Saying no: more boundaries, less people pleasing!

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Today, how to say no. Guys, I think we need this one. I really think we need this one. So many of us find ourselves people pleasing and not setting boundaries. We need this. I think about boundaries as limits that you set around how you allow other people to engage with you. I have my boundaries with my parents. I know what I can take and how I can deal with them for my own, you know, mental and physical well-being. Running a company, you can't have a certain amount of boundaries because if it needs you, it needs you. but I also think that you can't use that as an excuse to not set any boundaries the rest of the time.

0:42Now I don't go anywhere and that is through choice. I like doing what I like to do and I like being at home. Right how good are you at setting boundaries and saying no to things? Some of you might be brilliant at it and if so well you might not need to listen to this or you might find it interesting anyway but I'm sure there are many people out there that like me have struggled with this. It's a topic that I talk about a lot but particularly around this time of year when work can feel really busy. There's lots of festive social events going on and you may well be spending extended periods of time with your family over the holidays, which can be lovely, but also, of course, challenging.

1:20So yeah, Christmas time. It can be gorgeous and smelling of cinnamon and twinkly lights and all that jazz, but it can also be really tricky because we are sort of forced into these situations that we might not otherwise be at other points of the year. And that might mean having lots of members of the family together. Sometimes that can cause conflict or sometimes you know that two family members, you might be in that dynamic, don't particularly rub along well together and that can be really tricky at this time of year. Maybe you've got a blended family like I have so there's all sorts of to-ing and fro-ing as to who's going to be doing what each year at Christmas.

2:02It's bloody complicated. Also when you bring work into the equation. I can be a right workaholic and I can definitely find it hard to switch off when I do have downtime. And I'll think to myself, well, I could be cracking on with writing or brainstorming something or getting some emails done. And sometimes you just have to say no and actually set a boundary and just stop, actually, which I can be quite terrified about. I think the other thing that needs to come into this conversation is gut instinct because we live in a really noisy world where we're continuously bombarded by exterior opinion and news and ideas and shoulds and shouldn'ts and we actually start to lose that connection with what we know to be true.

2:52It can be really hard to get in touch with your gut reaction to things but it is usually there buried beneath loads of other shit. Also you might find this time of year that you're a bit burnt out. Oh god, I definitely am without a doubt. All self-inflicted because I'm trying to do too much as normal and do extra special things for the kids for Christmas and get everything work-wise tied up so I can take a bit of time off and yeah, I'm definitely slightly on my knees at this time of the year. I actually wrote a novel which covers a lot of these subjects. It's called Scripted. It came out this year in June and because I feel so strongly about this topic, I really wanted to create a character, Jade, who finds it excruciating to say no and excruciating to set boundaries and she has to learn some really tricky lessons the hard way.

3:45I won't say any more because I would love you to read it and enjoy it if this topic feels relevant to you too. So look, today we're going to learn a bit more about boundaries from some brilliant Happy Place guests. Oh, Melissa Urban. Blimey neck. It was a masterclass talking to Melissa Urban. I've never met someone with such brilliantly robust boundaries. She is the queen of boundaries. She's going to tell us what they are and how we set them. We're also going to chat to life coach Michelle Ellman. She talks about why we're often reluctant to set boundaries. That's part of our YouTube series, What Is How To?

4:23And the brilliant Kirsty Gallagher, who we love, a moon mentor and soul guide. That's her actual job, everyone. She chats about radical responsibility. Then Leanne Rimes on navigating those pesky family dynamics. Grace Beverley, who's obviously a hugely successful influencer and entrepreneur, on setting boundaries for work-life balance. And Michelle Keegan on saying no to social events because some of us just want to be happy little hermits at home. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

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5:42These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast. Summer's heating up and so is the action with Chumba Casino and 2311 Racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley, and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino, the online social casino packed with free-to-play games like slots, blackjack, and more. Jump into summer at chumbacasino.com and score your free welcome bonus. 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins.

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6:27Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

6:51So I think about boundaries as limits that you set around how you allow other people to engage with you. So I think one of the common misconceptions about boundaries is that they're about controlling other people or telling other people what to do. And that's not at all the case, a boundary tells other people the actions that you will take to keep yourself safe and healthy and preserve the relationship. Which sounds amazing. And as we know, there are so many people out there, thousands of whom you've spoken to about boundaries and who you've helped guide and coach. I'm very much someone that still needs to work on this one.

7:29I'm definitely getting better with age, but it's something historically I've really struggled with. Why do you think so many people struggle with this in their lives? And why do we end up so boundary-less? Well, you know, I think women in particular, and then especially moms, have historically been conditioned not to have boundaries by the patriarchy, by stereotypically rigid gender roles, by religious influence, by diet culture. We have been taught to be small and to be compliant and to put everyone else's needs and comfort above our own. And when we do advocate for our own needs or our own feelings, we're told we're selfish or we're called far worse words.

8:12So we have been societally conditioned not to have boundaries. And I think they're very rarely modeled for us. You know, they're not taught in schools. They're not taught in the workplace. My parents and their parents didn't model healthy boundaries for me. So it's very much one of those, you know, life skills like credit management or time management that nobody teaches you, but you realize becomes incredibly important once you become an adult and often only in moments of crisis do we realize that this is a skill set we really need to build. Oh, my God. I mean, so massively. I could pull out so many different scenarios in my life over the years where I haven't put boundaries in place.

8:56And it always ends up in disaster of varying degrees. But I think if we start at the sort of less severe outcomes of not having boundaries, it's due to us simply being people pleasers. and I can again put my hand up and say I've definitely been a people pleaser during probably the earlier years of my life maybe a little less so now and you say in your book which I have right here the book of boundaries you are not a people pleaser and we people please because I don't know maybe we don't want to be disliked by the other person we don't want to be rejected or we fear that we'll upset or hurt the other person there is a huge amount of discomfort when setting a boundary.

9:37How do you get over that? There is a huge amount of discomfort. And again, we have been conditioned to be nice. I was always the good girl in school. I was the quiet one. I didn't cause trouble. I got good grades. And as we get older, we feel like if we are nice, if we tell the other person what they want to hear, or we sacrifice our own comfort or feelings to keep them comfortable, that that will make them happy. And then by default, that they will like us, that they will approve of us. And now our entire existence, everything I do and say in my behavior is dictated by what someone else expects of me.

10:11And that's a really tenuous place to be. And it is incredibly uncomfortable to advocate for yourself, to say, these are my needs, these are my feelings. And if I express this limit to you clearly and kindly, and you can meet me in these limits, then our relationship will be so much more open and so much more trustworthy and more respectful and I won't have this dread and anxiety and be carrying around this sort of sense of avoidance. But what I say to people often is, yes, the idea of setting a boundary is uncomfortable, but so is what you are doing now. Holding your tongue and keeping the peace, never ever saying no, and holding that resentment and doing things begrudgingly and avoiding certain people and that sense of dread, that's hard too.

10:57And that pattern doesn't get you anywhere. Whereas expressing a boundary has the very real potential of changing that pattern forever and helping you release all of those negative feelings. Yeah, like you say there, right? So I think many people listening to this will really find that story familiar of being the good kid in class or being the good sibling in the family, the peacemaker, whatever, and there being an element of reward to that. It feels like that has just been exacerbated because of social media. And we now see that if you play by the rules, if you work to the algorithms, if you keep your mouth shut and go along with what is favourable, you will be liked, you will get likes, we will be able to quantify how liked you are.

11:44So if anything, we're even more sort of brainwashed by it today than ever on a level that's so subtle. We're not like that's kind of almost me working this out on the spot now. Like, wait a minute. This is just like everywhere that we're being bombarded with this message that if you're if you're nice and you're good and you keep your mouth shut, everyone's going to like you. Yes. If you work the system, you will be liked and people will approve of you, except the system sucks. The system keeps us playing small and doesn't ask us to add ourselves to our own list and insists that we continue to put everyone else's needs and comfort ahead of our own.

12:20So I don't want to work the system. So the simplest boundary and the first boundary we all know is the word no. So if you put a kid in the arms of a stranger and they're not happy, they will scream. Even if they don't have the vocabulary, they know where their boundaries lie. And then we learn something called theory of mind, which means that you become aware that other people can think. So not only can you think, but you know someone else can think. And if someone else can think, then they can think badly about you. And that's where saying the word no becomes a little bit more complicated because you don't want other people to think badly about you.

12:54People pleasing is the worst. Yeah. But I think most people out there, I mean, certainly I fall into this category, can be a real people pleaser. We want to be liked. We want people around us to feel comfortable. So putting boundaries in place can often challenge those fears. Oh, absolutely. people pleasing is the opposite to setting boundaries and I was a people pleaser and actually if I'm being really honest I was a pushover at times because it's that thing which women are taught to do which is put everyone else first and then if you have time and energy left then you can do self-love then you can do self-care but by the time you've taken care of everyone else there is no time and energy left and so you're always bottom of the list and if you ever stand up for yourself you ever communicate your needs you're told you're difficult you're harsh, you're direct.

13:38All of these words are words that dissuade women from communicating in a way they want to communicate and actually communicating how they feel in the moment. Let's get to basics because it's really hard to start setting boundaries when you haven't before. It's a totally alien concept. It feels deeply uncomfortable emotionally, physically. The whole thing is torture. Yeah, so I think there are two routes. Some people find it easiest to set boundaries with strangers. So it's the waiter who asks if your food is good or the hairdresser who asks if you like the haircut or some people find it easiest to start with the people closest to you so your best friend someone who you can tell anything to and whoever you find it easiest to and the area of life you find it easiest start with that but I always want people to remember that setting boundaries is like learning a language and the first time you do it it's never going to be perfect so trying to set a perfect language or be perfect at communication in general often is the obstacle that stops us from starting in the first place.

14:36So even if you set the boundary in a clumsy, messy way, saying something is always better than saying nothing. Obviously, you've got to deal with the other person. So like you said, especially when it's a new concept, when you start saying no, or you start explaining how you feel in certain scenarios, the other person is going to react in any which way. It's totally out of our control. They could be totally pissed off. They could be angry. They could be quite dismissive and go very quiet. There's a whole plethora of options with that one. How do you not make that personal? How do you let them have their reaction without you then crumbling?

15:10So I think if you are already a people pleaser, that's going to be a very hard thing to mitigate. Yeah, you have to remember their response is not your responsibility. And that no matter how polite you set a boundary, someone is still going to think you're rude, no matter how kind, soft, gentle, they can still think you're mean. And a lot of the times their perception of your boundary is their own relationship with the boundary. I remember a time in my life when I didn't have any boundaries and every time someone set a boundary with me I thought they were angry I thought they were harsh mean aggressive the moment I started setting boundaries I was like oh thank you so much for letting me know oh I'm so proud of you thanks for telling me it's all about whether they have a good relationship with their own boundaries do you know what everything you're saying rings so true because I have certainly seen those cycles in my own life with feeling like I'm stuck in a similar position but with different people in different circumstance I've brought my baggage to a new circumstance and I think you know I'm very honest on this podcast I tell everybody what I'm going through and how I'm feeling without too much too much worry or shame but I end up going right I need to do more for this person help more give more and I throw my everything into it but without any boundaries in place and then I go I feel resentful I don't like this anymore I didn't sign up for this that cycle has it's got a lot better but for years that played on a loop and got me in real pickles and I ended up actually turning into a person in this cycle that I didn't like very much I didn't want to act in a certain way but I I wasn't making those essential changes to break that pattern and break that cycle so I think it's important to say that once you've set these intentions you can't just think oh the moon's going to sort all that out no no no there's it's hard work this is then where hard work starts and that's again why lunar cycles are so beautiful because you set the intentions on the new moon you've then got two weeks as the moon waxes and gets bigger and you can watch the moon do it in the sky you can we i honestly even believe that we've all probably looked up for moon in the sky it takes your breath away because i do think the moon reminds us of where we came from it reminds us that we're part of something greater it reminds us that we're all connected and so as the moon then waxes and grows bigger in those two weeks exactly what you just said as the moon is growing in the sky she's giving us the light and the life and the energy to do what we need to do to get what we want so if for example it's the new job send out the cvs talk to people let people know that you're looking do anything and everything you can to let yourself be seen and shine like the moon is doing and just say yes say yes do anything you can to get towards where you want to go so those intentions you set keep them in mind keep them as your true north and intention is also really beautiful because without intentions it's like if I try to get you to go on a journey now with no map you just end up wandering you're just wandering you don't know where you're going someone might say hey Fern come this way you go that way with them you don't like it you go that way with them when we've got an intention it's a guiding force your thing today has been a lot of picking on yourself you're not doing good enough you're not doing this so one of your intentions then when we get the new moon on sunday might be i want to be kinder to myself i want to give myself a little bit of a break yeah i want to learn just to let myself off the hook a little bit more those might be one of your intentions i intend over this next lunar cycle to be kind so when you notice that little voice you can catch it and be like hey no no no we're not doing that today and then what we want to do then is we want to almost flip the switch so when you're having that thought about you've not done enough you want to sit there and consciously find well actually you have done enough because already today you've done i mean you tell me when we arrived what you've already done today what you've done today a normal human couldn't do in a week like i know i'm packing it in but i i i definitely get hung up on detail and like pushing myself to the point where you know looking for that elusive perfect that doesn't exist in all capacities i think you're absolutely right my i may have assumed that my new moon excavation and subsequent intention should be to do better but actually i'm listening to you going no it's i need to be a bit nicer to myself just be kinder take the pressure off yeah don't search for perfect no and then you're going to achieve that tell yourself what you're doing well i mean an amazing thing to do is at the end of every day look yourself in the mirror and be like you did that really well today yeah you did that really well today actually you did that thing and it was quite brave and you did that we don't celebrate ourselves enough no because i think also society has created this bizarre infrastructure where we're constantly waiting for someone else to tell us that, to tell us you did good or even what you're doing is okay.

19:54I think we're losing our confidence and our intuition to go, no, I'm doing all right. And I think, you know, some of that is very superficial in terms of how advertising works and just the world that we exist in with messaging and you could try this and you'll be a better person or whatever. So we've lost that sense to just be all right with who we are or next level up, like you're saying, to celebrate ourselves. We wait for occasions like birthdays or weddings to do it, but this can be a moon-triggered thing. So every full moon, celebrate yourself. Look at the first two weeks of the cycle. What did I do well?

20:31What did I achieve? What did I say yes to? Where was I brave? Where did I go after something I wanted? Where was I a bit kinder to myself? What have I done? Let me celebrate that. And then on the flip side, the full moon will show you where you got in your own way. Because 99.999 % of the time in life, it's us that's in the way. Yeah, we love to blame other people. We love to. It was you. It's you. You caused all my agony. That's why I didn't succeed or do whatever it was I went to do. But when we do that, we lose all power to change it. If it's your fault I'm feeling a certain way, I have to wait for you to do something differently before I can feel better.

21:09Because when I retake about that power and I go, well, what was my part to play in this? How did I allow what Fern supposedly said or did today to kind of trigger me? What was it in me that it upset me? It reminded me of that time when I didn't get picked for that team in school and it really brought all that back up again. I then have the power to change that because I've taken back the responsibility for it. And so even in that, when we allow it to be their fault, his fault, her fault, parents' fault, jobs' fault, boss' fault, we have to wait for that thing to change then. When we take back that power and go, okay, what was my part to play in this?

21:44and we take that real radical responsibility, then we've got the power to change it. And so when we sit with that and we go, OK, yeah, I didn't say yes to going to that party because I thought when I got there no one would speak to me and people wouldn't like me. I didn't go for that job because I kind of thought I wouldn't be able to do it and they probably wouldn't want somebody like me, so I didn't send in the application. And then I didn't make that phone call because, well, I was just sabotaging a little bit that day, so I didn't. We can start to see them when we're getting in the way. The market's uncertain.

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23:44All right, let's get back to it. Here's Leanne Rimes, Grace Beverly, and Michelle Keegan. My stepdad actually just passed away, and my mom is now alone, and so we're learning how to navigate, you know, our new dynamic. And, yeah, I mean, it's possible. And it's also possible to still, like, I still have my own, you know, I have my boundaries with my parents. I know what I can, how, how and how much I can take and how I can deal with them for my own, you know, mental and physical well-being. And I can, I give what I can. And, yeah, we all, you know, look, they were learning too as parents. Like we all, our parents all screw us up at some point.

24:24And that's, that's why I don't have children of my own. You've got stepkids. I have two stepkids that hopefully I haven't screwed up too much. And it brings stuff up. Like I'm a stepmom and I've got kids as well. Yeah. All of it. You know, I was a step-mom before I had my kids. Okay. Oh, wow. And I think that you just go, wow, okay, I see how hard this is. And I've thought a lot about, especially how much my mom did. And rather than focus on the things that might have been challenging, I've actually got deep appreciation for so much of it. And I think it does change your perspective. It does. How old are your kids?

25:02so we've got honey who's a rex who's 10 lola's 18 arthur's 21 oh wow a whole spectrum you really do yeah my stepsons are now um 20 and 16 and they were first two and six when they were in my life wow um yeah it's it has been amazing to to help raise them but you know it's i think i had this like i had this thought of like i i have there's so much trauma in my lineage and so much trauma in my life, it's like I wasn't ready to kind of pass down with my own children, like, you know, through the womb. And I know how much gets passed down through the womb. So it's like, OK, I wasn't I wasn't ready yet.

25:40Now, at this point in my life, I think I would be totally ready for that. I just don't know if I want to. Yeah, we're awesome to you. We have two that are, you know, almost like completely grown. And it's like adding a look at each other. And we see kids and we're like, oh, my God, they're so cute. We'd love to. And then like, do we really want to start over again? Yeah. You know, I think I'm for me, like, you know, we talked about not having a childhood. It's like I'm kind of I've been mothering myself for a really long time and and with my step sons. And I feel like I've had I feel like there's been a lot of mothering going on, even though I haven't ever had one of my own.

26:13Well, you're so right. I think, you know, this is something that you again stumble upon when you're doing any sort of work on yourself. Inventory is you've got to start parenting yourself. you have to because especially when you're a grown-ass adult and your parents aren't parenting you've got to parent yourself through challenging times and it's something that isn't really talked about or we're not really taught that at a certain age you're going to have to start parenting yourself and knowing how to get yourself through situations it's um it's a tricky one that it is a tricky one and that's where you know you talk about being softer and kinder to yourself It's like, you know, where your parents fell short, you know, we have those from a very early age, you know, everybody who was around us from parents to society, that those become our deep embedded narratives.

27:04And so it's like, okay, well, where they fell short, how can I now correct that for myself and be kinder and gentler and more loving? And so, yeah, that's a daily practice. Yep. It really is. It sure is. And with step parenting, how have you approached that knowing, you know, like you say, we've all, our parents have all imprinted something on us, whether negative, positive, bit of both. And also the sort of blended family dynamic is a tricky one. It's so tricky. It's a really tricky one. And you've got to navigate it, setting boundaries. And I think looking back to the start of my own step parenting journey, I definitely didn't set enough.

27:45I didn't feel confident enough to say what I was comfortable with or how I wanted to do things. I think that took a lot of time and incremental sort of building of confidence. How did you begin that experience of step parenting and how do you think it's changed over the years? Oh, it's totally changed since I was so young. I was in my late 20s. And yeah, I don't know if you felt this, but at the beginning for me, like the first three years, I felt kind of like an outcast, you know, in my own family. And so it was you don't set a lot of boundaries, healthy boundaries, because you just want once again, you just want everyone to like you and you just want everybody, everything to be calm.

28:25And then you realize, like, I mean, that's just a crazy dream that's not ever going to happen. Like, here's all of these different personalities and you just kind of have to respect people's ups and downs. and know, you know, for me, it was like, okay, how can I show up and be loving and accepting even when people are throwing tantrums and, you know, there's issues and kids are throwing tantrums, parents are throwing tantrums. Like it becomes, you just, for me, it was like, okay, how do I just come up, show up and be as accepting? And also, like you said, set boundaries and be like, you know, there is a certain level of respect that has to happen for us to be able to, to be blended.

29:05and still to this day like there's that that's hard it's hard it's you know because those boundaries can be crossed and you have to kind of I think you have to reassess it's just kind of like situational and you know as the kids get older like they they kind of go in between and and out of you know households and things and they yeah they make they make up their own mind about the world that they want to live in. And yeah, and they're, they're great kids. Like we've all done a really good job raising these boys and, and yeah, you're right. Like it, it's, it's interesting. They were really triggering for me.

29:45They, they showed me all the places in which I needed some healing and it was, it would have been so easy. I think kids are great. They do that with good teachers. Yeah. But the first like three or four years, I remember having this one moment where I remember very clearly, like, seeing how they like, the dynamic that we all had together was, was similar to like my childhood. And I could see very clearly, who was triggering what, and what I needed to heal. And it was a moment where I was like, I can't blame these people for my issues. And some people don't get there, you know, some people don't.

30:28But for me, I was like, if I'm going to have if I'm going to be in this situation in this relationship, I have to handle my own stuff so that I can deal with what is surrounding me. I think it's something that I like very much had to put in place boundaries wise in order to be able to kind of move forwards and not completely burn the candle at two ends and like ruin my mental health. I think that you know there's an element of the fact that like I don't believe social media is a good place for people pleasers and I'm like very much a people pleaser and then throw a business in there as well that you cannot have control over like all of the different elements like it's an absolute nightmare and you're always going to be unhappy if that's like what you're kind of aiming for.

31:09I think one of the like key decisions in protecting or setting those boundaries in order that yes as you say to a certain amount of people I will be the face of these businesses like whether I like it or not. But I think that a big decision that made that better is that when I came out of university, I basically felt like I decided my career without even really meaning to. And, you know, more based on this kind of concept of just working at what worked and just like keeping on pushing at what worked and felt like I'd become a social media influencer, which I have nothing against at all. But as I said, I don't feel like it fit within my skill set.

31:51And more so to that, I think that it fit directly in my like violation of boundaries when it comes to like being a people pleaser. And if I'm constantly relying on like having to be liked in order to make a living, that was never going to be good for me. and so like at that point I did make a decision to like like I deleted all of my videos on YouTube I moved back from posting at all like there was a good two years where I did not give anyone what they wanted in terms of like like I was just terrible in terms of content and all of that and that was like a very conscious decision I just knew that at that point I was like I will never be happy if I am running these businesses based on whether people like me or not like that is completely incompatible with how I want to live my life yeah it's completely incompatible with my personality type I would rather I don't think it's compatible for any human and I think it's really really really like don't get me wrong like it's obviously an amazing job to have in so many ways and sometimes I'll be like sitting there in like a terrible board meeting I'll be like why like you could be on a beach yeah yeah yeah with some gifted but I want Let's talk about this because you wrote a book, Working Hard, Hardly Working, which totally dives into this subject matter of being successful yet not burning yourself out and knowing what your strengths are and putting boundaries in place that you don't completely crumble and burn out.

33:14You're running three successful businesses. The onus is on you. If they're not doing well, you can't run and hide. They're your babies. You want them to succeed. Yet you don't want to hit burnout. And I think also it's a very Western, but also very British thing for us to boast about how busy we are. Some people do that, not everybody. Or just be absolutely drowning in tiredness because you're pushing yourself. And you say in the book, we are at this sort of strange point where you're either, or you're not sure if you're completely burnt out or by social media standards, not quite productive enough.

33:52Right. Some of us are just like, I don't know which one I am. I'm sort of burnt out, but also am I doing enough? I'm not achieving enough. And we're all a bit sort of lost in that maybe. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's a hugely important topic when it comes to actually like diving into where you sit within that and what our own boundaries are and like understanding that self-care is a form of productivity and you cannot have productivity without self-care, but also you cannot have self-care without being productive. Like sometimes self-care is about reaching that deadline that you said you would reach three times and now, you know, you're letting it not happen again.

34:24like there were two sides of this and it's really hard to know on social media I think one of the biggest issues is the fact that you're talking to so many people and you don't know if that person needs a little push at that moment or if they do need to sit back or whatever it might be I think in terms of what I've done to be able to get to a point where I at the moment and like you know comes in waves but at the moment feel like I've got a good balance of you know what I'm happy with it's a number of different things it's understanding that balance is not a 50 50 at all I've understood that I'm quite the type of person who like if my work is a type of thing that I've if I've set up my work in the right way then I really love what what I'm doing and like that doesn't need to be the same for everyone and some people can think that going home at seven from the office is like terrible but actually like I I love work in lots of ways and I'm really really fortunate to be in the position I'm in working on something so amazing and like why why shouldn't I love it.

35:19I think boundaries are a huge, huge part. How are you with those? I have got better and better. And I think that running a company, you can't have a certain amount of boundaries because if it needs you, it needs you. But I also think that you can have the rest of the day. You can't use that as an excuse to not set any boundaries the rest of the time. So for example, I have some really hard and fast rules around like how I spend my week. So I, on weeknights, I will only do things two days like I will not go any further than that and like if it looks like I'm free on those extra days it's I'm not free like that's time for myself and I know the second I go over that threshold is the second that everything will be affected yeah work home life personal tasks like whatever it might be I know that I cannot go over that threshold so it's a one-in-one-out process it's understanding like how I recharge as a whole it's understanding how to say no to things even if they sound like great things because you've got too many things in that week or whatever it might be a huge part of it as well as an entrepreneur has been hiring people that are better than me at what they do like your team and your business is only ever as good as the people within it and like learning to hire really fantastic people and relinquish control and delegate effectively has been without a doubt the best thing for my mental health but also for the business I think that there is you know even at a managerial level so not even looking at like the entrepreneurship kind of angle we're ingrained with this kind of fear that makes us hire people that are not as good as us like it's seen as this it's like a protection mechanism because you don't want to feel worse about yourself and you don't want to feel replaceable but actually I think that there's a huge amount of value in always always always hiring the best person that you could possibly hire and like if that means that they can take over like all of this and they can make you be able to do something else or whatever it might be fantastic I just think that like that shift in my mindset in order to be able to hire the best people we can possibly afford at any stage has been so so so important what about if your schedule gets too much obviously you know We're travelling a lot and filming days can be incredibly long and relentless.

37:37How do you make sure that you stay balanced during those times? I think it's just making time for myself. I think that's what it is. I think, you know, if I've got a full-on schedule, I would come in, always have a bath. That's my thing. That is my heaven. I need a bath when I come in, especially on night shoots. I'm not the type to get in bed on a night shoot, freezing cold. I need to warm my bones up. Do you know what I mean? So I'll have a bath. That's like TLC for me. And then at weekends, I sort of try and see the people that make me happy, like my friends, my family, obviously my husband.

38:15I'll take my dogs out. I've got two dogs who I'm obsessed with who I've had since I was 21. So they're like my babies, really. And I just spend, obviously in the week I can't see them because I'm working. So straight away on a Friday night, I'll go to my mum's, who's like their grandma. and I'll pick them up, bring the dogs home and then I'll just have a weekend at home. I don't really do anything else. I like staying in. Same. I know, everyone thinks it's boring but it's really not. It's the least boring thing. It's the least boring thing. I am a really happy little hermit. Me too. I love being at home.

38:48I never want to go anywhere because I know that being home is preferable and I will be out thinking, why am I not at home? I know, and people always think like, you always thought when I was younger, would I get a FOMO? You know when I see people out? I don't care. Nor do I. I don't care. I love it. I can't think of anything worse. If I'm on Instagram and I see that everyone's out at like some bash, I just think, thank God I'm not there. Me too. Thank God I'm not there. Don't want to be. Don't want to be. I don't want to be. I really, really can't be asked. I think over the years, sometimes, you know, this is certainly different in phases of my life.

39:22I'm now like very happily a hermit. But I think over the years you can think in this weird industry we're in and we're in different portions of it. But it's still, you know, moving in the same circles, strange, strange world that it is. That you have to play the game, that you have to go to the premieres, you have to go to the parties, you have to go to the things. Do you feel any of that pressure? I used to massively. Now I don't go anywhere. And that is through choice. Like I if I have any time off, that time off for me is quite precious. And I like doing what I like to do. and I like being at home in my natural surroundings.

39:57Same. You know, as I've grown up in the industry, I have become a lot stronger now and that's why I've sort of made a conscious decision as I have grown up and I have gotten older that I've kept a lot of my private life private and that's been a conscious decision for me. And because of, you know, doing that, I do feel a lot happier. Yeah, good for you. It's just setting boundaries, isn't it? Exactly, setting the boundaries, yeah. Because I was reading, obviously, like a ton of articles that you'd done in preparation to talk to you today And one thing that you said is that you're a people pleaser.

40:26Oh, my God, yeah. And, yeah, resonates. I think many people out there will go, yeah, hands up, absolutely like to make people around me feel good and feel comfortable and whatever it is in personal life, in your working life. So that can make it difficult to then set boundaries. If you're making decisions that you don't want to talk about certain things at work or even boundaries with your family, that can be really uncomfortable to do that if you're a people pleaser. Yeah, and I feel very uncomfortable. You know, having those conversations for me is very alien. Like I could never like pull someone up or like, I don't know, say that I'm uncomfortable.

41:06I always sort of like went along with things so it didn't make them feel uncomfortable. It wasn't about me. But I feel like, again, as I've gotten older, I have become more stronger in that field where I can step back and be like, actually, no, I don't feel comfortable. Or if I'm doing an interview and they ask me personal questions, I could be like, I don't want to talk about that. Where years ago, I just blurt things out and then read it and think, why did I say that? Yeah. You know? We've all been there. Yeah. It's horrible. With the boundaries thing, I think it is, perhaps it is something just with age.

41:38You get better at being able to flex those muscles and say, actually, I don't want to do that. Because I think otherwise, I mean, I certainly found not setting a boundary or not telling someone what I was capable of doing or what I didn't want to do would just lead to resentment. I'd end up just feeling so full of resentment that I'd gone along with someone else's desires and left myself at the bottom of the pile. There you go. There you go. No more leaving ourselves at the bottom of the bloody pile. We're not allowed to do it anymore. You know what? One thing I will say is the older I get and I'm, you know, hurtling towards, I think I'm in my mid 40s aren't I?

42:18I'm 43, I think that constitutes as mid. I'm in the thick of it and it's getting easier and it doesn't mitigate the you know discomfort and the pain it can cause but I definitely feel a lot more able to do it and I'm sure many of you will feel the same. Tell you what how about we all practice saying no to something really small this week just to start exercising that muscle. Let me know how you get on on Instagram we're at happy place official. do you know another episode that you might want to listen to our roundup of all the incredible talks at the happy place festival over the summer we had so many brilliant speakers and they talked about telling self-limiting beliefs to bugger off and to start living the life that you want to unapologetically we love it there'll be a link to that one in the show notes as well as links to listen to the full episodes from all the gorgeous women you've heard from today for now massive thanks to Melissa Urban, Michelle Ellman, Kirstie Gallagher, Leanne Rimes, Grace Beverley and Michelle Keegan.

43:18To the brilliant producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you. You're completely brilliant. Now go and say no.

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