Why Feds Are Investigating Rep. Ilhan Omar and Why Science Journalist Cleo Abram is Optimistic about AI

0:00Cleo Abram: Kelly Clarkson was shopping over the weekend with her son. I feel like we're gossiping. Okay, go ahead. Hi, everybody, and welcome to Here's the Scoop from NBC News. I'm Yasmin Basugin. So today on the show, we're talking about the controversy surrounding Kelly Clarkson. So she says that she tried to buy this animatronic bird, and the store acted like she couldn't actually afford it. The store and the store owner are saying that's actually not how the interaction went. When? Well, the internet is divided over this thing and they are talking about it. I spoke to NBC News Entertainment correspondent Clay Malas, who went to the store in Brooklyn, spoke to the store owner, and is breaking it all down for us.

0:40Cleo Abram: Also, we're speaking to Cleo Abram. She is a science journalist and she is the host and creator of Huge Conversations and Huge If True on YouTube. She is a self-proclaimed AI optimist. But how does she actually feel about regulation? Up first, though. So just three weeks before the midterms, the DOJ is investigating Minnesota Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, two people familiar with the investigation, tell NBC News that federal agents searched Omar's home in Washington, D.C. this week, and they seized her phone, and they've issued a dozen subpoenas to her family members. The Justice Department has declined to comment on the investigation, but it's just one of a series of moves that this administration has taken to go after President Trump's perceived political enemies this term.

1:27Cleo Abram: And the DOJ is going against its own norms not to take actions that could affect an upcoming election. So for more on this and what could come of it, I want to bring in NBC News senior justice reporter, Ryan Reilly. Hi, Ryan. Hey there. What are they actually looking into here? And can you give us some more details around this investigation?

1:48Ryan J. Reilly: Yeah, I mean, so there's this general conspiracy charge that is one of the things that they're exploring according to the subpoena, which is sort of this catch-all charge that you see in a lot of cases. But really, I think the biggest indicators we get are from the fact that this is about immigration, right? So Representative Omar came to this country when she was 12 years old. She's now, you know, in her 40s, and she was naturalized in 2000, so 26 years ago. What we've seen a lot of online previous to this has been individuals who are sort of going after the timeline of when she came to this country, one of the questions is around sort of her birth date, because we know she was naturalized because her father was naturalized, right?

2:31Ryan J. Reilly: And the issue is there is that she can be naturalized if she was 17, if she was a minor when her father was naturalized. But if she had been 18, that would have been sort of a separate process to happen, right? So what all of this revolves around is, you know, stuff that happened when she was a teenager all these years ago. On the criminal side, it's going to be very tough to find a charge within the statute of limitations because we are talking about something that happened so long ago. And so in order to find a more recent hook, there would have to be some sort of activity in furtherance of a conspiracy, to borrow the legal language, that took place within, say, the past five years.

3:14Ryan J. Reilly: And so, you know, know, if this was something completely theoretically here, right, because we really don't know what happened factually, but if there was some sort of agreement to, you know, stick to a story or something along those lines to continue to mislead the government, that's potentially something that the government could hook onto there. And of course, you know, denaturalization has been a major priority for the Trump administration. And so that also is potentially on the table. But, you know, overall, I think what we know now is that this investigation is very odd because it's taking place so close to the election.

3:50Ryan J. Reilly: And that's just not something we've seen in the past. You don't see these searches of member of Congress's home just a few weeks before the election when they're on the ballot. Traditionally, the Justice Department has blacked out that period. There's been a 60-day rule is what they call it. And there's no actions, overt actions, that would potentially impact how people vote or even be seen as trying to influence how people vote. So that's a real definite, I think, break from Justice Department norms amid many that we've seen in the second Trump term.

4:22Cleo Abram: So the congresswoman has essentially said that this is an attempt to, quote, target political enemies and weaponize federal law enforcement. And that it was, quote, the latest escalation in the president's barbs towards her. And he has spoken often about her. And the DOJ has shown itself to go after the president's perceived political enemies, i.e. former FBI Director James Comey, New York Attorney General Letitia James. We could go on and on. Is that what we're seeing here?

4:47Ryan J. Reilly: I think that's definitely the way that the representative sees this. And, I mean, there has been this broader pattern of just very odd cases against individuals that Donald Trump has singled out. So, you know, broadly, we have seen this. And in fact, you know, Pam Bondi famously, Donald Trump had sent a message to, he thought it was a message. He ended up posting it publicly that encouraged her to go after a number of his political enemies. Like, as you mentioned, it was, you know, Letitia James, Adam Schiff, you know, in that message, he said, they're all guilty as hell. Right. And so this is something that we know the president has been messaging because we've seen that we've seen that evidence.

5:26Ryan J. Reilly: He also talks about a lot of this in public and the individuals that he wants to single out. And that was, you know, what we reported at the time was part of the reason that Pam Bondi's time as attorney general came to an end. He wasn't satisfied with the speed of the cases that were being brought against individuals he wanted to single out. Because, you know, this is a president who himself faced criminal charges for what he contended was for political reasons. And now he very much so wants to see a lot of individuals that were involved in that, in those investigations, as well as just general political enemies of his singled out for prosecution.

6:04Cleo Abram: What's the administration, what's the president saying about the raid on Elhan Omar's home?

6:08Ryan J. Reilly: So he mentioned it before the House was actually raided. He had mentioned her at a rally. Afterwards, he was sort of asked about this and, you know, made some derogatory statements about her and said, you know, but said that this was, you know, this was a separate investigation that he wasn't directly involved with. But we also had the vice president, J.D. Vance, make some comments about this months ago. We also had the head of Homeland Security make comments to a conservative podcaster about this a while ago. So, you know, Ilhan Omar has, I think, long been on the radar. are. But, you know, we really don't know what the true facts here are.

6:43Ryan J. Reilly: But what they've been able to do by bringing this case so close to the election is generate a lot of headlines that Donald Trump, I think, appreciates, right? Because now it's very public that there is a criminal investigation into Ilhan Omar. No matter how that ends, that's a win, I think, for them.

7:01Cleo Abram: What happens next in this investigation?

7:03Ryan J. Reilly: You know, we don't know really what stage of the investigation they're at. Typically, I think, you know, down the line, they have her phone. Whether they're going to be able to access that is a big question. You could potentially see filings down the line from her lawyers. The other complication of this is that there's something called this speech and debate clause, which sort of protects, gives members of Congress a sort of extra layer of protection because they're not supposed to be questioned about their legislative activities. They've got a whole bunch of material that relates to her work as a member of Congress on that phone.

7:35Ryan J. Reilly: It creates this extra burden, extra thing for them to have to go through. There's going to have to be a filtering process to make sure that they're not bringing in things that are about her work as a member of Congress. It just creates this extra complication. Typically, in the past, you've had this sort of unit within the Justice Department, the Public Integrity Unit, which has been very well respected for years. It was sort of an outgrowth of Watergate that could address those questions, including those timing questions. But that unit has really been shrunk down in the Trump administration. It's down to, I think, two lawyers now.

8:09Ryan J. Reilly: It used to be, you know, dozens. And so that's, it's really been sort of sidelined from this process overall. Ryan Reilly, thank you. Thanks so much.

8:19Cleo Abram: All right, coming up. I sat down earlier this week with YouTube creator Cleo Abram. How she keeps her millions of subscribers in the know about all things science and technology. That's after a very quick break. and also while you're waiting, I'm going to take a page out of Cleo's book and ask you to like, to comment, and to subscribe to Here's the Scoop wherever you get your podcasts. I'll see you on the other side.

9:00Ryan J. Reilly: Have customers worldwide get payment details in 22 currencies so you get more of each hard-earned payment without hidden conversion fees. Be smart. Get wise business. Download the app. T's and C's apply.

9:14Cleo Abram: Call Her Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. If your money is scattered across five different apps you never open, you're not in control. Your money should move you forward. With SoFi, you get award-winning banking, investing, borrowing, and more all in one app. So you finally know where your money is. Make your first move with SoFi checking and savings, competitive APY, no account fees, a bonus when you join with eligible direct deposit, terms apply, SoFi Bank and a member FDIC. When you're ready to invest or pay off that debt, everything you need is right there.

9:50Cleo Abram: As a SoFi member, you get access to SoFi Wealth's world-class financial planners to help you know what to do next. Get started today at SoFi.com slash callherdaddy. SoFi, get your money right. This is a paid advertisement by SoFi Technologies and is not intended to be financial advice.

10:06Ryan J. Reilly: If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones, and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone and it still plays, baby. Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime.

10:39Cleo Abram: And we're back with Here's the Scoop from NBC News. So you may know my next guest, science journalist Cleo Abram from her YouTube shows, Huge If True. I needed to know the truth about Earth's most remote continent. So I've come all the way to Antarctica to show you what's really happening. And huge conversations. I'm about to interview Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg. There are not that many people with more power over what our future might look like. Her YouTube channel has almost 9 million subscribers. I spoke to Cleo Abram earlier this week about what she has learned through her travels and conversations about where we are today and where we are heading.

11:23Cleo Abram: And Cleo Abram is joining me now. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. To have you. Thanks for coming in. So you talk in your show a lot about like optimistic futures when it comes to science in general, right? And right now it doesn't necessarily feel optimistic, to say the least, right? With all the conversation, not just around science, but in the world right now. Why do you feel so optimistic about like where science is going and why has that been a focus in your show? That's exactly why I do what I do. I mean, I think that people feel really overwhelmed by the news.

12:02Cleo Abram: People feel like they, it's true. I mean, it's true for us too as journalists. Yeah, totally. And for me as a journalist, I was working at a major media company. I felt the same way. And I was looking around and I was thinking, where are the stories about the smart people working on these problems in a way that makes me feel correctly, like I can be part of whatever the solution is. I can be part of this future going right. I really believe in other people. I think that when people see visions of better futures, they go and help build them. And it's not up to me to decide what exactly that vision looks like, But it is my job as a journalist to present the vision of what that could be by talking to the smartest people in those fields and by exploring what could go wrong, what dark paths could we go down to show people how a version of this could go right so that they can first decide for themselves what they think about that vision.

13:01Cleo Abram: I think the world would be much better off if more people saw the visions more clearly that the most important people in science and tech are leading us toward. And then second, so that they can decide how they might contribute. I want to talk to you about AI because you've been having these huge conversations with leaders in AI. You talked to Jensen Wong from NVIDIA. You've spoken to Sam Altman of OpenAI. You've spoken to Mark Zuckerberg as well, right? There's a lot of anxiety around AI right now, right? A lot of AI doomerism. And it goes back to the conversation that you and I were having earlier is like, do we know enough about what is going on around us to understand that maybe potentially it could help us and not hurt us, right?

13:45Cleo Abram: You spoke to Alexander Wang, who's the chief AI officer for Meta. They just came out with Muse, which is represented by this cute, cuddly, white, stuffy thing, right? What do you use Muse for? Muse represents, I think, an important change from chatbots, which a lot of us are familiar with. Basically glorified Google. This is talking to any AI that's answering your questions just in a chat. Sure. Versus I'm asking a tool to actually go out and do something. Book an appointment. Personal assistant. A personal assistant, yes. But in many cases, this can be for things that are much more complicated than book a restaurant reservation.

14:24Cleo Abram: These can be navigating healthcare, navigating, you know, government agencies, like trying to do things that have in many places been called a time tax on people. So how can I take that off your eye if I was the AI? Take that off your plate. If you were the Muse, yeah. So the actual interface right now for Muse, but also for other tools that I know are in development from other companies, is a sort of texting chat. There's a competitor called Instinct that is literally in your texting. Muse is in its own app. You might expect similar kinds of iterations. You tell it via text or via voice to do a task, and then it tries to go do that task.

15:03Cleo Abram: It depends on how complex the task and how clear the outcome is. And whether or not that agency allows an AI operative to work on your behalf. Amazon is now blocking Muse, which is an interesting conversation because Amazon has an advertising business. And so you can imagine why an AI that is designed to go straight to something is not getting swayed by advertising. I don't know how to feel about the idea that I need to be buying things myself because I'm persuadable by advertising, right? So now you have an interesting dynamic. I think that what we're going to see more of is this, what they're calling them as agents.

15:40Cleo Abram: And an agent as compared to a chatbot is something that can go do something for you. Those have existed before. This is not new. but the interface has been fairly complicated. I think the hardest thing, especially when it comes to these tech leaders, is like they have an obvious conflict of interest, right? So like, this is the future that I want to build. Alexander Wang, this is the future I want to build, right? Here's Muse. Yeah. But Alexander Wang has a real interest in making sure that you love Muse, right? Yes. So like, how do you reconcile their conflict of interest with like your optimistic sensibility of what you feel like AI is bringing?

16:16Cleo Abram: Optimism is not the same as positivity. Okay. So optimism requires going down the rabbit holes of how this might go wrong in order to help it go right. So in the conversation with Alex, for example, what is most important is to understand both the risks of Muse, but also to use Muse as an example of the bigger picture of AI, right? So we're going to get into regulation in a second, but I'm pretending I'm interviewing you as Alex. The first level is data privacy between you and Meta. This is, you know, when you download a tool like Muse or any AI tool, again, this is writ large, you need to have a sense of how they're going to be using that data.

16:57Cleo Abram: And you need to know how is your relationship with Meta safe, but also can hackers get that information? And in many countries, can governments get that information? Why and why not? The second level is what they call internally discretion. And I would say we make up a lot of words to talk about new technologies. Discretion basically refers to if I am using Muse or any AI tool for a task that I think it can do well. And I've chosen to be comfortable with a certain amount of sharing of information in order for it to do that task. Like I want it to make a doctor's appointment for my grandmother with a hard-to-get doctor.

17:37Cleo Abram: Right. And it's navigating this for me. So it goes out and it tries to find a doctor's appointment and it can't. It's really important to me that it then doesn't, on a base level, email the doctor a hundred times. Email everyone the doctor works with. Unless you're very sick. Bribe the doctor. Right, so like. Blackmail the doctor. So that's what. Right, acts on your behalf with like high moral standards. Yes. So with that in mind, what lessons can be applied to the development of AI that we have learned from like the social media, the dawn of social media, right? because we have seen a lot of harm be done by social media, that I think as we look ahead to the development of AI and the dawn of AI, I think a lot of folks are wondering, are we going down the same path?

18:20Cleo Abram: I'm very interested in regulation here. I mean, even among the people that I have spoken to, they are very interested in the regulations that might be coming. So much of the conversation to me seems to be, should we or should we not regulate AI? Yeah. Like, that word means so many different things and is being applied to so many different technologies right now. So what do we actually mean by that? Well, you can think about a spectrum between things that are approved beforehand in their design and assessed on an ongoing basis by government agencies versus things that are assessed afterward only for danger or only when they harm people.

18:57Cleo Abram: You know, supplements are on the farthest end of assessed afterward. But on the farthest end of assessed beforehand, you have, you know, the NRC at nuclear plants assessing their design and also having people on site. Somewhere down in the middle, you have things like planes or drugs where the FAA or the FDA approved these things before they ever reach a consumer. And then they check them on an ongoing basis. Where do we think AI falls? That's a much richer conversation. Now we can begin to offer people the opportunity to decide what do you think it's like. Yeah, that's difficult, though, considering the fact that everyone's got to really understand what's actually going on to make that assessment.

19:34To bring this back down to Earth for a moment, will teleportation ever become reality?

19:42Cleo Abram: Yes, amazing. Okay, I have no idea. I hope so. The teleportation in Star Trek was one of my favorite tech ideas, and I do think that sci-fi often shows us what's possible. The leader of, I believe it was Nokia, when they created the first flip phone, said that they were inspired by the Star Trek communicator. So I'm not saying the same thing could happen. I don't know any of the science about teleportation, but I would hope so. Here's hoping. Here's hoping. Yeah, exactly. Cleo Abram, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. We're going to take a very quick break. And when we are back, we've got new details on the incident between Kelly Clarkson and the Brooklyn Toy Shop Art of Play.

20:25Cleo Abram: think your mind is made up? Well, think again.

20:32Ryan J. Reilly: This message comes from Wise Business, the only account your business needs to scale globally. You're building a business with global ambitions, but hidden fees are eating into your margins. With Wise Business, you can pay overseas suppliers without exchange rate markups. Have customers worldwide get payment details in 22 currencies so you get more of each hard-earned payment without hidden conversion fees. Be smart. Get wise business. Download the app. T's and C's apply.

21:02Cleo Abram: Call Her Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. If your money is scattered across five different apps you never open, you're not in control. Your money should move you forward. With SoFi, you get award-winning banking, investing, borrowing, and more all-in-one apps, so you finally know where your money is. make your first move with SoFi checking and savings, competitive APY, no account fees, a bonus when you join with eligible direct deposit, terms apply, SoFi bank and a member FDIC when you're ready to invest or pay off that debt. Everything you need is right there.

21:38Cleo Abram: As a SoFi member, you get access to SoFi Wealth's world-class financial planners to help you know what to do next. Get started today at SoFi.com slash callherdaddy. SoFi, get your money right. This is a paid advertisement by SoFi Technologies and is not intended to be financial advice. Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get backroom play, and there's like a ton more in there.

22:12Cleo Abram: You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

22:27Cleo Abram: And we're back with Here's the Scoop from NBC News. So if you have spent any time on social media this week, then you have probably heard about this controversy surrounding Kelly Clarkson and the Brooklyn Novelty Shop Art of Play and a strange moment involving an animatronic bird, which has somehow gone completely viral. So for more on what really happened and why the story has captured so much attention. I want to bring in someone who went in person to Art of Play this week. You went to the scene. I went to Brooklyn. NBC News Entertainment correspondent, Chloe Malas. So I think a lot of listeners probably know or have seen in their feed at one point kind of what is happening.

23:07Cleo Abram: But if you could start off with what Kelly Clarkson is saying has happened here and then how that compares to what Art of Play is saying happened. Sure. So Kelly Clarkson was shopping over the weekend with her son. I feel like we're gossiping. Okay, go ahead. So Kelly Clarkson was shopping over the weekend with her son, and she's in Brooklyn, goes into Art of Play, which is a curiosity shop, which what does that even mean? I didn't know what that meant until I actually went and saw it in person for myself. Really cool art pieces and books and jigsaw puzzles and kaleidoscopes and stuff that like young teens would love and maybe my children would love.

23:46Cleo Abram: And then some expensive items in there as well that are maybe one of a kind commissioned pieces from artists. And yes, a mechanical animatronic bird on the wall with a little price tag that said$15 ,000 next to it. So Kelly is in there shopping and she takes to social media, whether it's that day or the next day, and says something along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing, I was out shopping inside Art of Play, the store in Brooklyn, and I inquired about purchasing the mechanical bird. and I was looked at as if I couldn't afford it. It was a pretty woman moment. Despite there being a$15 ,000 price tag right next to it, I was told that the bird was not for sale and offered something comparable that would fit my price range.

24:38Cleo Abram: And she basically said, big mistake, sort of like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. When she went on her shopping spree. And she says that, you know, she's very disappointed. But I don't think what any of us realized was going to happen next was the fact that Art of Play, the store, they clapped back on social media and they were like, that is not what happened. This bird is not for sale. It's part of like a show that we do in the store. Her name's Molly. The bird is a name. And we were not rude to you, essentially. Kelly decides to respond to the response and say, you guys are liars. That is not what happened.

25:20Cleo Abram: So Kelly, by the way, has not responded to multiple requests for comment from NBC News. You went to Art of Play. I had to. Right. You had to understand what this shop of curiosity may be like. What does it offer? I need to see Molly. Is the bird for sale? It's for sale. It's for sale? But not for 15 ,000. Okay. Tell more. It's for sale for 15 million. What? Yes. So the store came out and said that it was not for sale and that they did offer her a different type of mechanical bird and that she didn't stay long enough in the store to even hear about it. And they then said that the bird is now for sale for$15 million.

26:02Cleo Abram: And I wanted to go down and see this bird that is so expensive myself. Did they change it to$15 million? They did change it to$15 million. Because it's now being talked about by Kelly Clarkson? Exactly. And the store was packed. I mean, so many people were in there who wanted to get a glimpse of the mechanical bird who also live in the area, who had been following the drama. And other people who were tourists who happened to be in town who made their way to Brooklyn just so that they could see it in person for themselves because the story has really taken on wings of its own. Oh, look at that.

26:34Cleo Abram: Have you been waiting to drop that one? The story is not flying away anytime soon. Did the shop owner say anything to you about it? The shop owner is just not talking about it. He seems very stressed, not happy with the attention. He did an interview with USA Today in which he said that they've gotten a lot of negative publicity because of this. And he also claimed in the report that there are people being doxed and employees that are receiving death threats and neighbors of his on the street that are going through a difficult time because of this as well. Why do you think people are coming for it?

27:07Cleo Abram: Like, what is it? What is it about this story that's drawing so many people? So I think the fact that— Because I have to say, I've been also following it from the beginning. Like, I'm like, what is going on? Right. I don't even know why I'm so invested in it. I think the reason that people are so invested in this is, first of all, it's Kelly Clarkson. We've grown up with Kelly from her days on American Idol to now. And she's not a queen of controversy. She's not somebody that's ever in the headlines for anything negative. She's pretty much somebody that's low-key, focuses on her craft, and, you know, she's had some heartache over the last couple of years with the loss of her ex-husband.

27:43Cleo Abram: And I just think that overall, people all sort of agree on Kelly Clarkson. I just don't think she's a polarizing person. So to have her go out there on social media and do something that is just so atypical of her personality and to be so strong about it, I think that caught people's attention. And I think that it's an easy story to distract many people from the real stories and the very serious things that are going on in the world. And that was what some of the people told me on the street yesterday when I did those little man-on-the-street interviews, where some people said, you know what? It's a great distraction of a story of something that's quite petty while there are so many serious things going on in the Middle East and here at home in our own country.

28:25Cleo Abram: Chloe Malas, thank you. Always here with the hard-hitting stuff.

28:31Cleo Abram: All right, that is going to do it for us. Here's the scoop from NBC News. I'm Yasmin Basugin. We'll be back tomorrow with whatever the day may bring. And if you like what you heard, subscribe. Remember to get your podcast. And you can also subscribe to our daily newsletter, The Inside Scoop. It is a deeper dive on the main stories of the day that comes out every weeknight straight to your inbox. You can sign up for The Inside Scoop as part of our paid subscription at NBCnews.com. We'll see you tomorrow.

29:34Ryan J. Reilly: Transcription by CastingWords a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tearthepaperceiling.org Brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.