Sophie Ellis-Bextor: “I’m a healthy amount of delusional!” How to sustain career success

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that makes sure you're speaking to yourself kindly. Today I'm chatting to Sophie Ellis-Bexter. In the morning of the day that I was doing the BAFTAs, I woke up and I thought, I am not in the right headspace and I'm not going to do it right tonight. I'd thought it through so much to the point where I pictured myself at the after party and people not being sure if they should come over and say something reassuring or not. And then we got to the bit where I was all doled up and Greg Williams takes one of those lovely black and white photos and I was like, this is me just before I screw it up.

0:34And I got up on stage and murder started and I felt this wave of nausea. And in my head, I went, will you get over yourself? I hope everyone's well and good. By the way, how are we still in January? What's going? Why is January going on for a year? Why is it so slow? I don't understand. Now, I'm excited to talk to today's guest, Sophie, for many reasons. And one of them is my current state of mind, which is just general overwhelm. It's January's a lot, as we all know. But also, I'm in one of those states where everything's just slightly, I'm dropping balls is what I'm doing. Okay, left, right and centre.

1:12I'm forgetting things that the kids are meant to take to school. I'm a bit all over the shop. There's a hell of a lot of laundry that I've not got around to doing. My head feels like it's sort of generally exploding left, right and centre. And I'm not doing dry jam because of that, okay? I'm enjoying the odd little Negroni here and there Just to get me through it And I think the main theme of this episode Is to not beat yourself up And to talk to yourself nicely So I will be continuing to enjoy those Negronis Infrequently As a little treat A little reward at the end of each day But I am going to siphon wisdom from today's guest Like you've never seen before Because she is quite frankly Superwoman So let's talk more about it Sophie.

1:59She needs no introduction. She's the glittering disco pop woman of our dreams. Her musical career spans more than 25 years. And of course, she's made everyone's lockdowns infinitely more sparkly with her live kitchen discos, which I loved on Instagram, which have since turned into an album, a tour and a BBC Radio 2 show. So as I said, we're going to chat about talking to yourself more kindly, which I think we all need to do, you know, every single one of us. I'm not interesting subject of being a little bit delusional to push yourself towards success, which definitely resonates for me. I think I've got to be constantly delusional to think I still stand a chance of being in this career.

2:41I think it could be quite helpful. Also, the constant chasing your tail that comes with parenting because Sophie has five sons. That's insane. Five sons. And this is a big one for me. Anxiety dreams and superstitions. Superstitions can rule the show for me at times. So it was really good to hear how Sophie breaks that one.

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4:41Okay, here we go. This is the show. We begin with a little behind-the-scenes insight into how it works here in the studio.

5:08Do they always leave you alone? Yeah. I don't want anyone in here. No, that's nice. It's intimate. Yeah. Sophie, it's so lovely to see you. You too. Yeah, we're not having... No camera people, no one sat around because at the end of the day, we are just simply having a chat. We are. And it sets me up to feel like this is going to probably, I don't know. Do people often cry? Sometimes. There's no pressure to cry. I can bring in some tissues if you want. Let's see where we go. We'll see where we go. And that's the beauty of it is just, you know, you do podcasts, you know what it's like. We'll just meander.

5:41And obviously it's an interesting one when I get to interview someone that I know because it's not like I'm starting from scratch and having to delve into lots of different interviews because I've met you a ton of times over the years. And I was actually thinking back, I really clearly remember meeting you or at least seeing you for the first time. Really? When I was hosting Top of the Pops. It was probably like 2001, around that time. Sounds about right. And I remember you were stood to the right on a stage. You had a gorgeous little mini dress on. and I was just like, why is she so cool? She's the coolest person I've ever seen.

6:15And obviously it was when you were like blowing up, you were just everywhere at that point. This would have been Groovejet era. Groovejet, it was 100 % Groovejet. And that song was, I mean, it's lived on, but it was everywhere around that time. Yeah, that was a pretty insane chapter. But also it's interesting, that was your perception of me because I think cool would probably be the last thing I was feeling on the inside. But yeah, it was, do you know what? It was pretty magical because the preamble to that is I'd actually been in a band before that had broken up. I'd been, you know, signed at 18, dropped by 20.

6:49So Groove Jet will always be the song that changed my life. Not just because of its commercial success, but also because it took me into different genres of music and gave me a sense of adventure, which I've never lost since then. I like doing things that slightly take me out of my comfort zone. but obviously it also gave me back my day job. I didn't really have a plan B so when my band had got dropped I was like I actually don't know what else I can do so Groovejet gave me back the thing I loved. I mean at that point did you think oh my god if I've only had two years in this career and I've already been dropped there's no point doing this.

7:23What is the point of me trying again? A sensible person would probably think like that yes. But honestly I just didn't have anything else that made me feel the way that singing did or does. And so I thought, you know, I had a sort of bit of a talking to myself moment, really. I thought, right, from here on in, I cannot blame anything that happens to me on anybody else. I have to be responsible for what happens to me because it's very easy to go, oh, the band got dropped because of X, Y, Z, and if so-and-so had only done this, or if I and Armin had done that, or if so-and-so of the band had done that, and I thought, I don't want that.

8:00That's going to just make me a bitter musician. I'm sure we both know a few of those. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought I also want to, if I'm going to be in this, I have to be in it for good or bad weather. And I can't just be a singer that only wants to be a singer when everybody's going, here you are, step this way, here's your record deal. Because everything had come very easy to me with my first band. So I thought, okay, this is where you really prove if you love it because you'll do it even if it's not going that well. So that was really the choice I'd made at that point. Yeah. I mean, you're the only one, and I'm saying this because I'm sure many people out there who do creative jobs especially get to that point of shall I give up and you know you'll only reach that point if you're willing to let it all go but I think it's really interesting thinking of that first lesson that you learned so early in being accountable and thinking I can't blame anyone else yeah it's such an important one but it's so hard to get to grips with that lesson because it is the easier thing to go So is that that person's fault or I'm just an unlucky person?

9:01You know, we've all got these, you know, habits that we fall into mentally of putting the blame on other people or other situations. It's really hard to take a look at ourselves and go, OK, well, it's because I can only be accountable for myself. I didn't do this right. Or maybe I could try this differently next time. But it's a fine line between that and then actually beating yourself up and going, I'm a piece of shit. I'm not good enough. How do you stop yourself falling into that category? I think you're right. And I think sometimes you just do that anyway. I think that's quite a default setting.

9:33In fact, it's probably only been in the last five years that I've started to pay attention more to how I speak to myself like that. I think I did do a lot of I'm an idiot. I'm stupid. I think I've done it as a default setting for a long time. But the bigger picture with the music stuff was just that I really, I really loved it. I have lots of friends that work in creative jobs and I'm attracted to people who are optimistic, open to opportunities, you know, fun to be around, just a sense of what might be about them. And I just thought I'd rather be in that club than sitting around going, oh, if only that had happened, then things would be different.

10:14You know, for every time you ever feel like, and trust me, there's been lots of points in my career where I think this would probably be where other people might give up at this point. I just always wanted to be someone that was optimistic about my future but also um for every time you think oh maybe I should have got this that and the other opportunity you can always flip it and say maybe I've already got further than that or maybe I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be and I think if you work in an industry like ours where you look left and right of you and there's all sorts of people doing it all kinds of ways there's not really a set path you've got to have whatever makes you feel at peace with where you find yourself so you can sleep well at night feel good about it and feel enthused it's supposed to make you feel good ultimately I think it is but like you say there's so many distractions of people who you could say oh they're more successful than me or they're doing something shinier over here it's really hard to not compare yourself and I think also in those moments that you just described where you know I've had it millions of times where I thought fuck this I'm out I can't do it anymore or things are just going too badly and I don't want to feel mortified or lesser than I do already to not give up you do have to have this baseline of resilience or at least the determination to try again and find a bit of inner strength somewhere and that might sound like I'm being a bit dramatic but I think when you're in the public eye yeah or in a job where it's public facing and there's lots of opinion you do have to have this certain amount of resilience to put yourself back out there again it's quite draining to keep putting yourself back out there and trying again and yeah if there's failure it's very public it's not a very nice feeling would you say you're naturally resilient or that's something you've had to just throw yourself into and work at I think I'm actually I am quite resilient I think but also I think I'm in a healthy amount of delusional as well because I always it does help doesn't it in this industry because I always be a little bit delusional and you'll go very far honestly I think it's a really good ingredient because you think but the maybe there might be the what if and I I remember, I mean, it was horrible being dropped when I was 20.

12:14But look, at least I was at the beginning, you know, I was young. But when I had my fourth album coming out and Universal again said, this is the, I keep, I go back for more. Like a terrible ex-boyfriend. I'm back. Hello. Shall we try it again? But yeah, when I got dropped around my fourth album, which felt really different, I was in a different situation. But that one was this feeling of like, I am the only one pushing the boulder here. there's moments where I've thought if I say okay I'm done I'm going to go to something else people might say it might be like three people who are like oh we quite liked you last time everybody else will go okay fair enough understood so that's sort of something to hang my hope on I can be a very simplistic creature and if there's a couple of things in the diary I'll be like fine that's it then I will head towards those things and I'll work hard and go from the ground up I think Like, annoyingly, I think they are like the making of you in the end.

13:09It's annoying to say that because they're horrible to go through. But I always think I would have been so ghastly if my first band had just worked and that had been, you know, if I was like this sort of bulletproof, I would have been horrendous to be around. I wouldn't have liked me. Well, I think, you know, people don't realise how hard it is to sustain a career in music, especially in this day and age. I believe it's harder because it's an oversaturated market. You don't really make any money from selling records. you need to have a big tour and other things in the mix to ensure you know Kate Nash has been talking about this brilliantly and eloquently very recently that it's really hard for those artists that either had big success and then things have petered off or that mid-level artists you know let alone ones that are just starting out it's really really hard not only to break in but to keep it and you've sustained a career now over two decades I mean that is a bloody long time and And it's hard, but it's hard graft.

14:02And I think when people can dip in and out of your career and see, they don't even see the peaks and troughs. They're like, oh, she's releasing an album or, oh, she's doing promo now. It's easy to think, oh, it's all right for her. She's just sort of jogging along. But of course, there are these moments where, like you say, there's a couple of little things that you can hook into and hope for the best. And you do just hope that, you know, I've certainly had that in my career. You just hope that things pick up momentum and that you can carry on. But it's really hard to sustain it. Yeah, and I think, you know, most years I start with a bit of a blank question mark of what it will hold, what it will look like.

14:38And you have to have a bit of faith that you'll end up busy. I love being busy. I love having lots of things going on. And yeah, I suppose, you know what, I think, you know, you get bits of advice, don't you, at key moments. I think when I was making my first record, one of the people I wrote was Alex James from Blur. and obviously he was a very experienced musician already at that point and he said hardly anyone's career is a straight upward trajectory. For most people it's peaks and troughs, peaks and troughs and I think I was like right that sounds smart and I believe that too and I think that's held me.

15:10There's a reassuring cycle to what goes on and so when the wind is in the right direction and things have got momentum and do feel good I'm pretty good at appreciating it and seeing it with like in quite a sober way because I don't get too giddy with it, but at the same time, really enjoying it because I think I can really see it for what it is. And, you know, this last year has been a good example of that because I had lots of adventures and I just thought, I'm not going to worry about where this leads me. I'm just going to really enjoy the moment of it because otherwise, what is the point? Like, where do I think this is leading?

15:43You know, there's that sort of Jacob's Ladder impression of like, just keep going up another rung. There's always another rung. Of course. Just enjoy it. Just enjoy it and lean into those bits that feel really good. And I mean, you've had like the most incredible, well, not just year, you know, it started before that, even you doing your kitchen discos, which were just so entertaining for everybody. And again, brought you this whole other area of your career. I'm sure you weren't even planning on it, just sort of all unfurled, let alone then Saltburn turning up and this whole new lease of life for Murder on the Dance Floor with new generations, learning about your whole back catalogue and who you are.

16:19I mean, I'm sure that was just an extraordinary thing to go through. So bonkers. I think I'm still processing it a little bit because it's only really been the last 12, 13 months or so that that's happened with murder. And you're right, the kitchen disco thing was really... You know what? I think that was an extraordinary thing. I mean, we were doing these lockdown discos at a time when I wasn't seeing anybody else. But what that was about wasn't because I sing for my day job. It's because music makes me feel better. it's just always been a tonic for me and also I missed people and connection so having this Friday night point of you know reference as a community getting together being a bit silly at a time when the news was heavy just made my soul feel topped up so everything that came out of that felt very pure but also connected me with what I love about what music and making music and you know if I spent some of last year making a new album writing songs it's like the jammiest way to spend a day you go into a studio right what should you write about today and I'm just trying to chase that feeling that makes me want to bop about and I mean in a way it's like being like a teenager again it's what takes you back to this quite pure little kernel of yourself and yeah all these things are sort of cross-pollinated and influenced each other so that with what happened with murder I was really a good point to just really seize that and it made me very busy.

17:43It was quite tricky being away quite a lot. But I said to the kids, I've worked really hard and now I get to have all these opportunities I never thought I'd had. So I'm just going to run with it and I'll involve you where I can. And actually they were really good about it. Hopefully we experienced it as a family, not just me. Well, we definitely did actually. Yeah, I mean, obviously kitchen disco, your kids running around, that was all part of the joy of it was, you know, because I was sort of sat at home and I'd always tune in and watch. And I was the sort of person that, although I was luckily able to keep working throughout the lockdowns, I went into absolute hermit mode of like, I can't be bothered to even do like a picture on Instagram.

18:20I'm just like not wearing any makeup. And I was just sort of hiding. And I'd tune in and go, oh, my God, you've got like a cape on and you've managed to like rig cameras. And how has she had the energy to do this? And it was actually quite motivating for me to see you doing that with your kids running around as well. And I think, I mean, I love looking at your Instagram anyway and the fact that it does feel like a big family adventure that, you know, you're going to New York, you might be able to take one of your kids or somewhere else you're going on tour. And there is, of course, this sort of insane obsession with how you're juggling it that I'm sure your husband doesn't get quizzed on anywhere near as much as you do, which is a sign of many things.

19:00Yeah, it's all ever. But I think, you know, rightly so. You've got five boys and a home and that in itself is insane. And then you've got this just unbelievably bonkers job where every day is different and you're travelling a hell of a lot and you've got tours or you need the brain space to be creative. I mean, it's a sort of basic question, but is there overwhelm constantly for you? No, it comes and goes. But yeah, I definitely reach those moments. And I'd say, first and foremost, I have really good support. You know, obviously Richard and I, we're doing a lot of it together. With the kitchen discos, when he was saying about Reagan, it really was just like him.

19:43He got really into the technical side of it. I was the one finding, like, rummaging through dressing up boxes looking for sparkly things. And then, yeah, last year did sometimes make me feel that thing where you're spread very thin. and I hate that feeling where you feel like you're doing one thing and then there's another thing and you're sort of like, okay, have we got that moment? Oh, did you have a birthday? Right, okay, here's a balloon. Okay, here's a birthday present. I hate that feeling. Here's a balloon. Here's a balloon. Did I do that right? Yeah. Oh, wrong child. Sorry, it's you. Okay, bye.

20:17I can't stand that feeling where you feel like you're just trying to... I had that even this morning. It's horrible. This morning was one of the, and that's what I think about you when you've got five of them. And I was like, okay, so I was trying to work out which sports kit was which kids and who was wearing a uniform in and who was wearing a sports kit. And wait a minute, who did they charge their tablet they need? And everything just felt, I was going through these little five minute segments of the morning and then, oh my God, I need to put makeup on because I'm doing a podcast today and have I got my notebook.

20:49Everything was just this tightly wad sequence of events that felt like I just had to get to the end of it. Sometimes I do whole days like that where it's just getting to the end of the day and then still, still you forget it's non-uniform day or you didn't sign a form so you can go on the school trip. It's so, I mean, to do that with five kids, I don't even know how you do it. Edmund can be really, yeah, it's a lot. And WhatsApps. Oh, the parents' WhatsApps. The parents' WhatsApps. I can't. Are you a, do you engage with it? No. No, no, I do not. I appreciate some of the information that's shared and a lot of other stuff I just moan about.

21:29Yeah, no, same, same. I like it when it's reminding me of things that I didn't even know were happening. And I'm like, oh, thank God I read that because I did not know there was a rugby match or whatever. But it's the stuff where it's just like, is this someone's black sock? Please, can we not do this on the WhatsApp? Or even worse, when it's things that are happening in the local area that I don't give a shit about. that I don't need to know about on the WhatsApp thing. It's like, I'm just speeding through it. Do I need to retain any of this information? It's so, it's relentless. It pings all day.

21:58You've got, have you got five WhatsApp groups for your kids? Well, my eldest is now going to be 21 in April. No, he's not. Yes, he is. So I no longer have a WhatsApp for my eldest. Do you know, I remember him coming into Radio 1 when I was on Radio 1 and he would have been about four or five and you brought him in. He's going to be 21. Yeah, in April, yeah. I know an actual adult person a man a man shit okay so you know what's up for him he's living his life yes but four others four others yeah wow I think it was a couple for one of them as well I don't know why but then sometimes I have done a lot of this to myself I'm not very good at delegating and I think because I have a job that takes me out of the house and is quite self-centered I like the fact that I know what's going on in their world and I would find it very hard to delegate that.

22:50So I think there's a part of me that has invited some of this into my life because there definitely could be ways I could spread it out or even getting the kids to do more, to contribute. My next one down is going to be 16 soon. But I've sort of made a lot of it my problem, I think. But you want to be the kind of mum that's engaged in your kids' lives. I do. And that means that something has to give and it's probably your sanity. That and sleep. And sleep. Oh, sleep. I miss you sleep I was really I am really good at that when I get a chance if I'm on a tour bus thank you you're out like a light I can do a proper wake up at you know 10, 10.30, 11 see I can't lie in anymore it's just I've just stopped being able to my body just even if I went to bed at 3 I'll wake up at 6 really yeah like I'm not even joking around it's cool through the day yeah New Year's Day went to bed at half 1 really late for me 6 why am I awake why I could have a lie in my kids are still asleep I was up 3 hours before the kids oh wow why That would not be me.

23:47I can't do it. So what's stopping you from sleeping? Other children? The kids and then I put them off there in bed. And my kids go to bed relatively late. They just really love finding the different things that need to happen at bedtime. Yeah. Which I relate to. I'm quite like that too. And then I'll be like, right, what can I do that I didn't have time for during the day? Oh, so you're catching up when they're asleep. Yeah, I do bits and bobs. And at the moment, I'm in a bit of a mad sorting out phase. What, house cleaning? Yeah, I'm loving it. drawers and cupboards. I'm so happy. It's the best.

24:17I'm so happy. Best thing ever. It really is. It's my favourite hobby. I love it so much. I could do it. If you gave me next week off, that's why I'd do it all week. Same. If I stopped doing this job, I would professionally do that. One of my kids wants to do that. Yeah, I would do it. He's disappointed with the way we live. That's so great. Yeah, he's just, it gets constantly messy, he says. I said, it's not. There's spaces to do stuff. It's fine. There's seven of you for crying out loud. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

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25:31Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Did you know 39 % of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94 % know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports.

26:09monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast. I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor. Hey, good morning. Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most. Yep, they sure are. We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs, all in one place, with coverage that fits his business and bottom line.

26:43Oh, I shouldn't have looked down. It's all right. We're so far up here. Look at me. Take a deep breath. No, I'm good. So good. Get a commercial auto insurance quote today at geico.com and see how much you could save. Get more with Geico. I think if you're feeling glum, this is one of my go-tos, sorting out a drawer, even if it's just one or a cupboard, Makes me feel great. It can change the whole landscape of your mind. I totally agree. It relaxes me. Every time I then open, like I did the knife toy, it looks great in there now. It looks fantastic. Yeah, and finding things and what's this? I was disappointed the other day when I did the spices, herbs and spices.

27:20I'd clearly done it in 2020. Nothing was older than 2020. Right. I wanted to find relics in there. Nothing. We did another cupboard. We found something from 2012. And one of my kids was like, we should keep this because this is, what's that word, mummy? A relic. It's retro. So I was like, we are not... It's history. Put it in the bin. It's an embarrassment as well. Are you good at letting go of stuff that you don't like? Say you've got four pairs of sparkly silver boots. Are you letting go of some of them or are you keeping stuff? I'm getting better, actually, I think, at being realistic. Maybe the same for you.

27:51I'll get a pile and I'll put something on the pile and I'll know pretty much instantly if I did the right thing. Does it spark joy? Yeah, and if it's just like, no, I'm at peace with that leaving. I've got a few things that are a bit nice that I'd like to see go to a good home. Most of it just goes to the charity shop. I'll just view things where I'm like, is there someone I know, maybe like someone's teenage daughter or a friend of mine that might benefit from it? Because I like things being lived in and being used and enjoyed. Me too. But I am okay with it. And every once in a while, the charity shop will put something I've donated in the window and I feel really good about that.

28:20I love it when that happens. That was mine. I love when that happens. So you're doing that when everyone's asleep? Quite often, yeah. I like it. I do like it. It makes me feel, or I'll do it in the mornings when I get up, the weekends. That's the first thing I'll start doing is like some random cupboard. Yeah. Yeah, it's great fun. So when you are, I know you're about to go on tour again this year in May. Yes. And again, so that is where I guess you have to let go a little bit because you're not physically in the home. So you have to sort of step back to an extent. Yeah. How are you with guilt?

28:47Because I think this is still, it's a very obvious subject, but I think it is still something that most, maybe parents, but certainly mums feel when they, especially weirdly, when they really like the thing they're doing, whether it's work or something that is recreational, or going out with mates, having a nice time, the guilt of choosing that over being with your kid is still this kind of maybe ancestral hangover that we feel so torn apart by it that we then stop enjoying the job or the thing that we're doing because we feel so wracked with guilt. How do you manage that? Yeah, I think subconsciously when I started my podcast, which you very kindly were my first guest for.

29:26Which I loved. So patient with me. I think I subconsciously did start, you know when you do something and you don't know exactly what you're getting out of a project part of the podcast conversation is about was about helping me have permission because I think I was finding the guilt just too much sometimes and I realized that I had been speaking about my work in a way that minimized it in front of everybody in the house I was quite dismissive I didn't give it much status I'd say I've got to run off and do this thing and I don't really want to be gone and of course I'll be missing you and oh I just have to go and I'll be quick back as quick as possible And I just was giving, I was making it very small and nobody was, it was not helping with the conversation in the house because I'd made work a thing that was a bit small.

30:08So the kids could say to me, why are you doing that? And it would get, it would be huge because I think, yes, you're right. Why, why am I? I've got a choice to make. I could be here. And then after empowering it a bit more, I gave it a bit more, it got a bit more respect. And then they stopped asking me as much. How interesting. Yeah, because I'd say, yes, I've got to go away, but it's important to me I do these things. And I'm really fortunate that I've been booked to do these things because there's so many people out there that do my job and they've asked me to do it. And I really want to do it and I want to do it well.

30:41So I'm going to go and do it. I'll be back before you know it. I keep myself available. I think that's the thing as they get older, it's easier. So especially for the older kids that, you know, they've got phones if they're at secondary school. So my 12 year old, I don't think I've missed a school run no matter where I am in the world. I'll FaceTime him when he goes in, even if it's like 3am for me wherever I am, just because I know he needs that from me. And that's OK. It makes me feel better if I know he's feeling good. But other parts, I just I think I've just prioritised it better because I've stopped talking it down.

31:13Yeah. But how interesting that your tone then informs how they're reacting to it. because I think we assume it's this inherent thing that as soon as we're gone, everything falls to shit. Whereas actually a lot of the time, they're fine. They're so fine. They don't even know you're not there or, you know, and if they need you, like you say, you're available, you're around. I mean, how do you compartmentalise? Say you're doing something like, I loved watching you when you did the BAFTAs and I was just like, this is a moment where I was so happy for you. I think I even messaged you afterwards just going, you fucking nailed it.

31:42But also what a moment to have after this, you know, hugely long career that you've already successfully been part of to be at the BAFTAs performing this song that everybody's talking about, like this huge film. It was such a moment. But say you're at something, cause terrifying. So terrifying. Like the audience. Oh my gosh. The audience. Oh, hi Margot Robbie. Hi. He went with Danny Jr. I told myself it was a lookalikes convention because I was just like, this is too much for my little brain. It's too much. Yeah, that was, I mean, those things, the moments, and I think actually around that time, that was even then, that was only February of last year, but I was already feeling a bit like, ah I'm away a lot and Richard actually encouraged me to involve the kids so later on that same month I'd been invited to see Mardi Gras in Sydney and I could take someone with me and I took my then 8 year old Jesse so he became my little date and we had 4 days in Sydney and I think he'll remember it always actually although we travelled because it was a work trip and they'd invited me so I had business class flights so we'd get on the plane and before we'd even taken off he's pressing all the buttons like Tom I'm Hanks and Big, you know.

32:50And he stops and he went, how much is this? And I said, oh, Jessie, it's like thousands. And he went, it's worth it. Oh, no. What have we started? Yeah, really. What we are screwed. Mummy, are we flying business? No, you're not. It's economy. Come on. Family holiday, guys. I love it. Yeah, just involving them, really, so that I didn't feel too stretched. But, yeah, I do, of course, I do sometimes feel incredibly guilty still. It's not gone, but I'm better. and can you quite easily click into say you know we we all always have a level of drama going on whether it's you know one kid's refusing to go to an after school club or like they they they're everyday things but it's constant or a friend's falling out with someone whatever and then the next thing you know you have to really focus because you're on stage you're in front of a crowd can you switch into work mode quickly yeah i've had to i don't have any indulgence about that It's like literally the only way I've been able to do it.

33:44But I think in some ways, although sometimes it's the point of ridiculousness, I'll be. I remember actually when I was recording the New Year's Eve show that we did for the BBC. And I was in between the two slots around midnight. And I had to remember I hadn't sorted a play date out that was happening around that. You know, those sorts of things. So sometimes it'll be really like. Yeah. Yeah. But I think what the what it's given me, which is something I've I think is helpful, is that I don't really need any any specific situation to feel ready to do what I do. And I think it's allowed it's meant that I've just had to be like so long as I've got, you know, it's basically I pack it in myself what I need for work.

34:28I haven't I can't I don't need to have even time to, you know, warm up or anything. It's like just get out there. I think that's actually helped me because it's meant I felt more self-sufficient. Yeah, do you think that's just experience and you've done it a lot? Because I think sometimes, you know, over the years, certainly when I was at Radio 1, you would get all manner of artists come in. You'd get people like you who there's no fuss. They know exactly what they're doing. They're confident in their skill set. They know that they're going to sing the song to the best of their ability that day.

34:58And it is quite literally that simple. And it's always quite refreshing. Like, wow, that was just all very fluid. And then some, you know, you've got voice steamers and 10 people in the entourage and they need a certain room to hang out in first. And it's just this huge furore around them. And actually you can see that it's counterproductive because it ends up putting more pressure on the person because there's this huge thing before they actually just do the job. But it doesn't have to be like that. I mean, I feel the same about, I'm not singing, but I just feel like as long as I've done the work before and I've got my notes, there doesn't need to be any fuss, any drama.

35:31I don't need to come with anyone. Just do the fucking job. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess actually thinking over, it's also about surrounding yourself with good people, isn't it? Because when you've got people around you that know what they're doing, that are really talented, you also have that you're never doing anything on your own. And actually, I do feel like I have, I only really work with people that I feel like lucky to be working with. And that is a great advantage. So I shouldn't really, I shouldn't forget that in the midst of my own, like, I can do this. I've also got around me people that are really good.

36:04And I think I was actually watching that boy band documentary that's on Not Long Gone. Oh, I need to see this. It's really good. Yeah. And it made me remember that you can't help but compare, you know, other people doing similar things to you as a very like for like. And you forget that some people have got, you know, corruption around them or terrible management or, you know, people that don't support them. And so their behavior becomes part of this whole little world that's around them. And if you're able to get to a place where you're feeling satisfied and engaged and sparked by what you do, chances are that's being facilitated by the people around you.

36:47Nothing happens in isolation. And actually, that's a privilege, isn't it? It is. I think it's all collaboration, isn't it? We all have our own ceilings and limits as to how far we can take it. And it's about finding brilliant people that are as excited as you are and also attracting good people in. Because I think the one thing about you that, again, is rare and also why you've been able to sustain this career, on top of being extremely talented, but just your outlook on it. There's no bullshit. You've not been sucked into the vacuum of ego and believing all of this hype. you're just a regular person going about your business having a family but I think it's so easy and you know we've all seen it you get sucked into that world of parties and events and everyone luring you to fashion week and all of this stuff that you don't really give a shit about but you feel like I don't know maybe there's an element of oh I'm popular or whatever but you've never been you've never been sort of I don't know gone off on that tangent it seems or tempted to No, but then sometimes I've, because I do all manner of types of gig and all sorts, I feel like it'd be really hard for me to exist in that world because there's so many things that would be constantly like bringing me back down to earth.

38:06Children. Yeah. Yeah. Kids always like, you know, if you're someone that sings in a club and you have to get ready and like. A loo. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I don't even know how I'd access that. but the thing when you're saying that makes me think of that phrase about drinking the Kool-Aid I really love that phrase when you meet people and they're like they've drunk the Kool-Aid they've drunk their own Kool-Aid they're believing the hype yeah yeah exactly I mean I think you know as I said before if I'd had success on success I'm sure there could have been bits of it I actually all should could there I don't know actually even when things would have been going really well with my first album I could sort of see that some of it was I mean like enjoyable but absolute bollocks as well do you think that's down to upbringing yeah because I think you know my mum is a sort of person that would say to me don't get big for your boots or or just shut up basically I mean your mum also had the hindsight of you know she's she'd been in the industry she understood the pitfalls and the dangers of it including being in the public eye did she ever sort of offer up wisdom or pointers for you yeah definitely my parents have always been really good I think the thing that was really crucial and and and really helped me so much is that no one in my family ever became like a fan of what I was doing I don't mean they don't support me but you know they never got starstruck by anything uh and that is actually a really big help so it wasn't like they were oh it's tv or you know and it would be completely understandable if they had if that had been a different world but because they'd gone through they worked in television and did their own you know creatively my mom went to drama school as I've said they had points of reference enough points of reference to not feel you know too wowed by or too starry eyed but at the same time they had a bit of a gap so the music thing could be mine which I needed a bit of that I think a bit of independence and then my girlfriends you know they're the same friends I've had since school so when my first album was doing stuff they were all off at uni having their own adventures and I think most the people that I surround myself with or I've you know been lucky enough to have around me are people that will ask me how I how I am rather than just be like blown away by something I've done so that we actually end up talking about how you're really feeling in amongst things yeah and again probably having that that first thing where my band got dropped it meant when my first album took off I could really see things quite quite clearly and then and then it's really funny if you find yourself I remember going to um Germany on a work trip and the MD of the label taking us all out for dinner and he said I have all my golden eggs here because he had all the singers that were doing well at that time and I was like wow you couldn't make this stuff up this is bullshit yeah but it's so it's actually like fun yeah great yeah let me just write that down yeah that's a reminder of that yeah I know all of that stuff so I think I kind of enjoyed it those sorts of moments where it doesn't even have to be rock bottom but where you understand the fragility of the system you're working in is so important I mean I've had some fucking car crash moments of just like oh my god my career's over I'm done and I don't think I would still be doing this if I hadn't been to those places because I wouldn't the thing for me is I wouldn't be grateful for any of it like I'm so grateful every time I get to sit and do this I don't take it for granted at all I think and that actually makes you enjoy it more feel excited about it you're motivated and I think it's when it's all just so easy and just all kind of happens that you start to lose sight of why you're even doing it definitely it's so important yeah we are lucky and it's fun and And yeah, I think you're right.

41:34You just don't take it for granted. And it gives you a bit of perspective as well. And I mean, like you, I've had moments where I'm like, oh my gosh, that's humiliating or I feel lost. And, you know, I think if you're making music, the thing that's worse is when no one's got any opinion of what you're up to because they're just not hearing. It's just so lonely. But there's always been like a little flicker of something where I'm like, I can just put one foot in front of the other. and what makes me think I'm entitled to anything more than I've got right now. I've got so many friends that are so talented and it's not a level playing field here.

42:11But if you can still find the love and enjoyment, then you end up feeling good about it, don't you? Yeah, without a doubt.

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43:43How have you found, especially with the last year of having Murder on the Dance Floor just everywhere again, and also like taking you to the States and it's been this whole global situation. with that obviously comes this accentuated fame which you've got history of the last 20 years but it's been quite intense the last year and a bit um how do you deal with that in general you you kind of do you navigate it with ease i think i've i've sort of realized when i when i first started getting recognized i realized that there's different types of um of celebrity or fame there's when people recognize you because you're part of something that's a cultural moment but then you could it would be the same to them if they recognize you because you're an advert that's played all the time or anything but then it's different if someone's like oh you know the book that you wrote meant a lot to me or you know I heard your podcast and it really meant a lot so when it's more specific about something you've actually you've done with a purpose and it's been received in that way it's really that's really special but even you know when I did um strictly strictly is like this thing that's like this right at the heart of that culture people will be you know i walk in street across the road what's what dance you doing the weekend i was like whoa but then i've always taken comfort for the fact that most the general public and i'm included in this got quite a short short memory span for what's going on so something that happened six months ago that's like old news so if there's ever a time when i feel like it feels a bit intense i know it will pass it just doesn't last but if you get people that are actually engaged with what you've done that's lovely but I've never had my life in a bit where I'm like oh this is a bit too much for me really I kind of dip in and out of it I think but you know I can still still wonder about living my life yeah just crack on as normal it's all fine yeah I mean maybe it'd be quite fun if it's a bit more intense but I seem to be able to do absolutely everything and it's fine I think you've got enough on your plate at the moment quite frankly I mean what about if you are performing in front of a big audience like the BAFTAs or a show like that where you know all eyes are on you are you just did jimmy fallon was it in the states i mean you've got huge audiences watching you do you feel the pressure of that um with the the baftas i actually did i don't normally i mean with fallon and everything's happened in america it's been glorious but it's also so unexpected and also a lot of these things they resonate more if they've got if there's something that you would watch anyway or engage with so whilst um i'd probably be vaguely aware maybe if someone may be doing fallon but not necessarily so i always take reassurance in that like would I would I encounter this in my everyday life possibly not right fine then I'll just quieten that one down but the BAFTAs was different only because I felt like there were a lot of people working on this it was only like what three four minute performance but there'd been conversations and meetings and choreography and dancers and all of you opened the show no yeah there was all Emerald Fennel and all the cast of Saltburn and I just thought it was like this like I was like if I'm crap like literally no one will want to say they did this with me it'll just be that thing they did once that was awful and actually I had a really interesting thing happen to me and that um well I found it interesting in the morning of the day that I was doing this the BAFTAs I woke up and I thought I am not in the right headspace and I'm not going to do it right tonight and I'm normally someone if I've got a pressurized day I actually wake up feeling like it's my birthday I'm quite excited maybe a little bit too enthusiastic but I've got, it's quite like birthday energy.

47:08This, I was like, I thought it through so much to the point where I pictured myself at the after party and people not being sure if they should come over and say something reassuring or not. And I saw it in complete clarity. It was people like catching my eye and looking away. And some people come in and going, don't worry. It wasn't as bad as you think. I actually feel sick about this. Yeah, and I had it all day and it just didn't leave me. So all while I was getting ready with my friend Lisa doing my hair and makeup, like all my team around me it was just there all day and I was like I'm going to fuck this up like massively and I know I know this and so it just didn't didn't leave I didn't get in the pocket I didn't get into that bit where I felt good I was like damn it that's so annoying it's like the most annoying thing ever yeah and I just didn't tell anybody I kept it completely to myself I thought the moment I start talking about it it's real yeah it's real so I just shut up and internalized it and then we got to the bit where I was all dolled up and in my dress and all the dancers in there and they're stretching and they're bending and they're a bit nervous and Greg Williams takes one of those lovely black and white photos and I was like this is me just before I screw it up and I got up on stage and murder started and I felt this wave of nausea go through from my feet to the top of my head which I never get like that I'm normally sort of kind of okay by the time it happens.

48:27And then I felt, in my head, I went, will you get over yourself? It is three minutes. You've sung it before and I'll shut up and just do it. Yes. And I just did it. And then afterwards I was so elated that this bad thing hadn't happened. I thought I must remember that because we let our minds be the governor of us so much. I've thought it it's fact I've got a premonition it's fact it's not fact your brain is so good at that it can give you all these clunky pass me that that's not what I asked for but it doesn't mean that's what's going to play out and actually I hope that another day that helps me out that that happened and I wasn't the one crying in the corner in the afterthought no it's such a good lesson learned because I think we can so relate to that in any capacity whether it's like I don't know even a social thing you're nervous to go to or you've got to do some public speaking or just something that you're totally dreading.

49:23It could be something medical, whatever, that you build up this whole story to the point where you believe this is 100. And if you let superstition in, you're absolutely screwed. Like that's when it starts. For me, that's when it gets gnarly, when there's superstition. Oh no, and I've seen... Touch the lights which I left. Yeah, exactly. Could be all of that. Like there's all of that that goes on. So true. You see something, I saw a black crow and it's a bloody omen, whatever the hell it is. Yeah. You can talk yourself into that. And actually, you have to almost collate these moments like data and go, there is actual data, there's proof that that didn't happen and I have to remember that I can get myself out of this.

49:55And actually, give yourself a jolly good talking to and say, sort your shit out, you're capable of this, you can do it. I just felt pressure because there's been so many people and they're all about to do their thing and look, dancers work so much harder than me when I perform. If I'm lucky enough to have dancers, they are really like, they break out in a sweat. I'm just like sauntering around. I just thought, I can't let these people down. And sometimes as well, if there's a nerve wracking or a big event, I will dissipate the energy by focusing it out on other people. I'll be like, don't worry.

50:27You know, when we did, I sang in Times Square for New Year's Eve. Yeah, it's all amazing. And, you know, the dancers there, they were nervous. Some of the band were a bit nervous. And I was like, before it started, I'm like, we are four minutes away from Margarita. Yeah. Let's just do this. It's one more time. Then we can relax. but really I'm deflecting because if I focus on them and I try and model feeling okay you can actually fake it until you make it a little bit with that I think I think so I don't recommend that motion no no no it went on a whole bloody day I was like sooner or later I'm just going to snap out of it and I just didn't and I was like whoa this is I think it's also I did have an awful New Year's Eve live once where I was given the wrong mic live on BBC live from Somerset House straight after the fireworks I was given the wrong microphone so when I started singing I couldn't hear anything and I knew there were like 10 million people watching and it is horrible so I did have the bit where I went to a party and there was some people going it's not that bad so I've lived that version of events too It's the worst The world still turns but I don't want to do it again No, no, no, no, no We've all had those bum-clenching horrendous moments Oh, it's me It's happening I'm in the middle of it What am I doing?

51:37I'm still just grabbing headlights actually Yeah oh wow this is the pit it is I have so many anxiety dreams still now about even I'll be in a radio studio and the faders are like 10 metres that way and 10 metres that way and I can't get to them and it's like that anxiety of everyone thinks I'm a twat this is horrendous like it's the worst crumbling down the worst feeling and actually do you know what I think it's a really amazing thing even after like the time it did happen to you again to prove to yourself you can recover from humiliating moments and they're not even yeah they're humiliating to you in the moment And then, like you say, everyone forgets about it 10 minutes later.

52:13But I think to prove, you're like, not really. But I think to prove to yourself that, you know, I think most of us stop taking risks or don't do things because we're so scared of being humiliated. It's one of the worst feelings ever, being humiliated. I've had awful humiliation in moments of my life. But then I'm sat here today and I can public speak and I feel like I'm confident in the job that I do. And I think we do have to remind ourselves that we can overcome it and we can and it might take time, but we can pick ourselves back up. We can get our confidence back slowly. Do you find yourself saying yes to things because they scare you a little bit?

52:51Sometimes, but I'm still massively wracked with fear about certain areas. I still I'm not a fan of doing presenting live TV. I'll go on it where I'm not in control and someone else is running the show. but I think I would be still quite petrified to do live TV because the risk of humiliation, it feels like a thin veneer between me being in control and it all going completely tits up. And I didn't used to feel that at all. Oh, really? So that's a native thing. No, no, no, no, no. Like I used to go on live TV without any fear. I would just be like, whatever, it's no big deal. Or I used to get a kick out of it.

53:27Whereas now it would absolutely petrify me. That red light. Yeah. Yeah. Live TV used to give me panic attacks. I used to find it absolutely... It's terrifying. Yeah, it's the bit where they'd be like, okay, we're going live in two minutes, and I'd think, I can't get out of this, and I've just got to be here and got to do this. It's because you're trapped in it. You know you can't... You're absolutely trapped. There's no option. Whereas I think now, I'd like to think, if I was in that situation and I was on live TV and I felt a panic attack coming on, that I would just sort of say it out loud and go, do you know what?

53:59I'm feeling weird and I'm having a panic attack and I need to and just say it because I think that dissipates it. Also why do you need to be okay with that? It's an artificial environment. Actually sometimes we talk a lot about overcoming things but actually if something is making you feel bad it's okay to just say I don't do that anymore. I don't want to do it. I think that's completely fine. I don't want to do it. No I completely agree. I think there is a limit. There's like a line there's like I'm out of my comfort zone like every time I do one of these I am slightly out of my comfort zone because I want to do a good job and I want the guests to feel good I care about it But then I think there's out, out, out of your comfort zone, which is like, this is actually making me feel dreadful.

54:36And that feels, I'm quite fascinated. Whenever I've interviewed like a sports personality or a member like when Gareth Southgate came on, asking that question to people who have to push themselves to the absolute limit of like, you know, Gareth Southgate couldn't have been any more watched and judged in that role as England manager. is that too much out of your comfort zone? Like it's so interesting we all have a bespoke limit as to what that is and I think we should honour it and not push ourselves to a point of this is making me feel dreadful I don't like it And also if you're, for sports people what do they do when they're on the other side of those things?

55:13How do you get the bits of that job that you were thriving on? Where do you find that? I know, where do you find that? Yeah, I find that interesting I know, well you know luckily for you and me we're still working and doing our thing and getting that feeling. But I think it's never far off that thought. What if I wasn't doing this? Where would I get that kick? My kids are horrified when I say I'm not going to retire. That scares me a lot. That's so great. Yeah, they're like, what? Please. I mean, five more years, right? My kids are like, what is your job? I don't get what it is. I'm like, I don't know.

55:46I haven't got a fucking clue. Just chatting in different mediums. That's ridiculous. I'd like to end by asking you, where is your happy place? My happy place is people, actually. So it's where my people are. Friends, family. Yeah, that's where my happy place is. Well, look, good luck on tour. What is it? You're going out in May? Yeah, out in May. My big thing at the moment is finishing my album. Yeah. Handing all the music in. I've worked really hard on it, so I'm excited. Feeling great about it? I am, actually. I mean, who knows what happened with it, but it's the album I'm meant to make, and you can't really do more than that.

56:22That's a good feeling. Yeah. I like that feeling very much. Is that an album that therefore sort of writes itself? You're like, you know the tone of it, it's fun. So I knew I wanted to do a pop dance record. I spent 10 years working with a singer-songwriter called Ed Harcourt and we did quite left field, quite introspective, some folky stuff. I loved it, I needed it so much. And we knew we were going to do three albums and out. So as I was doing the third album, I was thinking, what do I do next? I thought, I think I'm going to go back to the sort of music I used to make. and then with what happened with murder it basically meant that I could then get in the room with really great people so I just took full advantage yes I exploited the situation and worked with some amazing people and had so much fun I love it very much it's such a joy like pop music the best you love being on tour?

57:10I do actually I love performing I feel like I'm still curious and still getting better it's one of those things I feel like I'll keep learning until I stop and I like that feeling which is never yeah which is come out whatever happened to baby Jane is where I'm hoping to end up that's always been my destiny green eyeshadow can they please wheel us both out in like 30, 40 years and we'll just do this again exactly yeah see what we've got to say then hopefully we'll be wiser and have more stories that'd be nice but look it's as ever been a joy talking to you so nice and I just wish you so much love and luck for the rest of this year same to you Fern thanks Sophie ah Sophie Sophie is so great.

57:52Not only, well, you know that because you just listened. She's so brilliant and so normal and down to earth. She's got the tube here. No fuss. Turned up. We had a lovely chat. She probably popped off to do about 80 things with her kids, mix an album, etc. And also, when you're lucky enough to sit only a metre away from Sophie, to see her gorgeous elfin beauty in real life is something else. She is a complete wonder. Sophie is going on tour, by the way. It's her biggest ever UK headline tour and it's in May and June this year, 2025. Has a bit of a low period propelled you into positive, exciting action on the other side, I wonder?

58:29Come and chat on Instagram. I love seeing what you're talking about. We can all chat together over at Happy Place Official. Until next week then, a massive thank you again to the brilliant, sparkly Sophie, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you are ace.

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