okay? I actually totally recognise because I am very caring and listening to you, I think you have the same Oh my God. Whenever I, like, honestly, it's so on my mind because I was just, before this today, editing a book I'm working on and I actually suggest, you know, all the activities in the book are because I bloody need them more than anyone. Like, write a list and where are you in that list? And I'm like, oh, bloody hell, I'm at the bottom again. But, you know, we are so used to doing that and making sure that, you know, have the kids got the right thing for school tomorrow and is everyone at work happy?

45:46But that's good too, because you want, you have to be for your kids. Of course, of course. and you love your kids. But you've got to have room for you in there somewhere and that's what I think we totally forget to do and certainly at your extremely high level of work and all eyes on you, you've got to make sure you're all right otherwise you wouldn't be able to deal with the pressure and the stress of it. Yeah, exactly. There's one bit of advice that you gave the team, it was actually when England were playing the Netherlands and I'll quote you directly here, you say, actually I don't give a shit if you make mistakes.

46:15I sat there, yeah. Which is such, and you were wondering, should I use the word shit? I asked them, can I use it? And they said, yes, you can use it. Okay, I don't give a shit if you make mistakes. But it's such a valuable piece of advice in any realm because I think we're all so worried about failing and especially in world-class sport, no one wants to fail, especially in that public domain. But you were giving your team permission to still have winning in mind but make mistakes. That's such an interesting bit of advice. No, I think it's the most important advice you can give. so you play to win you don't play to prevent mistakes because when you play to prevent mistakes you don't take action it's not fun anyway and it's about fear of failure then and I think I always tell the players you take action and your action can go brilliantly and your action may go wrong when it goes wrong you try it again and you learn from it but if you don't play to make mistakes you're never ever going to do something really exceptional too so just yeah you have to do that and because then you get freedom to to go and life and football life is not a game well it's a little bit game but football is is a game of making mistakes so just play yeah to play yeah and did you notice that particular game an energy shift or a change in attitude yeah yeah because i saw they were playing with a fear of failure and I thought, okay, I hadn't seen that for a long time.

47:49And then, you know, you see, don't take action. They play with and let someone else play forward, things like that. Was that because they were playing the Netherlands, do you think? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. Well, at that point, the Netherlands was, of course, the European champions. So I don't know. But at Hafton, we spoke about it. And I had to have a strong message. So I said, get it off your shoulders. I don't know what's on your shoulders, but get it off there. And just go and play. I don't care if we make mistakes. And that's, I think, one of the best of our... You can give anyone.

48:23The kids, too. Like, play as a kid. Kids don't think about making mistakes when they're the age of six. So play like a kid. Yeah, too right. And we need to give ourselves permission to make mistakes. Yeah, that's the thing, too. So you give permission to everyone to make mistakes, but when you make a mistake yourself... Well, that's the thing we need to do, too. Be kind to yourself. I know. Are you quite forgiving of yourself if things haven't gone to plan? No. I'm learning that too. Me too. I'm telling too much. So that's the self-talk and the positive thought. I think you're really occupied with that every day too.

48:54I am too. It's hard. It's just the self-regulation. Yeah, we've got to be nicer to ourselves and let ourselves trip up, make mistakes, recover, grow. But it's so easier said than done. It's a really tricky thing. but I do think the more I learn about, I don't know whether we use the word well-being or even mental health, I don't think any of the tools and the advice given works unless you like yourself. I think unless you've got a foundation of, it hasn't got to be like euphorically love yourself, but you're just forgiving of your mistakes. You're okay. Otherwise the other stuff doesn't work. I really believe that.

49:31I mean, the Euros for you, as well as being the most sensational time and a total career joy for you, was bittersweet because your sister was extremely ill during the tournament and sadly passed away. How did you give yourself the time to process what was going on, to grieve during all of that that was surrounding your life? yeah that well that was of course was very sad very sad periods um well she she she got ill right before the olympics when i was still with the netherlands and then of course that year in september i started in england and throughout the year we got bad message bad message bad message and actually in june so the last month she was really ill when we knew we knew she was going to pass away so i spent every minute i could with her together with the closest family and we just had It sounds really sad, but we had a blast together.

50:27We just shared everything. It was so valuable. And we just celebrated live every day we could be together. And, of course, she was so sad when she passed away. She was my best mate. But then in the tournament, she said, well, you go out there and go win it. And I said, well, if necessary, I'll sit on the crossbar on the post. I said, oh, you better do that. So in the tournament, you have to park it. And some moments it will come up. But I had some strategies and some things that I could manage those things. What were they? I had, well, the bracelets. I had a candle I took with me. Listening to specific music.

51:09So just got moments in the day that I could just relieve a little bit those things. So the tournament actually went pretty well. But it was there all the time. I'm just very unconscious. After that, things came back really, really in a different way or tough way. But then after two minutes, yeah, then you, it's done. You're very happy. And of course, then the morning starts too. So that comes and that goes. And yeah, you need to take that time because you have to take that time to, yeah, to say goodbye kind of. So yes, I had some very good hard moments. but you need to take time to mourn. Yeah.

51:50Especially when I'm home because that's an environment where we were together a lot and we had contacts even more. I think that's part of life too. That's also why I shared it in the book. You know, it's not all good and it's not all fun. And at any moment, you just have to find a way to get through that and take the time to be really sad because that's part of life too. Yeah. And you're going to say, okay, now I can be sad and the next moment I can't be sad. In the tournament, you have to but you can't just push it away. So I'm not pushing it away, but at moments I'm parking it. At other moments you can give it a go.

52:24Yeah, you say that on the day of the Euros final, you felt really quite emotional that day about your sister. The day before the final. Day before the final. Everything came back. Yeah. And you spoke to the team psychologist on that day. How did that help? Oh, massively. Of course she knew at some moments she would check in and that was really good. But at that moment, all of a sudden, everything came up. And I thought, OK, I need to cry. But of course, you don't want to cry. Well, you know, when you have to cry, but not when you are preparing for a World Cup. So we just talked with it. And then, you know, you have to embrace it a little bit, too.

53:02So take your moment, get it out, give it the time to get out, and then move on. And actually, at the day of the final, after the final, I saw people crying. But I didn't have to cry. I was just very, well, I just found it really unbelievable we won it. Yeah, it's amazing. And have you found, I mean, I've had some pretty hard-hitting conversations at times on this podcast about grief and people losing loved ones and all sorts. And it's helped me really learn a lot more about grief as well as my own experiences of grief over the years. And it always seems to be the fact that it's just not a linear process.

53:40It's not like every day you feel a little bit better. It's not like that at all. There's waves where it undulates and it's deeply awful one day and then the next day, weirdly, you're able to cope. Where are you at with everything right now today? Yeah, it's exactly what you say. It's like the horse says the body keeps score. So it has to get out of there. But right now, it's just one sad feeling at moments. and like I don't have that all the time but some moments and you get remembered or you get home and and and I've seen my my my nephews well nephews they're adults now which which are her sons and then connecting with them and then it feels such a big miss like it like a gap in and that's just a very deep yeah deep missing feeling it's hard to describe and it just hurts it just hurts But yeah, then you give that the time and that comes and goes.

54:39I don't think that will ever leave, actually. No, no. I don't think it can, can it? When it's someone that is so close to you and had such an impact on your life, it's, of course, going to just be with you forever in varying degrees, depending on which day. One thing that I found really interesting reading the book was the fact that, you know, the position you're in now, you have got all eyes on you for all the right reasons and and the team members and great changes are being made in the world of female football but you actually don't like the spotlight so how do you handle that yeah yeah that's that's pretty hard because yeah I'm in the spotlight all the time yeah and I want the team first so it's all about the players but I know that I'm leading the team so you know I'm there all the time too over time I did I did feel like also responsible that's also the reason why I wrote the book together with Jeroen of course that I feel also feel responsible to share things and to help the game and to help women and to inspire people to share which means that you're in the spotlight so when we wrote this book I said I don't want to be about me all the time when you write a book it's about you so you have to accept that too so I'm just finding a way except like it's also I know where we come from we spoke about before where we come from so it's so great and I feel so so thankful that I can that I've been part of this whole journey and seeing the growth of the women's game so it's very exciting where we are right now like when I played we were happy with 500 people watching which was basically family and friends yeah and now we play in full Wembley all the time and so that comes with it too so that's really really great but Yeah, sometimes I can hide, but you can't always hide.

56:28So you have to connect that moment too. And I'm just finding a way there. But as I said, I feel responsible. So then you have to take the floor kind of just to help moving forward. Yeah. And you can't please everyone because now so many people want something from you. So that's saying no too, but also giving things and sharing experiences. Yeah. God, thank God for you, Serena. Thank God. And I've never wanted a puffer jacket more. having seen you in that England puffer. I was like, I've got to get my hands on that puffer jacket. That puffer jacket is sensational. Everyone talks about that jacket.

57:04It's really nice. It's the best. It's the blue and the pink. It's heaven. It's been a total joy talking to you today. I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you so much, Serena. Thanks for inviting me. What a bloody privilege it was to get to chat with Serena. I mean it. I'm absolutely getting myself one of those puffer jackets just so I can pretend to be Serena. The thing that got me, and I don't want to bring it back down to superficial things too much because she's an exceptional leader, an exceptional sports person. But to see her on the sidelines in that puffer, I was like, if I'm wearing that puffer, surely I can look and feel that powerful.

57:45Come on. And it's getting a bit colder outside. um serena the biggest thanks for your time and your insights god what a moment i love meeting serena tick that off the list what it takes my playbook on life and leadership is out on the 9th of november i wonder if there was anything in what serena shared about leadership and managing people that you want to take on board in your life my god there certainly was for me whatever your job might be, come and have a chat with us over on Instagram at happyplaceofficial. I'm back with you next week, but for now, a huge, huge thank you again to Serena, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio, and to you.

58:26I'll chat soon.

59:02We'll be right back.

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