Your stories

0:00Before we start, this episode contains conversations you might find difficult to hear. So do check the show notes for more details if you need to. Hello and welcome to an incredibly special episode of Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and today we're celebrating something pretty cool. 100 million downloads of Happy Place. Thank you, you beautiful people. So today I'm chatting to you. So there were lots of patterns where I just wasn't really able to navigate a relationship in a healthy way. And I realised that that was in part, at least, due to these childhood experiences of, you know, how I related to my parents, but also childhood experiences at school and with other people.

0:49Unlike many males who struggle to reach out and to talk about how they're feeling, Jake didn't fit that mould. he couldn't have shouted any louder and I'm so proud and privileged that he shared everything with me and he spoke to me and he trusted me and he talked to me about a substance misuse and so on and he knew that he could trust me. You can't get to the end of the day and go I want to really do that again because I messed it up I didn't do this I didn't do that it wasn't intentional enough so treat every day as your first day your last day because it's your only day and it is non-refundable so give it the best you can.

1:26I'd like to properly start by saying a heartfelt thank you to all of you listeners. Without you we simply couldn't make this podcast happen and I think when I started out making Happy Place I didn't really know what I was doing. I knew I wanted to have very deep conversations and hopefully ones that were helpful but I could never have imagined a day where we would reach 100 million downloads. And although I often say we can't quantify our happiness, we can't put a number on it, I do still totally believe that. But I think this feels like a bit of a moment to celebrate for me and the Happy Place team, and hopefully for you brilliant people too.

2:12It's a real community we've built here, Maybe accidentally at first, but my God, we totally love and appreciate it today. Being in constant conversation with you amazing listeners and getting such valuable feedback has made this podcast exactly what it is. So a massive, massive thank you. So the whole point of this is it's about you. I feel endlessly honoured and impressed by how much you're willing to share of yourselves after hearing certain conversations on this show. So this episode is about your stories. We put a call out on social media and we were completely overwhelmed by the number of messages that we read.

2:55Oh, my God, it was intensely emotional trying to pick just three people to have on this show. we cried, we hugged, we read every single one. But we have managed to pick three somehow, although it was impossible, as I said. So I'm going to chat to Sam, Matt and Mel, who have all been through their own tough stuff, as we all have, and have been open to learning about themselves along the way.

3:50First up is the wonderful Sam Adams. She's a life coach and breathwork teacher and is known for keeping her coaching raw and honest, which is exactly what she was throughout this brilliant chat. We started at the beginning. Sam was sexually abused as a child and being black and gay growing up in a white town, she struggled with self-loathing. I don't think I realised how much it affected my mental health until I got to my early 20s and my world sort of just fell apart really. As a kid you're just going through life aren't you? You don't know any different. It's not until you start to sort of think about your identity when you get in your teens and then you start to grow that you start to question things.

4:31So I don't think it really hit me all until maybe my late teens, early 20s. And I just, I didn't know how to cope with life. I didn't know who I was. I hated the skin I was in. I hated my hair. You know, at that time, you know, I did feel suicidal in my early 20s. I felt very weird. I didn't know. I knew very few black people, only my mother and my brother and sister. And I didn't know anyone that was gay. And back then, I'm quite old. So So there was literally two or three TV channels. So there wasn't really a lot on TV for me to take reference from. There was no internet. So I had no out of view of me.

5:10I didn't see me or any way, shape or form in the world. So I felt very isolated. And yeah, like I just didn't really want to be in the world, to be honest with you. Didn't feel like I fitted in. And what were your coping mechanisms, beneficial or detrimental at the time? because often we look back and we can see, ah, you know, that was a coping mechanism. I can look back and think that about the eating disorders I had in my 20s. There was a period where I just saw them as terrible flaws and things I was getting wrong. But actually, they were coping mechanisms and they weren't beneficial, but I was doing the best that I could at the time.

5:44What coping mechanisms were you using to navigate that period of your life? Yeah, it's a great question, actually. I think I used a lot of alcohol, especially in my, you know, teenage years and early 20s. I was smoking at about the age of 11, which, you know, I couldn't get my hands on anything else at the time. So that was what I was using. I did a little bit of self-harming. I really just hated myself. I, you know, and a lot of self-hatred was just involved. Self-loathing, feeling like I just didn't fit in the world. So I had a lot of a big negative narrative going on in my head. and I didn't know how to express myself and I just used to use alcohol and yeah that was pretty my main vice back then I guess.

6:27I became very depressed, I wanted to take my own life and I did actually call the Samaritans back then and they were immensely helpful and I did go and see my doctor the next day because obviously I think somebody on the line, I can't remember the conversation exactly, was like you know go and reach out get some support. So I went and saw my GP and got me some therapy, which was a big turning point. I had that therapy for two years, though, because obviously I had a lot of stuff around my identity, about sexual abuse as a child, you know, being black, being gay, and all of that abuse. There was a lot.

6:58I didn't necessarily know I had this healing to do. Yeah, and that's been the start of an amazing journey for you. And I don't necessarily like that word, but I think it does describe how... It's hard to find another word that fits the bill because, you know, it is this long term experience of learning and growing, which we're all desperately trying to do. But you not being floored by these challenges that you face, as you said, you know, it was extremely severe. You were suicidal and you you wrote very poignantly about what stopped you from doing that. if you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about the turning point from being very close to actually seeing that through to not and to then turning your life around.

7:46I think the point you're referring to is the point that when I was in 2019, when I had a, you know, which is about a 30 year gap, I should imagine. And then I became depressed and suicidal again, because I had three things that happened very quickly in my life. My marriage broke down. So I got divorced. My dad died and my dog died all within nine months. It's that compound effect of those little trauma, not little trauma, traumas, they're bloody big traumas. And dealing with one is OK. And there's some psychology around this, like how humans can deal with one or maybe two. But we get three or four, then things really start to the shit show happens.

8:22And that basically is what happened to me. I didn't know how to cope. And I came very, very, very close to taking my own life. um yeah it was just a my heart is racing like yeah like I wrote I wrote letters to my family I planned it um a lot of self-loathing came in because I felt like I could should have been able to cope better doing what I do for a living I'm a life coach I help people I love helping people I love life I just had all this pain and I didn't know how to make it stop weirdly like somebody reached out to me who I didn't know very well. And it was on the day it wanted me to go to an event on the day that I planned to take my life.

9:04And it was a business awards. And she said, Oh, come and sit on the top table with the celebrities. I'd love to have you as my guest. And I was like, I don't know why this woman's inviting me. But anyway, she invited me. So that had a changing moment. And the love that I got in that room that day was incredible. Like nobody knew what was going on inside of me that this is where my mindset was at. I had this white, I always call it my my white light moment where I sat in my car and I it was like I wasn't in this world it was just white light all around me and I was in so much pain I just couldn't even see my own reality and somehow I managed to pick up the phone and call the mental health services because my GP had given me the mental health services number because I had been to see my GP to say look I can't cope with this and I had a conversation with somebody for about 20 minutes I felt okay and I always say to people who are struggling you know just just wait 20 minutes because you don't know how you're going to feel you know I went from my white light moment to 20 minutes later feeling like okay I can go another hour I can do a bit more and I used that reference as I got through that really tricky period of my life you know when I've ever been struggling in sense of like okay just give it 20 minutes and it's massively helped me so yeah and I I massively appreciate you going into such depth with it because you know I I know from having conversations like this regularly it's not easy to to go back there you're you're telling the story with words but you emotionally you revisit these places and it's it's not an easy thing to do but it's incredibly helpful to tell people that there is hope and that there is another option and I think it's incredibly I want to use the word practical without it sound reductive but it's practical to say give it 20 minutes see how your mindset could change in that 20 minutes by having human connection by talking to someone.

11:15I think it's incredibly important to hear that because often when there's very low mood, depression, circumstantial devastation, whatever's going on, we tend to look years ahead. We go, well, how will I ever live forever with this pain? How could I possibly stick around forever with this pain? But to deal with 20 minutes, that's doable. to do life in 20 minute segments is doable and this this continues because you've got a new set of challenges that you're currently dealing with that relate more to your physical health so tell us how you're using the tools that you've learned over the years in your profession but also personal life and your incredibly built up resilience that is hard-earned to to deal with what you're coping with physically at the moment?

12:11Yeah, life is just, it's a roller coaster. But yeah, recently, last March, I came back from Costa Rica. I went on a solo trip around Costa Rica, you know, girl power, my Julia Roberts moment. It's like, I'm going it, I'm going it alone. And then I came back from Costa Rica, I felt crap. Like I was like, two weeks later, I'm like, I still can't be feeling this crap from jet lag. And my iWatch just kept going, your heart rate's low, your heart rate's low. And to be honest, it's probably done that for about a year and I'd ignored it. The upshot of that was I had a lot of scans and tests. And then they did a scan of my head in the hospital because when I was in Costa Rica, I fell and hit my head.

12:51And one of the things with my heart and my blood pressure, they thought I might have a blood clot. So, yeah, basically, I was told like two weeks later that I had a brain tumour. And I had to tap into all of the stuff that I've been teaching and sharing and using anyway to get through life's challenges, but to a greater degree. And I think my heart is now fixed, which is amazing. My blood pressure is still not as great as it should be. But my brain tumor is something I'm having to learn to live with. And it scares me every day. But equally, I'm thriving every day. And I'm learning to live every day by tapping into all of the great things that life has to offer.

13:27You know, and one of the ways I think the greatest way we can heal, and maybe you've done this. I think you probably do this because of the way you do the podcast is we can heal ourselves by helping others. And I don't know. I've heard a lot of your story. And I think this is quite healing. Maybe. Am I right? You're very, very right. I live for this shit. You know, having these conversations is not only amazing to be able to. It's a privilege, quite frankly, to sit and listen to storytelling and to hear different perspectives and angles of life. But I do think it is extremely healing. You can't have these conversations and connections without some self-reflection, self-awareness, some progress, some growth.

14:08I don't think it's possible to have these chats without that. So I think, you know, what you're doing with your life coach work must be really underpinning all that, you know, all of the messaging that you understand to keep you feeling strong. But I wonder, in times of extreme anxiety and fear around the unknown, how you turn towards hope? How do you do that? I have this hashtag that I use a lot and I've shared it for years. Everybody knows who knows me. It starts with you. That's probably what I say to myself every day. Like, I can't control the brain tumour. I can't change what's going on in the world.

14:50the one thing and for all of us we are our greatest asset our longest commitment and we are the one person we get to spend 100 of our time with so everything has to ultimately how I see the world and how I see this podcast and how I see literally everything going on around me comes through me in is and is of me so it starts with me so I have a choice and sometimes that choice is freaking difficult to make. Like when I want to feel pain, sure, I lean into it. And I like Brenny Brown says, lean in, lean in. Well, you've got to learn to lean in and go through. And I think that's it. It's like, okay, have your moment, have your cry.

15:28I learned as a kid, I wasn't, we didn't cry, like stop crying. What are you crying for? Through breath work and stuff like that. I'm now a breath work teacher as well. It's like, I've learned to cry and just lean into it. And if I feel shit and I feel sad, I'm going to go and do a bit of deep breath work and I'm going to yell and get it out rather than suppressing it and pushing it away, like I did about the abuse as a kid and all of those things that I suppressed, which built up and bubbled up and became something quite huge. I don't allow that to happen now. It's like if it comes up, I'm dealing with it.

16:00I'm grateful for literally every day. And I do feel, and this might sound a bit woo, and I'm definitely not really woo, but spooky, but I know there is more for me to do. And I think this podcast, weirdly, like I don't know how you pick me. But I know that the universe is conspiring for me. Have you heard of the word pronoia? No. Pronoia is the opposite of paranoia. I love this. Yeah, it's a great word, right? It's my TEDx talk. And it's where the universe and the things that happen to you are conspiring for you and not against you. So with my brain tumour, it's like, okay, this is happening for you.

16:35Like, because I have worked bloody hard to get recognised and noticed for what I do. And I love what I do. The universe is probably just bringing me things to help me deepen my message, refine my message, impact in a deeper way and in a bigger way. And it's not easy to look at it like that, but I do look at it like that. That's how I get up every day. It's like, it starts with you, Sam Adams, what are you going to do today? Like, how are you feeling mentally, emotionally, and physically? I check in with myself. And I ask myself honestly, and I have a voice note it or I write it down. And then I go, okay, what do you need now?

17:12What do I need mentally? And it's the same for all of us. Every day is a non-refundable day. You can't get to the end of the day and go, I want to redo that again, because I messed it up. I didn't do this. I didn't do that. It wasn't intentional enough. And it's important for us to remember that, that, you know, we're all ending in the same way. So treat every day as your first day, your last day, because it's your only day and it is non-refundable. So give it the best you can. It doesn't mean fake. It doesn't mean trying to be a 10 out of 10 when you're a 5 out of 10. It just means be real. You don't always have to do the right thing.

17:44Be real and see every day as non-refundable. And I think that's something I embrace. I encourage a lot of people to embrace. And even when it's a little bit tricky, it just means we give it a little bit more than normal. I love the word pronoia. I'm taking that, I'm putting that in my pocket and it's going to stay with me because it's such a brilliant mental shift and mindset. I love that. I mean, this whole conversation has been absolutely full of insight and also takeaways. And again, I don't want to use that word reductively, but it really has. I think anybody out there going through anything, you know, remotely challenging to devastatingly challenging can connect with your story, but also really learn from how you have dealt with and are dealing with life's challenges.

18:30And it's a really, it's a really powerful message. and I've loved talking to you Sam it's been it's been brilliant having you on it's been an honour to hear your story and for you to feel safe enough to tell that story that feels like a privilege as well for you to do that in this space I really appreciate it and thank you so much Sam no thank you it's been been amazing been an absolute privilege now on to matt kendall who lives in london he has a background in journalism and communication but after a painful breakup he realized he really needed to have a talk with himself he recognized that he'd made mistakes in the relationship that he hadn't been showing up for his partner so he started doing a bit of soul searching i mean the first thing i learned about was attachment theory.

19:22And I think that was a real eye opener, because I started to realize that I have this insecure attachment style that I am anxious. And I started to realize that there were patterns in my behavior, where I was kind of sabotaging the relationship. And that was connected to, you know, my anxiety and my mental health challenges that I've had for a really long time, but I haven't really confronted them. And I think this was a real wake up call to say, okay, there are certain ways, there are patterns in which I'm behaving in a relationship and in life in general, I suppose, that I really need to fix that they're not healthy.

20:01And I think this relationship just brought them out to the fore. Tell me a bit more about attachment theory, because I think this is a term that many of us will hear floated about, but we might not necessarily understand exactly what it means. So how did you discover that terminology? And how did you see that you were acting in a way that matched what you were reading about attachment theory? Yeah, so attachment theory is essentially about what kind of relationship you had with your primary caregiver, i.e. your parents when you were small. And depending on how they reacted to your needs and how emotionally present they were, etc.

20:40That kind of determines or at least plays a role in how you perceive adult relationships. I think I just realized that there were a lot of anxious behaviors that I was exhibiting with these kind of core fears around abandonment and of kind of not feeling good enough, I suppose. And that had an impact on my behavior in a relationship and how I reacted to conflict resolution or communication. So there were lots of patterns where I just wasn't really able to navigate a relationship in a healthy way. And I realized that that was in part, at least due to these childhood experiences of, you know, how I related to my parents, but also childhood experiences at school and with other people.

21:25So essentially, attachment theory says you either have a secure attachment, in which case you have a kind of healthy or healthier relationship with your parents and they kind of meet your needs or you have a an insecure attachment which is more either anxious or avoidant where there was perhaps an inconsistency in the way that your parents looked after you or met your needs and so that means that you also develop an inconsistent approach to to relationships and there are kind of core fears and and concerns around them I mean this is this is deep work But, you know, having that realisation for a start is humbling, I would say, because you I know these feelings of when you have a realisation like, wow, I didn't even know I was acting like that.

22:09And you start to see patterns and you start to understand why relationships have broken down or you've experienced challenges that keep cropping up and keep cropping up. It's a really difficult thing to to have that awareness. But to make change is a whole other kettle of fish. So how did you start to move towards positive change so you could write the things that you felt weren't correct, that you were perhaps not dealing with things as well as you could? How did you start to implement that change? Yeah, that's a good question, because for the longest time I was reading about all this stuff and thinking, you know, I recognize all these patterns.

22:51I recognize all these challenges, but how am I going to dig myself out of this and and change? And I think I just eventually, after a long time reading about all of this stuff, I just thought, well, that's enough. I've read enough now. I know what I need to do, which is I need to work on myself. I need to actually put all these things into practice. and just starting to say yes to things. I mean, a big part of it, I think with any breakup, you sort of start to have a more, what's the right word? Not a gung-ho attitude, but you start to say yes to more things just to kind of keep busy. And I think a big part of that, putting all these things into practice was just saying yes to things.

23:32And then being in the situations where I could react differently to a certain circumstance in a healthier way and go to therapy and, you know, just try and figure out how to be better ultimately. I think I just talk about, you know, in relationships, kind of bringing up certain things, just being a bit bolder about bringing up things that I think I was afraid to bring up before and just thinking through, you know, if I feel kind of triggered by something, thinking why am I feeling this way and taking a moment to kind of stop and then think what's the best way for me to react to this situation.

24:10Yeah, a beautiful pause. You know, none of us do this enough in life. I'm absolutely guilty of not doing that essential pause before we respond to a situation or a trigger. And it can be absolutely game changing. Another important point that you put in your email to us was your thoughts around toxic masculinity. Tell me what you learned from this relationship about toxic masculinity. yeah so I think it's a it's a really difficult issue because one of the things that I I've struggled with I think is I think as a society we kind of venerate confidence and kind of prowess and strength from men and it's seen as a kind of attractive trait and it's kind of drilled into us that that's something we should aspire to but at the same time it seems from everything I've read and digested that to be in a healthy relationship you also need that vulnerability, that kind of honesty, openness, vulnerability.

25:08And I think it's really difficult because I think as men, generally, we get very contrasting messages around, you know, you need to be confident, you need to be strong. And at the same time, you need to open up and tap into your emotions. And so I think toxic masculinity kind of doesn't really allow us to tap into our emotions. And I think my biggest realization perhaps is that difficulty, that kind of dichotomy between vulnerability and confidence is quite a hard one to reconcile. But also that these kind of attitudes to masculinity aren't really helping men because we suffer in silence. You know, if you look at the kind of statistics around mental health and suicide being the, I think it's the leading killer of young men still, we're not kind of encouraged to tap into our emotions.

25:57And that doesn't help men, but equally it doesn't help women either because we don't end up having fulfilling relationships where we're really honest and open with each other. So I think it's just taught me that it's really damaging for both sexes really and I don't know that I necessarily have the answers. You know it'd be great to have the answer I guess I'd be a rich person if I did but it's just taught me that how much it impacts both men and women and how damaging it is. In previous relationships have you found that quite suppressing feeling like you weren't able to talk about things you were struggling with or have conversations about issues that were perhaps mentally affecting you I think in previous relationships yes I was a little bit reluctant to open up because I felt I had to put on this this confident veneer I think I've become a bit more open as I've gotten older so I'm I think my My problem sometimes now is regulating how much I want to share and how much vulnerability I need to I want to express.

26:59But I know with a lot of my friends, for instance, they've had issues with that in the past and they've kind of been through therapy and been through, you know, a journey to try and be more vulnerable and to try and express emotions. But, yeah, it's it's as I say, it's difficult because I think we just we're not really encouraged to do that. And I think it's just it's really damaging. Yeah, that's very much why myself and the Happy Place team just thought your email was so interesting because often, and certainly on this podcast and within my friendship groups, we hear a lot about the end of a relationship from a female point of view.

27:35You know, we've talked about heartbreak and ghosting on this podcast and other sort of complex relationship fallouts. But I don't think I've heard many men talk about their feelings, not only of heartbreak and the loss of a relationship ending, but also the self-reflection element of, well, actually, a lot of the time, you know, for men and women, we can end a relationship and go. we can see all the flaws with the other person everything that was wrong with the other person they were this they were that this is why it didn't work out but to turn the spotlight onto yourself and I think as a man is absolutely breaking down the barriers of toxic masculinity and allowing men to hear these points of view and these stories and giving other men permission to go, yeah, that breakup hurt, but also what could I do to ensure that things feel healthier in the future?

28:35I think it's deeply important to do that. One of the things that is also, I think, really difficult is of all the stuff that I was reading about and all the YouTube videos that I was watching, it wasn't that they were inaccessible to men. Obviously, anyone can read these books or watch these videos. But it was interesting how they were really predominantly aimed at women, and there weren't very many men engaging with this kind of thing. And so that also, I think, started to make me wonder about bigger issues around relationships and dating, you know, in current times is, you know, how are we, how are we, are we creating an atmosphere in which men can talk about relationships and talk about vulnerability, and learn about how to navigate relationships as well, because we're not really taught how to be in relationships, we just kind of get thrown out into the world.

29:28And then we make mistakes. And hopefully we learn from them. But some people, I guess, might not learn from them and just carry on repeating the same mistakes. So it really made me think about, you know, what can we do to foster an environment where we talk about how to communicate, how to resolve conflict, you know, commitment issues, or whatever it might be because it's a skill and you know we go to school to learn certain skills and that's a good thing obviously but we don't go to school to learn about communication or relationships whether that's romantic relationships or friendships or you know family relationships you know it's really important and and yet it's really overlooked that's so massively overlooked and it can be you know life-altering especially if you keep repeating as you say the same the same issues, the same problems, you keep getting to the same dead end again and again.

30:21And like you say in your email, you've touched on it briefly today. Sabotage was certainly the flavour of issue for you in terms of, you know, ruining something that was quite good, because what was the feeling? You didn't deserve it or that was familiar to you? What was leading you to sabotage, do you think? I think it's it's kind of a feeling of not feeling good enough, which I think I've always I've always felt to a certain degree throughout my life and kind of interpreting being very kind of knee-jerk in my reactions to certain things interpreting things in automatically the negative way when actually as I said earlier if you can take that pause to think about what might be the alternative interpretations you can see that there's actually a whole litany of different ways that some someone might have expressed something that aren't necessarily negative And other behaviors as well of just kind of shutting down, of distancing myself, really being afraid of conflict, of this idea that as soon as conflict happens, it means that the relationship is over.

31:28And so doing absolutely everything to avoid conflict, even when it can just be a simple conversation and the conflict can be resolved. so yeah this is all the stuff that I I read about and I recognized all these patterns and it was so eye-opening to read about and as I say I just I read all this and just thought enough's enough I I need to I need to fix this yeah and I guess to do that you've got to have quite a decent dose of self-compassion because whenever we have realizations about ourself or our patterns our behavior. We can easily go into self-loathing. I think most people will recognize those feelings of thinking, oh, I'm getting it all wrong.

32:11Why am I so flawed? You know, if you apply compassion to that self-awareness, that's where you can spark positive change. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I went through at the beginning, I went through a lot of, as I said, self-blame, a lot of self-loathing and thinking, how could I have behaved this way? But it was also learning about things like attachment theory and childhood experiences that I realized that these were patterns that were kind of subconscious, really. So I was just playing out patterns that unwittingly were familiar to me. And so that's where I think that helped me get some sort of degree of compassion with myself, because then I thought, OK, well, this these behaviors can be fixed.

32:53They're not really my fault because they're so deeply ingrained. I can work on them and change them. And that allowed me the compassion for myself that I needed to then not just identify these patterns, but actually say, OK, let's work on fixing them. Yeah, it's so brilliant. It's so brilliant. And I'm really grateful that we've had this conversation today because I think it's one we really need to have. And it's also one that we haven't really had on this podcast out of the 200 whatever it is episodes that we've done now. I don't think we've heard about the end of a relationship from a male point of view in this way.

33:29And I think it's it'll be hopefully very relieving for other men. It might spark interesting conversation between couples. it might really help people that are you know coming out of a relationship and feeling a little bit lost I think it's um it's a really needed chat and and we're very very grateful for you being here today and we're really grateful for your beautifully articulate email so thank you so much Matt it's been a joy to talk to you today thank you for being on Happy Place. Thanks very much Fern. Well Matt touched on suicide being the biggest killer of men under 45 and that is something that Mel Anderson very sadly knows about all too well.

34:11Mel who works in mental health in Greater Manchester lost her only child Jake to suicide in August 2015. Since then she's been working to explore the question is suicide preventable or inevitable? I asked her to tell me a bit about her son Jake.

34:58He was travelling with friends and going to festivals and making his way in life. And he was really passionate about photography and he took up a degree in contemporary photography. He just finished his first year of that when drastically things started to change. And that was just 10 months before he died. So during that 10 months, what did you notice? What changed about Jake's behaviour? In Jake's situation, it was quite drastic. He became impulsive, reckless, extremely challenging, and his mood swings were rapid. And his behaviour was so completely out of character. Just, you know, sort of emotionally challenging, just getting angry at inappropriate things.

35:52you know um you know when it wasn't necessary to be so angry about something which just was so far apart from what jake was normally um what he was normally like it was clear there was something very wrong but he knew himself that there was something very wrong we just you know um at that point didn't know what that was i mean this was made uh in an incredibly complicated time because your son was actually refused mental health assessment because of substance misuse. Talk to me about that period. How frustrating that must have been to not get him the help that he desperately needed at this time.

36:34It was soul-destroying to watch. And what happened was Jake obviously realised something wasn't right. He deferred his second year of his degree. He took himself to his GP. and unlike many males who struggle to to reach out and to talk about how they're feeling Jake didn't fit that mold he couldn't have shouted any louder and I'm so proud and privileged that he shared everything with me and he spoke to me and he trusted me and he talked to me about a substance misuse and so on and he knew that he could trust me so the situation with the sort of being denied dual diagnosis was because I found out around this time in sort of January 2015 that Jake had been self-medicating using diazepam, benzos, other things off the internet which obviously apparently that's quite common but extremely dangerous.

37:32Now to cut to the chase Jake more than likely had bipolar. I don't say that lightly because I've spoken with a number of people who did spend time with jake professionals and so more than likely there was something like that really underlying that was coming to the surface as he was sort of 22 23 and so self-medicating using benzos was making that worse it was you know sort of you know sort of amplifying the ups and the crashes and so on and that's why now i understand his behavior and how erratic it was and how chaotic life became quite a few months after that. So Jake did go to his GP. You know, I built a bond with his GP as well and visited many times with and sometimes without Jake.

38:17And at that time, I guess his hands were tied because Jake had told him that he was already addicted to diazepam. He already had a dangerous tolerance. So for that reason, at that time, he was told he wouldn't be assessed or have any mental health in the community support and he had to deal with the substance misuse which we took as as it is that's that was how it was and that's the path that we that we went down you know following procedure following instructions doing what we thought was right um because the idea then was that jake would get support if he needed he needed a safe prescription to be weaned off benzos, which apparently takes time.

39:02It's complicated in itself and not easy. And once we got to a point, that kind of point, then he'd be more stable and able to assess him, which I understand. You know, I understand it's not always the right thing to have a mental health assessment when you are taking and using chaotically also recreational drugs at times and, you know, sort of diazepam. So, yeah, we were trying to follow what we were asked to do. Yeah, which is a lot for you to cope with and was a lot for Jake to cope with without having proper mental health support in place. It's a very big ask to do that. In the email that you sent us, you told us about August 2015.

39:49This is when Jake took his life, an unimaginable tragedy for you to experience. And alongside that immeasurable grief, you were also asking yourself a lot of questions. One of them was, is suicide preventable? Which is something that I know has played on your mind a lot. But also this led you to take the advice of the coroner, which was to ask another question, which is what would Jake's experience be like today? And I'd love to hear a bit more about what you learned by asking that question and the subsequent investigation. So, you know, those 10 months were really complex and chaotic. And Jake was, you know, to cut to the chase, he was passed from pillar to post.

40:45There was so many lovely individuals and organisations there to help Jake, but in many ways, we were all isolated, trying to bang on that door individually, and it was disconnected. so Jake didn't get a safe prescription and he didn't get any mental health support and that was really the tragedy of everything that happened so the inquest was a real sort of turning point for me in that the coroner saw everything that I'd seen and more and she issued a regulation 28 to bring about changes for future to ensure that when, to prevent future deaths if you like and she made a number of recommendations and those those recommendations were about bringing services together working together in a different way than they had done previously in that particular area um when jake was poorly and at that time when he when he took his own life um for the first two years after jake died i i really did you know i was i was totally consumed by by everything and i think i i put in my my letter to you that just before jake died or weighed about six stone ten and that was just purely just a stress you know and the irony of that was I was able to look after myself after Jake died and things were you know calmer so in the first two years after Jake died I revisited I followed up sorry all of the recommendations at the coroner made I met with people who worked with Jake um people who hadn't worked with Jake I met with a medical director of NHS England in Greater Manchester, who was very sincere and very generous with his time.

42:27And I had conversations about what was changing there and then, which gave me at that time some confidence that it was taken seriously and that changes were coming about. and then you know grief and just trying to get on your life and managing with grief and trying to be uplifting and do you know do nice things and remember jake when it was five years after jake died which was almost three years ago now i decided that i was going to ask a question that was so important to me what would jake's experience be today and to go back to those recommendations because if I don't see that change then I don't really have anything.

43:08So I went back to some of the same people again some different people and I found writing really therapeutic just to capture and not have to carry things around in my head and what I found was really positive and really encouraging and you know it's it's not even things that necessarily cost money Of course funding is needed, of course it is, and of course it's needed. You know, really it's working with what you've already got. And it's about all the agencies who were involved with Jake, the Young People's Substance and Shoes, who were fantastic at that time. And they had to refer Jake to the adult service, which was difficult because they didn't have the skills that the Young People's Service had and so on.

43:52GPs' hands were tied and the mental health team, everyone thought they couldn't refer somebody who was being treated for you know substance misuse but they you know they were so wrong and this whole chicken and the egg thing absolutely infuriates me because it's just about you'll never get to the bottom of chicken and the egg and as somebody you know did what is their beginning the mental health issue or did that come later or it doesn't actually matter it's about the here and now and really dealing with that situation so in a nutshell those particular services that in in the area where jake lived and died they all the barriers that jake came up against um they've all gone um he will be seen far more quickly by a clinical lead if he did if somebody like jake needed a safe prescription you know he might you might not get a prescription straight away i understand that far better now than i i I did then.

44:51The doctor who said no to Jake on the 20th of May 2015, and that was a date I couldn't erase from my mind for a long time because I saw it as the sort of turning point when Jake decided that nobody could help him. It took me a while. The offer was always on the table for me to speak to her after Jake died and to find out more. I spoke to many people, but I couldn't face her for about 18 months you'll think I wanted to blame her so I mean I did sit down with her and talk to her and look her in the eye I didn't like all the answers um but she put me straight on a few things and you know her her job is so important she needed to know what exactly what Jake was taking and how much because she has to really measure out that prescription but if Jake was went to that same service today he wouldn't be assessed and reassessed and reassessed it would be much quicker And the answer at that point might still be a no, but there'd be a wraparound support until perhaps the answer for whatever reason might be a yes.

45:56And also within that sort of circle of professionals now, the mental health team can come in. It doesn't mean that you will get an assessment if you're taken chaotically, because I understand that's pointless doing that. But it doesn't mean you can't have some support along the way. you know and what really stood out to me was that jake jake's case worker at phoenix phoenix futures was absolutely fantastic and jake had a great relationship with her and so did i and she felt you know so alone helped and she took jake as i did to the gp you know weeks just a couple of weeks before he died asking for mental health support for her as well because she felt like i did like i don't know what else to do everyone just keeps sending him home um whether it be a and e or whether it be the g you know the gp or or the adult substance machine service so you know bringing that team together it's not only supports that individual the service user but it supports everybody else who's supporting that person whether it be your mom you know or your carer your best friend or whether it be your caseworker um or your gp about making decisions so yeah that was quite a turning point really to be able to let go of a few things jake's loss is just you know he was 23 like any like any 23 year old had everything to to live for and you know it was it's just too tragic to dwell on um and that's you know kind of how I've I've tried to do uplifting things positive things to to be able to move forward really that's where I got to that question really you know is suicide preventable or is it inevitable and I guess for me the answer to that is you know it's preventable if the missed opportunities from the past are today's lessons learned and it's small steps you know we're not entirely there but there are good pockets of good practice going on and better practice I'm I'm so so glad that we are seeing as you say small incremental steps in the right direction there's still a hell of a lot of work that needs to be done but it's incredible that Jake helped push that in your area he helped create incredibly necessary change and that is the most beautiful thing it's amazing that you've you've been able to get the the positive outcome to how these situations are dealt with and the answer to that question is a positive one.

48:45There's room for progress, there's room for growth, but there is growth and there is progress there. And that is a good thing. And I know it can't take away your pain and it can't change anything for you personally, but it is incredibly important that this progress is being made. And it's a beautiful thing that Jake was part of that. It really, really is you spoke so eloquently and beautifully about your son and your pain and the the entirety of your story you did it so beautifully and I'm really really grateful because I think your your story but also the information that you've been able to attain from being through such a process is um is hopeful for people it's it's hopeful for people that there is more help and that positive changes are happening and I'm so grateful that you sent us your story that you emailed us it's incredibly courageous to do so not only to write it down but to say it out loud so thank you for for being massively courageous today and for sharing your story with us we are incredibly grateful Mel thank you so so much oh thank you yeah and I'm proud of Jake because it's it is his voice um if he hadn't you know told his mum everything he didn't have to a 23 year old boy um then I wouldn't have known the heart of it um there wouldn't be those changes so yeah I am proud very proud of Jake thank you oh thank you so much Mel that chat was incredibly raw and massively touched me and the happy place team we all had somewhat of a massive cry after that conversation and a huge hug and it actually well this whole this whole experience of talking to you lot has really made me and the happy place team dig a lot deeper we ended up in a massive discussion straight after the recordings about what else we need to do at happy place to ensure that well basically we're doing our best so that we are continuing to forge community but also doing our best to give resources to people that really need it.

51:01So we're constantly doing that. Watch this space. Sam, Matt and Mel, I cannot thank you enough for being just so generous with your time and your words and your heartbreaks and your discoveries. It was such a privilege to get to chat to you all. Do head over to Instagram at Happy Place Official to show all these guys some love and share what particularly resonated with you. I know it would mean the world to Sam, Matt and Mel. A massive thank you again to our brilliant guests, Sam, Matt and Mel, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio, and an absolutely huge thanks to you. You are the reason we get to celebrate such an amazing milestone.

51:43I bloody love you. Thank you so much for being such a vital part of Happy Place.

51:56Thank you.