Vogue Williams: My health anxiety is bad! How to stop catastrophising

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotten today we are heading back to this year's festival in Tatton Park with Vogue Williams With anxiety, you can, loads of people, you find a different way to manage it and it can only be managed. It will always come back and go away and come back and go away. And for me, I wanted to do therapy, which I do. I was struggling to like sleep properly. And then if I wasn't sleeping, I was more anxious the next day. So I couldn't really get to the point where I was able to do even therapy because I'd just be going around like this the whole time, clenching my fists and just being anxious.

0:34So then I got beta blockers off my doctor. So that kind of allowed me to calm down a little bit and then to be able to actually think about what was making me so anxious and then to try and deal with it through that way. Oh, thanks to you gorgeous humans who came to the Happy Place festivals this summer. Tatton Park, which we've just had the other weekend, was an almighty event. I loved every minute. We had weird weather. It was either pissing with rain or glorious sunshine. But you know what? You hearty northerners, you amazing Cheshire dwelling beauts. I know not all of you came from Cheshire, but many of you live in Cheshire.

1:09You were so amazing at just cracking on with the yoga, come rain or shine, meditating, whether it was pissing down or boiling in the tent, listening to talks, shopping, eating, you just cracked on. And I love you for that. It was an amazing celebration. And I'm so grateful. It was beautiful to meet so many of you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now onto our live podcast, which we recorded at the Happy Place Festival. Gorgeous TV presenter Vogue was the first guest on the talk stage this year. So we had this chat at 9am. First thing, Vogue was terrified no one would turn up so early, but the tent was absolutely rammed.

1:45We were both very awake and very chatty. So we talked about a lot of things. I mean, I could talk to Vogue for weeks. I sort of, I feel like we need to continue this chat, but over a tequila because we had so much to chat about. We talked about what make her and Spencer compatible that she was very honest about. We also talk about alcohol, her relationship with alcohol. There's alcoholism in the family so she's kind of been dealing with her own relationship with alcohol in a really level-headed grounded way. We talk about intrusive thoughts and panic attacks which I know many of you also deal with.

2:21I've certainly dealt with in huge bouts over the is. Health anxiety, we talk about body image, aging. I mean, it's just nonstop changing subject matters in the best way. And I really hope you love this chat.

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4:45okay here it is this is the show

5:08there you go Jess have a seat I'm totally blown away that like I thought I saw nine o 'clock I was like why is she giving me such a shit slot I was like no one's going to be there at nine this is amazing have you met this lot like we're early birds we don't like staying up late us lot do we no this festival finishes at 6pm thank you very much by half 6 I will be in bed watching my laptop watching obviously Megan with Love so thanks very much do you watch this? yeah do you? obsessed what really? absolutely obsessed with it can't get enough in a good way I mean in all the ways oh okay In all the ways.

5:48Yeah, like this is the crowd. This is what we're talking about. This isn't me. There's no booze here. You can't, there's no drunk idiots. It's just gorgeous. It's stunning. And I've just given up drink again. Yes. I do that every time I drink. I give up then after it. Yeah. I'm a week in. Eight days in actually. I'm back on it. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm loving it. I got a big old red wine in bed last night. I did see a half bottle of vodka back there. I wondered who owned it. Oh, look, I'm so happy you're here. I'm delighted. I'm so thrilled you're here. I was thinking back, I remember the first time I met you really clearly because I was covering for Lorraine, which you can't cover for Lorraine.

6:25That's impossible. You can't be Lorraine. She's Lorraine. So it's a nightmare job. But you were a guest on the show, which was so wonderful. And you had just been on, what was that show called? The skiing one? Oh, The Jump. The Jump. God, I loved that show. You'd just been on The Jump and there were all these rumours going about about you and Spencer. and they were like, you've got to ask her about Spenny. This is so awkward. And you gave a really diplomatic answer that you were sort of friends or whatever. Now look at you. I know. Well, we were trying to be friends then. I wasn't really lying to you because for the first time in my life, I was properly single because I'm like relationship girl.

7:05That's me. And I was dreading being single and then I was like, I'm going to try it for as long as I can. I was really enjoying it. I'd only gotten to the point of not feeling depressed and alone. I was like, this is actually amazing. And it was the first time since I'd been 20 that I was single. So I was like, I really have to stay single. I have to do this for a while. And then I met Spencer and I was like, it was kind of like, we're together. No, I don't want to be with you. We're together. Like it was like that. Like we weren't, what's it called? Exclusive. And what was it about Spenny? Persistence, I'd say.

7:42no he is like he's not because obviously when I met him I thought he was like what he was on Made in Chelsea I nearly didn't say the name because he hates it so much but I was like that show um and he's not like that he's just not like that at all he's kind he's generous he's great crack I mean he's full on I just met a guy who works with him back there I was like how many times has he texted you today he's like full on like that but he's just have you ever met him Oh, I've worked with Spencer. We did a talk together maybe five months ago, four months ago. Oh, really? We've done a few things like that together.

8:17I love Spencer. Yeah, he's really, really good going. And he's hilarious. Yeah, and he doesn't mind taking the piss out of himself, and he doesn't mind when I take the piss out of him, which is very important, I think, in a relationship. Have you been together, what, seven years, eight years? Seven years, yeah. Oh, no, maybe, I don't know. Seven years married, seven years married. Got my anniversary, no doubt. Seven years married, eight years together, I think. And you've got three gorgeous babies. Yeah, yeah. Why do you think you are compatible? Why do you work as a couple? I think that genuinely, we kind of like doing the same things a lot.

8:49He, at the start, we kind of struggled a bit because he was obviously a big drinker back then. He's not so much anymore. And now he's off it. And sometimes when he goes off it, he's real like, you should look, folks, look at your drinking. And I'm like, piss off. How many times did you drink in Spain? And I'm like, were you counting? But I think we're compatible because we do enjoy doing the same stuff. He's very ambitious and he's supportive. So to meet somebody that's supportive of your job and like, we don't want each other's job either. You know what I mean? Because we're in the same kind of industry.

9:24I don't want to do what he does and he doesn't want to do what I do. And you're not going to catch me in Jordan running 30 marathons. What is he up to? I know. I think he might be trying to get away from us. well I mean we are at the end of the summer holidays it's one hell of a juggle how's that been it has been very full-on but I my mum lives in Spain so she it gets too hot for her now so she leaves there in in June we're trying to get her out earlier every year and so then we go down and steal her house so I was there for six weeks with them and it's lovely because I can work from there and it's like it was really nice to just get away with them from them

10:07but you know when you're like you're so desperate to stop the school run and all the like logistics and everything like that and then when it's time to come back you're excited to go back into a kind of routine with them oh yeah and they're excited about it as well they need their mates the other people disciplining them that's where i'm at yeah and i mean i i can't be taking them to the driving range and things like that when they go absolutely insane and just were screaming the place down yesterday so they're ready to go back we're all ready we're all ready for this september reset now i feel like the happy place festival is a bit of you like we see a lot of this online that you love looking after yourself and just essentially i think the whole well-being thing is so misleading a lot of the time it doesn't have to be one thing it's just simply about feeling good and that's certainly a priority for you oh 100 like I see people like you see all that biohacking kind of stuff now like I just want to feel good still have fun eat crap when I want to eat crap like it's all it really is about balance and I think that people you kind of feel like if you go way to one end of the scale you're not going to be able to to keep it up and to and to feel good all the time I just try and prioritize sleep mainly I'm obsessed with sleep I love talking about sleep and I love sleeping Are you good at it?

11:24I'm really good at it. That's great. I currently have two fitness rings on because I'm like, I wonder which one measures it better. That's hilarious. They're competing. They're competing. This one I prefer because it gave me more sleep last night. But yeah. It gave you more sleep. It said I got more. Hilarious. I can be quite, like I'm scared of my health sometimes. So when I do drink, like I'll be really worried that I've ruined my body or something. So that's why I'll stop drinking for a while. But I would describe myself as a binge drinker. I know that sounds terrible, but I don't really I don't drink very often.

11:59So if you don't, when you do drink, it's like you're drinking. Yeah. But again, it's balance, isn't it? Like you just said, making sure that you keep keep that in check. You've been really open over the years about anxiety and panic attacks. Where are you at with that at the moment? I'm actually this week is a good week. The last two weeks weren't good weeks. And I think what I do is that's why I'm not going to drink for a while, because that really gets it for me. And I feel like if I train, like people think I'm insane because I love, when I go on holidays, I don't want to go on holidays, drink loads, not train, just eat rubbish and go home feeling crap.

12:34So I'll always go away and I'll train and people think that's kind of weird, but I just, it makes me feel like it kind of regulates me. It makes me feel better. It's really good for anxiety, I find. But I do have, I have medication as well. If I'm having a really bad time with it, I'll take medication. And there's no problem with that either. No, I love having a little backup of it, especially if I'm hungover as well. Yeah, if like... All the pills. I mean, why struggle if you're having a terrible time? Again, I think it's all personal choice. There should be no judgment around any of this stuff.

13:07I took antidepressants for a while and if you're in a bad way, you've got to do what you've got to do. I feel like with anxiety, loads of people, you find a different way to manage it and it can only be managed. It will always come back and go away and come back and go away. And for me, I wanted to do therapy, which I do kind of irregularly now. But I was struggling to like sleep properly. And then if I wasn't sleeping, I was more anxious the next day. So I couldn't really get to the point where I was able to do even therapy because I'd just be going around like this the whole time, clenching my fists and just being anxious.

13:39So then I got what they're called beta blockers off my doctor. So that kind of allowed me to calm down a little bit and then to be able to actually think about what was making me so anxious and then to try and deal with it through that way. But I wouldn't say it gets that bad all the time. I think when you go through big life disturbances really is probably when it gets the worst. So what would you say sort of triggers it on a every kind of week basis if there's stuff that's bothering you? What triggers it? I could catastrophize anything. like I booked flights to Turkey the other day and like the flights didn't go through so then I decided it was a really bad omen and then I was really anxious that like I shouldn't be going to Turkey because there was a reason they didn't go through and just like if my mind is anxious I'll catastrophize absolutely anything and think the worst is going to happen with anything and you you kind of can't stop it so I just after a while I realized how ridiculous it is and then it's only after you've kind of come through it or if you're having a panic attack and like Spencer my husband when he doesn't get anxiety so like when he first saw me having a panic attack he was like what have I married and then the next day you're kind of like sorry about that because it's so it just consumes you and you can't get out of it and you're just you're you're just in a panic basically and you can't stop it until it kind of runs its course and you exhaust yourself in a way yeah spirals I mean those I mean for me it could be like intrusive thoughts almost where you believe like this is a fact this awful thing is going to happen and you can't get out of that cycle of believing it and i think even in the moment you can intellectually tell yourself i know what this is like this is an intrusive thought it's not real or i'm totally catastrophizing but it doesn't stop the manifestation of the panic bit you just have to like you say go through it go with it yeah kind of write it out i think that like i know that anxiety almost feels like a newer thing but like I remember back in Ireland it'd be like oh her nerves are at her like that's what they used to say about like any anyone I remember my parents friends and stuff like that somebody who would have just had anxiety but it was called your nerves are at you and I think that now life is full for everybody we're all trying to do a million things and go a million miles an hour and be the best at everything that we're doing and actually it's causing more stress and more anxiety and you just kind of have to be a bit nicer to yourself and I think that's why trying to look after yourself in certain kind of ways, trying to like be healthy in certain kinds of ways, it's just helpful for how fast paced our lives are now.

16:10Are you good at being nice to yourself? Yeah, kind of. I feel like I'm always on the move. I think the juggle with parenting and working, you always have that guilt. No matter what you're doing, if you're doing more of one and more of the other, like even yesterday, my son was like, why do you have to go to work? And I just said, I've been with you all day. Yeah. and I had to go do a podcast for an hour, but you kind of, you'll just always have that guilt and that causes anxiety as well because you're just like, I wish that you could just stay with them and do stuff all the time, but that's not good for them either.

16:46They need to be going out and doing their own stuff. See, right? Yeah. And they are fine. I think that's the other worry we have. It's like, they're not fine unless I'm with them 24-7. They're fine. They're absolutely fine. And actually, like, I love my job. I love work. I get such satisfaction out of it that I it's kind of like for me it's like a day off going to work I just really enjoy it and and they're happy out and you can kind of try and make it all work but it's always that thing where you're like trying to balance it out yeah I don't think it's possible to ever find a level of peace with that I'm not sure anyone does I think it's my mom I was like did you ever feel bad when you worked no she never actually Lynn's like that yeah not an ounce of parenting no no no no very much like off you go to school and we were this is what i sort of i look back at and i think i wish i could just do 80s parenting yeah 80s parenting was so great my mom would be like bye and i'd just walk to school probably from the age of like 10 yeah and did she ever like obviously we have now like apps with like what's going on and at the school and google classrooms and all this stuff as if she knew what i was doing at school as if she had a clue or like said do your homework or even went to parents evening oh it's a waste of time I'm not going to that fine do you want to know how I'm doing at school not really no we have we're like I'm at the school more than my kids are what's going on yeah I know it is wild but I was only I was talking to my sister on our podcast the other day and it was like what did you do when you were bored as a child and I was like we were never bored we were just we were kind of just like kicked out of the house and like we were just told to go and play and we'd go and play we come back for lunch we go and play again we go back and it's I do find that a shame with my kids because we live in London and it's just it's kind of not safe to do that but when we were younger there was none of this like going to all these classes and things like that but even my friends in Ireland are like you do what?

18:42like because I do there's so many different things in London I think off the school staff yeah I think you can sometimes do too much but you're always trying to keep them entertained where we were just kind of booted out just doing our own thing but there is this sort of like new weird pressure that again I don't suppose our parents had that your kids had to be doing all these extracurricular things and I think we then feel like oh my god am I not giving my kids enough exposure to different things and I always take it back to did David Bowie go to alternative music club after school of course he bloody didn't he just like found his own thing like what are we worrying about I know, I know.

19:21I suppose you're always just trying to help them out. But I don't know if anyone else's kids are like that. But if my kids stay in and like, let's say we're up at half six in the morning. Yesterday is an example. By nine, they're just tearing at each other and like ripping the place apart. And I'm like, we have to, I had to take them to the playground. To get out. Nine o 'clock yesterday morning. I was like, they have to be out. They have to be doing something. They just get bored. It's also the arguing, the fighting. The fighting drives me insane. I can't bear it. They'll argue over anything.

19:52It could be like a stone. That was my stone. It's a stone, mate. What are you arguing about? Everything. Why do they love rocks? Rocks, anything. The piles of rocks they have in the book here. I'm like, why do I have to bring those? And sticks. I don't want them in the house. They just argue over everything. It's actually a bloody nightmare. I know that when you were writing your book, which we have very perfectly placed here, you were assuming that a lot of your anxiety was something that perhaps came from a relationship breakdown in your 20s but actually from writing this you can chart it back more so to childhood and I guess involving like your dad's story and his ill health you think that might be where your anxiety began yeah I'd say it did I think writing this book I learned so much about myself about anxiety about all those kind of things and I did think it was from a big breakup that I had because I think that kind of triggered it to a really dark kind of place but I know any English people reading this book my childhood is not that mental we all had that childhood in Ireland but Spenny read it and he was like Jesus it's traumatic it's not but I think that I grew up my parents divorced when I was about six and my dad was always sick from as young as I can really remember and I think it was very difficult always going in and out of hospital always worrying if he was going to die so I do think a lot was put on me at a young age my parents well I'd say more so my mom's side hated each other and that was kind of difficult for us to navigate because they didn't want to hear anything about him they didn't want to know anything about him I'd say it was annoying that we went to see him and I think it was it was difficult for them but it was difficult for us and we just had to navigate a lot from a very young age but I think that's probably why I'm so close to my sister and my brothers because we kind of just really stuck together in all of it and um but I definitely think that that's where the anxiety must have started because just the stress of seeing my dad sick and the first time being taken in to see him when I was 11 and he was just hooked up to all these machines I was like gosh um so I'd say that that's probably where it all started yeah is that giving you a sort of element of health anxiety because that's again a newer term but one that you know I meet so many people through this job but also just in my personal life who have listened to a podcast and they've gone oh my god that's what I have I just didn't know it had a name because it's quite a niche anxiety health yeah I do I get that I'm just I'm constantly this will tell you if you're um what your heart health is and mine's gone down it was better and I'm always like trying to make it better but I just a little bit of health anxiety but a little bit of I just want to feel good I want to feel healthy I want to I remember I did I did gladiators this year so I did I did the has that been on yet no it's on it it's on oh I'm watching that on New Year's Day but it was the first time I was like oh sorry did you have to run up that travelator at the end yeah I want to do that so bad it's so hard of course it is like you know the way you always laugh at people when they're doing it yeah not until you've tried it yeah when you fling off the other end of it so fast but I did that and that was the first time I thought oh my god I'm old like my body is feeling absolutely battered and I had to I hate hotel baths I'm really weird about things in hotels so I don't like the throws on the covers I'm like I just have to kick them off because I know so many people have touched them I'll never I do I'm like and I'll never get into it doesn't matter And you're not getting in the bath because other people have laid in it.

23:30Other people's bums have been on the bath. And they don't clean it as well as I would clean it at home. Please tell me you travel with bathroom spray. Please. Are you scrubbing that bath? I just don't get in the bath. I'm like, ugh. But I was so sore after Gladiators. I had to get in the bath. And I remember being like, oh. I actually showered after it. I was like, ugh. I shower off the bath. That's great. But yeah. but that's the first time I felt old so I was like I'm really like on this buzz of trying to improve my running because I run like a snail and I'm quite happy with that like I just I like to run and talk to people but I'm trying to I'm always trying to up my game a little bit so I can feel healthier and stronger I can't wait to watch you on Gladiators I love watching Gladiators oh well I'm sure you can't say too much don't get that excited no I am I'm very very excited it was so fun though like when I was doing it I just thought having those women on TV for our kids to see and they're just strong and amazing and just powerful.

24:30Did you have to do the one when you climb up the big wall? That's my worst nightmare. Having someone chase me up the wall. Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to say what I did. Right, no, that's fine. I won't pressurize you on that one. Okay. And anyone who booms into me, I'll tell you. I'm saying so, yeah. Basically I'll tell everyone. So, but just not on a mic. Separately. Hi, this is Nox from the Popcast with Nox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

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26:49Obviously, you know, your dad had ill health, but you said he lived life to the max. He lived really, really fully. How do you think that impacted you? Because you're seeing someone living life to the max, having a great time, but you're also seeing the impact it's having on them negatively. I think that some people just want to live their life in a certain way and that's fine. Like he was very fond of the drink and like it was great for us when we got ice and nicked so much booze off him. But like I remember when he'd had two heart attacks in two days and he was in hospital and just when he was able to start standing up, he was caught smoking out the window of the bathroom.

27:27And I was like, this is bad. And he would just, he was just, he was never going to give up. And I think he got to the age of 68 and I think he was very lucky to do that. and some I still even know with all the wellness and nice things going on I just can't imagine him ever giving up smoking or slowing down on the boozing he used to put butter on his chips wow yeah that actually sounds so good it was good it was like I don't think I ever saw him walking anywhere where he never he'd never have been in a gym or didn't really do sports or anything so the fact that he even got to that age was quite amazing but I think some people just are like that you can try and make them be a little bit healthier because I always think if you just even if you're in the gym and you just do a tiny bit or if you just walk somewhere or take the stairs you just you naturally become fitter and you just it makes you feel so much better about yourself and I think especially when you get to 40 I think that's the age that you have to start doing little bits of weights and things like that it's really good for your yeah you just yeah me too and it's the hips it's a lot of like i'm having to do a lot of like getting those hips moving in the morning because i am stiff i know yeah and i hate stretching it's so boring it is so boring yeah it's so good i know but i always avoid it unless i'm really in bits yeah it's the strength i think as we get older it's the flexibility the strength you're a big yoga head though i do i do love i do love yoga but it is it's it's the more we have to be in the right frame of mind because if you're kind of i don't know if i'm feeling really like i've got excessive energy i need to like run or do something like yoga you've got to be i think in that headspace to i'm never in that headspace for yoga well we've got a yoga tent here babe we'll chuck you in there later i'll get kicked out i went the last time i did yoga i did hot yoga oh that's hard and i was like i was obviously everyone was having a great time i'd never been there before and i was just like, Jesus, is it meant to be this hot?

29:26And then eventually the teacher was like, I think you shouldn't be. Yeah, stop talking. So I had to leave. I was like, I'm obviously not made for this. No, I don't like hot yoga. It's rotten. It smells. It's so hard. Oh yeah, if you're not getting in a bath, how are you standing on that floor? I brought my own mask. Yeah, good. Too right. I'm going to share a mask. I think I've always been weird about, even pre-COVID, I'm a bit weird about germs. I wish everyone could just keep wearing the face mask okay so if you see Vo today don't touch her because she's not here for hugs just like a polite wave and that is where we're calling it well in Ireland we kind of in England like you guys love kissing each other Jesus yeah and you do too yeah we've gone very French in Ireland we're kind of like hiya and I was like that's it you just give a little ta yeah yeah no we go right in for the snug we absolutely love it have you ever met like my family hang out with a Swiss crowd you'd be all night kissing them three kisses on each three three i've got time no you have to do it or you're rude you're like oh god it's so late we went to christmas with them once i was like are we ever gonna have dinner i used to do it at the end as well i was like fuck's sake don't go in for three kisses um something else that you write about in the book is your relationship with grief and how you were on the run from it for a while your dad died when you were in your early 20s and then this coincided with a big life change for you moved to the other side of the world and you were slightly on the run from it would you say yeah I think I'd broken up from not a great relationship and then my dad died and then I met somebody who lived in Australia and I was like see ya and then I kind of just went and it was really unlike me because I was such a home bird and the whole thing, like I don't regret it, but looking back, I can see that I just wanted to get away from just feeling sad.

31:22Everything reminded me of my dad over there. Like I wanted to get away from the breakup and I'd met somebody that I was getting on really well with and like Australia was the furthest place I could probably go. So I went there and it was good enough at a time, but eventually everything catches up on you and it doesn't really matter where you are. The same problems will still be there. So I was in Australia, still not really feeling great, but also being away from my family and also probably being in a relationship that I shouldn't be in trying to make it work and then yeah kind of all went tits up from there yeah yeah but like you say it catches up do you did you when did the grief hit can you pinpoint it I'd say it was probably a year into it and like you know grief is a funny thing because now I kind of I would still get quite like I'm lucky that it's I haven't lost too many people oh god there's no wood okay I was going to touch touch your head oh there we go there we go three times I think grief is a funny thing because eventually you kind of get to a stage where you'll still think about somebody all the time but instead you're just thinking about nice things you're not thinking but then you do get to you're like oh they would have loved this they would have loved that but it becomes less sad and actually you're just like you just kind of deal with it but when you're in the like throes of grief it's I think it's really hard but like I almost think when you go through a really bad breakup that's like a level of horrendous grief and I know somebody going through a breakup now and it's just it's horrible to see just the sadness and just it's kind of like a despair so I think a grief from a breakup and a grief from somebody dying is kind of well you had both going on you were getting divorced in your 20s you were very young to get married and dealing with the loss of your dad how how did you get through that period what helped you I think that's when I started taking beta blockers and I found that really helpful and then when I just kind of came to terms with the facts like because you know when you're like I was still living with somebody I was getting divorced from and then I just I got to a point where I was like right I need to move out like create my own kind of life and I had a friend that I moved in with and oh my god he was so messy and I was like this is I don't know what's worse here will I go back he used to make chicken for his lunch right at the start of the week and he I know he'd make chicken because it would just every handle of the covers would be greasy.

33:44I'd be like, ah! But, no, I just, getting through that, I think as well that you have the huge embarrassment because you've such a massive, epic failure in front of, I felt like, I'm sure nobody really gave a shit, but like, you feel like everyone's just kind of like, oh, saw that coming. I mean, they were like that as well, but particularly my family, they were like, oh, how surprising. When I was getting married the first time, I tell my brother and he lived in Australia. He was like, I can't make it back, but don't worry. I'll go to the next one. Brilliant. And he did. He went to the next one.

34:21Very good. That's amazing. But also, you know, you were in the public eye at this time. It was the start of your relationship being in the public eye. I mean, it's not fun. It's really not fun. It's not. Do you know what? That was probably, I think, I think in this, in this relationship, that I'm in now, it's probably, it feels almost worse some of the stuff that like you're kind of dealing with. And back then, I suppose a breakup is easier, but when people are just like rumours and stuff flying around and like shit that you know is just untrue and you just, you can't respond to it because it just makes it worse.

34:58That's the pits. It's so frustrating. And you have to ignore it. You have to ignore it. There's nothing, and you have to block out that noise, that incessant noise. And it can draw, It affects you. No matter what you do, it will affect you and it will affect your relationship. And it's very difficult to go through something like that. But going through the breakup, I think it was just really embarrassing. And I was so glad when I'd kind of like gotten away from that and started. That's when I was like, I need to be single for a while, which I hated. And then I loved it. And I thought it was so empowering to be single and to just be on my own and figuring out life on my own and living on my own.

35:33Well, I was living with a chicken. Chicken fingers. But like just being like having to look after myself. I really enjoyed all of that and I liked it. And how do you deal with just being in the public eye in general? You know, it's not an easy thing having people like you say, whether it's rumours or just thinking they know who you are. Do you cope well with it? I think we like, and it's the same with Svenny. We really, we really have a small circle. We have a small circle of people that we spend a lot of time with. We spend a lot of time with our family and stuff like that. and we have really amazing friends and people that I can trust like with everything, with anything.

36:12So we just try and keep it like that and anytime that we kind of veer out of that is when stuff seems to go around because I just think that certain times people just, they're different to us and I'd rather not be in the public eye in that sense. I have my friends outside of the public eye and when I'm working and stuff like that like I get on really well with everybody that I work with but my friends are my friends since I've been 12 and they're kind of the people that I spend most of my time with and and my family and stuff like that and I think having that kind of safe space and that really like steady group of people around me is very helpful I mean obviously you love like I do absolutely love what I do my job I I get a kick out of it I spring out of bed most mornings I feel incredibly lucky that I get to do something I feel passionate about.

36:59But that side of it, I really still struggle with after all of these, like, I don't know how long I've been as a teenager, sort of in and out of the public eye. And I mean, probably once a week, I think, I can't do this anymore. I'm going to open a cat sanctuary and I'd be quite happy. I'm not even joking. That would be so much nicer. But when you love what you do, it is just a downside to it. Yeah, it is just part of it. And I think that you can kind of block it out to a point. and even with stuff online and social stuff, I just try and ignore it because people will say things, people will like, what was that site again?

37:37The one that's just gone down, Tattle. Oh God, yeah. Like that is just, that just shows how dark people can be and you have to kind of feel sorry for people like that, that just want to say horrible things about people they don't know for no reason and I'd avoid all of that kind of stuff. I never really see it but with my Instagram, I feel like, I don't know, about you but i've such a nice group of people following me and like and as well yeah lovely you're all sound gorgeous well they're your followers heavenly they love you too otherwise they'd be doing yoga or something not after what i've been saying about it exactly but i think as well from doing podcasts like that people get to see what you're actually like and and when people come up to me and they and they listen to the pods and stuff like that i'm like I could probably go on the piss with you, because they're just great for them.

38:27They're the same kind of like-minded people. So I feel like in that sense, I've found the people that I like, that I want to be around. Well, I think people also know with you, I love your podcast with Joanne. Joanne's been on Happy Place. I just think you two together are magic, and I howl with laughter, and you cover every topic. But people know that you're not bullshitting them. You're both being completely yourselves. You're always going to be honest when you're talking about a subject. Do you ever, because I think we're probably quite similar in that fact that I don't want to lie. I don't want to cover over the truth.

39:00I want to talk about things that I feel deeply passionate about or I feel are important or sometimes not important, but I'd rather just give it an honest take. Do you ever worry about that or regret things that you've said? Oh, I mean, well, sometimes I think when I do my podcast, well, with Joanna, I do one with my sister as well. I don't think you can try and not say stuff because the flow will be gone. Like we'll talk for it. We could do an hour of chatting and it gets cut down to a 40, 45 minute podcast. I listen back to all the edits and sometimes I'm like, Jesus, take that out. But sometimes things get left in and I'm like, I don't really care.

39:38Like I said something about a lip flip the other day. A what? A lip flip. So it's when you get Botox just here. So your lip kind of goes through that a bit. But then I saw it written about and I was like, oh my God, they're basically making out like I've had a facelift or something so there's certain things like that I'm like shit I probably shouldn't have said that um and now I've said it again but there's certain things that like I see in the papers and I'm like oh god I there was a I think Spenny gets kind of the brunt of it because it's usually something about him and I don't mean it I only say it because it's quite funny I said once that he overdosed on cold sore medication but I thought he did and then there was one article saying that he died and stuff I was It's like, it had gone really far.

40:23So certain things like that, I'm like, I try not to involve too many other people now, just in case they get written about and they don't like it. Well, because of course, when you say something with a certain cadence and tone and people are saying, oh, that is a joke. And then when it's in a paper, it's not. It's in black and white. And you're like, oh, no, I didn't mean it like that. You know, it's a whole other thing. It's horrible. I mean, do you care if people like you? This is something that I'm deeply fascinated about because I've had such a weird relationship with people liking me or not.

40:53And I think at times it feels like in this job, it is survival. If you're not likable, then you don't have a job. So it's sort of, it's more heavily weighted than it should be perhaps. I think everybody wants to be liked. Like no one wants to be disliked by people. You want to be a nice person that people want to be around. But I mean, I don't mind if, like not everybody is going to like me. And like, I probably find me annoying sometimes. I find myself annoying. and I'm me. Yeah. I do. Sometimes. And I know that as well because my brother and Spencer were bitching about me once and they sent it to our group.

41:28I was like, excuse me. Oh no, Wednesday. Yeah. What were they saying? God, she's asking about the bins again. I was like... I love it. I know because my brother used to live with me and then I kicked him out. I didn't kick him out, by the way. I loved him living there. But I think you do want to be liked in a certain... Like, you don't want to be hated. Like, I'd say it'd be hard. Remember that fella, Nasty Nick? I don't know why he's come to my mind. Oh, right, yeah, from Big Brother? Yeah. Why is he in my head? But, like, that must have been really hard for him. Oh, Nasty Nick. Like, everything just gave, everyone just gave him so much shit.

42:06And it was like, he was playing a game. And it's like, you asshole. He was hated so badly. And I'd say that must have been really hard. Or maybe he didn't give a shit. I love that this story from Big Brother 20 years ago is living in your head. No. You're just up at night worrying. Is Nasty Nick okay? I can't get to sleep worrying about his well-being. Is he going to be all right? Is he okay? I don't know. What's he doing? Probably panto somewhere, I should have imagined, or something. Playing the bad guy. Poor Nasty. No, I know, but I think as you get older, in that cliche sense, I'm sure many of you know, we have all different ages come to this festival and I have a very interesting chat, especially with women who are older than me, who go, honestly, the older you get, you just care less.

42:50And it is a sort of cliche that is true, that the older you get, you just care a bit less. You do. I think you become more comfortable with yourself. So like in my 20s, I'd obsess about like trying to have skinnier legs and like just being like, just not kind of hating my body and all that. Because I'm so tall, I hated it. I saw pictures of myself as well. So it was from like the age of 14 now and fancied me and the boys were like here and I was like this lurch beside them and uh and I think that when I got to like my 30s kind of mid 30s and you kind of just feel more comfortable not only in yourself but like your body and everything like that and you're comfortable in what you're doing you're kind of finding your feet a bit more in life well in my 20s I was wild you were wild too yeah yeah but I'm glad that we did that I'm happy for us I'm so I'm really happy for us we had so much fun and there's no phones so no one knows what we did thank god if social media had been around then we would not be working no i don't think we would nope cancelled were they still cancelling people back then yeah probably in a different way but yeah i am so glad and also i think you know this is the this is the interesting thing about well-being i was having a chat with a 27 year old in the summer yeah and it's I mean I'm much older than that and I was a sort of absolutely I I was stunned hearing what she had to say so obviously back when I was in my 20s it was sort of celebrated that you'd go out and get pissed up like go to watch bands and you know go to the pub and it was all part of that kind of culture especially in London there was like a big music scene and and it was really celebrated now apparently I don't know if this is just like a thing with with my 27 year old friend and her mates but apparently this is a big red flag now for men like we've gone back to the 50s and yeah and and they're like if you see a girl behind a dj booth it's a red flag she's not marriage material we want a pilates queen or whatever and there's this whole thing where yeah where now people in their 20s are being sort of force-fed this and this is my problem with well-being we're at a well-being festival but I've got massive issues with it because I think well-being is just about feeling all right I believe it is that simple you don't have to be good at anything or stop going out and having fun or curbing that side of yourself at all I think it can become so toxic when it's that extreme and one-sided and certainly in your 20s like if you're in your 20s any of you lovely lot oh my god go out on the piss.

45:25I mean, it's a dry festival, the irony, but when you've left here, feel free. Go to the pub. We only have it as a dry festival because it's not a great idea to do yoga when you're shit-faced. Or be in a meditation, like you know, freaking out whilst everyone is trying to have a peaceful time. That's the only reason. I'm not against drinking at all. But I think in your 20s, you've got to go for it. Have a great time. Have fun. I think though, even with my little brother, he's just turned 30 and they're like he's very different to what I would have been like like he drinks a little bit but like they don't really him and his friends wouldn't go that wild like not as wild as I would have gone they're kind of more about like just not drinking and all that kind of stuff yeah I think get it out your system yeah I did yeah me too my mom read that book and she's like what is wrong with you you can't say that I was like oh jesus don't read chapter 11 Sandra oh Sandra oh Sandra I know quite a thing for your mum to read that book yeah quite a thing I mean I was very worried about that because of all the stuff about my dad and I warned her about it and I gave her the book first and obviously I had to get legal written letters off anyone who's mentioned in the book that they could be mentioned and I think she probably found it a bit difficult but she was very nice about it yeah well of course you've written a book something to be very proud of are you doing a book signing at some point, I'm assuming.

46:49I am. I'm doing a book signing over there. So great. That's the book tent. So do get your book signed by Vogue. There's loads of brilliant authors in there all weekend, by the way. It's just, and there's some lovely, lovely books on sale. Love our Happy Place Book Club books, et cetera. I'd love to know where your happy place is, Vogue. I've just come from there. And poor Spenny, I was like, we should consider it. Where I live in Ireland. I love it. It's on the cliffs. It's in a little place called Hoth. And anyone who's from Hoth is obsessed with Hoth. and we think it's the only place to exist in the whole of Ireland.

47:21It's just really quiet. It's really calm. Everyone that I know since I was younger is there. My family's there. And it's just, it's lovely. It's so nice. It's so relaxing. What are your top things to do when you're there? Eat. Yeah. So really good seafood restaurants. Go on the cliff walk. Yeah. Not in the afternoon. A lot of tourists. So I'd suggest very early morning walks. And I was going to say sea swimming, but that would be a lie. but loads of people like that it looks great it looks it looks like they're having a fun time i bought water shoes i was like this is the summer this is it it hasn't happened it's now though no and i'm making it sound really tranquil and amazing but there are like 23 pubs in hoath and there's i think there's 8 000 people it's a very small peninsula so like if you go out there like if you want to go out on the piss it's a great place to go because it doesn't matter if you know nobody someone will make friends you'll end up at a party you'll get home at four o 'clock in the morning and you won't know how you got there yes i love it so it's quite fun like that just because the irish is so lovely and friendly and welcoming we do we i i kind of knock it back out of me because i'm going back to london but in ireland you're like hiya hiya hiya and it's like you don't know anyone but you just say hello to everyone but in london they're like you do that in london people like what is wrong who are you why are you saying hello to me yeah I think we do that up north right you're saying yeah yeah you do absolutely say hi to me correct beautiful thing well look thank you so much for being at the festival thank you for having me and thanks everyone for coming at 9am what a gorgeous crowd we're so grateful have a lovely book signing and thank you so much for being on the podcast give it up for Vogue Williams thanks everybody

49:03oh Vogue I love Vogue I mean I say this all the time but I do believe me and Vogue could be best pals. I think we need to hang out. But I love that chat. The great thing about Vogue is obviously because she has her own podcasts, she's incredibly good at storytelling. And I think that's also something to do with being Irish because any of you Irish listeners, you are the best storytellers out there. And also she's just funny and engaging. And because she's a podcaster, she's extremely honest. You know, it's just she tells the truth and she's incredibly authentic. that word's so overused but my god she really really is thank you vogue this is just the first of a number of high energy chats that we had at tatton park festival last week at the happy place festival so keep an eye on your feed in the next few days because there's going to be a special live edition of the happy place book club podcast and it's a really funny one in the meantime a massive thanks again to vogue to the producers of this episode anushka tate and basil ox to be and to you, you are the best.

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