Stephen Graham and Orly Klein: "Consent, compassion, condom!" The advice teenage boys need

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that shines a light on the stuff that can be difficult to talk about. Today, I'm chatting to Stephen Graham and Orly Klein. Look, if I'm really honest, I just remember when I read an article and I read that, you know, a young girl had been stabbed to death in Liverpool. And there was three boys that were arrested. It hit my heart. I just thought, have we got to this point where a young lad thinks that this is OK. Or an even possibility. Where does that come from? And we don't have a clear message for boys at all.

0:35I think we've been quite good at having a clear positive message for girls. But we just don't have one for boys. I feel the biggest masculine quality of a man is his vulnerability. Irrespective of your political views, ultimately you want to raise a young man who has empathy and love. So, like many of you, I am entering the realms of having teenage children. my son is 13 and I guess with that new little age category that I'm in comes some fear I guess it's fear isn't it and also me sort of burying my head in the sand slightly whether you've got teenage girls or boys I think it's it's a time where you the the worry does ramp up slightly you want to let them go off and find out who they are in the world and work out what they like and who they want to hang out with but you've got to also loosen the reins and that feels terrifying I think especially bringing up kids in this digital day and age where you know you might have phones or they've got tablets and they're looking at whether it's YouTube or Snapchat or whatever they're using and it's hard to know how much of it we should be governing and looking at and how much we should be checking in on the content they're watching and how you go about it it's what you know me and many of my mates talk about constantly how do we parent in this weird time and today we're focusing specifically on teenage boys although we talk about all sorts in this chat it's by all means not just for people that are raising kids in any capacity it's a chat about societal pressures it's a chat about communication it's many many things but we are looking at also raising sons in a world where we can all see toxic masculinity and I'm sure many of us watched the Louis Theroux documentary Manosphere which I found like horrifying actually I was um I was really living under a rock I watched that and was like what these people exist this is crazy um it was an education in itself and of course adolescence which you'll know Stephen Graham worked so hard to create and also appear very much so in adolescence what a cultural shift that show was just unbelievable so what emerged from the show adolescence were loads of wider cultural conversations around masculinity and fatherhood and the pressures that young people face.

3:13So Stephen has now teamed up with psychology lecturer and researcher Orly Klein to co-author Letters to Our Sons. It's a beautiful book. Oh, this book is so, so beautiful. It's a collection of letters from fathers to sons from all walks of life. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life.

3:57That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

4:37See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

5:22Stephen and Orly, what a dream having you here. This is so special, this project. Thank you. It's so special. Thank you. Obviously, your worlds have collided very beautifully. and in quite an extraordinary way how you know this is one of those moments where you go oh fate yeah fate's a thing totally yeah yeah it's so cool absolutely so Orly obviously you've got a background in psychology and also specifically working with young men so I'm imagining that seeing adolescence was a bit of a moment for you anyway yeah totally although we did the letters to my son before that so he turned 13 a couple of years ago and um we'd been having discussions about what does it mean to be a good man and i think all the stuff that's kind of toxic masculinity stuff was in the background of that conversation as well and um i remember getting some email from his school asking us to speak to our sons about it actually that's that's probably what led to it and we made this decision to ask some guys that we love and admire or thought were cool or thought were just kind of different you know if they'd write him a letter on what it means to be a good man and what they wish they'd have known when they were younger and maybe this is my psychology training kind of thing but we were really determined to try and get as wide a range of men as possible in that we didn't want to just ask our close friends and family because then he'd just be hearing from kind of knackered middle-aged gits do you know what I mean cynical old sods that you know don't even bother but um so we deliberately asked you know thought we kind of had like a long list really of people from different ages and backgrounds and situations and and then we just went contacts in the moment and you know we were just um you know ex-colleagues that had retired and someone's dad and you know like all these sort of things and obviously not everyone did it or replied or said they do it didn't get rounds for it but we ended up with 20 amazing letters and they just blew us away and you know when you don't realize actually this is great and um they were funny they were moving they were surprising some of them and it was lovely it was just lovely and I started telling people about it and and then one of my old colleagues said actually that would be a great book so that's kind of where it all started and in the meanwhile adolescence came out and of course just blew us away and I remember not watching it straight away because I was like I've got to steal my you know like I feel myself for this yeah yeah yeah yeah I knew it was going to be a gut punch and and needed to kind of ready myself and then when I did and obviously it was amazing and so talked about that in the book proposal and yeah everything else then just fell into place it was just and you kind of weirdly knew someone that knew you yeah a old friend of mine was over from australia and um organized an afternoon out for her friends and family and i got chatting to her sister and said oh what do you do and she said oh i've recently changed careers i've started working in a literary agency and that's steven's friend jude and that brings me beautifully to Jude yes who's been my mate for 33 years she's like my little sister um and I adore her and she's a wonderful wonderful wonderful woman she came through cancer a few years back do you know what I mean and it was a it was a long tricky road um but she's just such an inspirational beautiful woman and she said to me look I've got this idea this proposition and I was like okay what are you on about what is it because I'll do anything for her do you know what I mean and she said well it's about this boot thing and I went stop there and she was like what and I went just come to ours I haven't seen you for ages just come to ours and she was like really I was like yeah just come to ours and we'll have a cup of tea and we'll have a chat and she was like okay and then she turned up and then she stayed for a couple of days and we were in the garden chatting and she told me about this wonderful thing that all he had done which I thought was absolutely beautiful and she said do you think there's a possibility where we could maybe turn it into a book and I said yeah I think it could work I said but we'd have to bring it from a perspective of and then I just went straight away I went maybe it'd be letters to our sons sorry our sons letters to our sons and she was like oh okay and I went that's the only way I think this could work for us to take it to a different place and not be the same thing but maybe bring it into that world of fathers writing letters to their sons literally and that's kind of where we began the whole conversation then it's a beautiful idea and i know that both of you respectively feel deeply passionate about the communication between well it's not just fathers and sons i suppose it's men in general and that we do know that there is still something missing within that communication there's like a barrier what do you individually believe that is because of well I mean all I know is from like reading all the letters that so many of the men were saying to their sons like talk like just keep talking just just talk talk about your feelings talk about what's going on ask for help if you need it and and they were mostly coming from a place where they were saying, I'm not good at this and I want you to be.

10:57And, you know, I really came away with that sense of how much men kind of squash down and cut off and swallow their thoughts and feelings and don't say what they really need and don't ask for help and don't, you know, and there they were all kind of begging their sons like, please don't be like me. And it just kind of broke my heart, you know. Yeah. I mean yeah completely and I think that kind of it's generational I think in many ways do you know what I mean but suck it up yeah real men don't cry yeah don't don't cry don't be a little girl don't be crying so I think we have an obligation now to change that narrative completely do you know what I mean because if you look at it as well I think I mean I don't I don't know the statistics off the top of my head and everything so I may quote this wrong but I think it's the biggest killer of young men suicide as a society I think men have always been in that position and again I think it is generational where you know you don't talk about things you don't you don't let things out but we need to address that properly because communication is key no problem is too big once we start to talk about it it can be solved you know what I mean and that reaching out and asking for help is the first step within that and to me look it's only my perspective but it is my own opinion and I feel the biggest masculine quality of a man is his vulnerability and I think that's important you know what I mean it's important for us to talk not just to our sons but to our daughters you know what I mean to our wives and you know we no longer have to carry these big burdens on our own no I think we're aware of what these societal pressures are now you know for women it will be different there's all the expectations on us to sort of be forever nurturing and martyr like and look a certain way all of that stuff but then for men it's been be tough be strong don't show weaknesses keep it all in and we know that these archetypes exist but I think it's probably only in the last maybe 10 20 years we're starting to really explore what that impact looks like for men and women and I think for men certainly we've sadly seen like the the awful side of that whether it is suicide statistics or it's toxic masculinity totally and we're seeing that obviously elevated because of social media and how we we've now got access to so many different people's opinions and how they think about the world which is something obviously you've deeply explored with adolescence and the impact and influence that has on very young minds that are still growing.

13:38I wonder, do you think toxic masculinity, although we have an awareness of it, is actually at its worst, at its peak in terms of the impact it's having on young men and what they're doing with their lives? I think you've kind of written it on the head massively, but it's that the vulnerability element to young people being influenced by certain people and I think that's completely changed through the social media you know look as a kid growing up I had I had my cousins I had my uncles I had my pops pops came into my life when I was 10 so I had pops you know what I mean and and I had my immediate kind of men around me who were my role models not always brilliant not always fantastic but you know did their best and and you kind of guided your way through life in that in that way but today they're swamped with so many people who tell you certain things to do and tell you how to behave and give you their own narrative and what you know a lot of young people can be obsessed now with the success elements of what these people are doing do you know what i mean and it's all about kind of having a flash card and doing this and leading your life this and you can make all this money and it's like that's not really obtainable for your average everyday person no I mean or guaranteed to make you feel good but it doesn't know what I mean it's about what's inside first and it's about working on yourself do you know what I mean I've done a lot of a lot of work over my lifetime on myself in that respect and it's you find a completely different perspective and I say vulnerability is the strongest sense of masculinity but that also means the possibility of being easily influenced yeah Do you know what I mean?

15:21So it's having those strong people around you. And that doesn't necessarily have to be your father. Do you know what I mean? It can be your friends. It can be your uncles, your aunties, your mother. It's looking to those people who are being honest, being sincere, you know, and working hard for the things that we have in life. And ultimately for me as well, it's empathy. irrespective of your political views ultimately you want to raise a young man who has empathy and love there's a lot of division in the world at the minute you know what i mean there's a lot of hatred out there from both sides as well i'm not i'm not saying who's right and who's wrong i'm just saying there's a lot of it out there so this was an opportunity to just go hang on a minute look this is about love this is about nature this is about nature this is about being there for each there when you look at your father figures because you had you say your dad your biological dad and your pops what influence do you think they had on you because you know people will look to you as someone that is successful that is a good egg that has values and a moral compass in place what do you or which one of them do you think gave you that steer my biggest was my mother and that's you You know, that's just me.

16:34That's me telling her how it is. And it's strange in the serendipity of this. This book is released today on what would have been my mum's birthday. Do you know what I mean? So to me, my mother was my biggest influence. Do you know what I mean? My mother was my biggest supporter. And I'm very proud to come from a single parent background in that respect where my mum worked really hard. Do you know what I mean? My nana looked after me while my mum was at work and so did my aunties. I come from a strong group of matriarchs. Do you know what I mean? and they were the ones that instilled kind of values and traditions within me and my biological father I love him do you know what I mean we don't have a relationship he's gone on to have other children and he's been there for them children he was only 17 when he had me so he couldn't really be there for me do you know what I mean he'd had his own experiences in his own life and he he didn't have he didn't have a book he didn't have a map of how to be a dad and so we you know it didn't quite work for me but thankfully and I feel exceptionally blessed that my pops fell in love with my mum and then he fell in love with me as well do you know what I mean and he himself didn't have a map or a book of how to do it and he didn't know his father so he was learning on the job as he was raising me and we kind of learned together do you know what I mean there's a beautiful we share a beautiful relationship I adore the man and he's a wonderful granddad to my kids and I'm so blessed and I'm so honored that you know my mum and dad had Nathan my little brother who there's 20 years gap between me and our kid you know my mum had me when she was 20 and she had him when she was 40 in between that was our Kieran who my mum had a still birth and to watch my mum and pops navigate that as well do you know what I mean that was a big part of my life but what it kind of does what it did to me is and what we've just spoke about before we started this you know dysfunctional families yeah but when he worked he worked you know what I mean yeah so it's very complicated my background of a father but pops is the man who has been there for me through thick and thin from that very moment and you know I'm mixed race and so is he so he taught me about my heritage and my history and to have pride in the people of who have worked to get to where they are and give me the life that I have today so I knew all about Marcus Garvey, Toussaint L 'Obergeo, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King do you know what I mean I know my sense of identity the same way that I'm very proud of my Irish and my Scottish roots you know what I mean so it's it's Pops who has guided me and then it's me who's kind of me and him have learned as we've we've grown yeah you know what I mean it's beautiful because I think when we've got sons and daughters when we've got sons and we want them to have that guidance it doesn't always have to be the dad there are father figures that you can put in place and I know that was very much what you were trying to get with these letters is lots of different influence for your son so this was when he turned 13 you had this idea yeah to to get all of these letters together and to pass them on to your to your son what were your fears when he turned 13 because as well as this being a lovely idea I'm sure some of it was driven by oh fucking hell this he's a teenager he's going off into the wild west I'm terrified my son's 13 and I definitely yeah if I'm honest I'm probably more I'm burying my head in the sand a bit I'm like oh when he's 14 I'll really worry about it sure but I'm there you know you don't know what they're looking at on their phones you can only govern a certain amount of it without being like helicopter parent it's really difficult to know it's really difficult and I mean I don't want to pretend I have sussed it got it right at all and I think my son would agree that I have not sussed it and got it right at all but um we never do we're all wigging it oh my god one of my one of my favorite quotes from one of the letters actually is this dad who talks about having had a great childhood and i mean that already got my attention it's like oh okay um he had a great childhood and he put some of that down to the fact that he said his parents gave him love and leeway in equal measure and i just thought oh oh my God, that's it.

20:46You know, like that thing about knowing when to care for them and when to let them make their own mistakes and, you know, like grow and be free and when to step in and when to step back. I mean, that's like the hardest thing. Oh, it's so hard. It's so nice to know that at least someone got it right, you know. So there's like hope that we might do as well. But it is, you know, it is a massive thing. And I think one of the things that really surprised me about the letters that came in for the book was that if I'm honest I was I was a little bit worried that a load of the letters would be kind of long list of don't do this and don't do that you know because we're so used to talking about boys as like a problem to be fixed yes you know they all need reigning in we've got to stop them doing this we've got to stop them doing that you know like there's something wrong with them and actually it's the total opposite the letters were so incredibly loving and encouraging and positive it just blew me away I really it's just so lovely to see that actually these are positive encouraging messages to give to boys rather than the usual kind of negative messages that we hear about boys and I think that's what's so special about this book well what you've done is with a sort of total stroke of genius you've given men permission to have this chat because like you say in the book I can't remember which one of you put this in in one of your pieces but this is the sort of thing we say for like weddings you know these are the moments where we go oh now I can say yeah the bit about myself yeah why are we waiting for that why are we not doing this at any given opportunity and I think especially for men in a cliched way it is harder to speak your feelings to say I love you I'm sorry or can I impart this advice to you And you've just given everyone permission.

22:32I actually, after reading this, and I read it crying, laughing. I had every emotion possible reading these beautiful letters. But I thought, I'm not a dad, obviously, but I thought, I'm going to write my 13-year-old a letter. It inspired you to do that. I did it. And I sat and I did it. And I was surprised at what came out. I didn't know what was going to come out. And I felt deeply emotional in moments of it. And that's the thing. That's the thing. because with our kid, with our Nathan, and I'm with my bezzy mate Leon, they were taking ages to write the letter. And I think I must have phoned them and I said, look lads, you've got three days to get this letter sorted.

23:11Do you know what I mean? I want it in the book. Do you want to be in the book? You've got three days. And they were like, oh, okay. And so they said when they sat down, when they actually went, okay, let's do it, it just came to them. Do you know what I mean? And it just flooded out. And if you think about it, to sit down and really be in that mindful state of thinking solely about that individual it's a meditative practice really you know what i mean it is sit and think and feel the emotions and have the opportunity some some of us might be able to talk face to face but to have that opportunity to write down your feelings just solely thinking of that person it just flows out and then the two of them wrote beautiful letters and their fears of beginning to put that pen down were huge yeah because you're scared to feel it all yeah like this is going to be overwhelming like that's what i felt i was a bit nervous like what the fuck is going to come up you know what is what's going to come out of me but and it's not going to be perfect there's no such thing as perfection no perfection can never be obtained no do you know what i mean so it's that it's the process of actually sitting down, taking that first step and going, okay, let's just see what comes out.

24:22Yeah. But also I suppose like what's really lovely, I mean I think you've said letter writing is a softer way of saying difficult things and I really like that. I just think that's absolutely perfect. But it's also a softer way of receiving difficult things, you know, like because again, with my son, God love him, if I try and say important things to him, do you know what I mean the last time I tried I actually ended up showing him yeah yeah he wasn't paying attention and it's like hello you know like I've got this major thing I've like it's really important and um so we actually ended up having a row and it's like piss off then you know like so actually there's something really lovely about the fact that they'll have this thing and even if they're not receptive to it at the time they can keep it and yeah that's for another the time and maybe even look at it when you're not looking well exactly well he's not read the letter yet but I said look it's in my notepad my notepad's always on the kitchen counter I was like whenever you want to go look at it he went oh is it going to be really emotional and cringe and I was like we're going to move past that it's going to be okay yeah and just went like I'm not forcing you if you don't want to read it you don't have to but it's there exactly I think it it's you know we were brought up with a different generation of parenting which probably wasn't anywhere near as communicative as what we're aiming for and I think again we're not perfect parents we're learning on the job as well but I think we're definitely more aware that you know they were raised by like post-war kids or war kids so they're dealing with all these other emotions and and feelings and it was you know like we just don't talk I think that generation yeah I'm definitely trying to have more chats when we're like eating dinner or we're in the car on the way to school and that's always a good one yeah yeah not looking at them yeah that's always a good one or walking like you're just looking ahead exactly but it is there I think even though you know I'm a female there is still an awkwardness of we're not just talking about oh my god we've got to get you to football and we've got all the logistics of like having a a chat take time yeah to take the time to have a conversation yeah which sounds ridiculous but where's that time where's that opportunity we don't leave time for it we don't we don't leave time for it And it's the same with that, like what you were saying about with the letter, you're taking time to write it.

26:43So many of the things we write now, we chuck off text messages and emails like with barely. I barely bother to read them through. How many times you send a thing and realize like actually you've got something completely wrong because you just chucked it off. There's no thought at all. So there is something really magical about it forcing you to slow down and think, which is just so rare. Yeah, it is.

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29:00What was the most valuable bit of advice that was offered up in a letter to your actual son out of the people you chose? So remember, they were all writing to a 13-year-old. So they were talking a lot more about things like friendships rather than, say, relationships. Do you know what I mean? There was nobody talking about when you fall in love. And, you know, like it was all about choose your mates wisely and don't worry about being cool. Just, like, follow your interests. Lots of stuff about be kind. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, like I say, these were letters to a 13-year-old. So it was a different thing.

29:32And what's really lovely about the book is that some of these are dads with bright, shiny, brand new kids, you know. Jenny is little. Yeah. He's Ali. He's Ali. Oh, I love that letter. It's beautiful. And then the final chapter with the people with the grown up kids that have left home. I mean, some of those letters. Yeah, they're very moving. Absolutely really moved me. And of course, some of those sons have died. And, you know, like, yeah. And also the prison letters I found just heartbreaking. Beautiful. Amazing. And it was, you know, you've got letters going both ways. You've got sons in prison and you've also got dads in prison.

30:12Yes. And both were equally gut punches at times. I found them just devastating. And that was down to the great team behind it. They were amazing. We may be the names on the boot, but this is an absolute collective of people that have been involved from the very beginning. You know, Judy, Katie from Bloomsbury and all of the team, they were phenomenal. And we reached out right across the land. They really got it. They really understood the importance of having as wide a range of dads as possible. And, you know, they were going into prisons and libraries and community organizations, football grounds.

30:47Community centers don't exist anymore. No, but community organizations. Do you know what I mean? Community organizations. Community centers should come back. I agree. Because I think just being a kid who grew up in the Como, basically, you know, we had the Centre 63, which was phenomenal. And we had the boys club. So, you know, we played football. You had discos. You got to meet people. You got to be a present part of your community. We had Ryslip Youth Club. It was essential. No, and it was, wasn't it? Yeah. Because you felt a part. You had ownership of it. And it was brilliant. Yeah. You had your 10p for the space season and all that.

31:21You know what I mean? But as well, look, and going back to that point, why I do think they're integral and why I do feel it's something that we should really bring back in this country. Because as well, as we're saying, you don't have to be a family member to be that role model or be that person that you can seek advice from. And there was a lot of people in, you know, where I grew up and stuff who maybe didn't have that relationship with their parents, but the youth workers. You could talk to a youth worker and they would give great advice because they always had your best interests at heart.

31:49Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And they were like another, they were older than us, but they had that wisdom, but they also understood on our level. Yeah, we've lost the physical space for kids to get together. A safe space. A safe space. And I think that is, and also this is married not only with losing that space, but with the fact that the online world is just only getting bigger and sort of scarier. And I may be sound doom and gloom and maybe old saying that, but it does scare me for the teenagers, especially, you know, like I said earlier, with my 13 year old, all I ever say to him is, have you seen anything disturbing?

32:27And if so, please come to me. Because you can't govern what they're watching the whole time. It's impossible to do it. And I think we're still as parents trying to work out what is the right way to do it. Because we don't know either. And that's the trouble. I just want to really briefly go back to it. Because one of the letters that talked about the issues that we've just been discussing around community centres and stuff is Goldie's letter to his son in prison. Which, if anyone out there hasn't yet read it, it's incredible. It's incredible. And he talks about a lot of things that are, I feel quite emotional.

33:05He talks about a lot of things, but one of them is precisely this stuff that we've shut down all the community centers and youth clubs and music projects and all those spaces that were so important. And he's got this amazing line because, of course, he's incredible. And he says something like, you know, with all the funding cuts, they rip the heart out of communities and then blame them for bleeding. and um i just think that's it exactly we need spaces where our young people can go to to connect to belong you know in the community to learn things to learn how to be a part and to negotiate with each other and all the rest of it and you know face to face see each other not not you know i'm not in some i don't even know what they are i can't even explain them to be on my my capacity to understand what goes on in them things, I have no idea.

33:54But that face-to-face interaction with different people. It's no substitution. And we're very quick to chastise the youth. Do you know what I mean? As a society, we are very quick to chastise the youth, but we're giving them no opportunities. We're giving them no place to learn skills about life. Do you know what I mean? And dreams and hopes and ambitions. Do you know what I mean? I remember, remember the farm. Yeah. The band, the farm. The farm came to play. Do you know what I mean? they must have been in about their fourth or fifth gig. And we were like, what's going on here today? We've got a band coming in and we're like, what?

34:28And then he's coming, he set the drums, and we were kind of like playing 40 out the back and like, the band's going to start now, you're coming. And we all stood there. There was about 25 of us just in awe watching these fellas. And one of them might have inspired one of us to pick up a guitar. Well, you still remember it, which means it's had an impact. Vividly, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And how many John Lennons are sat in bedrooms as well? That's what I always think. But these were places where you could go and you could feel a part of that community and you learn a lot of things from there. You know, and this is something I remember.

35:01Because as well, it was places where you could talk about stuff that you mightn't talk about at all. Yeah. And we were talking about kind of sex and stuff like that. Do you know what I mean? And I remember one of the fellas went, you know, the three Cs. And we were like, what? He was like, what do you mean? He went, well, this is the way to look at it. And he was an older man. do you know what I mean in his mid-20s and I stuck it registered in my head and it was like consent compassion condom wow very simple I really didn't know where that was gonna go at all no I was thinking should I know the three c's I know shit no but when you when you think about it you don't have to have a big massive conversation about it but if you know when you understand the process of that what consent absolutely without fail do you know what I mean yeah it's it's make Oh, I love that.

35:46This is an experience you share together. And even at that age of like 15, do you know what I mean? You're like kind of, oh, right. And then maybe none of us, maybe only three of us knew what consent meant, but then we looked it up. And I remember, you know, we looked it up in the dictionary because we were from, you know, it's like, oh, all right. Okay. So you understand that. Compassion. That's massive. It's huge. Yeah. And obviously, you know, a condom for safety. That's incredible. So it's so simply put. Yeah, not incredible. But I think it says so much about what that is. And you don't have to have deep, deep, deep, deep, deep conversations about it.

36:21But those three C's, you know, it's integral. But also that's so much better coming from like. Yes. Not your dad. Not your dad. Yeah, not your dad. Yeah. Without a doubt. It cuts out all the awkwardness. You just go, yeah, got it. Thank you very much. Absolutely. Yeah. And you take it away and it registers in your mind. Do you know what I mean? Like you say, you know, we blame the youth for a lot without giving them the support. But I think we also do the same to men. sometimes rightly so but other times we are just like oh my god toxic masculinity men are lost what do we do and without going right we the society like the culture needs to change society needs to shift for young men to feel like they can communicate they can show emotion they can be completely themselves without having to toughen up man up all the stuff that men have been thrown for years and years i think adolescence has had a huge ripple effect more than you could have ever dreamed it's like that is a cultural shift clearly loads more needs to be done systemically in terms of these things to hold up but it's had a ginormous impact what do you think needs to be done for that to have lasting appeal and I'm not putting the whole emphasis on adolescence but in terms of the the cultural shift that we're we're feeling communication I think that is the key do you know what I mean look as artists we we made something that we put out there we weren't trying to change anything we weren't trying to do anything specific we just wanted to raise awareness and bring attention to this thing that was happening at the time and to have a proper look at it and ultimately it was about opening those bedroom doors and creating the beginnings of a dialogue between our sons and our daughters and and the youth in general do you know what I mean and we had no idea what was going to happen with it we just didn't we knew we were part of something special because of the process that we were doing and and the joy that we felt when we were on set it's the most exhilarating experience it's the most zen i've ever been as an actor because you're in one take because you're in one take so you're marrying both of those mediums you know what i mean you had ashley on here and he just said he would fall apart and shit himself every night.

38:30Oh. Yeah, and I remember, I remember Ash was like, I went into his train and he's like, and I was like, it's going to be all right, don't worry. And he's like, and he's looking at his lines and I'm like, Ash, once we're going, we're going. That's it. Once the train starts, we'll be sweet. It was magic. Love it. Pure magic. And it was, you know, there's a lot of rehearsal process that goes into that. You know, the camera work is phenomenal and the whole crew, we were a well-oiled machine and that allows you to be free and play. But we always came from it from the perspective of to be true to what we were saying.

39:00Treat it with love. Treat it with care. And, you know, treat it with the dignity that it deserved, the story that we were telling. And we had no idea what would happen. And you know yourself, look, as an artist, you put something out there and you go, okay, that's it. And then whatever people choose to take from it, that's their prerogative. And we shouldn't say, we want you to do this. Because it was never about that. It was just a simple conversation at the very beginning. Myself and Hannah and Jack at one point had a really lovely conversation it was about so this isn't a whodunny this is a why did he do it yeah and then it's open to you to put your own thoughts and your own feelings and take away from it what you choose you know i mean we never knew it had catch the zeitgeist the way it did yeah well it was needed i think there was a conversation that none of us were really having and a lot of fear around that conversation which you again like gave everyone permission like let's talk about this stuff let's put this out in the open.

39:56Well, Fern, look, if I'm really honest, I just remember when I read an article and I read that, you know, a young girl had been stabbed to death in Liverpool. And there was three boys that were arrested and she was 13 or 14 and they were like 13, 14 as well. And a similar age. And I just thought, wow. I'm going, what's going on? I think it was just before Christmas in the city centre. I just thought, oh, it hit my heart. Do you know what I mean? If I'm honest, I just thought, have we got to this point where a young lad thinks that this is okay or an even possibility where does that come from so it was about looking at it from that perspective do you know what i mean yeah yeah well you did it like the execution of it was absolutely exceptional and again that was a team game you know that was a we ting there's no there's no eye in these things the same as with the book it's not it's not about one individual it's a collective i mean from your deep dive into that topic and also with your background, Orly, do you think young men are lost?

40:58There are a couple of dads and I wrote down a couple of the references. There's one dad who says he looks at social media in the news and it suggests almost exclusively that young men are lost, frightening and dangerous. Oof. I mean, I think there's definitely stuff in the official statistics that is worrying. You know, Stephen's already talked about the suicide rates. There is stuff around mental health and addiction and the number of young guys who like nothing to do all day you know that don't have jobs that aren't in training or college or whatever so there's definitely some worrying stuff and I think lots of people have got a sense of you know that a lot of young men are struggling they're struggling in all sorts of different ways and in need of guidance and I think you know when we have to try and understand the appeal of some of this some of these influences that maybe some of that appeal is because actually they've got a clear message and they've got like a clear thing to aim for.

41:55They paint a very vivid picture of the cars and the whatever's and the, you know, here's something to aim for and here's how you're going to get it. It's all very clear. And we don't have a clear message for boys at all. I think maybe we've been better at having a clear, positive message for girls around empowerment, you know? And rightly so. Yeah, and rightly so. And I mean, I think that's the other thing. There shouldn't be either or. No, no, it could be and, of course. and exactly I hate this idea of like as if boys and girls are on some sort of giant seesaw and if one goes up the other has to go down you know like it's nonsense it's nonsense but but yeah maybe we've we've been quite good at having a clear positive message for girls but we just don't have one for boys I don't think you know my partner works in a secondary school and he talks about you know corridors with brilliant pictures of amazing women on them and it's like aspire to do this and then there isn't any kind of equivalent for boys you know and so I think we need to kind of figure that out and it would be just incredible if the book could be part of starting that conversation yeah yeah I think also just like the simple act of having a dad write to his son yeah that is so powerful like that is such a powerful thing in itself to say all the things that you know you walk around with all of this stuff in your head as a parent yeah without any where to put it and it's not offloading onto your kid I think it's the it's the the wisdom you want to impart the lessons that you've learned the love that you have for them that you might not be expressing that often I think you know like I love my dad to bits but he's not good at saying I love you and it's that it's a generational thing it's just it's not an easy thing to utter those words and I feel it and I know he does but it's not you know I say it about a hundred times I say to To everyone, the person who's given me a coffee, love you, like anyone.

43:42I'm constantly expressing it. There is a block there.

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45:41When we look at the advice part of it, and there is some beautiful segments of advice imparted in this book, when you were growing up, Stephen, what would you have needed to hear back then? When, say, you were 13, you're on the cusp of adolescence yourself, and you've got your whole life ahead of you, what would you have loved to have heard? you know honestly i think i got everything that i needed to hear do you know what i mean i do um and that's why my relationship is very different my relationship with pops was very different um you know it took him a while and he was finding his feet within the context of our relationship and you know there was moments where i pushed back um but but my relationship with him and his guidance was was really beautiful do you know what i mean And my mum, my mum, you know, me and my, it was times, it was just when I was very young, it was me and my mum taking on the world to an extent, you know what I mean?

46:39And so I was always encouraged. And my mum, the best bit of advice my mum ever gave me was that you're never above anyone and you're never beneath anyone. We are all equal. My mum was a, you know, my mum was a social worker. She started off as a nursery nurse and she worked her way up the ranks. um and at the end of it she you know you know she had papers published and stuff like that so my mom was yeah my mom was a little ah she she was wonderful she was a powerhouse um but i had that relationship with mom and it was you know when i suffered my own kind of stuff as well i don't i felt there was that kind of sense in me of feeling like i'd let them down in a way um and i think i kind of took a lot on my own of feeling like i would let the people around me down and I just wish, well, I don't wish because I don't regret anything that's happened in my life.

47:30Do you know what I mean? Because if it hadn't, I wouldn't be sat across from you two here with you two wonderful people now talking about this beautiful thing. So I'm grateful for everything that's happened. Do you know what I mean? The ups and the downs, the hardship, the pain, the ecstasy and the happiness that I've managed to walk on this path. But my pops gives great advice. He does and he, you know, he still... And great hugs. And great hugs. But I was the original. You're the hugger. I'm the original. But he does, you know, and my ma used to say I crack a rib the way I squeeze her. Do you know what I mean?

48:05Because if I love you, I want you to know I love you. Because I mean it. But in the sense of that kind of positive role models as well. Me and Alfie train together. Do you know what I mean? I think there's really excellent qualities to masculinity as well. Do you know what I mean? When we harness them in the right way. Yeah. And that kind of, I mean, I'll open the door for Hannah in a car. If I'm with Izzy, do you know what I mean? Then I open the door. I'm a gentleman. I was trained. I was raised that way. The one thing that pisses me off is when you hold the door for someone and they just walk right past you.

48:37Doesn't that get under your skin? Yeah, it's the worst. I'm like, and I'll catch myself going. Manners are everything. Thank you, Finn. I'll catch myself going. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. That's all right. Yeah, I'll just stand here, shall I? You know, it's that. But for me as well, going back, you know, and I'm bringing it back to myself because that's my only place of reference. As a kid, you know, we lived in a flat and I used to clean my own room. Do you know what I mean? I'd oover up. I'm really great at washing so that's because I used to, that was my job, do the bathroom. But we put music on on a Sunday and we cleaned the house together.

49:10There's a group, the three of us. Do you know what I mean? So Alfie's seen that and Grace has seen that and me and Hannah have that. she might say I need to do a bit more than that. She's probably right. Do you know what I mean? But it's that being a team. You're a part of a team and it's not about, well, will you do that and I'll do this. It's not that. It's, you know, women, thankfully, are now in a place where they work a lot more than what they used to. You know, but we say it's a generational thing. The likes of my auntie Vera who started off and working and my uncle Eddie would go to work and he'd have to travel to Liverpool and he'd do a full week's work in Liverpool.

49:45Do you know what I mean? and she'd be there taking care of the house and stuff. But things have changed. So it's much more of a partnership now. And I think we need to empower our young men to take responsibility for those things as well. Do you know what I mean? And see that it is a partnership, that you are in this together. Yeah. And we are a part of a team. And maybe that's a possible way in for that understanding of the camaraderie of us. We're all in this together. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? We're all brand new at this. We're all just learning. Oh my God. the same pace as each other we're all giving it our best shot I definitely feel passionate about that with my 13 year old that if we want to see women go out and thrive at work have careers dare I say like I'm the first woman in my lineage that's had a career you know my mum had about four jobs and she hated all of them and my nans didn't work I feel lucky but I also feel the pressure of oh but I've still got to be on the class what's happened the school gates and you've still got to show up as this fully formed mother so we need to raise our boys to go if we want women to do that and to be brilliant it has to be a team like you're saying you wrote a letter to your son in the book what did it what felt important to get across in that letter i tell my alfie i love him every day my my lord call me a soppy twat excuse my language i'll cry the drop of a hat you know what i mean and i adore our alfie i adore our grace as well i'm blessed that you know a lot of people will say I'm in a codependent relationship with Hannah, but that's okay.

51:16But your wife is amazing. She is. She's something else. I've landed on my feet there, haven't I? She is something else. She's phenomenal. She's unreal. Now, she's running that whole production company, just there in our little mayor. I'm in awe of your wife. Oh, thank you. I am. I am as well, if I'm honest. I bet you are. I absolutely am. How can you not be? And she's wonderful, do you know what I mean? But it's a team game. Yeah. And I've said this before, you know, she sacrificed a lot for me to be able to pursue my career. She really did. She put her career on hold for that. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

51:49You know, she believed that it would happen at some point. And that's the other thing, my friends and my family, you know, when I had my own doubts about this, and I was going to pack it in after this is England. I was going to stop because I couldn't get no work. And I was going to become a youth worker. Do you know what I mean? that's what I was doing because I was helping out in our community centre making films and stuff like that when we lived in Ibstach making little videos and films getting the kids to write their own scripts act in them do the costume do the camera and it was wonderful and I did it for about four months and it was beautiful it was really amazing and I loved it and I was like I might just do this now and everyone was like no don't stop don't stop don't give up and thankfully I listened to them but I was going to go for an interview and then all of a sudden an audition popped up so it was one of them sliding doors moments and I went for the audition and thankfully I got it but it's that support around you do you know what I mean you need that yeah you need that support what do we do again this is mentioned in several of the letters I kept jotting things down that there were different patterns that you could see whether the the son was a baby a adolescence or a grown man that when we go on social media, put on the news, we look out into the big wide world, a lot of the horror stories we see are catalyzed by a man.

53:13So whether it's burglaries, murders, rape, war, it's men. And we know that statistically. And it is quite terrifying sending young men out into a world like that and really scary sending young women. I still feel like if I would not walk around the streets of London at night on my own and I'm not waiting for a woman to jump out at me do you know what I mean it's there is that fear in built in us as women but my worry is with a 13 year old boy how am I sending a young boy out into the world knowing that this this is what we're used to like this is the this is the system but it doesn't have to be like that how do you feel about that as a mother of a teenager I don't think there's a parent that doesn't kind of worry about these things and I think is about kind of how we can bring our boys up to be boys in all the different things that means, you know, while also just being decent human beings.

54:08You know, that's all that it is at the end of the day. You know, one of the things that was really lovely about the book was that we had all these letters from like dads from all walks of life in all different situations with all different relationships with their sons, you know, good and bad, difficult and lovely. And, you know, from yeah from all these different places and yet basically all of them everyone wants their kid to be just a decent human being yeah that's loving and loved and happy in whatever way they want to be but they're just basically a good guy and and that's such a fundamental kind of universal thing and it's got to give you hope that if that's genuinely what we all want yes you know then it's sure easy to focus in on the bad news but you know as the goddess catelyn would tell us the news is biased towards telling us the bad bits there's actually everybody wants their kids to be a decent human being and and if that's the case then surely surely things are basically going to be all right i think you're so right because like we were saying before we started this pod we were talking about catelyn moran we're both obsessed with her and that we often well it's not just that we're choosing to focus on it we are shoved the news daily that these awful things are happening yeah but then there's absolute proof in these letters here and from people that have had really difficult situations to navigate there is so much goodwill and hope for young men yeah and that it's so important that we remain focused on that rather than all the bad shit happening i think if we were to say like what are the key themes that come out of the book you know one of them is definitely about love like the amount of the outpouring of love is incredible and the other thing actually is hope yeah so there were lots of people so there you go there were lots of people talking about some like you say some really painful experiences and also some big mistakes like some big mistakes they've made with deep regrets you know are messed up loads of men are messed up you know or um lots of men talking about addictions you know addiction is such a huge problem whether it's drugs alcohol screen porn work you know loads and loads of different types of addiction gambling um but time and time again there were stories of the men that had come through that had found a way through like one of my favorite letters if you don't mind me say one of my favorite letters it's just the sweetest thing where this guy talks about he lost his own dad when he was 22 to alcoholism and following that he kind of went off the rails a bit and got lost and alcohol himself and he says he was actually trying to feel connected with his dad he was copying his dad's behavior as a way of feeling close to him you know heartbreaking stuff and when he became a dad himself he realized he's got to knock this on the head and of course it's not easy but he finally realized he cracked it one day when it was it was like one morning and he'd pulled up his pajama leg to scratch his knee and he looked over at his young son and he'd pulled up his pyjama leg and he was scratching his knee and he was like i've done it i've given him new things to copy you know like broken exactly he's broke that spiritual malady he's broke that exactly but that's what these letters i think have got the potential to do is break yes family cycles yeah and these family cycles can go on for generations for like hundreds of years generational trauma yeah yeah and this is the chance i think the first step obviously is the awareness and then the next bit is communicating it and it's not going to fix everything immediately but without that, nothing will change.

57:44Awareness is wonderful and intent is beautiful. Without action, they are both fuck all. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Hopefully, this will help with awareness as well because I think there's something about reading other people's letters that makes you, it clicks. It's like, oh shit, okay, yeah. Now I know what I need to say. That wonderful question you asked a bit ago about females feeling threatened than being scared. Have you ever seen, we watched it the other night, have you ever seen Colum from Accounts? Oh, I love that. I love that. Did you watch the last series? I haven't watched the, no, not the new series.

58:17Okay, well watch this new series and everything you've just asked in that question is delivered in the most amazing scene. It's one scene, it's one shot, the two of them sat opposite a table and it is phenomenal. Oh, I can't wait. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal and it makes you just go, because you're laughing and then you go, wow, me and Anna I just went and we took a minute and it was like, because I'd never looked at it properly from that perspective. Oh, wow. But then I saw, you know, you have your fears and your thoughts and I understand that. I know where it is. You know, I'm not blind.

58:51I know that that is what is out there. And I think personally, I've never tried to fill my grace with that fear. Do you know what I mean? Because yeah, you're worried when she's out. Of course you are. Do you know what I mean? Because of everything you just said. But you never try to push it upon hair or make hair a friend. No, no. And I always made, you know, from a young age, now maybe people may say this is wrong, but from a young age, I've always wanted our grace to throw a great right hook, just in case. Yeah. I teach it, shins, kicking the shins, kicking the balls. I've started boxing. It's brilliant.

59:27But it's fantastic and it's great for aggression, but it's also... You want some self-defense. Well, exactly. And the fact that we're having to have that conversation shows where we are as a society and shows what it is. But sure, you know, and things have to change. I get that. But I've always wanted her to be able to just at least do something. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And there's this one scene in column from accounts in that last series. And I promise you, when you watch that, when you watch that episode and you watch that scene, let me know what you thought. I'm watching it tonight.

59:55I'm doing it. It's unbelievable. And it deals with everything you've just said, the severity of what you've just said and the gravity of that. It deals with it in one scene. Wow. It's amazing. I'm on it but to go back to that look all we're trying to do is you know and again I'm not I'm not this is not any political thing this is nothing in that respect it's about fucking love it's about love it's about love it's seeping out of the pages of this book yeah it's about love and surely that's what we all have within our hearts do you know what I mean yeah surely that's that's the way to go yeah it's the it's the inability to tune into that I think that causes all of these male issues that are going on is, you know, men that feel unloved or men that feel like they can't access that part of themselves.

1:00:42That's it. Like you say, that's the missing link. And it is, it's so apparent in these letters. And it's honestly one of the most powerful things I've read in a very long time. I've read it in one go. I was like, one more letter. It's just, it's so moving. And also just the fact that I instantly felt compelled to write a letter. I think so many people are going to go and do it. So the objective has been completed. Oh, you've nailed it. That was it. Our overall super objective was to try and get people to read it, be inspired and write their own letters. It's a beautiful project. So congrats massively to both of you.

1:01:15Before we end, I'd love to ask you both two questions. One is music-based and I have an idea of where you're going to go with this one. We are making a Happy Place playlist. So we need a song that makes you feel bloody brilliant. What are we going to go with? well the one my current thing and it has got the word sun in it but the different spelling sun is morning sun by al barry oh no no you're gonna it's a gift it's a gift you're gonna love it i was i was playing it this morning morning sun it's a reggae song it's the most amazing uplifting gorgeous thing okay that's what we need sunshine song yes it's definitely a sunshine song like that gorgeous what about you Stephen mine's going to be with the kids in the car when they were very young but they know every single word express yourself that's such a great song it's a great song so good yeah I just listened to you on Ramesh's podcast so I was like we're going to get a hip-hop classic here guys I know it but you were right I heard you rapping I'll give you a hip-hop classic it's so good and lastly where is your happy place ooh

1:02:31there that's my happy place I like that it's a place of mental peace what's in your heart I was told it's on there it's the gap between the breath I like that I like that we've never had one so deep Stephen I know I don't feel like I can follow that one Yeah, literally, I live in Brighton, you know. I am one of those middle-aged women that does like... Exactly. It's took a lot of time, but it is there. Yeah. I love that. That's what we're all aiming for, is that, isn't it? The simplicity of that. I know. Orly, would you like to, even if it is a place? Well, I mean, yeah, no, I was genuinely going to say like getting in the sea down in Brighton.

1:03:16Oh, I love getting in the sea. Oh, all year round. Yes. It's a beautiful thing. Especially the winter. Especially the winter because it's all quiet. The sea's wild. It's freezing. You can feel alive. You feel brave. You feel like you feel everything. You feel animal. You feel spiritual. You feel like you don't feel your toes. Can't for hours. Yeah. Gorgeous. There's no beat in it. Well, thank you both so much, Stephen, Orly. It's a beautiful project. I loved reading it. And thank you for being on Happy Place. Thank you very much for that. Thank you very much. That was so interesting, having Stephen and Ollie together for that.

1:03:58Just awesome chat. I loved it. That's a conversation that will stay with me in my heart forever. But also there were just bits that like the three C's. I'm taking that away with me. There are conversations that I still know I need to have with both my kids, but my teenage son specifically at the moment. And I think that Stephen offered some really brilliant ways to do it. The three C's is one of them. three great words that we all need to say to our sons so I just found that deeply helpful and also as I said the book to me was a real catalyst to write a letter to my son he still hasn't read it but we'll get him there somehow but even just the process of writing it was really helpful for me and quite cathartic actually and revealing that always happens doesn't it when you put pen to paper that the truth sort of emerges somehow.

1:04:47So I would definitely urge you to. And I've also been thinking, having listened to Orly speak, that wouldn't it be interesting for me to ask some really cool men in my life to write letters to my son Rex. I think that could be really interesting and a lovely, a lovely thing for him to read over at some point. So it's definitely got me thinking and I'm sure it has you in many ways too. I'd love to know on social media if that's made you want to write a letter or maybe you have already or maybe you're thinking of doing exactly what Orly did getting men to write letters to your sons we really want to hear about it so do let us know.

1:05:25Letters to Our Sons is out now go read it it's so beautiful and also do keep an eye on our podcast feed because there's another episode live from the Happy Place Festival heading your way in just a few days but in the meantime I want to say a Massive thanks again to Stephen and to Orly and to you. You're all bloody gorgeous.

1:06:09Thank you.