“Self-care isn’t selfish!” How to keep fit and have fun

0:00Hello, a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Today, a celebration of the huge summer of sport that we're having alongside a little bit of motivation to move your own body. When you're on the start line, you're so vulnerable. You don't get a head start just because you won the last race. They held jobs down in the day. They were playing football in the evenings. You know, I think you could really feel that history. And those Lionesses have got a great sense of that as well, of their legacy. I'd never take a day off. Like, even when I'm bad, I'll come in the gym, train through injury, and it takes me coaches to look at me to go, go home today.

0:33I started to see self-care as something that was good and not selfish. I think I used to think I was being selfish if I actually cared about myself. Care of the soul and tenderness. If I think about athletes I've worked with, it's probably that that made the difference rather than some technique. Do not remember from 25k to 30k because I woke up in an ambulance of 30k. And I've got these awful flashes of what I think is the worst part of my personality that came out at this time. Look, like I said, 2025 is a massive summer for sport. We had Wimbledon. We've got the Women's Rugby World Cup, the World Boxing Championships, the Outdoor World Athletic Championships too.

1:15And of course, we had the UEFA Women's Euros, which the Lionesses only went and bloody won for a second time in a row. Oh my God, we're obsessed with them. I don't know about you, but I love watching these huge moments. Women's football certainly has not only made me like football, but also given me such a fire in my belly. Maybe just because I'm a woman, but also because I'm a mother to a daughter and a stepdaughter. The fire I've had in my belly has just been initiated by seeing these amazing women go against the grain to put women's football out there. They've always been under celebrated and people have not paid attention to what they're doing.

1:58and they are a world-class act, that team, showing us how it's done. Changing history, changing culture, changing the face of sport. I've loved every bit of the UEFA Women's Euros. It's been amazing. So today, I want to listen back to some of the athletes that we've had on the show, as well as a few non-athletes who've set their mind to some really impressive physical challenges. First up, broadcaster Gabby Logan, who reflects on just how momentous it was when the Lionesses won the Euros the first time round. I love the chat that we had with UFC fighter Molly McCann about what happens when you're on your period as an athlete, which is a huge topic that is not talked about anywhere near enough.

2:40And rower Helen Glover talks so brilliantly about how motherhood made her even more ambitious for herself. DJ Adele Roberts is a massive inspiration for so many after setting the world record as the fastest female to run the London Marathon with a stoma bag, which she calls Audrey. And comedian Joel Domit has had his own fair share of marathon experiences too. Finally, if all these chats make you want to set your own fitness challenges, psychologist Pippa Grange shares what she knows about goal setting from working with England's men's football team. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just...

3:21Speaking into the void. But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills. And did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers.

3:54And Zinn is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zinn nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zinn nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible.

4:30So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click Grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference in people's lives. That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Whether you're considering a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree, our teams will walk you through the process and help you get the savings you are eligible for.

5:09Furthering your education is an investment in yourself. Entonces, ¿qué estás esperando? Un futuro diferente está más cerca de lo que crees con Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

5:26All right, here we go. This is the show.

5:51Are you still buzzing from the Euros? Because that was just the most phenomenal moment. It was, and it was unexpected in a way. I don't mean that their success was unexpected, but at the beginning of it, people would say to me, do you think they can win? Yeah, I think they can win. Whether they do is another thing, but what was unexpected was the reaction. It was just so joyous and how people really embraced it. And the atmosphere in the stadiums all the way through was incredible. I'd come out into the street outside I'd wait to kind of get into a car to go home. And I didn't want to leave because people were just loving it.

6:22And that's not the case when you go to a lot of other football matches. And think back to last summer's men's Euros. That definitely wasn't the case. So all the way through, there was this lovely feeling of kind of togetherness and people enjoying the performances. And then to cap it all off, that dramatic final and what those Lionesses did. I just think it was one of the great moments in sport, really. Never mind women's sport. Never mind football. No, it was the greatest. I wept. I wept watching when the Lionesses were sort of running around the pitch and celebrating and you could feel that euphoria.

6:54I had this really unexpected sort of visceral reaction to it where I was weeping, but I sort of felt it in my bones for women and like the women in my ancestry. And this feeling and I had to really like sit and try and process it after because I'm not a massive sort of dedicated football fan. And I'll watch the big matches like many people out there and get carried away with that and the unity that that brings. But I felt this in my bones for women because it was like everybody was looking at women for the right reason. It wasn't about what they look like or judging them or their intellect. It was these women have trained so hard and all of that work has paid off.

7:33And this is their moment for us to just watch them. To add to that as well, and I totally concur with what you're saying, is also the DNA, the history of those women. You know, some of those women that 50 years ago couldn't play the game, but carried on and kept fighting and paid for themselves to play for England and bought their own kit and defied the FA saying they couldn't play. You know, for those women, for the generations that kind of did it, not even semi-professional, you know, they held jobs down the day. They were playing football in the evenings. They weren't welcome in football grounds.

8:02You know, I think you could really feel that history. And those Lionesses have got a great sense of that as well, of their legacy. You know, I mean, the younger ones, you kind of have to, they're 23, they've just played football. They don't, you know, fully, fully understand what's happened before. But some of the older ones have been through both generations. And that was really special, I think, to really feel that history coming to the fore that day. Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's been a huge shift in attitude and in, you know, how we see women in sport in general, but specifically football, because of everything that you've just said.

8:34But it still feels disproportionately imbalanced in a way. Do you think that's going to change over the years to come? Yeah, I think it will. I think what's happened is a realisation that, you know, you can be entertained by women's football. You know, there was always this narrative that, well, women are not going to be as strong, as quick, as skilful, as, you know, all those things that were thrown. We watch plenty of sport that men and women both play and admire them. Take tennis, right? You go to the slams. You don't say, oh, I'm going to turn down a women's final ticket because you know you're going to be entertained.

9:04It's a great sport. And I think what's happened is there's been a shift in lots of people's minds and a lot of male kind of sports watchers minds as well, which I think is really important because both, you know, we need men and women to both enjoy women's football. Where they realise, actually, I can be entertained by this and stop comparing it to men's football. And as my husband kept saying, well, he's always loved women's football. He comes from, he was a rugby player, but he comes from a background of kind of no nonsense, you know, and he hates male footballers rolling around on the pitch pretending to be injured.

9:33And he's like, women never do that, you know. He's like, I never see a woman doing that. They don't ever, you know, kind of do this whole drama kind of queen thing where they're pretending that they've been kicked. No, we have periods every month. We haven't got enough shit to deal with. We're not going to be rolling around if someone kicks us in the shin. It's like, are you kidding me? So all of that, I think, has lent itself a kind of an opportunity where people, clearly brands and, you know, corporate relationships, all those things are going to improve because people want to be aligned to the women's game because of all those values.

10:03and then that will help the sport to grow. I think what happens now, what needs to happen now, if this is going to be kind of more than just a moment in time, is opportunity needs to be more widespread, you know, not just pockets in the country. If girls go to school in Devon and Cornwall and, you know, up in the Highlands and Islands, they should have the opportunity, like the boys at their school, to play football. It shouldn't be something that, just because a headmaster decides it, it should be something that is widely available to all girls. So what's the training schedule at the moment? How's that going?

10:32So we are 13 weeks out. Right. A fight camp would tend to be 12 to 8. I err on the side of caution, so I'll go maybe 14. Sometimes it's a bit too long in here to be that zoned in, but I just like to give myself extra time for illness, injury, menstrual cycle. Yeah. This is things people wouldn't think about, but if you're having a bit of a bad time, you need a little bit of a day off here and there. Do you know what? It's so important to talk about the menstrual cycle. It is like elite sport for women. I think about it all the time if I'm watching the Olympics or women's football. And you're just like, oh, my God, this is something that men in sport don't have to deal with.

11:16And it's not just when you're on your period. It's the whole damn cycle and the shift of hormones. How does that affect you, especially if you're coming up to fight day and you're not feeling great? Well, we do it for a scientific reason because, say, if I have to weigh in on the Friday, so I have to make weight Friday morning. Thursday, I'd have to cut the weight, so we have to sweat off a certain amount of pounds to make the weight. But depending on what part of the cycle you're in or what phase you're in depends on how much water you're retaining. And so if I know I'm due on round about the fight time, I'm like, oh, because it means I'm going to retain water.

11:57I'm going to be more hungry. I'm going to be hurting more. And it's going to be harder to shift the weight. There's obviously not many people do a lot of, they don't delve into it enough, I think, because women in sport and at that elite level, it's just been like, yeah, just get on with it. Do you know what I mean? But I think we're at a moment now, especially with women in football, where we're really starting to learn about it. I don't know, Emma Hayes, when she got the job at Chelsea, she employed someone to really learn about that because I'm sure there was a study released saying that when someone comes on and the first two or three days, you're 80 % more likely to tear your ACL.

12:38Is that right? Yeah, so because you're just much more tighter in your ligaments and everything's a lot more, or just, you're not as bendy, you're not as flexible and stuff. So I know the older I've got, the harsher my symptoms have become. So when we're training, just because of years of knowledge and communication with my coaches, I'd never take a day off. Like, even when I'm bad, I'll come in the gym, train through injury, and it takes my coaches to look at me to go, go on today, man. Like, they'll know. I'll not know when I'm going to come on, but they can, like, Like, my face just, like, I look tired and my coach goes, did you sleep last night?

13:14I go, yeah, he goes, just rest. But where I'm doing wrestling and jiu-jitsu and stuff and you're getting thrown into different ways, we just choose not to train that for the day or two, just a bit precautionary. I've had 20 pro fights. I've been in the game for 11 years. Now, we know I'm not just trying to have a day off and I need to look after myself. Yeah, of course. I mean, I just don't know how you do it. It's unbelievable. because even if I'm doing this and I'm on my period, I'm like, oh, I just let your brain fog and you just feel a bit sluggish or you might feel really bloated. And to think about the physicality involved in what you do, I can't even imagine it.

13:53So I hope to God that there is going to be more research, more of a push for this to be taken into consideration, that there to be, I don't know, just more knowledge about it out there so that you athletes can work to your optimum. I think in what we're doing in the combat sport world, there's been a lot done with it. And I think we're just aware, like I said, when we're training and stuff, what to do. But there was people who were trying to take contraception, like take the pill to stop the period. But then they couldn't cut the weight and loads of madness. People taking diuretics to try and help them lose weight.

14:32But then that's a performance enhancer. so then they got a two-year ban. This is going back a couple of years when people were just uneducated but they're a little bit more educated now. But slow and steady, it's getting there, it's getting a little bit better. But just the hardest part is if you're on fight day and it's like you just have to push through. I won't ever wear white or wear grey because I've just got this fear of imagine coming on. I mean, I can't. It's so huge. And you know when we're talking about like maybe body dysmorphia and the way that we feel like, I'm someone who would never project me body online.

15:10Like I might get drunk online and put pictures of being merry. I choose to put that out there, but I wouldn't really put stuff in bikinis. It's just not my bag. It's just not what I'm about. But I think, imagine having to wear that little bra, them little shorts, and then you're on so you're bloated. like when people meet me they go oh you're a lot skinnier in real life aren't you than when you look like on the telly and I'm like oh thanks but I think sometimes like if you're on and that and you get the bloat and you just there's been fights where I've come on and fight more and emotionally I'm like thank god for that but then I'm just like how am I going to be now but the more education that I've done the when you actually come on you're actually able to recover quicker.

15:59It's like, it's that weak. So like, I'm not going to be as tired in the exchange. I'm going to be a little bit better, so. And it's just about, I guess, knowing your cycle and knowing your body and working with it. But again, you need the support to be able to do that and to even have it as a consideration because it feels wild that in female sport, it hasn't been a consideration until very recently. And it's such a huge thing to have to go through. I know, and I just feel now because we're voicing it, I feel like we get so much hate like are women being women again and this that and the other just like tough tits yeah we are this is biology so I've got to get there's nothing we can do about it it's a huge huge deal it's a huge deal and do you celebrate things more now so when you got a gold in Rio for instance were you able to actually really enjoy that moment and go yes a gold medal in my hands exactly yeah so that just I felt present I felt like I'd earned it I felt like it belonged to me because I had fully given myself to that experience and allowed myself to believe that that was me in that moment rather than avoiding those feelings.

17:04It definitely made the run-up to Rio far less enjoyable. I felt the pressure so much more. I really didn't enjoy the experience of being out in Rio in the build-up with the pressure, with the expectation, with the language around the way we were racing because, again, we were favourites. And it was the language was almost as if we didn't need to race because we had already won. And it was like anyone could beat us when you're on the start line. You're so vulnerable. You don't get a head start just because you won the last race. And so I got I found myself getting really frustrated with the language used around us.

17:40And actually, it was lovely and it was really complimentary. But I was like, stop talking like that. Yeah. Make people believe that we could lose because we could. And I didn't like that. I felt like we were being set up for a fall. If we didn't win, it would have been a loss, you know, a big loss. And so I didn't particularly enjoy it, but it definitely made the win feel a bit sweeter, you know, that we had kind of really come through that. God, that pressure. I mean, the pressure of, I think this is what people perhaps underestimate, the pressure of being the best at something is so immense.

18:14It's so immense. Because like you say, if you're not then the best on any given occasion, it is a huge loss. Whereas if you are the underdog or you're unknown, anything's a plus. And it has such a different flavour to it. yeah crazy and also it also is slightly reductive in terms of how much hard work you've had to put in to get to that point to be the best like oh they'll just win oh my god four years of grueling training to get to that point it feels quite reductive to talk about it in that way I think that's why the older I've got and I don't know if it's that I've got older that I've spent more time in sport that I've got kids probably a bit of everything I think my perspective on success has totally shifted and what success is for me definitely looks far less like medals but you know it sounds really cheesy but the journey is really really important how you get there what you represent what you're doing along the way what you're changing along the way is so much more important to me because if I had ended my career so I ended my career after Rio and if I had just left it there I would have been really proud of what I had done but I've done more in the last two Olympics than I have in those first two.

19:22And I think that for me, that shift in perspective of what's important and what it means is really different. Without a doubt. I mean, we haven't even got onto the juggle, the juggle of it all. And it's so, I find this conversation a tricky one in ways because whenever I've heard you interviewed before, people are almost obsessional when talking to women who are elite athletes who happen to also be mums. It becomes this huge topic where we become hungry for like how and how do you do it and how and what's the juggle like and how are you achieving so much? And I think I feel these conflicting emotions of awe because I am in awe of what you're able to do.

20:05But frustration because we don't ask male athletes these questions. There is this absolute blanket coverage assumption that if a male athlete is training or racing, the mother will be at home looking after the kids. We don't even ask them like, oh, how's the juggle? How are you managing your children and your amazing sporting career? With women, we're obsessed with how it's done. How do you feel about that? I think that it's a really important conversation to keep having because the moment we stop having it, even if we stop having the conversation for the right reasons, because we say, no, you know, we shouldn't keep asking this because, you know because we're not asking the men or because it should always be assumed that women can do it then it stops highlighting that actually it's not just there as an option for everybody no it's not easy and it's not put in place in the way that it could be so I do think it's really important to be and people do say to me oh you know do you start to feel that you know motherhood is is sort of should always go hand in hand in this kind of second half of your career and I think absolutely it should because it's a massive reason why I came back it's a huge driver for me originally it was all about kind of proving it can be done and then it was about kind of doing it with my family and with my kids but I think there's a really really kind of fine line that I've always been careful to tread in it which is I think I want to champion the fact that women can go back and do whatever they want to do when they've had kids but I also think that not everybody should not everybody should want to I never want anyone to ever feel less than because they don't go either back to work or back to their hobbies or passions there's so many different routes that everyone should take and I think the most important thing is that the option is there but that's so important in this conversation I think sometimes when we're talking about this subject it's taken in such a black and white fashion that it's like oh well all women have to find their passion afterwards and of course we're all different some people their whole life is they want to be a mom and that that feels right for them and that's amazing and equally you can go back if you've got the right support and people around you to enable you to go and fulfill your dreams and passions there's no right or wrong it's just like you say the option is so important And one of the things that one of the main barriers for women going back to work or carrying on with a career or a passion, like let's use the word passion.

22:39I feel like we're not allowed to say that we want to do something. It has to be like, I need to go back to work. If you really want to go back and do something because you absolutely bloody love it. One of the main barriers is support. That's the hugest problem here. I mean, you have managed to juggle this with your husband. Brilliant, Steve Buckshaw, who we're all absolutely obsessed with and in love with. you have this amazing communicative relationship where he's away at the moment you're juggling at home whilst you were doing the olympics he had the kids how much compromise is involved how do those conversations go how are you how are you managing to juggle that it's a huge amount of compromise and i think it would only ever work in the short term so for this paris olympics i was only back at training for 18 months before the games because it was shorter olympic cycle because of covid yeah and around the Tokyo Olympics I did a lot of my training from home and then again it was only maybe six not nine months that I was kind of back in full-time training any more than that I mean he was he was having to make huge sacrifices with his job and with his work and it's not sustainable long term for both of us to kind of have a career on hold and so it just yeah I it's kind of like I've almost found a solution because I've shown that it's possible to do but it's not a practical solution in terms of going back long term and being able to afford childcare and things like that.

24:05So yeah, number one, the fact that he was on board enough to say, yep, I'll step up and I'll help out. Number two, the fact that he has a job that he can be flexible with but it was, yeah, it definitely has a timeline how much you can have that flex. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

24:44And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert.

25:23That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference.

26:03That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Un futuro diferente está más cerca de lo que crees con Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

26:17right back to the show here's Adele Roberts Joel Domit and Pippa Grange you actually came to running very late in life so you were 37 which again I think is a really important thing for people to hear not just about running but anything thinking you can't start something a little later down the line you don't have to start something age 12 it can be down the line that you pick up an instrument start reading for the first time whatever the hell it might be but it was running at 37 what took you to running. Yes, amen. I just want to say that again, everybody that's listening. I know you know this already because of this brilliant podcast, but it's never too late to start again and to change your life.

26:54Absolutely. It was my sister actually that inspired me to run, my little sister. I just remember being lazy in bed one Sunday and seeing that she completed a race for life, a 5k that she'd done for our auntie who sadly also had cancer, who absolutely smashed it my auntie ann uh she had breast cancer and uh she's 10 years clear of breast cancer she's one of my heroes and at that time i didn't know it was for me in the future but i remember seeing my sister doing this 5k and she did it from scratch i didn't even know how far a 5k was at the time i was like is that far and then when i realized it was 3.1 miles i was like i can't believe my sister's just done that no training just done it out of the passion in her heart and I just remember slobbing in bed probably in last night's pizza going oh god you can do better Adele like that's your little baby sister you should be doing something and that's when I think I started to turn my life around and was like right no more moping anymore um get yourself out of bed not that day I probably just don't in a few weeks time I'll start this running thing but I think that's when it clicked and I was one of those people that'd be like I'll start Monday and then I didn't start Monday.

28:05But eventually I did start the Monday. Yeah. And starting running, let's be honest, isn't fun. No, it's not. It's not like all of a sudden you go, oh, I'm running 5K. It's easy. You know, it takes time, but it's worth persevering. Did you, when did the mental side of it click in? Oh, this feels good mentally. Because, you know, I'm certainly not running because it feels great physically. Sometimes I am, but sometimes I think, oh God, everything hurts, I'm quite bothered. But for my mind, every damn time I get that mental clarity or even when it's post run I'm like oh something's just relaxed mentally at what stage in your running experience do you think that hit yeah it took a long time I just started with walking yeah I got a little um stepper band off my friend and I just used that and and it had like little challenges on it and I just worked my way up so once I'd started like walking I feel like it's almost like once you want to pick one part of your bad habits you can start to address the rest and just give yourself the time so once I started walking and I was then like oh maybe I could like start to tweak what I eat and then I started to tweak what I watched and what I listened to and how that's so important yeah yeah so it was a knock-on effect but it started with the walking and started I started to see self-care as something that was good and not selfish I think I used to think I was being selfish if I actually cared about myself so I'll use anything I can now to make myself feel positive and to keep myself on track because again it's a daily practice there's a very lazy person inside of me that doesn't want to go running you said something like there's a some like a lazy sloth inside of you and you have to be like no no sloth we're running so it took a long time but eventually like you say even with the running I whinged and hated it and my first marathon my poor producer who worked with me at radio one they will tell you I whinged all the time like honestly I must have been such a nightmare but once I'd done once Once I'd got fit enough to not worry about my body, like you said, your mind's free.

30:03And you're like, oh, this is glorious. But it took a very long time. Yeah, it does. Which I think also ensures people don't give up if they're on the beginning of their running journey. Yeah. And there are some days still you think, oh, this is awful. Totally. But it's still worth doing it. Amen. Still worth doing it. So let's talk about your most recent marathon because it was only 18 months after your life changing operation where you were out there on the streets of London running a marathon with a stoma. I mean, this, and also at three hours 30. When you say that, I forget the time. What? I don't, I don't understand.

30:39Like, it's just mind blowing. And I'm not saying that with any level of, you know, being patronizing. Three hours 30 is fucking quick no matter what you've been through. Three hours 30 is like you're a professional athlete. It's my personal best. I'm like, how could I run it faster with a stoma than when I had my intestines inside my body? But that's mindset for you. And I think that's the difference because I had no business running that marathon that fast with the body that I had. It wasn't in good nick. It's even more fit now, my body, because I'm a year on. But that's mindset and that is belief and that is really going after something and committing to it.

31:20and I think that is me saying I know you've sworn a few times so I hope you don't mind fuck you cancer it's like no just no I just got myself to the point where I was like I am not going through that chemotherapy and getting this stoma and it not mean anything it's like I'm going out in style you know it's just like you did that I mean you one of your friends Ian had said to you previously running is 80 % mindset and you'd been a bit like oh bless Ian yeah sure and actually you're like yes yeah totally true yeah it's not about it's a bit about your body you know you have to have a certain level of fitness but you can still get out there and run if you know if you are able-bodied and you can go and do that but actually what's going on in your brain is more important than anything amen and I think the mind leads and the body follows yeah and I think that goes through all areas of life and that's why I hope that this book can help people whether they are unfortunately dealing with cancer or they're about to get a stoma and they're not quite sure what it's going to be like um or maybe they're not a runner they're like i don't want to run because my girlfriend kate does not want to run she's not interested in those chapters by your 330 not at all not at all i love it she knows who she is and she's cool with it i like that i like that but but i think life just throws those curveballs at you and i think that hopefully the mindset side of this book will help people no matter what they're facing you know whether it's like grief it's the end of a big relationship because I think that to to get through life and what this podcast talks about a lot is mindset and may we add on top of that the night from hell that you had before the London marathon oh god yeah I'm like which which night because Audrey's so naughty I was reading this book and I felt sick for you because I am obsessed with sleep because it's not guaranteed with me.

33:07So I get really pernickety about, even if I've got a podcast, I won't go out and do anything in the evening before because it might disrupt. And that's too much. I know I've got to address the balance. I'm a work in progress. I'm very happy to say that. I've not mastered any of this stuff, but I don't trust myself. If I go out, if I get back, I'm overstimulated and then I start thinking about things. I won't sleep. It might mess up the podcast. I don't want to do that. So I'm really like nerdy about my routine and sleep and yada, yada. I can't imagine things going so tits up the night before a marathon and you still managing to do what you did.

33:42Tell us about this awful night. I was shaking reading this before the book. Because you want the perfect night's sleep before a marathon. Without a doubt. That's all you want. You just want to sleep for eight hours. It's not a massive ask. Oh, mate. So the night before, it's a rocky era really for me, but it's because I was making it up as I was going along. there's not many people that have run a marathon with a stoma so I didn't know what to eat so I decided to eat mashed potato and porridge the night before because I thought and is that normally okay with your stoma like what yeah yeah it's palatable with a stoma so it's easy digestible food um really if Audrey had her way I'd be eating sausage rolls anything beige like any processed food is really good heaven because it's already been broken down by industry and you just almost like put it in your body and it melts away and it goes in so I thought right mashed potato and porridge oats I'll have that the night before and then I'll be okay and I'll be full of like glycogen ready to run the marathon but Audrey didn't digest the porridge and the mashed potato and decided to chuck it out my body at three in the morning

34:50and you feel breathing I'm deep breathing about this one so you feel the tingle I get woken up all the time by the tingles of Audrey so I'm like is she still in her bag or is she going wild as she managed to break the seal on the bag because what what your stoma can do is stoma bags aren't an exact science and they're still being worked on so they stick to your body with like this sticker and if you have a naughty stoma sometimes they can get the sticker off and just escape and then it's basically like having an open tap on the front of your body it just comes out and you can't control it um and yeah so I'm like the exorcist spewing like porridge and mashed potato in a fancy hotel so I like jumped out of bed ran into the shower it's doing its thing spraying it all over the shower but then my my pajamas are ruined and then it got stuck in the shower so then I had to like the shower started flooding because it wouldn't go down the the plug hole so because it was fancy it was like one of those flushed the floor showers oh you want a shit shower in this situation not a fancy one and then it all comes out from like the shower door and it just like floods the actual bathroom so I am there with no clothes on cleaning a posh hotel bathroom of like porridge oats and mashed potato at three in the morning and Audrey's just like and then you can't get back to sleep but this is again a really important life lesson for any of us on just a regular day to not write off the success of a day because you haven't slept and I used to do this all the time I'd go oh well today's absolutely screwed because I didn't sleep and it's all going to go to shit and I'd be so dramatic and actually I'd get to the end of the day and go well that was all right yeah there's no drama I did the job and everything was fine and I'm a little bit more tired than I'd be normally but it's fine you not only managed to get over that you know the would-be drama you managed to run a marathon in three hours 30 hey we haven't talked about the marathon which was a big moment of this year for you i mean you are insanely fit you set again your goals really high you were trying to go what sub three hours this year trying yep yep which is a professional athlete not quite but it is like it's a thing that everyone aims for sub three is like a thing that like it's i was really wanting to do it before i 40 that was like the big thing i've basically been working up for the last year and a half it just for lots of people unfortunately the marathon in london this year was not that day it was a really hot day it was quite stifling the heat and it's so it's just really frustrating and i just i mean it's funny to know it's really funny but i just i was on course to do it i did i did a 310 in amsterdam in the october before so i was like okay and i really trained for it my training runs went well i was like this is going to be okay and then suddenly the heat hit on that day but everyone was like we're going to do it still go for it it's going to be fine about 15k i was like this this is feeling too hard like this is should be a breeze at 15 go to the half i was like oh god i remember 25k it's 42k in a marathon and 25 i was like again this shouldn't feel this hard i do not remember from 25k to 30k because i woke up in an ambulance of 30k and i've got these awful flashes of what i think is the worst part of my personality that came out at this time what honestly so i don't remember any of it and i have a flash of me being dragged by two marathon employees to the ambulance and uh me shouting at what is people who are watching the marathon i'm just going like someone record this this needs to be documented someone record this quite angrily really which people did which some people did and then i got to the ambulance and i uh was saying to the ambulance incredible saint john's ambulance people i was like uh has anyone got gabby logan's number why are you trying to know what's happening This needs to be on television.

39:09Oh, because she's hosting it, right? Yeah. So I'm like thinking that like Gabby Logan gives a shit about the fact I'm in an ambulance. Like I think I'm more important than the 50 ,000 people who are running. Like it's the worst side of me that's ever come out. And God forbid it never comes out again. I'm a horrific human. We've all got a shadow side. Yes. We've all got it. I thought I was a nice guy. Everyone of you are a nice guy. I'm a piece of shit inside. side we've all got that side i said it'll just manifest in different ways we've all got it i was doing my first radio 2 show that saturday the saturday after the marathon and again i remember just saying to the saint john's ambulance people are like oh at least i've got something to talk about on radio 2 they're like trying to like give me an iv drip and trying to get my thing down and i all i'm thinking about is work i'm like i'm such a fucking profile i'm an absolute psychopath oh it's so good it's so good I mean you poor bugger because I know how much that means to you doing that sub three and how you know you set a goal you want to bloody do it you want to achieve it this is something that I wish I was better at in my career because I find it so easy to set fitness goals and be like I want to do that I want to do a sub three I want to I want to run this this fast I want to be able to lift this weight that's this heavy I'm so good at that because it It feels so palpable.

40:31It still feels so gettable. What do you think you learned from that experience? Because I'm imagining in that situation where you're lying in the ambulance, you could be really pissed off, frustrated, feel a sense of injustice because you've done all the training. Or do you still find the humor in it? I definitely find the humor in it. Again, it's something that's brilliant about being a stand-up. Because if something fails, then it's a story. So it's like all fuel for your next endeavor. Like it's a failure is a plus in a way. And so that's great. I like, at least you've got a story out of it.

41:08And the story is better now in reality than if I just did it. Yeah, did sub three, like done. There's no story. Good stuff, guys. You're really fit. Literally got my child to come to the finish line wearing a T-shirt that says sub three. And I did it in six hours. So embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. That t-shirt needs to be in a frame. It's like, I mean, it's up three days. To be fair, I wasn't specific in the time frame. But it's so mad.

41:42I like set it all up. The t-shirt is so extra. It's so extra because like I know the way I work and the way that my brain works during these long runs and stuff is that I needed to give myself something to be accountable for. So if I told everyone I'm going for some three hours, I'm going to fucking do it. whether you like it or not, come on. Whereas if I was silent about it, I would be like, halfway through, I'd be like, I haven't told anyone about it, so let's just do 305. That's fine. Whereas if I had that goal, I'm thinking at the end, my child's wearing a t-shirt.

42:14I've made clothing. I've made merch for a thing I haven't even achieved yet. You've gone on like Snappy Snaps website, like done the t-shirt. It's awful. So awful. The whole thing is, I don't know why I fill my life with these things. And I don't actually know what my next sort of goal is going to be. But I know that in the last... You need to have a challenge. You're that sort of person. Definitely. Because I've realized that the last month, when I haven't had like a goal, I was like, I'm just going to give myself a small rest. And I just feel just a bit like I'm missing something in my life.

42:50Yeah. So how do you do that around goal setting? Because obviously you've worked with the England team and all these amazing sports personalities. And as I said, you know, huge people that are doing amazing big work in the world. How do you let go of that, but still set goals to say we want to win, we want to do well, but without clinging tight to an expectation? Yeah, I mean, goal setting is super important and super relevant in relation to tasks or outcomes. Right. My point with this is that we think of our whole life as outcomes, series of outcomes. So, you know, if you're setting a goal, if you're about to go into a golf tournament and you've set a goal about how you want to play and you're focused deeply on the process and, you know, what you do here and what you do there and every step of that is a goal process, goal oriented process.

43:40That's fantastic. But then once you step onto the green, you have to let go, not of the process and what you do, but of the expectation about the outcome. So there's goals and there's outcomes. outcomes we don't control actually i know that's really hard to hear but we what we control is our action and the process and the effort right and the spirit or character that we bring to it we don't ever control the outcome right so you let go of that bit and you think how can i bring my particular form of talent or effort or care to this endeavor and and the difference between those two things like the goal is in sport particularly or any kind of performance setting the goals and practicing your craft and being as as dedicated and as disciplined as possible around that needed brilliant love it however you don't have to let your mind do the same thing you know you don't have to let your sense of sort of you know who you are go down the same track so when you're working with big sports personalities or teams my I guess naive approach to what you would do with the team is that you're there to make sure they win and don't get too scared going in and and doing their best giving it you know their all and not being held back by outside judgment etc but is part of your job also to help eliminate the fear of losing yeah absolutely you know um I mean it's a while actually since I've done the sort of direct work with teams and athletes.

45:19The time with England was a bit of an anomaly. You know, I was running the department in England and the men's team, it was too, by the time I started, we just didn't have time before the World Cup to find somebody who would do the frontline work. So I did it, which was lucky. But, you know, I think that there's two things that are very underrated in that kind of performance work. And I wish it was in more kinds of performance work, your field included. One thing is, I think it's bringing some tenderness into the endeavor. Like if you're going on a big adventure to win something, or to, you know, give the performance of your life, there needs to be tenderness in there, there needs to be moments of, you know, where's the moment where the struggle can be released?

46:09Where's the care? And the other thing is care of the soul so you know when I talk about care of the soul for me you've got the mind and the spirit you know the mind is a crazy thing we're all very familiar with that needs driving not not allowing it to drive you that's you know the control of that the management of that the spirit is kind of the zest the vigor and the sense of adventure that goes into it, right? There's a middleman and the middleman is soul. And soul is that sort of more ordinary, more grounded, more everyday part of us that holds our imagination, holds our possibilities and where we sort of feel that there is place for dark and light.

46:56Spirit is usually upward, onward, you know, let's go get it, you know, knock them dead kind of thing. Soul in the middle I think is so often missing in performance endeavours and for me care of the soul and tenderness if I think about all the teams I've worked in and all the athletes or bosses or performers I've worked with really if they looked back it's probably that that that made the difference rather than some technique. I think Pippa made a really bloody good point there any passions you have, any challenges you gear yourself up for have to be about the process. That's the bit that you've got to enjoy rather than focusing so closely on a singular outcome.

47:39I've not been exercising anywhere near enough recently just because life has been very bloody hectic and summer holidays and kids and all of that stuff but as I think towards the autumn I'm going to set my goals, listen to Pippa, enjoy the process, be humbled by my lack of fitness and see what happens because I know that moving my body makes me feel so much better. There'll be links in the show notes to all the full episodes that you've heard little bits of today so do go back and listen to the ones that really grabbed you. I'll be back here in a couple of days time but in the meantime a massive thanks to all the incredibly impressive people that you've heard from today.

48:17To the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, you are ace. Tennis pun not intended.

48:51If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

49:46zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games. Saints and sinners. Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths. Good times, hard times, And of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference in people's lives.

50:31That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Whether you're considering a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree, Our teams will walk you through the process and help you get the savings you are eligible for. Furthering your education is an investment in yourself. Entonces, ¿qué estás esperando? Un futuro diferente está más cerca de lo que crees con Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.