Spencer Matthews: "I lack empathy!" Managing addiction and victim mentality

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps you embrace your sense of adventure. Today, I'm chatting to Spencer Matthews. I love life as an experience. And I think it's interesting to hit those moments where you feel like a loser and you feel shit about your behaviour. And that ended with the 30 marathons. Crossing the finish line that day, a lot of that shame vanished kind of in that moment. It was a real sense of achievement. you know and for somebody who has felt a lot of shame and in reality hadn't achieved much guys i am in new mum mode just to let you know i've got a new kitten from the rescue center the mayhew my fourth cat from the mayhew and it's actually a surprise that i'm even turned up to speak these words now because i am so distracted i'm getting nothing done absolutely nothing i've got emails coming at me ass a laundry bag that's completely full all I want to do is play with a little tiny fig she's two months old she's so adorable for anyone out there who because I've had a few people contact me on social media saying how do you integrate existing cats with a newbie it's fine I'm no expert but what I've done previously is keep them in separate rooms with a door between them they can smell each other this door in my house is glass they can see each other as well as smell each other.

1:27And then you just slowly do it. Now, my cat Simon, who you may have seen on my social media, can be a right arsehole. So I'm a little bit nervous about that, but I'm hoping the transition is all going to be okay and by next week she'll be mooching around the whole house. She is so cute. Go to my social media if you want to have a little look at her. So alongside caring for little cute baby Figgy, I've also been chatting to some very interesting people recently. One of them is Spencer. Now, we all first got to know Spencer on Made in Chelsea. He was part of the original cast. He's like a M-I-C-O-G.

2:03And my God, he let loose on what really goes on behind the scenes on that show. You will love that bit if you're a Made in Chelsea fan. More recently, though, he started doing some incredibly impressive athletic challenges. So listen to this. Spencer's latest athletic endeavour is attempting to complete seven full triathlons on seven continents in under four weeks. But of course, there are charitable reasons. All funds raised are going to men's suicide prevention charity, James's Place. And I had this chat with Spencer just before he started this challenge last month. So he'd been training incredibly hard, which made me feel really guilty about my complete lack of movement that week.

2:44We talk about that sense of adventure that's driving him now. And actually just how important adventure is. I think we can all be guilty of thinking that adventure is in the future. Or I can't really do adventure now. Even if it's like, I'm not talking about doing seven triathlons. I mean, it could be just, you know, a little walk in a new place. Or trying something new, going to an art class, whatever it is. But that sense of adventure is so important to break through the mundanity. And I think it's so important to not put adventure on hold. We chat a lot about that. Also choosing to live by the opinions of just a few people who are genuinely important to you.

3:19That one I made notes on. Living with shame while drinking. We talk a lot about drinking. Spencer has been on Happy Place before and we touched on that, but we really dive deeply into that one. Also not slipping into victim mentality and what he really thinks about Made in Chelsea. Right, I don't know if you've seen and if you haven't, where have you been? the Happy Place festivals are back for 2026. We're at Old Deer Park in London on the 11th and 12th of July and Tatton Park in Cheshire on the 5th and 6th of September. Early bird tickets are on sale right now. So if you head to the Happy Place website, you can get yours before they're gone.

4:00And really cool news. We now have our very own Happy Place Festival Instagram, where you can keep up to date with all the amazing things we've got planned for you at the festivals next year. So make sure you're following at Happy Place Festival. Really important if you're going so you know what's on offer, all the details about getting there, etc. Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:43Spencer, welcome back to Happy Place. I'm delighted to be here. I loved our first interview. Me too, me too. Our last one was really interesting because we talked a lot about your brother and about you climbing Mount Everest or partly climbing Mount Everest and that being a huge life moment for you. We kind of concentrated on that, but I think we've got so much more to talk about today. Of course, you're doing another mad challenge. Yes, I am. um the first major one i suppose last year changed my life i i loved it so much um what did it change oh um so to recap it was we've not seen each other in a while it was uh it was 30 marathons and 30 days in the desert people are going to get bored of me saying that now so i need to do something else uh but it was i don't know it was enlightening i learned a lot about myself i had a lot of cathartic moments uh as you know when i push myself i i feel quite close to my my brother mic but more than that there was a lot of camaraderie it was it felt like a unique experience I learned that boundaries are perceptions in many ways because there was no guarantee obviously of completing that or finishing it most people thought that it wouldn't be possible for me again I'm quite competitive so I enjoyed that about it we were able to raise 630 grand for Charities for Global to Make Some Noise, helping about 50 ,000 families.

6:06It all just added up to be a really kind of monumental life experience for me. But I guess on top of that, in the final days, I realized I was doing a lot with my life professionally that I didn't love necessarily. I had a lot of podcasts at the time. They were all kind of humorous in nature. I love having a sense of humor, I think. but they weren't particularly kind of helpful like I guess I looked at it as do I do I see myself doing this when I'm 50 I'm 37 today I believe that to be really happily involved with the things that you're doing or making or creating or putting out you need to love it to the point where you know you can just crack on and do it you know for years and years to come I think that's a nice way of looking at work isn't it you know being comfortable with it and I don't know I loved working with Vogue.

6:59I loved working with Jamie. But there was just something about those shows that felt a touch surface level in terms of content. Kind of I'd come in and it would just be super light and quite funny. And that was absolutely fine. But I felt like I wanted to go into a more serious and perhaps helpful space. I actually spoke to Jake Humphrey when I was in the desert. He's a good friend of yours as well. And I spoke to Jake and I just said, you know, So I'd love to build something that really matters to me, you know, where we explore human potential or where we look at how we can untap more of our potential.

7:34And we started having meetings and here we are. And that's how Untapped came to be. It was born in the desert. I really care about that project. I love doing it. um and yeah so so i don't know just a lot a lot sort of changed but mostly that i feel that more is possible you know i just i had a really super time life feels more limitless perhaps yeah but i also you know you feel very alive when you're doing these challenges i think you know people who are kind enough to pay attention to what i do sometimes ask you know why why push yourself to those extreme limits and it's kind of does make me feel alive it's a real adventure every time yeah you know and it's a kind of the highs and lows are an incredible thing to to witness and be a part of the camaraderie as I say is great we're about to start our latest one which is a full Ironman distance triathlon one in every continent we start in London then go to Arizona, Cape Town, Perth, Dubai, Rio and Antarctica.

8:37And we're trying to do that in 21 days. The current world record is four years. Which would be the record by four years. That's insane. Yeah. But like, I think it's all, I see it as quite, we're raising money again this time for James's Place, which is a male suicide prevention charity, the founders of which are fantastic. I had them in Untappd the other day, Claire Wentworth-Stanley and her son Harry. and they were just phenomenal and the work they do is so amazing so it gives the whole thing purpose as well as wanting to explore my own limits yeah i get to use my platform i suppose to raise money to make a real difference to men in crisis so that there's a lot going on with it each time it's not just some there's not one single focus yeah the adventure part of it i find so interesting so this week last week i don't know what day of the week is today i went to the royal Geographical Society to watch a talk my really good friend Arlen Kager who you would actually love he's a Norwegian explorer in his 60s he was the first man to do the North Pole the South Pole and Everest unaided wow on the planet like he's made history he's full of amazing stories and he did this hour-long talk mainly about North Pole expeditions and it was absolutely fascinating but right at the end he was talking about adventure being so important because if we sink into the mundanity of life which we all have to you know for large periods of our life whether it's child rearing or you're going to work you just gotta earn a living whatever a lot of it is mundane but i think some of the time we go i'll do an adventure in the future or like when i've retired i'll start living and he said what you don't want to do obviously is get to hopefully a ripe old age and look back and go oh that was life yeah that was all life and i and i was just waiting for the moment where I could start living and that's why I admire these big challenges because it is you taking life by the reins and saying I'm going to live life to the max right now I'm not going to delay it and put it off do you have that sort of sense of urgency do you think naturally um yeah I completely agree with everything you've said I mean you know I I feel that we're probably here once and you know it is a privilege to be able to go and do these things You know, I think when you look at my life, I am lucky, right?

11:01I'm in a fortunate position to be able to work and even turn these things into work and be backed by brands to be able to put them on. Like, you know, I'm in a not a unique position, but a lucky position to be able to take the time to do this kind of thing. So going and doing a 21 day expedition, you know, to raise money for charity is not something that people can just do generally speaking. So I feel super fortunate, genuinely, to be able to be the person to do that and hopefully raise significant funds doing it. But yeah, I've always been a lover of life. You know, I've loved my life for as long as I can remember.

11:37You know, that doesn't mean to say that we haven't had the odd pepperings of bad times, obviously losing Michael and numerous other things. I think it's not possible to constantly be happy. It's not always possible to feel motivated to go out and do the things you want to do. you know I keep a pretty balanced view of that but you know I think if you're able to break out of that mold particularly if you don't like the mold that you're in yeah I think it's really important yeah you know I had a number of I've had a number of different jobs over the years I worked in the city for a while mostly because I felt that my family were proud of my brothers but not necessarily proud of me because I was always an attention-seeking party boy who who you know drank to excess on pretty much daily basis and my brother James was always this beautifully morally correct high achieving person who was so different to me and and that created this big gap between us and so I naturally wanted to be more like him so I would copy him you know even though I didn't really feel like copying him and you know ended up working in the city for for three and a half years hated every single day of it you know just because you I felt like that's what I had to do so you know I just did the, you know, being on the tube every single morning at 6am.

12:54Normal stuff, not a problem. But I didn't love the, I didn't ever see a future in it. Wasn't for you. So it was kind of pointless doing it. Yeah. How much of that, knowing that your parents may have approved more of your siblings, still drives you today in these challenges? Any of it? Yeah, a little bit. I think, you know, I have a really small group of people in my life by choice, really. I know a lot of people and love a lot of people. But, you know, people I really care about who I jump in front of a car for pretty, pretty. Yeah. Not not many people. You know, my wife, my family, my kids, my parents, my brother, you know, a lot of a lot of core family and then maybe three or four close friends, you know, and I like it that way.

13:39I think those who you really love being proud of you for me is a big driver. You know, I think it's funny coming from a reality TV background where everyone has an opinion of you. Yeah. Because you have to kind of monitor that in, how should I say it? It's quite easy to fall into the trap of wanting to be liked by everyone. Impossible. You know, and in my particular case, I went completely the other way of that. You know, when we were filming Made in Chelsea, I cared so on the surface, I cared so little about what other people thought that you behave in ways that, you know, are preposterous in order to create, you know, drama for a TV show that you're in.

14:17And then you live with that for a bit. And so at the end of the day, I guess, when would it have been a couple of years ago? Maybe I look back at it and I was like, whose opinion do I really value? Right. My brother's opinion, my wife's opinion, my parents opinion, maybe another handful of opinions in the world. and so just let's let's behave in ways that are admirable for them and for yourself yeah you know i think you're never going to please everyone you can't it's absolutely and actually what you end up doing is diluting your personality like to fit everybody and you can't there'll always be someone that is pissed off doesn't like you i feel exactly the same you know certainly for the majority of my broadcasting career before I started podcasting which I feel is maybe more of an experiment where people come to you because they like what you do when you're on the BBC or ITV you're on you're in someone's front room they've put the channel on and you're there you know there's sort of little choice so that to me felt like a bit of a trap like how do I get everybody to like me this feels impossible and I think towards the latter part of my broadcasting career that's where I started to just sort of become as vanilla as I could to not rock the boat or be too anything.

15:34I don't want to be too much, too loud, too enthusiastic. And actually, sometimes I am really enthusiastic or I am or I do laugh too much or whatever. And it's like, oh, I just can't care anymore. It's too draining. It's too draining. And all you can do is be the best version of yourself, whatever that is. And like you say, worry about the small pool of people that you actually do give a shit about yeah I think there's nothing better than than feeling that you're doing the right thing by them yeah and I think um if you if in my particular case you know I lived with a lot of shame when I was drinking excessively you know I interviewed Ulrika Johnson and that's amazing well thank you but I thought it was amazing as well not not my part in it but her she's great her honesty her openness her candidness and actually that interview came about because because BBC News, I think it was, read an excerpt of her essay that she wrote about being sober for a year.

16:28And her experience almost exactly mirrored mine. Really? Wow. She was talking about kneeling in a cupboard underneath the stairs, having shots of rum in the morning, out of sight, out of view from everyone, knowing it's the wrong thing to do. And I've been there with that, you know, having shots of whiskey or tequila in the morning, you know, just like putting a bottle somewhere that, you know, nobody ever goes in the house and just kind of wandering down there and having a quick shot in the morning you know it's terrible behavior you know I'm a father and well I mean less so uh it was kind of just thinking about that I'm a father of three and therefore I would like to avoid that behavior now if I can that kind of behavior was pre-kids but it's kind of I I associated so much with like I I it really resonated with me so I reached out to her and I said please can we talk about this on my show because because you know I've had the identical experience to you and it would be an amazing opportunity to be able to to talk about it and what came out of it was was this deep sense of shame and and this and carrying around the shame and and the lies that come with it you know like have you been drinking today no of course i haven't and you kind of like it's you're almost you know you know that either the drink or the smell or something has has has given it away but you feel so embarrassed about the fact that you've had this early drink that you kind of immediately lie about it and uh and you're lying to the people who who love you the most because some random person is not really gonna care they don't love you enough to ask that question so i don't know it was it was just it was an interesting i can't really remember what we were talking about who cares it's very interesting but i'm interested in the shame part right you know we talk quite a lot about shame here we had a really great interview recently with charlie maxi and a lot of it was about shame not not to do with alcohol it was to do with just sort of general shame that so many of us carry it I've I carried it around for years and I'm sort of slowly unpicking that do you still feel it today even though you're not drinking excessively and drinking in the morning have you managed to move through it get through it yeah so so I'm gladly that brings me back to what I just forgot uh so it's perfect the uh no I don't feel a sense of shame anymore that's amazing and and that ended with the 30 marathons so like the crossing the finish line that day on the on the 27th of august last year a lot of that shame vanished kind of in that moment and because what you proved yourself that you were better than you thought yeah just i don't know what it was about that moment it was just kind of like from the shots of whiskey in the morning to completing a world first you know on quite a big stage you know we'd we'd hand it up a fair amount to the point where failure was would have been really great yeah no exactly i don't mind failing either but it's like it was actually i i put quite a lot of pressure on myself with that one because you know we've done press and pr and a big fundraiser we'd raise loads of money and it was kind of like if i roll my ankle on the first day this is gonna suck so bad yeah and i had niggles on the first day that i'd never felt before and the first day was probably the hardest day and i was thinking fuck like you know like what like i can't do another 29 of these and anyway thankfully you know said a few prayers to mike etc everything just like loosened up and became easier thank god because 29 days of day one wouldn't another 29 days of day one wouldn't have been possible but anyway there was this it was a real sense of achievement you know and and for somebody who has felt a lot of shame and who in reality hadn't achieved much right i've heard you call your your previous your past self a loser yeah well I did feel like a loser and I think you know you can beat yourself up all you want you can't change the past and I'm delighted with my past in a way because it's brought me to the person I am today and I'm far happier with who I am today than I was then and there's plenty uh left to go you know I love learning I love growing I love I love life as an experience and I think it's interesting to hit those moments where you feel like a loser and you feel shit about your behavior and you know I remember this one night I drank a bottle of whiskey and and you know I was calling friends to see if they wanted to come over I was on my own Vogue was away filming something working doing really well you know being this person that everyone adores and everyone loves and I just felt like a fucking loser like I felt like a fucking loser like and I knew that I would lose her as well if I lose her lose her if I carried on but I kind of carried on anyway and uh and I called I was calling my friends and like you know slurring down a phone do you want to come around like everyone's just saying no mate like it's Tuesday night or whatever and eventually one of my friends came around and uh took one look at me and put my arm over his shoulder walked me to my bedroom lay me down and left that's a good friend well at the time I was like what has just happened like this is so embarrassing so So when you take feelings like that and moments like that in your life to then cross this finish line, having lost 11 kilos, you know, hammering through the Jordanian desert for 30 straight days to, you know, to make a big difference for kids who really need it.

21:38Of course, it's this big feeling of like, I did it and I knew I can do it and I've done it, you know. And like that feeling was one of the best feelings of my life, you know, aside from having children, meeting Vogue, you know, I mean, just like a personal experience. yeah you know it was it was tremendous so when you're in that frame of mind where you feel like a loser and i'm not saying any of this with judgment we've all had moments that we can look back and we can regret or we know we've made shitty decisions or whatever it might be i think what you just said is really important learning to find peace with that earlier version of yourself is integral to find self-compassion today if we're i used to bury old versions of myself like not looking la la la la like all the era where people used to put in magazines Fern Cotton Rock Chick like I couldn't even think about that version of myself I've created this sort of like weird gargoyle-esque creature with like black eyeliner and like rocky hair and a leather jacket I'm like I reject you and actually no I can't like I have to go thank you for all the things you did that have led me to where I am today and the more I rejected her the more I found it so difficult to like myself today and I think that integration of the old version of yourself with the one today is so important it's not like I'm a better version today it's like no this is that's the best I could do at that time and that's really important but when you're in that frame of mind and you feel like a loser and you're like everything's going wrong obviously it's very easy to slip into victim mentality like my life is bad or I'm drinking because of this and it's this person's fault or there's some level of blame it's very hard to get out of that what was the wake-up call that switched your mindset blame is a really good word most people who feel like they're suffering blame somebody else and that's a really important point I did that when I had an agent who you will no doubt know called John Noll yeah he was hilarious like I love John Noll I genuinely get a kick out of you know bumping into John Knoll every so often I think he's I think he's a wonderful man and we've had we're no longer working together but um I have a deep respect for him because he's brutally honest and he says it how he how it is and he he's just he's a legend I genuinely I think he's amazing he said to me one day you're drinking too much and I'm struggling to get you work because you're drinking like a fish and i you know i go straight to oh maybe he's a shit agent he's not a shit agent obviously he's looking after tons of like you know like the equivalent of a-list talent over here anyway long story short he sent me to see this guy chip summers who specializes in addiction i've met chip have you yeah through divina yeah yeah yeah absolutely he was very helpful to divina as well and i went to see him i didn't have a drink the night before on purpose just because i wanted to i wanted chip to report to john that there was nothing wrong with with me right you know john was wrong type thing and i walked into chip's office and he goes he goes you reek of whiskey and i was like haha like no i don't i haven't had a drink type thing and he was like when was the last time you did drink i was like yesterday you know during the day and he was like you must be drinking a lot i was like i drink it he's like do you drink every day i was like i drink most days and he goes yeah he goes big problem big problem i was like no no it's kind of it's all right like i do you just fine and he was like i'm gonna have to tell the next person that comes in this room that i haven't been drinking because you smell so bad wow yeah and i was like okay and we uh started having a chat and and i just i really like chip and anyway long story short i did six months of total abstinence and it was one of the best six months of my life like i just i just loved it very hard at first um not not as hard as i thought it might be yeah like i i because it doesn't take long to realize how nice it is to have a clear mind and be free of alcohol and there was a specific relationship with chip where i wanted i wanted to impress him you know like it like it became this thing where we agreed to meet every week at the same time so there was seven days between the meeting seven days in a week and uh you're gonna sing a frank david song yeah yeah and he said uh and every time i would show up bright and bushy tales you know we'd agree to do another seven days and and and it became this thing that even if i felt like having a beer i'd be like oh no i really want to be able to have that moment with chip again wow you know and it was great and really cool and um but i would blame john i would blame others i would blame mike's death i would blame all kinds of stuff you know like my my lack of empathy today comes from all kinds of things but but it's you know it's taking that blame away from others it's very rarely other people's fault that you're feeling a certain way and in the rare occasion of somebody doing something that's so terrible that it has a dramatic effect on you which is obviously you know they have an impact on you usually these feelings of you know dread and pain are coming from something within yourself yeah and blaming others is an easy way out so Did you know where your pain was coming from?

26:58If you're not to blame circumstance or other people, what was forcing you to drink every day? I wasn't forced to drink every day. I enjoyed it, firstly. And I knew what I was doing. It's only really in the kind of last days in the lead up to going, right, like this has to end. Where I did feel a lack of control, you know, where it was more kind of like, oh, God, I know it's a bad idea to have a drink now. but I can't stop myself, you know, and that's what you hear about in AA and this lack of ability to control things and being powerless over your actions. I actually, at the risk of sounding controversial, kind of disagree with that as a, not AA as a model, but this lack of control.

27:43I believe deep down we have an ability to control the way that we behave. That I believe to be true. AA helps millions of people save millions of lives, but this idea that you have absolutely no power over what you put in your mouth it doesn't it's never sat very well with me but that's because I suppose I like to think that I am in control do you believe you're an addict yeah I think so I don't it's it's I think and I think it's not a great word to be honest because I think you hear the word addict you know you think of somebody on a park bench you know who hasn't slept in days and who's just waiting for a fix that that's how i picture an addict even i think it i think it's pretty complicated to be honest and i think it's quite an unhelpful label people who even may feel that they are addicts tend not to seek help because they don't want to label themselves an addict do i have an addictive nature absolutely like am i addicted to drugs and alcohol no because i can go you know i can go years without drinking and i have done you know i recently did seven months of no drinking it's my wife's 40th birthday party tonight i'll probably have a couple of drinks it's her 40th tonight it's her 40th party birthday vogue but you know what i mean like i i have a different relationship with it now and actually coming back to your question about shame which is really interesting i know that tonight i'll probably have two or three margaritas and then I'll pump the brakes and I'll stop because I know what happens if I don't yeah I have kids to look after I have businesses to run hang over with kids is it's no joke but I am able to do that which is which is great because you know there was a point in my life where I really felt like I might not be able to do that and that total abstinence might be the only route for me and I think I think total anything like on off is is a shame you know I think if you can if you can eat really healthily but eat unhealthily sometimes it's obviously better than you know always eating unhealthily i see alcohol as similar to food by the way so like you know obviously i do an awful lot of training and you know i try and live a really fit healthy life but i'll eat a really shit meal every so often yeah that's kind of similar to having a beer to me yeah just finding the balance in it so has some of that addictive nature moved to the world of challenges is that the new addiction pushing yourself yeah yeah i think so i think you're if you're another kind of person that that has had problems with with drink or drugs and if you're able to stop drinking and taking drugs you will want to channel that energy into other things whether that be you know kids if you have them business if you have if you want to start one fitness gymming you know lifting weights you will find that you want to channel all of this fresh energy into something else people say that to me like it like it's an insult not you but like I have people sometimes saying, oh, yeah, well, you only run this much because you don't drink anymore.

30:39So now you're addicted to running. It's like, yeah, so what? It's kind of great. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't really care if I'm really into pushing myself or if I'm addicted to pushing myself. Those things are the same to me. I'm obsessed with lots of things. How are you on the flip side with deep rest? Because all of us need it probably more than we care to believe. I at the moment feel so tired and I know I've been sort of juggling a lot with the kids and work and pushing myself and I'm in this habit or I have been the last few weeks of, you know, if I've got a moment before school pick up or whatever to have a bath or rest, I'm like, no, you've got emails to do.

31:19You must complete the tasks. I'm like a robot. And I need to have like two days of nothingness. And I'm going to allow myself to do that this weekend. You must do it. I know, but it's so, I think if you're used to pushing yourself, pushing yourself, go, go, go. I love doing, you know, I am a real doer and I have to really force myself to stop and go, no, you're allowed to like sit and watch a shit film for a bit or just do absolutely fuck all. I find it mentally sometimes really hard to get myself to that place. Are you good at giving yourself a break? Yeah. You are? I am quite good at that, yeah.

31:56So Vogue's not, Vogue is the same as you. So, you know, we're both pretty busy. And Vogue, if Vogue has a day off, she'll like reorganize all the kids' clothes. Yeah, I love doing that. Yeah, do you? Yeah. God, I love you. You couldn't pay me. I'm not messing up. I feel so mentally cleansed after a cupboard clear out. Really? Yeah. I love it. Yeah, so she's pretty similar. But you'll never catch her just like sitting down reading a book. Yeah. She reads at night and we get into bed and stuff. but um and stuff are we getting to bed at night like everyone yeah yeah but uh but no she is um she struggles with that i think she feels she gets like mum guilt and guilt during the day if she feels like she should be working when she's not the reality of my situation is you know i i have a few businesses and obviously right now at this particular time of talking to you i've got i've got a ton going on we've got untapped stuff clean co stuff new formulations coming out new fundraise happening uh untapped is going really really well it's exciting and interesting lots of mistakes being made across both of those businesses but that's that's great fun and important you know traveling around interviewing people we've got um you know plenty happening project seven obviously with the fundraise for james's place but also these seven iron man distance triathlons and all the training that comes with that so my plate is as full as i want it to be i could fill a 24 hour day with 24 hours of work so where's the rest um i ordinarily it's it's a strange time to be asking me this because normally i sleep for eight hours roughly every night pretty good sleep i'm the kind of guy that i sleep better than my children you know i put my head down and i'm asleep like no i know really lucky the last four nights it's come out of nowhere i suddenly understand what people are talking about yeah it's so weird yeah so four nights ago get to sleep four nights ago had a normal work day i'm not under any unusual amounts of stress by the way like i am like i have a lot that could be deemed stressful happening all of the time you're coping i am quite used to it though like like i do find pleasure in you know pushing it and being on the brink of pain or whatever you want to call it or you know all these shows uh but like i'm kind of like it doesn't bother me yeah at all really i'm pretty calm about the whole thing get into bed and I lay down and I'm just like I'm like wide awake and I shut my eyes to go to sleep normal stuff like it's almost like when I shut my eyes like they're still open right oh I know that feeling like genuinely like you may as well not even try yeah and I'm trying to go to sleep it's almost more effort to have them closed yeah yeah yeah like you're making an effort to shut your eyes and I was just like okay so this is strange so I read a book for about like half an hour same thing I was like what's going on put the TV on watch something and I'm lying there and it's now like 11.30 and I'm just like, I'm just like, what is going on?

34:52Like normally I'd be like flatlining by 11.30, right? REM, you're there. And no, nothing. I fell asleep at four. Couldn't sleep and I'm like tossing and turning and getting a bit, and Vogue's literally just like, babe, like, will you like go and sleep downstairs? I was just like, going what downstairs? Sleep? That's the thing of the past. Anyway, so like literally, so I went downstairs, nothing on, no screens, nothing. Pitch black room. I'm lying in bed and I couldn't sleep for hours. And I was like, what the fuck is happening? Like, what is happening? Like, no alcohol, nothing. I'm just like, okay, so anyway.

35:27So I eventually fell asleep at four, had to get up at six, slept for two hours. And I was just like, that was the weirdest thing that's ever happened to me. Like, obviously, I've had sleepless nights when we used to go out all the time. Yeah, and you had newborn babies and all the usual stuff. Nothing was getting in my way at all, right? I hadn't had late coffee, nothing, zero. Same thing happened the following night. so like I had a full day of work and I got into bed I hate this for you no no no I've still not shaken it properly so I got into bed and I was just like oh my fucking god I'm not going to be able to fall asleep again because you've got the paranoia about it I know I know but I used to be that guy when people would say this to me and I'd be like mate just shut your eyes and go to sleep like shut up like literally no it's a thing yeah it's a thing it's a thing and I had a better night I still fell asleep at about 1 and got up at 6 what's going on two hours then five hours and then um then i i had to go up to liverpool i was interviewing mike murray who's an amazing ceo by the way he's the ceo of fraser's group youngest ceo in the footsie 250 or something he's a pretty impressive dude uh and i interviewed him and in the hotel room again couldn't sleep i'm like i got some sleep i got six hours sleep again but like i don't like this no i'm not into it no what's going on i don't know i don't know i'm gonna speak to a therapist It's the weirdest thing because I would understand if you were lying in bed and your mind was like racing.

36:46No, you just can't. You were really worried about something or really nervous. I'm not nervous about anything. I'm not frightened about anything at the moment. I don't have any like fear of something happening. It could be the Ed Gein Netflix thing. What's that? The Ed Gein story on the monsters. Oh, no. See, I can't watch stuff like that. No, no. But OK, so for the listeners, if you haven't watched. OK, so they made the Dharma documentary. I love a serial killer documentary. I don't. I love it. I'm kind of fascinated by it. No. I can't even watch anything sort of mildly negative. It needs to be either factual and sunny or funny or romantic.

37:25Otherwise, no thank you. Okay, so I could watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and go straight to bed. Genuinely. Couldn't care less. Vogue is the opposite. If she saw a single frame of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, she wouldn't sleep all night. Okay, me and Vogue should be married. Yes, I think so. I'm getting a vibe that you're very similar. Yeah. Yeah. And the Ed Gein story. Sorry, this probably isn't in your notes or relevant to the interview, but it is worth mentioning. It is the most I've never seen anything like it on on a screen in my life. I've never seen anything like it. I'm definitely watching it.

37:57I don't understand how it is legal. Like it comes obviously within age 18, but 18 is far too young to be watching. I think you need to be 50. Right. To watch this thing. it's the most depraved thing i've ever seen the the gore in it is remarkable like like you think they'll cut away they don't they don't you see the whole thing he's uh like full necrophilia scene everything like no no no it's it's it could be that i think it it may it might i don't like i don't even want to admit it but i think it might be like but like i can't unwatch it sometimes i'm lying in bed and i'm like when i can't sleep and i just see like a chainsaw going through someone's head okay i think you shouldn't have watched it i think you shouldn't can we watch like lots of emily in paris to cancel it out he's gorgeous not as ed gein obviously but charlie hunnam is i mean you have the power to get charlie hunnam in here you absolutely should he's he's uh he's phenomenal i love charlie hunnam okay i uh i don't know what to say about this sleep thing tremendous performance we need to talk we need to talk to a therapist about this it's not good before your challenge this is not ideal for you this is not ideal no i went and hammered a particularly hard track session the other day like one that would put me in bed early type thing like a real i can't go any further yeah like vomiting at the end of the session even though i didn't have anything to throw up type thing like like full full pelt full pelt rinsing on purpose right just just to make sure that my body went oh got into bed nothing no spencer okay we're gonna sort this out look i i sleep better now i'm still not great but back in the day i didn't sleep i just used to lie there all night worrying about everything and like you say closing my eyes was full of effort it was like laborious to shut my eyes it can be fixed um we had your great friend and my very good friend jamie lang on the podcast and we had such a lovely chat we talked about made in chelsea and we talked about everything that i said a moment ago me trying to not reject earlier versions of myself he feels like he's at a place where he can own the maiden chelsea thing he's like at peace with it feels quite celebratory about it actually that it's been a big launch pad for him he assumed you wouldn't feel the same um i i regret parts of it not that you can change it i and also i i i see life slightly differently to jamie i think that i think that if people give their full attention to something that they can achieve things regardless of i i don't see it as a huge launch platform for me to be honest i see it as something that i've had to almost dispel so i don't look back at it wholeheartedly with dread you know like i i really enjoyed the first couple of series for example i thought it was original and interesting and new and you know and fun and and cool and actually the scenes were quite real and and it was it all felt and also obviously it was very successful you know which which at the time was came as a surprise i think to us you know genuinely i believed be great to do a series of this and then go and be a tv presenter right because you know it'd be great to get a face out there a bit you know um experience a bit of fame potentially and then when the thing crash and burns come and lick my job you know i'll come and uh and you know try and present this morning or something i don't know you know that that was the thought process at the time not that i would ever have had the skill to present this morning but that was the thought process at the time and yeah i don't know it kind of it kind of grew arms and legs and it became it was pretty toxic i have to say at times you know because there was a lot that you were saying doing that didn't feel real at all you know and all of a sudden that's strange because some people think it is real some cast members think it is real and others know it's not and it just feels like this big disjointed quite toxic machine then where people's lives and feelings and emotions are being tugged on by producers you know for your entertainment and you know i'm really lucky to have my nature you know i'm pretty thick-skinned and i think you've got to be in a show like that chuck stuff at me and it'll just slide off my back Like, you know, if I read some insanely horrible comments about me, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, although I might nowadays.

42:24But then I couldn't have cared less. Genuinely, I couldn't have given a shit. I find that fascinating because, again, I care too much. I'm writing a book about this at the moment, about how bothered we are about how much other people like us. That's amazing. That's great. I can look forward to reading that. Yeah, I'm really enjoying it. It's been hugely, it's come at the right time for me, this idea. I came up with this idea in the thick of healing from sort of people pleasing and all of this kind of thing. But I think to be on a very prominent reality TV show, it's very hard unless you've got a suit of armour on.

42:59Because you are being, I mean, any sort of one in the public eye at a young age is being hurled at all sorts of commentary they might not want to hear. So you do have to learn how to sort of bat it away. do you feel you've got more of an issue with the show itself or that version of you or did it accentuate that version of you maybe it absolutely accentuated that version of me i'd do things on purpose that i knew were wrong because we were filming and then i'd kind of go back to my normal life and have dinner with my mum you know and just be like hopefully a nice son to her you know it was kind of the whole thing was very strange you'd shoot an argument with someone at a bar and if you dominated that argument that conversation won easily but it didn't fit the storyline they would change it by like you'd wrap and you'd leave and then the other person would film saying something that they didn't really say wow to somebody else and then they'd cut it into the scene and they'd just show a reaction shot of you not saying anything so the the episode would come out and you'd go what's like that didn't happen so like the whole thing is just you know a shame and it was just like as i say it was great at times we got to do extraordinary things we got to travel the world and you know jamie and i had had poor i mean a very turbulent time but we spent you know three months living together in new york filming made in chelsea new york awesome experiences for young people i'm not i'm not whinging and you know as far as biting the hand that fed me goes i'm not i'm not biting it i just look back at it sometimes and think I wish I had done certain things differently.

44:34I think as a platform, it's a great platform. As a show, it's not the most exciting thing to me. You know, I don't watch reality TV and never have, right? So I personally don't really understand why you would ever engage in, oh, look at these like kids running around doing nothing. You know, it's - I love a bit of reality. Do you? It just helps my brain switch off big time. like the Kardashians I'm like bring it on let me see which tie Kris Jenner's wearing today let's go I love it because I don't have to use my brain I'm just like imbibing someone else's life heaven I think that's all it is right helping you switch off bubble gum yeah there's a place for all of it that's fine I think in the environment that we were in it was taken very seriously yeah yeah the storylines were really serious and I was more with you just thinking like no one cares about this like it doesn't matter like who cares like I wasn't invited to bring his party who gives a fuck it's not even a real party who cares like you know it's kind of like the whole thing is just a job like we turn up and then we clock out we get paid you know it's like it's like i saw it as very similar to icap you know like i would turn up or i'd do my job i would leave you know and then your real life starts and that's that's what it was like to me it wasn't real yeah you know you're spending a lot of time with people you wouldn't really spend time with that's not a diss to them at all they just weren't my kind of real friends i suppose i don't know jamie and i have had a long uh interesting relationship i suppose it's a lot of people are interested in my relationship with jamie yeah it's um it's uh we've known each other for 20 years wow yeah 20 22 years so you know highs lows i i have a huge amount of respect for jamie i think jamie is incredible uh many things um you know we we have we have we have had our problems yeah as as a relationship we're like brothers yeah exactly so that's the thing when you're when you're as tightly bonded as we are you're gonna fall out you're gonna have big fallouts like brothers do you know and that's the thing is this isn't some superficial relationship where you let things slide type thing You know, we are, we are, we for many years were joint at the hip, like, you know, brothers.

46:48Yeah. So that's what brings, it's the same as like married couples who have, who love each other so deeply that you have these big, you know, fiery arguments that you don't have with other people. It's because you love each other so much because it matters, right? Like the conversation matters. Similar with me and Jamie. Yeah, it's lovely. And it's honest. And that's what we all like seeing. that's why it is interesting and people are intrigued hey Spencer before we wrap up I would like to ask you where is your happy place? oh with the kids I love well god there are ages you're like maybe not with the kids they're pretty actually hang on sometimes sometimes with the kids so so no honestly when the kids are in bed yeah asleep no so I'm trying not to bash the boys the boys are different to my girl right so gigi is calm loving yeah sweet like loves cuddling loves kissing comes into daddy in the middle of the night it gets on my chest like snuggles into me heaven sweet little kind of princess leah buns like great big fat chops like you know just just like she she she genuinely is my she's my comfort blanket the boys are less affectionate which is fine they're a bit like vogue um vogue isn't one for like you know handholdy kissing right okay we we are affectionate but like she's she's like i could hold her for a good like few minutes in the morning whereas like you know 20 seconds is probably okay for her right got you like in the morning yeah especially if we haven't brushed our teeth yeah um so so i love all i love all of my children equally but there is a i have this bond with my my daughter i think it's fairly normal as well you hear about the daddy daughter thing like that is a real thing if you're if you're a if you're a guy listening to this who wants to have sons like for whatever reason right when i wanted to have uh kids i always wanted son i wanted three boys i don't know why just it's just a thing and we were actually told that she was a boy like i don't know why so we had a boy and then having another boy and then we found out uh before the birth that she was a girl and a little part of me was like oh yeah i I wanted my little crew of boys.

49:05She is, like, the fact that we have a girl is just the most incredible. And all of my friends now who are having kids who are having a girl, I'm just like, you're so lucky because the bond is tremendous. So we snug a lot. That's a happy place for me. So at night, I'll hold her for a good, like, 20 minutes before bed. In the morning, even when they're, like, getting ready for school, I'll pick her up and put her on my chest while everyone's having breakfast. Oh, heaven. Snugs, I love a snug. I'm very tactile. Yeah. I love a snug. Sometimes our youngest is quite, it's my seven-year-old, I've kind of missed the snug window.

49:42He doesn't like a snug. He gives me his forehead. Yeah, you won't get that now. I mean, my 12-year-old, I'm not even allowed to say goodbye at the school gates. It's just, I have to ignore him. I'll go for a kiss on his cheek, right, to give him a big kiss on the cheek. I just, I get the forehead. Yeah. Yeah. That only gets worse. I don't want the forehead. Anyway, so I still have it with my daughter, So I cherish that happy place. St. Bart's is a happy place for me. Yeah, it looks gorgeous. It's beautiful. It's it's kind of it's I've seen it in all its iterations. So so I grew up there. So when I was when I was six, we moved there and it was nothing like it is today.

50:18It's just a kind of hidden gem in the Caribbean, all overgrown, lots of stray cats and cockroaches and, you know, palm trees, you know, that are bending over double in the wind and stuff. but it was a very special place, you know, and I spent a lot of my childhood on that Caribbean island. Nowadays you go and it's, you know, all super swanky, super high-end A-listers and yachts everywhere, but it never used to be like that, and both have their cool parts, but I love that island. There's something about the islands that when we touch down and get out of the plane and it's 32 degrees, really hot wind.

50:52Oh, when the heat hits you, there's nothing better. You get off and just on that first time your feet go into the sand and stuff. And just like, I love that. I feel like it's home. Like that's home to me. So, yeah, they're a couple of happy places. Well, they both are gorgeous. And I want to wish you all the luck with your crazy next challenge. Thank you. You're going to nail it. Thanks so much, Fen, for having me on a second time. Real pleasure as always. And see you soon. Thank you, Spencer. I think you are utterly brilliant and completely mad. That challenge is insane. The determination, the single focused mind on this human being is like nothing I've seen before.

51:30But I found that really, really helpful and motivating, quite frankly. If you want to donate to Spencer's Project 7 Challenge in aid of James's Place Charity, there'll be a link in the show notes for you. So do check it out. What are you doing to get that sense of adventure in your life? Mine at the moment completely involves a small kitten called Fig. She's like watching her adventure around the house. I'm living through her eyes. It's so adorable. But what's your sense of adventure? What challenges are you taking on? What does adventure mean to you? Head to our Instagram at happyplaceofficial and let us know.

52:04All right, until next time, a massive thanks again to Spencer, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you gorgeous lot.

52:21Thank you.