Sex scenes are liberating! Nafessa Williams on Rivals, racism, and self-belief

0:01Fearne Cotton: Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fearne Cotton and this is the show that builds real resilience. Today I'm chatting to Nafessa Williams. I remember telling myself, it's gonna be hard, you're gonna hear no, and you gotta get comfortable with it. So I remember being like, even if it takes me 20 years, like I'm gonna do, you know, you just have to build up that mindset of longevity and shaking it off and getting back up. I wake up and I'll be like, okay, guys, show me how good today is going to get. Oh, should we head back to the 80s with rivals? I think we should. I am in my mid-40s, so I remember the 80s.

0:37Fearne Cotton: Obviously, I was born in 1981, which to my kids sounds like the Tudor era. And the 80s were a mixed bag. But what I would say is that there were some real treats in the 80s. One of them, big hair. You know, we like circle back in fashion to different decades. I don't think we've actually really done the 80s. We'll do a bit of a shoulder pad here and there, but it's not been like a full 80s deep dive. Like when you see pictures or video footage of pop stars or actors or whatever, or the news from the 80s, everybody, men, women, dogs and cats, everyone had massive hair. I reckon I think we need to start bringing this back.

1:24Fearne Cotton: I'll be really up for it. Like sleeping in rollers kind of thing. My mum in the 80s, I've got a brilliant picture, I've got to dig it out. She had a full on, like a sort of two inch high kind of mohawk on the top of the head that went down into a mullet at the back. Like, can you remember what Linda McCartney's hair was like in the 80s? That's what Lynn Cotton had. Extraordinary hair. I think we need to, we're a bit boring with hair these days, guys. It's just like, it is what it is. I think we need to go back to the 80s. Big hair, big shoulder pads all the way. So let's talk more about Rivals.

2:02Fearne Cotton: It's on Disney. I bet you've already seen series one. If you haven't, it is more than worth a big old binge. It's just such great escapism jumping back into that time era, especially because it's all based on Jilly Cooper's brilliant books, the late, great Jilly Cooper, who really didn't pass away that long ago. So it's all still very fresh in everyone's minds. Nafisa Williams plays Cameron Cook, who is a very smart TV producer from New York, who finds herself in the cutthroat, very sexist world of 1980s British TV. And series two is coming this week. Get ready. So we had this chat about a month or so ago and we had such a riot of a conversation.

2:52Fearne Cotton: One thing we did obviously talk about was sex scenes, because if you've already watched Rivals series one, you'll know there is a lot of sexy time in it. And I always just sit there, whether I'm watching Rivals or a film or whatever, where actors are having to simulate sex. And I just think, how are they, like we all do, how are they doing this? This must feel mortifying. Or actually like, what if you're kind of into it? Like there's just so many different outcomes. But actually by the sounds of it, It's just like very robotic and choreographed, but you'll hear more about how to actually feel really good in scenes like that as an actor and what it takes to get a really good sex scene.

3:33Fearne Cotton: Also, we talk about the actual realities of systemic issues like sexism and racism, two things that Nafisa's character has dealt with. but we talk about her own experiences. Also the idea of choosing to see positives in a day, which I really need often to remember the positives and maybe write them down or just think of them first thing in the morning. Really, really important. Right, let's do it. This is the show.

4:23How are you?

4:24Fearne Cotton: I'm good. Nice to be here with you. Yeah, nice for you to be here. We're very happy to have you on the podcast. Nafisa, a proper official welcome. Thank you. Very exciting that Rivals 2 is on the way. I mean, what a show and what a cast. If you were excited about season one, season two is bigger, is bolder, is sexier, is steamier. It's 2.0. It's so great. I mean, what a cast. It's such an amazing lineup of people that we know and love. Has it been fun to integrate into that group? It has. I mean, I'm an explorer. So to work outside of America and work with new actors and be challenged with the new experience, a new location, I'm all for that.

5:09I can kind of get bored. I've been in America my whole life. I've been working with American actors since I started. So it's just really kind of cool to, yeah, explore and see how it works over here. See what the differences are with the set. But it's pretty much all generally the same. But, yeah, no, I've been living my best UK life. Yeah, I'm so glad. Trust me, I've been traveling. I've been doing the most with my time. And I really like it here. So it works for me. That's so good.

5:36Fearne Cotton: Have there been any moments where you're like, what are they talking about? Why are they being so weird? We can be quite odd as a nation. Yeah, I mean, we got our quirks too, so it's all good. And we have strange turns of phrase for things that are odd. You do. And the food, how are we feeling about that? You know what? I found my favorite places. I'm a foodie, so I have to find my way. It's a bit healthier, which is good. Do you think? Yeah, I think so. Oh, that's good. I find it to be a little bit. But yeah, I find my places and it works for me. Have you tried things like, I don't know, I'm thinking of something particularly British, crumpets and tea or something?

6:17I don't know if I've had crumpets and tea, but I've definitely had a bunch of tea. So much tea. It's funny because I'm from Philly and we have like these cakes that are called crumpets, but I don't think, or they're crumpets. So I don't know if it's exactly the same.

6:30Fearne Cotton: but um our crumpet is kind of a savory round uh sponge with holes in essentially that you put butter on toast them and put butter on they're really good okay okay maybe i'll try one oh you have to i don't know if i tried it to be even if you're feeling super fancy okay i would say butter and jam aka oh i love jam you like jam anything bread anything jam butter i mean carbs carbs they're the best they're the greatest invention ever really so i'm so glad that you've enjoyed your time here and you're settling in i mean that cast also has some party animals i know some of those guys are my friends i know these people yeah there's it's it's partying is there partying offset a lot um we have a good time we have a good time i don't i don't i don't give away too much of our fun it's got to stay secret it's got to say what happens in our house stays in our house but we have fun so if you know us then you know if you know you know if you know isn't she?

7:27Fearne Cotton: As just someone that loves watching drama, I am one of those people that sits there going, how are these actors doing this? This must feel terrifying, nerve-wracking, exposing. How do you get yourself mentally in the headspace to deal with doing a sex scene, doing a romantic scene? Yeah, it can be nerve-wracking. Here comes the caffeine. Let's get that caffeine in. Thank you. I've got caffeine. Hi, baby. How are you? I think I should be good. We've got all the essentials coming. We'll do a little white. Let's just do a little limp roll. We'll do a roll. Let's do a little caffeine here. Just in case.

8:06Fearne Cotton: Please don't tell me this is your first coffee of the day. It is. Oh, God. How are you here? You probably are going to be shocked to find out that is decaf, too. I just like the taste. Oh, wow. I already have a lot of energy, so the coffee just takes me to a whole other level. I wouldn't be able to stand up unless I'd had a coffee. I hear some people are. Immediately. Yeah, I get it. Immediately. I get it. Well, look, enjoy that. Yeah, let's talk about sex scenes because I do think it's one of those very basic things that most audience members just think, how are these actors doing this? Yeah, it's nerve wracking.

8:39I just am the type of storyteller where if it's a part of the story, we have to tell all of it. It is nerve wracking. However, I'm like, be prepared. make sure that everybody is on one accord so we don't have to do it too many times yeah and just go for it the more you just go for it and you commit and you just set out to get it done right the first or second time you know then hopefully you know I would say that our directors are are pretty just compassionate to the fact of how sensitive it is to us and how vulnerable we are so we try to get it done in a speedy manner too where we're not playing around too much and trying to find things on the day so the more prepared you are both the actors and crew I think it makes it a lot easier easier we are heavily protected with our intimacy coordinator so that helps and you know the guys that we work with um gentlemen so that makes for a better experience too but it's nerve-wracking honey it is I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie but I'm also kind of like ah let's just do it and when you have that energy and you put that commitment behind it like I said hopefully it doesn't have to be so excruciating no I'm imagining it's sort of just very technical it's

9:47Fearne Cotton: It's not like you're lost in the moment. No, some people are like, oh, is it real? Do you feel anything? And it's like, it's so technical. It's a dance that we're finding. It's a well-versed dance that we've rehearsed and we've practiced. And there's no time for anything else other than the technicality of it. And you've probably got like tape everywhere. You're taped up, you're padded up, it's boards. It's so many layers of protection for both parties that, you know, you're protected. So say you've got a scene like you've read the script, you know that in three days time you've got that scene to shoot.

10:21Fearne Cotton: What are you doing to just get yourself in a headspace where you're not waking up feeling dread or panic about it, that you feel grounded and you feel calm? You know what I think is about, again, is about being prepared. The more prepared I am, the better that I feel. And leading up to those moments are conversations with the intimacy coordinator. And we're talking about what we're comfortable with and what we're not and what we're willing to do and what we're not. So I think it's about me. I like to meditate and kind of get myself grounded that way. So the more calm that I am. And to just be honest, the more you do it, it kind of gets easier too.

10:56I'm a little daredevil. I'm a risk taker. I'm just kind of like, you know, once I've done it a time or two, it feels a bit easier. And, you know, we do it a lot. Yeah, in that show. So, you know, you build up to it. I think you probably have to be a risk taker to be an actor in general.

11:13Fearne Cotton: Yeah. But, you know, especially if you've come to a completely different country with a cast that you don't know and an audience that you don't know. Yeah. You've got to be you've got to have kind of nerves of steel to put yourself in those situations. Yeah. I always say we're pretty crazy to choose our jobs because, you know, just our fate, our opportunities are in the hands of someone else. And it's not personal. It's just like, do you fit the part? And you got to have thick skin and you have to be like, OK, I just heard no 12 times. But I'm going to get back up and I'm going to do it again.

11:40So it's about having that resilience in you too. Um, so it's also liberating to, as jumping back to in particular, the, the intimacy, uh, side of it is, it's very liberating when you can be comfortable in your skin and be that bold to say like, Hey, this is, this is what it is. A little workouts and some less carbs also helps. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's freeing and it's liberating as well. I would say.

12:07Fearne Cotton: Going back to that rejection. I mean, that is probably the toughest thing that you have to deal with in this industry. I don't put myself in that situation so much now because I try and create projects. But back in the day, I was constantly auditioning for things when I was starting out as a teenager. And what I think is really tricky to mitigate is paranoia. Because when someone is saying to you, even like you say, it's not personal, it's a role. But when someone says, oh, you weren't quite right. And they're so generic about it. That used to kill me. And I think, is there something fundamentally wrong with me?

12:40Fearne Cotton: Am I like so deeply flawed? Or am I weird and no one's telling me? You know, I would feel so paranoid. Have you felt that? Yes, it can create a huge insecurity if you let it. And I think you have to find ways to trick your mind. And also it's about having that confidence and not let it be shaken too much. But I mean, yeah, I started in New York, which is not a very easy place to start. And then also being in Hollywood, it was tough when I first got to Hollywood. I had a little bit of experience, but then you go into rooms and you're auditioning with people who you grew up watching. And you could be like, OK, yeah, no, I'm not.

13:16I'm not about to get this. like I just can't compare it to the experience right I remember telling myself it's gonna be hard you're gonna hear no and you gotta get comfortable with it so I remember being like even if it takes me 20 years like I'm gonna do you know you just have to build up that mindset of longevity and yeah just shaking it off and getting back up like I said there'll be times where you're hearing no and you're like okay so like I hear you saying it's not personal but like but why wasn't it but what is it you start questioning yourself give me feedback and it can be so generic you remember back in in the day pre-covid when you go into audition room and sometimes the casting director they won't even look up at you they don't give you anything and like you said it's so generic it's so generic and you're like okay like is something wrong with me i remember being like i have a degree why am i doing this to myself yeah hollywood doesn't love me they're not saying yes to me maybe i should just go back home and you know sometimes it's about not sometimes all the times it's about having people around you who can remind you when you're in those low moments like I had a really good friend who's like a big sister to me and she was like get up and I remember that feeling of feeling so defeated and just drained and exhausted from going on so many auditions but I'm not a quitter so I got my ass up in the next the very next audition after such a low moment was the the show that changed my life my my first show Black lightning and it's just I always would tell myself if I give up today tomorrow would be the day that

14:43Fearne Cotton: I could make it and you don't make it to see it so that would be how I would like trick my mind to keep going and just remembering that I'm unique and to bring those qualities and my first show the character was literally it needed all of who I was and there's a role out there for all of us and there is a character that is just so fitting and it's only for us but if we give up we won't know so so you're so right and i love that your friend gave you that advice it's so important to have people that tell you what you need to hear yeah not what you want to hear and i've got my mate claire said this to me even the other day she said we don't give up no and i was like oh god no we don't humbling i was like no we don't absolutely i needed that rather than her go oh i know it's really hard and yeah you're feeling this right now she was like we don't give up no And I was like, holy shit, I've never needed to hear something more.

15:33Fearne Cotton: And then actually it was quite motivating. Yeah. Boosting in terms of, yeah, she's right. What am I doing? Like lying on the floor, crying about everything. Like get yourself up. That was me. And do the thing. Yeah. And do the thing. And it's about who you're around because you can have somebody who can come over and have the pity party with you. Or you can have, like you said, a friend who's like, that's not what we do. Yeah. So get up. Exactly. And it's still okay to feel sad. Feel your mind. Yeah. Feel it, then get over it. Exactly. Rather than suppressing it and going, oh, I'm not going to think about that.

16:01Fearne Cotton: No, because that's not real. And you have to be real with yourself and you have to be real about your feelings. And I think it's allowing ourselves the opportunity to feel them and process them, like you said, and then be like, OK, that was my time. And sometimes give ourselves a time limit, however long that needs to be. But just give yourself a limit to where you're like, OK, we've dealt with it and we're moving on. Yeah, it is so key. I mean, obviously, the audition for Rivals went really well because you got the part here with you. It's a brilliant thing. And I'm sure not an easy show to film at the best of times.

16:36Fearne Cotton: There's comedy in there, which is brilliant. But also you've got serious drama in there. And as we all know, in the 80s, there was blatant misogyny and sexism and homophobia and racism. And Rivals doesn't shy away from any of those things. It looks at the realities of them. But I'm sure some of that to film is confronting or uncomfortable for you. Yeah, I think it's our voice and our job as artists and as actors in particular to tell those stories and to be the mirror and to hold it up so that we can confront it and be faced with the prejudices of that time and the racism and the sexism and also just the different class systems.

17:14And within this show, you know, it's about class, but it's also the idea of wanting to escape it. Yeah. And have just those real moments and real feelings and make mistakes and learn from them. And, you know, it's not just about sex. It's about trying to find things that make us feel good, too. And like I said, escape from what we're what we're going through. And that's real. You know, me, I you know, there's nothing better than a nice rom-com when I can put it on and I can escape from from whether it be work. or from life and just for that moment, just kind of like give myself over to that story.

17:50And that's what it's about.

17:52Fearne Cotton: Yeah. I mean, your character, Cameron Cook, she's constantly having to face up to these very powerful men who want to tell her how it's going to be or there's kind of emotional blackmail involved and all sorts of game playing and trickery. Are there any bits of Cameron's story or experience that you feel you've had to deal with in your sort of ascent in acting? um you know I'm just trying to think of well I well one thing I can say is my life with hers was very parallel with coming you know same difference coming from America and I'm from Philly which is right next to New York she came from New York to come to London same difference life imitates art for sure and I get here and I'm like what the hell did you decide and I was like Where is Bristol?

18:37Where am I? What did you just do? And I could understand being in a new world, being in a new country with actors that I'm not familiar with. She's in a place with these new colleagues and coworkers that she just, it's a new world. So we were kind of learning together so I was able to lend over to Cameron the real life experiences of taking that risk and moving from home and being alone. First season was kind of tough for me. I do things scared so that's the cool part but but it was hard being here if I could be completely transparent it wasn't easy I had to learn a new world I had to you know find my rhythm here and make a completely strange place my home for almost a year yeah but I gave it over to her because she was going through the same exact thing so that was one thing that yeah you know I was able to give that over to her I was like what did we do what are we doing here so that was one thing that directly affected both of us the character and myself I mean like you said a moment

19:38Fearne Cotton: ago the 80s it was rife to sort of have that blatant level of racism and sexism but in many ways it's not that much better today I think we still can see the reverberations of all of those systemic issues set in stone they do play out in all areas of life today is that something that you've dealt with in your acting career or just actually in your everyday life yeah you know I'm one of those people who tries not to focus too much on what's not working for me, but I'm also one of those people who I use my voice as an activist. And I believe from my last show, I played a superhero who was really much big on being an activist and fighting for what's right and standing up for it.

20:21And then you get into this show and Cameron is doing that too. Like she's the only black character on the show in a white man's world in the eighties, trying to prove herself there's a lot of racism it was it was it was hard I can't say that I've dealt with direct racism in my career so much but you know there's still not a lot of uh of me on tv in the way in which it could be you know so this role is an opportunity not just for us today but to show the women back then like wow someone like Cameron who's badass who's smart as hell who's smarter than these men that she's around. She's quicker. She's from New York.

21:04So she's fast on her feet and she can handle herself. So to me, I take pride in playing such a character who wasn't maybe around in the 80s in the way that we may see more of us in the workplace, in the industry. We've come a long way, but there's still a lot of work that we have to do. But I think for me as an artist, this is my way of being an activist. This is my way of using my artistry and using my voice to show how deserving we are to be in these positions as well. And you do it with excellence and in hopes that that mirror, again, is shown to say like, OK, hey, this is still how as companies, as studios, as corporations, like how do we look at this?

21:56What's happening in the 80s and ask ourselves, have we changed? Is there enough diversity? Is there enough inclusion? And I think that's what Cameron is and what she speaks to. Yeah. And I take it very, very serious. Yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

22:10Fearne Cotton: My God, sometimes you deliver lines as Cameron. It's like, what? Goosebumps. You know, it's like, boom, mic drop. She said the thing. Thank you. It's so great. Like you said a minute ago, you don't want to focus on what doesn't work for you. And having read interviews that you've done before, listened to some podcasts that you've done. Thank you. You're big on the secret, the law of attraction. I don't play around. I do not play around. I love it. So it's like you could you could decide to focus on it or you could be the solution and create your own projects. Like I'm developing some of my own projects and it's like you can complain about what you don't see or you can take control of it.

22:46Speak up for it, but also create it, create it for yourself and create it for people who look like you. and yeah it's it's it's important to to focus on what I want to do and how I can do it differently because if we if we if we keep focusing too much on that one frequency you're gonna create more of it so it's like we have the power and the control but yes I take meditation uh the law of attraction and I just I believe that I can like literally be and do and have anything and I I do I do yes You know, some people can say that it's a, I will hope that it doesn't come off arrogant, although I don't really care these days.

23:24Because there's proof of concept and I know that it works. So, yeah, I focus on what I want and I obviously work hard to go and get it. Yeah, I believe anything is possible. It's probably how I'm a Sagittarius too. Like we think that anything can be done.

23:39Fearne Cotton: I love it. But you just said something so important because, yes, we've got to be in the mindset of going, I want that thing or this is how I want my life to play out. but then you do the hard work. It's not just sat there daydreaming. It's the action part that is really important as well. Yeah, I'm not just like waiting for some magical dust to just like drop. Like you put, I put the work in too. And you know, faith and work is when you see results. Oh my God. We had Rhonda Byrne on this podcast. I can't think what it was. You have Rhonda Byrne? And you didn't call me? Honestly, it helped change my life.

24:10Fearne Cotton: Same. Oh my God. I was in the shittest mood the day of the recording. I was just feeling really crap. And it was only on Zoom because I think it was in the pandemic. And after we spoke, it was like I was a new person. I just like, I get it. I just needed to hear it one last time. One last time. One last time. And everything she says makes so much sense. It's actually very practical and logical. It's very practical. And it's not even, and yes, it's one last time, but I think it's a continuous thing that you have to do. Like I have to put the work in every day or you slip back into some thinking that's not going to serve you.

24:44So it's the self-work. It's daily, like if you really think about it. But I got I found out about Rhonda. Oh, like when I break like as I was just starting, because I graduated and I thought I was going to be a lawyer. Yes. I graduated criminal justice. I thought I was going to be defending some folks.

25:02Fearne Cotton: I thought I was going to really be a lawyer. And then I got out and I was like, oh, yeah, no, I'm going to play it on TV because this is this ain't it. And I knew that I needed something practical to kind of help me. I mean, I essentially like started over and switch careers completely. And that book is literally where I was like, word, this is how easy this is. This is what is that simple to just switch your thinking and expectation to like, you have to believe it and you have to. sometimes I get really bold and I'd be like okay I'm expecting this on this day if you really want to take it to the next level but it's it's the attitude and the belief of the expectation but I love love love her yeah legit and I think it just puts you in a positive mind because you're actually looking at what is possible rather than constantly second guessing what terrible thing might happen exactly the world is set up to make most of us feel like that certainly women that we You should be hypervigilant.

26:03Fearne Cotton: What's going to go wrong? Something's going to catch me out. What if it goes right? And it's simply a choice that you make. I wake up and I'll be like, okay, guys, show me how good today is going to get. Like, show me how good it can really get. And it's a choice. You can focus on what happened yesterday. I was reading something and I don't, I think it was Eckhart Tolle. Also love. He's a whole teacher in my whole life. And I never even met him. I believe it was Eckhart that said we tend to focus on like the negative things, the arguments, the things that happen to us, the things that we took personal as opposed to like a sunset or a vacation.

26:41Like, why not focus on like something good that happened yesterday? So sometimes, a lot of times I'll be like, OK, where's my thinking? It's that awareness and checking in with yourself and being like, OK, where am I? What am I thinking about? And then switch. It's just a switch. It's a switch. Just like a radio station. It's a frequency. Yeah.

26:56Fearne Cotton: I had it yesterday. I had some tricky stuff to deal with. Yeah. And at the end of the day, we had that weird spring day yesterday. Why was it so nice? It was so good. It smelled of spring. It did. It did. I ate outside. What's that smell? Oh, my God. It's spring. It's coming. It's so good. And the blossom on the trees. And I went for a walk by the river. And I was like, do you know what? Whatever happens, this doesn't go. I get to see this. Like, this is just, this is there. This is fucking there. Yeah. And no one's taking that from me. It is. It's mine. It's mine. It's mine. readdressing your focus and going I'm not going to look at this yeah I'm going to look at this and like you say it's every damn day forever forever no one wants to hear that everyone's like do this thing for four weeks your life is every day it's every day like I tell people you go to church or whatever your belief or your practice is you can go once a day or you can have it every day at home yeah but I mean I'll keep it real I had a moment this morning I was like uh-uh what we think about girl we're not that's not what we're trying to attract it's so simple whatever it is that we're thinking and feeling you attract more of it so you got to catch yourself but I had a moment this morning I got my I got my shit together yeah but we all do we do as human and you have to like we said allow those uh those moments those human moments to be just that yeah it's so important I mean is this something that you believe was instilled in you in childhood through parents caregivers or is it something that you've discovered out of and it's a necessity that you've discovered it?

28:21I think both. I did grow up like in the church, but that doesn't mean you continue it if you don't want to. I think it's a choice at the same time. I think I've always been really optimistic. It's hard to tell me no, Fern. I'll be like, wait, say what? I'll be like, well, one more time. But I think we could do something about this. So because I truly believe that something can be done. So yeah, I could be a little hardheaded. So even as a kid, I just didn't understand no because my mind was so much bigger than that. So I think it was something that's just in me, but it's also something that I choose to practice too.

28:56Yeah, I mean, choice.

28:58Fearne Cotton: Growing up in Philadelphia and then having made that decision, okay, acting's for me. Did you feel like there were opportunities nearby or was that something you had to really work out a plan of, how am I going to do this? It was a plan. And I remember I actually got fired from my law job because I had an audition. They told me I couldn't go. And I was like, you know, I'm going. I'm going. So I went and I got to my computer the next day. And I was like, damn, nobody told me when I was walking in. I was fired. I get to my desk and I'm checking. I'm trying to like sign in. And I was they were like, yeah, come talk to us in HR.

29:31And they fired me. And I remember the woman. I never forget her name, Susan. She was crying. She was like because she hired me straight out of college. I graduated college early, too. And I was like, she hired me. I knew that I had the job like before the new year. And she just was really sad that I was getting fired. I was like, Susan, it's okay. Susan, I'm calling it loud. Susan, thank you.

29:52Fearne Cotton: Hurry up. Fire me. But I knew that there weren't a lot of opportunities in Philly, but thankfully New York was literally down the street. It's like from London to Bristol to get to New York and Philly. So I just was like, okay, I don't know when it's going to work or how it's going to work, but I'm willing to just like, like I said, if it takes me 20, 25 years, at least I know I put the work in. I was willing. I didn't have anybody who was in the industry. I'm no nepo baby. I started green. I didn't have any friends in the industry. Like I started straight green blank on my own. But New York was a really great, a really great place.

30:26I didn't go to an actual like drama school, but I did check into like some of the conservatories that were shorter programs. And I just engulfed myself in the acting community. And I hung around people who were acting who knew more than me. I would ask questions. I humbled myself because I just, I knew I didn't know. Yeah. So it's like, you can act like you know, or you can humble yourself and you can be like, I need help. Where'd you get those headshots from? Where'd you get this from? And then shortly after I booked about a year and a half into it, I booked my first job and I was like, okay, see, that's all you got to do for me is tell me one time a yes.

30:57And that was the hope for me. It was a soap opera, One Life to Live. It was a four year contract. And I was like, this is all I needed for. I just needed one person to tell me yes, because that's enough of an omen to just like keep going. Yeah.

31:11Fearne Cotton: Yeah, but even to start, you have to have, and I totally resonate with this, you have to have some weird self-belief that it's possible. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother. You wouldn't bother. You wouldn't bother. I'm the same as you. I come from a random suburb in London. I didn't know anyone in telly. But even as a sort of small kid, I thought, I reckon I can do that. I reckon there's. Why not? And you obviously have that childlike naivety, which I think is helpful. I was like, I think, I don't see why I couldn't do it. Right. So you have to, I think, have that because if you if the starting block is, oh, God, this is probably a terrible idea, but I'll try anyway.

31:45Fearne Cotton: Yeah. You're fucked. Yeah. You've got to have that that weird belief of like, I kind of think that this is doable. I think it's like a vision and an insight that of knowing that, you know. But again, I knew that it was just an incredible dream to be asking for. And I didn't want to just be an actor. I was like, I want to be a working actress and I want to work on some of the best projects that there is. And people would be like, oh, what do you do? And I hadn't booked a job at all for it. And I'd be like, oh, I'm a working actress. I'm a working actress. I'm a working actress. And until it became that, you have to like, you kind of got to be a little insane and psychotic.

32:21So I claim that. I am. I am. Yeah, no same.

32:24Fearne Cotton: Absolutely. I am. I mean, you kind of have to. Yeah, I own it. And with the people around you supportive, you know, people in your family, like, go Nafisa, you've got this. For the most part, some people were like, why would you like get fired from that really good law firm? And I remember my mom, she was like, she was really sad. She was like, why would you do that? You had benefits and it was good. And I was like, mom, trust me. And then she was like, a few weeks went by and she saw how serious I was. And you know your kid too. She was like, well, everything you touch turned to gold. So hell, go ahead, go for it.

32:57And that's a big thing to have that kind of a support from your parents. whether they gave it to me or not again I'm hard-headed I was gonna do it but it's nice to know that my mom hearing everything you touch turns to gold that's uh that's really really uh comforting and validating from your parents to hear so I was like you know what damn straight hell yeah I do so let me let me go for it even more so um some friends thought it was kind of risky and weird but again that's that's that's what they believe and you got to be crazy enough to stand out.

33:30Fearne Cotton: I'm not looking at that. I was tunnel vision. Yeah. Everyone must be so proud though. Your family must be so proud. They are. Thank you. I think to have that dream and then actually commit to it and bloody well do it. You know, it's no mean feat. It's a big thing to do. I'm really grateful. You know, sometimes I find myself on set and if you're standing close enough to me, sometimes you'll just hear me being like, thank you, God. Thank you. Just resting in that gratitude because I remember that those early days. I remember being here. I mean, I remember being where I want to be now. And I think gratitude has a lot to do with manifestation too.

34:05And I'm not trying to sound cheesy or corny or anything, but it's, it's, it's my reality is proof of, of, of concept of, of me practicing it and applying it to my life. So gratitude is, is really, really big to me. I try to journal and my gratitude journal almost every day, because again, I'm, I'm still manifesting. And also that frequency of gratitude is what brings you more.

34:26Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Without a doubt. And where do you think your drive comes from? Because you have to have that. That is imperative in this game. You want to keep in it. You better be ready. Yeah. I owe a lot of that to Philly. It's a hustle. It's a bustle. And then, you know, also have family again in New York. So I was there and the hustle and the bustle of the East Coast and being from up north, like we'll sell water to a well if you if you if you give us the opportunity to or we'll take it. You know, it's about having that energy and being bold. Yeah. Yeah. I think also, too, just I remember watching TV and I remember being like, how did I end up in Philly?

35:02Why am I not living in like Beverly Hills? Like what's happening here? And I remember my mom at 11. I was like, mom, I'm moving to Beverly Hills. Just I was obsessed with like watching TV. And, you know, I love the West Coast. L.A. has my heart. It's my second home. So she was like, girl, you're going to need a lot of money to live there. And I was like, OK, well. So that was, you know, I think it's just an insight and I think it's just desires that we have. And I believe if I was given the insight and I was given the vision, then it's real. I mean, you just said there the word obsession.

35:31Fearne Cotton: I think, again, that's very, very key. It's key for anybody to do particularly well in any career. It doesn't have to be acting. Whatever it is. You have to be obsessed. And again, I don't think many of us want to hear that. And also, I don't think you can fake obsession. I don't think it's something that you can think I'm going to become obsessed with this. So I'm doing well. It's in you. It's in you or it's not. It's in you. Yeah. And it's I mean, it can be a problem because I think sometimes it's hard to switch off. You are just it's all about that. And I can certainly be like that myself. And I have to watch it and go, whoa, where's the balance gone?

36:06Fearne Cotton: You need time out. Yeah. Is resting hard? I'm reminding myself that I'm worthy of relaxation. It's like been one of my affirmations. there was a moment as you know in our industry where it's like you're only as good as your last project and work begets more work and it's I'm also like living in this I just turned 42 so I'm kind of like I know who I am yeah 40's the best it's like I don't need any more validation and also too it's like you work so hard and one year I worked really really hard I went from my last show to like another movie and this movie and that project to when 2022 came I was like I need a break I haven't slept in my house I haven't driven my car I need to go on a vacation so I remember my therapist said something to me a few years ago she said your rest and your self-care needs to match your level of hard work and I was like well yeah that's why I was like oh then I need to sit my ass down exactly so like even now I just wrapped the show and there was an opportunity to just like go do another show and I was like yeah no but I need to sit with me I've been with Cameron for a year like I need to live and I believe that living one of my acting coaches Aaron Spicer always would say we need to live to give over to our art yes I need to go to some galleries I need to travel I need to just do nothing to be to be and to sit with myself and see how am I feeling because I believe in order to give over authentically to your character you You have to like really be in tune with who you are and where you are in the end, in that awareness of yourself.

37:44So it's not the easiest thing for me. And I'm sure you can identify with that, but I, you kind of got to force it.

37:52Fearne Cotton: And also otherwise life just whizzes by. I don't believe we're just born to work hard and die. Like, no, I'm not. We can't, we can't. We've got to pause and look around and go, right. What is going on? Especially when you've got a big shoot like Rivals. Yeah. And you're like, I've just got to get to the end. You could easily just whiz through that whole year and it's gone. And you're like, did I enjoy it? Yeah. I mean, I have been here almost a year. Now I do use my time wisely. So if I see a window, I'm like off to take as many trips as I can. But, you know, there's still, you're not super free because it's like, okay, I'm studying on that trip.

38:28I'm looking out for call sheets and I'm preparing my line. So it's nice to be just free for a second. Yeah.

38:35Fearne Cotton: Yeah. I think it's that knowing you deserve it is the hardest bit. Knowing you're worthy of it. And of course, we will say to our best friends, of course, take a break. Oh, my God. But for ourselves, it's so hard to offer ourselves that. I have become my very own best friend lately. And also learning, too, that I think more comes to us when we loosen up the grip. Yes. You know, when we're gripping too tight and we're not allowing things to just like naturally flow into our lives, we're forcing it. And I don't want what's forced. No, no, no. I just want to be in like divine flow and alignment. Otherwise, it's that tension, that omnipresent tension where you're like pushing and pushing and pushing, but getting nothing back.

39:13Fearne Cotton: That's a horrible feeling. That's the stuff that gets us sick. I don't have time. I want to live to like I'm like 104. Me too. So I need to take care of myself. Yeah. Also, I'm in the whack in the middle of my 40s. Okay. And it just gets better and better and better. I feel great. It's the decade for women where I think we go, oh, wait, what do I want to do? What do I want to do in my life? It's that decade. I think it's also like I have zero, like my fucks to give are like getting short. They're short, short. It's like right here. And we know who we are. We're talking a centimeter of fucks, guys.

39:49Fearne Cotton: We're talking right here. Like I ain't got it. I ain't got it. And it's about like, you know, again, like I think you enter that era where you're like, the people pleasing is out the window. the validation is like yeah I'm cool I know who I am I don't I don't need that external validation the way that I need it you know we all like to feel good and to have people tell us nice things but it's it's not living for that oh I literally just spent the last year writing a book about that exact subject it's called likable and it's all about that need for everybody please like me please like me it's like we cannot do that anymore we can't it's so dangerous for us to put ourselves in that position of and it's hard I think in in my job certainly in your job to a degree you want people to like you it's kind of part of it almost whether it's this context or getting an audition please like me you're literally going into the audition to say hey do you like me am I good enough am I and it's just like when you don't like we going back to what we said when you don't hear the things that you want to hear it's just like I think I heard Journey Smollett say that her mom told her because you know she's a child a child actor too her mom said i'm i'm paraphrasing but don't take heed too much to the to the to the praise and don't take heed to the criticism yeah like try to find that balance and don't get too moved by either side of it because then you're allowing what people say and do to sway how you feel yeah it's so important the praise bit so interesting because actually if you do lean into that too much and then it goes you're you're flawless.

41:24Fearne Cotton: You don't know what to do. What do you do? What do I do? It's terrifying. And then it's a drug because you need more of it. And we got to find a way to give that to ourselves because we're the only people who can really do it. I agree. We are the only people. I agree. It's all that counts is that we've got our own backs and that we can be our own cheerleaders. We have to be. Yep. it's going to be very interesting I guess with this second series of Rivals coming out because last year Jilly Cooper sadly died which was unexpected seemingly she used to pop to set quite regularly she was really part of the making of it that must have felt very heavy that yeah that that it's still very sad for us as it's still very new it was just a few months ago that it happened.

42:08And such a strong, powerful, badass woman. I mean, we're here because of her and her thoughts, her feelings, her creativity. And it was just really cool. I always say this about Jilly, who I love dearly. She's really sweet. Always having something funny to say. When I first met, she was like, and don't let them cut your hair. I was like, hell yeah. Y 'all not cutting my hair. So she always has something just like, you know, just endearing to say to each of us so that was really really hard but what I really admire about her life is that even at her young age that she was still being able to see in her mature years a dream come true I'm a dreamer so it was just like for her to see you know you write books so imagine just to see the fruition of coming to life like that and you having this vision and And I'm proud that she even got a chance to see us move into season two.

43:06It's so sad that she won't be able to see it, but I will watch her in person on set watching us. She would be at the table reads with us word by word, reading the scripts with us. So it's like, wow, to see a dream come true, like we are never too mature to dream and to see it come true. And the joy of her watching it was just like, damn, we can we could dream as long as we want to. and to see their dream of hers come true was really inspiring for me.

43:32Fearne Cotton: I think also going back to like the law of attraction to show that the timeline for this stuff can be anything because it took decades for her books to be made into TV shows. Decades. To this degree for it to be a big Disney show. Yeah. And I'm sure she wasn't sat there just waiting for it to happen. But it took a long time and actually these things aren't tomorrow. No. It's when it's right. It's when it's right. And back to what I was saying, too, is I remember sitting down with myself knowing that I was like asking for an unimaginable thing to happen. So I was like, it might take 20 years. Like, bro, are you good with that?

44:08Yeah. Like you have to be real with yourself. I know a lot of people, you know, we want to see things happen quick and we want to see it happen. And if it's not happening quick enough, then I've watched a lot of actors kind of give up and they're like, oh, I'm going to go try this. And it's just like, yeah, but you're going to fall off radar with the casting director. You can't take breaks. Like you have to be so consistent and resilient and staying focused. It's so easy to kind of veer off and be like, oh, it's taking too long. It's taking too long. Like she never gave up on that.

44:38Fearne Cotton: Never. I know. It's wonderful. I can't wait to watch it. Hey, before we end, two questions. The first one, we're making a happy place playlist. What song are you putting on there? Pharrell, Happy. Do you have it? It's probably, is it on there? It might, it might be on there. It might be on there. That's a good dance. Another one is, I'm a huge Bruno Mars fan. If you've never seen him in concert, he gives more than he has to. He's brilliant. 24 Karat Magic, that gives me life. That is good vibes. That's a good one. Okay, that's going on there. Yeah, I think anything that makes you dance. Yes. They say when you're dancing, you can't be sad.

45:12You're out of your thoughts. Yeah. It makes you happy. Okay, they're both going on.

45:16Fearne Cotton: Okay, good. Last question. Where, Nafisa, is your happy place? Oh, by the water. I wanted to say LA first, but again, LA has water. LA and anything by the water. Like I love vacationing. It's like my favorite thing to do is how I take care of myself. Massages are my happy place. But being by the water where I can meditate, I'm reminded of how powerful life is, how powerful God is and how small we are compared to life. Love LA. It's my happy, happy place. Yeah. Getting that sunshine. Yeah. You've done enough British shit, right? you need to get back to LA. Get me out of here. I woke up today and I was like, damn, it's cloudy again.

45:59Like, I feel bad for y 'all. And I'm like, even as kids, I'm like, damn.

46:02Fearne Cotton: How did we do? Yesterday was nice though. Yeah, but it makes you so grateful for those. For those moments. I just stood in the sun yesterday and was like, wait, let me stand here. You know, you take for Grownstead in LA. It's just there. Just the sun. Yesterday I was like, is that the sun? Is that the sun? What the hell is that? Then when I think I see it, it goes away so quick. I feel bad for y 'all. I'm like, damn, is this they life all the time? It is. I guess I kind of got used to it. I do love London, though. I think it's a really dope vibe here. London's fun is just shit weather. Yeah. Yeah, it got me.

46:33First time I visited was 2018, and it was a great summer y 'all were having. It was sunny, so I kind of got tricked into being like, everybody's like, London's weather? I was like, not when I went. It was so good. Don't be fooled. Don't be fooled.

46:44Fearne Cotton: Well, look, Nafisa, I wish you, not that you need it, the luck, but the love and the luck for everything you do in the future and for Series 2. I appreciate it. I can talk to you all day. Thank you for having me. Oh, Nafisa, I loved that chat so bloody much. It was so interesting to learn more about Nafisa as a person, her own journey, her own determination, her own excitement for the job that she does. And also just to be on the receiving end of a Nafisa, like full, bright, what smile is something else. So if you haven't, maybe go and watch it on YouTube because she is just such a, she has the most sunshiny smile of all time.

47:25Fearne Cotton: Right, you can, of course, watch Rivals on Disney from the 15th of May. What opportunities are you creating for yourself? I would love to know. Maybe there's an opportunity that you really want to start carving out for yourself. Let us know. Chat on Instagram with us at Happy Place Official. All right, for now, a massive thanks again to the brilliant Nafisa, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you're the best.