Tom and Giovanna Fletcher

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Today we're live from the Happy Place Festival in Chiswick and I'm chatting to some gorgeous friends of mine. It's Tom and Giovanna Fletcher. I hate when people say couple goals because you just don't know what's going on in anyone's life and you don't know what those ups and downs that someone's going through and I think being in a long-term relationship it's about knowing that you will go through phases where you might not like each other. But if that's because you've got young kids or something really stressful is going on at work like I know when I'm on a book deadline I don't realise that I've been a plonker until I press send on that book kind of going oh yeah and just realising that no one stays the same forever and that there will be ups and downs and there's just phases when we really love each other.

0:50I know they don't like the concept of couple goals but I think it's fair to say both independently and, as a couple, Tom and Gee have a lot of great stuff going for them. A founding member of McFly, Tom had written 10 UK number one singles by the age of 21. More recently, he's been getting words down to create best-selling children's books. His wife, Giovanna, is the creator and voice of brilliant podcast Happy Mum, Happy Baby, and has 12 books to her name too. and they write books together now as well. More on that dynamic and how it works a little bit later. I've known these guys for a very long time.

1:33I first met Tom right at the start of McFly. They would very often come onto the TV shows I was presenting on a Saturday morning, like Top of the Pop Saturday or I don't know what the other ones were, perhaps Smile on a Sunday as well. But I saw a hell of a lot of them over the years and then became really good friends with Giovanna as well. And I really love that we got to spend some time during this chat reminiscing about those early noughties years and some terrible fashion choices. What a time to be alive. But as much as a lot of this conversation was completely hilarious, I also found it really refreshing and totally reassuring too.

2:15And I think all of you lot in our Festival Talk Stage tent did too. to hear from Tom and Gee they're still just figuring all this relationship and life stuff out along the way it felt good to hear that just to give you a quick insight into my excited and slightly delirious state by this point of the festival this was the very last thing or the penultimate thing that I had to do over the weekend the weekend is so much fun for me I get to do several talks and sort of discussion sessions and I try and walk around to meet as many people there and also stallholders and brands that we've got going on.

2:55It's a bit like being at a wedding where I have to also do podcasts which is really really fun but also quite tiring in the best possible way. So by this point the Sunday afternoon I was all over the shop. I was very professional. I kept myself together, but I was up for a real good laugh. I was in a celebratory mood, as you will hear very shortly. And I was also getting ready to have a big old dance to Denise Van Outen's DJ set straight after this talk. So hopefully you'll feel boosted and in a good mood after hearing this very jolly chat. Right, let's do it. This is a fun one.

3:56First of all, happy birthday weekend. Thank you very much. Have a nice birthday. My birthday is tomorrow. I thought it was Friday. No. Oh, shit, research already. Terrible research, Deb. I was talking before we came out about how good your research looks. It's all wrong. It's just incorrect. No, it's tomorrow. Tomorrow, right? Are you doing anything? I'm working. Great. Standard, classic. Well, I say work. It's not really work, but I'm not partying. Great. Well, I'm so grateful that you are both here to stay at the Happy Place Festival. I mean, you guys couldn't be more Happy Place if you tried.

4:30I feel like you really... That's really putting the pressure on. Oh, yeah. You've just got to be really happy now. I've come dressed as you. I know. Look at us. And your sofa. You and your sofa together. That is why I've come to it. Oh, I love it. I'm here for it. I'm truly grateful. And I'm really grateful because we've managed to pin you both down, which is wild considering your schedules, considering how multi-talented you both are and the fact that you share threesomes. It's crazy. So well done. You've met them. You know how crazy it is. Oh, I love it. Quite rare, though. It is rare for us to get time together.

5:05This is almost a date. It is. This is a date night, a birthday date night. This is my birthday celebration. Really intimate little date night. Don't mind that. We'll just sit and watch you guys. It's that thing, though, when you have a date with your partner and you haven't seen them much because you've got a family or you're busy at work, you go, oh, God, I've got nothing to talk about. Or you just talk about, like, schedules and logistics. Yeah, we'll just look at pictures of the kids. I can remember years ago being out I think we were on holiday and do you remember the couple next to us who literally sat every night and they didn't say a word to each other do you remember and that's my fear is us just going to dinner and just having nothing to say quite bleak I think maybe that is us maybe that's maybe that's something nice it's just like being comfortable in the silence yeah you don't expect anything of each other just be just be silence the conclusion is either we either don't talk to each other or do there's no wrong you know when you get to the end of the day sometimes where you're touched out and you're arsed out you're done and I think sometimes it is nice to sit on a sofa next to someone if your toes touch that's great but no more that is quite frankly enough I agree that is quite frankly more than enough you're lucky Tom Remember how lucky you are He's happy if I've had time to moisturise them Otherwise not You moisturise his feet Oh What?

6:44Come on, that was like 20 years ago Even then That never happened He has never moisturised my feet This is for the record I don't think I have Could this be like a new birthday thing? No Should we try it now? there's so much moisturizer moisturizer to the stage please I love it I love it but it's brilliant and it's super impressive because knowing you guys personally as well and how hard you work and how much you care about what you do as well as parenting it's no mean feat and I wonder how do you manage it how do you communicate amongst yourselves to decide who's working when who gets the time to be creative How does that work?

7:30The truth is, we are terrible at communicating that. We're really bad, and it becomes really stressful. Yeah. Well, we had a time, like, literally three weeks ago, a month ago, where I was on a copyfield trek, which had been in the diary for a year, and Tom's album was out. Oh. I was like, that is in your diary. Yeah, but I can't just... This is the conversations we have. I release albums, like, once every... Well, I think it was like a 10-year gap between albums. Yeah, 2020. Come on. Well, that was really bad timing then. Terrible timing. Ten years to release it, and you did it the same week as G's Tread.

8:07But I don't decide it. It's like, you know, there's a record label and a band. There are other people in the equation. There are things that happen. Sometimes it just clashes, and it's a good support team is the most important thing I think that we have. Like, your mum and dad are incredible. but we live in a last minute like crazy stressful who's where are you going today what you're doing this week how are we going to do the school drop-offs okay you do this one we're planning it day by day we're completely disorganized so don't like there's if there's an illusion that we have this all figured out and it's like this dreamy you know perfect scheduling that it does not exist in our lives like and we always say oh we should really you know plan out what we're going to do when you know i'm on tour later on in the year we won't do it i won't do it we're going to get two weeks before the tour be like oh yeah how are we going to pick up the kids this day how are you yeah so it's complete chaos but it's really good to hear because i think we all assume other parents are just nailing it and they've got it all sorted so to hear that things can be messy and things are chaotic is really good three kids in i think that has that has definitely gone well Well, actually, so also our kids are the sort where when we pick them up, they just chuck all of their stuff at us.

9:21Yeah. So we are really those parents who look a little bit dishevelled leaving the school, like dropping bags. To the point where Tom wanted to get one of those trolleys. Oh, yeah. You know the beach trolleys that, you know, really organised parents have when they go to the beach? No, yeah, but you don't take the heat stalls. You need one for the school run. We do have three kids. The amount of stuff the kids have to go into school. Sports bags, the instruments. Oh, that's quite practical. Yeah, it's a great idea. I don't know why all parents don't have a school run trolley. They should just rebrand it.

9:49That's definitely what someone should do. Just rebrand. You do it. You heard it here. This was my idea. If someone does the school run trolley, I want credit on that at least. You can even have a little seat on the back. Save yourself some cash and use a wheelbarrow. There you go. There we go. That's practical. That works. Absolutely. Love it. You want us to go back on topic? No. I don't care at this point. I'm nearly done. I'm just thinking about dancing to Denise Van Alten a bit later. It's also really complicated because not only are you self-employed and your jobs are varied and there are multiple jobs, but also they're usually extremely creative.

10:26And sometimes I think we put the expectation probably on ourselves or we assume that other people that have creative hobbies or creative jobs have got this sort of luxury of time to think through ideas and work on them methodically. and that isn't the case. I think certainly having kids means that that creative time gets narrower and narrower. Has that made you more focused or not? Definitely made you more focused. Yeah, I think just out of necessity. I'm so lucky I have my band and I write kids books and I'm working on a few other projects, like musical projects, which I write for. And I think just out of necessity, I have to maximize every second that I have.

11:07I mean, literally, so I write a lot. luckily I enjoy writing when I'm like in a car so I'll do the school run, drop the kids off and like that half an hour when I drive home I will do most of my writing. What? How? I'm a really good driver first of all I'm a responsible driver. I imagine it's like a pen and padlet. No but just singing or just speaking out loud like even the way here he was humming and I thought that he's not just humming a tune he's writing while he's he's writing the next McFly hit that's what he's doing called Happy Plane Yeah, so it's just out of the set. I think grabbing those little moments.

11:42But also my mind doesn't work in that way where it's like, oh, at 10 o 'clock today you're going to this studio and from 10 to 6 you're going to write a song. My brain goes, no, you're not. But that half an hour when I'm driving on the school run, I think my logical brain is safely driving the car and the creative part of my brain can write a song. How interesting. And I'm always really impressed with both of you that you seem to be able to work at night and that is not something I've mastered. My brain absolutely just, the cogs stopped turning it about, I mean, if I'm honest, about four. But like really at eight, I'm like, my brain does not work after that creatively or in any way.

12:20But you are using those night times when the kids are in bed to write books and songs. I don't know how you're doing that. The trick is that little cat nap. So basically when the kids say, lie down next to me, you're like, okay. I do that every night. Yeah, just to sleep. I'll have a little cheeky nap I'll wake up and go oh no I need to carry on and that is enough to kind of get you motivated and get you working again yeah the struggle is that cat nap not being like four hours long oh the amount of times I go in and I'll play I'll like move Tom's foot his feet again and I'll go honey my moisturised feet it's nine o 'clock you know and he'll be like it's literally like a teenager and I'll be like well what do I you're an adult no I'm done for the night yeah he's done There's a limit.

13:06I'm like, no, I'm sleeping in here. Yeah, bye. Night. That's incredible. And, I mean, I was trying to think when we met, but we've known each other a hell of a long time now. I remember the first time McFly came on to Top of the Pop Saturday. I don't know what year that would have been. What was your first single release? Well, it would have been 2004, probably. Wow. I mean, I didn't take the time to Google that footage, but I'm imagining we all had questionable haircuts. Terrible haircuts. Jordan, something great. In the McFly studio, we've got all of our Top of the Pops covers in the toilets.

13:39There's all these brilliant pictures of Fern just dotted around Top of the Pops magazine. Awful hair. Yeah. No, yours was nowhere near as bad as that. Oh, no, it was. I did this thing where I tried to copy. I don't know if any of you remember the era where there were the John Frieda twins, beautiful blonde twins. They did all the John Frieda campaigns. One had like a shaggy bob and one had just like sort of a shaggy crop. and I was like, that is the haircut for me. And I had it and I looked like Rod Stewart. It missed the mark so bad. It's like, oh, I don't have her face. That's why the hair didn't work.

14:15But that era was, I mean, it was early noughties. Everyone had sort of very feathery hair. It was a terrible time. It was a really like, no one really knew what we were doing. No. It was before indie fashion really came in. So it was like between skater, you know, we had like baggy trousers with our bums out. The bums, it was awful. Literally, they're boxes. They had boxes on, but the belt of their trousers would sit below their buttcheeks. And, you know, I just wanted to go around all the time picking them up. It was so weird. They'd have to waddle. You'd waddle. It was a skill, walking with those trousers and not falling down.

14:52It was a talent. It was an absolutely wild time. But they weren't even nice boxes. No. They were like... No, I remember because we all lived in the band house which was a complete, you know. No one did any washing. It was, yeah, it was disgusting. It was exactly what you think a bunch of 17, 18-year-olds living together is like. So we never washed our clothes, but we realised you could buy, this is terrible for, like, fast fashion, by the way, but we just bought new boxes. It was 20 years ago. You're forgiven. Yeah, we weren't woke then. No. We just would buy new boxes. We just had these, the cheapest boxes, which would balloon up, like, out the tops of our trousers, like muffins.

15:26Like, we'd risen. But they weren't even sexy boxes on there. No, not like sexy Calvin. It was a practical thing meshed with weird noughties fashion. The very impressive thing about McFly, there's many impressive things, but you guys have always, you've worked super hard, you've always kept them momentum up alongside all of your other various projects, and you're still boshing out hits, and you've still got a massive fan base. Yes. Thank you, guys. Thank you. And it's not an easy thing. Thanks, Mum. But it's really not an easy thing to do because obviously when I was on Top of the Pops or Radio 1, and you see bands come and go.

16:02And I read a really brilliant interview the other day with you guys, and there'd been a very, again, noughties reference to Pigeon Detectives and said, oh, McFly, whatever. And then Harry had said something like, well, you, Pigeon Detectives, where are you now? Because you guys have stood the test of time. What do you, outside of hard work, which obviously you've all really put the legwork in, what is the secret to you guys sticking about? um so much luck i think we you know we were in the apart from working hard there are so many incredibly talented musicians who work hard that don't get the breaks that we had we were so lucky that we that busted it kind of paved the way for us and we're able to break there was still shows like top of the pop saturday and uh we had a tiny window of time where we could have secured our fan base and we were so lucky to do it and thankfully those fans have stayed with us for 20 years.

16:54And so much of what we do now is thanks to them still coming to see us, bringing their kids along to those shows now. Working hard, of course, you have to work hard. But the fact that we love what we do and we are best mates. Well, we're not best mates. We're like brothers. We fight like brothers. We bicker like brothers. And we love each other like brothers. It's a real family. McFly is a family. It's not just the four of us. It's our actual families, extended families, the fans, the team that work with us. We've been so lucky. and yes there's so much of it is there are so many variables and I think we it could have gone any other like it's so easy for it to not happen the way it did and I wouldn't change anything like we've had so many ups and downs along the way but that's all led us to be still being here 20 years on and we love it even more now you know I think that's that we look at we get on stage like over the summer we do these shows we do like you know festivals and race course events and stuff and we love every second of being on stage like when there's a weekend like this weekend we don't have a show it feels like a bit of you's a bit empty it's like oh i'm not with my brothers during what we're you know what we're with your family and with the actual family yeah a bit empty

18:06that's not what i meant it's all coming out it's all coming out um remember right we know this is your little date. Yes. Sorry, sorry. So, room in it. A second time later. Fine, fine. Don't mess up your date, Tom. Talking of Busted, we did this, should we call it a documentary? We did a documentary, where I followed you and Busted around. Yeah, McBusted, Dave. And this was just after, you had just had a baby. Yes. When old was this? Buzz. Buzz. Oh, my God, it was Buzz. Literally, he was born while we were doing the documentary. Yes. So, there was a day, I was meant to come and meet you somewhere to do a day's filming and I couldn't because we were at the hospital and you'd given birth and yeah, so it was literally right in the middle of all that.

18:48Sorry for the meantime. No, but that, so I remember you being in the house at one point and you were feeding and it was just like, oh, we were in the house. I felt quite bad. Like, oh my God, we brought a whole crew to your house. It was a wild time. Can I just say, I've just remembered something that happened. So we were. Oh, this sounds naughty. Well, because Buzz came a little bit early. It was like two weeks early. Right. And so I, you know, we knew you were in labor and so I just, I text our manager just to say, just to let you know, Jovanna's gone into labour so I'm not going to be around and he was like, so you know you're filming this show with Fern do you think we should let them know if they wanted to come down to the hospital?

19:25And I was like what do you mean to film the birth? I was like I think probably no we'll just keep this to us, isn't it? Oh my god Sorry you weren't invited to the birth No, I understand No offence taken. Otherwise, I would have been, come on. Babe, like, I love you, but I don't know if that would have been appropriate. I don't think it's quite what you expect from a book busted documentary turning into this childbirth documentary. Wow, but I love that you set the boundary and you said, I'm afraid not. Yeah, it's like, no, it's hard saying no, but I didn't stress you out with that while you were in labour as well.

20:05I was having a contraction. Should I suggest that? No, I'm going to take my initiative here. Use my discipline and say, probably not. Well done. Well done, Tom. Well, I had to do something, you know, make yourself useful. Exactly. Very good executive decision. It was actually a very impactful moment for me, and I've talked to both of you about this, because at that time, I had probably a little, I don't know, maybe a few, it could have been a year or a couple of years, had come off antidepressants, and I hadn't talked publicly or really to many people that I've been on them or that I'd had anything going on mentally.

20:38and we had a really great chat in your house about your mental health and bipolar and antidepressants and I was sat there in awe of how you were talking about it just really normally it wasn't a big deal for you to talk about I mean I know it was a big deal but it wasn't like you were making some huge thing up you're just talking about it really in a grounded way and I kind of went home and went oh my god why am I kind of keeping all this a secret even to people in my close family circle. And it made it, I mean, I told you I think about it not long after it had a huge impact on me and has really led me to talk about it, you know, very publicly and write about it.

21:19And so, yeah, this is all about you here, Tom. Obviously, this is why I've done it because you gave me the permission to speak out loud. But it was a real turning point. It was a real pivotal moment. It was incredible to, yeah, to just hear you talk about it so freely. how how do you feel mentally today do you still have big ups and downs how do you manage your mental health yeah i still like to definitely have you know moments where i really struggle and um it's definitely easy to make so much easier to manage now that you can kind of talk more openly about it because actually like and it's amazing to hear that actually fun so thank you personally like it's amazing to hear that speaking about it and having conversations does have an impact and I know that firsthand because I only I watched Stephen Fry's documentary and stumbled upon it by pure coincidence in a time when I was really struggling and I was it was this light bulb moment of that is someone describing my brain what everything he was saying it was like he was speaking about my the way my the way I am and so if he hadn't have had that conversation publicly I would never have really reached out and started having those conversations myself so it's so important that it becomes just something we can talk about openly um it's why you know everything you're doing is so incredible and so important and a big part of it as well was like my bandmates just being open and talking about their struggles you know it's a time when a lot of us were going through some some rough times and i think it was just the time when we started talking to each other about the way we were feeling and before that we were you know pretty stereotypical for a group of guys we had didn't really tell each other how we felt and the stuff was that was going on and yeah it was just a turning point where we're all like actually I'm really struggling we need to talk to each other about this and help each other out and get through it and I think that's why I was able to talk openly you know with you and or just talk openly you know in public about it realizing actually we have this amazing platform I'm got myself into a good place and felt like you know what why not talk about it's not something to be embarrassed about we all go through it we all go through some you know degree of mental health And so, yeah, the more we can share and talk about it, it's such an important, brilliant thing to be doing.

23:25So to answer your question, yeah, I still absolutely, I don't have it all figured out. And I still go through times when I struggle. But, you know, it's just you take it as it comes, I think. I take it as it comes. Are you pretty good at sensing when each other are having a tougher time or in a bad space? Can you pick up on that pretty well? I think so. Yeah, I guess. I think you do. I think there's maybe like an more, I think. well firstly we've got a slightly unusual relationship where we have known each other since we were 13. So a lot of it is probably just unspoken where you don't need to say you don't need to say it.

23:56You can just pick up on it because yeah we've known each other for forever. I guess you know maybe you don't have that not many people have that with their partner but maybe has a friend who is that person who you're just in tune with on a level where you don't need to say it you don't need to have the conversation you can just pick up on it and you know how to deal with it. I think we probably have it like that. We don't really sit down and have conversations about how... We don't have time to sit down and have conversations. We don't sit down and talk about anything, let alone mental health.

24:22But, yeah, we're definitely aware of each other's feelings and how we're... when we're going through ups and downs, I think. Yeah. And let's talk about your incredibly long and beautiful relationship because you met at school. Yeah, at 13. You proposed to Giovanna back at the school, which was the most romantic thing ever. I came to your glorious wedding, which everyone was weeping. You did the song. I mean, the whole thing was just gorgeous. And this is almost a cliche question, but I think it's still really worth asking. Because I think everyone out there, whether they're in a relationship or not, or have had relationships in the past, we're all trying to find a good way to navigate relationships and a good way to keep them, even if it's friendships, to keep them on track and to keep them really, really healthy.

25:10be so what is there a key to it for you guys I think personally awareness is a massive thing like know when you're being an idiot like know when you are taken out on that person know when you're oh and just just just be self-aware is one thing I think that's really really important and know that I mean it's very easy I hate when people say couple goals because you just don't know what's going on in anyone's life and you don't know what those ups and downs that someone's going through and I think being in a long-term relationship it's about knowing that you will go through phases where you might not like each other you know what I mean you're gonna for whatever reason maybe what this is news there have been times um but if that's because you've got young kids or something really stressful is going on at work like I know when I'm on a book deadline I don't realize that I've been a plonker until I press send on that book and I'm like I can dance from the ceiling and I just realised how fat I have been through the writing process.

26:12So if you read one of my books, just imagine me. Yeah, think of me. Awesome. But it's that thing, it's kind of going, oh yeah, and just realising that no one stays the same forever and that there will be ups and downs and yeah, there's just phases, I would say. There are phases when we really love each other. Yeah. When are we getting into that phase? but also like i think it's like we like god we don't have it all figured out at all like we just we're like it's one of those interesting things being like being in the public eye what people see and what you put up you know it's like you know instagram and social media is it's like a photo album you don't well actually it's become better people are much better at sharing rough times and tough times you're really good at it like it's about talking about it openly but most of the time you're putting up like what you would put in your photo album and it's like oh the family holiday or this amazing day that you've just had or this really nice meal you've just cooked or your cat or something you know you know so that is what people and so it's really easy to say couple goals oh yeah you know they're doing this lovely podcast today with each other and um but actually you know we absolutely don't have it figured out we go through everything you know like anyone going through a long-term relationship in any relationship a long-term friendship go through like really tough times and you have to figure especially when you have kids and busy lives and life you know life had been getting in the way of stuff it's really difficult and you know it's really easy to i hate giving advice on it because it just feel like oh like when was the last date night we had i can't even remember the last time we went out yeah now right now yeah but we don't like we just it's really um we don't have it figured out at all we're just kind of winging it and figuring out as we go along it's only when you stop and think oh yeah we should probably have a date night soon and you know probably moisturize my feet again Matt Evanson had told us this thing once where he was doing like an alphabet dating.

28:01What? So he'd start on A. So one of you takes A. And so then the one person has to, so everything you do that day has to start with an A. So you're in charge of your A date. The next person takes the B date. So everything starts, so A. What might you do for A? This is such a palaver. No, no, it makes it really fun because you have to think outside the box. We got to B and had a baby. And we're like, all right. that's a big one it's a big me yeah but yeah we're a bit rubbish yeah we're ready for the sea yeah after 10 years let's go on a sea day you're going to a cattery very good that's great but I would say for us laughter is a massive thing yeah still now after 25 years of knowing each other if I do something that makes Tom laugh I'm like yeah it's so important humour I think in all areas because life is ridiculous yes Life is so ridiculous.

28:56And I think, and that's one thing with the podcast, I realised that if we can poke fun a little bit at the ridiculousness of every day, the things that we get stressed about that we really don't need to get stressed about, then that makes it so much easier to get through. It's really important. And I always love it whenever we bring humour into the sort of wellbeing conversation because it's not necessarily, I mean, we have laughing yoga at the festival, which is one of the funniest things you've ever seen. And even watching it, you start, But it's contagious. You start laughing and then you sort of can't stop.

29:27It's very important to bring humour into the equation, whether it's cultivating laughter where you can, trying to find funny moments, but also, like you say, a perspective shift of seeing something with humour. We had this wonderful activist and model on the podcast recently, Fats Timbo. I don't know if any of you heard that episode. And Fats has been really brought up with humour in mind in her family. So, for instance, they went away as a family on holiday to Tenerife. They were at the airport about to come home. And at the check-in, the check-in assistant said, your flight left yesterday. And for me, I would be catatonic with stress.

30:09I would be blaming Jessie. For sure. It's your fault. You did not look. I'd be shouting, having a tantrum. They all just broke into laughter. And they couldn't stop laughing. They were like wheezing, holding their tummies. And I thought, what a wonderful way to turn stress on its head. And stress is a huge problem when it comes to our well-being. So I think humour is really, really important. How funny is it to write books together? Yeah, that's quite hard to see the funny side sometimes. I remember, so we did this big Penguin book event, and the CEO sat down with us to interview us. It was pitching to the whole of Penguin about what was coming up.

30:49and he opened by saying, thank you so much for sharing your divorce with us. I'm like, great. Oh my God. I don't think we'd written the first book then either. No. We've written two now. There's a trilogy. Don't ever sign up to a trilogy. Right. Because I feel it every time someone goes to win. The next book I'm like, yeah. You started it? We know. Well, we started planning it, not actually writing it. The thing is, what's really frustrating is that we planned the whole trilogy. We know how it ends. We've got like the last line. We've just got to get there. We've just got to get there. Yeah. So we obviously want to do it.

31:25It feels like this really like thing we haven't achieved. But no, obviously I'm used to collaborating with writing. So I do it with my band all the time. So it's something that we'd never done with each other before. So it's a completely new experience. Like writing with, we both wrote books on paper. It's like, yeah, we should just write a book with each other. This would be easy. But then realising, oh, no, actually, this is really hard. Writing a novel or writing a trilogy of novels together is a really challenging thing to do. But, no, I mean, we both love it. It's just finding time to finish it.

31:58Also, when you're writing, you know, you go through so many different stages. Like, you start thinking this is the best idea ever. It's going to be amazing. Then you start writing, you go, oh, I'm not sure. Then you're like, oh, this is rubbish. This is the worst thing I've ever written. and it's at that point that you've got to hand it over to the other person and go, you know what I mean? Good luck. So is that how you do it? You'll write a section, you'll hand the book to Tom? So we take different characters. So I write Eve, Tom writes Bram. So we spend a lot of time planning, more so than I had ever at that point.

32:31So with my books, I write my own. I usually know what my first third's going to be. I know what my concept is and then I just, I know where I want to end but I just let my characters fly and really enjoy that. I think it's the actor in me, that improvisation. I love that. Whereas when you're writing with someone else, you've really got to plan what's happening so that you both know what book you're making. Yeah. They're like, they died? What? Lots of it. Yeah, so we spent a lot of time, and I was really worried about that because for me, it's like, so growing up when I used to play with my Barbies or dolls or whatever, I can remember acting all out while I was setting up.

33:05And then I'd get to, I'd be ready to actually play. And I'd be like, but I've done it now. I've had all the conversations, and I didn't want planning to be like that. I didn't want to have seen it all and then be like, well, I don't want to tell that story because I've done it and I'm bored of it. I get it. But it was actually really good doing that together because we're actually, that bouncing off of each other is really, really fun. There were times it's really hard having someone go, oh, no, no, no. That is not good. And there was one time where you told me I'd gone too far. Yeah. I'd taken something too far.

33:38And I was like, okay. Guess who wrote it in the next chapter for his... Oh, that is so sneaky. Yeah. What a shock. I think, no, it's just a realisation. No, it's a compliment, because what I realised was, actually, it was a really good idea, but it just belonged in my chapter. The funny thing is, then the editors got it, and they were like, too far. Yeah. We were like, yeah, we thought so. It was edited out eventually, so I was right. You won. You win. Do you egg each other on creatively, even outside of books? Because you're both working, you're polymaths, You're working in so many different areas of your life.

34:10Do you feel inspired by each other? I think the thing that I'm finding now is because I've just sort of pushed back a little bit or something and it means that I've got so much going on still, but there is this void. And I do feel like looking at Tom, it makes me go, I'm not being as productive as I could be. I know I'm spinning so many plates. I know it would push me over the edge if I was to take on anything else. But I do think looking at what... You know how sometimes there's that person on Instagram that you look at and go, oh, they're doing that. I wish I was doing that. I kind of just look at Tom and his little writing stuff and go, I wish I was doing that.

34:43So I do think there's that. Yeah, I think we totally like inspired each other. Like I was, it was only when you really started writing novels that I was like, I really want to write a novel. I was writing picture books. I was like, I want to do that. And I kept annoying Jovanna because I kept telling her that. And she just got to a point where she's like, will you just write one then? Yeah, just do it. And how many books have you done between you now? Is that even, can you calculate that? 12 and you've done ridiculous now. I don't know, yeah, 25 or something? What? Something like that, yeah. Oh, my God.

35:13I mean, do you ever sit back and look at that pile of books and go, I did that, I wrote that? Yeah, on World Book Day. World Book Day. Yeah, correct. We did that one. I'm feeling a bit like I'm not being productive. You've written all these words. Yes, it's good. No, but there's that thing of like this massive, I have massive imposter syndrome where you just think, like I'm going to be, I don't know how to do any of the things I do. No. I'm such an average guitarist. if someone said to me how do you write a song I don't know I just sit down and it's like I have no idea and I freak out when I have you know I've got I'm I'm in a workshop this week for a show I'm working on and I haven't written the songs properly for it yet I don't really know how I just turn up and think I don't know what I'm doing I'm gonna get found out one day and they're gonna fire me from all these things and they're gonna drop me from my publisher because I don't know what I'm doing I think we all feel like that and it's really good to admit because we have so many people on the podcast or people interacting on Instagram saying I've got such bad imposter syndrome I've been promoted or I'm running my own company.

36:09And I think it's really good to safely say everybody has it. And we just need to push through it and know that we're enough and that we're doing enough. But I think knowing that we're all dealing with it is really positive. Giovanna, obviously, you've got your own brilliantly successful podcast and you interview so many wonderful people. is there any one nugget or something that's really stuck with you in terms of parenting or i think there's an overriding theme of everyone just making it up as they go along no one really feeling like they've got it sussed um and that we're all just trying our best whatever that looks like um i think so often we can look to other people and kind of go i wish we were living life like that or in terms of kids like i wish i could parent in that way but you don't know what's going on at home.

37:00Like our kids are wild. And I don't know, maybe that's changed my perception. I think maybe if we had quite a kid, I would look at parenting in a different way. I just think it's just a whirlwind, a total whirlwind. And I think it's to trust that you're doing the way that works for you. Because I read all the books before becoming a mum. Every single one that's out there, I'd read it. And I thought when Buzz came into the world, I was going to have it sussed. He hadn't read any of the freaking book. So, you know, I know, so inconsiderate. I was like, but you're meant to be doing this. And so it just, I think, so for the first little while, I was constantly just trying to second guess everything or taking on all the advice, the advice from the book, the advice from Joan down the road.

37:48Peter in the supermarket, you told me how to breastfeed, whatever it is. Peter, what do you know? No, for all these different things that come at you and you're just kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that because that'll make me a good mum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. And then actually it takes forever for you to kind of go, sod that. I'm not, I have to just listen to what I think and to the baby in front of me. And I think that takes such a long time to do. I still think now that they're getting older, the things that pop up are different and they're more challenging than what they were when they were newborn.

38:18But the newborn phase just felt so massive. Yeah, so my whole thing, I think, in parenting and the podcast is just to keep scooping each other up and knowing that we're all just trying, you know. And sometimes you might feel like you're not trying your best, but you tried. And sometimes you go to bed and you feel like, I've messed up that day royally, and that is okay too. Because I think it's Scarlett O 'Hara who says, tomorrow's another day. I don't know, I think it's a Gone with the Wind reference. She said something like that. And I think it is that. It's kind of drawing a line under each day and going, tomorrow's a new effort.

38:50Yeah, I love Mum, Happy Baby. It's just brilliant, and it's a great resource for anyone navigating parenting and dealing with the mess of life, being a parent. I think it's such an honour, though. Whenever you've got someone on, they open up to that side of them. It's such an honour to have that person come on and just share their words. And especially when it comes to mental health and parenthood, I think it's so raw. Do you know what I mean? To so many people, to share that part of them is something that I never take for granted. Also, I think, especially with parenting, probably unlike... I mean, there's judgement with many areas of life.

39:24I think the parenting, judgment is so huge. And usually it comes from a place of you want to one-up someone else. Like, well, my kid doesn't do that. I never did that. But actually, we're all in it together. There's, you know, like you said, there's road bumps. There's good days, bad days. But it just seems like there's so much judgment on decisions that you're making that should come from your gut. I always think, though, with things like that, the people like the Jones and the Peters. I don't know why I pick those names. I always say Joan and Tom's name is called Don. I don't know why I say that.

39:52but I think the thing is that they have been there and that they've gone through all the things and they found the thing that works for them this is how I reason it in my head so they've done all that they've done all the sleepless nights they've done the feeling of being out of your depth and they get there and they want to share that because they've been there and they've done it but they've landed on that thing because that's what works for them and their baby I don't I have to tell myself they don't do it out of malice they do it because they're trying to give you a shortcut but their shortcut is going to a different place that you need to get to so that's how I sort of stay in my brain I also think when people give advice it's often due to nostalgia they want to kind of like go back there and part of them likes to recall it and say oh well I remember when we did this and like you say there's no malice there it's just kind of they're recalling it and yeah they think it might be helpful I heard something really cool the other day I can't even think he's on with this but to only ever ask two people for advice So pick two people that you really know are going to give you advice that isn't loaded, isn't going to damage you more, isn't going to be self-reflective for them.

40:54They're genuinely people that see you and get you and want you to do well and to be okay. And to always go back to, obviously, you need to check in with them that it's okay. But to go back to those two people, because when we start asking everyone, oh, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? You are overwhelmed, bombarded. It's all too much. and you actually just go, I don't want to do any of it. I'm just going to kind of crack on and see what happens. So only two people. That's what I heard. I'm going to put it into practice, see if it works. That's good advice. Does that make you one of our people?

41:26I'm here for it. When it's a book thing... I have no advice, but I'm here for it. If it's a book thing and I go to Tom, he always tries to kill off my characters. Tom, what's going on here? Are you sabotaging Joanna's writing? Why is there a theme? Yeah, I don't know why. I think, no, whatever. it was a couple of times and I think it probably would have been I stopped asking because we were coming death wow very short book where the character dies chapter one they died done that's because you want to get back to the trilogy exactly now let's try this book exactly well look we're so excited about the third book don't expect it look find something else to read before then we haven't started it yet we have some recommendations it's coming soon-ish yeah no exact date but also just to see what else you come up with because you're constantly acting on stage, doing tours, working on films.

42:16And it's just really exciting as a friend to see how many brilliant things you're doing. And I'm just so grateful that you are here at the Happy Place Festival today. What a joy, what an honour. Please give it up for Tom and Giovanna Fletcher. Thank you very much. Well, I, for one, am very much looking forward to that next book. As and when it is ready, guys, no rush. You are very busy people. You definitely keep us on our toes and you keep us wanting more. Thank you so much, Tom and G, for being such a beautiful part of the festival. It was really, really special having you there. And it was really special having you there.

42:56It was amazing getting to meet so many of you, hugging so many of you, hearing so many brilliant life stories in one weekend. And look, we're doing it all over again very soon at Tatton Park on the 2nd and 3rd of September. Oh, and also do listen to that episode with Fat Timbo that I mentioned if you haven't already heard her tell that brilliant story about her and her family at the airport. It's hilarious. I felt stressed still, her telling that story, but she just tells it beautifully, so do go give that episode a listen. Right then, back here next week. Until then, huge, huge thank you to Tom and Giovanna, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio, and to you, I bloody love you.

44:04Thank you.