Zandra Rhodes: Self-belief, workaholics, and sentimental hoarding

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that encourages you to ditch the crowd and follow your own trends. Today, I'm chatting to Dame Zandra Rhodes. I think we should dress up. I think it helps your life. I think it makes you face the world. It's very funny. I mean, I must have been born with a very thick skin because someone once said to me, doesn't it upset you that people look at you all the time? And I actually think I just go through with blinkers on and don't always notice. I think it's that you've got to follow your beliefs and keep going in whatever you do. The adventures take you up and down and they've taken me to wonderful places and I don't feel like giving up.

0:41Zandra is an iconic fashion designer known for her fabulously bold and colourful prints. She burst onto the fashion scene in the late 1960s and was dubbed the Princess of Punk. I love it so much. She's dressed international stars including Freddie Mercury, Diana Ross, Barbara Streisand and Princess Diana. In fact, you're going to want to have Google at the ready to look up some of the incredible people that Zandra name drops during this chat. Honestly, you're going to go down an absolute rabbit hole of glitz and glamour. She mentions her friend Andrew Logan quite a lot. He's a magnificent sculptor and performance artist.

1:22Zandra is so visually vibrant with her signature pink hair, but her energy is similarly vibrant and forward thinking. So it's a real joy to get to know more about what drives her. Her mum was a huge influence on her unwavering self-belief. She looked back at her life for the first time, really, in writing her new book, Iconic, My Life in 50 Objects. And I'm so grateful to Zandra for continuing to reflect on her life and career with me in my little garden studio. You join us just as Zandra was explaining that she tends to do her own pink hair dye. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold.

2:04That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about.

2:41Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds, or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding, and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret.

3:17The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Aloe Yoga uses. Sign up for your$1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash retail, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash retail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash retail. You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games, saints and sinners, unexpected laughs and unspoken truths, good times, hard times, and of course, family.

4:05Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org.

4:19right let's do it here's the show

4:43three or four months yeah but the rest of the time i put it on at night and sleep in a great big plastic hat with a black towel on. I love it. I love it. It's so good. But should we just start then? Because it's not much different to what we're doing now, having a chat. Zandra Rhodes, what a joy to have you here. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. It's a fabulous honour, thank you. And here I am wearing one of your designs. I know, a silver one. It looks absolutely gorgeous on you. I think you can wear sequins on a Friday morning. Why not? It's a very important podcast. Why not? I love just being able to put a dress on for the sake of it and not wait for the occasion.

5:23Oh, I think we should dress up. I think it helps your life. I think it makes you face the world when you and particularly if you don't feel so great, it's often better to dress up and then it makes you feel OK. And, you know, rather than explain yourself and think, oh, I feel awful and it makes you feel worse. Yeah, I agree. I think especially with colour, it just boosts my mood. And obviously, this is why I adore your work, because you are the most colourful and vibrant designer out there. But also how you express yourself. Makeup and experimentation with makeup and hair and clothing has always been hugely important to you.

6:02Why do you think that is? Because not everybody feels like that. I never go out without my makeup, ever. And I sleep in it. Do you? I sleep in it and just wash it off in the morning and put a new lot on. I love it. And if I'm really late, I can only make up around the edges. But it saves time. It saves time. I like it. But it's always felt like something you've needed to do because way, way back at the start of your career, you were dying your hair green, you were hanging feathers off the end of it. It's always been something that you've been drawn to experiment with. I've always enjoyed it. It always completes an outfit, you know, and I just feel my eyes look better when they're made up.

6:40I mean, I probably need to start rethinking a look rather than everyone say, oh, she's had that same blue eyeshadow forever. And the eyebrows look just the same. So, I mean, I might experiment, but I have to give myself time to do that in between the book. Well, exactly. We're going to get onto this book in a minute. I'm so full of admiration for anybody out there who goes against the grain with what is in the mainstream. And you've done that since the start of your career. You've not followed trends. you've set trends and you've done your own thing you've gone with what feels right to you I do think it takes a level of courage to do it some people would feel far too nervous to dye the hair a bright colour wear clothes that stand out how do you think you've managed to not worry about what people think of you I think it's it's actually that I've I have an image that I can hide behind I think it builds you up if you do things and it's very funny I mean I must have been born with a very thick skin because someone once said to me doesn't it upset you that people look at you all the time and I actually think I just go through with blinkers on and don't always notice and the only time I notice if I did forget my makeup and I'm putting the dustbins out outside the museum and then everyone comes up and wants a photograph and an autograph and I look terrible so I never go out without makeup.

8:03I love it. My mum has never gone anywhere without makeup or heels on. I've never seen her in a flat shoe in my life, ever. Oh, I envy the fact that she's not in a flat shoe. I can't. I'm in flat shoes a lot of the time now. My mum's even got platform slippers for the house. Oh, I love it. Yeah, she'll never be seen with a flat shoe. But makeup, again, I think my mum, and I'm the same. I will go out with that makeup on, but my mum feels like it's sort of a suit of armour. That's her way to leave the house and face the world, putting the makeup on. I think makeup and hair, that's why I think hairdressers are so important, really, because makeup, if your hair looks really terrible, you feel awful.

8:44It doesn't, you know, you've got to face the world. I mean, you've even had back in the day, one of your boyfriends said, I don't like your theatrical look. Or you could sense that he was really against what you were doing in the experimentation. how did that make you feel at the time and and how do you deal with that sort of critique I suppose it would have been in the end no but that not that boyfriend because if it's someone that really feels embarrassed being with you then you know then what sort of relationship is it yeah you know but I think that's maybe a rare take on it because I think people do morph to suit the group they're with or to suit the partner there with not entirely but I think people do feel pressured to be pleasing to others around them but I love the fact that you have always stuck to your guns on what works for you yeah I try and be look at well actually believe it or not I don't say that I look at myself very much I just put the makeup on check that the hair looks okay and think well that that would be all right although when I got here I thought oh my hair looks a bit flat and then I puffed it out and It didn't look so bad.

9:52It looks so brilliant. I love it. I love it. So let's get on to your amazing book, Iconic, which I adored reading. It's packed with so many brilliant stories. And it's all based around objects in your apartment. You start the book by saying you're a hoarder, self-confessed hoarder. Do you find it very difficult to throw things away? I'm awful at throwing things away. That's why in the middle of my table I've got this whole lot of stones everywhere. You know, all of them tell a story, but I should have labelled them because I've forgotten some of the stories, you know. But I put the stones there and I collect things.

10:31You know, if I get given a picture, I put it somewhere, you know, so that I think hoarding, you know, it's the memories it has for you. Of course, it doesn't help with dusting. No, that is a big problem. But I don't do the dusting, so that's all right. I mean I'm not a minimalist but I love chucking things away I will routinely do a big sweep around my house I will get all the cupboards open I'll get everything out and I will cull and I love that feeling that's bravery could you not do it I'd be tending to think well maybe one or two of those look old and the rest get put in a bag and I think maybe I'll sort them later I tend to sort of not do something about them and then you find the moths get them.

11:16That's worse. Yeah, that's not good. The old moths. Oh, no, I love it. It makes me feel like I've sort of cleansed my life having a big chuck out. I love it. All to the charity shop. Brilliant. Well, I had a boyfriend that took all my things to the charity shop. I think that story's in there as well. Where I came home and he'd thrown away all this wonderful coat that I had, a lovely short bright orange coat and lovely stripy fur coats. And they were all gone. But you bought some of them back? I went to the shop and pleaded with them and got a few of them back. But I can't believe, when I look back, I think, how could he have done something like that?

11:53He could have at least put them in a box and said, Sandra, I'm fed up with this, not go and take them to a charity shop. It's outrageous. I know. Also knowing how meaningful they were to you, that you loved them so much. I can't bear it. They obviously didn't mean anything to him. Clearly not. Clearly not. Right at the start of the book, one of the first objects in your apartment that you focus on that evokes memories and stories is fly spray due to your mum. And your mum features a lot in the book. She's a really important character to you. Can you tell us a bit about her and the impact? She taught dressmaking at the college I went to.

12:32And she was very, very exotic. She had double platform green lizard shoes with ankle straps and she put her hair up and she'd, maybe it was going grey, I can't, I don't remember, but she had this curl that she'd spray silver and then spray it with hairspray so it would stay up. so we get up this must have been about 6 o 'clock in the morning and we're on the bus on the way to the station and she said my head does sting my head does sting and she'd realised that instead of putting the hair set spray to keep the curl she'd sprayed herself in fly spray you know fly killer fly killer and her head was stinging and she goes into the chemist shop and she says you may think I'm an idiot but And the man said, well, unless you go back and wash your head, you're going to have to live with it all day.

13:26So we went up to London here with her on this workman's train with her hair and smelling a fly spray. But all the flies stayed away, which was good news. No flies. No flies. She seemed to make such an impact on you in so many ways, not just stylistically, but her work ethic and her manner. What life lessons do you think she taught you? I suppose she taught me hard work because when she wasn't teaching, she'd be making wedding dresses at home. So we had her at the sewing machine making wedding dresses and she was always very exotic. And when we had an open day at school, I'd say, please, don't come looking so different from all the other mothers.

14:09How funny. Because she looked, she'd amazing. She'd come in a wonderful hat and look very exotic. and I've done a drawing of her with long gloves and a wonderful 50s sort of flowing dress and she and my father were Kent dance champions and she used to make all these wonderful frilly dresses that she always looked wonderful ballroom dancing in them. So as a kid you did have that sense of, oh, we're a bit different to everybody else. Yes, I suppose I did, Although my father, who was very, my father was more like Elf Garnet and they'd met ballroom dancing. And so they didn't really, in a weird way, have a lot in common.

14:58And it was something that I couldn't face easily as a child. You know, it's very funny. In doing this book, my sister's granddaughter researched and found out about the murder of his mother in Chatham. which if you think of that in the, what, it would have been probably the 20s and it was in the newspapers, but it was never spoken about in our home. This is all research that's been done for the book. And it seems from reading the book and reading your thoughts on your dad that it's given you, I guess, the time and space to see him, not just as your dad, but as an individual and to sort of see his backstory.

15:38And like you say, this tragic situation that happened to him. And he'd never really, you know, he had obviously met this very exotic woman who'd got the guts to go to Paris and work for Worth as a pattern cutter and was very exotic. And he was very handsome. I mean, he did look like Errol Flynn. But, you know, he still was a driver in the dockyard. And I think children are horrible snobs. You know, it's something. and doing the book made me come to terms with it, which was very, you know, quite amazing. So you sort of see him almost in a different light now, would you say? I see him in a totally different light, poor thing, but he's not there for me to say sorry.

16:19Yeah. You know. Well, that's why it's so interesting, I guess, looking back at your whole life and career, is that when would one do that? When would you sit and look back on your whole life? You don't, unless you've got a project like this. Unless a project comes along, exactly. It's such a fascinating process. You say in the book that you often feel like you're an extension of your mum's ambition work wise. Has that led you to feel like there's almost a sense of duty that you succeed and do well? I didn't feel that obligation. I mean, my mother was obviously, you know, both my sister and I are sort of like different extensions of her, you know.

17:00And she obviously was extremely encouraging and really, you know, went all out to see that I followed my career. Yeah. It's so interesting to see the impact that she's made on how you go, how you move through the world and how you create and that drive and that passion. Would you say you're a workaholic? Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? How we sort of, there's a lot of talk about life work balance in the modern world and are we getting the balance right? But you seem to like working a lot. And that is actually something that keeps you on the right track and feeling good. But I'm lucky because it's my work that has taken me on all the different other adventures that you read about, you know, whether it's spending wonderful times with Andrew Logan and doing all his Miss World outfits or whether it's bumping into Divine when we were both co-guests in a house of a friend and then they come round and then thinking of the wonderful adventures that happen.

18:06and only because of this book have I sort of dug out the adventures of things like come back home. I was left for work at seven in the morning. Divine had a lovely time staying at my house and then someone says, oh yes, I came round there for tea with David Bowie. It was lovely. Hello. I never met David Bowie. It's so brilliant. But it has led you on to so many adventures and to meet so many interesting people and to try so many different things. and it doesn't seem like you're slowing down anytime soon. Oh, no. I mean, I go on more and more adventures and the book seems to be taking me on adventures.

18:42I'm here. So it's lovely. It's great. It's great. But I think sometimes we put too much emphasis on that work-life balance. And actually, if you love your job and it gives you fire in your belly, why not do it a lot? I think that you've got to work out a reason for how you do things. I mean, I love my work and, OK, everything you have in life costs an equal amount so the cost is always equal to what you take but you get other rewards too so I mean and I can appreciate my sister's children so I have a life with wonderful friends I as you your read I've nothing to complain about yeah it's brilliant do you think you've ever reached burnout it's something again that we talk about a lot burnout and I couldn't necessarily sense that there were times when you were perhaps pushing yourself a lot, but not to the extent where it felt too much.

19:36As I say, I've got some wonderful friends and probably if I get to the stage where I feel I've run out of ideas or something, someone like Andrew Logan will say to me, Sandra, I think you should have a holiday. Why don't you come down to Wales to my museum and spend a few days? So I've got fantastic friends that are prepared to put up with me. Oh, I know your friendships are so nice to read about in the book. They're so lovely. I wonder how you feel with that whole work-life balance thing since your cancer diagnosis, because this was now, how many years ago is it? That was right at the beginning of COVID, 2020.

20:16Yeah, so four years ago now. I mean, at the time, you seemed to deal with it in quite a pragmatic way. You were given, what, six months to live or something? They said, oh, you've got six months to live. So I told about five people, I said, for God's sake, don't tell anyone or they're not going to give me any more work. They say you're going to be dead and you can't do the work. So I then formed the Zandra Rose Foundation because I'd stored over 6 ,000 garments. All my favourites from every show went into boxes. So since then, we formed the Zandra Rose Foundation. We've recorded all the clothes.

20:54We're working out with museums which museums across the world are going to have them. And then we're now getting things properly photographed to go on the web for students to look at. So I've given myself plenty of work. And I thought, I better not do anything or people aren't going to give me any more work. But I mean, you're now two years in remission, three years in remission? What, about three years or so, yes. You're feeling good? I feel okay and I put makeup on and dye my hair perfectly, you know, so it stays pink. I mean, it's just wonderful. I think whenever I've either interviewed or met people that have still got so much energy, either post illness or later in life, it's because there's a sense of drive that is insatiable.

21:45a drive that gets you out of bed in the morning and ambition that is relentless and never ending. How much would you attribute that drive to your health today and your vitality? Oh, gosh. I mean, I'd say the drive is really probably initially from my mother, then having done the work. And also the thing that is amazing in a career, you'll probably realise, is one's career isn't always at high level. You have lows where no one's taken any notice of your clothes. So the reason I founded the Fashion and Textile Museum was during the late 90s, no one was taking any notice. I'd do a show and no one was noticing.

22:27And then suddenly, and then my friend Andrew Logan said, look, there's this warehouse going in Bermondsey. Why don't you do your museum? You've always wanted to. And I said, what do you think I am? Made of money. And then I realised I could sell my house in Notting Hill and it paid for buying a factory in Bermsey Street, which then was totally derelict and they hadn't built the Shard. So it was, you know, it worked out perfectly. I mean, you've said that in like a very succinct way, just bought this warehouse made into a museum. That's no mean feat. Oh, but I lived in squalor for four years. Did you?

23:05You know, like the women's toilets were sort of the bathrooms and then the men's toilet was where we did the laundry, you know what I mean? And then there were different offices and they were all made disguised to be either bedrooms or dining rooms, you know. It was pretty squalid till I raised the money to rebuild it. I mean, thank God you did. And also your apartment is above the museum, so you are living and breathing that museum. I live and breathe the museum, yes. Oh, it's so brilliant. And it's just an amazing celebration of design. And sometimes I feel like whether it's design, art, music, maybe even acting, sometimes it's seen as like not a proper job.

23:50I mean, my job has definitely been called that, not a proper job. I think it's such a proper job. People need art. They need colour. They need vibrancy. They need inspiration. This museum is a celebration of all of that and for a chance for people to see the craft in it. What you've said, I love your idea of saying your job or my job aren't proper jobs, whereas we're making people feel wonderful with clothes or we're exciting their ears listening to what we're talking about. I mean, I think the whole art is making things in your life important and what you do with it. And I mean, right from when, because I thought, I don't know what I'm going to do with when they, I said, I don't want anyone to know that I might drop dead or they won't ask me to do a job.

24:32and I was in the middle of negotiating with IKEA to do a whole range for IKEA. Then I did a range of wallpapers. So it worked perfectly and no one need know. And then at the end, the doctor was so pleased. He said, would you be prepared to do an interview at the time? And so then, you know, then I said about it, but I didn't, I kept it secret right at the beginning. Yeah, well, which is absolutely your right to do that and to get through it however best you can. So going back to that period in the 90s, where, as we know with fashion, it comes and goes in circles. And there's these periods where, you know, sort of flamboyant clothing, the stuff that I like, full of colour and print and fun, is really in fashion.

25:14And then we get this sort of beige thing. Beige and black. Beige and black. I feel like it's quite beige and black at the moment out there. And I always just stick to colour because I like it. It makes me feel good. I don't really necessarily follow trends. I'm probably a bit old to follow trends anyway. But when you're in the industry of it and you sense people aren't interested in my work, people aren't coming to my fashion shows. Have you been tempted to compromise your design ever, your style? Well, in forms of compromise, it might mean that if you were doing all very loose dresses, the style suddenly changes.

25:48So you hope as a designer, you're going to come up with things that people are going to really want to wear, you know. And so that doesn't always happen. Or some people might say they don't want to be in a very bright printed dress, you know. So you face that, but I think you just keep going. And then I'm lucky because I'm actually a textile designer that had to find a job. Yeah, because that was your first thing was designing all of these beautiful prints. And then I had no one wanted to make them into dresses. So I thought, well, I better make them into dresses. So I put on my Bieber boots. And at that time, I had all this.

26:25When I look back at the makeup it looks like I've been punched in the face but um I drew um I had tight headscarves and then I drew red curls on my face and then I had high white beaver boots and flowing chiffon and that's how I went into American Vogue when she saw my dresses and raved about them and Deanna Vreeland who herself she had this wonderful hook nose and shaded all the edge of her face red and then dyed black hair and she raved about my dresses. So it was really America. I felt like, I don't know, a princess, the way they treated me over there. You had huge success and fame in the States.

27:07Huge success over there. And I had, well, poor Lauren Bacall, there's a story of her stepping on a pin in my studio. She came in and she went, oh, oh, oh. She stepped on a pin in my studio. Oh, dear. Yeah. Oh, so you got through the stress of that. I got through the stress of that. So, you know, so it was sometimes, you know, by chance how you look. And then I met this amazing designer, Angelo Dongio, interior decorator, who did Halston's studio. And he said, well, if you look like that, I've got to see your designs. So he bought my designs for wallpaper and furnishing fabric so you know i had some great adventures with my bieber boots yeah and your bieber boots my auntie was so obsessed with bieber back in the day that my cousin is called bieber that's my actual name oh that's fabulous i know it's a great name isn't it the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

28:13Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

28:49Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. This podcast is supported by The RealReal. Meet Christine. She loves shopping. And this is the sound of fashion overload. Too many fabulous things, not enough space. So Christine started selling with The RealReal. I've always loved collecting designer pieces.

29:26Gucci bags, Prada heels, but my style keeps evolving. Selling with The RealReal, game changer. I earn more and they do everything. Seriously, just drop off your items or schedule a pickup. We handle the photos, descriptions, pricing, even shipping. You just sit back and watch your items sell fast to our 38 million members. And I get peace of mind knowing I earn more selling with The RealReal than anywhere else. Exactly. This? That's the sound of your closet working for you. The RealReal. Earn more. Save time. Sell fast. And right now, you can get an extra$100 site credit when you sell for the first time.

30:03Go to therealreal.com to get your extra$100. TheRealReal.com That's TheRealReal.com You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue For generations, this house has been home to soulful music Good food and cutthroat card games Saints and sinners Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths Good times, hard times And of course, family Always family So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue A world premiere play only at Arena Stage

30:43Back in the day, it seems like even from hearing you talk just there, everything was about people really grabbing hold of the arts and people saying, I love your style, let's work together. Lots of really great collaborations and work situations were forged on people just vibing off each other's ideas. I don't believe that's how the fashion industry works so much today. It seems maybe, maybe I'm being cynical, but it seems a lot more corporate and everything's so globalised. What do you think about the fashion industry today? I think what you've said sums it up. It is very corporate and globalised, but I hope that young people may be reading the book.

31:22It will give them a chance to think maybe I just try to do something or at least make my mark physically. don't give I mean I think the whole thing in life is don't give up the adventures take you up and down and they've taken me to wonderful places and I don't feel like giving up yeah I think it's so important especially in art and music and probably acting you know I've got friends in all of those areas and I think when there isn't success even after years and years it can be really tempting to go, I've just got to do something else. But you would say, do not give up, keep going. Find a way to keep going, whether you've got to do another some other jobs on the side or or how you do it or whether you you have a group of you, but you somehow keep going because you believe.

32:09Yeah, you've got to have that self-belief. And I guess that was instrumental. Yeah, for you. My mother always was the believer. She'd have said to me, sadly, she never saw my success. But I think it's that you've got to follow your beliefs and keep going in whatever you do. Have you had periods where you've lost your self-belief? I've had periods when I felt very low and then I've found it's nearly always my friends that would build me up and say to me, don't give up or, you know, be inspiring. Yeah, that's so important. Oh, really, really important. And I think that that's in the book. It's really sort of my different friends and the adventures they've led to me, even down to collecting Dougie Fields paintings and him coming round to sue me with exotic Chalita Secunda by his side.

33:01It was very, you know, it was really quite amazing. Amazing. There's just so many beautiful stories in there. A part of the book that I loved reading was all about your late life partner, Salah. He didn't notice that I had pink hair when you saw he was totally conservative. You know what I mean? And he once said, why do you dye your hair like that? But he never queried it, you know, and he was like your ultimate businessman. I love it. But you didn't meet him until you were 54. That's it. I was quite old, as they say. But I think that is such a brilliant message to put out there that it is never too late to meet the love of your life.

33:40It's really important to hear that because people, I think, get to a certain age and go, oh, well, I'm just I won't meet anyone now. The other thing was his his marriage had originally failed because he was a workaholic. You know, so even when we first really met and he'd say, we'll go out to dinner tonight. And then I'd I'd bit my studio and I'd I'd I'd have my evening dress on and then he'd phone up and say, I'm still in meetings. So I just took my evening dress off and went went on working. It didn't make any difference. So he didn't notice that I was working. So if we were going on a trip, he'd always be working in the days of faxes more than texts and things.

34:18But, you know. So did that help that you had that similarity that you would happily you had almost your own separate lives and then could come together. You had your own passions and drive. Yes. Yeah. You know, so he'd started from nothing. He was a started as an usher in a cinema and ended up as a president. I mean, you know, it was quite amazing story. Yeah, so he was the president of Warner Brothers when I met him, but he'd been president of Eastern Theatres and everything, but it started from nothing. Do you think being a woman who has got a lot of drive and your own stuff going on and your own business and so much creativity that it would be hard to be with someone who perhaps didn't share that sort of passion and drive because they might not understand how much time you would need to put into your passion and your work?

35:12I think that there's always that problem with a relationship. I mean, I like, I've always liked strong, interesting people and you have to hope that they, but you don't want to sort of really, as it were, feel, you know, men particularly, you don't want to feel you cut their individuality and their balls off, as it were. I think that you, you know, people have to have their own character or they get, you know. But he was able to ignore all of that and liked it when I could help throw an interesting party on the beach and make it look wonderful. Yeah, I bet. And it worked. It worked for you guys.

35:51It was fabulous. So, you know, perfect. And he passed away how long ago now? Oh, he passed away May 2019, just before COVID hit. So I had to, I packed up the house because I knew I wouldn't want to live in California, even though it was glamorous, right on the beach. I wouldn't have wanted to live there without him. So I packed up and everything came back to, the treasures came back to London and the rest was spread between him and the family. I mean, that must have been extremely hard, not only losing the love of your life, but then going into isolation. I wasn't in isolation because I had a lot of friends there.

36:34And then I came back to my wonderful friends here in London. And then the terrible thing that, well, not that terrible, I couldn't get a visa to go back and clear the things myself. My secretary over there had to clear it all with just showing me things on the Zoom and everything and say, do you want this? Do you want that? But everything else. And then it just was shipped back to London. And how did you get through that grief, that period of grief? Work. Bury yourself in your work again. Make it all work. Concentrate on other things. When you're working, when you've got big stuff like that going on, for instance grief, are you channeling the grief into the work or are you distracting yourself from the grief?

37:21That's a difficult one. I think it's a mixture of both. You know, I mean, I think it's a case that you're able to bury yourself and sort more things out and go in that direction. because the worst thing is to sit and think about it I think but there are other people have different solutions I don't think there's a right or wrong is there I think it's however we learn to cope with each thing yeah ourselves yeah I think you just you go intuitively with what feels best to you I guess don't you do you wish you'd met him earlier on in life to have had more time with him no I think I had time to to go through lots of ups and downs and different adventures.

38:05I mean, different, you know, different relationships that you realise that were a complete mistake. I think that, you know, everything has its time and I think we had a perfect time together. And he didn't have time to get fed up with me.

38:25I love it. But I have, in my house, I have all pictures of him for each of his birthdays and in a wonderful Andrew Logan frame. So they're all there. And then I've got my Andrew Logan head that he did for me. Yes. That's where Andrew... Andrew was so frightened that I'd gone with this very conservative man that he said, I'm going to do a statue of you now with your hair pink as it is at the age of 50 because you might dye your hair black and just be very boring. I mean, you did go brunette at one point. I did go brunette. I hated it. I hated it. What did it make you feel like? Boring. And the worst thing was, you know, if you go to a party and someone says, oh, hello, I'm Mary-Anne.

39:09What's your name? And you go, Zanda Rose. And they go, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And it was so embarrassing. I realised that. You just need to be pink. You have to be how they imagine you or, you know, even if it, as you get older, it's a bit different. But it's still there. Yeah, I love it. I'm absolutely obsessed with your pink hair. It's my favourite, favourite thing ever. Tell us more about the museum. I want to know what's in there, how you decided which items would be in the museum. Are you rotating items of clothing that are in there and then new exhibitions? How does it work? The museum has actually got, it does have a permanent collection of mine, but we have travelling exhibitions.

39:50So we did an exhibition of Anna Sui and that has travelled to America and China. It travels. we did one of me and we're working out where that goes to next at the moment we've got a bieber exhibition no way which has been wonderful and that's why i have to be careful how i look when i come out because the people going in there all my age and they go oh we're here for a memory it's wonderful thank you for having it so we have a bieber exhibition on at the moment um so we no it's changing exhibitions i'm imagining you're friends with barbara hello nicky yes but she She lives in Miami because, you know, she's redesigned so many of those wonderful buildings to be hotels and things.

40:34And she looks just the same. She's amazing. She's incredible. And Twiggy came for the opening, which was great. And Twiggy. Yes, I know. So it was fabulous. How amazing. What does rest mean to you today? Because, I mean, looking at the fact that you're running this museum and that you've got a book count. I don't know. I don't run the museum. It's run separately. But it's still on your shoulders, that responsibility. If it's rubbish, it's your face on it. Do you know what I mean? It's got to be good. So you've got that to worry about. I'm wearing one of your dresses now. You're still out there doing all of these collaborations and designs.

41:07You're promoting a book. Do you rest? Is there rest? What does it look like? Well, I mean, I go out to dinner with friends. I went to a wonderful opening in Chelsea last night and had dinner afterwards. And I try and do a dinner party around my magic grey round table that I talk about in the book. I try and do a dinner party every weekend for about eight or ten. If you come regularly, you'll realise it's pretty similar food, but I like cooking. So that's all right. It used to be quite beige, your food, though. Is that right? Oh, that's an early one of my beige dinners. Beige dinners. That's the beige dinners.

41:49Now, I mean, I would do a homemade, maybe a homemade beet soup and I'd follow it either with salmon or I do pomme dauphinase, cheese and potatoes. I usually avoid meat in case I have someone that is vegetarian. And then I do a dessert, which I don't know, it could be gorgeous summer pudding. Always double cream. Love. The more the merrier. Exactly. I love that back in the day you did beige food, although you're the most colourful person ever. Yes. Well, maybe it was because you could do like you could do a sort of it probably would be pasta, yellow, beige-ish pasta with cream and beige-ish dessert.

42:31I don't know. Now, when I was saying there, what does rest look like to you? A big dinner party sounds like not very much rest to me like that. I am an introvert, so I need to be on my own. And I get peopled out if I'm around too many people. So committing to a dinner party every week sounds so exhausting to me. Where is this energy coming from? Well, I don't always do. I load the dishwasher and leave the rest of it for someone to do the next day. So it's not, you know, and then I mean, and then my table is always done. I commissioned all this wonderful handmade pottery. So it's all very unusual pottery, which looks very pretty on the table.

43:14Oh, I bet it looks gorgeous. You used to fall asleep quite regularly, didn't you? And you were sort of out on the night out. I have more sleep now. No, no, no. I have more sleep now. But I did. One of my friends in New York died, sadly, during the terrible outbreak, you know. And when he died, someone gave me a pile of photographs. And they were all photographs of me asleep at his dinners. At the dinner table. So that was extremely embarrassing. Literally at the dinner table you're asleep. Oh, I'd fall asleep. Really? And of course, you never fall asleep glamorously. This one with your mouth open or you're leaning and looking absolutely terrible.

43:52But anyway. And can you fall asleep that easily today? You're quite good at just putting your head in the pillow, you're out. Oh, if you were to say to me, Sandra, you can stay the night, but I've only got this carpet. I could probably go to sleep on that carpet. Really? Quite easily. I am beyond jealous. it takes me so long to have to like process the whole day think about everything I've said to everybody have I done anything wrong like it takes me so long to get to sleep you could just switch off sleep could help me forget you see if I think I've done everything wrong I think close my eyes forget about it then I won't know like say on the way here I'm thinking will I remember what I've even written about and I think I'll stay awake in the car that's hilarious i love it i guess yeah because you just reset and then you start again the next day yeah i suppose it's a sort of drug you know yeah i mean of course you know you've got the little story about my marijuana in there tell us this story this is a fantastic story about the fact oh well i think it was divine that started me off saying they're very pretty plants you know i mean they are i i so i learned really to garden by putting this lovely marijuana plants in my window boxes, inside window boxes.

45:09And then, of course, I got taken away in a police car. Yes, it was very lovely, that whole thing. And so when I apply for, every time I apply for a visa to go to America, I have to get a police report and I have to go and sit in the American embassy. I can't do anything online. That's crazy. Still now. I have to go there physically, yes. This was years ago. I know. It was 1982. Oh, come on. They need to let you off the hook. It's ridiculous. Well, they might do. Now they grow things. But anyway, that was a story for my marijuana. Yeah, the irony. That's outrageous. I mean, it's the interesting thing about reading this book and getting to know a bit more about you is, yes, you might have been castled off by police for growing marijuana.

45:47But bar that, you are a very straight laced person. You like listening to Radio 4, you like gardening and you're a royalist. And what I find so interesting is as human beings, we all walk around and make judgments instantly. on people that we don't know or that we take a glimpse of. And someone might look at you and go, pink hair, exotic clothing, they're probably extremely rebellious, maybe anti-establishment. And you're not at all. I'm anti-establishment in disguise. But I think it's a real lesson in not judging a book by its cover, which is an obvious thing to say, but we all do it still. We all make real assumptions on looking at somebody.

46:31That's true. That's true. And you're none of those things, apart from the one little misdemeanour. I'll be paid for it for the rest of your life. Well, exactly. But at least you didn't eat with laughter. So that's a good thing. It got me understanding gardening. And I love gardening. That was your initiation. Yes, grow those. Incentive. And then since then, I've never smoked anything. No, no. Just actual gardening now. Actual gardening, yes. Actual gardening, which is a lovely thing. You say towards the end of the book that prior to writing this, you've not been one to look back. You've not liked to do so.

47:08Why is that? I suppose I'm always looking towards the next project. And like I say, I'd never been able to face my father's background. You know, I knew that his mother had been murdered and I didn't know I thought she was a prostitute. Do you know what I mean? and so there were only things that were uncovered by my sister's granddaughter. You know, and I feel now that my father got a bad deal really, you know what I mean? Yeah. So do you feel more inquisitive about looking back now? Were you nervous to look back before, do you think, or just didn't want to? Well, I've looked back now, I mean, and then when I was in Australia in April, because I was seeing museums taking my things.

47:58And my friend there kept going then to, she was going back even further to find out that I'd got relatives that had gone, worked with Covent Garden, you know, so it got quite interesting. But I mean, I have to just find the time to do it. Yeah, well, you've got a big career to look over. Finding the time, yes. Finding the time, impossible. What did you learn about yourself looking back at your whole life? Was there any epiphanies you had or anything that felt important looking back over your life and your history.

48:54Come now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

49:26Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. This podcast is supported by The RealReal. Meet Christine. She loves shopping. And this is the sound of fashion overload. Too many fabulous things, not enough space. So Christine started selling with The RealReal. I've always loved collecting designer pieces. Gucci bags, Prada heels. But my style keeps evolving. Selling with the RealReal? Game changer. I earn more and they do everything. Seriously, just drop off your items or schedule a pickup. We handle the photos, descriptions, pricing, even shipping.

50:07You just sit back and watch your items sell. Fast. To our 38 million members. And I get peace of mind knowing I earn more selling with the RealReal than anywhere else. Exactly. This? that's the sound of your closet working for you the real real earn more save time sell fast and right now you can get an extra 100 site credit when you sell for the first time go to the real real.com to get your extra hundred dollars the real real.com that's the real real.com i mean i think in in it i've managed to pinpoint different important things and and managed to face them. Do you know what I mean? Like a period in New York when I went to night clubs and a whole lot of things and my work ethic got a bit thin, you know, or at least because I was always tired because of going out late and now I'm much more disciplined.

51:04Yeah, but you had like the temptation of Studio 54 and all of this amazing excitement going on. It's incredible. But then when there was an exhibition on Studio 54, there was a picture of me with Tina Chow, both asleep against a column. And you never fall asleep glamorously. It's not like you're going... I love it. Your mouth's open and you don't look particularly good. But you still had an amazing outfit on, I'm sure, anyway. Oh, I had a good outfit on, yes. Of course you had a good outfit on. I mean, over the years, some of the people in the book, I've made a short list of some of the most brilliant people, well, some of the people that you work with and dress, like Princess Diana, Jackie Onassis, Freddie Mercury, Princess Anne that was her engagement outfit it was the one yes but I didn't even know that's what was going to happen for English folk phoned me up and said we're dressing a very important lady would you send in a beautiful outfit and I thought it would be Elizabeth Taylor and then it was only a few months later that they said your outfit has been chosen as the one to announce her engagement you know and that was fun and Freddie Mercury is also fun yeah that one where Well, it was funny.

52:10I had this funny, it's a three story. It was right by the railway line in Porchester Road in Bayswater. Very unsheeked bit by the railway line. And it was a rickety staircase. And Brian phoned me up and said, we'd like to make an appointment to come and see you. And I said, well, you have to come in the evening because I don't have a changing room or anything. So they both came in the evening and he was very shy. And it was a case of us in this sort of really untidy workroom and me pulling out different things. And I pulled out that pleated one that you always see him in. Like the cape, like a cape.

52:48The pleated cape one that he looks so wonderful in. So incredible. Is there one defining moment that you love to look back on a certain person wearing an outfit or something that just felt like a real special moment in your career? Gosh. I mean it was wonderful when Barbara Streisand was over here for her last big concert and she sort of like waved her arms and said look at me in my Zandra Rhodes dress you know which was lovely when she came to do her her last concert here in the park that's amazing how incredible I mean the book is absolutely packed with stories so if you're listening to this enjoying it you must get the book and read it because there's so many brilliant, brilliant tales and amazing glamour and excitement as well as a lot of hard work from you, Zandra.

53:34But I loved reading it. I've adored talking to you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been so special. Thank you very much. Zandra, you have always inspired me, but inspired me so much in that chat to ditch the beige, to ditch the outfits that make me blend in. I want to be out there, colourful, wacky, print, glitz, whatever's going on, I want to wear it. You've totally inspired me and also I might dye my hair pink again. I just loved hearing Zandra's brilliant stories. To have a career that spans that length is astonishing and the way that she flippantly talks about Freddie Mercury popping into the studio with Brian May etc was just incredible.

54:19What a life and what a woman. Zandra's book is called Iconic, My Life in 50 Objects and it's out now. And I bloody loved reading it. Are you a hoarder like Zandra or a proper big clear out person like me? Let me know on Instagram at happy place official. Honestly, even after that chat, I want to go and get a bin bag out and start cleaning out a cupboard. Also, it's fascinating that Zandra's idea of rest is throwing a big dinner party every week. It's my idea of hell. Maybe that is super restful for you, too. I would love to know. Now, keep an eye on your podcast feed over the next few weeks because I cannot wait for you to hear loads of the chats we had at the Happy Place Festival in Chiswick last weekend.

55:04If you missed out on tickets, you can be part of the magic with us through your headphones. And if you were there, you can relive the whole thing. Maybe catch a conversation that you missed on the day because you were busy doing some lovely yoga or breath work or something. We'll be in Tatton Park on Saturday the 31st of August and Sunday the 1st of September, by the way. And I would love to see you there. You can get your tickets at happyplaceofficial.co.uk. Anyway, we're going to be back here next week. So a massive thank you again to Zandra, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you.

55:40Keep being your colourful self.

56:14We'll see you next time.

56:21Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds, or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding, and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us.

57:05Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Aloe Yoga uses. Sign up for your$1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash retail, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash retail to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com slash retail.