You can’t be happy 24/7: Riley Keough on surrendering to grief and anger

0:01Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. The show that knows deep sadness can sit alongside great joy. Today, I'm chatting to Riley Keough. Mental illness, the broad term, bugs me when people are talking about depression or anxiety or these feelings that are valid. I think that the way we're so hard on ourselves for having a moment of depression, having a few weeks of being anxious, having a panic attack. Like, how could we not when we live in this wild place and we're having this crazy experience? So I try and give myself grace for my feelings because by no means am I this like perfectly level headed individual.

0:40Like I'm a human and I feel a lot. How are you, my lovely people? I hope you're all well and happy. I am in a very cliched way in the Christmas scramble. I am currently sat in what looks like I was about to say Santa's workshop. It doesn't. It looks like someone has been shopping and just tipped everything out of bags onto the floor. And I don't like it. I don't like it. I want someone to come and help me sort it all out. Normally, I'm very list heavy, as you probably all well know. This year, I've been really all over the gaff and I haven't got post-it notes out. I haven't correlated the gift to the list.

1:18It's chaos and it's stressing me out. and I'm coping by having a little glass of wine every night, which is probably not the best way to cope. But hey, we're honest here on this podcast and we don't beat around the bush. Look, I've got to sort my shit out. That's what I've got to do. I'm sure you're all feeling pretty much the same. So why don't we all take a break together? Let's press pause on the Christmas madness and listen to a podcast. Oh, help. So, oh, today is so, so special. I'm imagining you were as obsessed as I was about Daisy Jones and The Six. The book changed my life. I read it twice.

1:54I've never in my life read a book twice. I was so besotted with this book. And then they made a TV series. Riley, of course, played the lead in the series. She played Daisy. And her performance was, it was just beautiful. It was so perfect. It's no surprise she's an Emmy and Golden Globe nominated actor, quite frankly. If you didn't know, but I'm sure you did, Riley's mum is Lisa Marie Presley. She was Elvis Presley's only child. Now Riley has completed her mum's memoir after she died last year. It's called From Here to the Great Unknown. Oh, it's breathtaking. It's really sad and it's really beautiful and gorgeous and raw.

2:38She's also the sole trustee of Graceland. We talked about so much in this chat. It felt like a really lovely, gentle phone call, quite frankly. It was on Zoom because Riley obviously lives in the States and she wasn't doing any other UK press. So I was like, I'm doing it on Zoom. I don't care. I can't get to the States. She can't get here. Let's just chat on Zoom. And there's something I don't like about Zoom, which is that you don't have that proper, proper eye contact or, you know, you're not in the same space as someone, But there's also something really beautiful about it. And it is that really gentle, quiet tenderness that you get with a phone call.

3:18And that's what this feels like, I think. And I reckon you're going to feel the same. Like we were just having a chat. We talked about family history and lineage and different problems, perhaps like addiction filtering through the family, which felt really important. And we talked a hell of a lot about grief because Riley not only lost her mum last year, but a little bit before that lost her brother to suicide. And she's just had a lot of grief to deal with. And she's very honest about how she's dealing with it and navigating it, quite frankly.

4:02proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hormone Harmony is a game changer for women who feel off physically and mentally. Created by an award-winning german nutrition scientist it blends 12 evidence-based adaptogens into one capsule no fillers no junk just science-backed support for clarity comfort energy and confidence with 50 000 plus glowing reviews it's helped millions feel like themselves again try it now with 15 off your first order using code harmony 15 at happy mammoth.com at walgreens we know flu season can feel a little chaotic.

4:54So we're going to give you our flu info in a meditation, keeping you calm, just like a certified Walgreens pharmacist will do if you're a little, needle nervous. So walk in or schedule an appointment and Walgreens will handle the rest. That's the human kind of help. Walgreens. Vaccine subject to availability. State, age, and health-related restrictions may apply. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients.

5:35FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Riley and I chatted remotely just a few days ago, so this is really fresh. Let's do it. Here's the show.

6:21Riley I'm so happy to kind of meet you over our laptops I'm so happy to kind of meet you too Well, I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for so long. I just adored your performance in Daisy Jones. I thought you were mesmerizing. And you just, I mean, I was such a fan of the book. We've had Taylor on the podcast and I'm just in awe of her writing. I think she's incredible. But you guys brought so much magic to the screen. Did it feel like that on set when you were filming it, that you were doing something special? It was really fun. So I don't know what that means, but it was just like, especially the rehearsal time we had together.

7:02It was like, it felt like we weren't at work and it felt kind of like we'd show up every day and, you know, go to rehearsal. And I guess, yeah, it just had this feeling of like just going to hang out with friends. And I would constantly find myself like feeling like I wasn't doing enough work because it felt so fun, you know. So, yeah, it was really special. And a lot of the people who I got to work with, I had a really great time with. And I think that we got really lucky with our cast and that like all of us were very like selfless and giving actors to one another. And I think that that's pretty uncommon with so many people.

7:48You know, there's bound to be one person who's a little bit, I don't know, like has a different process. But I would say for the most part, like we were all just nice, nice people, you know, and I think that that goes a long way. Oh, my God, it certainly does, especially when you're doing something new and something that, you know, everyone's going to watch. You know, you want it to be enjoyable. Yeah, and I think in that way, like, none of us had ever done anything like this. So we were all kind of having the same experience. Like, I had never sang. Sam had never sang. A lot of the guys on the show, like, had played music, but not, like, in years.

8:27So it felt like this, like, there was room to mess up and not, and no pressure in a way, you know. And that part was really fun. Oh, it's just so good. I think over Christmas I'm just going to watch it all again. You should. I sort of miss it. Watch it again. It's just so joyful. I loved it. And obviously you've been with Taylor recently because she's been interviewing you on your book tour dates, right? She did the LA live talk, which was so much fun. She texted me before and she was like, I'm just going to try and keep it, you know, light if possible because a lot of the stuff in the book is heavier.

9:06And I really appreciated that because it gets really draining talking about your personal trauma all day. So I just thought that was like really thoughtful of her. And it was really fun. Like we were able to have a really fun conversation. And actually Sam was there from Daisy Jones. And randomly he texted me and was like, can I come? So he was just sitting. Oh, that's so nice. So he was just sitting right in the front row. And I felt like we were back doing Daisy Jones press. It was really funny. That's so nice. And it's so beautiful. And it's, you know, testament to that experience you guys had on set that you're all friends and you want to hang out and support each other.

9:49It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. This book, which we've just touched on, I just found to be, it just felt like a privilege to read it. And I think it's for all the reasons that you've just mentioned. You know, it is incredibly personal and raw and at times unbelievably honest, which is, you know, they're all the ingredients to make a good book, I suppose. But I just raced through it. I thought it was so beautifully done. And this, of course, was a book that your mum had reached out to you before she died and said, I need help with my story. I can't quite collate the stories and get them together to form this book.

10:28How was that for you at that point? Because it's quite a rare thing that a mum and daughter or father and son or whatever get to sit down and really look over someone's life like that. You know, I haven't done that with my mum. And I have regret about not doing that with, say, my grandparents, because, you know, there's all these brilliant stories that haven't been unearthed and you don't get to learn who your parents are necessarily outside of the role that they hold as a mum or a dad. So what was that like for you? Well, first of all, it's something I keep telling people to ask their parents to like record your parents telling their story because it's there's so much you don't know.

11:12And I mean, in my case, there wasn't so much I didn't know, but but it's just it's a really special thing to have when someone when they pass away in terms of your family's history. And I just felt really blessed to have that, to have 16 tapes of her going through her entire life from birth until present day. And I mean, the timing of it was really strange. You know, she asked me to help her finish the book in December and she died in January. So it was really bizarre timing. And it was, yeah, it was very odd. Like we had a phone call with her and her manager and we were basically talking about like what she wanted from the book and what she she felt like she where she was getting stuck.

12:02And and basically she felt that I think she just like didn't like talking about herself, honestly, and just felt like a bit over it and kind of like I don't want to like I don't see the part. she lost sort of the reason why she started you know writing it and talking about herself and she was she was very like shy and had low self-esteem and so I think that she wanted somebody else to kind of well what she said was you know you know me better than I know myself like can't you help me you know can't you write it and I was like of course I'll help you not thinking that like she would die a few weeks later you know so that was of course on my mind when she passed away and And it was a really intense process because it was shortly after she died, a couple months, I got these tapes from the book because I basically just was being sent everything when she died of hers from people like that they had of hers, her records, her songs, her, you know, everyone was kind of sending me everything going, you know, you should have this.

13:10And in that process, I, you know, the unfinished book was a part of the things she kind of hadn't finished that I was, you know, I don't know, thinking with, I guess. And I got sent the tapes and they were just, it was very hard to listen to them to start. But once I started, it was really therapeutic and like nice because it feels it felt like she's she was in the room or I was on the phone with her after, you know, listening for 35 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour. So it was a really unique experience because I think often when people lose their parents or loved ones, you have like some videos, these short little videos to watch or voicemails or, you know, and especially now because we don't like in the 90s, you'd video like the whole Christmas morning on your camcorder.

14:08you know but now we just video these like little clips so I found that with my brother because my brother passed away too where I just had these little clips of him and I would just hold on like I would just watch them over and over again because they're so tiny you know and with her I just had so much of her talking and so it was really special and I I knew that I was really lucky to have to have that. And then I basically just started laying her story out. And to me, it felt like the only way to fill in the gaps that were missing was me doing it. And I wasn't going to pretend that I was her.

14:46So I thought, you know, I just have to do it in my own voice. And it wasn't necessarily something I wanted to do. Like, I don't like attention on myself. And I don't like kind of, you know, the way she raised me, I'll say, was to not do something like this, you know, to not kind of go out in the press. And like she was very private. So I think her desire to write the book was after experiencing a lot of suffering and wanting to, um, an addiction and loss and really wanting to like help people, you know, and, and feeling like, well, if I've what's the point of experiencing all this if I can't share my story and connect with people, you know, and though she's in a unique circumstance where she's Elvis's daughter, it's a very human story and the themes are very human and it's about, you know, loneliness and love and loss and grief and addiction and having children and, you know, very relatable things.

15:49um so yeah so so it was it back to me writing the book it was hard it was I was resistant to doing it because just the idea of me like writing an autobiography just felt so out of character for me honestly um so it was a bit uncomfortable but it was kind of the only way to do it was to insert myself into the story yeah I found your parts utterly fascinating because of course you've got an entirely different perspective and you're seeing your mum go through certain circumstances and the impact of that for everybody I thought it was there were beautiful additions to the story and really gave a really full-bodied sense of of who she was and you know you've said this a moment ago and you talk about it in the book you say that you've you kind of spent your whole life trying to work out why she had this profound sense of low self-esteem and unworthiness.

16:51Do you think from perhaps listening to the tapes, perhaps the process of actually getting it on paper that you're anywhere closer to working out why? I think there's a few more clues that I have. You know, I think that from the minute she was born, people had agendas with her in their friendships and relationships, which would kind of make someone go, do they want to hang out with me? Like, do I have value or is it they want to go to Elvis's house? You know, and I can tell you from my own life experience that that's something I've experienced too. You know, like I definitely as a child would have a lot of experiences where our kids would kind of say, can we go to your house?

17:39Like, is your mom there? Can, you know, is Michael Jackson there? Like that, that was a lot of my childhood. So I can understand the feeling of like, am I, is my friendship of any, any worth to you? Am I of any worth or am I just this whatever kind of thing? So I think that had to do with it. And then along with the fact that she kind of was born into crazy amounts of fame and on the cover of newspapers since literally the day she was born. And the headlines were pretty, you know, cruel a lot of her life, especially in her teen years and later in her life, you know, in the 90s to like 80s and 90s.

18:21It was pretty brutal the way that magazines would talk about women. And like I remember as a child going to the grocery store and seeing these awful headlines like Lisa Marie, you know, photos of her saying she was fat and saying, you know, Lisa Marie is headed towards the grave, like these big headlines, like Lisa Marie is going to end up like her dad, overweight and losing her mind, like just on drugs, like when she wasn't on drugs at all, you know, like just really awful things to look at yourself to see every day. And when I say every day, I mean every day, like that was, that was the 90s and the early 2000s.

18:58like it was every single day in the in the stores it was right there and so I think that that would make you definitely insecure and I think that she just didn't also have a lot of really close relationships in her life she didn't have a lot of friend truly like deep friendships and relationships to you know obviously it's ideal that we don't need that to feel our own self-worth But I think that for her, like, I don't think she I think there was almost like none of it, you know. So I think that she didn't really have anyone saying like, you're amazing until she was older. And, you know, with my dad and some relationships she had.

19:38But I don't think she had this. Yeah. So I don't know the one I don't think there's one reason. I think it was just a lot of a lot of things that made her, you know, insecure. Yeah. I mean, it's an extraordinary life from day one. is there's not much normalcy there at all. And she's just having to cope and learn each day how to survive in that sort of environment. And I guess the thing that I really learned from this book or became completely cognizant of is the fact that she was so close to her dad. And I think, you know, you get an inkling of that just from knowing the story and the history of Elvis and the family dynamics.

20:21but it seemed like they had this inextricable bond and that really, and I don't know what your thoughts are on this, that she never actually really got over his death. It was sort of with her every day. Definitely. His death, you know, when I, now, when I look back, the loss of him kind of dictated her whole life and not the Elvis part, like the loss of that bond with her father. And I remember like I felt like I was born like I felt like since I I always knew she was in grief. You know, I could feel that from a very young age that there was sadness there. And it was her in her eyes, the most like meaningful relationship other than her children that she had.

21:16and kind of this person who was there to guide her through this crazy life of hers, she felt who left and she felt very alone. So yes, I think they had an incredibly deep and meaningful bond. And I think that she was always looking for closeness to him throughout her life. And I don't think she really processed it either. You know, I think that she didn't talk about it as much as she probably should have. And I think that a reason for that was because she was always asked about it. And I think that always being asked about it in the press and people wanting to know kind of her response to that was a sort of like she would feel she I think she would feel irritated when people would would ask her about it.

22:08because there was so much of it but then she also didn't because of that she didn't really feel you know safe or comfortable talking about it so I think it was like this thing she wanted to keep private to herself but she kept it so private that she wasn't able to really process it maybe. I guess when someone of that stature dies it's almost like there's this public grief which is a whole other very unusual flavor of grief where it's not just about the people that are directly impacted it's it's the fans it's the people who have followed that individual for a long time and their outpouring of grief can be very loud actually and and and I can't imagine how you would deal with that you know sort of rallying alongside your own experience of grief and and that personal loss of it's not Elvis it's my dad it's my guiding light it's that person that's gone and I'm imagining that was just utterly confusing and you know and she was a child she was a tiny kid it's it's so much to deal with in the book you you you both talk quite frequently about Graceland and that being a place where your mum really did get some comfort of being in the surroundings that were sort of left as they had been after Elvis died and her crawling into his bed and feeling that sort of sense of of closeness to him obviously you didn't get to meet your maternal grandfather but he's very much a part of your story and your blood and and your lineage what was that like for you as a kid going to Graceland and sort of I guess maybe being even more acutely aware of that grief but also having that sense of closeness to to who he was we loved going to Graceland because my mom's version of Graceland that she still liked to create for us was this place where she felt wild and free and connected to, she actually felt very connected to her father there.

24:09And it wasn't a place of sadness at all for her. She would always visit his grave, but mostly it was a place where she felt close to her dad. And like, you know, like you would feel walking into your childhood home. My childhood home doesn't exist anymore, but I dream about it all the time. And when I dream about it, there's this great sense of like comfort in that place. You know, I lived there from five years old or four or five years old to 21. And, and I think that that's what she felt there, like that deep security of, of the childhood home. And like that her connection to him was really strong there.

24:48And then she would also like go there and get on the golf carts. And, you know, this is until she died, literally like run wild and free on the lawn and connect to that part of herself, the younger part of herself. And I think she really felt like whole there. So we had a really good time there because it was always fun. Like our experience was going to Graceland and, you know, we wouldn't really go in the house when the tours were going on, but we would go after and have dinner and see our family there. And we could feel her joy there and how much fun she would have. And when we were younger, it was like riding around on the golf carts and eating banana pudding.

25:37And then as we got older, it was like having a drink in the living room and dancing. And, you know, so it was always a place of joy, you know, for all of us until my brother passed away. And then he was buried there. And then I think all of our relationships changed with the property because it just became a place of grief, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's a hard, very jarring turn to have to take from it being somewhere that, you know, is joy filled and there's wild abandon to God, this is now actually a tangible place of grief. That's how do you navigate that? That's full on. yeah to be honest um when my brother was buried there it was really hard for me to go there my mom would go all the time because she felt a sense of closeness when she would sit in the meditation garden probably because she was used to it with her dad her whole life you know and I think I didn't realize until my brother was buried there and she was buried there like how polarizing that experience would have been every time she went like because I'd never really experienced grief.

26:49I really felt like I understood her experience of Graceland more, having my loved ones buried there. But for me, it was hard to go. For her, she felt like sitting there in the meditation garden with my brother's body or grave and her dad's grave and her grandparents' graves. Like I, she, she found that comforting, whereas it, I didn't really totally have that experience, but you know what? Like once I'm there, I feel happy to be there. It's just like getting up and going that I always feel, you know, apprehensive about, but I also want the relationship to Graceland and the home because it's so special to keep the like sort of life and wildness that it had for me like for my kids and for my sisters so I do try and bring that when I am there like I like to go with friends with family so it feels like alive and we spend time in the house so I'm I'm working on sort of recreating that relationship for for my kids and and uh yeah well it's still you know it's it's fresh it's not like it happened 20 years ago you know you're you're in the you're in the thick of it and it's it's you know it's a long long slow process isn't it to to change those narratives and for time to somewhat be a healer although of course it's not a linear experience necessarily but I mean you you talk in the book about you know your brother died extremely young he took his own life your your mum and brother had an incredibly intense bond and then after that loss you did start to have a bit of fear that your mum might not stick around is that something that you had to really land on and or was that a thought that you would try and push away because it just felt just too ghastly to imagine that that would perhaps be the end of her?

28:52I think a lot of my life has been like a lesson in letting things be what they are and not being able to change what is. So by the time that he passed and she was living, I would say that I was more, you know, I always have done what I can do. And there's a point where you have to just kind of surrender to what is. And I just knew from being close with my mom that the idea of losing a child was a concept that she deeply feared. She talked about it often throughout my life. She couldn't watch movies with parents losing children. She had friends who lost children and she would say, I wouldn't make it.

29:43You know, I will never make it through something like that if something like that happened to me. So I just kind of knew because of what she'd said and what I'd seen, you know, what I'd seen and their closeness and the fact that he was kind of like her baby. and I just didn't see a way I definitely didn't see a way for her to live and be like to keep going and and for her to be happy you know what she started to do was just accept that she was living in grief and and so I kind of saw a way forward for her in that way, but she definitely was not like, in many ways, she would say like, you know, my life is over when I lost my son.

30:33That's, that's it for me. Like I'm here for my children, but I'm not, I don't want to be here, you know, which is fair enough. You know, losing a child is the worst thing that can happen to you. So I just, I don't know, but I was also open to her totally turning things around. And, you know, I tried not to have expectations, to be honest. But I definitely, the moment he died, I kind of thought, there's no way she's going to survive this. That was my instinct. And I think everyone around's instinct.

31:25No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With Wix, you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI. Get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing or work like a 10 person team, even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done.

32:04You just need Wix. Try it now for free at Wix.com. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach?

32:44Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast. Do you know what I found so extraordinary reading the book was how, you know, and I've obviously never met you, But I know enough about you from researching you and from reading your own thoughts in this book that you seem like an incredibly sturdy and responsible person who at times has had to hold together a lot of pieces of the family or the dynamic or the emotions or the grief or whatever.

33:34and I guess piecing that together with looking at when you talk about your memories of being at Graceland of reading Elvis's books on the shelves that were usually spiritual books and you could tell very much that he's searching for something and that your mother had that desire to search for some sort of comfort or something else to to help her through and I wonder how you feel sort of looking back on that lineage and you know we can all do it I've got a series on my mother's side of pretty poor mental health and you can kind of look back and see how this filters through the family but there can be of course family members in the lineage that break the chain that do things differently for whatever reason and I wonder if if you feel like that if you have broken the chain and if that's been something that you've had to give thought to or you're not an addict you're not you're not in that headspace where that's gonna be a path for you I think that like it's giving me a lot of credit saying I broke the chain because I was never an addict you know and I think that addiction whether it's straightforward or not has had a huge part in both the loss of my brother and my mom and with my mom it was just it was different but I think that, you know, ultimately that experience kind of led her to this place of kind of hopelessness, you know?

35:01And so I think that the place she was in, the sort of hopelessness she lived in was due to the years of addiction. And I think that had she not been in that situation, I think a lot of things would have been different for her and for my brother. So I do blame addiction for a lot of the sort of the trauma and the loss. And I wasn't like I never been an addict. So I think that it's giving me too much credit saying I've broken a chain when I never had that issue to deal with. You know, I hope my children don't have addiction issues, but I don't know how it works. You know, I don't I don't know. Like there's so many theories about why people have addiction issues or mental health issues.

35:52And I think that for me, like something that, like I think that experiencing depression, experiencing pain, experiencing suffering is part of being in this world, you know? So I always feel hesitant to be like, you know, of course there's mental health issues, but sometimes the phrasing of it bothers me because I'm like, of course, if you've got somebody in pain and suffering, they're going to suffer, you know? And the phrasing of it sometimes sounds like something's wrong with them fundamentally. And I hate that. I think that people experience trauma and generational trauma and pain and it's hard to live in this world.

36:33It's a really complicated world. And people are so sensitive. And so I think that it's much more complicated than we understand. And so it's hard for me to really speak to, you know, generational trauma. With that said, there's definitely generational trauma in my family. And, you know, my mother's father came from addiction and poverty. And I think those things are in your body for sure. I just think that, you know, and of course there's a lot of support now for those things that there weren't back then. So, yeah, I don't know. I think that taking on the sort of responsibility of breaking the chain of my whole lineage feels intense.

37:21But I hope and pray that there's no more addiction, but there might be. You know, I think that what I've learned in my life is to not really like have expectation, you know, and to kind of just ride the waves, you know. That's all we can do, isn't it? That's literally all we can do. I mean, there'll be plenty of people listening to this now who are either in the depths of grief, who have lost someone recently, who have had a succession of loss this year, wondering how the hell you navigate life. because it's obviously it's not something you get over it's something you you learn to live alongside how how would you say you've coped or how do you or maybe maybe there's been times when you haven't but how are you navigating it because I think when you're in it it can feel completely lonely and like nobody really understands and the world keeps spinning and people are just going about their daily business but you're in this thing that is so all-consuming how how have you navigated it especially with your mum and brother you know passing so so close to each other um well I think that grief is something that changes all the time and you think you've got like a relationship with it and then it changes you know I think that there's early grief which is just agony um and then a year in you start to feel like you know I'm making up this timeline or it's relative to me, but you start to feel like, okay, like I can, I see that I can sort of live my life and also hold this, this sadness.

39:04And then you have moments of joy and moments where things feel kind of normal. And then you find yourself feeling like it just happened yesterday, you know? So it's, it's always changing. And I think it's like being okay with the change, which is really uncomfortable in life in general. And allowing it to, I think for me, I know nothing ever stays the same and I find comfort in that. I think that can sound uncontrollable for some people, but I think that the idea that emotions change, everything changes is comforting to me. That if this is a hard moment, it will pass and there will be great moments.

39:48great moments will also pass and then there'll be hard moments so I think I just again try and just ride the wave but one thing I definitely do is I feel it you know I don't run away from it I don't like sit in like agony and like if there if there's a way to feel relief I feel relief but I definitely won't like if I have a moment where I feel emotional I'll let myself cry or feel my feelings I think feeling your feelings is probably the right thing to do I think um without a doubt oh my god I think in every in every single circumstance and we're not you know we're not used to doing it and we're certainly not taught to do that if anything you know I think a common way to get brought up by any parent is that when a kid's crying or a toddler that the parent's going oh no don't like shush don't don't do the crying bit and we're sort of conditioned that we should and then obviously just through social conditioning that you're not either laughing hysterically or weeping in the supermarket or on the bus or whatever that you have to keep it all in and actually it's so damaging I was that's I guess that's what I was getting at when I was saying that mental illness sometimes the broad term bugs me when people are talking about depression or anxiety or these feelings that are valid you know yeah like we're not meant to just be happy 24-7.

41:12That's not the world we live in. So I think that that's kind of what I'm getting at is that there's so much conditioning to not cry, to not feel angry, to not feel negative emotions at all. And I think that pushing through that in grief has probably been the most beneficial to me. And I think that's just because I when I do like try and push through or bottle it up, it just it results in like crazy anxiety or something else like it'll find another way to manifest, you know. So I think that I think it's like not judging your emotions, your human emotions. Of course, if they're so severe, then you need to get help.

41:55um but but i think that like the way we're so hard on ourselves for having a moment of depression having a few weeks of being anxious having a panic attack like how could we not when we live in this wild place and we're having this crazy experience so i try and give myself grace for my feelings because by no means am i this like perfectly level-headed individual like i'm a human and i feel a lot you know yeah do you know what I think there's such a link I've I've really experienced this one this year specifically the link between suppressing anger and anxiety and I had no clue about this before and I saw this brilliant I've been seeing this brilliant therapist this year and and I was having all sorts of crazy anxiety and panic attacks for years and years and years and she was like I think if you really really got in touch with what you're angry about and you really felt it then you would not have this anxiety and I was like what a load of shit but I'm sure and then this year have worked really specifically on that I haven't had a panic attack in probably nearly a year like not one because I'm just feeling that and I think especially for women like feeling anger is such a no-no for some reason and you're British like you're totally i'm british i'm fucked um no i think that that's i actually saw like gabor mate say something about that like how yeah yeah how women um and it makes total sense to me you know i think that that there's a lot of anger and and and and rage even with your parents with your school teacher with whoever your partners and and females are not really conditioned to feel those things um even in my household like if I was to yell at my mom as a kid and this is also just a generational thing she was an amazing mother she would have been like don't you dare talk to me like that you know whereas now it's like let them be angry let them feel you know um but that was that was parenting and and and I think that that so definitely there's a lot of I think repressed I've also felt that like repressed anger leading to to anxiety for sure or repressed sadness repressed anger repress anything we just gotta let it out i think it's so it's so and giving yourself the time and space and just to let yourself feel a bit shit or whatever it is it's so it's underestimated how how powerful that can be and i think it's really beautiful advice for people that are in it now to not try and rush the process or get to the other side it's like you just you have to be in it whatever it is if it's loss or anger or whatever just to be in it rather than to bypass it because you kind of can't if anything you're probably delaying the whole thing for sure and I think that's really the thing is like you're suppressing of emotions like it's going to come at some point so it's I think a little bit of the only way out is through in a sense yeah yeah without without a doubt the other thing I've found um really beautiful in the book is is your mum and dad's relationship because you know after they broke up and your mum got remarried and had different partners your dad was always about and it was just a really lovely sort of beautiful partnership that they seemed to keep throughout your mum's entire life what was that for you as as a child what was that like or was just a young person growing up knowing that you know they weren't together but they actually had a really incredible partnership going on as a child my perception of my parents for a long time like into my early late teens early 20s was that I had the most amazing wildly colorful eccentric incredible like parents like and I and they were I don't want to say that changed but I think things got a little more like intense in my 20s Um, and so I just felt lucky.

46:03Like I always felt lucky. I remember as a child feeling so lucky that my dad was my dad and my mom was my mom. Like, and my life was my life. Like I really felt grateful. I remember moments of being in the bathroom and going, God, I'm so lucky. Like, what did I do to be this lucky? And I don't know why I felt so lucky. I think I just felt like real love and unconditional love. And I just loved them so much. And I think that that's surprisingly unique in a family. So maybe I just knew that, I guess, as a child. But I felt lucky for their relationship. He was always around. I said in the book, but I didn't even know that the Michael Jackson situation had upset my dad until I could see he came back from this one trip and I heard a phone call.

46:56but they were so they really prioritized uh which it was not like a big thing in the 90s you know like conscious uncoupling or whatever yeah like that they they were doing that like probably before anybody they beat Gwyneth and Chris they beat them so I just felt like I knew I had a unique situation because I also had friends who didn't have that you know dynamic with divorced parents. And when I would tell people like my dad lives with us, often people would kind of go, what? You know, I'd be like, oh yeah, my dad lives in the guest house and my stepdad lives in the house and we're all going on tour together.

47:37Yeah, it's great. And so I, but I was aware of it. You know, I think that something I've felt really lucky for in my life is I'm always aware of the good moments. And like, I never, I never, I've never found myself looking back going, God, I wish I appreciated that more, you know, because I always felt really grateful. How beautiful. I love that so much. And it's also intriguing in the book, you know, your mum's incredibly honest about her relationship with Michael Jackson. And they seemed to really connect on a level that, you know, it's sort of unbelievable how there was maybe a mirror held up to each other.

48:17And they just connected in that way. What do you think it was? What were they giving each other in that moment because it was very quick it was very intense they were completely in love with each other what what was that dynamic about I think that there were a lot of things they related on firstly you know they were both living these like very isolated lives in these sort of ivory towers and it's a really unique experience so I think that when you're living that way it's also hard to really trust people and connect with people when everybody around you is wanting something from you. And so I think there was a comfort in that.

48:57They both kind of were living that experience. They both knew what it was like to leave the house and have this sort of circus that would follow them. It was a very similar lived experience. So I think that there was that. And then there was also just like a human connection. She just fell in love with him. You know, my mom was somebody who could not live her life inauthentically, like in any moment of her life to a point where it would make people extremely uncomfortable. you know if she didn't like something she wouldn't go if she didn't like somebody she would leave if she didn't like her husband she would get divorced like she would you know I think that I understand as an adult that there was like question around like whether or not that it was like a PR thing and you know that's just like there's no you know anyone who knows my mom knows that she'd be completely incapable of that so she just she fell in love with him it was pretty straightforward you know I'm so inspired by everything you've just I want to basically be everything you've just said like I want I want to like not waste time like life is short I don't want to waste time doing shit I don't want to do and hang out people I don't want to hang out with like how do you get there how do you do that I don't know I don't know she just was maybe born that way and it was like so it and I think that quality is so admirable though it would make people uncomfortable a lot um she just never lived a moment in any sort of lie or or micro lie or how are you good she wouldn't say good if she wasn't good you know and so like I think there's something to be learned there in that sort of level of like living authentically for sure and honestly yeah I think we're all so nervous to make people feel uncomfortable or for people to Or people not like us.

50:50We don't like that feeling. And I'm always so sort of magnetized towards people that do not care. They don't care. They're just themselves. I find it's the most tantalizing quality. It is. It is. And I think she, it's funny because she was insecure and she wanted friends and she wanted to fall in love and to be loved. But she also did not care if people didn't like her. and I think that that was really liberating to live that way yeah without a doubt and I think you know everything in the book every story every gap that you filled in just is so demonstrative of how wonderfully complex she was like we all are that you can be both you can be vulnerable and insecure but very very certain as to who you are and how you want to live in certain ways and it's I just loved it.

51:43I loved reading the book so much and I can't even imagine how tough it was at times and like you said at the start of this, even doing these chats is fucking draining and you have to go over stuff that's really painful. So I'm deeply appreciative of your time today and it's just been so lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much, Riley. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful and I hope you have a good evening evening day yeah I'm hurtling towards that it's like lunchtime it's lunchtime have a good lunch thanks Riley I love that you know obviously there's that bit at the start where Riley talks about having her interview with Taylor Jenkins Reid and Taylor having this very light chat because obviously it's a lot to talk about and I was obviously aware that I didn't do that that we did go in quite heavy at times um but I never wanted to push Riley into an area she didn't feel comfortable going into so I really hope for you and Riley that I got the balance right and it felt like a chat that wasn't in any way exploitative or going into areas that she wasn't comfy with you know she seemed pretty naturally loquacious about the areas that she knew would probably be important to hear and I really thank her for that because I'm pretty sure like me you got a lot from that whether it's grief you're going through or suppressing emotions or dealing with different family members, I honestly urge you to read this bloody book.

53:10It's so good. Lisa Marie Presley's memoir, which Riley helped write and finish. It's called From Here to the Great Unknown and it's out right now. Another book you obviously have to read is Daisy Jones and the Six. If you haven't, bloody hell, if you haven't, you're in for the best treat. I'm jealous. I've chatted to author Taylor Jenkins Reid on Happy Place. There'll definitely be a link to that episode in the show notes if you want to listen to that. Taylor is amazing, my hero. Also, are you following Happy Place on Instagram? I bloody love it when you guys have a natter together in the comments.

53:41We are at Happy Place Official. Sometimes we post really profound moments from the podcast that you can learn from. Other times it's silly memes. We do it all. We like to have a laugh at ourselves. Both are important. All right, you lovely lot. Until next time, a massive thank you again to Riley, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. I think you're brilliant. Thank you.

54:28How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With Wix, you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI. Get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing. Or work like a 10-person team, even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done. You just need Wix. Try it out for yourself at Wix.com. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in.

55:05It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Did you know 39 % of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94 % know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports.

55:41Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast. Bubba Wallace here with Tyler Reddick. You know what's more nerve-wracking than waiting for qualifying results? Waiting for the green flag to drop. Instead of pacing, you rev up with Chumba Casino's weekly new releases. It's like a fresh set of tires for your brain. Play for free at ChumbaCasino.com.

56:13Let's Chumba! No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Voidware prohibited by law. CT &C's 21 Plus. Sponsored by Chumba Casino.