Tulisa: Abundance mindset, court cases, and hobbit holes

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps you create your own happiness. Today, I'm chatting to Talisa. It was just too much. I felt too much pressure, too judged by everyone. And I'm a very sensitive individual. Emotionally, I'm like a sponge, so I could feel the dislike at times. I could feel the hate from people. And it made me feel very low, very depressed. And I just felt like this isn't a life I want to live. So it gave me more the feeling of, right, it's me against the world now. Rather than letting it sink into me and how I view myself, I just projected it back on them and was just kind of in angry mode to survive.

0:43Guys, how's your week been? I hope that you're all well. I'm good, bar I've got a small injury. And I haven't had an injury. I've been very lucky. I haven't had an injury in a very long time, probably since I was a kid. But I was playing football with my son last night and we decided to play. Never do this. It's a stupid idea. Decided to play football with our shoes off. And I went to tackle him. I get quite competitive. And I sort of stomped on his leg. It sounds like he might have come out of that worse than me. But oh, no, he's fine. He had a small bruise. My foot is absolutely screwed. I barely slept last night because it was throbbing with pain.

1:27I sound dramatic, but honestly, I haven't felt pain like it in a long time. And I'm hobbling around today, trying to get things done, trying to get the kids into school on time, yada yada, with this stupid foot. So my motto, my new motto, my mantra for the day is don't play football without shoes on. It's a stupid idea. Anyway, I'm going to talk to myself nicely. Poor foot, poor me. It's all good. I'm going to be OK. I'm going to talk to myself kindly. because those themes yet again crop up in today's episode. So as I said, I'm chatting to brilliant Talisa, who I've seen on off over the last probably 15 years and has always been so lovely to meet up with.

2:13Talisa was born in Camden and raised in a family where music ran really deep. And you'll hear more about the origins of N-dubs in just a bit. But her career as an artist has been absolutely huge and she's become a real household name. Probably that all started after she was a judge on The X Factor. But behind the scenes, and in fact often absolutely centre stage, she has had to deal with an unbelievable amount of shit from the public and also from people in the industry. This chat, I needed this chat. Sometimes I walk away going, well, that was for me a therapy session. Talisa in this chat, I mean, her wisdom is a really hard one.

2:55But let me tell you, it is solid as a rock. I came away from this podcast thinking about so many things in my life differently. Narratives that I get hooked into where I think, oh God, everything's going wrong or I don't like this about my life. It totally gave me a new perspective. One of the things that I found so impressive about Talisa in this chat is that we touched on some things that she's been through that were really hard, like really awful and really public. And she talks about how at first she felt a lot of anger, which is obviously a really natural and often quite a healthy reaction to horrible situations.

3:35But now she's really turned that anger on its head and she's found real peace, actually. She's found real peace. She's managed to rise above a lot of it and feel true happiness, but like her own bespoke happiness, not a happiness that anyone else is prescribing. You know, the kind I'm talking about is she's, it's not, oh, I'm now on the biggest TV show. I can be happy. It's happiness on her terms. And I really, really love that. And you know, the most impressive thing, the fact that she does not care what people think about her anymore. Oh, what I would do to get to that place. I will one day, I'm definitely climbing the ladder.

4:15I'm definitely a lot further down the line than I was maybe 10 years ago. But she's nailed it. She's doing it. Again, probably born out of necessity. But if that's something you have trouble with, worrying about what everyone thinks of you the whole time, you need to listen in for this chat. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork.

4:53Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Suffering from dry, tired, irritated eyes? Don't let dry eyes win. Use Sustain Pro. It hydrates, restores, and protects dry eyes for up to 12 hours. Sustain Pro. Triple action dry eye relief.

5:17Right, here we go. This is the show.

5:40I mean, we used to see each other quite frequently and I haven't seen you for years and years But I used to see you on Top of the Pops or interview you for different things. It's so good to see you again. So good to see you too. You're looking amazing. And are you. Thank you. Now, when you look back over this crazy rollercoaster career that you've had, from I guess when N-Dubs went mainstream, how does it feel to look back on that sort of 15-year period? Oh, God, it's a broad question, isn't it? There's a million different emotions, so many different parts of the journey. in total right now um just blessed blessed to have all the experiences that i've had um and to be in the place that i'm in now i guess that's so good to hear because when i've been sort of either watching what you've been going through or certainly before today just having a rummage around in your life you've lived about 10 lives in one life it seems does it feel that way i agree 100 that's what i feel like i've crammed in just as much life experience as I possibly can into one.

6:47But how brilliant that you're at a place where you feel, do you say at peace? A hundred percent. How amazing. Yeah, a hundred percent. Because I think when people have been through stuff, I've been through a whole heap of shit, it can be really hard to land on peace. You can have resentment, you can have anger. There's a whole bunch of emotion that comes with going through drama and trauma and really difficult times. But you're at a place where you feel good. Yeah, really good. I would say just recently, maybe in the past year is when I really feel that I'm at the point that I've been hoping to get to and working towards getting to, where just let a lot of things go, you know, from the past.

7:33And I'm just very much in the moment. My motto at the minute is just, just be. And is that, have you done therapy or how have you got to that place of feeling good? Really? Self-analyzing, self-therapy. And I feel like a lot of the time we really do create our own happiness. So looking into my own life, what are the things I can do to make myself happier? What connections are not serving me? What habits need to be kicked? What do I need to do more of? And yeah, I've just been active. I'd say like for the past three years, I've really been working towards getting my peace and creating the life that I want to be in and want to live.

8:08and I've kind of just got there. So now it's honeymoon period with myself. Yes, I love that. It's nice, yeah. How brilliant. I mean, that's I think where we all want to get to is feeling really happy with ourselves and our choices and find that level of peace. So look, if we can, let's rewind back to the very, very start. You grew up in a really musical household. Your mum was a singer. Your dad was in Mungo Jerry. and you had that sense that music was something that was important. When did that click for you that you thought, oh, this could be a career path for me or certainly something I'm very passionate about?

8:48I was really young, I think from the age of four. I remember running around the house listening to Michael Jackson and I was just like, this is what I want to do. My dad had a little studio in Dollis Hill and he used to bring me there sometimes when he was working and he put me on the mic at the age of five. I was singing Little Mermaid. Yes. I just knew there's nothing else that I felt passionate about. I mean, there was a short period where I wanted to be an archaeologist. Oh, gear change. Yes. But when it came to choosing the career path, I went, there's still time. There's still time. There's still time.

9:22Chapter two. Yeah. Who knows? A little bit of exploring, Lara Croft. Yeah, why not? You had a sort of family affair in terms of music because your cousin Dappy, he had sort of set up a sort of a rap group that you then ended up joining as a vocalist and you were being played on pirate radio, experiencing success in terms of that underground radio station situation, which was a huge deal. Yeah. But it clicked over to mainstream. How and when did you notice that happening? Well, firstly, I'd say Dappy wanted to be a solo star. It was his dad, Uncle B, that said, if you're going to do this, it's going to be a lot better if we turn it into a band and we get a singer involved.

10:08And he said, why don't you work with Phaser? And then they said, we need a singer. They originally hired someone else who didn't turn up to the session. It was fine because at the time I was like, I'm going to be solo. And then my uncle came and knocked on my door and was like, will you come to the studio? And at first I was like, nope, going solo. He was like, here's 20 quid. I was like, 30 quid. I was like, make it a pinky and I'll come. So that was our first session. And then we were together for like seven years before. That's like the age of 11 years old before we actually started getting that attention.

10:42And I remember we had a show in a place called Red Hill. And it was quite big in terms of venues. So there were about 2 ,000 kids in there. And we turned up, we got on stage and we sang, you know, I swear and ouch and the crowd was just screaming it back to us and we just looked at each other and we were like we've done it we've only gone and bloody done it um so yeah that was the first time when we really it just sunk in and it clicked we were like okay but it was years of hard graft to get to that place which is I think what helps artists essentially stick around because you know the hard work you've got to put in you understand how the industry works with your album Uncle B you had total mainstream success with that album yeah how did you cope with that because yes it's fun and exhilarating and you have that sense of achievement after all those years but it's it's a different flavor of working in the music industry when it's all eyes on you and people want to know you all of a sudden and there's exciting offers and opportunities how did you cope with that um I was in my savage era back then my whole life had been based around making it it was all I wanted all I wanted to do my only goal was my only focus to take me away from whatever stress I was going through at home so when I got it it was like just thriving it there was no at that that when I first came into it even if there was bad press even if there were problems I was just like this is what I want to do this is where I'm meant to be so I didn't really feel that that feeling at first I I enjoyed the phone it's what I'd always wanted I wanted to be successful and for me to be the most successful I could possibly be I you would have to have that kind of level of steering people in your business and press and stuff so when I got it I was like yes I've done it that's incredible and I guess that gives you a level of natural resilience because you know that the shit bit is worth it because you're doing what you ultimately want to do Well, I mean, that changed later down the line.

12:49But initially, that was the feeling. Did you have the right people around you at that time? No, definitely not. There's so many different things that could have been done. Like, I think back and I'm like, if I was managing Ndubs or guiding them, you know, once Uncle B left, it was very much a lot of strangers got involved and saw these kids and we'd already just crossed the line. So there wasn't much work to be done. it was just roll with it um but yes I don't want to bad mouth anyone do you know what I mean and say people didn't do their job properly but I just think when it comes to advising and finances and things like that that three 17 year old kids just don't really know much about um we could have had a lot more guidance than what we did I think also when you're really young in the industry and I can certainly look back at parts of my career and feel the same.

13:46You look at these adults who are strangers and you do initially think, oh, they know what they're talking about. They know what they're doing because I'm a kid and they're adults. So I'll do what they're telling me to do. And only in hindsight, you can, I guess, say, oh, actually, I probably shouldn't have trusted that person or followed that route. It's a tricky one because you're a kid. I mean, we kind of didn't. we would like we believe we were little adults in our mind you know i mean we were three kids from camden so the people that we were then coming across in the industry were like you don't know what you're on about we had that we had that energy um so yeah we did a lot ourselves we were very you know determined and we put our foot down on a lot of stuff but i just feel there was a lot more information and knowledge that could have been shared with us about things that we had to learn the hard way yeah i mean we all do we have to go through it to then to grow through it to grow through it babe go through it to grow through it i mean not long after in 2011 yeah simon cowell asked you to be a judge on x factor that is again a whole level up of fame and all eyes on you and scrutiny how did you navigate that um again at first i'd manifested that job so i'd sat down on the sofa next to my mate and said i want that job i'm getting that job one day So when it happened, I was thriving, I've done it, I've achieved another goal.

15:09And then things just got nasty. They took a turn probably around the time of the tape. That's when things just changed for me. So I just felt a difference in the energy of the press towards me and the general public. And that's when the years of that kind of poking the bear started to really sink in. And I started to feel a bit more negative about the process. and it just started to get to me it was just too much I felt too much pressure to judge by everyone and I'm a very sensitive individual emotionally I'm like a sponge so I could feel the dislike at times I could feel the hate from people and it made me feel very low very depressed and I just felt like this isn't a life I want to live so even though they actually didn't bring me back on the second year I'd already said I wasn't going back because if I was going to choose you know between success or my sanity I was going to choose my sanity which is utterly refreshing to hear because I think so often we feel pressured that we have to you know put on a suit of armor and go back out and deal with it all again but that show is a juggernaut and the attention that you get I mean I did like one series of extra factor a thousand years ago presenting it and I found it almost impossible to deal with the size of it and the pressure yeah and the expectation and never quite knowing if you're doing a good job and I I mean I opted out I left but I think I was probably ultimately sacked at the same time and I was like I'm out I'm done I can't put up with this anymore it's not for everyone it's not for everyone it's certainly not for me I am way too sensitive for that kind of thing but as you say you were feeling this shift in the press yeah and maybe from the public that's a horrible thing to go through i mean i've i've totally been through it as well i get it it's a shit feeling when people make assumptions about you people are judging you they you know that they're not seeing the real version of you there's no space to show the real version of yourself and it eats away at your confidence yeah i mean i at one point was like i'm out i don't want to do this anymore i really i'll go and try and find a way to do something else yeah because my confidence was so sharp what did it do to your confidence um the thing was rather than a lack of confidence it just made me angry and defensive because I was very resilient as a person I got that from my upbringing so it gave me more the feeling of right it's me against the world now f everyone yeah it was that energy rather than letting it sink into me and how i view myself i just projected it back on them and was just kind of in angry mode to survive but then you're in that battle mode that's draining oh of course suck the life out of me and i maintained that mode for a long long time yeah and you're in fight or fly you know you're constantly on edge that's not fun.

18:16It's the Eminem song alright I am whatever you say I am that's the energy that I had to go with so what can I do? Yeah it's shit. Yeah. It's really shit. It is shit. And I guess you you get to the point where you go well yeah I don't care what people think of me anymore. Yeah that's basically it you're just like alright it's what it is. Yeah I don't think I ever got there. No? No. I'm still still desperately trying to prove like this is who I really am. Yeah. This is the authentic me and no one will ever really get that. No, you can't. It's like the Japanese say we have three faces. We have the one we show ourselves in the mirror.

18:53Then we have the one that we show our immediate circle and then the one that the world sees. It's a big jump from the first face. Even the second face, or even the people closest to you second don't get to see that first face. So it's very difficult to show it to everyone. It's almost impossible. And especially when we're trying, like you say, it's like I want people to know me it's like we're in a state of seek which you know it's like we're projected that oh I'm lacking something I need something and then when we put out that energy then we're not being our true authentic selves so people can't see it anyway so it's it's difficult to find the balance between being us and not caring and just kind of staying neutral yeah it's hard to not care I realized really recently that I really give a shit whether people like me or not And I wish that wasn't the case, but I don't know how, and hopefully with age that will dilute, but I still care too much whether people like me or not.

19:51And I don't know if that's just because I'm so used to in my career, that being a currency almost, that if I liked, I get a job. Yeah, you have to. I struggle with that one. I mean, are you at a place where you literally don't give a shit if people like you or not? I'd say that I'm a very spiritual person. So I feel like my spiritual beliefs lead me to care less about what people think. Like I believe in reincarnation. I believe that we're here on earth to ascend the soul to next levels and to grow and have experiences. And so sometimes I kind of sit back and I'm like, this life, even though it's a great experience, is probably like a grain of sand on a beach in terms of the bigger picture.

20:34So it's kind of meaningless what people think or don't think. It's just about going on the journey and trying to just be, grow as much as I can. I care about the people that love me and what they think of me and how they see me. That's important because they know me. So their opinion is going to be valid because they actually know the real me. But other people, it's just society nonsense. It's just a perception that we've built up that we think we can just know people and judge people because they're in the public eye. And it's rubbish. No, Tom on the Internet doesn't have a clue who I am. So why would I take on board what he has to say?

21:12Yeah. Fuck Tom. Yeah, fuck Tom, man. Tom can do one. I'm probably going to transcribe what you've just said and read it every day just so I can stay sane to Lisa. That's probably what I need to do. Take it, take it. I mean, I guess a lot of this stuff is hard won. You can get to that point of caring less because you've experienced the extremes. And one of the major dramas happened in 2013 where you were embroiled in this awful drama where an undercover journalist gone rogue tried to set you up and get you arrested for drug dealing. Thank God you won the court case. but that doesn't mitigate the year of absolute hell that you went through.

21:59Just tell me about that time and how that's impacted you. Well, first of all, I didn't actually win. He was caught out lying in court and so the case was dropped and then obviously he was prosecuted for perjury. But yeah, that year, I call my year of enlightenment. There's nothing like it. you can't buy life experience like that um it's just completely unexpected I thought at the time I nothing much could shock me basically you know I'd seen it all and deceit that people could commit and lies that could be told but when that happened I was like wow this is this is a next a next level ups and downs throughout that year again I've always been very spiritual so So the spiritual side of me is probably what kept me going.

22:53But there were days when, you know, I'd be on that bathroom floor, crying my eyes out, having nervous breakdowns, thinking about doing the worst things possible. But I didn't have a choice. Like, you just have to keep going. And you just keep fighting or you drop. And I just chose to keep fighting through it. But it's very hard to describe the experience and the character traits you could say that it's given me. But ultimately now at this point, I do see it as a blessing because it was after that year that I began the journey of finding my peace. And I feel like without going through that, I would never have started that journey in the way that I have and got to the place that I am now.

23:41I was very lost and sometimes through all the chaos you can manage to find yourself or something deeper in yourself which I feel like I did. That's so amazing. Christ I think it's just so amazing because with big situations like that it is sink or swim. Yeah. And I think many people, I think I would sink in that situation. The amount of pressure and attention and the deceit that you've experienced and how that impacts just how you trust people every day. It takes such resilience to get through something like that, but not only get through it, to actually be thriving the other side of it. Yeah.

24:20I really don't know how. Sometimes I look back, I'm like, how? But I guess it's just an accumulation of experiences. My perspective, thought process and beliefs somehow have all come together to just get me to this amazing place. I really can't explain it other than just saying it's all perspective. It's all perspective. You know, I can choose to look at it how I want. I could sit here and I could be bitter and I could be angry. But that's not going to do anything for me. If I want to feel happiness and peace, I have to let it go. And there are positives that I've taken from it. I really needed people during that time.

25:00And I had an issue prior to that and for a long time afterwards with attachment, building bonds with people. I was kind of like someone that would I had a little bit of love for everyone but I would never zone in on deep relationships with people and then through needing people during that time I kind of bonded with people through trauma so like my two best friends that I have now I've known them from the age of 17 but it took that experience in my life for me to bond to the extent of sisterhood with them so I can literally say off the back of the experience I I learned how to love through needing through trauma which is incredible I don't want to be the person I was before that had issues with building attachment to people that's a horrible lonely depressing place to be in and now I have this incredible soul family around me the family I chose and they're incredible humans and every day and time spent with them and conversation is just beautiful it's love and it flourishes and it continues to grow and I was always missing that in my life and now I have it so I'd go through it all again to keep that.

26:15And do you think so prior to this situation with your lack of desire to have that closeness with people was that because you didn't want to ask for help you were scared to get close to them in case they left what was the problem um I don't think it was a lack of desire I think it was an inability I think I had been conditioned through the upbringing with my mum it was you know she has schizoaffective disorder schizophrenia and bipolar I was it's hard to explain so like with my mum's illness you might have six months where she's well completely normal and then all of a sudden overnight everything switches she goes into an episode becomes someone completely different there's days when she knows she didn't even recognize me she's mistaken me for a demon so when you grow up in this mindset of having to switch on and off your emotions and know that to me I almost had to be like oh love isn't real you know it's here but it's temporary I never really had that close loving bond with anyone so it was more about the fact that I just didn't understand it I didn't get it hadn't felt it hadn't seen it so I was just very very detached very very detached person I'd never had extremely close relationships with individuals I was always a loving person I was always kind to everyone and I felt a lot of empathy and I felt a lot of emotions but I just didn't get close to one individual person.

27:48I mean, that is an amazing silver lining to come out of something utterly shit. Has it affected how you trust people that you don't know? But I'm not someone that walks around going, what's he up to, what's she doing? I always hope for the best and prepare for the worst. So I just get to know people logically. You know, I have that wariness of everyone, but I don't lead with it. That kind of stays in the subconscious where I, you know, act in a way that I'm always protected, but I'll lead with love and, you know, give everyone an equal chance.

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29:41I mean, you described again during that period being in this sort of fight mode that you had already experienced working on X Factor and with all the drama going surrounding that. after that year was over and that there was a bit more clarity as to the outcome could you park that sort of fight or flight I'm in battle mode and feel a sense of peace no it was a straight away it was a straight I'd say only up until about a year ago I parked the fight or flight but that's because I had a lot of other issues going on in my life and I think I've only been caught case free like a year ago. I had consistent, but they're not necessarily criminal.

30:22So it could just be like legal suing over someone trying to sue me over something silly, but just constant court cases, court cases, court cases. So I think it's really only, yeah, within the past year, I've actually gone, right, I can breathe. But that's because I could actually physically breathe because everything in my life has calmed down. Although there's this song. Scream and Shout. Scream and Shout. Yeah. Another drama. Yeah, well, that happened afterwards, yeah. I mean, you could work in the sort of law world now, perhaps, with the knowledge that you've given. I know a lot about the legal system, unfortunately.

31:00It's like another drama to contend with. Yeah. I mean, so that was a song that you'd written. Yeah. And done a demo with your vocals on. Yeah. So tell us what happened after that. I got a call from Will.i.am saying, listen I want to take this record will you give it to me basically trying to do everything legitimately I want to put Britney on it I want to release it around the world it'll be amazing for you as a writer and I said no I want it to be my next single this is going to be my next single I can't give it to you I need a follow up from Young and then just casually sitting at home and there it was on the telly that's what you found out yeah Britney's just singing and I'm like, is that my voice on the record that she's singing over?

31:49When you hear this in the club, all eyes on us, all eyes on us, you can hear it. My vocals are on the record, so she's singing on top of me. That's why she's got the British accent. And I was just like, what the hell is going on? So, yeah, it started the long process of another legal case, which, you know, amazingly, thankfully, turned out in my favour. and actually now I don't complain about it because royalties are good so another great silver lining you know in a way you know Will was initially right when he was saying to me like this would be huge for you you know you can make so much money out of it you can do this with it have you know if we get a number one in like 52 territories around the world that's you know insane and someone like Brittany can do that but at the time I was just you know hard-headed and I was like, no, this is my single, I don't care about The Bigger Picture, it's my song.

32:42I'm not giving it to anyone. So where are you and Will.i.am at? Not anywhere. I've seen him and just been like, you're right, mate. I'm not arsed. I've got paid. My name's on the record. It is what it is. But you would have liked him to have told you, perhaps? Of course. Well, but I mean, I don't know. It is what it is, isn't it? He should have just put my name down on all the publishing to make sure that I was going to get paid either way rather than going the long-winded way around it. Like, of course I'm going to suit you. Right. But, you know, it is what it is. He went about how he did at the end of the day.

33:19It's something that I am proud of doing now. So, I don't know about blood. The music industry is wild. It is wild. It's wild. I don't think people truly understand how it is the wild west. The wild west. Like, they don't know. Unless you're in it, you don't know. It's ridiculous. It is. It's crazy. I mean, there must have been times where you've thought, I can't be bothered with this anymore. I'm out. 100%. 100%. I mean, through most of it. I think I'll be out in two years from now. I don't know. For a decent. Really? Truly? Truly. I'm going to property next year. I think I always come back for end-ups.

33:58But I just think the person I've become, I'm a public figure that doesn't really like being in the public eye. What keeps you in it? if I'm going to go out, I'd like it to be on my terms. And so there's still some things I'd like to do. Or is that private? Just bits and bobs coming up. So, yeah, before I do what I want to do, and then once all that's done, then I can say, you know, toodle pip. And I can take or leave it. It's not a thing where it's like, oh, I'm retiring, I'm out. I just go with how I feel. And if there's things that I want to do, I'll do them. And the times when I've, you know, like we say, I've just had enough.

34:39I just don't want to be doing this. I won't. Do you think you'd miss the attention? No. No. That would be a firm goodbye. Yeah. I've become such an introvert the older I've got. I pretty much wear black every day. My friends like test me. Because you're got there, are? Yeah. They're like, come on, get a dress on. No, I'm not doing it. You wear black every time we go out because I've already got enough attention. and I don't need to draw more attention to myself. I'm just a quiet person. I like my small circle of friends. I live in the middle of the countryside. I like looking out at the Shire every day.

35:16Yeah, it's just perspective. I like the quiet life now. That's a lovely place to be at. Really lovely. I mean, you touched on this a moment ago, but I want to give this proper, proper time because I love the documentary that you made about your childhood and your mum. My mum and me. I just thought it was so poignant and deeply important to properly look at what it is to be a young carer. You were a young carer to your mum. It was just you and your mum in the house. At that point, at a very young age, did you realise you were a carer? Because a lot of the time there isn't a name given to it. You're just doing a lot of the housework, making sure your mum is emotionally well.

35:58Did you understand that you were a carer? No, not until I was about 13. and then I'd started having sleepovers over friends' houses and seeing their parents and how things worked. And then I just kind of... I think, well, then again, I'd always realise because when she'd go into hospital, I'd go and stay with my aunt and I'd have a very happy life at my aunt's and I'd have a lot of structure and routine. And then it would be time to go home and I'd be like, oh, no, not again. So I don't think I... I think the unhappiness towards it started when I was like 13, when I saw, you know, my friends' environments and I was like, oh, I wish I had that.

36:36It was that kind of feeling. Why do I have to deal with this? And that's when it kind of kicked in. And watching that documentary, I mean, it's eye-opening. There's moments where you describe, you know, ambulances turning up, your mum being carted off to hospital, you going to the hospital and your mum being a sort of shell of herself. That is so much to deal with as a young teenager. Yeah. well from when I was born so but yeah there's no really words to describe it, a lot of emotions a lot of chaos but I guess you could say it gave me a good strong set of life tools It makes you grow up Yeah, you have to grow up really fast and you kind of start learning to analyse more because I remember I'm constantly watching my mum see what makes she in now what makes she going to be in, what's coming next So it's like I was in fight or flight mode from then, which then prepared me for more stuff that was to come.

37:34All of it. In the documentary, you meet a bunch of other young carers. And one common theme, sadly, is that your childhood, but also your school life is so massively impacted. How did that look for you? I just, I had so much to deal with at home. I already felt like a mini adult and I was in control of my life you know no no one's telling me what to do and then I go to school and I have to like play child and be told off by teachers and say well you have to do this and you have to do that I had a deep interest in certain subjects and the subjects I was good at I was amazing at but the rest of the time it was like well I don't I don't want to sit and learn about algebra I'm not I'm not doing it it's not going to help me in life I know exactly what it is I'm planning to do so I just had this real too big for my boots attitude I was just in there like this is this is nonsense I don't need to be here and I'll just kind of pick and choose what I put my energy into um because I was essentially already in a sense an adult and that was the problem I just hated being forced to do things and told what to do it's like I have to deal with enough crap when I'm at home I don't want to come here and you make me sit and spend an hour of my time wasted into something I have absolutely zero interest in and that I don't believe is going to further me in life.

38:50So I just had a bad attitude at school. Well, you had a lot to cope with. Yeah. You were trying to deal with a lot. There's a part in the documentary where you're reading a diary entry from you aged 12, and it's really heartbreaking to hear where your head's at. Yeah. Looking back at 12-year-old little Tula. Little Tula. Little Tula. Tula Bula. Sweet little 12-year-old Tula. How does that make you feel? Or what do you want to say to little 12-year-old Tula? Oh, I want to hug her. I want to run over there and go, hey, baby girl, it's all going to be okay. You're going to be good. Hang on in there.

39:27Stay strong. You got this. But then I guess it wouldn't be the same. You had to live in the unknown. Did you feel there was enough care and support for you, whether that was coming from your community or your family? Who did you turn to when it all got too much? No, I didn't feel like there was enough care and support. I remember, I must have been about 14, and my mum's like mid-episode, she's going into breakdown mode, when this happens she needs to be sectioned, like she can't take care of herself, she can't do anything, she can't cook, she can't clean, she can't even go to the toilet. and I remember ringing the hospital being like look I need I need some help no we don't really have any beds at the moment um I don't even want to go into too much of you know because it's yeah it's my mum but the situation that was happening at the time was really bad and to this day I just think like why the hell was social services not stepping in and doing stuff like it's mental but But this day and age, it has changed.

40:27I feel like there's more protection for the kids like me. Yeah, I mean, you met with so many young people who are, that is their daily life now. Has that been, I don't know if comforting is even the right word because it feels all soft and flimsy. But has it been, has there been some sort of a nice connection, a positive connection meeting these young carers over the years? um honestly like i've always been in that person that's just like i've got it i haven't felt like i've needed to if anything it's just like i have to now sit and go over it again and talk about it when all i want to do is move forward with my life um and steer away from anything mental health because i spent my entire childhood living with it that's the truth of it if anything i just would just feel sad you know meeting another person that has had to go through what I've gone through it's like oh not you as well you poor sod like that's that's more the emotion that I feel from it.

41:26Is your mum doing all right now? She's okay um the problem is all the medication she's taken over the years um they can obviously have long-term effects on the brain so she's now developed Alzheimer's off the back of that so that's been difficult especially because she doesn't understand already half the time what's really going on so to try and explain a new thing and handle that has been uh pretty complicated um but as is life this is life and what can we do yeah what can we do what can we do we just roll with the punches you know yeah that's what it is i mean you you were in the documentary nervous about could this happen to me one day where's my mental health gonna go yeah it seems like you're all right i mean if it was gonna happen I say it would have happened by now.

42:17So yeah, I'm all clear. I'm safe. I'm good. So brilliant. For people out there listening to this who are like, you know, they might have a history of mental health in their family. They might have had their own massive ups and downs or been through extremely challenging one-off situations. What do you think has gotten you through to this point where you can lean on some sort of spiritual framework or feel even remotely positive about the future? Because for some people, I think you go through something really hard and you think, I'm done. My life will never be the same again. I've certainly felt like that after certain things that I went through.

42:54Well, I'm never going to be okay ever again. How do you get to that place? I think people desperately want to try and feel like that's possible for them. There is potential for them to feel okay. Yeah. Well, I say spiritualism is a natural process. is either you feel it or you don't in this lifetime. So if it's something that has touched you and you're sort of looking at from the sidelines, then I would say tap into that if you feel it's something that you can do. But for the people that can't do that, perspective. I do believe that perspective is a choice. You can sit and you can choose to wake up every day and be miserable about the things you can't change.

43:33Or you can look at the day in the face and say, I'm going to make you my bitch. I'm going to fight to the death and I will be happy because I choose to be and I will find happiness in the smaller things in the day if I can't find it in the overall day and I will make room for happiness and I will create the little moments that keep me going and perspective, perspective, perspective Perspective is such an interesting one I literally saw one of those cliche quotes on Instagram this morning but it did, it touched me and it was someone famous that said it and I can't remember some great thinker, but happiness is all due down to if you are creating negative thoughts or not and it being that simple.

44:17And I've been talking about this shit for years, but I still have to have it reduced down to the bare bones of, I am choosing to tell myself this terrible story again and again. I'm choosing to concentrate on the lack and all of the misfortune rather than choosing to look at the good stuff. And it is such, it's a tiny shift in a way, but it is life shatteringly impactful if you can nail it. Do you think it's practice? A hundred percent. Yeah. Practice and experience. I get exactly what you're saying. Like at the moment, let's just say like at the minute I'm house renovating. So it might be a little five minutes throughout the day.

44:57All I've done is going, going, going. And then I stop, have a little sick break. And you might get the odd little negative thought, you know, trying to creep in. And I found like naturally at the moment, like it's literally only a couple of seconds. I'm like, no, no. Why am I thinking about that for? That's not serving me. That's an imaginary scenario. That might not ever even happen. I'm not wasting my energy thinking, what else is there to do? Right. So I look at the to-do list, crack on, let's go. Or, oh, well, there could be something really nice that I could be slightly thinking about. Why am I thinking about essentially bullshit?

45:27Not doing it. And I just, I don't know. It's like I've started having that snap now where I just say to myself, nope, nope, nope. If it doesn't serve me, I'm not into it. I'm not giving it any energy. It's not giving me any energy. It's not doing anything for me. So why am I feeding it? I'm fascinated about this because sometimes I think I get caught in a trap of I can totally think like that. Yeah. Or I will think to myself, you have to look at all the shit and you have to look at the past and you have to rifle through it all to find that peace would you say that that doesn't work for you like yeah I was gonna say that's perspective so that it might work for you some people need to do that like some people want to you know go to a council and they want to talk through things and they want to find the source of the issues and before they can let it go and move forward for me it doesn't work but that's just me you know it's just never been my way and I've maybe gone the long way around it having to self-analyze and dig and figure it out but um it's rooting into the past doesn't do it for me personally for me personally the best thing possible is to go just let it go it's done I'm here I'm alive I can be sat feeling miserable about it all or I can choose to be happy and I'm just going to choose to be happy especially after everything that I've gone through, I refuse to spend another unnecessary second feeling anything that I do not and should not have to feel.

47:04Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is like therapy for me, Talisa. I love that. It's so good. Glad I could help. No, it's so good because I think, first of all, that proves it's different for everyone. There is not one route to finding peace. No. You can dig into your past or you can choose not to. And sometimes I think we feel like we shouldn't bypass the trickier things because we're not looking at it or it's, you know, somewhere below the surface lurking and it's going to spring out. But maybe it's not. And maybe we can make a decision to not go back and not look at stuff too deeply. 100%. And choose positivity.

47:45Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say because people out there dealing with like serious issues and mad depression that they need help. I've got friends that suffer with depression and anxiety and I have these conversations with them. And even me having my perspective, I look at them and I don't know if that's the best way for you to go around it. So it really just differs for each person. But I do believe that majority of the time, the little moments, you know, in the day that there is always a choice. you know even if it's just to think less negatively over all of it just choose hope rather than lean into the darkness what about stress because you've been through things that are not only quite traumatic but actually really stressful and that's not only a mental drain but it is physically impactful too how do you think stress has impacted you and how have you moved through it?

48:39Probably just like there's times when I've just been a nervous wreck it's just made me more of an anxious nervous person than I was before and gave me a lot of unnecessary layers to my character but it's something that like I said as of recent especially the last year I've just started shaking off I think coming back with Ndubs really helped because I was feeling pretty agoraphobic at that time after covid and then the realization kicked in i was like oh wow a week from now i'm gonna have to be on stage in front of 20 000 people i mean you did what four nights at the o2 yeah that's insane i know i mean if anything will shake your anxiety your social anxiety out of your agoraphobia it's that so the universe just kind of thrusted me where it was like no there's no room for anxiety here love you better just get up there and do what you do and this is what you and sing and that just helped me you know but I still felt it a little bit afterwards and then it's kind of only recent I've just been letting go more and more of it and now I'm fine just letting go just letting go just letting go I'm such a control freak I know but that's the problem we're not present if we're just constantly trying to control everything around us we can't we have to be in the moment that is living so with this new sense of letting go because before as you say even if we look at becoming a judge on the X Factor, you manifested that.

50:03And sometimes I think... Ah, go on, I know where you're going. I know, because I confuse manifesting with like, I'm in control here and this is the route that I'm taking. And the fear of me letting go is everything will fall to shit. Yeah. Because I'm not in manifesting mode, controlling everything. Yeah. Well, I would say the art of manifesting is to manifest, but then also let go afterwards. You don't hold on to the manifestation. So like even everything going on in my life right now, I manifested that as well. And that started from like two years ago. And I maybe when I was in work mode and grafting to get to a certain place, I was in manifestation mode, like imagining and like I'm there, picturing the feeling that I'm now experiencing.

50:45But then once the ball started rolling, I just let go. And I don't need to manifest it anymore because it's coming. It's there. It's mine. So why do I need to seek it? And it's like I say, when you're seeking, you're in a state of lack. It's I need, I want, I don't have. The more abundant energy you project to the world, I've got everything I need. I'm, you know, straight, abundance, peace, prosperity. The more it comes in. So part of the manifestation is cool. Imagine it, feel it like you're there, but then let go because you know it's coming. So you don't need to manifest it anymore. You've got it.

51:25It's already done. The writing's on the wall. That's the bit I'm not doing. Yeah, you have to. It's like a bit of both, you know. And so, like, at the moment, I'm not manifesting. I might daydream about, well, I know what's to come. That's going to be nice. But then I just crack on with my day. I mean, what is next? As you said, you know, you're always going to be there for Ndubs. If they're, you know, going to be doing a tour or making new music. Another album, another tour, yeah. Okay, you're there. Yeah. But outside of that, the countryside and peace. Countryside and peace. I'm going into property oh I mean I'm already in property but I'm going into into property I I'm actually gonna build some themed rentals so I'm like a super fantasy geek all things like Lord of the Rings Harry Potter Game of Thrones and I've always wanted to get into the property game but I was also like there's some parts of it that can be a little bit mundane and I was like how can I do this but also be really passionate about what I'm doing so why don't I incorporate you know something that I'm super passionate about so instead of just like building houses let's build themed places that I can rent out this is wild let's create my own woodland realm do you know what I mean I know it sounds quite far-fetched but I'm doing it so yeah the minute I'm looking for land I want it to all be very kind of nature reserved um you know cabins in the forest and you have like your Hagrid's hearts and your little hobbit house.

52:57Wow. So yeah, that's my plan for 2024. I was not expecting you to say that. I don't think many people would. Just Talisa, digging out a hobbit home. I'm so excited about it. Like I'm absolutely buzzing. Like I love my life. I just wake up just, you know. That's what it's all about. I'm getting the sketches together at the moment, hunting for land. I went and saw a piece of land the other day and I was just like, I'm in heaven. This is what I'm going to do. So good. I'm here for it. Yeah? I'm so here for it. You get free weekends. Oh, I'm coming. What would be your ultimate? The Hobbit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:37I'm just scurrying into that little burrow and having a peaceful time. Thanks very much. We'll make the door tall enough for a leaf ledge. I can crawl in. It's all good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What joy it's been to talk to you. Thank you. I'm personally so I'm just chuffed that you're in such a good place and I think not only am I happy that you're in a good place but I think it's so positive for all of us to hear that it's entirely possible to get through really shitty situations and come out the other side not only being alright but actually thriving yeah agreed agreed and you know if the story inspires anyone to feel like that But then another amazing reason as to not feel upset about it.

54:22Like, yeah, you know, it's worth it for so many reasons. It's brilliant. Well, I've loved talking to you and it's been so lovely to hang out. Thank you, Talisa. You too, Fern. I'll see you soon. See you soon in the Hobbit house.

54:37Oh, Talisa, I absolutely blimmin' love you. As I said before that chat, I needed that. I hope you felt like that helped you in many ways and has maybe changed your perspective. She kept saying the word perspective, which I found really interesting. It's all about perspective and all about perception. And that's something that I'm imagining she thinks about a lot because it has enabled her to get out of some really sticky situations and move on from them. Sometimes we can be in a shit place and really sink and not recover or, you know, really still feel the sting of things for a long time after.

55:16I know that's certainly where I've been. And I'm so impressed that she's really moved on. I think it's amazing. Talisa, you are brilliant. Talisa also by accident knocked a whole glass of water over me before that chat, which we've put up online on a little vlog. um yeah she just clumsily sort of hit the whole thing over me and I was like oh my trousers are soaked anyway it was a great start now if you want to hear more about some of the things Talisa brought up do listen back to Matt Hague's episode he also talked about agoraphobia as Talisa did and young blood that's another bloody great episode he talks a lot about social anxiety and of course we chatted about x-factor with Zayn lovely Zayn Malik there'll be links to those episodes in the show notes if you want to listen to them you can just click straight through I'll be back here next week but do come and chat on Instagram in the meantime we're at happy place official I want to say a massive thanks again to Talisa to the producer Anushka Tate at happy place studios and to you just be that's Talisa's motto I've nicked it

56:34Thank you.

57:17We'll see you next time.

57:34Good times, hard times, and of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org.