"Why does criticism hurt so much?" Dr Julie on triggers and behaviour patterns

0:01Hello, I'm Fearne Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that gets you to trust in yourself more. Today I'm chatting to Dr. Julie Smith. The core thing about mental health is you feel so out of control and overwhelmed and distressed, but as soon as you see an avenue for something that you can do, your mind has a guide to follow. And when I was sort of working with probably young women mostly, who would come along feeling that I was going to fix them in some way or that all the things that life could throw at you, they didn't know how to deal with it or that they didn't believe they could cope.

0:37All that changed between the beginning of therapy and the end of therapy, life was still stressful for them and they still had lots of stuff to face, but they just realised they could trust themselves to do something with it. I hope you're all good. I'm currently sat in my kitchen. I just went for a big old morning walk because my head was all scrambled. And then do you know what I just did? I got in, I stood in the kitchen, I was really hot after my walk. So I took, well, I lifted my jumper up over my head without realising I didn't have a t-shirt on underneath. And I've got a bunch of builders stood on the driveway.

1:08So any one of them might have just got a quick flash of my bra. Who knows? I went very red faced and quickly pulled my jumper back down. So here I am, sat slightly mortified ignoring the builders and cracking on with hopefully delivering you an episode of happy place which is soothing to your soul I think it really will be I think we all need it I don't know about you but when I was on my walk just now I went on the walk because I was meant to be doing a happy place episode but one of the guests wasn't very well so all plans changed and I was voice noting lots of my mates about stuff in my life, stuff in their life and it just seems like everyone's got a hell of a lot of shit going on right now and that's where good friends really come into play, right?

1:54We're all kind of therapising each other on voice note, which I'm so here for. I love my mates, I fucking love them. Anyway, this episode, if you are having a bit of a mare, will be a tonic, I reckon. I've been looking forward to having psychologist Dr. Julie back on the show for years. We haven't had a catch up in ages and I know that you lot have been excited too because in the last few years her social media presence has grown so massively because we are so hungry for her wise words around things like anxiety and confidence. We're going to be talking about accepting both strengths and weaknesses within us also treating ourselves with self-compassion much like you treat a child actually um which is a really good way of thinking about it how to truly ask yourself what you need right now and respond appropriately something I have a great big problem with because I often don't give myself the thing I need um also this was such an interesting part of the chat why affirmations like I am strong or I am valued might be making you feel worse about yourself.

3:04That bit is fascinating. And also on a more personal note, how Dr. Julie coped with fear around her breast cancer diagnosis, which she's been very generous sharing.

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3:51Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry. This Memorial Day at Lowe's. Save$80 on a Charbroil Performance Series 4 Burner Dash Grill. Now just$199. Plus, get up to 45 % off select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes, and food fresh. Having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid for 527. While supplies last, selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details. I'm Jake Stouck, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working.

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5:11That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash ACAST.

5:22now we'll get to dr julie in just a moment but i was wondering have you seen the happy place festival news that all of our amazing workshops are now available for ticket holders to book there are so many incredible sessions you can book into as little extras there's for instance harp sound meditations and guided breath work. And there's seashell painting and face yoga too. So make sure you head to the Happy Place website to book yours now. And obviously there's loads included with your festival ticket already. I have to say, I am particularly looking forward to line dancing in the new area we've got this year, which is called the Happy Hub.

6:03Get me in there now. Get your tickets and get your dancing shoes and I will see you there. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:32Dr Julie how lovely to see you after quite a few years now it's been a while hasn't it you last came on the pod in 2023. Yeah. Mad. And literally, it's just gone like that. I can't believe it's been that long. Where's time going? I've just been having our heads down, scurrying along. I mean, you've been incredibly busy. And so much has happened since I saw you last in all different shapes and sizes. One thing that's happened is your book and your message has just continued to blow up further and further. I've seen you on so many like big global US podcasts recently and your message just keeps spreading, your books just keep selling.

7:13What's that process been like for you? Because I know also you're quite a shy person. So it's a lot. Yeah, like it's sort of exciting and terrifying all in the same kind of thing, really. It's sort of, you never imagine it for yourself. You never imagine that anything like that's going to happen. And I had a thought about that on the train on the way here, actually, because I was holding my book and then I became aware of people on the train. She's holding her own book. And I thought, you know, I remember back to being a kid. You know, when I was reading kind of self-helpy type books, or like sort of as a teenager, if I'd have known then or if someone had said to me, you know, you're going to write one of those in the future.

7:55I would just, yeah, I would never have believed it. But it's so brilliant. But yeah, I mean, it's all good. And do you know, when I go to these sort of big live events and things and there's people there that say, oh, it's helped me in this way or that chapter changed things for me. Then it's just that sort of the reminder, really, of why I'm doing it, why I started in the first place and that it's worthwhile. And yeah, so. Because it's quite an abstract thing. Like, even if I'm doing this podcast, you know, we're in a boxed off room on our own. We don't know what the reaction is. you hope that people are going to receive whatever you're saying or writing and it's going to impact them positively but you don't entirely know so I think those little you know one-on-one interactions of people stopping you in the street or or even dming you but I think when it is in person you're like oh my god this is actually people are people are reading this book and all your books and and it's doing something positive yeah because I think when you're recording or you're making content it's not a conversation as it's you talking into a camera kind of pretending it's a person and and it's actually quite a sort of lonely existence in some ways you know I'll do the school drop-off in the morning and there's just me at home by myself all day and then you know various bowls of rice and colored water or just my computer and my cat or something you know and it's sort of um and so it's a real kind of you you can almost forget that people are watching sometimes that that um yeah or someone sort of calls you in the street and you think oh my god people actually saw that video how embarrassing how embarrassing but brilliant because we need more positive content out there we just do we need stuff that is going to be truly helpful and your videos have helped me so much over the years as have your books but it is it's a funny thing when your work starts to blow up like that and I remember I mean I can't think how long ago this was but that first TED talk that Brené Brown put out about shame and And then she put out a subsequent one, not that long after, talking about the reaction to the blow up of the first video and saying that she actually felt shame and kind of had to readdress the whole thing because it was so huge.

10:04And when you've got numbers like you have watching your videos, reading your books, there is sort of a level of, I guess, responsibility, but also just, I don't know, maybe overwhelm. It's a lot. It's a lot of people. Have you experienced that? you just thought oh my god this is actually a bit too much yeah hugely and and where I had a quite you know a small simple insular life where I had my really small practice it was just me uh you know control of my time with the family and everything I was confident that I knew I was good at what I was doing but I was in that place where probably wasn't challenging overly challenging myself until I was doing this stuff and then I was well out of my comfort zone and so I had to use what I was preaching and actually test the stuff and make sure you know does this work and you know because I was actually having to use a lot of the skills myself or I would then you know reread old books and it would feel completely different because suddenly I was in the deep end and I was sort of really yeah just outside of my comfort zone and so in some ways it was great you know it was a great test of does this stuff actually work and yeah which you know which bits work for me and which don't without a doubt how important do you think it is for us to step outside of our comfort zone I think that I don't know 90 % of my job pushes me out my outside my comfort zone you know every time I have you know this sort of situation where I'm interviewing somebody or I'm doing radio or whatever I'm forced to have opinions you know hopefully have a thoughtful conversation that flows and that people really like which is I guess a bit of a vulnerable place to be because you're putting yourself out there and you know you want to have a high standard of content that you're making but you never quite know if you're hitting the mark you know all of it feels a bit scary but not enough to stop me I do love it there are certainly things that could push me I don't know stepping really outside of it would be for me doing live tv again I don't feel like I'm anywhere near wanting to do that but what is that like what's the precipice where we go oh no and that's too far and how do we know yeah that's a really interesting question actually because I kind of think I mean I've been reading your book and how and god thank you which I love by the way I'm not finished so much I'm just loving that personal story because partly you know I relate to a lot of it and I think a lot of people will because there's that sense of you know these are things that a lot of girls particularly yeah I think struggle with and and challenges that we work through and as we age I think we find our ways around it or we find ways to connect but it's it's different because you know I've had that experience where I guess you've been in the public eye since you know what 16 yeah before 16 me um whereas I have had that very private simple life and then been thrust into this stuff I noticed how I in that kind of more private life I felt like a confident person I felt like I was happy with who I was everything was okay just by being more public it sort of threw all of that up in the air in some ways and things that I felt like I was comfortable with or parts of myself that I hadn't even thought to worry about suddenly became magnified or things that I you know is that enough or do I look right do I sound right do I know enough all of these so you as soon as you feel exposed and public in front of people you don't even know it changes every all of that stuff doesn't it and it magnifies any tiny insecurity you may have and and it forces you to then do the work to think about why is that there and does it matter and how do I get around it do I just relentlessly try to be more and more perfect or can I come to a place where I'm okay with being imperfect and anticipating the judgment that might come from it and that's such a big one I think it's Such a big one for everybody to, you know, all of us have got flaws and issues and a backstory and have made mistakes.

14:00All of us. We don't believe that about other people, I guess, a lot of the time we think, oh, they're nailing it. They're just doing so well. Or even if it's in a sort of competitive sense with work, they're doing better than me or whatever. Everybody is lugging around some shit. And I think, you know, I certainly tried to tackle that in my book, Likeable, assuming that if I were perfect, not only expressing perfection to other people, but if I somehow felt like and I've done everything I can to be perfect, then people will like me. and obviously there's no such thing for a star it's exhausting and actually the best way of tackling it is to become comfortable with the things that you know that's a weakness of mine that's you know not my strength or something that is you know a particularly sort of shiny part of my existence and also these are the places and the times where I've really messed up and it's all right but it's quite hard to get there what's been your own sort of journey with having acceptance around the parts of yourself or your life that you don't like?

15:00Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think when it comes to the content and making content, I realized that there was a specific moment, actually, when there was some video that had loads and loads of comments in it. And I was scrolling through the comments and I was skimming past all these lovely, lovely comments. Where's the shitty one? Yeah, I realized I'm looking for anyone who's not okay with me or what I've said. and it was just this moment of awareness where I had to go, no, stop. And we're done. Yeah, yeah. No more scanning through comments and stuff like that. And so as a result, I now don't often spend much time in that kind of area or, you know, responding to those kind of things.

15:44What is that? Is that because I've done that many a time and I know other people will have and people outside of the public eye will have done that on a level. are we going I need to see if there's some shitty comments here because they've seen through the act or we're looking for the bit that where maybe we've given the game away like we've shown the bad part that we didn't want to is that what we're doing yeah and if you have any kind of core beliefs around not being enough in any way which which most of us has something along those those lines, then the fear is someone is going to spot that or something about it and vocalize that, you know, in the comments or whatever.

16:28And so you're looking for the person who's going to say the thing that you most want to hide, you most don't want people to say. And then it reconfirms that belief. And so it's so distressing when it happens. And so for me, when it comes to the content stuff I would deliberately um not spend time doing that stuff but also I kind of had to reassess why am I doing this I'm not doing it for social validation I'm not doing it to gain friends I'm doing it to help some people and I had to keep coming back to that thread of because it happens all the time right you make a video and then you know my husband who kind of edits everything will go oh do you like this and and as he's playing it back what he wants me to do is read the captions to make sure there's no spelling mistakes or anything and and I haven't even heard a word that's in the video because I'm looking at some bit of hair that's sticking out and oh no did I look like that or oh my makeup's really terrible you know and you're just fixating on these little things yeah um and you haven't kind of seen the so I spend very little time looking at that stuff I have to go with the sense of okay there was a reason behind the video if I know it has a thread of value that I know someone else has found helpful before that's enough it's got to go out there because I'm not here to be you know a model or a perfect speaker or a you know I just got to get that message out yeah I mean looking even outside of making content for anyone who's listening to this who maybe finds getting feedback difficult or even somebody complaining I don't know it could be a friend having an issue with you or a neighbor's complained about something whatever it might be that can be a tricky or an awkward or very confronting thing to deal with I mean again when I was doing the publicity for this book I decided I was by no means forced into this to read some mean tweets about me okay and they were quite personal and I was sort of dreading it but I thought this is going to be an interesting exercise because once I've read them I've read them and I will realize I'm just sat here still and I'm fine so I read them privately at first at home read through them I was like oh Christ that fucking hell you know you're sort of like the blow of it yeah and then I did it again on camera and I was one step removed and I was like okay I actually can see the funny side of some of these and I think there was it was like exposure therapy like by the end of it I was like it doesn't matter it's just someone's passing thought but they happen to write it down I don't need to believe that as fact and I think that's the issue when I've had it in the past I found getting critical feedback tricky or even someone confronting me or saying something you know that just feels full-on or like a bit of a personal moment I found that very difficult because I've instantly turned on myself like yeah they're right and I'm wrong they're right and I've got this all wrong and I'm a big mess or whatever it might be or I'm shit I'm going to give up I've taken it way way too seriously and way too far what would your advice be for for sort of being able to receive any kind of feedback or critique at work or within friendship circles or families and not turn on yourself essentially yeah well it's interesting actually because there's quite there's a nice bit of overlap between our books in a sense that you've got that sort of personal experience and something I sort of talk about in Open When but also in my first book is this idea that when something like that happens the reason it stings so badly is often because it's triggering a memory of something that hurt really badly.

20:09Things that we don't think about, memories we don't necessarily even have access to. In childhood or just any time? Yeah. So, you know, we all have a core need to be connected, right, to have that relationship with our caregivers. Any sign that that is inconsistent or not reliable or not available, or we're not reassured that it's going to continue to be available. So, you know, that can encompass a whole range of different childhood experiences, triggers off such a huge threat response in any child's mind that it becomes part of the template. So in those early relationships, we develop those templates for what to expect from all future relationships.

20:52And so anything that's painful is going to be laid down as a potential. And so then we get into adulthood and even though logically we know better and I could live without that person who's making those comments, but feeling that sense of be it rejection or judgment or humiliation, all of those things. you know your brain doesn't only take information about what's happening now it uses past information to help make sense of what's happening now so it triggers the pain that you would have felt before you know so it's really intense and really powerful and we're in it and like you said that one of the best things you did was to slightly remove yourself from it and to kind of see it from the outside and that's a lot of what happens in therapy is you know you you look back at something and then you what we would call kind of diffuse from it so instead of being in it and saying you know i'm shame i'm feeling shame and stuff like that you might kind of use language for example to say i notice i had the experience of whatever the feelings were even just through language like that you're you're just creating a slight gap between you and the thing i am yeah i'm like fully embodied this thing i am ashamed yeah i am angry yeah so it becomes instead of it being you, it's an experience that's washing over you, which then implicitly implies that this, you know, it's temporary, it's something that's happening, but it will pass.

22:20And so you can kind of get that bit of distance, but also just through doing the work of recognizing where did this come from? Where did this wound come from? Once you have that work in place and you understand, you know, the different patterns that were developed early in life that keep playing out for you then you kind of can you can see it all from a bird's eye view so the the details of it are different every time so it might be a comment online or a friend or someone shouting something in the street but if you can see that every time the cycle is the same there's some sign of negativity and I'm back to where I was before and then I do this have the same coping strategies that I always have which actually make things worse and so that cycle is the same every time so that kind of you know that formulation that kind of literally writing things out on a piece of paper in in therapy helps you to kind of see it from a bird's eye view and that's another separation again where and and when you become more familiar with that and you can do things like that through journaling and you know self-reflection but what it does is it means that you first look at it in hindsight so oh that happened last week and I need to go through it But when you do that enough, you start to notice the cycle when you're in it.

23:34So, you know, a comment online and you're feeling the pain and you're noticing the coping strategy, whatever that might be. But you're also remembering the map of the, you know, the formulation of, okay, now I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. I know where this has come from. And I know that if I, instead of doing this thing that makes it worse, I actually go and meet my needs right now, then things turn out different. And so, you know, that's where the exits start. But it's a whole piece of work. It's not a quick fix. No, because these habits and I guess those moments where we know we're falling into the same habitual cycle again and again is so deeply ingrained.

24:15If most of it's set in childhood, which sort of scares the shit out of me, because as a parent, you're a parent, like I sometimes worry about my every move, like, oh, my God, that's going to have totally messed them up for adult life. Or are they going to think this because of that? And, you know, you can totally send yourself mad worrying about it. but it is so deeply ingrained in all of us is it possible for everybody to break those cycles yeah change is absolutely possible and actually it's interesting isn't it that we're with that scenario of um you know your own parenting for example when you know that there are certain cycles that you live out because of your own childhood experience being aware of it is painful but if we're willing to experience that pain then we're able to change it but if we're not willing to go there then we just live out the same cycles without any chance of change because it's so automatic right and I had that myself where I recognize my own tendency to you know I'm probably more of like an avoidant attachment style and I will you know give lots of love through duty so I will get that dinner done and I will clean up and I will make sure everyone's got their uniforms the next day but because I'm aware of my tendency to prioritize those things I am able to say oh stop yeah my my daughter's trying to get my attention while I'm cooking maybe maybe I can put this stuff down for a minute and just have the fun yeah and just show the affection and so it's only you know it's painful to to recognize that imperfection and to see it in the moment Oh, I know what I'm doing.

25:55But it's only through being willing to have that pain and have that experience that I'm able to then break the cycle in the moment. But it means acknowledging that, you know, I'm imperfect because of various experiences. And therefore, I need to be brave and face those. yeah I mean parenting's gonna do that I had it last night where I was doing a cycle and I knew I was doing it I uh the tv wouldn't work and it was like eight o 'clock at night and I promised my daughter that we would finish watching Mean Girls because we'd started it the week before and I thought that's gonna be lovely I've had the busiest day at work it's gonna be my moment just to like switch off for a minute wouldn't fucking work and I had a tantrum I was like nothing works in this house and nothing works in my life this has been the worst day ever and I was like why am I doing I know I'm doing it I was so aware in the moment I was doing it the only way I could turn it around was just to go really sorry that I had a tantrum and I'm just really tired and that's that's where I'm at today and that's my like first step into the humbling notion of like making that change in that habit because we're all so hardwired to just do the thing that actually doesn't help us out in the long run yeah and those moments of repair are so life-changing if you know when And we're willing to acknowledge, whoop, had a moment and here comes the repair that feels kind of excruciating to begin with, but ends in a better connection.

27:20And you can do those repairs with kids or partners or yourself. You know, when you have the moments where you give into a whim that isn't in your best interest or, you know, you give into a coping strategy that's old and you know it doesn't work for you. you could then respond by hammering yourself with shame and criticism why am i still doing that kind of or you could come back with sort of compassion and recognition that actually this is really tough that's why i'm going around that cycle again but i know where i'm at and and you know saying the things that you would say to your own child if they were struggling with turning something around and you know those sorts of repairs with yourself and other people are the only thing that helps us to then reconnect so that we can move on from it rather than go around the cycle.

28:06I hadn't really thought of it because I was weirdly talking to one of my friends who's in therapy at the moment. I mean, I go to therapy, so we talk about it a lot. And he was talking about repair and he was talking about the importance of it actually within parenting. But I had never put that sort of like on myself as a personal endeavor that I could have that level of compassion to go, oh my God, I'm being so awful to myself. Stop, pause. what would be better because I think that's almost harder than doing it with other people because we're like it doesn't matter about me I'm just you know chatting negative crap in my head as usual I'll just carry on with my day but actually we need to see that in ourselves that we deserve a bit of like just to let ourselves off the hook quite frankly like we have good days we have shit days and that's just so normal and it's the stuff you do with with a child or you infant is you would see if they were distressed or sort of emotionally dysregulated and then as a parent you would kind of validate that or you scoop them up and you help them to turn it around or to make it better or to shift their energy state and and we do it for a child but we don't necessarily do it for ourselves we just hammer ourselves for not being in the perfect state at the perfect time yeah and and so if we're able to sort of access that compassion that we show for the people we love the most and just redirect it and use it you know and so a lot of that work comes from building that self-awareness of rather than we're all really good at just numbing aren't we you know emotions go up and down mood states go up and down and we just crush it we keep crushing it so that we can yeah we're like phone food drink tv like anything to distract us yeah coffee coffee coffee up that energy level when actually our body is just trying to say i'm really tired stop Yeah.

29:51Yeah. So, you know, a lot of it, I think, is that being able to learn how to truly listen to your body and your mind with not with judgment that it's not good enough because you're not feeling great, but with the curiosity of why am I not feeling great? What's gone on? Why is that uncomfortable? And what do I need? You know, all of that, all of those sensations and those emotions are loaded with information about what we need that we're not getting. and and if we're then able to kind of respond to that by meeting some of those needs then we're we're well away but it starts with that willingness to kind of experience it without the judgment but with curiosity instead of oh that's interesting yeah I think curiosity changes the whole direction of it it's like because just judging yourself is like full stop a dead end I feel like shit and actually the curiosity is like this is quite interesting why am I doing this again why have I fallen into the same pattern again?

30:47I've noticed that myself recently with things that I've been doing or finding myself saying to people, I'm like, how have I not learned this lesson? What am I doing? But this is interesting. Let's get stuck into this. Will I go to therapy next?

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33:37Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name Hotels.com. since I last saw you in 2023 so much has changed I mean you're going to know a lot more about this than I will but in terms of science neuroscience how we talk about therapy how we talk about the brain what do you think you've either learned or changed tact with since 2023 in terms of your work or how you even approach the subject of mental health um oh that's a great question has it changed I think it is in the process of changing at the moment actually where I'm um in kind of writing mode again and I'm in a different place than I was when I wrote my first book and so with that first book I just wanted to get out all of these great little educational kind of sound bites and things that I know had helped other people in different ways.

34:34And so I did that. And it was this sort of, you know, easy access, just get, you know, get all those things out and make them as easy to understand as possible. But in order to do that, it had to sort of miss out some of the deeper, more lengthy, more complicated, harder to accept stuff that can also come in therapy. And so I think I'm sort of moving into that space now where I'm thinking more about how to, because that's difficult stuff to communicate, right? It's really tough. It puts a lot of, and I think that's probably why I never included it before was it puts a lot of people off thinking about these things.

35:13And I was so focused on trying to show people that might not even consider therapy that there are lots of things you can do to help yourself. Yes. And so I kept it at that level that felt acceptable to everyone. But now I'm in a place where I'm less trying to be acceptable to everyone that I'm more about okay there's some other stuff that I haven't shown you so yeah that's exciting and also I guess your readers the people that follow your work they're going to be ready like they've read they've read your first books and now they're like and what's next yeah and I think the conversation you know it's still a long way to go if we look at talking about therapy making it more accessible to everybody the whole conversation but it feels more in flow maybe than when we first met you know it's one of the reasons your book blew up so massively because it was needed people needed to have the tips the tools and we'd certainly still do but it feels like we're ready now like dr julie take us to the next level we're here for i think the trouble is that with you know a lot of the like mindset stuff and the kind of things that work fairly quickly is they're really useful in the moment but without doing that deeper of work they're fairly temporary so you have to keep work it's like I don't know personal hygiene you have to keep putting in the work every day and and keep updating and doing more of it because it's fairly short-lived the sort of impact of it so the the more sort of longer term in-depth stuff can make that more sustainable and make it last longer but yeah it's a bit more kind of exposing and vulnerable and you've got to be sort of quite brave to go there I think yeah brave and definitely disciplined which no one wants to hear because it sounds so boring but the I mean I've said this on other podcast episodes that I've done but the the shift for me not that I'm by any means like I've nailed it but like a big positive shift in my life in terms of how I think about myself more so because that was not good before has been the consistency of going to therapy once a week which I feel very privileged to do but also dedicating each day to remembering what the hell I just talked about or any ideas that came from that or moves that could be made because of what I've just discovered or talked about got curious about on that occasion and I think we you know we do live in a world now where we all just want a quick fix in whatever way like I want the shoes I'm going to feel better I'm going to eat that thing and then I'm going to get a dopamine hit Dr.

37:47Julie tell me a tip and then my life will change it's actually it's every bloody day until we die and no one wants to hear that it's boring yeah yeah and people talk about the kind of the self and and self-care and doing the right things as I think people can get quite sort of maybe there's a few misconceptions around that in the that self-care is just giving into your latest whim or your your what you want right now not necessarily what you need right now or in the long term and and actually yourself is more than that thing that you want right now it's actually your whole life and all of the different areas that you have to show up in and your responsibilities and and so kind of you know self-care really is is about thinking about your whole life and your future and then acting in a way that's in your best interest for your future self and sometimes that's not doing what you want to do either it's doing the less comfortable thing yeah and also you have to know you have to I think you have to like yourself right to bother doing it because if you don't if you've got low self-esteem just like what's the point you've got like yourself and that's yeah that's a whole other thing you have to care for yourself as if you are you believe you're someone of value that you have to recognize that you are worthwhile and I think you have to that's when you don't go for you know this stuff online about sort of um affirmations that you might not believe in you know I I am strong I am lovable I am fantastic and that might you know that might give you a little hit in the moment but it's not going to last if you don't already believe it so if you if you already believe it but you know you're going into a difficult scenario then you can use that to sort of re-engage with it so it is a good short-term tool if you already believe in it right if you're telling yourself something you don't believe so if you don't believe you're someone of value but you're telling yourself you are actually what you end up doing is setting up a little argument in your own head because your thoughts will go well actually I know different here's all the evidence to say that I'm not you know and so you start up this little internal argument in your own head about whether you really are or not and so if you don't believe it I would say go with the truth go with okay if I don't feel of value what's that about that's that's really interesting that someone could truly believe that about themselves and and could not recognize all the ways that they could contribute or you know be of value.

40:14And so, you know, I would want to kind of look at that with curiosity again and say, well, okay, if I don't think that at the moment, because X, Y, and Z, maybe I'm not living in line with my values and I'm not doing the things that would make me feel that way, then I've got a clear path towards how I work on that. And inevitably, so you can't sit there and convince yourself that you're of value, but your brain can learn through your actions, the evidence of what you actually do and how you live. And so you can create a picture of if I was going to feel like that and believe it, what would I need to be doing?

40:49How would I need to be living? What would I do differently? How would I interact with people differently? How would I parent differently or work differently? Or, you know, and really break it down to all of those little things. What would I do when I first open my eyes in the morning differently? And so you begin to look at then why you don't feel like that as opposed to just trying to squash it and make it not true how sensible i love this it's information isn't it and data but yeah yeah yeah and even if logically you know it's not true but you caught underneath kind of believe it anyway you've got to tear that apart and work out what's going on and because you know if you squash it you never get the value of it of why you're feeling that way and then you might just numb it without fixing it Oh, that's so interesting.

41:39I've never actually heard that being properly dissected because I think most people are confused. We can watch all manner of content on Instagram, say, or go on to YouTube or whatever, wherever you're imbibing this information. And you'll be told by one person, do a journal, another person, do affirmations, another person this. But actually to break it down and go, right, do affirmations, but only if you bloody well believe it. Don't just start flying them out if you haven't got the foundation of, yeah, I do believe that I've got values and I am a valuable person to society, to my family, to my friends.

42:12And if not, one interesting time to change your life because you've actually worked out this isn't working. I think that's so cool. And it's really interesting. Sometimes it's about, you know, behavior change of the person, but also sometimes we don't feel valuable because of the way that our society is set up. And so often you'll get that with, you know, new mums that in our particular society, new mums are not given the recognition or value that they deserve. and and so they feel that way not because there's something wrong in their own brains or because they're getting anything wrong they don't feel that way because there is no recognition coming at them and it doesn't mean that job is not of value it means that their feeling is a reflection of the world they're living in yes um and so yeah i think it's really important that we don't turn it into i'm getting it wrong or it means that i'm doing stuff right The answer is sometimes action that you're not living in line with your values.

43:12And sometimes it's the world is set up in an imperfect way that can be damaging to our mental health. And also, I guess if somebody has repeatedly told you when you were younger, you're a piece of shit, you're not good at this. That, you know, it's not true, but you've been, again, hardwired to believe so. And then that's a chance to go, why do I believe it? it's because that teacher or that parent or that friend used to constantly berate me. Yeah. And the work, I guess, there is learning to, well, like unlearn that. Yeah. Yeah. And just sort of learning to recognize by looking at it and doing that work, which of those things are an echo from the past and therefore you're able to kind of let it pass.

43:55So it will always pop up, right? You know, it won't disappear. And it's a bit like, I don't know, let's say you smoked from the moment you were able to hold a cigarette and then at age 40 you decided to change that and give it up. That urge to get a cigarette and smoke it wouldn't just disappear after a couple of years. It would always be there. The associations, the smells, the habits, they're always accessible in your brain because they're well laid down, right? They're well practiced. But what you do is rather than make them disappear, you recognize what they are, that they're this echo of the past and this past way of doing things or past way of thinking.

44:35And then you choose what to do with it, knowing the work that you've done to think about what this new cycle is you want to be doing instead. It's empowering. There's opportunity to change and to make your existence more peaceful, essentially, I think. when you're not berating yourself so much and you understand you're a person of value that's mental peace isn't it like whenever I've been through any times of deep anxiety it's because I've lost that peace I feel it's everything's too jumbled nothing makes sense and to have I think certainly as I've gotten older mental peace is like one of my goals it used to be make everything as exciting as possible you know like sort of adrenaline and all this kind of crazy stuff and now I just want clarity yeah mental peace yeah since I last saw you you've also been through your own personal struggles and you were diagnosed with breast cancer which you've talked about on your channels because obviously is a great level of connection you can have with your audience who have also been through something similar yeah or had people in their family their circle undoubtedly sadly who have been through a similar thing what did you learn about yourself during that process knowing so much about how our minds work and psychology what did you notice coming up for yourself yeah that probably tested my preaching and the theoretical approach more than anything and and the you know I'm generally quite sort of private person and I'm not on um socials sharing a lot of my personal life but the way that it happened was you know I I noticed this lump I was about six weeks away from handing in the manuscript for open web loads of stuff going on school things you know all this you know polishing everything up and I actually had the thought because I had lumps and lumps before that been tested and I knew it was a stressful experience I don't really have the headspace for this right now should I wait until I hand the book in before I then go and get this sorted long story short a few days later, I thought, actually, I'll call the GP.

46:39And I didn't get through the first day, didn't get an appointment, and then nearly gave up again. But the next day, got an appointment and did it. And it turns out that, you know, time was my greatest weapon, because we called it really early, which was amazing. And that made me think, how many other busy people are putting everything else in front of their own health? And, you know, I've read all the books, I know what I should be doing and I know what I would advise other people to do and yet I still had that thought of maybe I'll put my own health on the back burner and yeah so I kind of shared that it was happening and kind of told everybody to you know do the right thing and prioritize your health because if you don't it will find a way of coming first eventually right so yeah so touch would I'm I'm all good now and you know had the surgery and stuff but it was it was a tough time and an interesting story so when when I got diagnosed I was a week before handing in the manuscript and then I was at that stage I was just polishing off I was reading through chapters and stuff and there was this process this sort of moment of limbo almost where we were waiting for further test results about and that dictated what the surgery would be and stuff so I didn't know really how serious this was or what the future held.

48:00And so I'm in complete fear. And I just happened to be, I thought I'd just get this book off my desk, get it gone. And then I can focus on this stuff. And I just happened to be reading through the chapter on when fear shows up. And the whole idea of the book is that when you're in the eye of the storm, it's a sort of letter from me to you to say, okay, if you're here, this is what you need to focus on to get through and out the other side. So it's that kind of, you know, for the people that don't have someone to put an arm around them and give them a good talking to it's supposed to be that kind of a bit of a talking to to get you through so I'm reading this fit this chapter on fear when fear shows up and I thought well that's not that's not done it that's not what I want to hear at all and it was very gentle and very sort of calming stuff but what I needed was strong and a step forward and so I hit delete rewrote the whole chapter there and then for myself and um and it was much more so the language in it is much more a bit like a coach so it's like you're here you can't change the fact that you're here yeah and and in it I start to talk about the sort of the predator prey kind of mindset stuff because I felt like a rabbit in headlights I felt like, oh, I don't know which way to turn.

49:19This thing's coming at me and I've just got to dodge threat whatever way I can and I don't know if it's possible. And I didn't want to feel that. That felt overwhelming and awful. And knowing about the sort of predator mindset thing, I wanted to get into that place of seeing a goal, putting a step forward and actively moving towards it. So having a sense of agency that there was something I could do here. And so I did. I kind I, you know, sort of primed myself for that mindset in that chapter. And it helped me a lot. So every time I then read it through, I would follow up with something, an action that was in the service of my own rescue.

49:59So I couldn't change the situation. It was always going to be rough. But, you know, I think after I wrote that chapter, I then made several calls to people that I knew to find out names of surgeons, to get a second opinion, to work because there was sort of dispute over what kind of surgery I needed and stuff and and that changed again I found an amazing surgeon and all this kind of and it was only through having that mindset of you know this thing isn't coming after me I'm coming after it and it better watch out and I'm I'm kind of you know moving forward and and taking my future into my own hands that kind of feeling and yeah it helped me hugely it doesn't mean there weren't dark moments of course you know oh my gosh how how do we tell the kids how do we do all this kind of stuff but uh it felt fundamentally different yeah like that switch because I've heard you talk about this before the prey predator thing yeah and it's applicable to so many situations in life where we feel out of control like I'm the victim of something happening to me yeah and actually for you to be able to find that empowerment that autonomy to go I'm going to turn the tables here I've got more power than actually I'm I can see and I'm going to do something about it.

51:10I think that is so game changing for people in so many situations. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, agency is one of the fundamentals, the sort of core thing about mental health is if you feel that you can't have any sense of agency or effect on your environment, you feel so out of control and overwhelmed and distressed. But as soon as you see an avenue for something that you can do to, to in the very least not make the situation worse and in the most make it better then your mind has a sort of a guide to follow and and so I think that's a lot of what happens in therapy you know a lot of the time when I was sort of working with probably young women mostly who would come along feeling that I was going to fix them in some way or that all the things that life could throw at you they didn't know how to deal with it or that they didn't believe they could cope all that changed between between the beginning of therapy and the end of therapy life was still stressful for them and they still had lots of stuff to face but they just realized they could trust themselves to do something with it and they you know that they felt more confident in their own capacity to step forward not back and and push through stuff and look after themselves and so I think that kind of finding agency and an old supervisor of mine used to say push it where it moves you know a lot of the time we bang our heads against brick walls kind of with distress or emotions and stuff like that but if we find something you know one little door that opens that leads somewhere good then you know go with what works and um and it gives you such a sense of sort of control over things hi it's page from giggly squad and this episode is sponsored by experian boost summer glow up check credit glow up even better boost your credit scores instantly by getting credit for bills you're already paying.

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53:38Some may not see improved scores or approval odds. Not all lenders use Experian credit files. And not all lenders use scores impacted by Experian Boost. See Experian.com for details.

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55:31In a situation like yours or in other ones where you do feel like you're out of control initially or there's just big feelings coming up, whether it's anxiety, sorrow, anger. I'm always confused as to how much we're meant to honor those feelings and lean into them versus go I'm not going there because that's going to make me feel worse like the whole theory of whatever you resist persists versus I'm choosing to not torture myself by constantly feeling sad angry anxious whatever it might be which one is it it's interesting actually because um I'll talk to you about a thing that we kind of do in therapy about um sort of avoidance and stuff but actually since the the cancer experience I noticed that I so of course as soon as I had my surgery then it was ready to like you know books being launched tour and it was just like hit the ground running and moved on and so in some ways the whole kind of processing of everything was a bit delayed for me and I noticed that sort of health anxiety creeping in and things like that and I also noticed those really wonderfully helpful and important posters that you know they're on the back of toilet doors tell you to check your breasts I hate them I hate them because they always catch me off guard when I'm doing something else when I'm going to the load but you know like um they've got them in their ITV studios and stuff and and so if I'm focused on doing something or performing or you know working and then something reminds me remember that thing that happened it could happen again and those little things that kind of take you off guard kind of have that huge sort of yeah and so I notice in myself that I also didn't some people are amazing when they have these kind of experiences they then do massive things for charity and build loads of awareness and it becomes a massive thing I couldn't touch any of that and I and I felt terrible for it but now I realize why and it was because I just wanted to forget about it and that was a sort of unconscious pushing away of the whole experience I wanted to move on and be positive and all that and it's when you start to become aware of the way that you're pushing things away or the way that you're not willing to be there it's just an indication of probably need to at some point you probably need to just look at that and it doesn't mean you have to think of it all the time or that you have to do a big, you know, if I see a poster and it triggers something in me, I don't have to do it there and then.

58:13But it just shows me that, wow, that, yeah, something to think about. And so we do this thing in therapy where we kind of, I won't do it because of the mic, but I'll often get like a folder and I'll be on one side of it and the other person in therapy will be on the other side and we'll push against each other. And we'll imagine that that folder is all the crap they don't want to have, right? All the feelings, all the distress, all the things you're trying not to feel and think. And all day you're kind of pushing it away and you're trying to get on with what you're doing. And then I say, okay, now imagine that's the end of the session and you're going to go about your day, but I'm going to be doing this all day and you've got to try and keep me at bay.

58:50And the minute you let your guard down, the minute you get tired, you're going to drop your arm and it's going to come flying and hit you in the face. and that's when you get the overwhelm right that's such a great visual of it yeah so if i've been trying not to think about cancer for a year and then i see a poster that that reminds me then i'm going to feel overwhelmed because i've been pushing it away and i haven't you know done the work but then we can't what we do is we take the folder and say okay instead of pushing against each other this time you're just going to hold your hand here and i'll place the folder on the hand and we say okay now you know we'll we'll end the session you go about your day but you just got to carry it with you and this time it's not in front of your face so you can get on with your day and do your things and you know it's there but when you choose to you can look down at it you can think about it consider it feel it and then get back to your day again I love that so there's a choice and there's an agency but you can't have that choice and agency if if you're focused on pushing it away all the time because then it resists and it come you know it it needs to be felt and processed at some point and kind of put in its place in your own mind and understood.

1:00:01And once you've done that, it feels more like this. You're just taking it with you. I love that visual. I've totally experienced that. I used to try and delete whole sections of my past. Press delete. Goodbye. It doesn't exist anymore. Gone. To the point where I can't remember certain things. I've got like my memories fucked from it. And actually a lot of the therapy I've done has been looking at certain things properly and uncomfortably so. But I can now hold the folder like I'm holding it. And it's so relieving to be in that place. That's why I feel so lucky that I have access to therapy. Getting onto that conversation, we'd need another week of, you know, the issue for people that can't get to therapy and how systemically that's just a massive issue.

1:00:45We all know that. But I think if anyone out there can get access to it, feels like it might help them, bloody well do it. it can just be completely life-changing yeah but I think everything you've just said there is so helpful for people that are wondering but also are just carrying a heavy load or certainly trying to push something away I just think that visual is is so brilliant I never thought of it like that yeah and I think for those people who don't have access to it having a sort of openness to experience and a reflective approach to that like you know journaling or something like that writing stuff down I used to do that before before I really knew it was a thing that had loads of evidence behind it as being helpful I would naturally I guess because I'm quite introverted if I was sort of struggling with something or had lots in my head I would kind of start journaling and I when things were okay I would never keep a diary so they're all full of terrible your life story for like people in a thousand years like this Dr.

1:01:45Julie had such a shit time like, where are the good days? And, you know, never felt like doing it on the good, but it's a release and it's a diffusion as well. You know, we're talking about getting the separation. When you put everything that's screwed up in your head onto the page, suddenly it sort of unravels a bit and makes it more sense. And so if you don't have access to therapy, you can do that kind of thing. You just have to be really careful to keep it constructive. Yeah. So, you know, keeping that idea of having your best interests at heart and because that's what a therapist or a friend would do is ensure that you're not just ruminating and going down and down and down.

1:02:20Yeah. I've been doing it with my daughter before bed. She's got a little worry book. And we write all her work because she gets quite anxious before she goes to sleep. So we do a little worry list every night. And sometimes she wants me to look at it. Sometimes she doesn't. And it's just, I think she feels like, oh, she's kind of out of her head to an extent as well. And then I'm learning stuff about her as we go. And it's actually, I mean, I should be doing the same, probably doing my own one with her. But it is, there's something so lovely about that. just getting it on paper, out of you, slight separation again from it all.

1:02:51I can't believe we've been talking for an hour. Christ, I literally thought, we've been maybe chatting for half an hour. I've just looked and it's been an hour. So there's two things I need to ask you. And the first one is we're making a Happy Place playlist and we're putting great songs on that make us just feel really brilliant. What would you put on the playlist? Something that drives my kids absolutely mad at me because I love, You know, if I'm trying to, if I'm cooking and like the sun's out and stuff, I will get the windows open and play. Is it Corinne Bailey Ray? Yes. The girl put your records on.

1:03:23Oh, God. And the kids are like, oh, God, mom. And I'm like, so happy. So, yeah, totally cheesy, but super fun. That's a great song. I love it. Yeah, I love it. And, Dr. Julie, where is your happy place? Oh, at home with my babies and my animals and watching the sunset. we get a good sunset over the field at home and um yeah when you're there and you just think everyone's safe especially when the kids are in bed and I know they're all asleep and they're all safe there's something about oh yes we did it we did another day we did a day I love that well thank you so much for coming back on the podcast this has been massively helpful to me let alone the listeners so thank you so much thanks for having me dr julie what a pleasure dr julie's just one of those earth angels you know she's just like a very lovely grounded human who has so much to offer so much to give which she so generously does on instagram time and time again her videos are so helpful as are her bloody brilliant books and i just love that chat she's always got such interesting things to say and really clear ways of defining them that's why i think i'm so drawn to her work there's no mistaking what she's saying and I think you'll agree that stuff around affirmations was so fascinating also the stuff about the folder holding the folder up that's kind of totally changed me in ways so clever so brilliant Dr.

1:04:48Julie's best-selling book Open When is available now in paperback it's a really good one if you feel like you're in the eye of the storm and need to navigate overwhelm or self-doubt. Right, let's catch up on Instagram. We are obviously on at happyplaceofficial all the time. And while we're here, you know we've got a whole special Instagram for book club, right? If you love books, you need to start following us. It's at happyplacebookclub. We pick a book every single month and go with it. Also, we have our festivals. So follow us there at happyplacefestivals. Come along, come and do some yoga and eat nice food and come shopping and give me a hug.

1:05:27Do you want another one? Go on then. We've also got at happyplace.market. That is where you can buy loads of gorgeous goodies from small brands. Most of them are UK brands. A lot of them are female owned and people who are super passionate about what they make. It's a lovely little marketplace. All right, huge thanks again to Dr. Julie and to you because you are bloody brilliant.

1:06:11Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby.

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