What REALLY happens at therapy?

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. Today what really happens when you go to therapy. You get that sort of bird's eye view on your life where you get to see that, OK, I'm doing this because of that sort of echo of the past, but it leads to this. And then I go round around in this cycle. Therapy is the choices that you make in your life. Therapy is the boundaries that you create in your life. Therapy should make you feel uncomfortable. I said to my therapist, I said, look, I love our sessions, but it's really hard for me to take all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life.

0:31For me, it was really important to have a black woman because sometimes you want to just be able to talk and not feel like you have to explain. Because I don't talk about it and I don't look at it, it's been dealt with. You know, like all human beings, we plough. We plough through, it goes to the sides, builds up and eventually it will come in on top of us. I wonder if a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the year, you told yourself that 2025 is the year you're finally going to do therapy. But maybe you're still a bit hesitant because you're not completely sure what happens there and what it might feel like.

1:04So today, I've pulled together parts of some Happy Place episodes that I'm hoping will help get you a clearer idea of the benefits of therapy and in turn make you feel bold enough to send that first booking email. I have therapy every week. It's something that I definitely don't want to miss, don't feel I could miss actually. It's helped me insurmountably. It's kind of hard to explain. One of the reasons it's helped me is stuff from the past that still troubles me greatly that I need to constantly find tools to land on some peace with. That's a big one for me. And I think we've all got these little cycles, I guess, and habits we fall into.

1:53And mine is to be really bloody horrible to myself. I can be a right arsehole to myself internally and berate myself and fall into self-loathing. And some of that is related to the past. And some of it is just, I guess, a propensity that I've built up over the years. And therapy massively helps me not fall into a self-loathing spiral. It's helped me massively. I'd say it's changed my life actually and helps me navigate just the daily stuff today and I feel extremely fortunate and lucky that I get to go to therapy and also that I've got a bloody brilliant therapist. So look, first up, Dr. Julie.

2:33She's going to explain what the point of therapy is and isn't. Then Owen O 'Kane is going to pick up on that point with his own thoughts. Spoiler alert, therapy is going to be confronting and fucking uncomfortable. And Leanne Pinnock, she has learned the importance of finding the right therapist for you. You'll also hear from her bandmate, Perry Edwards, about why she now brings her therapist to work. She actually brought her along to that very podcast recording, which I thought was admirable and really cool and bold. And I thought, why have I not done that? MMA fighter Molly McCann has used therapy to unlock more sporting and career success after a difficult childhood.

3:12Then the fabulous DJ Fat Tony, he explains how he's changed as a result of trauma therapy. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh and Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion.

3:57Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, Madewell, and more. And the best part, free shipping, free returns, and easy in-store pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

4:31Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently, I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house, but I also know what isn't funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal.

5:09But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. NoCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to NOCD.com to book a free 15-minute call.

5:48They are here to help. Right, here's the show and I start by asking Dr. Julie what we can do when we just can't find a way to like ourselves. Maybe because of mistakes we think we've made or a particular experience that we've been through.

6:27I think there are no quick fixes when it's like that. So you can enhance a skill by using some of these exercises. But when there is something in the past that has fundamentally shift the way that you view yourself or the way that you view the world, there's no quick fix that's going to suddenly change your beliefs about yourself. And so that's when therapy can be really helpful to go through. And sometimes that can, you know, trauma therapy can be necessary to go back and sort of rewrite some of those narratives and work through and process some of those wounds, you know, when it's really kind of big events in your life or learning experiences that happened.

7:05Because also, I think people imagine that trauma is maybe one big event. And when they can't find one of those, they're wondering whether the rest of it counts as a trauma. But trauma can happen in small elements of time, small pieces of time in just how you were brought up. So you're learning experiences as a child or the society that you lived in, for example, or how you were discriminated against or whatever the circumstances are. Trauma can happen in little tiny pieces over time that chips away at what you believe about yourself and what you believe about the world. then you get into adulthood and and it holds you back hugely you know it's a survival response that helps you to get by when you're dependent on other people but as an adult it then holds you back from being able to function properly and I guess we react in the same way again and again to the point where we believe well this is just me this is how I react to certain situations this is there is no changing that's just who I am do you believe it's always possible for somebody to to change that pattern and that reaction.

8:08Yeah. And cognitive analytic therapy is fantastic for that. And it's really about understanding that the cycles that you were in as a child and your sort of key relationships with caregivers and things and how the way that you responded to people was part of your survival mechanism. So it helped you to get through whatever difficult environment that was. And then that's key learning. So we then go around those same cycles as an adult. But in adult relationships, the dynamics are different and the responsibilities are different. And suddenly those things that were really effective at helping you get through a difficult situation as a child, no longer work or actually cause you more problems.

8:48And you see that with things like people pleasing, you know, people will put every, and it's more than just being a nice person, right? It's putting everybody else first, even to the detriment of your own health and wellbeing to the point where it causes problems in your own health, but also resentment in relationships and things like that and struggling to assert your own needs or ask for what your needs to be met and in in cat therapy cat therapy for short so it's cognitive analytic therapy you literally kind of draw out the cycles of you know this happens then i do this and the consequence the unintended consequence that it leads to now and by doing that by understanding that you get that sort of bird's eye view on your life where you get to see that okay i'm doing this because of that sort of echo of the past but it leads to this and then I go ran around on the cycle where's the exit how do I get off what could I do differently and it all works in hindsight so you're talking about what happened last week or the week before but the more you do that the more you start to sort of almost visualize that bird's eye view that formulation in the moment and when you start to do that you open this kind of window of opportunity to maybe choose something different and break the cycle.

9:59Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't. But again, that's kind of changes slow and stuff like that. But it's the awareness that you can, isn't it? Because I think it's quite humbling to go, oh, look at this piece of paper. I'm quite simple. I do that, that and that every time. And then it ends in a pile of shit. And then you go, oh, I don't have to do that. So looking at that sort of setup, I think maybe we're all getting the result of therapy, if there is such a thing. So I know it's an ongoing process after you've even had a block of therapy. but we're getting that wrong because if we're all thinking after I've had therapy I will be happy yeah that is impossible because like you say it's ever undulating yeah we could be feeling happy right now doing this chat but then in an hour when you're stuck on the motorway in traffic and you're stressed out or my kid won't do his homework later on which is very normal circumstance in our house that then that dissipates and there's another emotion so what should if there is such a thing the end goal of therapy be?

10:56Peace? Contentment? No, I think sometimes those maybe don't even... I remember a supervisor once saying to me that the best outcome of therapy that she'd been to was over a year after therapy. So therapy is almost like a... I don't know, if you do a training course, for example, immediately after finishing that training course, you won't be at your best in using whatever it is you've learned. Several years later of using those things, you'll be even more accomplished than you were at the beginning so if you you know learn certain things in therapy and then you commit to to using those in your everyday life and you commit to continuing your whether it be recovery or something else then you will get better at doing that over time so you know the only way is up in that sense but yeah I think we have to kind of steer away from the idea that the top or the most desirable outcome is I'm going to feel pleasure and joy all the time because actually it's pretty it's pretty dangerous place to be right because that you know when you think about manic episodes for example somebody might feel happy all the time but their life might be falling into pieces around them so yeah and that kind of fruitfulness of of different emotions and the beauty in different emotions you appreciate those moments of happiness more or moments of peace more when, you know, for example, I was away in the mountains with my family last week and height still triggers huge anxiety in me.

12:25And so while I appreciated being there and I was happy to be there, chosen to be there, I still had that level of fear. So I was happy while I was also experiencing anxiety. When people think about therapy, they often think about talking and one of the things I'm arguing about really strongly is therapy is not just about talking it's one part of it therapy's doing yeah you know therapy is about who you surround yourself with therapy is the choices that you make in your life therapy is the boundaries that you create in your life it's a whole it's basically an overhaul of your entire life therapy should make you feel uncomfortable yeah if you're in therapy or you're doing anything that feels lovely and nice and it's then you're not having therapy.

13:07Do you know what? I don't think I'd ever really given that a thought or properly identified that feeling but one of the most powerful therapies I've done which is something I know that you also specialise. EMDR. EMDR. That is the most uncomfortable therapy I've ever done because I had to face up to stuff that I could barely say out loud that I didn't want to admit was true and I didn't want to relive it because it felt like it might be more real if I had to say these words out loud. But my God, I am now back driving on the motorway, which I couldn't do for five years, which is a long time sort of, you know, learn behavior repeated again.

13:45Nope, too scared. Nope, too scared. And the uncomfortableness of the therapy shifted something. It changed something. So I think it is so important that if you are thinking of trying therapy for the first time or even you using these self sort of soothing or it goes more than that, but these sort of empowering techniques. Getting started, knowing that you feel the discomfort and that you just sit with it. And it's not nice, but you don't abandon it straight away. You've got to go with it. It's a brilliant point because not feeling nice doesn't mean that it's wrong. No. And I think this is the one mistake because we're all kind of primarily hardwired to, you know, it's got to feel good.

14:23You know, we're obsessed by feeling good all of the time. I mean, we've both written books on happiness. But both of our books, you know, it's not just about fluffy happiness. You know, it's much, much more than that. And I think what we all have to get better at is when the other stuff comes in, the darker stuff, there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean that there's anything bad about you. It doesn't mean that there's anything terribly, you know, broken or damaged about you. It just means that it's part of your humanity. And the more you learn to start working with that stuff, and I know it sounds cliched, but that's where the real magic happens.

14:57because if we think something's wrong, then we run from it. Yeah. And of course, with emotions, particularly darker emotions, we think that they're wrong. Actually, they're not. Nothing terrible is going to happen. I see them as like a signpost. Difficult feeling comes up, you know, instead of running from it. I, you know, I think, all right, I'm going to be curious about what's happening here. Yeah. What's happening here at the moment. And I'm learning, you know, every day I'm learning, even in my own journey, about that openness around, okay, this is absolutely fine. because I think what most of us do is we get immersed in the story.

15:31So if we're feeling fearful, we're feeling low, we're feeling anxious, whatever the context might be, we then connect that to the narrative, the shame narrative, and then that becomes I'm rubbish, I'm not good enough, I'm crap, whatever the context might be, when actually you need to learn to segregate the two. These emotions, these thoughts that are coming up, they're not definitions of who you are. They don't define who you are. What they are is they're simply patterns that are playing out over and over and over again. And the incredible thing about good therapy is it will help you see that you can disconnect more and more and more from those narratives and then kind of disidentify with them.

16:11Looking to, again, that sort of like top tier level of musician who are sort of global, touring, look like they've got it all figured out. it is really liberating to hear that there are insecurities underneath and there are you know constant cognitive whirings of questioning yourself and there was a deeply sad bit in the book where you talk about this period of your career where you're obsessed with the idea of getting a nose job because you felt this discomfort in your own skin how how did you get through that period and come out going do you know what I actually really like myself I just remember constantly like comparing myself and like always feeling like the least desired and people will sometimes say oh but why did you feel like that sometimes it's just a feeling you know like it's just a freaking feeling um but yeah I would I wanted a nose strap I hate saying it oh I love my nose I'm so glad I didn't do it I really love my nose like it's just it's crazy but I think I obsessed with like looking around me and at these Eurocentric beauty features that are considered beautiful you know and feeling like I had to look like that to appeal to this audience this predominantly white audience that we had and then also a magazine as well I think that they um edited mine and Jade's nose and like we were so excited to do this mag and like saw the pictures back and that was a real knock you know like you really think that we have to do that to be beautiful like you've actually done that to us like it was horrible um but all these little things just kind of just like added to it i think instagram again and i'm not going to slag it off entirely because i really like using it and i really i enjoy learning from it like the connection from it i think it's sometimes just quite fun but i think you see on instagram these certain pictures extremely filtered you know whatever there's certain angles and everything does look extremely the set that is sort of identikit and it scares me for my kids massively and that again might be a bit of a cliche but it scares me i'm sort of hoping there'll be an implosion in that generation that just go sod all this we're not we're not going to listen we're going to do our own thing and i really hope that happens because at the moment it still feels on the edge of eek there is this pressure for everyone to turn up aesthetically looking a certain way and we've got to have room for there to be just great diversity in every capacity, in every area.

18:43I feel like as well, like, kids are getting older quicker. Yes. Like, when you look at, like, I don't know, someone that's, like, 13 and they look about 20, like, that scares the life out of me. I know. Like, you know, like, when we were growing up... I was old. No, we're not old. It's just when we were growing up and... Like, we didn't have all those filters and whatever. We went through like our stages, whereas now it's like, how can I explain this? Like there's no like, not ugly stage, but like we, how can I, you know what I'm saying? Well, we experimented. Holy cow. I had all the hair colours, all the haircuts, all the awful makeup and dark brown lip liner and just horrific.

19:23But now it's like going straight to this like. Sophistication. Yeah. Perfect quote unquote like. Yeah. Look. And yeah, it's scary. It is scary. It is scary. I mean, that's the good thing about social media is there is always like a sort of counter narrative that hopefully is running parallel to the stuff that is probably a little bit less helpful. But it's a big subject. We'll see. I mean, you've you've talked about you've alluded to therapy already. I know that you started therapy 2013. What made you seek out therapy in the first place? Oh, gosh. I first had it. Yeah, I was experiencing all these things in the group, like feeling less than feeling invisible.

20:02Like, I wanted to speak to somebody. So I spoke to a lady. It was so lovely. And she's, like, she's done fair people with us as a group as well. But when I spoke to her, I just... It didn't come to that conclusion, you know. Like, she couldn't say to me, OK, it probably is because of your skin. Like, there was none of that, you know. Like, there was no, like, realisation of that. So it wasn't really that helpful for me. And then, obviously, yeah, we have had it as a group as well. Like, losing a member and whatever, like, we had to obviously... we needed something because it was just such a horrible, like, moment time.

20:36But recently, yes, I am having therapy. And I think for me, it was really important to have a black woman because sometimes you want to just be able to talk and not feel like you have to explain, you know? Like, and the fact that she just gets it, like, it's just such a comforting feeling because it's exhausting enough talking about race. Like it's so tiring and yeah, I just think it was important that I had that. And do you, is this something you still regularly do now? Yeah, no, it is. I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I've got it today and I get a bit, oh, do I want to get into things?

21:15Do I want to, but then I have it and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad I did that. Yeah. You know, like it is a scary thing, but it's so necessary. Yeah, it is. I think going back to even that question of, like, who am I? It sort of helps you figure all that out or care less. And it's, you know, it's important. I certainly have that. Or some days I go, oh, I feel great. I don't need to. And that's probably a sign that I really should. Yes. Yeah, I get that too. It's mad. It is. It is. So, look, you alluded to it. We don't have to get into it too hugely here. But obviously, Jessie came on the podcast not long after she left Little Mix.

21:50And that was a deeply painful time for you. as well as therapy, how did you navigate that? I think we were really lucky. Me, Jade and Pez really stuck together. We were lucky that we had that bond to get each other through it. The fans were amazing. I felt like we were held and obviously we had an incredible team. We had an incredible team so that they were really strong for us too. And yeah, therapy too. We had to have a bit of therapy. this is hannah burner from giggly squad opil is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the u.s let's be real getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin in fact about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control between scheduling appointments missing work class or just trying to exist it's a lot But now Opill is putting birth control in our control.

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23:23Go to Upwork dot com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh. And Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion. Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, Madewell, and more.

24:02And the best part? Free shipping, free returns, and easy in-store pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today. There's the part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently, I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house, but I also know what isn't funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety.

24:41General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. NoCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to NOCD.com to book a free 15-minute call. They are here to help. Right, let's get back to Perry, Molly and DJ Fat Tony. So you've got this therapist who is seemingly really working out for you. brilliant that you've got her with you when you need her because you shouldn't be having to deal with anxiety and suffering unnecessarily so so talk to me about this anxiety where where's that come from what was the catalyst for that it's it's random but it started a good few years ago when me and the girls were in Vegas so something happened and I just started experiencing like panic attacks out of nowhere and it was really scary and I thought I was dying at the time like I thought I was having a heart attack and then I went to the hospital and they were like what drugs have you taken and I was like nothing I haven't taken anything I'm a really good girl I'm clean I don't even drink alcohol hardly but something's happening to my heart like I'm gonna die and I was having a panic attack and then I flew home and from that point on they just kept occurring like all the time and I didn't know what was happening I thought I was literally going insane like I even asked my mom if she was going to put me in a mental institute at one point because it was so bad and I couldn't make sense of it all in my head but I think now it's almost like I'm at the stage where instead of trying to avoid the anxiety which I do like as soon as I feel the tingles in my neck and I feel the anxiety creeping in I start panicking and then I spiral whereas instead I'm trying to learn to like be with the feelings and be like okay why do I feel like this it's obviously something internal is trying to tell me it's protecting me from something whatever it is but in this moment like I'm safe and it's fine but it's hard to rationalize that because my adult just goes offline and then it's just my little child self like help me help me what is happening so I think like I said to my therapist I said look I love our sessions but it's really hard for me to take all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life so when the panic occurs I'm not thinking oh what what what do I have to do I'm just like help me like I just go off on one so now she's obviously coming with me to work to put it into action more so like great yeah because I just think if I'm not facing it head on I'm avoiding it I avoid it I don't leave the house unless I have to I avoid any situation where I might be in front of my anxiety and I just can't bear it I hate it so much so what might trigger it I mean I'm listening to you speak I I totally get this.

27:38Like, I've been there. And what I'd like to say, I guess, to you is I've so been there to the point where I stopped doing TV, stopped doing radio. I'm still not doing TV. I don't feel like that's something I necessarily want to leap back into at this point. But I've got myself to a place maybe over the last seven years where I'm not having panic attacks. I've probably had one in the last six months. maybe more. Wow. And I was having them all day, every day. Right. And my anxiety has gone from being sky high to really not present in my everyday life. And how did you get there? Therapy. Yeah. And having someone to really validate what I'd been through, what I felt because of the things I'd been through, the self-beliefs that I'd built up, and to really go, oh no, I understand why you would feel this way.

28:39And just to have one person say that to me was so powerful. I feel so lucky that I have a therapist, so lucky. Because it's just not the case for so many people out there. And I have found it personally, find the right person, life-changing. Sometimes what I did do was go out on the ale and be an idiot and just trying to escape and have that moment of, On the dance floor, I really am alive and feel safe. And when I feel music, that is a bit of a therapy for me. However, I would probably make it quite toxic by getting intoxicated, doing stupid shit, partying for days and just not then protecting myself after it.

29:17Or do I go on long runs? Do I be disciplined? Do I go to the gym? And that was my coping mechanism, but I did never deal with anything. And then I think, yeah, it just kind of all came to a bit of a head, do you know what I mean? Like about last year or this year, I think I was just like, I kind of can't keep doing that because you can car mentalise or however you say the word, you can do that enough, but once the storage is full, it's like if you're a computer and you've got no, like there's no more storage left, you've got to go and upgrade, and the way by you're doing that is going to the therapist.

29:54And you can't be on the run forever. Yeah, yeah. You can't, you know, and I think we've all done it to an extent. I sometimes wonder if I'm still a bit on the run from stuff I don't want to look at because it's easier. You just go, don't look at that and work really hard at something that you enjoy or whatever feels like escapism. But actually, you can't outrun it. And like you said, you hit a wall and you had to take a deep dive into it. What was that like? Like, obviously, you had a really astute awareness of what was going on from a very young age, which I also find deeply interesting because that whole nature-nurture thing, that makes me think, in your case, part of you turned up into this world with a brain that worked in that way that went, I'm not going to do that.

30:37Because at five, you don't really have the common sense to make an informed decision based on fact. You're just kind of going with what's normal. But you kind of know. I just think safety. I think I may have been put into positions where I wasn't safe and I knew in that environment I wasn't safe, do you know what I mean? I was not protected there. So I just knew to not be around that. And my illness said you were going to cry today and I knew because I'm proper, like, I'm in the therapy at the minute. Yeah, well, it's a lot. And if you, you know, you don't have to get into this stuff now if it's too much because I know what that's like and then you have to go out of the studio after.

31:21Well, I've got to call at seven. Yeah, at seven, I've got to call to just flush out some of the stuff anyway. Good, good. Because it's full on, this stuff. I don't think people understand how tough it is, do you know what I mean? And I don't think people are honest enough to say and to talk about it all. and just like the stuff that I'm doing at the minute is like the kind of the blocks that I broke it down to. I approached my therapist over trauma in competition and sport. So it's like, why can't I enjoy my job anymore? Why? Because, like I said, Steve from Dover or whatever his name is. So many dickheads in Dover.

32:03Yeah, I know. But giving me shit to take away. I'm so fearful of losing. I don't even want to compete. and last year I'd done so much work, like November, December, January, to just rid that of myself and then I went into that fight. My career was make or break in that moment and I was fucking stone cold feeling like I found me, I know who the fuck I am, I know where my feet have taken me, I know what fucking fires I've come through to be where I am and no one's taken it away from me anymore. I used to fight for my mum, my fiancée, Liverpool, everyone who hasn't fucking made it. And now this time I'm fighting for myself.

32:44I want to feel good about them moments. It's about me. I put myself through that much shit and I have to come that much that I'm doing it for me. And when I won, oh, mate, it was the, like, it wasn't that much elation. I just felt like... You were calm. I watched those interviews and you are calm. And I was just, that's the way I was at, do you know what I mean? And I was just so happy. And I was just like, fuck the lot of you. Like, I know it wasn't about that's for you, but I just thought, no, fuck you, is you giving me that much shit? This is for me. And then when I got back, my therapist went, right, we're getting into it.

33:20And I went, can I not just have this, like, do I have to go back into pain? Can I just enjoy it? Yeah. And he's like, no, like, we're getting into it. But the more that you heal and... I can enjoy the rest of my life. And I've become so much aware of my negative and toxic traits as a person. Also having ADHD, like the rejection from the abandonment and trauma is so magnetised by also having ADHD. Like your rejection sensitivity is on a whole fucking different scale. But you throw a whole lifetime of trauma into that. and then you throw being a celebrity in or being noticed everywhere and then everyone's opinions on the rejection.

34:04I was like, wow, I've really got to do some work there. Do you know what I mean? So I was really trying to work through that stuff. Which is also, by the way, probably like a life's work for all of us. Like I think we assume, oh, and then maybe in like six months I'll be fixed and everything will be great. But you realise the more you do it, you've just got to keep digging and picking up layers. You've got to keep going, yeah. And, like, through all the... Like, I always said to my mum, I'll do the therapy after fighting. I'm not unearthing Pandora's box because what if my why was to get out of where I'm from to make it for those?

34:42So am I going to now change that in meself thing? Like, am I going to be... Interesting. ..a more different fighter? But then when I've just looked at that performance, it wasn't edgy, it wasn't manic, it was calm, it was cool. and I was like, I can see I've done the work there. I don't fear failure. I'm a piece with myself. So I was like, right, I'm getting fucking into this. How interesting though, because I think many people will resonate with that, that we do fear, oh, but if I start a therapy, then maybe that will change who I am and how I operate and the bits I like about myself. I think we question all of it because we know that the only guarantee is there will be change.

35:21Something will shift. If you start digging around in the past, if you start looking at yourself, something will shift. That's terrifying. That is terrifying. But you've just explained and proved that it's for the better. I think there were certain levels that I'd really come to terms with. And then when we sat down to write it, there were things that I really felt that I'd dealt with and hadn't even looked at. You know, when we come to writing, I got abused as a child from the age of 10 to 14. And, you know, to write that down and to actually relive it is a momentous thing. You know, I didn't believe that it had a hold on me anymore.

36:05I felt that because I don't talk about it and I don't look at it, it's been dealt with. You know, like all human beings, we plough. We plough through, it goes to the sides, builds up, and eventually it will come in on top of us. And, you know, we sat down and we started writing that, and I had to stop. I got really ill. I thought I had food poisoning for three days and what it was, it wasn't food poisoning it was the fact that I brought that stuff to the surface that night when I went to bed I could smell him I don't want to cry but I could smell him and I could see him and I hadn't done that since I was 10 or 12 or 13 and it brought all that stuff up and I really felt that I dealt with it but what I did do was start trauma therapy and if anyone in here had trauma in your lives and you think that you've dealt with it, please just try some form of trauma therapy.

36:55It's very different from other therapy. And it really enabled me to carry on with this. Because what I did was I sat down and I'm 56. So at the age of 53, 54, I'm sitting drawing, colouring in pictures on the floor with crowns. And what it does, it opens up this part of the brain that we close away. for when we talk we talk about stuff quite freely that you know without exposing our shame but when we draw it it's a whole different thing and it was really amazing experience yeah it's incredible that you did it because um you know we've got this beautiful book from you going through that process but of course going through any sort of trauma healing does involve you having to look at And I think anyone in this tent now who's been through anything challenging or traumatic, it's always, of course, the easiest option to not look at it and to build distractions and to go, la, la, la, I'm not, I can't go there.

37:59I know I do that with certain parts of my life, but I guess the only way to truly overcome situations like that is to look at it. I mean, it's like, listen, to put it very frankly, it's like having gonorrhea, right? Not looking at it and knowing you've got gonorrhea. And you won't know it's gonorrhea. and you actually look at it. Or you've got doctors who look at it. Do you know what I mean? This is the way my brain works, sorry. It's brilliant. So, you know, but until someone diagnoses it, which is looking at it, you know, you don't understand what you've got. And I can self-diagnose everything because I'm a really good doctor.

38:29I'm an amazing vet. I'm, you know, I'm everything, you know, when it comes to, you know. So until you actually look at it, you're totally right. It's something totally different. And can you see, since going through that process and doing trauma therapy and going through that process, can you see how your behaviour in certain situations has changed because you've dealt with it? Is there evidence of how you've changed through that process? I truly believe, as I say, 15 and a half years of working on myself. I work a programme. Drinking drugs are no longer a problem because I work that programme and I live that programme.

39:13So I've dealt with that stuff. But dealing with that stuff, it takes as long as it takes. Yeah, Tony's absolutely right. It does take as long as it takes for you to get there. There's no one set linear experience of therapy. If someone says to you, I'm going to fix you in three sessions, that's a load of old shit in my eyes. But hey, I'm not an expert. But I think, yeah, like Tony says, you just keep going until you feel like you've got the tools and the resilience and the mindset to maybe not do therapy or maybe not do it as often. And also, this is the other thing that I've learned, and certainly from listening to those chats again today, don't go to therapy to fix you.

39:54Don't go because you think you're going to come out this sort of better, more polished person at the end of it. For me personally, I think therapy allows you to be okay with the bits of you that are messy, selfish, ruthless, flawed, angry and all of that stuff. It doesn't banish them away so you're this pure person with no bad thoughts. It helps you get to grips with the parts of yourself that you find tricky. That's been the big learning for me, big time. As ever we're going to carry on this chat on Instagram so do come and join me there at Happy Place Official. And of course, I'll be back here very soon.

40:32For now, a huge thank you to Dr. Julie, Owen O 'Kane, Leanne Pinnock, Perry Edwards, Molly McCann and DJ Fat Tony. Also to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you. Go on, take a chance on yourself.

41:16We'll see you next time.

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