"You can't be a people pleaser and a leader!" Emma Grede on self-belief and female ambition

0:00Hello, I'm Fearne Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that helps you go after what you want. Today I'm chatting to Emma Grede. Emotional hygiene for me has always been about how close can I get to myself and how can I understand what is serving me and what I really want. And that's like holding a vision for yourself. And I do not mean manifestation and vision boards. I am uninterested in that. you need to have like a concrete vision to like how do I want to live what is important to me not what did I see on social like what do I want to do and how do I want to live and then how do I match that back with my behaviors and that's when you start saying no to a bunch of stuff well hello you're gorgeous people um you find me today slightly delirious I'm just not sleeping again I went through such a good patch of sleep I was so chuffed with myself which I think is fine We should celebrate this.

0:55Well, it's quite a big win, actually, sleeping well for me. I've had two shitty mcshit nights and I'm just a little bit sleepy, but it's a blip. And I think the thing to remember in these moments is I'll get back to the good sleep. It will happen. But I think when you haven't slept well, and I'm sure there's many of you listening to this now who haven't for various reasons, everything from having a baby to perimenopause to your brain doesn't stop chattering at night. the thing you notice the next day is you just feel like you can't do anything to your max capacity work parenting socializing just functioning as a normal human being quite frankly but I think today's episode is perfectly timed because when I look at well two of those things parenting and working Emma Greed is so good and grounded and sensible actually talking about these things I don't want to give away too much but especially the parenting stuff I think you'll like her advice you might not agree with it or you might be jumping out of your seat shouting hoorah you'll find out very very shortly so let's talk about Emma she is the entrepreneur best known for co-founding Good American with Khloe Kardashian I've got a pair of them jeans they're well good and she's chief product officer at Kim Kardashian's Skims too I've also got a Skims bra on right now This is by no means an ad, but I genuinely bloody love that bra.

2:21I read her new book, Start With Yourself, a few months ago. And I've been telling everybody little anecdotes from it ever since because there's just so much in there that really stuck with me, especially around parenting. You might just think this book is about business. It's so not. It's even if you don't work at all or you work in a job and you're not particularly passionate about it, this chat will take you into all different areas, you know, including sort of confidence. And well, let me be a bit more specific, actually, because I've got some great things to dive into with Emma. One of them is about being unapologetically ambitious.

3:01I know that we do have some men listening in. Good for you. Spread the word. But for women out there listening, we often find it uncomfortable to admit that we're ambitious and we should not. We should not feel anything but pure elation and joy at that fact. We also talk about how to give to others while respecting our own value. That is such a big one. Again, as women, we often think, oh, no, you know, you can have my time for nothing. I'll go above and beyond. You have to pay me extra or whatever it might be. and I think that's probably less so in male roles at work. Also getting comfortable with talking about money.

3:43Fuck me, I am not comfortable talking about money at all and you'll hear that in a bit. Working on emotional intelligence in professional environments. I hadn't seen that one coming in the book and it leapt out at me. So important in our lives and working capacities and also why rules around parenting have gone bloody bonkers, which I think we all sort of know, but we're going along with it.

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6:23All right, here we go. This is the show.

6:48Emma, I'm so happy to meet you and to have you on the podcast. Your book has been game changing for me. Oh my gosh, what a place to start. First of all, I feel like you have such a familiar face to me. It's so weird when you meet someone that you've known on the telly forever and ever. So I'm like, oh, I know her. Here we are in real life. We'll say because I stalk you online. Oh, you're so lovely. There's so many things I want to pull out of the book. The first sort of overarching thing that I love is the fact that you don't sugarcoat what it takes to be successful and what ambition means. Because I think a lot of the time we get this really confusing messaging, especially as women, that we're meant to achieve sort of ultimate balance and feeling like we can manage with it all.

7:34And actually what you say online, but also in your book is it's fucking hard. It takes obsession, I would say, proper dedication and balance is is not in the equation. No, it's not even close to the equation. and it's so interesting because I love where you start and talking about at the end of the day I wrote this book because I wanted to serve women I didn't want to create something that was yet another impossible standard and sort of gaslighting because I think somewhere between this idea of like you can manifest everything and put it on a vision board and it will come and then this like other you know total side that feels unreachable we don't really have the truth and I think if I can do anything well and if I should do anything well it should be to write something down that is my truth like here are the things that work for me and I don't sit here and say this is what's for everybody but it's like if you want an exceptional career that is going to have to be met with extraordinary effort and to tell anybody anything different is absolutely crazy and so I just wanted to write something that felt like my truth and also something that's going to be useful because every woman I know is exhausted has no time and so if you give me half an hour I'm going to give you something back and I want to give you something that's actionable and you can take into your life and be like, that was good.

8:50That was a game changer. That's something I can use. What I love is the way you've written it. It's straight talking. And again, that's what we need. It was so refreshing. You're just like, say the fucking thing. Say the thing. You're just saying the thing. Well, that's maybe because I don't know any other way to do it, Fern. I love that. If I could falute around it, maybe I would. I'm like, just too straightforward a girl. Say the thing. No, I love it because it's just so clear. And like you say, it's not for everyone. And I think a lot of the time, again, we read books where, and I've maybe even been guilty of this in my own books.

9:19You try and write for everybody. And this conversation, I think there is a lot to be taken for all women from this conversation. But what this book is saying is if you're ambitious, listen to me. I'm really ambitious. And again, I think a lot of women out there feel like they can't say that or there's something wrong with that. But if you're ambitious, it is going to mean sacrifice and compromise and it being all in. There is no other way. No, and this is the thing that I want everyone to understand. Like you can be ambitious in so many different ways. But ambition to work requires some discomfort.

9:56And so this idea that we're in at the moment, especially in this social media landscape that we have, where we're comfort seeking and we always need to be happy. That's just not the reality of my life. and you know I think that we talk a lot in the culture about these trade-offs but trade-offs are always things that you wanted to do it's not like you'd get to trade off like all the great things for a bunch of shit things no it's actually all the stuff that you want to do and then you've got to figure out like how to fit it in and so my experience just tells me that people want to be told the truth and at the end of the day start with yourself the book that I've written is about self-leadership this is about what can I do what can I impact and how do I take responsibility for the things that I want and hiding behind sort of like quiet ambition or performative purpose doesn't help women at all right it's like you have to put money and your ambition and your sense of what you want right at the middle of your plans you can't like pretend around it and so I'm just trying to say like there is a way to do this stuff and there are so many rules that exist in the culture that don't serve women and so this book is here to actually dismantle the things that are around the rules that are there that don't work for women anymore and that's really why I wrote it because I was like there is just a bunch of stuff that we have default done and that happens to us and we don't need it anymore it's not working but like you say discomfort has to come into this conversation because you're exactly right a lot of the time we're going but how can I just either feel better or like really good all the time or avoid discomfort and one of the key things that again I got from the book was we have to be comfortable with getting feedback and we can't be too fragile around that and again I think we can sometimes walk into dangerous territory where we're like no one can say anything bad to me because I can't handle it and yeah you know it's still gonna hurt and you're gonna feel upset or fucked off or dented but we've got to be able to pick ourselves back up and get on with it a million percent and it works both ways right Because you also can't be a people pleaser and a leader.

11:59So you need to get comfortable making other people feel discomfort because otherwise you won't get what you want. If you're going around and you're like, and here's the thing that I want women to also understand. Two things can be true at once. You can be deeply empathetic and be somebody that's giving honest feedback. You don't need to be an arsehole. Do you know what I mean? And so you can be a good person. You can be a great leader. You can be a fair, lovely girl. And you can have all of these other traits. And so I'm trying to be like a model for how I want other people to think about needing to behave.

12:32Because this idea that, you know, we need to behave like men in business, that doesn't work for us either. Because we're not. That's not how we're wired. And so I think that we just need to borrow from the boys. Still be who we are. Still be women. Still be in community. But if you're operating from this place of scarcity, like you're not going to get anywhere. Yeah, I love that. Because you say towards the end of the book that, yes, you're straight talking. I love that you've read the book. You really have read it. It's so good. Of course I've read it. My worst pet peeve, and this has happened to me previously, is I've guessed it on someone's podcast.

13:02They've not read my fucking book. First of all, it's atrocious. It does happen. I think it's outrageous. I mean, but you're testament to that because I was supposed to come like a few weeks ago and you hadn't finished the book. And so it was like, we're going to have to wait. And I was like, I fucking love that. I wish she's actually reading it. I wouldn't dare. I think it is so disrespectful to the person who's given up the time to come on for me not to have read the book. Well, thank you. I will sit there and read until it's two in the morning if I have to. But also much easier when the book is amazing.

13:32Thank you. I mean, I've written every note. You've got some good notes there. I'm not going to lie. I've written these notes for me because I needed these notes. But I love that you say, because I've morphed into this role of being traditionally a broadcaster, but now I run a team and I'm trying to find my feet with it all. and I have been very guilty of being a people pleaser before and not wanting to upset anybody. And you say you're straight talking. Sometimes you can be blunt, but you tell the person what you need them to do or what they're not doing brilliantly. None of your team would ever say that you're not a nice person, but what they definitely would say is that you're a fucking good leader.

14:14Yeah, I hope so. Here's the thing. I think I'm firm but fair. I have very high expectations for myself and for everybody around me. But by the same token, I'm really honest about all the mistakes that I've made. And so you create the conditions for people to be able to do that. I'm out of the office at five o 'clock every day because I need to go home, be with my kids, do bath and bed and a bit of a story. So I create the conditions for other women to be able to leave at that time because I'm doing that every day. I've made that OK in my place. I make a lot of mistakes. I own those mistakes. The only thing that's unforgivable is not learning from them.

14:49So I think that when you show people what is like, what is the possibility for them and how to behave, they follow that. And so I don't think anyone's ever sitting there going, I wonder what Emma's thinking. You don't need to wonder because I've told you. I'm not waiting for a moment that you ask for feedback. I'm going to tell you the truth in the moment. And that's just how it is. And some people love that. Some people find it really abrasive and difficult. But I think it's really not helpful for women when, you know, women come to me with ideas for their businesses or, you know, trying to raise money.

15:20I'm going to give you the real feedback because you need real feedback. And we don't have time for women to be given like platitudes or like unuseful information and be sold down a river. It's like, no, no, no. Based on my experience, here's how I can help you. And I'm really like, I hate that idea of like kind of performative women supporting women. I'm like, how are you supporting a woman? If you tell the truth, if you share your information, if you tell people, here's what I was paid. Here's how much I'm paying for this thing. Here's how I use this thing. That's how you help women move forward.

15:53It isn't by kind of gatekeeping your information. And that includes your feedback. Like, we need that. We deserve that of each other. Yeah, it's a massively generous thing to do. And on that note, another thing that I loved about the book is you absolutely own your achievements, own your position within all of it to the point where, because I think this is a real problem for women, especially women that run a team or run a business or have done well and have achievements, is that then there's this expectation that they should give everything they can to everybody that says, can you help me? Can you invest in me?

16:28I just need some money. and I think I've definitely fallen into that trap before thinking I don't deserve all this so let me just give everything you know everyone everything I can which does I think actually lead to scarcity because you're just boundaryless and everyone takes from you in you know energetically in whatever way yeah and you're actually very bound to going yeah I can't help you actually I'll give you advice I'll give you feedback but I'm not just going to give you a million quid that's not how this works or I can help you and here's my expectation in return yes right because it's like I'm not doing it for nothing it's a two-way street and I think that what we've got to get straight it's like what is advice that is easy and you know low lift to give versus what are my expertise that you need to pay for yeah and having a clear idea of your worth and therefore what your price is and what somebody needs to give you in return like is the thing so when somebody comes to me and says hey could you just introduce me to this person because I have this great business idea and I actually think I can like create this I'm like great then I'll take a piece of it yeah Because my reputation, my endorsement, my introduction is worth something.

17:34And the reason that I can do that and you can't is because of 20 years of work. Not because I have somebody's phone number. So it's like you've got to understand what is your value. And I think as soon as we understand that business is transactional. That's what we're doing. We're not in it. It's like, you know, it's not a favor. And you can do someone a favor. But there's a limit to that favor. And I think that you just, again, I'm quite honest about that. I'm like, that's totally cool. and here's what I'd like in return. And more often than not, people are like, oh, I didn't really expect to give you something.

18:04That's okay. You didn't know that, but now you do. So then you're either going to give it to me or you don't want the thing. Fucking love it. This is the, honestly, this is exactly what we need to hear. It is. I remember this story, it was a pretty famous story, but somebody once went up to Picasso and said, oh, can you just do like a little doodle? Just a doodle. Take your five minutes. Yeah, and he was like, yeah, that'll be whatever, 20 grand, 50 grand, whatever he said at the time. And they were like, yeah but it's going to take you two minutes and he's like no no it's taken 30 years totally and that's the bit again a missing piece of the puzzle for women to go no i a deserve to be here and i've worked my tits off to get here and therefore i have x amount of years experience that is valuable and i don't think we're told that a million percent and i think that this happens to women that do like creative industries or in creative services you're a hairdresser but you can just give me a little trim.

18:53No, no, I can't just give you a little trim. You know, it's like, and I, again, I want this to be understood and heard, not in a way that is about being selfish, right? But we have to place value on things and we have to be able to talk about money. Listen, I host a podcast and I love doing the podcast and I speak to the most successful women on the planet, but they still come into me and they don't want to talk about money. And when we avoid the conversation of money guess what happens money avoids us and so you've got to be able to name it and claim it and talk to it so that you can like extrapolate the value from it so this is about the type of conversations that men have all the time how many podcasts have i heard where they're talking about it and the thing is women are amazing at making money they are amazing at creating value in companies i know this because i employ hundreds and hundreds of women but two things can be true it once again, right?

19:49You can, you can care about a cause deeply and do really meaningful work and care about the money. You can care about money and a lot of other stuff. And so again, we don't need to say, oh, you know, that like, that's gross. I don't really want to talk about that stuff. You know, the money will find me. You're going to do good work and the money will come. Guess what? It ain't, it ain't coming. You have to go and you have to find it and you have to name it and you have to claim it and you have to pull it in. That's the only way that it works. Yeah. And I, But I love, again, A, instigating that conversation, getting women to talk about it.

20:21And, you know, I want to do this with my daughter, like make sure that she feels confident in that space talking about it. And she gets older. How old is she? Ten. Ten. I love that. She might as well be 40. I have a nine-year-old daughter. She's like so organised. That age, they're literally just like something else. Yeah, that's it. Unreal. I actually thought about this. I was like, the next book I write needs to be Start For Yourself, the tween version. Yes. I need to get them earlier. We do because they know what's what. They so do. She's going to be teaching me. But I think it's so important.

20:49But also not being deluded about money in terms of there is still this very global blanket coverage assumption that once you've made millions of pounds, your life is going to be amazing. Sadly not. And like you say, like me, I'm from a working class family. So you know what it's like to not have money or to be in scarcity or to be thinking about money a lot versus now having lots of money and having the freedom to be able to buy a beautiful home, send your kids to a great school, take your children on holiday. But it doesn't fix everything. And actually, it doesn't touch the fundamentals in life, which are connection, love, loss, grief, heartache, all of those things.

21:29Can't fix that shit. Well, but this is where you're so right, right? I feel like money will solve like all your money problems, right? That's what it's so good at. And that's why this book is a business book that actually starts by addressing your emotions. Because when you are making decisions from a place that's based on how you might be feeling in any given moment, you will make bad decisions, not just in your work and your business, but in your life. And that changes everything. And so I really want women to make decisions from a different place. It cannot come from, you know, fear. It cannot come from this idea that perhaps, you know, that you have abandonment or you have scarcity or any of that stuff.

22:11So getting around and understanding how you're making decisions and where that stuff comes from, especially as it relates to money and the stories that we attach to money that come from our childhood is really important. And the sooner you get to grips with that stuff, the sooner you will make better decisions. It's just a fact. That is, I think, a subject that people will be surprised to read about in a book that is about business, but is about so much more. Is that, well, you call it, and I fucking love this, impeccable emotional hygiene. Love. Biz had a lot of therapy over here. She lives in LA.

22:47I mean, lives in London, having loads of therapy. I'm here for that. Gotta have all the therapy. I'm here for it. But I love that because I think maybe in the male arena, that would be less talked about in the context of business. But for women in business and for your own personal story, that has been of paramount importance to have impeccable emotional hygiene. What has that meant for you? You know, it has meant a lot of therapy, but it's also been understanding and recognising the patterns that repeat in my life. and I think that you know I I was raised by a single mom I'm the eldest of four kids and we always joke in my family that like my mom's the dad I'm the mom and we have three kids together so I was like by the time I was 12 I was like I've got this down like I know how to be a mom I can make packed lunches iron shirts get the kids out the door pretend I'm going to school come home watch Oprah like that was my day right so it's like I really like had this life but I you know it's interesting for me because I didn't have I didn't grow up with that idea of recognizing how my emotions were playing into my behavior.

23:51I was like a default angry kid. And that was anyone like, you know, you could push past me in the street. I was losing my shit. You know, it's just like, that's how I was raised to be like tough and to not let people take advantage. And as soon as you get into a professional workplace, that is not something that works. That is not conducive to me getting ahead. So I was like, all right, all of this stuff that I've got, like doesn't serve me. It's not working to get me where I need to be. And for me, it was really that selfish in the beginning. I was like, I have to get rid of some of these things I have because they're not working to get me where I want to go.

24:26And as soon as I made that connection, that actually it was within my control, that I was the one that was creating these stories in my head, I learned to go inside and I learned to get close to myself. And it was so interesting because back then we didn't talk about that meditation or mindfulness in that way. It was like, take a deep breath, count to 10 and go inside. And I would like have a conversation with myself and was like, this isn't who I am. I'm actually not that angry. I just don't know the other ways to behave. And so emotional hygiene for me has always been about how close can I get to myself and how can I understand what is serving me and what I really want.

25:06And that's why the book actually starts in this place of like holding a vision for yourself and I do not mean manifestation and vision boards I am uninterested in that it works to the extent that it works right it's like you need to have like a concrete vision to like how do I want to live what is important to me not what did I see on social that maybe I need to partake interest right like it's like what's important to me like what do I want to do and how do I want to live and how do I action it exactly And then how do I match that back with my behaviors? And that's when you start saying no to a bunch of stuff because you're like, I don't need that.

25:40Like, I don't need to spend time doing this thing because I saw it over here because that's not part of how I want to live and what I want to do. So in my life, I feel like the emotional hygiene piece has been like, I don't want to be in a state of constant dismay. I don't want a headache because I'm so angry. I don't want to feel fearful and like, you know, be kind of chasing things that are not actually the things that don't matter to me. So I've really tried to just figure out like what actually matters. Yeah. What is the stuff I care about? I think it's deeply impressive because it's so much easier, especially when you're, you know, in your 20s, you're trying to figure this stuff out.

26:17It's so much easier just to blame everybody else. Like you're making me angry. You're pissing me off. You're making me upset. And then just to sit back and feeling everything. And it's not about suppressing anger or suppressing these emotions. Actually, I think it's really healthy for women to feel anger. But it's how much we're suffering within that and letting it fester in us versus, like you say, going in, looking at it, going, yeah, I'm feeling fucking pissed off. Why? What can I do about it? And how can I not let it take over the show? Because I'm the same. I can be feisty and it can like my blood can boil.

26:51and if I'm not careful, I get it out of my body. It can just take over for days. 100%. And I know that feeling of also making decisions based on fear. Like I'm too scared to do that thing. I'm worried what somebody else is going to think. I, you know, I don't know the answer to that. And it's like all of that stuff will keep you stuck. And what you have to understand is like nobody's watching you. Like nobody is thinking about you like you're thinking about you. And so when you make mistakes, half the time no one notices. And so I've just kind of got to this place now where it's like, you know what, if I feel fear or if I'm worried about something, it's probably the direction I'm supposed to go in.

27:28And I don't mean it in that way of like, oh, like, you know, lean into your fear. It's like, no, no, no. Really understand like what is scaring you? Because usually it's just some stuff that you have going on in your head. It's not even real. And so now I've learned and I've said to myself, you know what, whenever I feel fear, what is the reason for that? Why does it exist? And that's what I mean by kind of getting close to yourself. It's easier the older you get. But it is something that I started practicing sort of like in my early 20s because I understood that most of my problems were here.

28:01They weren't real. They were like all because of me. And so when I say start with yourself, I'm like, go into yourself, understand yourself and figure out how much stuff you can actually affect in your life. It's humbling. Unbelievable. It's really humbling. It's humbling because you can't be the victim. You can't be. You know, we've all been through shit in varying degrees. And we could all sit there and go, well, if that person hadn't done that, I wouldn't feel like this. But actually, if we want change, we've got to realise we've got the autonomy to help ourselves out of it. And I think that is just such a key piece.

28:36And if you look back to, you know, you talk about your childhood a lot in the book. And you mentioned East London a hell of a lot. which I love because you can see how it's impacted you and informed who you are today. How do you think, you know, you talk even about friends, family members getting in trouble, going to jail, that you could have seen yourself going down a very different path. But you made that decision. You had that moment of introspection where you thought, I want something different for myself. You know, I feel like East London gave me so many things because where I grew up, first of all it was like a proper neighborhood like a proper community you know you could knock on anyone's door and be like my mom's not home yet i need a pack of crisps and they'll give you a pack of crisps you know what i mean it was that type of place and by the same token you had to tell the truth there was this moral baseline that existed that was like you are a good person or you're a shit person are you going to tell the truth are you going to be reliable are you going going to keep to your word.

29:34And that was just how I was raised. You were polite to your elders. That was just like, you called everybody Mrs. Such and Such. You said that please and thank you. That was like you were representing your family. You were going out into the world and there was just a way to behave and a way to be. And I actually think that is a foundation for my success in business because people need to be able to rely on you. They need you to walk into a room and say you're going to do something and then you need to deliver on it. And I learned when I came up in my corporate career as, you know, working in partnerships, it's like you went to an agency, you had to deliver the thing that you said you were going to deliver.

30:10You had to best endeavor to do the stuff that you said you were going to do. And all the talk in the world, which I'm very good at, was not going to get you out of like this thing someone is paying for, someone has an expectation and you need to do the thing. And so I actually credit East London with so much of like who I am and my personality. But by the same token, I was like, I don't want to stay here. I imagined like a big life for myself. I imagined like traveling and seeing different things and meeting different people. And I was like, I don't want to have to stay this small, but I knew it was down to me.

30:45No one was coming to like lift me up and go, there you go, princess. Like there's no discernible talent here. I can't sing. I can't dance. I can't. Do you know what I mean? There was nothing like all the boys that I knew were going off and they were becoming like MCs, DJs or footballers. I was like, zero talent over here. What's next? Just hard work. Right. So it's like, for me, that was my way out. But I talk about this idea of like, just being really excellent because what works for me is being good all the way along. And I get some people, so many women that say to me, you know, but you're in this amazing position now.

31:21And it's like, yes, but you know what? Like when I made sandwiches, when I delivered the paper, when I worked in a clove shop, like I was excellent at that thing. I was the number one account, you know, sales girl when I worked at Caramillan. I make a sandwich better than anybody I know. I would have a certain way to fold up the paper. But even this morning as I left the hotel, I take the time to fold it up and it's like, oh, that's so funny. That's how I used to fold papers when I did the paper round because we have small letterboxes in England and you have to like get it through without it like scratching.

31:48you know but it was like a whole thing and I think that that level of attention to detail and excellence and pride in what you're doing it goes in you like it just is like that's the expectation so again I expect that from people that are around me but I give that in everything I'm coming into you I'm going to give you my best for the hour that I'm with you and I'm going to take notice of what you need to do and what your audience wants and how things should be done but that's just like how you show up. That's just how to be a good person and a good human being. And I don't think it takes that much.

32:24So I try to bring that into every situation and it works.

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35:03I'm so interested in the East London American mix we've got going on because I think it works both ways in terms of so your straight talking upbringing which I feel very familiar with that's sort of similar to I think how I grew up and you were just polite and you have manners and you knew that you needed to, you know, kind of do your best in all areas to, you know, change your life and do something different. I, whenever I've worked in America in my 20s and did a couple of TV shows there, and it felt like the opposite of that there in terms of straight talking. There was a lot of hyperbolic stuff and like what is real, what is not, and I couldn't quite find my feet with it.

35:45So I'm imagining that's refreshing to the people that you're working with in the States. but equally in the UK we're very good at going oh no I'm sorry not me I don't worry about me I'm just over here doing my little thing and in America I'm imagining again yeah very good at going I'm the fucking best I will talk about how much I earn I am going to be excellent at what I do I am going to take over the world and no one's judging whereas I think here it's who do you think she is you know it's a hundred percent so what how are you calibrating all of everything I've just First of all, it's an absolutely brilliant question.

36:21And I think that the first time I failed in the US was exactly that, like not understanding that the way they behave, the way they speak is really hyperbolic. It is really like you'd go to LA to a meeting and instead of them saying, you know, it's really funny. I always talk about like the differences in cultures. You know, in England, we talk about the weather for about the first 15 minutes. Then, you know, it's like, who do you know each other? And then, you know, you get to the work and then it'll be like, You know, we'll call you, whatever. And in Sweden, you can walk into a meeting and they'll be like, there is absolutely nothing we can use your agency for.

36:56Blunt as fuck. And I'm like, what? Really? I love it. You know, in America, oh, my God, it's amazing. We've got a job for you. We're going to let you know. We'll send you the brief. And it's like, meh. Nobody calls. And the first time I went to America with my first agency, I failed miserably because I didn't understand that. I didn't understand how much kind of performative stuff was in there. I took everybody at their East London face value and I was like, like, there's no business here. So what I think has happened with me is that there becomes that you get a level of discernment, right? And now I'm in a position where I can sniff through it, I think.

37:35And what has become really interesting is when the tables are turned and what I have to give, people need. And so I'm not trying now to fit into something and to create something that is sellable. I'm like, this is what I have. This is what I'm doing. You're either in or you're out. And what comes in America is like unbelievable scale. You know, I talk about this all the time that I work as hard on some of my English kind of accounts and wholesale partners. And they might have like one store in London as I would with, you know, someone who's got 159 stores in America. There's no difference to the amount of work.

38:15It's just the scalability that changes. And so I think, you know, being English in America is a gift, an absolute gift. And I've learned that kind of balance of taking everything that I have as a British person and then kind of putting it together with this American sensibility and, you know, selling myself and blowing my own horn. and I think the juxtaposition of the same hopefully means I can like continue a little bit of the crossover. Without a doubt. I think, you know, we all need to learn from that here that it's okay to say, I'm really good at this. This is what I have to offer. Especially if you're really good at it.

38:52Yeah, and a woman. I think we're so bad at it. We're so bad because we're waiting for another woman usually to go, oh, well, it's all right for you or whatever and it's like, oh no, and then you start to question yourself and whether you should have spoken up in the first place. So I think we could all be in that way a bit more American. Totally. It would serve us. A little bit more braggadocious. You don't need to be a twat with it, you know. But I don't, from reading your book. But you can still do it. I have not, reading a single word of that, at one point thought, oh, Emma's bragging or Emma's telling us how great she is.

39:28It's just, you're just telling the truth. It's that simple. You're just factually stating where you're at, what you've achieved, where you've come from. And we should be in. I'm massively inspired by that. I'm not so jealous of Emma. I'm like, I am so pumped and buzzed reading your story. That makes me so that makes me so happy. That's exactly what I wanted to get out of it. Because so many people are like, why would you even write a book? Like, how do you get the time? I feel like if there were a million Little Emmons, like girls that come from a background that says, this is probably not your future.

40:03This is probably not your path. And because they see it in me, they go, oh my goodness, I'm going to have a go at this. I'm going to think about things slightly differently. I'm not going to take this stuff, this insidious programming and play it out in my own life. That to me would be such a success. I want people to read this and go like, yeah, I can do that. I'm going to have a go at something a little bit different that I didn't think I can do. And I think it is so important specifically for women to get out of our own way. You are going to need some audacity. Listen, if you want money and you want to be paid what you deserve, audacity is a key part of that because nobody's coming.

40:44You're going to get your little, you know, 5, 10 percent pay rise every year. But if you want to make like big leaps, you've got to find it within yourself. right if you want like this big big career now it's like you will need sorry proximity and visibility those two things are not a nice to have they're a must-have because people don't really want to say this but nobody's like choosing you for a pay rise when they can't see you in the office it's a fact be audacious you have to be and so again and i really believe this so much right now we are desperate in the world completely desperate for more women in positions of power It is an imperative and nobody is coming to find you and say, here's some power for you.

41:27You have to take it. Right. Women are extraordinary. But the realities of how extraordinary we are are not reflected in the halls of power, on the cap tables that matter, nowhere. So it's like we have to now take the moment for ourselves and make sure that we can be in positions of power because we cannot sit and look at the world and go, where are we going? what's happening in policies and politics what's happening in the world we have to affect it that means that we need to be in it we need to be the decision makers we need to be at the top so that we can stop the behavior that we see and that isn't just about you know our jobs and our careers that's in all positions of power throughout society so i am really sitting here going this start for yourself stuff this is just not about you this is like about the world like how do we want to live what do we want to see we need to do that yeah we do it's so powerful but we've got to have self-belief and that is probably the biggest issue here because again women are not taught to have self-belief where our flaws are pointed out constantly there's these expectations we're to be perfect in all areas of our life and actually that is a big one and something that you talk about a lot in the book you you highlight moments of failure things where big projects with a lot millions of dollars behind them have either derailed or gone wrong or I've fucked them up or you fucked them up and actually and you can say that out loud and go and I've picked myself back up and continued and I think there's this expectation that we are not allowed to put a foot wrong if we want to succeed and people could sit back without knowing your backstory and go oh well she's just descended beautifully there to become this huge entrepreneur there has to be failure along the way there has to be failure and here's the thing you need to own your failure and you need to know that it doesn't define you no and here's the big difference because men go around starting businesses failing with their businesses losing money and then starting again the following day and doing that whole cycle again whereas a woman will start something make a mistake everybody will comment on it and she will believe that she is the reason the primary reason that thing didn't work out and it just ain't so there are so many things that go into failure the only thing that you have to do is learn from it but again it's not about you it's not that you didn't work that thing didn't work and so you have to have the separation to understand what are the behaviors and the things and the conditions that made that happen versus who and what are you and what is your suitability for that thing that position that leadership role that company and then separate the two things.

44:00I don't want anyone to believe that like a failure means you shouldn't be doing things. And this is the idea that like your life is in seasons. Think about how many careers you've had in one career, how many stages when you are trying to get things to when you start getting chosen for things to when you can eventually choose your things to when you're sitting here running your own thing. There's all of these seasons. And what was true of you at one point is not true of you anymore and so you have to realize that life is long and things change and they adapt and you've got to get into this mindset that actually you are in constant learning mode and your only job is to continue learning continue absorbing the information and keep going because it's never that deep like never no i love that it's never that deep i mean my favorite part of the book I literally have to put it down for a moment and almost just take in my surroundings and go, let me just let that really sink in, guys.

45:00You actually say parenting. It's not that deep. It's not. We've all gone mad. We've gone fucking mad. We've gone so mental. As if our parents gave a toss about the stuff we're worrying about. If there was an apple and a packet of crisps in the house, my mum was like, the four of them will be fine. Here's the thing. we have got to a point in culture because where are we right we are we're sitting in this place where women are constantly asked like how do you balance it all meanwhile my husband who does exactly the same never asked a sausage of that question no ever ever ever the other thing is the assumption that i have four kids and they're all at home starving because i'm not there so it's like somewhere between the two things i'm like neither is true here's the truth our kids are not a project.

45:47They are their own human beings. And guess what? They can figure it out. They need love and they need guidance. And they need to know that when stuff goes wrong, they can come to their mom and have a cuddle and I'm going to listen to them. They do not need me to usher them through every little moment of their life. If some shit goes down in school, I don't need to speak to that parent. I'm like, figure it out. Talk to the kid. Like you're having a hard moment. Like, you know, I need the teachers to do their job and I need the lunch ladies to do their job and I need the doctors to do their job and by the way i need the dad to do his job too and the rest of the family but it cannot be the sole preserve of a mother to get the kids from a to z and to worry about what they're eating what they're doing what their intake is what they're you know after school stuff is it's like guys it's not that deep nobody needs like sandwiches cut into heart shapes nobody fuck not one person like crying out loud just take a step back into parenting stuff that we're meant to be dealing with like all the whatsapps all the chats on a sunday when i get a whatsapp and i'm not even joking it's this it's a rule along and i'm like how am i meant to ingest all of this and like what it what the hell are we doing the emails from the school i can't which i don't read no good i love the when you put that in there and also the little microaggressions that only women get and this one hit deeply is when you turn up to school and maybe you've not done the school run for three days and someone goes so nice to see you i've not seen you for a long time and i'm like yeah because i've been working babes do you want to ask their dad that like that's where the anger comes back and i attack his security going what do you mean it's so annoying it's so annoying or like you say you've forgotten then it's bloody i don't know they've got to dress up as a giraffe day or whatever shit it is it's like it's it's absurd Good.

47:38Bring back 80s parenting. Listen, here's the thing. I know for a fact that when you are able to take a step back, because all families are different, right? All families decide to put their energy in different places. I am not somebody that is able to take my kids to and from school every day. I am not at the parent galas. I don't volunteer at the school. If my kid is running a race, like I am there. If it's something that's important to Lola or Gray or Lake or Rafi, I'll be there. But the truth is that we've kind of been sucked into a lot of performative parenting. That means that it's actually not about your family values.

48:12It's what you think you're supposed to do. So again, I think it's like a vision for anything. Like what kind of family do I want to have? I want a family who eats dinner together most nights. That's important to me. I like to sit there and be like, what happened in your day? Talk, you know, some shit about some other family. Like I enjoy like that thing. I like to be the person that wakes my kids up in the morning. That's it. Yeah. That's my lot. Do you know what I mean? Like I can't, like, you know, I have four kids. I can't brush everybody's hair. I can't get everybody ready. I don't get to do all of the things that I'd like to do.

48:42But when I've got those two things, the dinner, and I get them up in the morning, I am winning. Like that's it. But it can't be a laundry list of 17 things. And guess what? My kids are seeing two things. A, they are able to self-advocate. They are able to figure out, mom, like there's a school trip, you know, sign-in thing that needs sign-in. I'm like, great. It's really good that you know that and I didn't have to troll through 27 emails to get to it. So that piece is good. They also are watching somebody go out and live and fulfill their dreams. And that is important. The whole point of our lives is like self-actualization.

49:16So I think that I'm a good role model for my kids at the end of eight. And I don't actually think that ushering them through life is that good for them either. I'm so glad that you just finished that sentence in a way I was not expecting. because I thought you were about to say they're seeing somebody go out dot dot dot and work really hard because I'm in that like martyrdom headset of they just need to see that I'm working really hard and it's like no they're seeing you go out and me go out and do something that I love that you love doing. It's so important. Can I tell you a little story? I think that I had trained my kids back in the day into imagining that when I left home I wasn't having a good time so when I travel I'd be like I'll be back in like two sleeps and I love you so much and back out the door.

50:00I remember my daughter Lola saying to me, oh God, mum, I'm so sorry you have to go back to New York. And I was like, Lola, can I be honest with you? I'm going to see a bunch of my friends, going to sleep in a hotel room diagonally across the bed, room service, I'm going to have such a great time. And she said, oh, you are? Have a great time then, I'll see you on Thursday. And I was like, oh, it was me. I trained her into thinking that's something that I didn't want to do because I felt like that was the message. Whereas if you go, bye darlings, I'll be back in a few days, I get to do I'm going to go and speak to Fern Cotton I'm going to hang out with my friends in London I'm going to do my work and then I'll be back and la la la again so much of this stuff is about how are you positioning this stuff in your family I know is it something for you to feel guilty about or are you actually just teaching your children the way to behave yes that has been such a wake up call for me reading that wake up I needed waking up because honestly even whilst I was reading your book I got offered an opportunity that will take me out and about a little bit more than normal and I you know I like like you I like having the dinners I like getting my kids up I go boxing with my son every Monday like there's some non-negotiables that are just happening and this was an opportunity that I thought I really am going to enjoy that and I'm going to love it and I actually think it'd be really good for my career there's just lots of benefits to all of it but it means that on a certain few days I'm going to be doing overnights and I started to spiral I'm a terrible mom and blah blah blah and then I read your book and I'm fucking doing it yeah I'm literally saying yes do it I know but I don't think women are told we're not told this no we're not told it ever too seldomly we're not told it and again too seldomly we are apologizing even to one another so like there's this kind of performative one happens when a group of women can get together and it's like who's suffering the most yeah and I'm like you know what the suffering Olympics like let's not like let's not do it let's all be honest and you know it's like I love being with my kids but after about three hours I've probably had enough like on a Saturday I'm like yeah I was with you lot from like eight in the morning till 12 and now I'm gonna like have an hour on my own yeah like guilt what's wrong with that like stop it like we don't need to feel so pointless it's so pointless I've needed to hear all of that and so does everybody

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54:32I imagine that being a woman in the position you're in and I'm also speaking for myself with this one we deal with a lot of underhand misogyny constantly little things like you could be at an event someone isn't aware of what you've achieved and what you've done and they start speaking to your husband about business because it's just he's the man yeah I've had this so many times where I've been out and I've heard two men talking about business and I'm stood there and they don't include me and I'm like I know I understand what you're talking about I'm doing the same or tiny things which is probably just like a systemic cultural global thing you're in a restaurant and the waiter puts the bill in front of the man all the time you're like all the time or the fact that they still pour the wine for the man I'm like what is happening I'm definitely I'm definitely your customer over him it's man yeah the man can sniff the wine and swill it around but not you not all that nostril hair yeah um it's really funny for years and years while i had my agency you know we do these big christmas dinners as is the thing in london and they would always take the check to like one of the white guys that worked for me and we would laugh like every year because it'd be like of course you know sometimes i can default look 15 years old but i would laugh because I just think like, isn't that so crazy that we're still there, that those things still happen.

55:57And again, I think that so much of this is like learned behavior. These are things that exist in the culture. And until we stand up, like I am not looking for anyone else to rewrite that stuff for me because I'll be like, get the bill over here. Like, do you want to be paid or you don't want to be paid. And so for me, it's like really about meeting those moments with the right thing back, the right retort. Because at the end of the day, when you politely excuse the person's behavior as like, oh, of course he thought that such and such was going to pay the bill. You're just reinforcing the behavior.

56:32So I always have something to say. I always have a comeback, a moment because it's like I am here I am not apologizing you need to rewire the way that you think and so I'm not again going to kind of sit there and do what would be the default kind of people please oh don't make that person uncomfortable absolutely not you have to draw attention to that because people don't do better unless they know better yeah I love that I also like the fact and again I wasn't expecting to necessarily read this that you I don't know what terminology you use but you're not necessarily comfortable with the term either empowering women or female empowerment because it suggests that the woman needs lifting up yeah you know the the working title for my book was without apology and like even the idea that the apology was in the title was already pissing me off I was like we are not making a without apology apology of any apology.

57:28Get it out. Yes. You know what it is? Because I think that, you know, female empowerment, women empowerment, it's become performative without the substance that really makes it work. So I'll give you an example. I remember sitting on a panel. The title of the panel was Women, Power and Money. Within the panel, somebody said I was inelegant for speaking about money. I was like sorry I had to like check the title I was like women power money all right love so there was that and then there was this other part where I had asked somebody ahead of IPO in their company what lawyer they had used to redo their deal and she didn't want to tell me and I was like why is it like a secret I'll let you know and I was like well how much did you pay and I was like what are we doing here I need the specificity of that information A so I don't overpay B so I get a good deal you should want me to get a good deal and by the way I'm going to pass that information to five other people like what are we talking about so I don't enjoy the performative notion of women supporting women I want the real stuff I want you to give me the information share the information tell me how it is show me the mistakes be a proper person be helpful be useful and I feel like when we you know listen I love a dinner as much as the next girl but when I do my dinners seat at the table it is purposeful I'm sitting you next to the person that you need to sit with yeah who's got the information that you need what a joy I'm sitting you next to a girl that's coming up in media and entertainment who needs to understand all the things that you did and what not to do so I think that what we just need is like an openness to discuss the stuff that matters and is going to help us to move forward.

59:16Yeah, rather than some like pointless Instagram post that just doesn't... Who wants to go? Who wants to do that? Mean a thing. I mean, yeah. Gross. That's such a good word, by the way. They don't say that in America. Bollocks. Oh, bollocks. Oh, bollocks. I've got to use it. I overuse it. First of all, no one says that. Take that and back to the States with you. I am taking it back. Take that and crump it back with you. Also, you state that remote working is not working for women. Why? and listen you know I've I've really gone around with this one I'm gonna double down on it I got in a lot of um sort of you know I think perceived backlash when I spoke about work-life balance and so let me just double click on it for you also who gives a fuck about backlash like I mean I didn't if I'm honest I didn't know it was happening I only understood it was a thing when PR were like you need to you know really think about the way that you're saying that and actually subsequently in interviews when people are like, when you went viral.

1:00:14Here's the thing that I really believe. If you ask me this kind of notion of, you know, like work from home culture, it is career suicide for women. And let me tell you why. I employ enough women to know what actually happens when they work from home. When they work from home, the husband or the partner doesn't think that childcare is needed, right? So this woman who is now at home in her office, trying to get her work done, sit in her living room table, kitchen table in her bedroom, wherever she is, also has the lion's share of the kids to then deal with. I'm like, what is that all about? She's working from home.

1:00:53She's not like doing, she's working. She's not doing the school run, making the pat lunch, picking up the kid at whatever time. Like you're supposed to be working from home. Also, what you have to understand is that proximity and visibility is key for career progression. And when you are out of sight, you're out of mind. And what we're seeing, there's a really amazing statistic that came across my desk the other day. 500 ,000 women have dropped out of the workforce since January in America. 500 ,000 citing difficulties that stem from COVID, that they've just, you know, work from home culture has really kind of like shifted the way that we all see work.

1:01:29So I really honestly look at it and I'm like it really is career suicide not to mention what's happening in society marriage rates are down uh birth rates are down when you think about you know England has a loneliness epidemic of course you don't need people in your home in your living room you have to go out and be in the world and be in people's faces and so I'm not sitting here saying I don't understand what benefits come with some flexibility in your work life of course I do I'm a mum of four You have a doctor's appointment. You have things that you need to do at the school. They're like none of us really work in those jobs anymore where you can't go and dip in and dip out and have an element of flexibility.

1:02:10But if you think that being at home is actually going to give you the same type of career. And if you think that having like big ideas and big dreams and big ambition for yourself can be maximized working from home. I'm telling you, it cannot. You're on a fool's errand. And anyone who tells you any different is just a liar. And so, you know, it's like, go, go at me. Get me online. It's like, I'm telling the truth. And that's just that. And also, you're telling the truth from a place of not only understanding it as a mum, but you grew up with a single mum. Yes. And with four kids in the house. Like, that's...

1:02:45Yes. And I understand it. You employ hundreds and hundreds of women. So I see it. I see it firsthand. And I've questioned people in my office. I'm like, why are you promoting another guy? Well, because these three people aren't in the office. Ah, why is that? Well, actually, because they've taken advantage of what is given them to the office, a three or a four day work week. It might be OK at your place of work. It doesn't mean it's going to be OK for your future. Yeah, exactly. And like you say, it's not for everybody having that level of ambition. If it isn't and working from home suits you because your ambition is capped, then that's also OK.

1:03:21It's not cool. Exactly. That's what I think. It's always the nuances missed of people going, but I don't want that. Well, then that's fine. That's fine. That's absolutely fine. Then don't you do that. Yeah, this is a chat about ambition and we shouldn't be scared to say it. And I'm so grateful for your level of confidence and vehemence talking about it. I've sort of, I'm done with us pussyfooting around subjects so we don't upset certain people who don't want that. And it isn't helpful. No. At the end of the day, it's like, what are we trying to do here? Because so many women have, like, we have so much to give and we're frustrated by the lack of progress.

1:03:54and so it's like if I know something that's going to help why wouldn't I say it it's like this is going to help you and I let me tell you a lot of people say to me you know what Emma I didn't know that that wasn't a good question to ask in an interview I didn't know that taking advantage of something that was a given in my workplace wouldn't help me progress I thought because it was there I should was like that's okay I'm just going to let you know yeah we're all learning and working it out as we go. And when you know better, you do better. I love that. I love that. I would love to know if there are any songs that, I mean, maybe we could relate it to what we're talking about, that just make you feel fucking powerful and ready to take over the world.

1:04:34I love a good song. Yeah, me too. Bitch Better Have My Money. Don't you think that one? Rihanna, I love that one. That can go on our happy place playlist. I always think that one. Literally, like, such a good song. I mean, anything Rihanna does is kind of good no she just makes me so happy another woman who's just like doing her thing she's awesome zero fucks so great literally my favorite and where is your happy place um you know i am very aware fern that right now i'm in like the single best moment of my life you know it's like i have an awareness you know it's like i'm not gonna get better looking i'm not you know it's Like my kids are at that age where it's like they still really want their mom.

1:05:20Like no one's yet embarrassed of me. But I don't have like babies in diapers anymore. You know, it's like I'm in this beautiful sweet spot of like 12 and 9 and 4 and 4. And my life is so lovely. I have the most adorable husband that I still love after 17 years of marriage. And I'm very like in the moment. Like I wake up every day and I'm like, oh, this is like this is it. Like you're in it now. So like be really grateful, like just take, take in every moment. And luckily I am someone who stops to smell the roses. Like it's like, I will celebrate like anything, like a good hair day, like a, you know, a new top, like I bought a new top yesterday on my way from the airport.

1:06:04Do you know what I mean? Like to me, it's like, I try to make sure I'm noticing everything and that I think is really helpful in your life. And again, I was like that as a kid, you know, I used to buy flowers from the gas station, from the petrol garage. And I would spend that$4.99 on flowers and I would like take each flower out and put each flower in a different thing in a different space. Because it's like I'm just that person who's going to wring the best out of it. Do you know what I mean? Like whatever it is. And so I feel like that, like expandability of like making whatever it is like big and important and meaningful is something that I'm always trying to do.

1:06:45Sorry, that was a long answer to your question. No, it's not one you can answer quickly. But I love that it's now because I think we are constantly forced to think that the best bit is to come or that it's in the future. And that's not to say you're not going to have amazing times. But it's not a given. But I think we're so trained to think something's off, something's wrong. It could be better or I could be improved and this whole self-improvement thing that that will be better in the future. Well, maybe it's now. Maybe the happiness. Well, it is. It's not maybe. It's now. It's now or never. It's really true.

1:07:15And maybe you have more responsibility for it than you thought. Maybe you have more ownership than you thought. And I think the minute, you know, I have this wonderful friend, Diane von Furstenberg. Oh, legend. I mean, she's such a legend. Such a legend. And, you know, she says the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself. And, you know, I think about that because like so many of us, I have this constant conversation going on. And you can tell yourself a lot of shit that will keep you small and it will keep you down. Or you can talk yourself up every day.

1:07:49And that's what Start With Yourself is all about. It's like I am a default eight on the happiness scale. It's just like that's how I wake up most mornings. but then I can choose right the kid comes into me like you know with a bad dream or wet the bed or school problem and then I read an email and then like you know burn some toast like it can go down yeah right and I get in the office and it's just problems after problem after problem that's a choice it's a choice how I react it's a choice how I bring myself into the room and so I think that when you start with yourself, you have to choose, like, where are you on your list?

1:08:25Yes. Like, how are you going to behave and how are you going to work and what do you want to be? And so I've just chosen to put myself, like, super high, right on the top of my list and then be, like, purposeful about it. Yeah. And that works in business and it works in your life and it works in all areas. And again, women are told to put ourselves at the bottom of the list every time. Put everybody else before you And then you end up resentful and miserable. Well, that's the thing. And ill and looking like shit. It's like, I'm not going to do that. No. Like, I just refuse. Yeah. And also, we can't wait for somebody else to make us feel great.

1:09:02We can't wait for that person who says, you're amazing or you look amazing or I love you so much, which then supposedly give us permission to like ourselves. We've got to do it for ourselves. But, you know, it's not me who says it, but it's like, you know, you teach people how to treat you. And when you hold yourself in really high regard, oh my God, everyone starts doing it. You know what I mean? People are really nice to me because I am super nice to me. Yes. And it's like, I know how I want to be treated. And it kind of comes out. It literally leaks out of you. It's really hard to treat someone bad who treats themselves like a queen.

1:09:37Yeah, I love that. You know, you're like, you try it. I needed to hear that today. True. I treat myself like a fucking queen for the rest of my life God Emma I've never needed a chat more in my existence you are just incredible I love everything you're doing and it's a joy to watch from afar and stalk you on Instagram because I'm just massively buzzed by all of it and for all women out there to be living in the way that you've just described I think it's the future and I just think you're amazing so thank you for being on the podcast. You're a darling I've loved every minute of it. Thank you so much.

1:10:14Oh, I loved that. I want to be an Emma Greed groupie if there is such a thing. Just like whenever I follow her on Instagram and she's wearing a great outfit, looking gorgeous and on a private jet somewhere, I think I'll just, I'll like carry your bags and just come and hang out with you. She's so brilliant. And her energy, as I'm sure you felt listening to that, is so contagious. She's so energised by what she's saying, what she's doing. I want some of that. Her book, Start With Yourself, is out right now. Talking of books, are you part of the Happy Place Book Club? You can join any time. We're on Instagram.

1:10:50Just head to at happyplacebookclub. In May, we're going to be reading Yesteryear. Oh, oh, this book. Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke. Right, I shit you not. this is the best fiction I have read in years and years and years and years potentially a decade I couldn't put it down I would read until my eyes were falling asleep in bed because it was like way past my bedtime it's so clever it covers subjects like the manosphere and the trad wife and oh god so much more but in in a really clever way not in an overt way we're like oh I'm reading a book about the manosphere. It's just sublime. If you were ever going to buy a book from the Happy Place Book Club, this is the one.

1:11:42Just join the book club, please, and get this book. Oh my God, it's amazing. I'm actually gutted that. I've already read it. I wish I could read it again. Right, until next time we chat, a huge thanks again to Emma, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. I love you.

1:12:32We'll see you next time. the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale, digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.