Will Poulter on OCD and intrusive thoughts: “It’s never easy but it gets easier!”

0:00Hello and a big welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that knows self-compassion isn't selfish. Today I'm chatting to Will Poulter. I was probably 14 when I first started experiencing kind of obsessive-compulsive thoughts and the ruminations and I was constantly living with the uncertainty of did someone like me or did I say the wrong thing and that was a big source of my kind of anxiety for the longest time was am I enough, am I okay? It sounds so odd, I mean I would never wish OCD, depression or anxiety on anyone. But in a weird way, I'm oddly thankful for my mental health conditions because it's allowed me to appreciate the moments where I am more happy or more content or just more stable.

0:45Well, how are you, lovelies? God, I've had a right old busy week, but it's been so much fun. It's been one of those weeks where I felt extremely lucky. I popped to Ireland for work, which was a joy because, as we all know, Irish people are the dream. Just met the loveliest people ever and had so much fun. And at this talk that I was doing in Dublin, the centre of Dublin, it was like a big women's summit. I got to hang out with Joanna Lumley, who, I mean, I'm not the first person to say this, I effing love. She's so amazing. And do you know what is so tantalising is hearing her say, oh darling, darling, how are you?

1:26to hear her say whispering the word darling at me sort of tingled all over it's outrageous she is such a legend and it was so brilliant to hang out with her and she is as lovely as one would imagine that was a real joy whizzed back from Ireland obviously had half a Guinness also now spring is springing been doing a bit of clearing out haven't I a bit of a spring clean already which I am loving I'm getting those bin bags out I'm filling it with stuff and it's going to the charity shop I need to have it you know I need to do a proper kitchen overhaul where I open every drawer and cupboard and ask myself, why have I got 30 spatulas?

2:00Well, not 30, I'm exaggerating. 10. Don't need 10. You need two at best. That's what I'm doing. So yeah, this week's been about drinking Guinness and Ireland with Joanna Lumley. Well, it wasn't with her, but she was there. And spatulas. How about you? I hope you've had a good one. And I hope this podcast fills you with joy. It's a really lovely one. Let's talk about Will. Will's been acting since he was very young, about 12 years old. So he's literally grown up on our screens. You can find him now in the phenomenal The Bear. You'll discover just how much joy cooking brings him in this very chat.

2:33And his new films, Death of a Unicorn and Warfare are both out in April. He's been much busier than me. Interestingly, though, he only now in his early 30s feels like he's getting to know who he really is, away from all the brilliant characters he's been playing. And I love chatting to him about the way we all hopefully get more comfortable in our own skin as we get older. We talked about OCD because Will's pretty open about his OCD which I think is very admirable especially in the line of acting where usually you're meant to sort of not talk about that stuff. We talk about wasting time ruminating over whether you've said the wrong thing or not.

3:11Bloody hell I've done that. I've wasted years with that one. Also the importance of personalisation in looking after our mental health, meaning that you've got to find what's right for you, not just do what everyone else is doing. And also behind the scenes goss, my Happy Place team sort of almost going a bit flushed in the cheeks and all a bit giggly and silly over how much we love Will. Plimineck, he's had an amazing career and my team are all huge Will Poulter fans. So this was a really brilliant day. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

3:52And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tight and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

4:28Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than$60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to$1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts.

5:09Get peace of mind today at greenlight.com slash protect. That's greenlight.com slash protect. Tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record? You're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Switch with confidence, download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash acast today. OK, I promise you're going to hear this conversation in just a moment.

5:50But first, some big Happy Place Festival news. Huge news. Now, if you signed up for early access to this year's festival, you can buy your tickets now, right now. Get online, happyplacefestival.com and nab your spot. and if you didn't sign up for early access no stress you'll be able to buy your tickets from tomorrow Tuesday the 25th of March and as a little reminder we've got a new London home we're so excited about this I'm unbelievably thrilled in July we're going to be at Gunnersbury Park it's a change of location but all the same happy place festival magic the festival won't change it's the same festival you know and love you'll be able to do all the same sorts of classes and workshops, eat loads of incredible food, listen to poetry and live music and of course come along to live recordings of this very podcast with some really brilliant guests.

6:41Then in August we're doing it all over again at Tatton Park in Cheshire. So early birds you can get your tickets now or set yourself a reminder for general release this Tuesday the 25th of March just head to happyplacefestival.com right let's crack on here's the show.

7:18Hello, Will. Hey, Finn. How are you doing? I'm good. Are you good? I'm good, thank you. I'm not too bad. I'm really happy to see you today. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. You were ill last week, but you're okay now? I was ill last week, and I'm definitely a lot better now. Was it also your birthday last week? It was, it was. I'm 32. 32. How are you feeling about 32? How am I feeling about 32? It's funny. I, for the longest time, couldn't see past 30 in my imagination. I couldn't see a version of myself beyond 30. I don't really know why. I think it's because I didn't know what it looked like.

7:50For whatever reason, I couldn't imagine myself in my 30s. But actually, you couldn't pay me to go back to being in my 20s again. I'm loving being in my 30s. Yeah. I feel like that about my 30s though. Now I'm in my 40s, I'm like, you could not pay me to go back to my 30s. Right. I'm sort of hoping that it's getting better. Yeah. I think. That's what I'm hearing. So now you're in the bit you can imagine, 32. What is that like? Great. What is that like? Yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I feel like in your 20s you learn a lot, right? Or at least that's how you should process the mistakes you make, all the things you go through.

8:26And no, I'm enjoying it. And actually holding to that idea that it does get better and better. And, you know, just on the kind of self-development journey, you know, just trying to make good choices and take care of yourself and be good to other people. And, you know, that be the kind of, yeah, the guiding force, I guess. And also at work, I think that changes, doesn't it? Like your confidence builds and your skill set broadens. I mean, you've been working for a very long time already, but everything gets better, I think, in terms of you feeling more comfy in your skin. I'm imagining your job is very performative and you've got to have that level of self-awareness to know what you're doing and how you're doing it.

9:05And you get comfier in your skin, would you say? I think so. Yeah, I've definitely had to work on that, particularly because at a young age when, you know, like a lot of people, and I think it's almost just part and parcel of growing up, right, and early self-development, I was really insecure and not remotely comfortable with my own skin. And I very quickly found a profession, like at the age of 13, that basically rewarded me for being other people. And so that was quite interesting where I found a job that also happened to be my hobby. And so my greatest passion suddenly intersected with a profession.

9:41And the message was, we like you more as other people. and actually here are more opportunities to be other people and that elicits, at least at the time, kind of a better response than the one I was getting just as myself, whatever that was. So I don't think I really kind of properly reckoned with who I was in between characters without that sounding really like pretentious or sort of risk of being a bit wanky. But like, I don't think I really properly reckoned with who I was and really engaged in like self-acceptance until I was in my like mid-20s I kind of looked around and took stock of how I was living and I was like I'm putting more into the characters that I'm playing than I am actually like taking care of who I am in between the roles so I'm really grateful that I did that work in my like mid to late 20s so that now in my 30s in theory I'm a bit more secure in myself and I'm better able to discern between like when I'm playing my characters and when I'm me if that makes sense well I think that's actually jolly early for you to have done that because I feel like I'm only doing that now in my mid 40s and I'm not exaggerating I think I mean my job is obviously slightly different but an exaggerated version of my personality was celebrated and then you go oh actually just I'm quite bold I'm just Like, what have I got to offer?

11:11So then you just become the heightened version of yourself, even outside of work, in your social setting. And that's confusing. And I think it takes guts to actually strip all that back and go, I'm just going to be me, which on any given day might be really up for a laugh and a bit extroverted or might be really quiet and a bit kind of, you know, not bothered about engaging in the conversation going on around me and feeling okay with that. I think I'm still quite uncomfortable with that a lot of the time. Yeah, and I think the work's never done, right? Never. That's the bad news. That's the hard reality.

11:47We do this until we die. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does get better. But it doesn't necessarily get easy. I think it potentially gets easier as you accrue these skills and abilities to self-regulate and take care of yourself and adjust and whatnot. But yeah, it never gets easy. No. So when you were playing roles at a really young age, when you were in Son of Rambo, so when you were a tiny kid, what, 13, 14? Yeah, 12, yeah, 12, 13, yeah. So you're already getting that message, okay, this character is getting a great reaction, so this is brilliant. You know, when you then go back to school or are with friends, were you tempted to take a bit of that character with you, sort of hijack a bit of it for your own life?

12:33How did that? Because you're so young. Do you even have the awareness to know what's the character and what's you at that point? Yeah, it's funny because I might have misspoke in a sense. I never really confused who I was with the characters. But one thing was for certain was that I felt more confidence playing a character than I did being myself. Because being myself just felt like less stable ground. Because it required more consistency. And that when, you know, you're hormonal and growing up and struggling with, you know, your mental health, as I was at that age with several undiagnosed kind of mental health issues.

13:16I just didn't settle into a consistent version of myself. I was so overwhelmed and burdened with what other people thought of me. And then I think finding something that gave me some version of instant gratification. Like I knew when we'd got a take. I knew when performing live when something got a laugh and didn't. It just, there was a more recognisable feedback loop when I was playing a character or when I was at work. Whereas as a person in between playing those characters and being at work, I didn't have that gratification. I was constantly living with the uncertainty of, did someone like me or did I say the wrong thing?

13:55And that was a big source of my kind of anxiety for the longest time was, am I enough? Am I okay? am I saying the right thing do people like me have I caused offense it was like it really kind of I would say sort of defined pretty much every waking moment of my life for the longest time like whether I've said or done the right thing and that is with like really wonderful parents and a school that was really supportive of me going away and doing that work and you know a really like privileged and fortunate start and I think that that only allows me to kind of empathize with how hard it is for folks who are potentially like much less fortunate than me in that respect.

14:35Yeah I mean it's tricky the whole and I think this is a really interesting conversation to have because most people listening to this will have been wracked with worry that they've said the wrong thing that they pissed somebody off I mean I've wasted whole nights of sleep worrying about one thing I've said that the other person probably didn't even hear yeah and I and I'm literally in a negative loop of panicking and I would say only in the last six months have I managed to find a level of it's probably not even peace but i can live alongside it and not lose sleep and i feel so good about that yeah one of the things that's really helped is mel robbins has got this brilliant i think she's coming on the podcast scene has got a brilliant short phrase which is let them so if someone's talking shit about you or if someone is thinking badly of you or whatever you know it's obviously out of our control and having that moment of you know having some sort of definition between like I'm over here doing my thing I didn't mean to cause harm they're all bitching about me let them like let them let them let them and that has helped so hugely but I think again it goes it's just about sort of self-acceptance self-compassion letting yourself feel that discomfort but not it's those little loops where you torture yourself for hours and hours and it's I've been there it's horrendous how much do you care what people think of you now um I think I'm getting better at sort of conceding to the idea that it is outside of my control provided I can stand by how I've conducted myself and and provided I can feel good about how I've been towards somebody and how I've impacted them you know because sometimes I'm I'm concerned with like total abandon of how other people think about you sometimes for me I'm still struggling with that idea that it might coincide with not caring about how you behave towards other people do you know what I mean like that you're still obviously responsible for how you are and your actions but yeah I totally agree with the idea that you you can't certainly like waste sleep worrying about someone else's sort of actions towards you um so I'm getting there you know I think the biggest challenge for me on the self-development journey has been sort of self-compassion and and I even use that over self-love because for the longest time and I suppose still to a degree, the concepts of self-love, and I don't know whether this will strike a chord with anyone listening, but the concept of self-love was always something I really struggled with because I couldn't unmoor the concept of self-love from something that felt kind of self-indulgent or selfish or even a little bit narcissistic at times.

17:16And that's not what I feel today. It's quite a British perspective on it. Yeah. If you really hate yourself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Who the fuck do you think you are loving this? It's just very British to really hate yourself. Exactly. Yeah. The Americans have got some things right. They've got to listen and they're far, far more advanced, I think. In this area. In that area. For sure. 100%. And I think practicing at least self-compassion has been really, really important. you know I think it's it's also because some of the like if I may say the like marketing around self-love just felt a bit like cheesy yeah um I think you can definitely say that do you know what I mean like a little bit cheesy and and also that concept of you know starting with yourself in order to better serve other relationships it just felt counterintuitive for the longest time I was like if I want to be you know a better servant to my relationships in my life you know be it family, be it friends, be it work, whatever it is, the context of starting with yourself just felt like selfish.

18:19But it works. But it works. And that idea of filling up your cups so that you are able to pour out to other people's cups and kind of, you know, be dependable as well. I really believe in. And look, it's still very much a work in progress, but I'm getting there. And self-compassion, I can say all the time. Self-love, I don't say as much. I think I spent so much of my time not loving myself. Yeah, it's hard. But yeah, maybe I'll get there. I don't know. I just think when you grow up in this country, it's just really hard. It's just a really hard concept to think, yeah, I really like myself and I'm going to champion myself.

18:55It's because the messaging is not that outside of ourselves. It's a really tricky one. I mean, you have been extremely open talking about your mental health and talking about OCD, generalised anxiety disorder, periods of depression. it's I would imagine being in Hollywood being a big actor is not conducive to those things evening out down the line or even managing them well would you say that's true yeah it's really interesting I saw Jesse Eisenberg speak about this brilliantly the other day and he's got a film called Real Pain which I don't know if you've seen but it's fantastic him and Kieran Culkin I watched it just recently and it's amazing.

19:36And he says that in many respects, actors are quite literally the worst people you could possibly give sort of fame, public attention, money, appraisal to. Like the things that ironically, I think, make a lot of actors sort of in a vertical commas good at what they do is that they do have these emotional fragilities to them. And we do often have, you know, mental health struggles and we are able to kind of access very kind of sensitive, raw elements of our psychological makeup. But those same things are sore points in the public eye or, you know, with too much attention, etc. So it's not to play a tiny violin for actives.

20:23I mean, I'm so lucky to do it for a living. But right. You're a human. That shit annoys me. It's like, it doesn't matter what you fucking do. Do you know what I mean? You're a human. and you've got a brain and your brain works in mysterious ways and you've got a job that yeah it's a great job lots of people would love to be an actor but do many people want to be hounded by the press and their every move scrutinised and everything highlighted under a magnifying glass I don't think so yeah yeah I know it's not fun right and I still feel that element of you know more comfort in you know playing a character and presenting that as my work and then just you know stepping back and just kind of being me and being kind of relatively private and and even though i feel comfortable in my own skin or more so than i did in between roles um you know i'm still private and and i still feel like public attention and the things that you mentioned do kind of erode at my well-being ultimately i don't think there's a single person that could honestly say that those things don't they're not natural you know it's not It's not natural to have that many people think they know you because they don't know you.

21:30You could even sit here and talk as you are eloquently and honestly, but it takes proper friendship and time to get to know someone. But, of course, the nature of celebrity is that everybody assumes, oh, I know exactly who Will is. I know exactly the type of guy he is. And there's a discomfort in that when you're still trying to figure out who the fuck you are. Yeah, it's like, can you tell me then? Because I don't. I'm still working that out. Yeah, I don't know who I am. I have no idea. Exactly. It's really tricky. I mean, especially from a young age, because that is where you are still forming ideas of what the world is, who you are, how you fit into it.

22:02And all of a sudden you've got everybody telling you how you should be, what you should do, all eyes on you. It's a tricky thing. You know, I started on TV at 15 and I think a lot of that period was deeply confusing. Slightly arrested my development in some ways. also I think people infantilise you and talk to you like you're a kid when you're 32 because they still think you're 12 in son of rambo and you're like no no I'm a grown human being and I'm an adult with bills to pay or whatever but people still see you as this kid yeah how has that experience been for you it's really interesting I mean I I worked I would say sparingly during you know what you sort of consider childhood you know I did like two three films and a tv show max I've got friends who've been in the industry you know since they were 10 and worked I mean two three times a year up until they were sort of an adult and so they can speak to this like a little better than I can and it's really interesting I've learned from their experience in that I think I have a sort of version of this which is as a child actor if you like on set you internalize a lot of things that again aren't quite natural and you wouldn't normally even come into contact with because you are kind of thrust into a relatively adult world.

23:20And so even in adulthood, I think as an actor, having started so young, sometimes I find myself behaving in quite a sort of sometimes maybe overly deferential way, like asking for permission to go to the bathroom and which, which, you know, you still do out of courtesy for the sake of the, you know, job kind of and everyone else around you and your team sort of functioning well you don't just disappear without explanation but I'm sure some people do but I think there's still a part of me that sort of feels like I have to as the child actor ask the adults if that's okay and you know just sort of the concept of yeah not standing anywhere you're not supposed to unless there's a mark and being told when you can eat and when you can't things like that that those have I think sometimes in my mind rightly or wrongly kind of been conflated to this idea that I am still a child in some ways like I that that has arrested my development if you like and so to your point you know starting young I think in some ways it accelerated my development I think it allowed me to communicate with adults yeah at times you know in a way that felt kind of peer-to-peer and matured me and that idea of just performing under pressure in adult environments was definitely to my benefit in lots of respects but there are still things now in adulthood where I'm looking for approval sometimes from people who are the same age as me or sometimes even maybe have less experience but I'm kind of mentally locked into this idea that I'm still that kid on set and I need the adult sort of say so that's that's also an interesting thing that I'm still kind of unpicking yeah no I get it well because it sets the tone and it was you know it's a huge thing to happen in your childhood to be on a in a big film it's a massive thing for you psychologically to get your head around.

25:10Do you feel you missed any key milestones in that point of your life? You know, like school proms or even in the sense of your behaviour because you know that all eyes are on you, even if it's not the press, but you've got maybe your friends or your teachers, you stand out of the crowd. You're not one of the other kids. You're the kid that's in the film all of a sudden and everyone's kind of intrigued as to if it's changed you in any way or what's he doing and how's he behaving? Do you think you sort of missed out on any normalcy during that time? I'm really lucky because generally speaking I don't feel that way.

25:43I don't feel like I missed out at all. And that's thanks to just having a really, really solid core of friends who I've known really like my closest group of friends I've sort of known since I was like five, six years old. And some of them like seven, eight. But my closest group of friends really I've known for that long. So like over 20 years, which I'm now trying to de-age myself. Over 25 years. um uh so you know that's very helpful my family are amazing and they all work in industries that are far more sort of important than mine like they're nearly all in health care and if they don't work in health care they like volunteer and they're all incredibly charitable and they they all apply themselves in ways that to my mind have always been you know far more important than my kind of like day-to-day job so that's given me a sense of context always and I say that to say that I never came off a film set and sort of felt like, wow, you know, I'm special.

26:40Like, you know, because I knew the facts of the matter from young. So I'm grateful for that. And then, you know, quite honestly, when I came back to school, no one really cared that I'd just been on a film set or whatever else. And I didn't either. And I was so happy to just get back to it without too much attention placed on that whatsoever. So I've been really lucky in that respect. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead.

27:21No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

27:56And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than$60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to$1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today at greenlight.com slash protect.

28:33That's greenlight.com slash protect. Tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record? You're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Switch with confidence, download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash ACAST today. And at what age do you think you noticed that something didn't feel great mentally?

29:12When? Yeah, I mean, from as early as I can remember. Really? If I'm completely honest, yeah, and I was reflecting on this the other day and, you know, OCD, something I was diagnosed with in my early teens. and when I reflect on it I think I had you know intrusive thoughts which is sort of one of the kind of subsets of OCD if you like um and I think I had intrusive thoughts undiagnized OCD when I was aware of my imaginary best friend for example you know it just it just had a different and, you know, typically imaginative spin on it for a child. Like, I can remember having this kind of voice in my head that told me, you know, if I didn't, you know, walk on certain paving stones on the way up to my, like, mum and dad's house, that, like, something terrible was going to happen to them.

30:05I mean, I still have that. Right, exactly. I did that probably on the way in. Right. That's one I can't let go of. It won't fucking go. I can't do three drains. It's wild. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Two drains. got to say something really positive about someone three drains cut I will walk I will make a scene to get around it I can't get over that cross the street I will I can't get over it it's ridiculous I mean I can get over it because I walk around right mentally can't get over it mentally can't get over it yeah yeah it was so interesting when I was younger that was just yeah that was just this um this voice in my head this like figure that you know I I labeled as this kind of like negative character in my life and only post my diagnosis and actually like well after you know knowing that I had OCD did I look back on that and go oh that's what that was you know so what at what point did you think oh this isn't because when you're a kid whatever you're thinking is just your normal so you assume maybe everyone thinks like this or you don't even you don't have the awareness or the detachment to think this is a thought it's just you walking around so at what point did you assume this is a problem actually this is causing me stress in my life now?

31:13Well I was really lucky I got access to therapy in my early teens I was probably I was probably 14 when I first started experiencing kind of obsessive convulsive thoughts and and the ruminations and intrusive thoughts and you know until it was diagnosed and until I received that therapy I just thought I was totally alone with this condition or not even condition at that time with this way of thinking, with this sort of defunct brain, I was so scared. And that's, I think, the scariest thing about any mental health issues. And you can never underestimate how alone someone can feel in their state.

31:53Even when you're telling someone, oh, I have anxiety too, or I deal with intrusive thoughts, or I have OCD. I know, because I've been there myself, 90 % of the time, the other person's looking at you going, yeah, but You do, but not like me, though. And it may be that you are within five meters of someone at any given point who is experiencing the same thing or a version of that thing. Or, you know, it's really quite a sad and potentially quite British expression. But it is also quite true that misery loves company. And there's some strange comfort in a way of knowing that other people are struggling, too.

32:31And that's not because you want other people to be struggling, of course, but it makes you feel less alone. And there's also comfort in knowing that you can be a support to someone just as they can be a support to you, that there's opportunity for mutualistic compassion and support. And, yeah, I think I took some comfort in knowing that, you know, I'm not alone. And I can also recall, you know, and obviously a lot of advances have been made in respect of the mental health conversation and how openly people talk about mental health. I can remember when I was going through it and I mean into my late teens maybe even early 20s when people when I saw people talking openly about mental health I'd sometimes think oh don't don't publicize that or don't put that in the open like that's to speak to your therapist about or your family and and and of course it is a subject that you you ideally want to do that with you know a therapist family members friends any someone some anyone in your private life.

33:29but the power in also being open about it publicly I've learned that I don't think you can underestimate how much that can potentially help someone else and so I do try and speak about it as openly as possible as scary as it is sometimes yeah of course it is I mean it's a strange thing to admit all of this stuff and it's a new conversation it's probably only the last 10 maybe 15 years that anyone has been very openly talking about this stuff and it is uncomfortable I mean I was diagnosed with OCD probably only about two years ago. And I probably only have had it for maybe, it was a bit of a reaction to stuff.

34:06So it was maybe seven, eight years. And I didn't realise, I didn't know enough about OCD. I just thought it was like you just went around the room tapping things or whatever. You know, that cliche, you've seen it on TV and I was like, I've got OCD. But it's the intrusive thoughts that are so evil and bleak. The worst bit about it being that, I had no idea that my intrusive thoughts weren't fact. I assumed that if I had this idea that if I didn't, or it wasn't even if I didn't do a thing, sometimes it would just be, I had this one, I'm not even going to say it out loud, this one bleak thing that I thought, this is the outcome that's going to happen.

34:42And it's going to happen because otherwise, why would it keep coming to my head constantly? And it wasn't until a therapist said to me, that's, it's not real. Like that simple. It's not real. That's not going to happen. You're just in a loop of that's, your go-to worst worst case scenario thought and it was almost hearing that that was enough to go what because I just assumed that that was the outcome and I'm just waiting for this thing to happen now for whatever reason and there's no logic to it obviously there's no rhyme or reason it's just you've landed on that being the worst case scenario and it pops into your head fucking all the time it's the pits it's the pits and like you say hearing other people say oh my god I have And it's not just an intrusive thought of, oh, I didn't like that thought.

35:27It makes you physically like you want to shake it off. It's like the worst, most uncomfortable thing ever. And I didn't even know that that was OCD until someone told me like three years ago. So we do have to have these chats. We do have to talk about this stuff. And, you know, if two, three people listening to this go, oh, fucking hell, you know, that's actually causing me a lot of stress. I've never told anyone that. Yeah. Or maybe I've got OCD. You know, it's not about going and self-diagnosing yourself with everything under the sun. But I think if you can put into context these things and know that they're not real, that is helpful.

36:01So important. Yeah. The distinction between fact and feeling. Christ, it's important. It's massive. And you're so right. It's one of the cruelest aspects of OCD is I think it totally distorts that. And I think through repetition, you know, and just the constant rumination, it blurs that distinction between fact and feeling so much. where you start to confuse your feelings for facts and vice versa. And, you know, something I actually saw, and I want to mention them only because they, you know, spoke about this openly on a podcast and I really appreciated it. And I haven't told them personally, but Jordan and Harley of Rizzle Kicks, I heard them talking, you know, as they have done, like quite openly about their mental health.

36:43And something really, really interesting that I believe Jordan said about Harley, and the two of them spoke about this kind of in tandem. The really fascinating thing about OCD and potentially one of its cruelest things, but hearing this helped me massively. So I hope if anyone else is going through it, they can also take some kind of comfort in this. One of the cruelest things about OCD is that often those intrusive thoughts and the worst thing you can imagine is the worst thing you can imagine and is something that your OCD has created precisely because it's the antithesis of how you actually feel.

37:21And it actually takes what you value most or the version of yourself that you most want to be, your idealistic self, the way that you want to conduct yourself, your sort of idealistic behavior, and it creates a kind of subverted version of that whereby it convinces you that the opposite is going to happen or you are going to become the opposite of who you want to be or you are going to behave in a way that is the most abhorrent way you could possibly imagine behaving or the most terrible thing, you know, you could think of happening is going to happen. OCD is so cruel that it'll do that. Yeah, it'll jump on that and own it.

38:02It will. It's the worst. We had Jordan on the podcast and he was so brilliant and talked about everything from addiction to ADHD and everything in between. And again, you know, he's doing brilliant work and talking about all sorts of things, which is so, so important. I think OCD is one of those is the mental health condition that's still joked about, you know, oh, you're neat and tidy. You've got OCD. It's not quite that, guys. And it's really important that we talk about all the different shades of how it can manifest. It's not, you know, it might be turning on and off light switches. It might be having to touch everything in a room and, you know, all sorts.

38:37but it might also jump onto the worst case scenario and play that image in your head a hell of a lot. And it's horrible. Has that ever crossed over into your work? Has it ever impacted you being on set or doing something you really want to do? Yeah, you know what? Actually, that's one of the things I'm quite grateful of, is that I think as I've taken better care of myself off set and in between jobs, I think my work has gotten easier, like in respect of what we said earlier. Like I think it's made life in general a little bit easier, not easy, but easier. And I think I've been able to sort of practice a little bit more emotional regulation and control because, you know, the intrusive thoughts often used to come right when the pressure was highest at work.

39:26Or I knew, for example, really, really difficult scene. You know, we have to get it in one take. and my injuries of thoughts would be you're terrible you can't do this you're atrocious it's the end of your career after this take you're the worst actor ever you know whatever it was and that would obviously get to me and and now as I've learned a few different coping mechanisms and I think through therapy and medication too I've just got a little bit uh just a little bit more of a handle on it let's not say that I don't still have you know really difficult days um But, yeah, the intrusive thoughts often used to rise up at the, you know, just at the moment when you don't want them.

40:08And that is quite often when they present themselves. It's the pits. I've so been there. I'm floating out of my body, guys, and I'm about to do a live TV thing and I'm not even in my skin anymore. I'm up in the corner of the room over there. It's always the worst, worst moment. Has it ever got to the point where you thought, I can't do this anymore, I can't do acting anymore? um thankfully not and it's the weird double-edged sword I think I was kind of referring to earlier of being an actor whereby in a strange way the depths that I've sunk to as a result of OCD anxiety and depression are the depths that have allowed me to act certain things perform certain roles embody certain characters and it sounds so odd I mean I would never wish OCD depression or anxiety on anyone but in a weird way I think my capacity to go to those depths or or feel that kind of darkness also allows me to appreciate the sunlight and you know the lighter moments and you know feel things in an antithetical way where where I'm where I'm you know happier for it too it's really odd and you know I think maybe that's just a coping mechanism in itself right a choice a way of identifying a silver lining in it but I'm oddly thankful for my mental health conditions because it's allowed me to appreciate the moments where I am more happy or more content or just more stable yeah I think when you could you know it's a funny thing isn't it because I think I used to obsess about reading stories about people that certainly had depression or anxiety and go oh when they're not in it now?

41:51How did they get to the bit where they're not in it? And cling on to that like it was some sort of ascent rather than it being a big wiggly line, which we all know it is. Big wiggly line. Big bowl of pasta. Yeah, exactly. There's like peaks and troughs and there's bits which are really awful and then you have moments where you're feeling really great again and that's amazing and to be celebrated. But I think that's the interesting thing is I used to think that you just would crawl out of it and then you're just like happy forever and everything's great. But actually if you can learn to lean into those bits where you're not feeling anxious.

42:19At the moment, I don't have any anxiety at the moment. It's maybe a combination of, you know, doing therapy, which you feel very lucky to do, and a few other things going on. And that's not to say there's zero, but it's a damn sight better than I was, say, seven years ago where I was just having panic attacks all day long. I think when you can really appreciate those moments where it's not around and trust that, you know, you're in it now and it might last for a while. It's so lovely to have that appreciation for just normal, level-headed, feeling balanced, grounded life. I totally get what you're saying.

42:55And also, I totally understand what you're saying about, you know, having that access for these characters to evolve and to be brought to life, which makes you bloody great actors because you believe it, you see it. And, you know, we had Chiwetel Ejiofor on the other day. It was so amazing. And we had a sort of similar chat about how much you bring of your own personal experience to a character. And he was saying he actually tries to not do that too much, which really surprised me. He doesn't necessarily want to go to those depths or draw on it too hugely. But I feel like what you're saying is the opposite.

43:31Like that's helpful. You can dig around in this little pool of shit you've been through and bring it to a character. yeah a little bit and you know rather like every actor's sort of process is different like everyone's sort of mental health experience is different right i think one of the things that constantly gets overlooked in the subject of physical and mental health and the two need to be sort of spoken about as being more intertwined because i believe they are more intertwined than kind of we maybe you know talk about one of the reasons i think it's it's kind of interesting when we talk about dieting or training regimes in the context of physical health there is this kind of one size fits all attitude and that's really interesting because everyone's digestive system and you know microbiome and you know their um family history history genetic you know all of that body type all that stuff is so wildly unique that the idea that sort of one size fits all just just doesn't make sense to me and and the same is true when we talk about mental health i think look no further than you know a complicated organ for your brain it's like everyone's neurochemistry is so unique and different and it's also fascinating to me that i think neuroscientists and this is some real like back of a napkin math here but neuroscientists sort of openly say that they kind of only really understand 30 of the brain yeah it's a little bit like being a geographer and being like well yeah we understand the the green bits but the blue stuff we're still trying to work out like the 70 percent of the world like the the sea we don't know what's going on there but we can tell you what's going on with the green like that's what's going on with our brains and so the idea that the same meditation practice or the same medication or the same form of therapy or the same self-care regime is going to yield the same results for everybody is just is just untrue so there is an element of trial and error and and there is um a real degree of sort of finding what works for you and so bringing it back to the acting conversation I know that to be true of of acting because I know it to be true of of my you know experience with my own mental health and it's such a intimate relationship with psychology acting I think that's why I love it and it's a study of human beings and it's a study of the human condition and psychological development and so for me I can't really approach it all that differently and I think I'd be lost if I didn't draw on my own personal experiences but also I would love to be as good as Giordano or acting so whatever he's doing whatever he's doing is clearly working and it's fascinating to see different people's approaches you know because I guess you know you don't want to dig around in tricky parts of your own psyche for your job and be left in that state surely to go home feeling slightly re-traumatized or like you've taken yourself to a place of deep depression because your character needed it do you have anything that then gets you back to and I'm going home now and I'm going to cook a meal and go to bed like I would normally yeah you know um being around like friends and family and reconnecting with people I really love and care about is huge I think that that's probably a mistake I made previously whereby post a job I sort of went straight back into chasing the next thing or I don't know I would sometimes just not be as sociable as I ought to have been and I sort of almost forced myself into contact with people post jobs because I know how restorative it is so I do that now it's you know company and I'm really lucky that I have you know great people in my life with whom I kind of can talk openly about mental health as well should anything kind of arise I mean I talk about it very regularly would you on set because I think especially of anxiety if you if you're feeling certainly panic the worst thing you can do is just internalize that and not say anything and be in your head going oh my god I'm gonna panic attack and no one knows and do I look normal and you're just everything is just wildly out of control in your head but actually as soon as you saw I've had it before and I've said someone working with I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack so I'm just gonna step to one side for a minute and then it goes because you've said it the worst thing is when it's sort of breeding and percolating in secrecy in your own mind would you would you feel comfy to do that on set to say I'm just feeling a bit off here guys I need a minute yeah it's really interesting isn't it because just returning to that idea of the distinction between physical and mental health and there is of course some distinction but like I say they're not really spoken about as being as intertwined as I believe they are if you were physically ill or you had broken your leg you know saying that explaining that you wouldn't feel nearly as much you know discomfort or you know self-doubt as you do if you say that mentally you're you're struggling with something and I think that I don't have really any issue when when it comes down to you know struggling with my mental health and saying as much and in my experience in recent years I've seen an increasing level of kind of empathy for that and less and less sort of call it friction around you know that being a problem or someone sort of making allowances or compensations around you know not being in a great place mentally I've been really really actually sort of encouraged by how much empathy there has been within the industry around, you know, mental health struggles and recognising mental health as I think we ought to with the same level of respect as we have for physical health.

49:16So, yeah, I haven't personally had any kind of too many issues in that regard. That's not to say there isn't still a lot of work to do. Well, it's like any workplace, isn't it? There's going to be people that are receptive to that conversation, have things in place, resources, and other people that maybe haven't been personally touched by it or they're just not bothered about it and it's a place of work. and it's, you know, different, I guess, wherever you go. I read that you, when you were filming Dope Sick, that really got you thinking about your mental health in different ways. What kind of happened during the filming of that?

49:46It's such an interesting show and obviously one that, you know, the opioid crisis is something that is still a huge problem. You were shooting in Virginia where there is an opioid crisis and I believe that a lot of the crew members were sort of quite touched by what you were filming because it obviously touched all of them personally in some way or you know by extension there was someone in their life that had been through it how did that impact you filming it yeah that's a really good question that was sort of a perfect storm for me to kind of have a sort of tough time a bit mentally um I think it was like we were we were shooting while I think certainly in the UK things were locked down and really only certain parts of the states were kind of emerging out of a sort of version of lockdown with still a number of COVID measures kind of being observed and it was quite an isolating experience just for me personally I was just sort of I was the only kind of like foreign hire out there shooting at the time and I just spent like an overwhelming amount of time alone post lockdown where I'd been kind of alone for a long period as well and it was odd I sort of I feel a sense of survivor's guilt and just general guilt in how kind of well I feel like I functioned during lockdown.

51:02Like it was quite a, if I may say, like quite a nice breather for me mentally. And I was in a really kind of like regular routine and save for, you know, the amount of contact that I would have liked to have had with friends and family. I had a really fortunate time of it in lockdown. So I think when I emerged out of that and then found myself in a kind of working environment, I think I almost had a delayed reaction to the sort of sense of being institutionalized that I think a lot of us sort of felt when we were in lockdown and it kind of all hit me at once. and I had a really really tough time of it because I think the themes of the show and the nature of the character that I was playing really did actually sort of penetrate the the kind of armor I'd built up or it it managed to sort of get past the mechanisms that I'd built and the the sort of coping skills that I'd learned up until that point in respect of playing a character and that being a distinction from who I am is that because he you know he's a he's a pharmaceutical salesman who was you know complicit in in in things that you might not necessarily agree with you know how much does that fuck with your head knowing that you're you know it's a character and you know that you're an actor but you're still having to deliver these lines and and act out on on things that you wouldn't morally necessarily be aligned with yes exactly you know I was really annoyed at myself that I that I didn't I was really angry at myself that I allowed the character and the themes of that kind of like seep into my sort of everyday life or I allowed a blurring of lines between the character and myself as much as I did because, you know, I thought I'd known better at that point.

52:46I thought I'd got past that. As you said, it's an up and down squiggly line. It's a bowl of pasta, which is a very strange analogy that I use, but a lot of my analogies are food-based. You know, I'd allowed for this sort of tangling of wires between who I was and, you know, this character. And I felt really silly. And I also felt like, oh, that sounds a bit pretentious coming from an actor. Like, oh, I've got lost in the character kind of thing. But I kind of really did sort of start to really come away at the end of the day. So really hating myself and feeling really guilty and feeling really ashamed.

53:19And but I will also say that the compassion and the empathy and the kindness that I experienced from the show creators and the producers at that time was unbelievable. And they were really amazing to me. as well my friends and family and uh you know that that's one of the examples i'm talking about where i've been really fortunate and i i recognize and you're so right to point out that that is not an industry standard unfortunately um and it obviously ought to be and hopefully we're moving that direction but i was sort of surprised by how well i was looked after in that moment because i really was going through it and it was kind of becoming an enemy to my progress or my ability to do my job to the best of my abilities.

54:01I guess also people on that set really cared because they knew they were making something that wasn't just frivolous fun. It was something that was, you know, happening in the moment and it was affecting people that you guys were working with. And it's a duty of care. They've got to get that portrayal across accurately, but also they don't want to damage someone's mental health in the process, I'm sure. And, you know, you just want to work with people that get it and care about. And I'm sure you're, you know, part of your process in choosing what to work on is very much based on what message you want to put out there and how you want to deliver it.

54:35Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think it's I think one thing I also learned, you know, over the course of my career is like I'm prepared to say when I don't actually feel mentally well enough to do something. And of course, you know, at times I've been in a very privileged position to be able to turn down work in order to kind of say, like, make that sort of adjustment or kind of enforce that for myself. Other times maybe I haven't, but I try whenever I can afford to, to sort of make sure that I'm not doing something that is going to jeopardize my mental well-being. Because that has to kind of come first.

55:13And I haven't always put that first. and then yeah the thing that I care about increasingly is the kind of social application of the work and what the conversation around it is going to be or how is that potentially impacting the people that are watching it and is this going to sort of improve someone's sort of life experience hopefully or their perspective on something you know and that can be as simple as like giving someone a laugh and an escape from a tough time. Oh it's so important. Right? I re-watched We're the Millers the other day and I was howling. I'd actually forgotten how a producer Anushka is obsessed with Withermillers.

55:48Oh, that's so nice. But I needed a good belly laugh. Right. And that can't be underestimated. Yeah. Laughing till your ribs hurt is therapy in itself. It's the best. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

56:31Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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57:37And then let's talk about The Bear, because it's obviously a show that we all know you're a huge fan of. I am a huge fan of it. And extremely excited to be a part of. I'm more of a fan than a cast member, if we're honest. I really am. They've let a fanboy out on set. But you've got such a great character, heavily tattooed pastry chef, who has these deep, meaningful conversations whilst making delicate pastry. It's such a combination. But you're just loving filming that. I am. I'm really loving it for her. I'm so lucky to do that. That was a show that, in truth, it was a show that I'd been trying to sort of make myself for like 10 years.

58:14I've been obsessed with the hospitality industry and have so much reverence for people who work in it and chefs in particular. And I've been wanting to sort of create something about chefs for a long time. And I've sort of half penned very bad scripts and, you know, devised pitches for a show about this world before and never really got anywhere with it. and rightly so like everything I created was was not very good I'm first to admit that and then when the bear came along I was like oh this is this is what I wish I could have made this is it and so I got the chance to meet Chris Stora the creator and I just said I would love to have any small role in this if you would have me sort of thing and didn't really think anything would come of it I had a dynamite conversation with Chris and I was like if nothing else comes of it I've just connected with a lovely human who's who's so talented and and even more importantly just a nice guy and he was kind enough to write me that that role of chef luca and it really was life-changing and really life-affirming and it also underscored i think an instinct in me which is that cooking and you know interactions with food and especially the creation of dishes and sharing it with people is really good for my mental well-being so good yeah and other people's hopefully burn anything too badly oh yeah i know i'm making a lovely little doll for my parents tonight and I'm already working out what is going in that little fucking doll.

59:34I cannot wait. My mum will go can I help? No, I'm doing it. I'm making this with love for you and the intricate process of doing so will make me feel so good. How were your pastry skills before the bear? My pastry skills were like literally zero. You had to go to pastry school? What happened? So I was really lucky. I loved cooking and I was like a keen hug. Pastry's hard. Pastry's so fucking hard. I've tried to make croissants. it's near impossible it's the layering of the butter is insane fucking nightmare it's a nightmare once and they were sort of vaguely passable but like if you saw them in a shop window you'd be like oh Jesus what happened there like they were yeah yeah they were edible is all I mean yeah it's the laminating process and basically doing it in the the room has to be the right temperature or else oh I didn't know this this is a tip I need oh yeah so the room's what temperature are we talking about well I wish I knew you only have to look at my cross on the snow No, I didn't get the temperature right.

1:00:30But like, yeah, the butter melting out in between the sheets of pastry is a fucking nightmare. Shit show. Yeah, absolute shit show. Yeah. It's objectively one of the hardest things to do. Yeah. When I read the part, I was so excited. I'd never seen my name written in a script before. So what I mean to say is normally, you know, it says the character name. And in the email that you got, you know, it says, I'll take a look at this character for the purpose of auditioning or meeting or whatever else. This is for you. And it said Will Poulter next to the character. and I was like, fucking hell, that's my name.

1:01:00I was so excited. And then it said pastry chef and I thought, oh fuck. You know, I could just about maybe fake it with some training as a chef who focused on savoury but pastry I knew nothing about. And actually it was great because it put me outside of my comfort zone and I got straight into training and I got really lucky. I got to work with Courtney Storer who's our unbelievable sort of producer. She's head of all the kind of food stuff on the show and she herself is a chef, an amazing chef I should add and a lot of the stories are actually inspired by her experience as well so started working with Courtney immediately and as a as a result of working on the show I've got to work at amazing restaurants Black Axe Mangala in London St John Trullo from the lovely Connor Gad I got to work with Dave Berron at Pajoli in Santa Monica and his new restaurant Celine in Santa Monica and it's just they've just been like dream experiences I've been so lucky.

1:01:55So from all of those amazing restaurants, what is the dish that you are now serving up as like your showpiece when people come over? Oh my gosh. You know, I have... Is it quite wanky? It's... Is it like a miso glazed aubergine or something? 17 different elements. With tahini and yeah. No, it's not... Do you know what's really... I'll tell you what's really like embarrassing is for all the things I've learned and had to like make for the show or in preparation or dishes I've helped out on, et cetera, et cetera, at these restaurants. Like my favorite thing to bake is cookies. Yeah. Like so simple.

1:02:30Yeah. I've become quite obsessive about them. And my favorite thing, cookies and brownies are something that are like so easy, but they're also like so shareable. Universally loved. Yeah, exactly. And at the end of the day, people like want to eat that shit. Yeah, they do. If I'm being completely honest, it's as simple as like cookies and brownies that I'm making the most these days. But I'm really excited to get back into my cooking this year, do even more of it. I love it. And I think one of the things I've realized through the show as well is there's a massive parallel between acting and cooking in the sense that what you're doing is you're emotionally transferring something.

1:03:10and and you know in a character in a performance i think you are trying to emotionally affect someone and appeal to their senses and cooking's exactly the same you are putting you know emotion into you know something you're creating you're often playing on people's memory and appealing to their sense of nostalgia and you're also adding senses to the experience like smell and taste so So in a way, like cooking is almost a kind of more complete version of what I think acting is, you know, in respect of appealing to people's senses and trying to give them a kind of transformative experience. Is what you're saying you're giving up acting to start a restaurant?

1:03:52I'm not nearly good enough, arguably to do either. But if I wasn't an actor, I would love to be a chef. I don't know quite honestly whether I have the resilience because one thing that is not lost on me through my dipping in and out of kitchens is just how hard it is. The hours. How many hours, you know, for much less pay than actors get, you know, relatively speaking in a lot of cases. And yeah, the hours are really, really intense. And often it's without thanks. You know, it's without sort of acknowledgement. It's behind closed doors. And that's another reason why I think, you know, people in the hospitality industry work so hard, you know, in the name of service, you know, without any expectation to get anything back.

1:04:35And I really respect that, too. Yeah. Keep making those brownies, I'd say, just for fun. It's just good for the head. We're going to finish by asking you, where is your happy place, Will? Where is my happy place? My happy place is in my mum and dad's kitchen. um yeah i think so you know i i've been trying to recreate and i hope to recreate the feeling in my kitchen that has always been in my mom and dad's kitchen what's the magic there what's the what's the little thing that's my mom's food is a big yeah and my dad won't be offended by that it's not that he doesn't contribute to the magic at all but uh you know he'll agree that in in large part it's it's down to my mom's food which has always kind of brought my family together and regardless of what we've all been going through I think food and specifically the food that she's created has kind of nourished us all from both a physical and mental place and so I've taken great inspiration from that I think it's why I'm in love with cooking and I'm in love with food and really you know my involvement in the bear it feels so kind of special and personal that's all really in large part thanks to my mum and the sense of kind of community and how much our family has kind of benefited from from her cooking in that kitchen so your lovely mum my mum's a legend she's head chef so love that yes chef yeah yeah exactly oh well it's been such a treat talking to you thanks for having me on I'm such a fan of the podcast and it's so special so thank you for making it thanks will what without being patronizing what a delightful young man sort of well brought up well-rounded human who's already got so much self-awareness and is so interested in introspection and getting to the bottom of things and i love that and i found that chat deeply fascinating and i hope you did too um incredibly talented human who's also just a very lovely humble guys just arrived on his own no big hollywood sort of entourage with him and i think he got the tube back home after probably to his mums for some dinner now i mentioned that mel robbins might be coming on the podcast soon she will be later in the year and while you wait for that one you can always listen back to the time she came on a little while ago it was an absolutely brilliant conversation to scroll back in the old archive or there'll be a link in the show notes right remember all that exciting happy place festival news i mentioned earlier we're going to be continuing to announce everything that you need to know on instagram over the coming weeks so make sure you're there with us at happy place official all right lovelies until next time massive thanks again to will to the producer anushka tate at happy place studios and to you believe in yourself today all right i will too

1:07:38so

1:07:47hi this is nox from the popcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors and zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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