“The shame was intense!” How Ben West coped with his brother’s suicide

0:00Before we start, this episode is about suicide. It's a vital conversation that we need to be having, but I totally understand if you'd rather leave it for now and come back to this episode when it feels right for you. Hello, and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that offers really practical ways to support your mental health. Today, I'm chatting to the brilliant Ben West. The last thing that happened between me and Sam was, as he was leaving, I sort of shouted something after him because I was annoyed at how he'd not been involved in dinner and it ended up being the last thing I ever said to him was just this heated argument and that just crushed me because I realised oh my god he did it because of me he did it because of that conversation and I went into this absolute panic and it got so intense that I felt like I couldn't tell anyone bearing in mind we had the police at our house like detectives and stuff I was like I'm going to get arrested it's my fault like they're going to arrest me for manslaughter or something.

1:01So look, we're in the thick of Jan now. We are, we're in it. There's no going back. I'm actually feeling quite motivated. I think maybe that was because I had to have a fair chunk of time off to have this operation that I had last year. Obviously, I'm very bad at resting. I got completely bored. I think I did four days of watching TV, Loving Bad Sisters, PS, best show ever. And then I got so bored, so bored. So I am raring to go. I'm feeling utterly grateful for good health and I'm healing really well. Still can't feel my ear. It's like someone else's ear stuck to my head. But bar that, I'm feeling good and I'm raring to go this Jan.

1:39And I'm really excited to be having some properly deep conversations, much like this one. So let's chat about Ben. At just 17 years old, Ben lost his younger brother, Sam, to suicide. In the six years since, Ben has done the most incredible work initiating and taking a number of mental health campaigns to Parliament. God, this chat stuck with me. Big, big, big time. Not only because Ben is the most eloquent speaker, the most level-headed young person I think I've ever met. He's astonishing. But also because I learned a lot. And that's why I really enjoy having these chats. I learned a hell of a lot.

2:20one of the things that was fascinating was hearing about the complexities of losing someone in such a way and knowing that humor and at times numbness and excruciating pain can all coexist it's not as if you just feel one thing all the time that was fascinating it was also really good to learn about what to look for in the signs of people around you how they're dealing how they're coping how maybe not coping but not telling you about it and also the shame that you can feel when you know I don't think this exclusively relates to suicide but when someone around you dies the regrets you have things you didn't do things you didn't say I think that's a big one that comes along with grief and I'm pretty sure many of us would have felt that I know I certainly have and Ben talks about that very very well we also talk about therapy and how finding the right therapist can be incredibly tricky, but definitely not impossible.

3:18And Ben actually likened it to dating, which I thought was a very interesting conclusion and pretty spot on too. I mean, there's so much in it. You just need to listen and take it all in if you can. It's a brilliant listener. I know we chat about suicide in this conversation, but there's moments of levity and lightness and humor and Ben just being brilliant and charismatic and so smart. And I really know that you'll get a lot from this one.

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5:50All right, here we go. This is the show.

6:13Ben, I'm so happy to meet you. It's really nice to meet you. I think what you're doing is really bloody excellent. Thank you. That's an understatement. But it's really important and just necessary on every level. What you're doing on social media, what you're doing with your campaigning. And also, I massively enjoyed reading your book. that I've got here, this book could save your life. I mean, even you say in the book, it's a surprise that you've written a book. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A massive surprise. Like, I start the book, because obviously, you know, when you're having a conversation about writing a book and the publishers are like, you know, what's your previous experience of reading?

6:50And I'm sitting there going, I don't think I've read a book in about 10 years since I was doing Of Mice and Men and GCSE. Yeah, the inspector calls at GCSE level. And so I was like, oh, no. because I'm not going to let this opportunity go down but it was really hard to sort of convince myself that I was good enough to do it and then even through the book, like writing it like my editor was great and it was a lot of reassurance of like you do know how to do it you do have quite a good start, it's quite conversational and I just remember thinking like I remember being in year six my English teacher called my parents in and said we don't want Ben to set his exam because we think it's going to be demoralising for him so that was my like that's what I thought my English skills were like I was like, it's not even worth bothering because they thought I was going to fail so badly that I'd be embarrassed by the exam.

7:37And so now I just love the fact that I've got a book on the table. I almost want to send it back to those teachers being like, surprise. Send it wrapped with a big red bow with F off written on the front. No, I mean, I had quite a similar experience at school. I think I was kind of written off in English. I got slightly better as time went on, but there was certainly not a book in me at that point. my teachers would have said there's no way a book in you that's quite literally 50 % of my work now is writing so I think for anyone who thinks they've got a book in them just give it a go I mean I I absolutely agree with your editor I love your style of writing it's really conversational your storytelling is impeccable it's obviously excruciatingly painful to read at times yet you've got humor in there as well that's a real skill to merge all of that together with the heavy subject of suicide yeah thank you I think it's it's really important for me like because throughout my story there's there's these moments where like obviously losing someone's suicide and going through all this stuff and dealing with mental health issues there's not really much fun to be had in that it's not a very fun time um but that's not really me and like I remember when you know when I was when I lost Sam and when when Sam died from suicide and and all these people suddenly go they sort of flock to your side you've got flowers in your house and all this And it just felt like it was this ceremonial sadness, like everyone was just had to be sad.

9:01And that's not me. I like having fun. I like laughing with people. And so from the moment that this started happening and I started talking about mental health, I wanted it to be a fun conversation because, as we both know, like people turn off. If it's not fun in some way and it's too heavy, then you're not going to get the impact that you're going to you want to create. So, yeah, having a little bit of like heartiness and a joke. And to be honest with you, there's been some really, really, really funny moments. There are. We're dealing with mental health issues and dealing with grief and going through this journey.

9:31There are some really funny things that happen. So I think it's important to tell that side of it as well. Me too. I agree with you. I think we can't talk about things with just one tone. Life isn't like that. Life's a big old mess. And also your head throws up all sorts of weird thoughts and feelings when you're going through something as heavy as grief or a mental health problem. And I think you've absolutely nailed it with this book. and also just what you're doing with social media. So for people that don't know, let's go back to what catalyzed this incredible campaigning you're doing. As you've just touched on, your brother Sam died by suicide when he was 15 years old.

10:09And that obviously impacted your life in ways that you could not have imagined. Going back to before Sam died, in the book you talk about your mum mentioning to you that Sam had depression. And you were a teenager yourself at this point. Tell us about your reaction to her telling you that. So Sam was diagnosed with clinical depression in September 2017 while we were both at school. We sort of noticed him changing over the course of a year, but he's 15 years old. Like, what 15-year-old wants to play Happy Families, you know? What sort of changes were you noticing as a brother? Well, when I was growing up, I have got two brothers.

10:50Sam and I had another brother, Tom, and we were all similar age. So we would just play together, mess around together. And slowly over time, as we grew older, we just wouldn't do that together anymore. And with Sam, he was spending a lot of time on his own. He was spending a lot of time. He was an amazing artist. He produced his own music. He created these incredible paintings, like a talent that I'm so jealous of because I would love to be able to do that now. but he would spend hours, days and days and days just on his own in his room creating paintings and music and just really became quite secluded.

11:27He wouldn't talk at dinner, he just wouldn't get involved, he didn't have a sense of humour that he used to have with us at least because he still was funny at school but we weren't seeing that fun, friendly Sam at home which to be honest as a 17-year-old me that had this friend that I lived with I really felt like I'd lost him already because I'd lost this person that actually throughout my life was this really fun person that was always making me laugh. Then he was diagnosed with depression. And I guess I look back now and I should have just gone click. Oh, that makes sense because it does now.

12:01But at the time, you know, like you said, my mom sat me down after dinner and was just like, I just think you should be aware that Sam's been diagnosed with clinical depression. and I was like okay yep fine sure I'm allowed to go and sort of got down and went upstairs and went to bed and I never I never talked to him about it like that was the last time depression was ever mentioned and I look back now and it's really difficult because essentially what I'd been told in that moment was Sam has been diagnosed with an illness in three months time is going to kill him and I reacted as if I'd been told he had the flu and it makes me quite sad that I didn't have the knowledge of what that was that didn't realize that he'd been diagnosed with this really significant illness and I often think like if mum had told me Sam would be diagnosed with cancer I would have gone oh my god where is he like let's go and get him down I would love to talk to him like that's awful and essentially he had been diagnosed this awful awful awful illness and and yeah never never spoke to him there were moments where I felt like I wanted to talk to him um I used to pick him up from school and uh when I when I was learning to drive or after I'd learned to drive thankfully he would have been a terrible instructor um or after I learned to drive and uh there were moments where we'd sit there in silence and we were both we were both thinking about it we both wanted to say something but i guess that that awkwardness of approaching that subject when you don't really know what you're doing and and for me not really understanding the significance of it we never we never did and obviously i you know that's a regret i'm always going to have that i didn't um and something i felt hugely guilty about for a long time and i'm sure we'll touch on that lovely lovely emotion that is shame which just haunts people and it's so unfair because it's not shame is so rarely the right emotion for a moment but yeah that shame of not having that conversation probably fueled more of my campaigning and the work I do now than I probably admit to um that feeling of trying to right a wrong particularly at the start was such a powerful force at making me go wow I need to do something good um obviously there's lots of other reasons but I felt like I wronged him and that's the wrong thing to think but by being told that and not talking really really makes you wonder like especially as I was his older brother like You should have been there, whatever.

14:29That really played on my mind for many, many, many years, actually. I bet. But, you know, as we will get to in your extensive campaigning, we don't get educated about this stuff at school. We're not told to look for the signs that people are suffering. We're not told how to talk about depression and mental health. We have no clue. I mean, I don't feel that much better equipped at my age now with all the stuff I've been through and looked at. It's still got this awkwardness about it. We still feel unsure as to how we should broach that subject with people that we know are having a tough time. If there's someone out there listening thinking, I know that my partner, sibling, friend is suffering and I don't know how to even go about initiating that chat, what would you say?

15:20I guess in another way, it's if I could go back into that car, what would I say now? I think the first thing I'd say is it's really, it's really scary. And I sometimes say that, you know, when I talk about, oh, if mum had said he had cancer, I would have reacted differently. I'm not sure I would have done because actually even that's a really scary, horrible conversation to have. And I think that the part of the conversation is it's just, it's just really, really normal to feel nervous about asking people if they're okay. And I don't think we talk about that enough. Everyone's like, talk about your mental health.

15:50but it's still really, really, really, really scary. It's so hard for the person who's experiencing and it's so hard for the person who's trying to help. Yeah, 100%. We can't talk about it like it's simple and we shouldn't try and talk about it as if it's always going to be easy. But I would say we have to come up with a bit of a plan. So go away, have a think about what you've noticed and sort of indicate that behaviour. So with Sam, like I've noticed you've been, I've noticed that he was secluded and take himself off and didn't really wasn't really engaging in our conversations at dinner and stuff so sort of notice something and then go into that situation and count down from three so three to one and just say what you need to say just rip the plaster off because once you've said something you can then go okay well that's we've crossed that line now let's have a conversation and i think crossing that line is the hardest part so i talk about in the book but i've got my um cup of tea one two three guess get a mug of tea in someone's hand and just count down from three and say you don't see myself at the moment what's going on and then you've crossed that line in the sand and that's for them now to throw it back to you and they can go yeah i'm actually having a difficult time and oh my you've met you that's created that conversation and that's an amazing thing but it's it's scary so sort of coming up with a plan just saying something at the count of three and just and just seeing what happens with that conversation is really good and i wish you know if I'd gone back into that car journey and just gone mum told me about what's going on how are you finding it how amazing would that have been how amazing would that have been for him to have gone it's not this weird awkward thing that no one's talking about anymore you know and I that would have just if I was putting myself in his shoes that would have just felt so magical to have had it acknowledged and and have the next 10 minutes of just chatting and you know it makes me feel a bit emotional sitting here thinking about that and I guess you can think all day long about the different scenarios that I could have done and should have done and would have done but I guess that feeds back into what I try and do now which is you know there are still so many people out there like you say that that really can do this and can make people feel comfortable and can break down stigma in their own family or their friends or at work and they have that opportunity to really do something really incredible for that person but it is it's scary and I don't want to talk about it as if it's this easy thing that we should just be able to do.

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20:17It's amazing that you're out there saying this stuff because I don't think it's like, oh, some people are struggling with this. I think most people, probably 99 % of people who have someone in their life who they know is having a tough time feel incredibly awkward about that conversation. So even by us just sat here now chatting about it could hopefully influence. I'm thinking about people in my own head now even could influence so many different people and how they go about that. So definitely don't underestimate the power of what you're even saying now. It's it's huge. It's huge. It's really huge.

20:56um chapter two of the book is a tough read oh yeah but it is essential I mean I was I was gripping the pages of the book reading it and I was like I can't skim over this bit and I I need to read it and you explicitly say you've written it for that reason we can't shy away from the facts and in chapter two you explicitly detail the evening that Sam died you were all under the same roof when it happened with your mum and it's it's a nightmare it's an absolute nightmare but it is so important that we're not skimming over these stories that we're not bypassing them to get to the easier part of the conversation I mean I'm imagining that was horrific to write yeah but is definitely helping you put that message across that we've got to chat about this stuff this is so important and we'll get to some horrendous stats later on in this chat but it is so important to tell these stories I think you're completely right I mean chapter two was one of those where I was thinking about it for so so so long going do I want to do it how much do I put detail do I put in um and then I just I just thought you know this is happening every day right multiple times a day and you said we're going to get into stats but it is people don't realize how common suicide is in not just in the country but around the world and i don't think people realize just how absolutely awful it is for not just me and my family but the emergency services people the police the fire brigade the ambulance service the air ambulance everyone that's involved it is absolutely one of the worst things that when you speak to the emergency services you know it's one of the common thread that I'd say it's the job you dread getting on the on the radios and I just wanted to tell chapter two that night in as much detail as I possibly could because I want people to sit there and read and put themselves in that position and just understand why we need to do something you know if we look at the stats over the last 50 years suicide rates remained pretty much the same not just in the UK but across the world and I think without understanding why we need to do something and how just devastating it is in that moment and traumatic we we can't ever have a proper conversation about why we need to stop it so for me yeah I look back I've still got this because it was at chapter two it was the first time I went back into his room as well because I wanted to sort of really experience it and work and sort of work out what I wanted the book to be at that point as well because I think as well the other misconception people have about writing a book is you start it knowing where it's going to go and I didn't with this one I wanted to sort of see where it went but yeah I went into his room and and it was a lot it was a lot um to just suddenly flood back and but having said that putting it onto a page was one of the most incredible experiences you must have found the same but like it was really weird writing this just brutal detailed horrific traumatic experience onto paper almost felt like it was it was out there it was like oh there it is it's almost like taking it out of your own head and putting it on the paper and it was it was an amazing experience and I'm really proud of that chapter actually because it took a huge step for me to write it um but also it it's one of the rare it's rare in itself that there's not many there's not many things that you can see online or in on tv or in books that's so explicit that gives you such an insight into the intricacies of what happens when someone takes their own life and that feels special to me because i don't i think people need to understand what happened um and it's it's just oh god it was just awful absolutely awful i mean you mentioned nightmare it wasn't I I literally took a photo of it happening because I didn't realize that because I thought it was a dream I was so convinced that it was a nightmare that I have to take a photo because that's not going to be here tomorrow and how great will that be I wake up and oh the photo is not there and um obviously you know it it was still there on my phone the next morning um and that was the beginning of a huge huge change in my life I mean yeah uh life life-altering evening in every sense and you very articulately describe the shock the trauma every emotion that's running through your body and mind at that point shock is such a strange one because I think we react our bodies and minds are quite clever in trying to cope with situations that are too overwhelming to process in the moment.

25:52And that shock led you to still feel like it was all a bit too surreal to believe. And you took yourself off to school the next morning. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, looking back, how does that feel that you tried to trot back in and just carry on? Oh, it did. I mean, I was so happy to be back at school. I mean, everyone at school got told what happened that morning. It was literally the night before. Yeah. They must have seen me coming in school being like, this is some sick joke. What's going on? Because I didn't mention, I was happy. I was laughing. I think I remember I sort of skipped up towards this group of people.

26:29And I was like, hey, everyone, how's everyone doing? And they must have been like, what on earth is going on? I think for me, that was a real physical rejection of what had gone on. Like my body just went, no, that's not happened. That's not happening. and it was I think people think of denial as like a mental thing for me that mental thing just was so powerful it became I am going to completely reject this I'm going to get in my car and do what I'd normally do on a Monday evening and go to school for an after school thing that I was part of and yeah I just went trotting in and smiling and happy and pretending like nothing had happened and then I mean partly because I hadn't slept at all so I was just exhausted that sort of crept up on me quite quickly and I was realized I was teaching this lesson I was like can't really teach I'm not going to be able to do this this isn't fair I'm really exhausted and then I sort of left and then bumped into these random people from my year group that were just walking along the path and they stopped and they were like I mean must have been again must have been shocking for them but they were like so sorry to hear about all this and they hugged me and I was like wow this that's you I was dragged back to reality so quickly and blessed and that was so lovely to get in that moment and I just remember sitting in my car in January it was nights it was dark and just like whacking my steering wheel until the car was like beeping just beside myself and then I had to be like well I'm not going to drive home now I need to like go and just cool down for a little bit and it was that basically describes how it was for a good period of time which was when I felt able to I would pretend it didn't happen and would just be like my normal self and then suddenly something would happen that would trigger me or I got tired and it would just fall apart and I'd fall off the cliff and just sort of realise that everything was real and it was all happening and then I'd get my strength back and I'd go up to this pretending and it was exhausting but I guess it just showed how much I just wanted it not to be real that for weeks I was going through these moments of just really living as if it hadn't happened.

28:30Grief's so weird, isn't it? I still don't really understand it. No, no, because it's not this process that makes sense where you incrementally just feel okay. It's like, like you said, that's a really good description of these moments of almost sort of numbness where you're like, it's not happening. I'm in denial. And then it hits you again. And then you go back to numb again. I think most people that have been through grief would go, yeah, I've absolutely. And then you feel a bit guilty when you feel numb or you're carrying on with your everyday life. Shouldn't I be feeling something? You know, it's so confusing.

29:03And as you touched on earlier, feeling that sense of guilt, but also the next level down, which is shame. And I'm sure many people, including myself, have felt extreme shame about things in life. It's probably one of the ugliest emotions to feel. It makes your skin crawl. It makes you just want to escape everything. It's just a horrible, toxic, toxic feeling. you at one point again I'm imagining due to your level of shock and grief felt responsible for Sam's death and that was grinding you down and bringing on so much shame how did you start to lift yourself out of that I think when you're in shame you feel like this is it forever I'm never ever going to rid myself of this what helped you to move through that yeah it's an interesting question it's funny isn't it because I've done so much work I don't feel that shame anymore thankfully but I sometimes need to remind myself of just how intense that was so I mean I'm very unfortunately you know as we were brothers like we argued a lot got on quite a lot but one of the last things that happened well the last thing that happened between me and Sam was as he was leaving I sort of shouted something off after him because I was annoyed at how he'd not been involved in dinner and it ended up being the last thing I ever said to him was just this heated argument and that just crushed me because I realized I can't remember when but maybe not the day after but like when things had started to settle I just remembered what had happened and I was like oh my god he did it because of me he did it because of that conversation and I went into this absolute panic and realized and obviously the nature of shame is you feel a bit of shame then you feel ashamed about that and then it all just cascades and I I just remember panicking feeling that shame and it got so intense that I couldn't I felt like I couldn't tell anyone about it because I thought everyone else had forgotten that happened and if I was to say something bearing in mind we had the police at our house like detectives and stuff I was like oh I'm gonna get arrested it's my fault like they're gonna arrest me for manslaughter or something and it seems silly sitting here saying it but I was so convinced that I'd committed a crime that I was absolutely petrified of anyone finding out that I felt so ashamed and I guess that probably played a little bit into me trying to pretend like I was okay and being happy because I just wanted it I really really really was scared of of going to prison and being arrested for this so much for you to deal with 17 I know 17 right but also you've lost your brother and then you think it's your fault I don't know how you got through it no I know and I guess for a long time it was just sort of pretending that I was okay luckily for me like I had a absolute I mean my family were just incredible my friends were incredible I don't think I'd be as good a friend as they were it was just I just have so much respect and awe and admiration for how all of those those people were for me um so I was very very lucky in terms of like the support network but also you know my the campaigning started I realized I wanted to do something I realized I needed something fun to do at that moment in time I was revising my a-levels and I just went life at the moment is a-level revision or grief and I want a third option so I wanted to do something fun and that that gave me a sense of self-worth that I needed I think at that point but really the turning point of shame was the first time I told that story about feeling like I was going to be arrested to a lovely lovely lovely counsellor that I worked with for a number of years, Lucy, and I remember sitting there, it was during COVID, so it was virtually, and just sort of telling the story.

32:51It took me many, many, many sessions to get to this point of feeling comfortable saying this, and I just told her how I've actually felt about everything, and I told her about what I felt about that night, and why I think he took his own life that night, and she just stopped me, and she was just like, well, Ben, that's not how it works, you know, that's not how it works. It is nothing you did made that happen, and it's not your fault. and it was just this weird moment it almost feels like a movie like I'm making this up but it was this moment where it's like oh my god yeah you're so right and it took me years I think I was four years later to get to that point of like someone else told me it wasn't my fault and that was enough for my brain to go oh yeah of course it isn't and that was the first that was the first moment I really was okay with it not being my fault and from that moment like I've I've spoken to a lot of people that have been suicidal and one of the questions I ask all of them is like what do you think in that moment what's that what is that last thought before you before you commit to what you to what you're about to do what is that last thought and and none of them have said it's that argument or that one thing someone's shouted at me or it's that one menial moment that that someone's thinks about you know it's it's not if from talking to those people it's so settling that actually in that moment your brain is just in such a distorted place that you're not having thoughts that make sense and that with that's been very settling and I've sort of tried to understand not that you can understand too much about suicide but I've tried to understand and through that I've felt settled back that actually I didn't do anything wrong and I've reframed a lot of my shame to go how on earth was 17 year old Ben so unaware and so uneducated that I didn't get the tools to help because if my current self went back to being 17 I know so much more I could have I could I do help people that are in that situation like I I love I work for shout as a volunteer like I have conversations with people that are in crisis all the time I would be able to help like if I'd had that knowledge back then and my mum had had her knowledge back then my family had their knowledge back then the school had the knowledge they have now back then what could have been different it's just it's not it's hard to think about um but I guess you know it comes back to the campaigning that yeah we can now try and make a difference and a lot of my shame got redirected into anger at why I wasn't given that opportunity to essentially save Sam yeah how interesting how interesting that emotions can morph into something completely different like a level up and actually you're channeling that anger into I'm gonna bloody well make changes and you are I mean massive ones which which we're going to get to but I think it's so important for people who have either been through something similar or just feel shame to know that it's not your fault and you've done that via someone telling you a brilliant counsellor but also by educating yourself and knowing that it's an illness and there's nothing that you potentially could have done that evening to stop that from happening this might sound like a bit of a stupid question but do you think that sam had the access to the support that he needed at that time because i I think it sounds like a stupid question to ask because he obviously didn't.

36:09But I know some people might get access, but then still take their own life. Really, really, really, really interesting question because yes and no. Sam was receiving treatment. He was on a waiting list for NHS support. But my mum most of all realised how significant this was and just put him into private therapy off her own back. So essentially, yes, he was receiving CBT. But the investigation into what was going on was very surface level. So they were treating him like a person with depression, which CBT is actually a very effective form of therapy for a lot of people. when it does work it saves lots of people's lives but we know that cbt um cognitive behavioral therapy has quite a low efficacy rate with people who are neurodiverse um right so people with autism particularly cbt doesn't work as well as i did not know this is fascinating do we know why um it's how their thoughts work i mean if you're trying cbt essentially is trying to rewire thought patterns and understand and thoughts in your own head and it's with someone with autism for instance that has a very different way of thinking about things and arrives at decisions in a slightly different way the just premise of cbt doesn't quite work as well so and i've spoken to a lot of i've got a really really close friend of mine who's a clinical psychologist and i've spoken to him on a number of occasions and the fact that no one went that step further and went I think there's something else going on here.

37:50Let's just get you in for an assessment for autism, ADHD, neurodiversity, because then we can get a better idea of what's going on and we can tailor that support better to you. Because Sam was, Sam just played the system from what I've heard. He, he knew exactly what to say. He knew exactly what to say to stop everyone worrying. he wanted to come across like everything was going well like therapy was going well one of the last things his psychologist said to my mom when she had her like catch up with him was he's really low risk we have no concerns it's all going really well right and i think for me if we analyze that something really really really fundamental has gone wrong in their approach to his treatment for them to arrive at a conclusion that he's low risk when he he was he was imminently about to die so for me and from talking to people what needed to happen was more investigation into actually what's going on his brain mapping how he thinks whether he's neurodiverse what's going on there which you know and retrospectively it's almost certain he had some level of of autism and and then being able to provide different therapies and and tailored therapies to to support him but unfortunately as as we all know from the news recently getting those diagnoses of autism ADHD even getting an assessment for them is just so inaccessible yeah and then that sort of comes back to a point when I sort of sit here and I'm feeling myself going into campaigner mode now but I'm like you know actually it's not just about missing out on diagnosis of autism and ADHD but actually if we don't have access to those assessments people that are having CBT don't fully understand why or if it's not working for them so there's a whole conversation we had there about like our limitations by not having access to looking at a person as a whole person rather than just going you have depression we do cbt we we can't get stuck in that situation so to answer your question yes he was receiving treatment but the quality of treatment was just shocking because no one bothered or no one thought to go beyond that and it's not like i have blame for them i think we are all learning the mental health situation is adapting and evolving rapidly at the moment there's a lot of research going in i guess the anger for me when i talk about it is that that research and understanding wasn't already available but again it sort of folds back into the the campaigner aspect of this and what i keep coming back to which is that we need to get that research started we need to get that understanding started because if that counselor or that therapist and that psychotherapist and psychiatrist had better understanding of what they should be doing to treat him then good quality treatment could have made a massive difference yeah so yeah so the answer is yes and no it's so interesting I mean I didn't know that and I I love learning about this stuff and I spend a lot of time looking into this stuff and that's essential for me to know that I'm glad that you've just told me that and it feels like you know so much of this goes back to huge systemic problems we've got in the world not just in the UK, in terms of getting that access to the right support.

40:57And it not just being like, here's a counsellor. And I know you write about this in the book, even through your own mental health journey, finding the right one. I mean, I've been through tons. And it's not that they're not doing a good job a lot of the time. You've got to gel with them. You've got to feel you can trust them. You've got to feel that level of safety that you can open up to people and have those chats. It's like dating. It's like dating. It is. It really is. And it should feel like dating because you're choosing someone to trust. So it should, the first few sessions with a counsellor should feel like you're on a date.

41:31Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, ethically, let's not do a date. Just on a surface chat level. Maybe don't go to Wagamama's with them. No, no. But it should feel like you're like really exploring them. Do you feel comfortable with them? Because the fundamentals of therapy is like, it's not like being treated with antibiotics. like you need there's a human connection that used to be had there if you don't feel comfortable with them then leave you know you take you try and take your money elsewhere or try and and approach the person that's you know running you operating your care if you're under an nhs care plan have that conversation yeah um tell them you're not happy with this person be quite forceful um try and get someone that you feel comfortable with because i hear from so many people that feel stuck with someone that they don't trust that's that's patronizing for whatever reason and obviously we've got a whole issue of access to treatment but be honest about what you need and the person that you're talking to because there is options available in terms of swapping and getting someone else or seeing someone else.

42:33Yeah, fine, they might be limited but there is a chance that someone will go, okay, that's fine, we're going to try something else or bring someone else in that you might feel better with. So it's always worth being honest about how you're feeling but yeah, consider it a date, the first few. Yeah, it's a good way of thinking about it. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

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44:21I can't stop thinking about this. So with you saying there a moment ago that you knew, or retrospectively, you know that Sam was playing the system to a degree and that his therapist seemed happy enough with his psychotherapist with, you know, how he was reacting to the treatment. That probably made your mum feel slightly calmer, I'm imagining. you were a teenage boy you hadn't had that chat as we've already discussed there'll be many people out there who probably have an inkling that someone they live with or are friends with are not doing well yet whenever they ask they are met with i'm fine i'm absolutely fine like there's nothing wrong how do we get to the truth of it how do we get to what's really going on because i think people that are suffering and you know we know that there are a whole host of mental health issues out there that make people feel extremely isolated.

45:15I've definitely been there with all manner of things, whether it's eating disorders or OCD, that I don't often want to go there with those thoughts or feelings or admit them in the moment when someone asks, how are you doing? You think, I can't be bothered to go there with this right now. Do you or have you learned through the campaigning you're doing to know what the right questions are to ask or to know the tact so you can approach that subject and really find out what's going on because people are experts at masking they're great at saying and especially as we know with neurodivergence autism adhd masking is a huge symptom essentially of people going into social situations and acting as if they feel fine but they're feeling total social anxiety or like running out the room whatever but the masking keeps them in the setting they're meant to be in at work or school whatever it might be how do we get to the truth of how someone's really feeling it's an interesting one I think when we when we think about talking about mental health it can be easy to immediately talk about how we ask the question but actually to create a conversation with someone a supportive conversation you know our preparation needs to begin before long before the conversation actually starts so what I'd say is firstly let's let's identify why someone's feeling like they need to mask it um is it awkwardness is it stigma is it the environment sort of assessing why someone might be just saying i'm fine i'm fine you know just assessing why do they feel comfortable talking to you is it the wrong environment to use an example for if someone's got an eating disorder and you're asking them around lunchtime you know they're going to feel vulnerable as they're not going they're going to mask they're going to not want to talk about Because that's such a secret one.

46:58I mean, my mum used to confront me about, she would assume that I was being sick in the toilet and I would go, like, read offensive. No, no, I'm not. And it took years for me to admit that one. You know, like a lot of these mental health issues, they thrive in secrecy. That's the whole point. So you're so right to pinpoint that one because you've got to be tactful with the timing and when you're talking about that. When you say that you went defensive, what was that feeling that made you feel like you had to go, I'm fine, I'm fine? I didn't want her to bust me. I was like, I don't want to stop doing this.

47:38So if I admit that it's happening, then I'm going to have to do something about it. And I didn't want to. It was my private thing. And I didn't want her knowing about it. And I feel awful putting my mum through that at the time. You know, it's a horrible stress for parents to go through. But I think so many of these mental health issues, they thrive in secrecy and you become defensive because you're like, I didn't think anyone knew this was happening. I don't I didn't want you to know about this. And I sure don't want you to now because I'm not going to fix this anytime soon. So it's a tricky one because you need to be helped.

48:13But you're so unwilling in that moment. Yeah, it sounds like there was an element of not wanting to lose control. Oh, yeah. Having someone else take control of the situation. So if we take that, for example, if potentially we come up with the fact that maybe they don't want to lose control of the situation, then the next question we ask is how can we not confront? Because that's never going to achieve anything. How can we not come across as confrontational, but really come alongside them? Because everything in terms of mental health is teamwork. like it doesn't work if it's there's a power dynamic it has to be teamwork um so if we assess for example that someone's scared of losing control maybe for instance they've been sectioned in the past and they're really really worried about being sectioned again how do we then ask them in a way that's not going to make them lose control we're saying it you know um and then before we have that conversation the final thing we need to think about is if you really want to get someone to to talk about something it's just don't be ambiguous about what you're asking for example in this situation we're sort of constructing here someone's been sectioned before in the past there's displaying symptoms that were similar to how they were before they're really not going to talk because they're so worried about being being sectioned then it's a case of i know you're probably concerned because of what happened before but i've noticed these things we don't have to do anything but i just interested in hearing if like how you're feeling at the moment and and just sort of constructing it like that i've noticed this i understand that you might not want to talk because of this but i don't have to do anything but we let's have a conversation about it right and we can just see where it goes and i think that's a really powerful way of doing it because in that moment there is no power dynamic so you're very much coming alongside you're reassuring against their fears which is losing control so you're saying you don't have to do anything i'm just interested to hear what's going on and you're not being ambiguous you're saying i've noticed this that's a statement and then we can have a conversation so they know that you've seen something so it's harder to then sort of go I'm fine I'm fine so if you can do that and I think if we just use that conversation as a as a model that's a great way of sort of approaching that situation but from that we can go well really if we want to have a conversation with anyone a power dynamic is the is the antithesis of a supportive conversation so how can we come alongside how can we come along as a friend as a family member as a team and work together and i think when we're supporting someone the most powerful thing you can say is you don't have to do any of this on your own you know like we're going to work on this together or we're going to come up with a plan together let's go and research some things together and that word together is just it's just revolutionary in a conversation because it's not you saying i think you should do this or i think you should go and see the gp or i think you should talk to me about this stuff It's going, let's do this together.

51:00Let's really walk alongside each other and come up with a plan together. You don't have to do this on your own. And to address, you know, what we talked about with you, which is that element of control, you're not taking control away. You know, they are doing it with you. So that's how I would do it now. That's really helpful to hear that because I think it's the tone that we struggle with. People don't know whether you're meant to call someone out or it feels like you're calling them out on their behavior. Or some people, I'm always very solution led. So I could easily fall into the trap of going, I've got all the answers and I'm going to fix this.

51:40But I love that idea of it's teamwork. You're working with this person on their terms to start with. So it's gentle and that you can go away and do the research and learn together. I think that's a really cool thing to hear. I really like that. And not many people think of it like that. No. Because you said, I mean, most people are what we call rescuers, right? They see someone drowning and they want to just jump in and drag them out, right? Most people are like that. We have that sort of instinctive thing of going, oh, you should do this. I know what to fix in your situation. But when you study motivational interviewing, it's like a really amazing technique in this.

52:18And when you do shout training and you are on the shout platform as a crisis volunteer and I teach mental health first aid and the sort of common theme in all of that is giving advice is never going to work because it creates that power dynamic and it's very invalidating of someone. Yeah. And one of the best things I've been told is you can feel like you know what you're doing and what advice to give someone. But the only person that knows exactly what's going on is that person. So allowing them by asking questions, allowing them to come up with the conclusions to what they need to do next is the most powerful thing.

52:54And also it's probably if you can do that, they're much more likely to follow through because they've come up with it themselves. So it's not going, oh, you should do this because then people are like, oh, yeah, OK, fine, fine, fine. But actually, if they've come up with an idea and you go, that's an amazing idea. That's such a good idea. Yeah, definitely do that. Then they're going to be, well, they're going to feel a sense of pride. They've come up with that myself and they're already sort of bought into the idea of doing it. So, yeah, I feel like that. I really, really, really, really struggle not to give advice.

53:22Because I hear someone go, oh, I've got this going on. I'm like, oh, you should go and see your GP because that's what they really be able to help. Or you should just talk to that person at work that you're not getting on with. It's so hard not to. But once you crack that and you can understand how you can get them to arrive at that decision that you want them to do, then it's a it's a really really really really powerful way of getting someone to talk and and get support i think also for parents that's a really cool thing to hear because kids reaction whatever age usually when you're offering advice it's like oh my god shut up like stop wanging on about all the things you know and i don't and i think many parents you know you you you clash because that is the power dynamic at play.

54:06I mean, to dive into this further in terms of what to do if someone's struggling, one of the horrendous stats, we know all of these stats, but there's no harm in us repeating them again. And also, you know, you say in the book, a lot of the time when we're throwing big percentages and numbers around, you just go numb to it like, yeah, 8 billion, trillion, whatever people are suffering. Like we become switched off. But actually, we need to try and understand that the statistics are bleak so that we can do something about it. So let's dive into the disparity between genders, because 75 % of all suicides in the UK are men.

54:47I mean, 75%. We can't feel numb to that. We can picture 100 people and then see 75. It's a hell of a lot. are we able to reduce it down to men don't talk about things as much as women because that always seems to be the sort of conclusion or the loose assumption we can come to in the work you've done would you say that's accurate or is there more lurking beneath that this is a really interesting question and one that's evolving a lot I think this year I've seen so many people really challenging that to a certain extent yes of course there is an issue with men talking about emotions like my girlfriend when she meets up with her friends she will chat she'll come back she'll know absolutely everything that's going on in her life and i'll come back from seeing my mates and she's just like oh you know how's this person how's you know she's broken up with his girl how is he doing and i'm like i literally know what's going on with every body part of my girlfriend's how they're emotionally dealing with things it is a it's a funny difference and it is weird and sometimes because i obviously do this a lot and talk about these conversations a lot sometimes i sort of step back in a conversation just watch it and i'm like we're not really talking about anything so i think there's an element of there is an element of we don't talk about emotions as much as women but i do think there's more to it there is a lot more to this than just men don't talk there is the sort of stereotypical feelings amongst men of like being providers and and all of this and so when we actually look at the suicide data you know of that that 75 of men the majority of those men are middle-aged so it's clearly at some point they sort of reach this age where maybe they come into a huge amount of debt or start you know using alcohol or maybe they lose access to their children or go through a divorce we see and this is all just assumptions at that point because i don't know the data but we see there's a real increase in suicides for middle-aged men and i'm trying to think like maybe there's more to this conversation about than just talking um Maybe we have to have conversations about, you know, the treatment of men to a certain extent, which we've tried for the right reasons.

56:54We've tried to dismantle the patriarchy and all of these things. But by doing that, we have left an enormous amount of men sort of very confused about where they fit in the world. And I think we've left a lot of people behind in that conversation. I mean, we look at Andrew Tate, for example. you know you could be very you could be excused at looking at the people that have followed him and and really love what he's saying as sort of extremists and just completely aggressive and anti-women but actually i think what's really interesting about that is actually there's clearly a whole group of men in particular that have been completely left behind in this conversation that are so confused about their role that they've really like knuckled down and just sort of tied themselves down to this old traditional patriarchal because they're scared Because they're confused and don't know what their role is.

57:43So it's a really, really, really interesting question about why the 75%. And I think we're moving now beyond men don't talk because I'm sure that's part of it. I'm absolutely sure that's an element of it. But I think it does it needs to go further than that. And I think that there's there's something to do with the sort of fundamental societal roles of men that just gets to a point where they they just don't see many other options. And suicide is seems like the only option at the time. So it's an interesting question. I don't really know the answer. And this is why this is why I like you. I just love talking to people because you talk to people, the more you sort of go.

58:23oh that's interesting in your situation and actually a lot of men that have felt like that that I've talked to do talk right they tell people about these things there's no one answer yeah no exactly it's too big it is it's too big and there's no one solution that you know there's millions of things that need to happen to make changes and not just with men another thing that you are deeply passionate about is looking at not only the school system but also university Because, again, you present us with some pretty gruesome facts about suicide in universities and the lack of not only lack of support, but lack of acknowledgement that it's even happening in universities.

58:59And the fact that people go for the first time, leave home, staying with people that don't know in a completely strange environment. Of course, people are suffering and let alone even bring lockdown into the equation. You've started all sorts of incredible campaigns and petitions and ones that have gained so much traction. I mean, you've sat with Boris Johnson and tried to get him to listen. Tried desperately to get him to listen to what you're saying and what you know needs to be done. What have you seen change in the time that you've been campaigning, which I'm sure you would be really humble and say, oh, maybe I've had a bit to do with it.

59:37I'm pretty sure you've had a lot to do with a lot of these changes. But what do you think is moving in the right direction within this conversation? We've identified problems, which is sort of a very basic step in this whole problem. But it's a good step, which is that NHS mental health service doesn't function like it should at all. Nowhere near. We've got this problem that we're identifying with neurodiversity diagnosis. And the knock on effect that has, which I've described, is just really, really dangerous. um we've we've found that there's a gap in schools which obviously something i'm really passionate about um but then it just feels like we're not making the step further we've gone this is all that's wrong we know this is wrong but we're not really then doing anything and i think it's one there's one thing going this isn't working there's a completely different thing going this is what we can do to fix it and i've been really careful in my work is i love complaining I love I love a complaint it's a therapeutic to complain but you know it's not helpful to go um you know it's just broken uh mental health service is broken schools aren't performing like they should we like it's all just broken and you've got to be careful particularly in my role to not just say that and and think of that as a successful thing to say so then it's a case of like okay what do we need to do so in schools for instance that's why I started the petition for teacher training because I realized that yeah schools aren't doing what they should in terms of mental health support but hold on we're not teacher training you receive no education on mental health or you have no idea how a child's brain works i mean how how can you possibly do the job as a teacher without having any understanding of children's mental health it just doesn't make sense to me so i'm like well there's there we go there's an immediate fix let's integrate that into teacher training so that every single teacher in the uk has some level of understanding of mental health yeah it's not going to solve the whole thing overnight but it's going to do a really good job at starting that that shift you know and then with universities it's the same thing there was a lot of this is a problem which it is well actually there's a lot of people that still deny that there is a problem i know i mean please explain this in more detail because i was shocked about yeah what you went through with this oh uni the uni the uni campaigning i sort of stumbled upon so i went to uni just after sam died actually september 2018 so i was like not in a good place when I started university and and I had a great time I met some amazing people that's still my friends now but realized quite quickly because then we went into lockdown realized quite quickly that wow there's an issue here that no one's talking about mental health I remember getting an email from the vice chancellor saying you know they had a weekly update about covid and what was going on so we got a weekly email that said this is what's going on with covid19 um this is all of our rules this is what we're doing this is how we're updating the rules and it was like a two page long email and right at the bottom of the email it said um if you are struggling uh here's the website and here's the number for student support thanks whatever his name was and i was like no one's i know students we've not read to the end of email i've only read to it because i am interested in seeing if they've said it like i how do you not know that there was the first line let's be honest i had to open it in another window to see this like Wow.

1:02:54What student opens it in another window? No, none. So I was like, okay, let's close. So I emailed them back and I pushed back and I was like, that just shows how little consideration I should give this. And they invited me for a meeting and blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, I was getting, as anyone does with social media that talks about mental health, a lot of people reach out with stories. And those stories started to become, oh, my God, my friend just died at uni. Like they just found him in his room. or another person this person's missing can you please share this and it was just almost felt like felt like daily i was getting these messages you know i've got messages saying um we have tried to call an ambulance for a friend and uh we've called the university to ask for help and they've said because it's happening off campus um we can't help you and a lot of stories like that started coming through and i was like this isn't right and if everyone remembers sorry to bring you all back to this moment but remember in the covid briefings and the covid laws it was if you have to obey by by lockdown unless you're a danger of harm so that was predominantly for domestic abuse rightly you you're not can't be legally forced to stay at home in a dangerous situation but i kept saying to students i was like if you are at risk of harm you have absolutely every right to leave so if you need to go home to your family because you're you're self-harming or you're thinking about suicide get out and go just go just drive and see a friend this is life or death go and see a friend so i kept saying that and i was that was helping some people were like thank you for saying that i didn't know that i was able to do that i felt really trapped so i was like oh my god i can't even it's so bleak that oh he was we were all doing these stupid fucking rules i'm sorry i mean that's life or death that's life or death that we weren't seeing other humans and no one And I would have loved for someone in the media to have related that back to mental health.

1:04:47Because everyone was talking rightly about domestic abuse. I was scared to, if I'm honest. Because I felt like this is bleak. There are people out there I know that are on their own and they shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was such a scary time. Like, are we allowed to say fuck the rules? You need to go see a human? That's life and death. That's life and death. It is. And for a lot of people it was. It was. A lot of people died because they didn't have access to their supports. So anyway, we saw all of this going on. And then I got in, very sadly, someone I was at school with, Phoebe, took her own life at Newcastle University.

1:05:17She wasn't in my year. I think she was a year below me. She was lovely. I remember sort of, I never spoke to her very much, but she was really into like art and drama, I think. So I'd walk past the corridor and we'd like smile or whatever. And she was always that person that was like really smiley. And yeah, she died in Newcastle during lockdown. and I reached out to her mum and I was like really really sorry that is just so so awful and she was absolutely fuming at the university rightly so because we've we've seen the documents Phoebe asked for help she emailed the university she pretty much told them she was going to take her own life and they didn't reply and didn't get back to her and she was fuming her mum and she introduced me to a group of families that had all lost children at university devastating devastating devastating thing when university is meant to be this really happy time to lose your child at university it's just shocking it's awful so i got introduced to this group of families and they were just just so inspiring one of them was suing bristol university and subsequently won in that court case because their daughter died because the university hadn't made reasonable adjustments when they knew that it was causing the harm and we were together we called for a statutory duty of care and what essentially what that means is right now if anything happens to a university the relationship between you and the university as a student and a university is pretty much the same as like walking into tesco and buying a meal deal right it's like consumer buying a product or a service and there's nothing more and we know we can sit here and this feels like the elephant in a room when you're in these conversations but it's not like that no no no you're living in university accommodation you're 24 7 at university yes you're an adult so you should be treated like an adult but to just consider it like this complete you know also you're paying thousands of pounds to be there let's also add that into the equation it's not like you're they're doing you a favor it's such a good point so anyway that and and the idea that some people are so desperate support it's not there and and also actually to extend this conversation further there's a lot of sexual assault at university that's not dealt with because the university has absolutely no legal responsibility to do anything with that information because the duty of care doesn't exist between the university and its student so there's a whole host of reasons why the duty of care law should be in place in the same way that an employer has a duty of care to their staff right it makes so much sense yes so together with these families we went to parliament and spent a lot of time calling for it we did evidence hearings with select committees and And it did start a conversation, and as anyone out there has known, that's tried to get something done through government, it's a very, very slow process.

1:07:57I asked one of the civil servants, just as we were going into our evidence hearing, I was like, so how long do you think this will take? Because she does this all the time with these petitions. She's like, how long does this take? And she just went, nine years. And I was like, I love the honesty. Thanks. I was hoping like a week, ideally a week, two. Max. It was just how nonchalant. She was like, nine years. Nine years. I was like, all right, okay. So, yeah. So, any stuff like this is the long term. But it's got to be done. But it has to be done because, you know, it shouldn't be the case that someone goes to university and doesn't come home because of their mental health.

1:08:36And universities need to do better. And I think we need to have an adult, grown-up, mature conversation about the responsibility of unis towards their students. And at the moment, universities are acting in such an immature way. way are just basically going i'm not hearing you they're denying that suicides happen at universities they're denying that there's a responsibility i've had to my face when i was telling them about a student that died at university someone said oh but you do know the suicide rate in universities is actually lower than the general population and i was like congratulations what you know well done what do you mean to say you know that doesn't mean there's a there's not a problem to be fixed so anyway that's universities there's a lot of work that needs to do that but I do think it's an important conversation and those families are just just amazing yeah what brilliant families to be going I mean alongside the pain and the grief to be to be doing that oh god I I can't even deal with how much we've like looked at in this chat I have learned good I'm glad so much I'm glad so much I'm so grateful for you doing this podcast today I've learned so many things I really needed to hear.

1:09:45I think that this chat more than many others that I've done is going to really do something. You know, this is people can hear this and go, I've got someone in my life that I know is having a tough time. And I now know that I need to address it or approach it. And I'm going to get over the fear. And you've just talked about it in the most eloquent and brilliant way. and I just think what you're doing is so essential and so amazing and it's been an absolute honour to talk to you today. Ben, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It really means a lot to hear that as well. Oh God, thanks Ben.

1:10:25Thank you so much. I mean, personally, thank you. I learned so much. I know it's not easy for Ben to just keep talking about these heavy, heavy moments and going over it all, although he's choosing to and he wants to because he knows it's impactful but nonetheless still not necessarily easy so I'm very very grateful that Ben gave us his time you must follow Ben on Instagram because he's doing essential work in a brilliant way and I urge you to read Ben's book which oh god you know you probably heard me say in this chat was just quite game-changing and really tricky to read at times and really enlightening to read too it's called this book could save your life.

1:11:05If that chat resonated with you or any parts of it, I urge you to read it. Some other people who have talked really openly about turning the grief they've experienced into positive change, who have been on Happy Place, would be Ashley Kane on losing his daughter to leukemia. That was, I mean, that chat I think about all the time. I wept throughout the whole thing. It was very raw. It was very close to the time. And it was a really, really important chat. I mean, I don't think I even spoke in it, which I certainly didn't need to. It was just Ashley being brilliant. Richard E. Grant talked about the death of his wife beautifully not that long ago.

1:11:41And Roman Kemp was incredibly honest about the shame he felt in the aftermath of his friend's suicide. There'll be links to those episodes in the show notes. I know that you're going to have a lot to say after hearing this chat with Ben. So let's carry on talking on Instagram during the week. Our Instagram handle is at happyplaceofficial. all right until next week a huge thank you again to ben to the producer and at happy play studios and to you you gorgeous bunch

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