Understanding neurodiversity: managing ADHD and getting diagnoses

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and today I want to mark ADHD Awareness Month by reflecting on some of the brilliant conversations we've had about neurodiversity on the show that will hopefully help you understand either yourself or someone you love even better. I completely understand why being undiagnosed with a neurodivergent condition can end up leading to mental health problems. There's a great deal of shame in the community. They are wired in a different way that society expects. I suddenly had this calm come over me with this Adderall and I could think about what I was going to say.

0:39Atylcholine is such an important brain chemical. It helps with learning, memory, emotional regulation. We really need to understand what's going on for our children and ask not what's wrong with you, but what's going on for you. This year's ADHD Awareness Month theme is awareness is key. And I think storytelling is such a huge part of awareness raising the amount of friends, people I know and love dearly who have started to feel more cognizant of their own behavior, proclivities from just listening to a podcast or listening to other people telling their story. I can't tell you how many times I've experienced that happening.

1:23That's why I think these conversations are really important. You might listen to this today and think, oh, my God, that's me. That resonates. That maybe I've got ADHD or whatever it might be. I think knowing yourself truly stops you giving yourself a hard time. And that's why I feel particularly passionate about this little collection of episodes. So first up today, what is ADHD? You'll hear from Dr. Shai Mashru, a psychiatrist who came on our YouTube series, What Is How To? Then you're going to get Gemma Stiles. She's going to tell you her story of how getting a diagnosis positively impacted her mental health.

2:04And Alex Partridge joined us at the Happy Place Festival to chat about neurodivergence in the workplace, which is a really important one. Jordan Stevens also talks about how it first felt taking ADHD medication and why he now chooses to manage his ADHD through lifestyle choices. Lucinda Miller, who I'm obsessed with, picks up that thread explaining why nutrition is so crucial for our brains. And the queen of all things ADHD and specifically within childhood, Kate Silverton, has some really thought provoking ideas about why it's not our brains that need fixing. Oh, that one is so liberating. But our environment.

3:03Keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction.

3:45But there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh. And Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion. Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, Madewell, and more. And the best part? Free shipping, free returns, and easy in-store pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today.

4:23Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.

4:56okay here we go this is the show Thank you.

5:28There are three types of ADHD. Combined type, which is the most frequent, where patients will describe both inattentive as well as hyperactive and impulsive symptoms. Second most common type being predominantly inattentive type, where the main clinical picture is around inattention. And the least common is the hyperactive type, where the main clinical picture is hyperactive and impulsive symptoms. In order to be diagnosed, you have to have the presence of symptoms, and it also must severely impact your functioning in day-to-day life. People with ADHD might have difficulties with their education, employment, having difficulty sleeping, having difficulty in their relationships.

6:11They might describe what's called emotional dysregulation where they struggle to control their emotions and are very prone to high levels of anxiety and depression. and they might have difficulties financially where they're spending money very impulsively or trouble with addictions to substances and alcohol. There's no one known cause of ADHD. It's thought to be a complex interaction of genetics and environment with genetic loading playing a heavy role in that interaction, 70 to 80 % of the cases. That means if you are a parent of a child that was diagnosed with ADHD or you have a sibling that's been diagnosed with ADHD and you feel that you may have symptoms, you should go and seek some assistance.

6:52With regards to the symptoms, there are broadly speaking two categories of symptoms. There are nine inattentive symptoms and nine hyperactive and impulsive symptoms. With regards to the inattentive symptoms, these can be problems with focus and attention, problems with working memory and problems with organisation and executive dysfunction, i.e. the ability to carry out tasks in a timely manner. The most common of these symptoms would be procrastination in my clinical experience. People describe leaving complex tasks until the deadline. From the outside, employers might perceive them as being lazy.

7:30Actually, it's because they can't break down that task into simpler pieces, and that can cause crippling anxiety. The other category of symptoms being hyperactive and impulsive symptoms would be broken down into physical fidgetiness and restlessness, being very impulsive. So that might lead to substance addictions or spending money very recklessly. On a social level, it can look like interrupting people in conversation very often, blurting out answers before questions are complete, which as you can imagine might be problematic in a work setting, for example. And it's described by patients as a feeling of internal restlessness, where they're constantly feeling restless and feel the need to be doing something all the time.

8:15It can affect someone's ability to sleep because their brain is racing and thinking of so many things they can't switch it off at night. Often people with ADHD struggle to sustain long-term friendships. They struggle to get back to people when they've left the messages and emails. Out of sight, out of mind thinking. And that doesn't just happen for objects, but also for people. Hobbies and interests can also be affected. People may start many hobbies or projects with enthusiasm and then not follow through. ADHD is actually very treatable and manageable. If you are experiencing any of those symptoms and they are impacting your life, I would strongly suggest that you seek expert medical advice by someone who's trained in assessing and managing ADHD.

9:02ADHD isn't something that comes and goes and, you know, you don't get it or be cured from it or whatever. it's kind of it just is so yeah I think the acceptance thing would definitely be my biggest positive of actually having the diagnosis um just because when you're kind of sat in your house struggling to start to do a task or thinking about all the things you've not done or just remembering something you've forgotten to do or just sitting there beating yourself up basically and yeah sort of asking that question like like why why am I doing this like why is my brain like this it does just answer part of that question which for me has been yeah really helpful emotionally more than anything else I think so what led you because obviously there's a point where you go I need to go and get this checked out what what led you to go and seek a bit of advice and get the diagnosis so me personally it was and this is why I find it quite funny when quite a lot of the the sort of conversations that people end up having on social media about ADHD do tend to be people sort of saying, you know, oh, it's like trendy now, like everyone's got it, or everyone diagnoses themselves on social media.

10:06But the reason why I kind of looked into it was because another woman who was about the same age as me had been diagnosed and had kind of gone on her Instagram stories and talked about it and kind of talked about the things that she struggled with and then how she ended up getting this diagnosis. And it was all quite, you know, she didn't expect it and all the rest of it and my best friend who's known me since I was five sent me her stories and was like I don't want you to take this the wrong way but this really sounds like you because she's you know is one of the people who knows me the best in the world and knows the things that I you know was really struggling with and the things I had struggled with for the whole of my life and that includes you know the things I don't like about myself and the things you you sort of struggle with wanting to change or just not knowing why you are the way you are and so yeah she sent me those stories like babe is this you and I was like wow okay yeah and it really did and I kind of I sat with that still for like maybe a year afterwards and didn't do anything about it but the question was still sort of ticking and then the algorithm being what it is you know I started getting all these like more videos and more sort of posts and information about it and obviously was reading other things not just on social media and I mean when you actually look at the situation at least in this country it's only relatively recently that the nhs and our kind of like public health guidelines even acknowledged that adults can be diagnosed with adhd so if you think about it like for all of those decades beforehand it's not that those people didn't exist it's just that there was literally there was no framework that anybody even could have been formally diagnosed because within our health system it apparently didn't exist so it's all paperwork at the end of the day and we hate that yeah true I'm really interested to know from what I've looked into with ADHD a very interesting part is the comorbidities these these things that can run parallel to ADHD and it can be a whole plethora of things but many people and I'm not sure what the percentage is but I think many people who have ADHD it will come along with something else, whether it's depression, anxiety, it could be OCD, it could be ADD, there's all these other things that can come along with it.

12:18Do you think that the depression you talk about in the book, the anxiety you talk about in the book, do you think they're comorbidities? Do you think the ADHD was there and then these were things you experienced due to it or do they feel separate to you? I think they're definitely quite tangled up for me. Yeah, I think I completely understand why in an abstract sense being undiagnosed with you know a neurodivergent condition can end up leading to mental health problems I think a lot of people don't realize that you know like ADHD isn't a mental health issue and I think some people are surprised by that because so many people who are talking about ADHD talk about the effect that not knowing they has had on them and it is so so sort of mingled in with poor mental health at this point and it doesn't have to be the case and I think that there's lots of campaigners and activists and all sorts of people even just people with lived experience who are talking about this and sort of saying you know it's not it's not that there's something wrong with us you know it's just that operating within a system and society and all the rest of it that maybe isn't aware or doesn't cater for or just just doesn't really have you know like enough of an elastic waistband to kind of cope with anybody whose brain works a little bit differently like it's really stressful to live your life in that kind of environment that doesn't really suit you and you know there's lots of it's not just ADHD you know there's lots of people with lots of different situations or personalities even who just you know when you don't fit perfectly or fit comfortably into what everybody else is doing it is uncomfortable and when you do that for years upon years upon years especially when you don't know what the reason is of course it's going to have a massive impact on your mental health and that was definitely true for me recognizing it is super important recognizing your own early signs of of anxiety and advocating for yourself I think the intuition that so many of us have is so strong advocating for yourself in businesses finding a a buddy in you in the company that you work for and being confident to be able to open up with them and tell them i'm struggling now can you cover for me and actually just allowing i think movement is so important if i'm having an anxious moment just standing up and and walking around the office or advocating for walking meetings is so important.

14:43I mean, there's loads of breathing techniques you can do. You can remove yourself from the situation. You can take a timeout. All of these are useful things. I always have a fidget toy if I'm doing a podcast. I don't today. But putting movement into the situation, recognizing what caused the anxiety is super important. Recognizing what was said, what happened that triggered that thought and how you're responding to it. I think body doubling is a super useful tool to cure anxiety because it lowers the expectations and it takes the pressure off when you're in that office and that anxiety is peaking.

15:25If you've got someone who you can lean on in that moment and actually you feel safe with that person, then the workload is spread between the two of you. Communicating, it's so important this bit because we all should feel comfortable to talk about our neurodivergence to the company that we're working for because we have to be able to advocate for ourselves in the workplace in order to solve a lot of these problems. I think you know yourself with your intuition whether you're in a safe place or not to do that. The reality, unfortunately, is if a lot of people, they do advocate for themselves for these conditions and we're met with discrimination, bullying, harassment, all sorts of horrible things.

16:14Recognizing if you're in a safe place to open up and ask for help, you're allowed to work from home. It's really important to understand the legal obligations that companies have. If you're struggling with anxiety, you're allowed to ask to work from home. You're allowed to ask for flexible start times. you're allowed to have a quiet space in the office and to decompress and to advocate for walking meetings around the office so there's lots of things that legally you're allowed to do if anxiety is really disabling you from doing the job that you're capable of doing if you were working in an environment that was tailored to your brain understanding what those are you don't have to have a diagnosis of any neurodivergent conditions to ask for these things and I think it's important to really recognise your rights as an employee.

17:04Anxiety should never stop you from achieving and being able to do what you're able to do. And again, it goes back to the reflecting, really being really brutally honest with yourself and saying what worked today, what didn't work today and over a period of time building up that arsenal of resources that will really aid you. I guess it has to be teamed with a level of self-compassion because the reflection bit is so important, as you've said, to be able to sit at the end of the day or week and go, that really worked. That was a struggle. You know, this I coped with well, this I didn't. But we can't just put all that out on the table and then start judging ourselves.

17:43I think it's so important that we and I think we have to cultivate this and learn to do it to say that didn't go so brilliantly or that was really, really stressful. and allow yourself to recognize that, but with self-compassion. And I think most of us have a hard time doing that. Most of us have a hard time being kind to ourselves. We're the first person to go, well, you screwed that up. You're an idiot for making that mistake. And then we just berate ourselves and berate ourselves. Where are you at in terms of the levels of self-compassion you can exercise in moments of self-reflection? it's a really really great question i think there's a great deal of shame in the community i think that's the main theme that crops up time and time again when i'm when i'm speaking to people that have started advocating for themselves they've discovered this self-awareness they've suddenly realized that they are wired in a different way that society expects and that's okay and to actually have that moment to acknowledge that that's okay is really really important and to recognize that a lot of the stuff that you thought were character flaws or defects were actually undiagnosed neurodivergence.

19:01And when you have that moment of realization, it's suddenly a lot easier to be kinder to yourself when you slip up or when something happens that makes you anxious, because it's not your fault. And reminding yourself that it's not your fault is incredibly powerful and incredibly soothing. Because so many of us in the neurodivergent community, we're burdened by this shame, this guilt of, oh, I've messed up again. Why can't I just do what everyone else seems to be able to do? Everyone else seems to just be gliding by progressing in their personal life, progressing in their professional life, but I just seem to not, I just seem to be stuck.

19:44For some reason, I'm not able to progress in the way that I want to do. When you have that realization that it's not your fault, it's so important and so soothing.

20:09talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn.

20:48Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh, and Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion. Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, Madewell, and more. And the best part? Free shipping, free returns, and easy in-store pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today. Hey, I'm Dr.

21:26Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Right, let's get back to the show. Here's Jordan Stevens, Lucinda Miller and Kate Silverton.

22:02Do you have an understanding that you had ADHD before you started taking drugs? I had been diagnosed once, but I didn't really believe it. I didn't take it very seriously. I got put in a special education unit at school for my GCSEs. So I was allowed to stand up during my GCSEs. That was it. And then I was later re-diagnosed as an adult. And in the middle, I went to New York and took a friend of mine's ADHD medication called Adderall. and I did it almost as a laugh and then I had this I remember taking this Adderall and we were in New York and we were a bunch of friends we were having a bit of fun at that time it was a really great place to go for me in Harley because it was really peak attention for us here New York no one knew who we were and then I suddenly had this calm come over me with this Adderall and I could think I was about 22, 23 when this happened I could think about what I was going to say.

23:02Fern, I'm not lying to you, right? Before that point with Adderall, I honestly didn't know people could think about what they said. I thought when people weren't saying anything, they just had nothing to say. I didn't know that they were considering it. So I had, honestly, at that point, you just say, I mean, you would have remembered that of me, I'm sure. I used to come around your house and I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, of course, you had those Christmas parties, whatever. Oh, those Christmas parties. I was telling Anushka, the producer, about these parties earlier. Bloody hell. No, but I would honestly motor mouth.

23:34And then I'd think about what I'd go. Fuck, what did I say? You know, like. And anyway, so I realised that, you know, there was another part of the world. Which was that your thoughts have enough space to go to before you say them. Yeah. So that was part of the journey. And then eventually I was again diagnosed in Harley Street by a guy who looked at me and said, you quite clearly have ADHD. and I'd also been self-medicating on this stuff and I'd been taking way too much of it. It's just another story. It's so interesting. I've been learning so much about ADHD. I actually did a King's College course to learn more about it recently.

24:12Just wanting to really get to grips because I've had loads of friends diagnosed recently. I know a lot of kids who have got it and I'm really desperate to understand more about it and the different presentations. I don't even know if I've got it or if Jessie's got it. you know, all these... Well, you reckon you can develop it now. Yeah, I think, but also our demographic went undiagnosed as kids in all areas. It just wasn't, this stuff wasn't talked about. That's why I think there are so many late diagnoses now. Yeah, of course. Because people are going, oh, right, that makes sense as to why I do this, why I do that, and whatever.

24:45And I think it's so interesting because clearly you've now found a medication that really suits you, which is... Well... Or not. Which is... No, the one, you're on medication now. No. No, you're not, okay. I've come off that as well now. I've come off it. But this is the interesting thing because this is what I was learning about on this course is there isn't obviously one route to take as a kid or an adult. You've got to find what works for you and it could be a lifestyle thing. It could be therapy. It could be just having that awareness, changing something in your life or medication. It's got to be, and it goes for all, you know, neurodiversity or mental health problems.

25:19There isn't one answer. You've got to take this medication. You've got to do this. You've got to find what works for you. Definitely. I wouldn't suggest going the route I went necessarily in terms of like accidentally medicating yourself with the worst drug, by the way. I just think cocaine is just the worst drug. ADHD, I think, is becoming more prevalent in society just because of the way society is structured, because of our screen time, our usage, and because of just the encouraging of unhealthy behavior. So, you know, I definitely think people are, or if they have some kind of dormant ADHD, or if they had dealt with ADHD, it's definitely been heightened.

26:00How we live today is not sustainable and we all know that in terms of how much we're on our phone but also how we are seeking distraction. If we were doing that back in the day, it was probably in quite a harmless way. We were just watching crap TV or we'd buy a magazine or whatever but now you can watch TV, read a magazine and be on TikTok and your brain's going, like a ping pong going around a machine like wow what's going on here and we're all caught in that cycle and we don't actively seek to counterbalance it that often do you have techniques now where you know it will help you to get your brain thinking in a simpler way or to have that space away from all the craziness um i think one thing that helps me with my adhd now i don't don't medicate i i find food nutrition is really helpful for me nutrition and exercise so i usually am more erratic if i've eaten something non-beneficial for my body yeah and and exercise you know if i'm in a routine i've just been through a phase i've just been away but before that almost a month solid two months solid of of this half an hour training with my friend on Zoom every single day.

27:17And I just feel so strong. And, you know, they're natural endorphins, natural feelings of goodness and happiness. And I feel I make better decisions when I'm in that space. In our bellies, we've got this incredible ecosystem, this sort of microbial soup called the microbiome. And it's lots of different bacteria, viruses, parasites, yeasts. You know, it's a proper world. and when it's in a really good balance there's lots of really good guys that are making that soup all yummy and nutritious and happy and positive and warming and glowing but sometimes these pesky bacteria whether it's a virus coming in from the outside whether it's bacteria it's growing within whether it's some toxins from the environment you know you get loads of infections in a row whatever it might be so you're on loads of antibiotics it can completely disrupt it so the antibiotics are almost like a carpet bomb and they get rid of the bad bacteria, which is what we want, but they also get rid of this beneficial bacteria.

28:21And it's the beneficial bacteria that help to build our neurotransmitters. And neurotransmitters are the things that keep our mood happy, help us sleep, help us focus, help us learn. And so if you aren't creating enough of those, they're not being as efficient as they should do, then the mood and everything goes down. so the immune system is really important so part of the gut microbiome is to help make your immune system it also helps to bring down this inflammation i was talking about that can affect the brain but it also makes these neurotransmitters and i tell you a little bit about neurotransmitters because i'm really really love these so everyone's heard probably if they know anything about the gut microbiome they've probably heard of something called lactobacillus it's in yogurt it's in its cousin called kefir.

29:08It's in all the fermented culture foods that people talk about. It's also created from eating a healthy diet, fruits and vegetables, et cetera. And lactobacillus helps us digest dairy. It brings down inflammation, it helps with the immune system. So it's great research to find that lactobacillus can help with things like coughs and colds and things like that if a child has enough. But it also helps to make this neurotransmitter called acetylcholine. And Acylcholine is such an important brain chemical. It helps with learning, memory, emotional regulation and self-regulation. So it helps with things like working memory and processing and executive function.

29:49All these key things that neurodivergent kids often really, really struggle with. And lactobacillus also makes another neurotransmitter, which a lot of people are not familiar with but it's so important it's called GABA G-A-B-A and GABA is our cool calm relaxed neurotransmitter it basically is that zen-like feeling having come out of a gorgeous massage or a yoga session you feel super calm and you need a lot of GABA to be able to sleep well and you need enough GABA say teenagers you know those risky teenagers that do all the kind of crazy stuff often they haven't got enough GABA I feel like I'm lacking GABA I think most of us can do with more GABA I need some GABA in my life guys oh my god so the lactobacillus helps to make that right and so does this other bacteria called bifidobacterium that also is really important too but also GABA can come from tea so older like tweens and teens can have things like green tea And you know how you've maybe you've had a big shock.

30:54And so I was to sit down, love, have a cup of tea and you feel, you know, all that shaking goes away afterwards because the gabas kicked in. And that contains something called theanine. And theanine is this amazing amino acid that helps to keep us really calm. It's very gabba rich. You can get gabba from things like chamomile tea. So why you feel great after having a cup of chamomile tea, oats and again, the yogurts and things like that. And some cheeses contain gabba. So, you know, so there are these GABA rich foods that you can have. The trouble is the opposite to GABA is something called glutamate.

31:27We've all heard of monosodium glutamate, MSG, which has been added to lots of the processed foods. Now, that's been mainly taken out of foods because there was so much hoo-ha about it. You know, the food manufacturers said, we better get rid of this. But what they've done is they've replaced the MSG with these high glutamate ingredients, things like yeast extract, even natural flavoring citric acid, which are almost in almost every packaged food you get. And these are incredibly high in the same element is called glutamic acid or free glutamate. And that can affect the brain just as much. So that's making the brain get uppey, uppey, uppey, excite, excite, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz.

32:04and there's not enough GABA. So if you're not making enough GABA through the gut and then you're not getting enough GABA through the diet, again, that seesaw can be out of balance. And it tends to be that very excitable, very difficult to regulate child who finds it incredibly difficult to get to sleep is often, especially when you notice that if they, I don't know, have a blue Smartie or, you know, a packet of Doritos or whatever it might be, that they've gone a bit crazy. Yeah, I mean, we can all monitor this stuff in our kids. We can actually see it in real time. we can watch them eat something highly processed or really high in refined sugar and we can see it like it'll be 10 minutes later they'll be bouncing off the walls or they might have a meltdown and that's the funny thing is that we're sort of downplaying this idea that food's going to impact whether it's neurodivergent symptoms or just the brain but we see it all day every day and we feel it in ourselves you know if I ate something super sugary now I know I would feel wretched about half an hour later I would be bloated in the gut which I now have learned so much about how that's connected to my brain but I would probably feel like jittery and high it seems like when we're talking about neurodivergence often the first port of call for a parent who's who's managing a child with the symptoms is to look at what can we do in the home to create new boundaries around behavior and then how are we going to manage these mood swings?

33:29Whereas actually, this needs to be the first port of call, looking at diet and making those tweaks before we do anything, I would say. For a lot of children, I think that people are looking and thinking that child's got something wrong with them. Or I've heard some people, you know, teachers have said, oh, you know, that child, they don't speak when I talk to them or they go under the desk and they might have ASD. And I'm like, well, let's just talk about the fight, flight, freeze response because that child might go mute because they're absolutely petrified at being asked a question that they don't know the answer to, or they really are so frightened and overwhelmed by being at school that they've gone under the desk because their nervous system, not them, they haven't even thought about it, their nervous system has driven it.

34:11There's nothing wrong with that child. So children are children. Now, I also know, and I did the ADHD, I paid to have a test done for me because I thought, A, it'd be quite interesting, and B, because I have a lot of the symptoms. I mean, I do. I've probably got all the things. I think most of us. I like to think, what I tend to say is that, look, we are all on a spectrum. Some of us will be brilliant at creative things and our brain is less good at this. Our brains are all wired differently. It doesn't mean to say there's something wrong with us. The word disorder is the problem here, right? Yes, I talk a lot with Drop the Disorder.

34:48It's a great organisation and they do a lot of work in this regard. I think we there's a huge compassion I know for parents it is terribly distressing when their children are behaving in ways that they just don't understand hopefully with my book this is what I want to do is to sort of say please let's not look at children as having a problem but there is something that is distressing them and once we can get into that a lot of these big behaviors will disappear they will disappear I work with children all the time they disappear so or at least dissipate so I think coming in my message really is let's let's try to lose the labels if we can I understand that they can help because they can sometimes give us a sense of ah okay so I can put my child in that but it can be quite debilitating for children then because people either over expect or don't expect so much of them when these kids are brilliant their brains my brain works brilliantly but it's not great accounts you know it's absolutely awful but let's work with our children with what they're brilliant at for starters if children are behaving in a dysregulated way let's not look at it that it's a symptom of adhd let's look at it as a symptom of emotional dysregulation.

36:04We can work with that. So there is also a real muddle around children who have experienced trauma. And they are, so for example, we might have a boy, I use an example in the book, a boy who's being bullied and his parents are going through a very acrimonious divorce. It's just an example. Now, he then gets violent in the playground because he's being bullied. So he needs to make himself bigger to fend the bullies off. And he's also thinking that the divorce is his fault. So he's experiencing a huge amount of shame. Now he then gets diagnosed as ADHD because his actions are very dysregulated. If we stop to ask him what was going on for him right then, what's going on for you right now?

36:52You know, what is going on in your world and how are you actually coping? This is the power threat meaning framework that Lucy Johnston has created. if we ask him what his story is and understand him we understand that he's being bullied and he's making himself bigger and punching before he gets punched and that he's having a really really traumatic time with his parents divorce if we diagnose him with adhd and maybe put him on medication are we really helping him so we're doing our children a great disservice if we're not stopping to look at the reasons why. And without, and until science becomes more advanced, we cannot definitively say that anyone definitively has something called ADHD.

37:35It's not even really a medical, it's a description, it's an umbrella term. So I really, really want us all to think very carefully. I get that it can be helpful to have it because it can give us more support and And Lord knows parents do need more support. I get that. So I'm not discriminating. I'm just saying I don't want children out there to be expressing their distress and then just being told it's because they've got ADHD or ASD. I want to know that these children are being seen and heard and not just put on medication because very often, and again, I talk about medication in the book, doesn't help long term.

38:12It might help in the short term, but it doesn't help long term. We have the evidence for that. so I really would rather that parents sort of say okay well I'm having a tough time my child's clearly having a tough time I need help can I have help yes this is how it should be you do need we all need help and support when we ask for it but actually if it's about emotional dysregulation we can bring our children to the point where we can really get beneath what's driving the behavior and very often very often we'll find that it will it will dissipate and I do quote Nadine Burke Harris in the book who's this incredible paediatrician in the States and she said of a hundred children that she had been sent that she was said these kids have got ADHD she said only three would she consider and even then she said you know but only three so we really need to understand what's going on for our children and ask not what's wrong with you but what's going on for you okay I love you we need to ask not what's wrong with you but what's going on for you that is such a brilliantly succinct way of looking at this whole topic I just think that's the most compassionate approach that any of us can take on whether we've got a neurodivergent diagnosis or not but particularly when we're trying to understand either our own or other people's experience of neurodivergence I just love all those episodes and I'm so grateful and just sort of generally chuffed that I get to have these sorts of chats.

39:40It's so interesting and often after these conversations I can't stop thinking about them and they properly change how I go about my business and also just how I think about our brilliant brains. If listening to this has made you realise you didn't catch someone's episode in full the first time round there'll be links to all of the episodes featured here in the show notes. I would so love for you to share your own experiences on Instagram so we can carry on this much-needed conversation. We are over on at Happy Place Official. For now, though, a massive thank you again to Dr Shai, Mashru, Gemma Stiles, Alex Partridge, Jordan Stephens, Lucinda Miller and Kate Silverton.

40:23Thanks to the brilliant producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you gorgeous humans.

40:50so

40:56hi this is nox from the popcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

41:27Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh and Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion. Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, Madewell, and more. And the best part? Free shipping, free returns, and easy in-store pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between.

42:04And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room, listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. out, that's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.