Tan France

0:00Before we start, this episode includes some conversations that might be difficult to hear. So do read the show notes if you'd like more details. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that helps us better understand experiences that aren't our own. Today, I'm meeting Tan France. The idea of success and what that means to us, especially in the West, you just think, well, I can't give all this up because this is what we all work towards. We all work to money and freedom. And then when I got out of it all, I realised, gosh, that wasn't success. Yes, I could pay my bills and I had money, but that wasn't the thing that was going to make me feel successful.

0:48Success was being able to sleep at night, not thinking I've got to do this, this, this, this, this. This is a problem, that's a problem, how do I solve this? Just being able to go sleep at night and actually being able to sleep. Tan burst onto our screens as one-fifth of the Fab Five on Netflix's Queer Eye in 2018. He captured all of our hearts as he showed what a transformative effect clothes can have on our confidence and sense of self. Now he's sharing his gorgeous warmth and wardrobe advice with Brides To Be on a new revamped series of Say Yes To The Dress UK. Before his TV work, Tan had been a successful fashion designer behind the scenes, But his life hasn't all been glitz and glamour.

1:34In fact, in his best-selling memoir, Naturally Tan, he talked about how it was often the pressures of outward success that led to some of his darkest moments. I was really taken with Tan's honesty in this chat. He was so willing to share some really profound experiences and was also hilariously candid about some of his opinions too. He was absolutely the compassionate soul that we see on TV. So I really hope you enjoy getting to know him even better. Right, let's do this then. Here's the show.

2:32Tan, how are you? I'm really well. You look gorge. I just spent an unnecessary amount of time working out what shirt to wear for this because I was like, I can't wear a bad shirt for Tan. I was thinking, is Tan going to judge me? Is Tan going to judge this shirt? No. Here's the thing. Okay. Almost every time I meet with somebody, they tell me that they were nervous about what they were wearing. I'm never ever concerned about what somebody else is wearing. I'm only ever thinking, am I wearing the right thing? That's literally all I... I barely noticed anyone's got a head. Like, that's how not aware I am.

3:07All I'm thinking is, gosh, I hope this was right. Oh, well, your top is absolutely resplendent. It is divine. But I was, yeah, I was assuming that it'd be the first thing you'd do is go, quick body scan, what's she wearing? Never. How do I see her personality through the lens of this shirt? Okay, maybe for people I help on Queer Eye, yes. But not a style icon like you. Oh, God. Okay, I'll take it. I'll take the icon. Thank you. I'm so excited to talk to you today. I take it we are speaking to you live from Salt Lake City. You are. You are in my bedroom right now. That's your actual bedroom. It's so chic, obviously.

3:47That was never something that needed to be wondered. um you from reading your autobiography salt lake city seemed to very much be your happy place it's somewhere that you almost instantly fell in love with yeah you know i i was searching for somewhere i you know i've listened to podcasts many times so i know i'm allowed to go deep so i'm going to and i also talk a lot sorry about that i was looking for somewhere for quite some time and i didn't i wasn't doing it purposefully i guess but i knew i wanted to just be happier in life and so when I was about 21 22 I started coming to Salt Lake regularly I discovered it when I was 21 it was probably here beforehand I wasn't acting like Columbus thinking I discovered this um but I I fell in love with it immediately and for so many reasons have you ever been Salt Lake just out of interest no okay um Salt Lake at some point just google it please Fern because it's so beautiful and it is the reason, the immediate reason why I fell in love was because it was so stunning, like visually stunning.

4:48But then the people were really nice and it did make me happy every day, continues to. It's been now 19 years that I've been coming. I've lived here full-time for 15, but I've been here for 19 years and it's my favourite place. Oh, that's so wonderful because it's so strange that some people do feel very geographically tied to, I guess, where they're born. but actually we have got free reign to kind of wander and see what feels right to us and I love that you found your place I was talking to my niece a few days ago my shockingly my nieces are now very much grown which is so upsetting to see but my eldest is 26 and I was talking to her because she's about to study I think a PhD or master's I don't pay enough attention anyway she's about to go to a different university and I was like go somewhere far away like just experience into the world and she's from South Yorkshire and she was like I think I'm going to stick with South Yorkshire we've got everything we need here and it hurt my heart so much thinking yes I know we were born and raised there but there's so much more to the world yeah it's so fun having an explorer if you can you know I didn't get to do that whole gap year thing because I started work at 15 so I missed out on so much stuff but me and my husband always say one day when the kids are kind of independent doing their thing we're having a gap year same no I don't want a gap year I want I got five years.

6:07Like I want a solid five. We had COVID as an opportunity to potentially do stuff because I didn't have children at that time and I wasn't working at that time. But obviously we couldn't go anywhere. However, that would have been the perfect time to travel the world. I know. It's so would have. So let's talk about your setup now because you've just welcomed a second baby, Isaac, into the world. I'm so happy for you. How is little Isaac? Really, do you know what? Really well. I'm going to be honest. And I've told myself I'm going to stop lying in interviews because I really, I pride myself on being authentic.

6:43And I want people to believe what I say. And if I'm constantly saying, I love it, it's a dream. It's ball kind of a lot of the time. And so I've got a toddler and I've got a four week old. My toddler is at a point which is the best I've ever experienced. The last six, seven months have been a freaking dream. I'm obsessed with life with my toddler Yeah there's like 5 to 10 minutes of the day Where he's a fucking nightmare But it doesn't matter because the rest of the day he's amazing I think 5 to 10 minutes is pretty good going Yeah yeah yeah that's amazing But those 5 to 10 minutes you're like The world's about to end Like it's brutal And it's usually public I'd love for you to not do this in public And then I had forgotten By the time my second one was born Just how rough those first few months are I kept telling myself, oh, it's going to be so easy.

7:35They sleep most of the day. They do. But when they're not sleeping, it's really intense. And so it quite honestly, it's been a really hard month. But yeah, I'm so glad we have a second one. We never wanted a second one for us. We had a second for our first son. And I'm glad we did. But I never want any more. That's surprising because in your autobiography, you say you want loads of kids. This has changed the tune. I wanted six. I really wanted six I know and then I thought okay I'll settle for four and then when we had the first one I was like one feels really nice to me like it feels like a really solid number and my husband was like we can't just have one and so yeah two's two's a month I think because I had so many nieces and nephews and I helped with all of them I was stupid enough to think I know what that's like when it's your own especially at night it's it's dark man I know It's the night time.

8:32It's meant to be a happy place. It's meant to be a happy podcast, but the night times are dark. No, we are very much light and shade on this show. We like to really delve into all corners of just general well-being. And I think people aren't honest enough about that first bit. It's really rough and you feel like you're losing your mind. You're so sleep deprived and your whole life is turned upside down in the best way. But it comes with a lot of challenges. and I don't think people talk about that nearly enough. It is so full on. And I was speaking to a friend who is, I'm sure I can say this, Anthony Frosky, who's one of my best friends, who's also my castmate on Queer Eye.

9:12And him and his partner are engaged. They're getting married soon. I love them so much. And I love Anthony so much. And he's very excited about the fact that I've got kids. And he was like, we are looking at potentially having kids one day. We don't have kids one day. And for the first time I wrote a couple of weeks ago, I said, if you don't desperately want them, don't have them. Because you've got to be desperately obsessed with having children. And the reason why you had them, you shouldn't just do it on a whim because it's not that. It ain't that. It's not a puppy. No, it's really, really not.

9:44And I think, you know, as much as certain parts of parenting do get easier as they get older, it is still relentless. I mean, you might have just broken up for the summer holiday. So I'm like, oh, my God, I've got to entertain them for seven weeks. What the hell am I going to do whilst also working? And, you know, it's just it's the juggle and it is relentless. And I think it's really healthy to have properly honest conversations about the beauty of it, but also the insane challenges of doing it. I mean, talking about newborns, I remember thinking back in the day when some of my friends had kids before me and I thought, what do people with newborn babies do all day?

10:21Like they just don't do anything. And then I had one and was like, it is relentless feeding, relentless burping, napping, nonstop. So this one, obviously all babies are different, but this one, Isaac, he is going through what we call a cluster feeding phase. Oh, yeah. Which not all babies go through. Our first one didn't. And they say it lasts about three to four months, which means from sunrise to sunset, we are feeding, burping and changing that child. There's literally no break. it's shocking I can't believe how hard it's been I know my second baby did exactly that maybe it's a second baby thing my second baby she's nearly eight but she she was cluster feeding during the bit of time where I really wanted to make dinner and eat something and it would be like four hours of oh wow but it is it's a beautiful thing and I'm and I'm so glad that you're you have this gorgeous family life with its challenges as all families have but it's really beautiful and I saw You posted a picture just last week of you holding Isaac in this new build, a house that you're creating.

11:25Is that the house you're in now? This is a new house. So I got life changed so much. So I'm from a small town where we lived in a neighborhood that was quite deprived. And I never in a million years believed that one day I might be able to get to build my dream home. and the opportunity came up a couple of years ago where I found a plot of land in my favorite part in Salt Lake, downtown Salt Lake and this was always meant to be my dream home, the home that I have now. I used to walk this street for like seven or eight years, every now and then if I was feeling blue I'd walk the street and I'd say to my husband one day I'm going to work hard enough where I can buy us a home on this street, this home in particular.

12:10Then we got it and then we realized that because of Queer Eye, Queer Eye came out soon after. And because of Queer Eye, this wasn't a safe enough space. People are very sweet, but they leave presents on the front door. And I just think you're too close to my children. That freaks me out. So we decided this can't be our forever home. And so we found a plot of land and we're building our dream home. It's going to be ready in about two and a half months. And it's gorgeous. I can't believe it's my home. that view from the front door took my breath away. It's, I can't believe that that view is my view.

12:46I know. It's stunning, but it's so deserved. You've done so much work to get to this point. And reading your autobiography gave me insight into the whole chunk of life, you know, that I didn't know about. And I had no idea from seeing you on the TV that ending up on Queer Eye was an accident because you were ready to retire. You were like hanging up the gloves. I'm done. I need to just take a step back. You were a business owner at the time doing extremely well. I had no clue. Has that led you to perhaps maybe trust in life a little bit more and to think, actually, I'm not always in control here.

13:25I have to leave room for just random, spontaneous things. Oh, yeah. I was always type A thinking if I do X, Y, Z, this is going to be the outcome. And so this was the first time ever I felt like I lost all control and I still feel like I've lost all control. But that's OK at this point because I have my safety net. I think that's the privilege that comes along with a safety net. I up to the age of 32, just before I turned 33, I had my business as I knew that that's what my life was going to be. I didn't know how well they were going to do, but I knew that I was going to be a business owner and that's all I wanted to do.

14:01And then when I sold and I got offered Queer Eye, I really fought it thinking I've done what I said I was going to do. Now I'm going to have kids and I'm going to just be a stay at home parent. And that's my life. And then I got Queer Eye and I've never felt like I've worked harder. I've never felt like I'm less in control. I've never felt like people have more control over me than I ever wanted to give anyone. It's a very odd feeling, but it's also really liberating. But it's because if it all goes away, it doesn't matter because I already planned on my life. So this is just like a really happy bonus.

14:39And I think that that's a really unique position I'm in. My castmates, if I can give my castmates as an example, all of them wanted this. for years and years and years, over a decade, every one of them had auditioned to be able to be a part of this, what I consider one of the most exclusive clubs in the world. I didn't. And so if it all went away, it doesn't matter. I think that's why I can enjoy this more than most. Yes, without a doubt. I think this industry can really breed desperation. I've certainly been in the clutches of that where I've been like, I need the next job. What is it? And how will I get it?

15:18And actually when you, I mean, I couldn't give a toss about working on TV these days. I haven't worked on the telly for ages because it's just not where my heart is at the moment. And I think you're absolutely right. That does give you a certain freedom just to relax and enjoy it rather than, you know, back in the day, I would have been so tense in January waiting for the phone to call. Who's going to book me for the next telly thing? You just, that is just not a nice place to be in that headspace. And I see it happening all around me. and I really want to just baby shake the person and say, this isn't everything.

15:51Like you can have a life outside of this. And even whilst it's going on, you can have a life outside of this. I do still treat it as just my job. And I know to anyone else, my sister makes fun saying it's not just a job, but it is. I live in Salt Lake. Most of the time I'm in Salt Lake. That's just my job. I go away. I do my job. That's obviously a little weird compared to most people's jobs. But then I come home and I've just got a very boring life. Most people would see my life as completely boring and that's okay for me. Oh, it's great. I think it's jolly lovely. Who wants drama? I don't want any of that.

16:25I like boring, lovely normalcy. That's what I'm striving for every day. It's heavenly. So let's go back to prior to you getting this phone call asking you to audition and be part of this show. You were running several businesses. And again, from reading your book, you were in a pretty bleak place mentally at this time. You were overworking, working every second in the day that you possibly could. Where did that take you mentally? Anyone who's ever owned a business will understand this all too well. You know, I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted my own business because, quite frankly, I hated being told what to do by other people.

17:07I was not a good employee. and so I wanted to be in control of how my life went and how my day went but what I didn't realize is there's literally no there's no off switch at all and especially when things are going good don't get me wrong I'm not hankering for those days when things were not so great but the better things got the bigger things got the more responsibility I had the more employees I had to care for. And God, the stress was horrible, horrible. And we could have continued going on for years because things were good. And it's not very often that people stop when things are really good.

17:47I had to. I'm not the kind of person that ever felt depressed when I was younger. And I had some really dark days as a kid. My whole family had really dark days, but I could always see the light at the end of the tunnel. But for the first time ever, I had like six months to a year where I just thought, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this. Quite frankly, for the first time ever, I felt suicidal. And that scared the shit out of me. Because again, I've never felt feelings like that. I always was able to rationalize something and think, okay, there's a problem right now, but I'm going to do X, Y, Z, and we're going to get out of it.

18:27And it's not a big deal. but for the first time ever I just thought I can't see an end to this and if this keeps going well I'm going to work harder if it goes badly I'm effed and it's embarrassing and I might feel shame so there was no good outcome and so it really did come down to one week in particular where I just thought I'm gonna have to do it I'm gonna have to find a way to commit suicide and And thinking about it now is such a bizarre feeling because, well, I didn't ever talk about it, or I'd never talk about it so freely, because it was such a horrible feeling. And I don't like revisiting horrible feelings.

19:06I always just want to brush past and pretend it didn't exist. But for a week or so, I was actually, every day I drove home, I just thought, this is where I should do this. The easiest way. I'm not going to hurt anybody other than myself if I do it this way. and then it came to a head on one day where my husband knew that I was really really down but I don't think he ever realized just how bad it got and then I called him in the middle of the day because I had left work at lunchtime thinking I'm going to go on my way home and this is where I'm going to do it and I called him just before I was planning to do it saying I'm so sorry I love you so much I can't do this anymore and he was at work and he was crying so hard saying please just stay there.

19:52Don't get out of the car. I'm going to come get you and we're going to figure all this out. And up until that point, my husband wasn't really part of the business. He had helped within the first, within the business's infancy, but he hadn't really gotten involved as the business grew. And so I was able to shield him from all the stresses of the job. But for the first time, he was like, tell me literally everything. I want to know every hard point of this business. And we're going to come up with a solution today. You're not going to go back into work for the next few days. Your staff can figure things out and we're going to solve it.

20:25And we spoke for the rest of the day. I was constantly crying for a couple of days saying, I just, I don't know what to do. I don't see a solution other than ending it all because then no one can blame me and I won't feel shame. My employees can't be angry at me because you can't be angry at the dead. and then my husband was like what if we just gave it all up you always said you wanted to retire by 40 yes you're only 32 but let's just give it all up now we don't need any more money we don't need anything else you've done everything you said you wanted to do there's no shame in selling especially at this point and we can live the happy life we want to live and that was the most freeing thing ever.

21:12I thought that he would judge me, that everyone would judge me for wanting to stop. And it was really nice to know that the man I fell in love with was going to love me unconditionally. It's a hell of a lot to go through. And it's an awful place to find yourself in. And I think many people who have had suicidal thoughts will very much connect with what you're saying about that feeling of being trapped because you don't see any you don't see any options and the fear of outside judgment compounds that hugely the shame of it the really the shame of thinking yeah thinking how do I tell someone even like your closest person and my husband was and is my best friend and even him I couldn't tell I was drowning I couldn't tell him I was drowning and I'm also super close to my sister I call her every day still um and I couldn't tell her we've seen suicide in our extended family and we've always said we can't ever no matter how bad things get we just talk to each other we'll solve it but even though I knew that I couldn't I felt such shame it's it's amazing that you made that phone call it's so brilliant that Rob was able to compassionately be there for you on that level of course and I think it's really important to talk about life when you're seemingly at the top of your game without it meaning that you have to be euphorically happy because I think that myth still hugely exists that anyone who's nailing it in business you know entrepreneurial in sense of being an entrepreneur or an actor or a sports person, whatever it is, when you're top, top of your game, that that is meant to equal this feeling of completion.

23:08I'm now perfect. I'm complete. I'm untouchable. I'm happy. And actually so often it's the opposite because of the pressure, the responsibility, the external judgment that surrounds what you're doing. I think it's so important to be transparent about that. I think so much of it, Fern, is the idea of success and what that means to us, especially in the West, what success looks like. And so you just think, well, I can't give all this up because this is what we all work towards. We all work to money and freedom. And then when I got out of it all, I realized, gosh, that wasn't success. Yes, I could pay my bills and I had money, but it wasn't that that wasn't the thing that was going to make me feel successful.

23:55Success was being able to sleep at night, not thinking I've got to do this, this, this, this, this, this is a problem, that's a problem, how do I solve this? Just being able to go sleep at night and actually being able to sleep. Yeah, and then, you know, subsequently you had that time and that space, and then something new came in that allowed you to still work in fashion, but was unimaginable, I'm sure. You know, I, we all have those, I'm sure you also felt this way when we're kids, we're like, I, especially young kids, I want to be a famous pop star, we all want to be a famous pop star. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that I could have a place in that world, especially from the place I came from.

24:35My husband and I talk about it a lot. You know, before all of this, I just assumed that people in our world probably didn't feel as grateful as they should. They probably thought, well, I deserve to be here and it is what it is. and I never imagined what their life was like outside of their work but my husband and I talk about it quite a lot saying can you believe this can you believe that this happened to us like that's bananas do you understand how insane that is I know it's all you've ever known because you start you came up so young but as somebody that I still feel that though I still feel that yeah all the time I kind of love that I'm still completely in shock yes it just is I can't believe it even my family can't believe it they still think it's a joke I mean I'm sure mine probably do as well after all these years but I think it's really it's a it's a lovely quality to have and one that I really don't want to lose I still most days think how the hell did I end up doing this and talking to all the all of these incredible people and you know having exposure to all of these different voices and different perspectives on life I find it astonishing and I think the people that perhaps don't have that feeling turn out as assholes always always um you know just for the audience I want them to really understand this feeling of mine because I called my sister on the way to the gym this morning saying I'm talking to Fern today oh shut I'm not even kidding.

26:10You were on my screen since I was a kid at your 10 o 'clock slot on BBC Radio 1. I listened to it every fucking day. And so I was like, I can't, you know, here's what I will say. It is very weird. I don't do a lot of British press, but I'm now about to do a British show. So I'm doing more British press. It is so insane to me. And this feeling is heightened. That feeling that I was talking about just before this is heightened when I talk to people that were icons when I was just a viewer watching TV or listening to the radio. It's funny how time stops when you leave a country. I moved a long time ago.

26:46And so all of you guys that were the megastars when I left England are still that to me. I love that. And so, yeah, of course I called my sister today. I can't believe I've done this. This is making my day because I've spent my whole day telling everyone that will listen. I'm talking to Tana France later. So everyone's like, oh, it's going to be such a great episode. Honestly, but I know what you mean, because I certainly had that moment where, say when I started doing Children in Need and I got to work with Terry Wogan, because he was so present in those formative years, I was just like, this actual Terry Wogan.

27:22I never quite got over that. I think it is very interesting. And oh my God, I mean, you get to hobnob with all the greats now. It's unreal. Can I tell you something so lame that you're going to think is pathetic, but I need you to hear me out. Right, hear me. So, yes, listen, I'm so lucky that I get to go to events where the people blow my mind. However, we were doing our first press tour in the UK, maybe 2018-ish. And I asked to be on, oh my God, I've forgotten the show's name, but the Keith Lemon show where you and Tolly went. Oh, Celebrity Juice, yeah. I asked, I think it was 2018, it might be 2019.

28:01team i asked to do it specifically so i could meet you you weren't on the show i didn't know you weren't on the show anymore so it was just holly and mel b was the the team captain but i literally requested from netflix that's how excited i was i can't believe i wasn't there i was i'm gutted that i haven't met you in the flesh this zoom thing is not enough for me it's not enough jvn did your podcast and i was so jealous i called him i was like you bitch i can't believe you can't talk to me we actually spent a lot of time together because i ended up also comparing his book event the night before randomly and then I got to see him the next day at his hotel room I mean I've still got three of you to tick off the list so I will work through all of you hopefully at some point but I seriously need to get to Salt Lake City so we can like chat it out in the flesh let's talk about I'm coming I really need to come there um let's talk about your new UK show Say Yes to the Dress because this is super exciting and I don't know how you're fitting all of this in by the way this is you know you you're at one point wanting to retire you are so busy at the moment and we are so glad that you're doing this over in the UK.

29:05So say yes to the dress, such a beautiful concept. Picking my wedding dress was one of the greatest joys of my life, of my adult life. It's a huge responsibility, but a beautiful thing to be part of. Yeah. So here's the honest truth. Oh, I'm already enjoying this. PR people usually hate me because I can't, I've got verbal diarrhea. I can't not say what I want to say. So the producers contacted me maybe like a year and a half ago and said, would Tan France be interested in Say Yes to the Dress? And I was like, no, thanks. It's not for me. And the reason why I said no was very simple. There have been so many seasons of this show all over the world.

29:48There's an American version. There are multiple American versions. There are a British version all over. It makes no sense. What can I offer this? Whereas I was at that point, I was choosing jobs based on what can I actually add that would give the audience a different perspective. And so I said, no, it's never going to happen. And so they asked for a follow up call saying, what what would you make you want to do it? And I was like, I want to do say yes to the dress with 10 friends, not say yes to the dress. And if you want me, I this is how it will have to go. And if you can't do it that way, I have literally no interest.

30:22And that's what I mean about the power and the freedom when it comes to financial freedom, not being beholden to anyone. So not feeling the fear thinking, well, if I don't take the job, will I get another job offer? Who cares? And so I said, this is what I want to do. I want to sit at home as the audience and think, I didn't know what a Kenyan person, Nigerian person, Thai person, I didn't know what they might wear for their wedding, but I want to enjoy that process. And why wouldn't I be just as excited about that Indian girl getting her dress as I would be about a white girl getting her white dress?

31:01As long as it's cast well, it should be wildly entertaining for me. It doesn't matter really what the dress is at the end. and if I would personally wear it. And so I said, what I want to do is I want to, if you want me, this is what I want. I want every episode to feel diverse. I want the queers. I want people from different races. I want people from different cultures. If you want me, that's it. Otherwise, let's not have another call. And then a couple of weeks later, they said, okay, well, let's do this. And I'm so proud of it. You know, there's certain things that I do and I just think, yeah, that was nice.

31:35That's how I feel quite, okay, here's how, to be really honest. I think Queer Eye is a nice show. Is it something that really gets me going? No, not really anymore. I've done this for six years. We've done, gosh, eight seasons technically because we did a Japanese season. After the first couple, I'm like, OK, I want something fresh. I want something new. And I feel like this has me all over it. It's very clear that I was very active in the production of this show. And that makes me feel really proud. And I love the thought that people are just hopefully going to watch a show that they find entertaining, but they're going to learn so much about communities throughout the world that they never thought they'd experience.

32:13And that was my main reason for doing Queer Eye. I wanted people to just see Pakistanis and Muslims as just normal people like the rest of you. And I get to do a version of that and share even more stories on Say Yes. And that makes me so proud. I bet it does. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. I cannot wait to watch it. I really can't wait. I mean, just to see the different dresses that you've created, I'm absolutely excited about this. It's going to be gorgeous. Let's talk about marriage because you seem to have a very robust marriage. And reading again in your book, I was so interested to hear that on your wedding day, you and your husband, Rob, had a bit of a moment where you're like, we haven't even talked about marriage or what it means to be wed.

33:04Let's get stuck into this and see how we both feel about it. What was the conclusion of that chat on your wedding morning? So again, because we've now established, I can't not say what I'm thinking. I thought it was a perfectly appropriate day to tell him, if you don't want to get married, we shouldn't get married. And so we didn't, we're not romantic like a lot of people. I don't care about grand gestures. I don't want someone to get down one knee and give me a ring. None of that. I don't even need someone to propose to me. I just want people, someone to treat me kindly and love me every day.

33:36And I will do the same for that person in return. And so we had decided we want to get married. He was the only person I wanted to be with. And he said the same thing about me. And so we had planned the wedding. It was a very simple event. We were getting married in Islington town hall. And then it came to the wedding day and we really hadn't established what marriage looks like for me and what marriage looks like for him. And so as we were in bed, I said, I want you to understand that there's no such thing as divorce for me. We will work things out. And if there's anything that's upsetting you about me now, tell me now.

34:13Even though it's our wedding day, we will hash it out now. We don't get married until past lunchtime. We've got hours to figure out whatever you would like me to do differently. And I will do the same for you. But once we sign that paper, and it will be ever evolving, there will be things that come up. But divorce is not an option. We will figure it out. And you will have respect for me. And I'll have respect for you. And so we spent the next few hours talking about what we expect from marriage. And most of it was just talk honestly and openly about whatever we might, whatever might come up, there's going to be a lot of shitty times and I I did my book tour and I on my book tour it was basically a relationship advice tour which I know is possibly an ale in the coffin for any marriage especially in entertainment but I feel so strongly about this marriage because we we established so much in the first couple of years of the marriage we went through so much that I I feel really strong in it now because we understand each other and first and foremost we have enough respect for each other to be able to communicate about anything.

35:16Isn't it bizarre that that's not the norm, that we don't sit and say, what do you expect marriage to be? Because I think the emphasis is on the wedding and, oh, let's get married. It's all exciting. And then you have a wedding of varying sizes and then you're married and you're like, well, what is this? How have things changed? What does it mean? I think it's incredibly sensible to sit and have that discussion with your partner and see how they feel about it. I don't know why that's not normal. I do think that my perspective is a little different. So I was marrying my husband's white, American, and I'm very South Asian, even though many see me as not Asian, which is really funny.

36:00I am typically very Asian. I speak my own language at home. I typically wear my own culture's clothes at home. I only cook my own food, typically, Asian food. I'm very typically Asian. And so in my culture, arranged marriage is very typical. Almost everyone in my extended family has had an arranged marriage. Everyone of my siblings has had an arranged marriage with somebody they'd never met before the wedding. And we learn in our culture that we will learn to love each other and we will weather any storm. And don't get me wrong, there are certain storms you cannot weather. An abusive husband, get out of it.

36:34But if it's just slight disagreements or personality disagreements, one should be able to figure those out. if you really want to stay in that marriage. And I did, I was marrying him because I felt like I wanted to be with him forever. So why shouldn't we establish these ground rules beforehand? And so there were very simple things that I was saying that morning. I want you to understand that, I was saying to him, I want you to understand that we're probably not going to have sex every day. We'll probably have sex once a month and that has to be okay for you. And if it's not, that's okay. We might go six months without having sex.

37:09It's not about that. There may be days when you look at me thinking, you don't look so great. That's okay. That's normal. I don't expect to want to molest you every day. And that's okay. We will have really shitty times. You will hate me sometimes. That's okay. We should be able to talk about it and get through it. And so it wasn't anything profound. It was just, this is what it's going to look like long term. Are you in or are you out? Yes, practical. It's very practical. Yeah. And when I hear friends and even extended family saying, oh, things have kind of eased off. It's not really passionate anymore.

37:44I'm like, gosh, you're never going to get that forever. It's just not going to happen. I don't care how great his abs are and how big her boobs are. Like, you're not having sex every day. It's just not sustainable. Oh, God, who wants to have sex every day? Bloody hell, I don't. God almighty. Literally no interest. No, let's set that rule right at the start and make that clear. Yeah. Anyone who's like, oh, I'm a really sexual person. I know you are right now. Five years into your marriage, you're not going to be and that's okay. No, it's more than okay. And interestingly, so your parents were both born and raised in Pakistan.

38:18And as you say, arranged marriage is exceedingly common, but your parents had a love marriage. How did that impact you, do you think, growing up? Did you know they had a love marriage? When did that realisation mean something to you? I don't know when I realised it, but I think I was just always aware. And so the fact that my parents were kind of rule breakers blew my mind. And my parents weren't as traditional as many people in the community. They were a lot more flexible. They let us watch, as we called white TV. They let us wear white clothes. So they weren't as traditional and therefore their marriage didn't come as such a shock to me.

39:00And they would do things like, you would hold hands on the sofa until the day my dad died. My dad died at 47. I was 13. They were holding hands that morning on the sofa as they did every day whilst they watched TV. And so their relationship was a very bizarre one for our culture, but also really aspirational. I just thought that's what I want from my partner. I know that I won't have an arranged marriage because that's not possible for a gay arranged marriage in my culture. And so whatever I find, I want it to be as reminiscent of this as physically possible. And so my parents were able to provide a great example of what a love marriage looked like, whereas I don't think anyone in my entire extended family or my community really understood that.

39:41Yeah, I'm imagining it impacted you in so many areas of your life, because knowing what I do know about you, you seem to have always been a rule breaker inherently, even down to your love of fashion and clothes, which seems to be just in your DNA. And the moment knowing that was going to be your career choice and deciding to go to fashion college and not going down a very heavily academic route. That was quite groundbreaking, I'm imagining, for you at that time growing up in, you know, we're about this. I'm a little bit older than you. We're about the same age. But I think things have probably loosened up over the generations and there is slightly more freedom for people to walk down certain paths.

40:23But I'm imagining when you were growing up, that felt like a big act of rebellion. No joke this is going to sound like absolute bullshit but it's not I found it more difficult coming out as a designer to my family than I did coming out as queer to my family I think it was I was always very different from my siblings and when I finally came out to my mom she said I didn't know what it was called but I always knew you weren't like your other siblings in any way especially not like your brothers so it wasn't that much of a shock to anyone in the family. It was more the fact that I was doing something that wasn't academic.

40:58And that would potentially bring such shock and shame to the family. Because how could you not want to be a doctor or a lawyer? That's the only stable option for anyone. And for the longest time, gosh, it caused me such grief. Up until the day I sold my business, I think my mom thought I was selling t-shirts, legitimately thought I was selling t-shirts at the back of my car at a car boot sale. And then when I finally sold the business, and I was able to really live well, she was in complete shop she was like i thought you were selling t-shirts this whole time i was like no i had a very successful business mom thank you so much i love it and so even now i mean entertain being an entertainer in an asian community is also very odd um and so my family i i've been in on tv for five years in entertainment for six years and still they're very confused by it thinking how is this paying the bills?

41:48That can't be possible. Yeah. Yeah. It's TV sorcery is what that is. Yeah. Your love of fashion has obviously taken you into so many beautiful areas of life. And I very much like you, I'm obsessed with clothes. I love how they bring power to the equation. I'm not talking about power over people. I'm talking about feeling good about yourself and that you can switch up your day from feeling goddamn awful to actually being able to leave the house. I think there is so much power in fashion and how we can express ourselves and how we can move through the world using it. But I do, as I've grown older, I see the problems more clearly within the fashion industry in terms of environmental issues and fast fashion and how we see clothes as quite disposable.

42:39How do you navigate that mentally? How do you sort of, because I'm trying to do better and shop more responsibly, but it does feel like big change is needed. Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that people really understand how I live in the fashion world doing the job that I do. Although I'm encouraging people on Queer Eye to change up their wardrobe in order to feel better about themselves. It's not typically, I'm not suggesting that you buy constantly. I will always say buy something that feels like you, maybe the best version of you, but I'm not suggesting to anyone that they go shopping regularly.

43:21And I don't shop regularly. I buy things that make me feel good, first and foremost, and something that I can wear multiple times. This shirt that I'm wearing right now, I've worn it publicly 10 times. I wear it all the time, practically live in it. I don't buy something if I think that this is a one and done. And if I'm buying, if I'm getting something for, let's say, TV or red carpet, you know this all too well. I'm borrowing from the designer. I'm not buying it. And so that's how I try and purchase responsibly. I'm also a massive thrifter. Massive. Love. Yeah, I would say 70 percent, possibly even 80 percent of my clothes are pre-owned.

44:03and there are so many incredible pieces out there that will make you feel more unique than anything you will find. I don't want to throw anyone at the bus, but H &M. And so I do love, I do love a, I do love a thrifted moment. Oh, me too. I bet you've got such good ones in Salt Lake City. We have. One of my favourite, so do you know, this is such a weird name drop and I don't know why I'm telling you this. Do you know what Maggie Rogers is? Of course you do. You're obsessed with music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me and Maggie are going to go vintage shopping soon. She's coming to Salt Lake because I have my favourite vintage clothing store here in Salt Lake.

44:39Anywhere in the world. It's my favourite. Heaven. It's my favourite hobby. There's one in Dorset that I love, which has furniture and a few clothes. I love buying secondhand furniture. I'm never happier than in there. I know. We've got a place here that I'm obsessed with that has incredible furniture. Most of the furniture that's going in my new home is vintage furniture. I'm so excited. Knowing there's a little story behind it. Who owned it before? I know. Where did it come from? It's travelled the world to get here. I love that. Who knows? It's gorgeous. Well, look, I have just loved talking to you so much.

45:12I could talk to you for years and years. I'm booking a flight to Salt Lake City as soon as I can. We're going to go thrifting together. But good luck with your new show over here. It's so wonderful to have you on UK TV as well as Netflix. And it's just been a joy talking to you, Tan. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I really am just, I can't believe you and I are talking. It's so nice. Oh God, does that mean we're new best friends? I love Tan so much. I don't quite know what to do with myself. It's really funny because, you know, sometimes when I do this podcast, I do know the guest or I've met them before previously.

45:49On this occasion, I've just been a fan from afar. I'd not met or spoken or interacted in any shape or form with Tan. So I was nervous. So I was worried, you know, is he going to be in a good mood? Is he going to want to chat? And he was just everything and more. I so adored chatting to Tan. And yes, I'm coming to Salt Lake City. And yes, we're going thrifting together. Oh my God, I can't wait. Or maybe I could babysit for Tan and his husband and they can go and have a nice romantic dinner together. I'm up for all of it. Tan, thank you so much. I was buzzing for ages after that episode record. You can watch Tan on all new Say Yes to the Dress UK on Really from the 16th of August.

46:33And if you're out on Wednesdays, no problem. You can catch up on Discovery+. I'll be back next week with more goodness from the Happy Place Festival. But until then, you can relive the festival magic or just come and say hi on Instagram. We're at Happy Place Official. Biggest of thanks again to the wonderful Tan. To the equally wonderful producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio, and to you, your ace.

47:24Thank you.