The Business of Watches [020] Doxa CEO Jan Edocs

24:32Hodinkee Host:Listen, it's also for us being a long time, there's still a lot of people and consumer discovering Doxa. don't make the mistake because you have seen it now for five years to run too fast we can play with materials uh it's a bit more limited because we need to fulfill salt water acceptance sure and there's still a lot of people who are entering into the doxa world we're also followed but it's not that an end consumer runs into a retail store first time he sees doxa that everyone right away is buying and more and more like we increasing our business also despite now the difficult times of last year certain other we still had a growth last year what kind of growth did you experience

25:15Jan Edocs:last year was very difficult yes but for us it's steadily also this year despite we still expect

25:20Hodinkee Host:the growth five to ten percent so it's not big jumps we do it also has to do that we also said No, I could have maybe two years ago a much larger growth. And then maybe I would have overflowed the market with products. Then maybe last year I would have a minus. This year I was struggling with discount business because I have too much watches in the market, which I can't control. So, step by step.

25:45Jan Edocs:Yeah. And can you give us a sort of ballpark figure, as you say, in terms of your production? How many watches you're making?

25:52Hodinkee Host:and you know yeah making watches is one question all the time but how much do you sell so last year we sold over 10 000 sub watches globally and also there in number of point of sales i think by now we reached 200 point of sales last five years target is very clear in we want to further raise our presence globally also new markets will raise the business to 350 point of sales exclusively and then we stick to it and by when do you hope to be at 350 so i think now after five years and a half the next 150 this will not last another five years right i think in two three years we will be there and also in regard of the interest now economically especially the The U.S.

26:45Hodinkee Host:for us as being one of our key market, challenging times. But this will not stop our global development. Again, step by step and then totally, Doxa, as a family-owned business, we can go up to 30 ,000 pieces. And then also, hey, this business we want to control. And it's not to make the mistake then to become too large, to become into challenges which then fashion brands have. then it gets difficult to control. And I think today also in big cities, it's not part of the strategy that we want to be on every corner. And this is very much appreciated by the retailers also. So mother brands, they just kill retail, they do it by their own or whatever.

27:32Hodinkee Host:And I have a complete different view on that. I mean, it needs retail business. I can never talk the local language globally. I mean, even though in the US, I think the people act differently in San Francisco than in Miami, the end consumer is different. Just imagine different cultures in India, in Japan. And there's still a lot of end consumers staying loyal to family businesses. And family businesses doesn't mean just us as a brand owner. It's also the retailer as an owner. And they trust these people. And this, and if I would open up just my own boutiques, then you have your own staff, but they jump as employees.

28:19Jan Edocs:So that's, yeah, that's not, you don't own any retail and that's not part of the...

28:25Hodinkee Host:No, maybe one day in a joint venture, first question to open up a boutique in regard because the business is there, but I would never do that alone.

28:35Jan Edocs:Never. Yeah, absolutely. It's not your core competency. No. So, I mean, basically, I should think, though, you know, pretty much anywhere, if I want to buy a Doxer watch, I can buy one online. But in that retail space, where does the brand position itself within that showroom? And how does it complement and work with the other brands?

28:57Hodinkee Host:So first of all, it's 70 % of our reach of the 200 is premium retailers, not mentioning brands, but the top brands. And Doxa is all the time more presented more on retail onwards where high-end brands are sold. So we are in this category more the first price range than to be in a fashion brand store where Doxa is the most expensive. our end consumer appreciates stocks are because of the dna factor with our cushion shape case even though you like it or you don't like it and the big brands call it the premium brands not everyone still but some of them they have also a strong dna factor they're much more costly sometimes the end consumer walks into that retail store would like to purchase one of those watches then first he needs to know is he allowed to get the watch if he's allowed then he needs to make a down payment and he is lucky gets a watch in one year's time or more maybe today it's changing a little bit but still waiting time so then consumer is frustrated he's not walking out with a watch and on top of it then even though they heard about dogs or not the salesperson look this is something very justified in our store as a brand, unique, not trying to please everyone.

30:26And if the person, the end consumer is open to beach, to water, in that many aspects, he reads, then he likes DNA factor, then he's asking how much?

30:42Hodinkee Host:1 ,500. The quality is there. This was all the time a key factor of Doxa. You get a lot of watch for a good, decent retail price. And then what we learn now is that Doxa becomes effectively the watch for during the day. Because even though he would have walked out with expensive premium watch, he will never wear this in the afternoon going to the beach.

31:05Jan Edocs:For some people, absolutely. It's a much more practical piece of wristwear and at a price point that people can feel comfortable with. We've seen so many brands be revived. I mean, in a way, Doxa was revived like many others. Why would you submit and argue that it stands out against all these other brand revivals that we've seen? And we continue to see. I mean, do you think there's too much of this? Do you think the market can absorb all this? And why Doxa?

31:38Hodinkee Host:I cannot talk for the others. What is felt very fast, it's a real history. And it doesn't stop. Doxa made it proofs decades ago already. So for new brands, whatever their strategy is, but we have solid proofs and we have a DNA. In my point of view, not many brands you can recognize on the wrist when someone is sitting on the next table. Doxa, you recognize immediately. With some brands, you need to read the brand name before knowing which brand it is.

32:13Jan Edocs:It has that recognizability. which is a rare attribute and something that's quite valuable.

32:20Hodinkee Host:Not many brands have. And then again, to stay in a certain size, to stay exclusive, to stay warm, to stay colorful, to stay playful, not to increase prices, to go into a different price range, to make maybe a first proof of success. Now I'm here, now I start to have stainless steel watches for$5 ,000, then I go to$7 ,000, then to$9 ,000. That will not happen with Doxa. We stay just loyal to our DNA, not just visually, also conceptually. And still a long way to go. And then sometimes I have a saying, I rather prefer to be in the top three of the second league than to be the last in the first league.

33:02Hodinkee Host:That's why our content was there. And we as a family, most probably or never, we will fly around with private jets and all this. But, you know, we don't need to. We're happy. and we're not in an investment period, Doxa already creates benefits. And some people thought, oh, this is great where you go and all this. This costs money. How long is your investment? I said, no, no investment. And if you make a calculation with 50 % before when we started with 70 % online where we grabbed the full retail margin, if you would analyze commercially the company Doxa, we must be one of the brands with that mix of online being fair, not over-distributing, were not so bad in the revenues at the end of the day.

33:50Hodinkee Host:Right, right.

33:51Jan Edocs:And yeah, I mean, obviously the margin selling direct to consumer, you get to keep whether it be that 30 % to 40 % margin that you'd be giving to the retailer. So it works when you can do it. But yes, as you say, the issue is, you know, People don't get to see the watches, try their watches, but that's why now you're expanding the retail side. And so we'll see, as you say, you expect to get to 350 points of sale within the next five years. How many people work for Doxa? Do you have the traditional departments like other big watch brands? Do you have watchmakers here? You have designers? Do you have people in Heritage that are finding those great stories like the Doxa Army and those kind of things?

34:42Hodinkee Host:This is all in-house. As you can see, HQ totally now globally were at 50 people, but I include also the subsidiaries. Here, the classical departments, as I think every watch brand has. We have our own designers, the watchmakers, every sub is assembled in-house here. sales department it's all here nicely encountered by as you can see another brand which is really known and very happy to be here and for me Beale is one of the cradle of the Swiss watchmaking it's a

35:20Jan Edocs:we have a big neighbor next door

35:21Hodinkee Host:yes very close and historically very linked also so yeah and so this is also Also a size of company which you can control. Absolutely. Absolutely.

35:33Jan Edocs:And, you know, what we've seen from even just over the last five years, there's been quite a cycle in the Swiss luxury watch industry. And what we've seen is the other brands have, you know, been raising prices. Some have been innovating and creating new product, but generally the way to grow revenue has been to raise prices. Talk about your approach to that kind of strategy and what we've seen from docs on that front.

36:06Hodinkee Host:I think our answer is the last five years, we only made once a light price increase, just once in five years. Maybe another one will follow soon, but for other reasons in a certain market, this will also not be extensively. Because my point of view, everything what you write down on paper, a paper is silent. everything runs on the paper but you need to understand the market and i think if you go and you raise your price on constant basis for a stainless steel watch and you do this for five years your watch is 50 more expensive so and there's limits and as a brand whoever you you you need to understand where you are and uh people ask us about competitors i don't see a direct competitor for dogs about i see the competition on the retail where the brand is positioned i I understand that from a certain moment on, from$5 ,000,$7 ,000,$10 ,000, you talk a different language of the end consumer.

37:04Hodinkee Host:And be respectful, even though you have an end consumer giving you$1 ,000 out of his pocket. Be respectful. And that doesn't mean that in five years he's willing to spend$10 ,000. And for watches for$10 ,000, you need to justify it goes into the aspect of movement. it has to do with the marketing budget big brands have they participate the dream factor becomes

37:30Jan Edocs:different docs are still niche yes and i mean how you know comparatively how do you do marketing how do you how much do you spend on marketing um you know i think you're it'd be fair to say you're taking a different approach than some of the big brands to that obviously as well oh

37:47Hodinkee Host:So definitely this we have. And then we go back to the online, how we analyze our sales, how we have in agreement with the end consumer, of course, we collect the databases. There, every market is different. And then we start to make a copy profiling. And it doesn't mean that you find all the time the end consumer if you spend some money into a watch magazine. Not at all. Talk about that.

38:11Jan Edocs:I mean, what are the most sort of diverse or surprising things you found from that data that you get through your customers and their purchases and the information that they share to you.

38:21Hodinkee Host:So you need, that's why how we build up, we don't have one platform. You cannot have one platform because it's different. You need to go into every single market. The one, I cannot disclose everything, but it has to do that the approach to water is completely different in China, for example, where we're not in, or in India, compared to the people living in Miami. Of course. Logical. The approach, you can ask yourself certain people, certain nationalities when you go on holidays, the moment they go to the beach, they jump into the water. But that's not the case everywhere. So different relationships.

38:59Hodinkee Host:Different relationships. So their decision, when you approach a market with a dive watch in certain markets, you turn this more into a sports watch. You turn it more into a direction of desk diving. Don't try to see that you communicate or where you invest your money. It has to do with direct diving because the people don't dive. Sure. In certain markets. So, and there it starts. I don't think the global audience is the same. No.

39:34Jan Edocs:Exactly. And in terms of your audience, the U.S. is your biggest market? Can you, you know, how big is the U.S. for you? And then we can talk about, you know, how you're seeing and feeling the market at the moment.

39:48Hodinkee Host:So the U.S. by its own represents over 35%. It's very open, also the next generation. I think also in the U.S., I mean, it's difficult to ask really the history, but sometimes they fill up. And still today, I think in the U.S. every year we have over 50 % first-time buyers in Doxa.

40:10Jan Edocs:Interesting. So over half of the buyers of one of your watches first time that they've bought a Doxa.

40:16Hodinkee Host:And also in the U.S., it's, personally, I appreciate the U.S. It's colorful. It's playful. It's a consumer market. They're open to new. And in the U.S., there's a lot of water.

40:30Jan Edocs:There certainly is. And various ways for people to interact. Absolutely. And so, you know, we are basically right in the middle of 2025. It has been a very volatile time. for the market. I mean, tell me how you experienced, first of all, you know, your brand, dive watch focused, entry level priced between a thousand and 5 ,000 francs. How did you experience the boom that came, you know, in the post COVID era and then the pullback that came a couple, you know, a year and a half, two years later from that, considering your positioning and your product and the way you distribute and sell? Did you feel it more?

41:16Jan Edocs:Did you feel it less? Talk about that.

41:18Hodinkee Host:At the end, that's why. Until now, no pullback. Every year, a growth. But again, a decent, moderate growth, a planned growth. As I mentioned before, we could have two, three years ago the boom. We said more no than yes. Not to render ourselves so important, but we knew some retailers, They were really annoyed. And who do you think you are? And to give you an example, also in the Middle East, there was one very esteemed market we know well. I told them, no, you need to wait one more year. But the 1st of May, I think it was 2023, we opened up Dubai, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, every market the same day.

42:03Hodinkee Host:Then, oh, that's not a coincidence. So it's not that we wait and just everyone is welcome to walks in and to place an order. So that's why the growth was moderate. So no pullback. Now this year, of course, with the announcement of the changes, will there be a pullback in all this? What is different here is not in our hands. And it's still today where we expect further updates. That makes it, of course, much more difficult. But even though from now on in the U.S., we didn't raise our pricing a penny.

42:36Jan Edocs:Even after the tariff announcement?

42:38Hodinkee Host:And this one we swallow.

42:40Jan Edocs:So tell me how you did that. Did you change any terms with retailers? No, nothing.

42:45Hodinkee Host:Just no change. Interesting. No panic, which was very much appreciated. Of course, this has limits. And I think the combination now, it is not just a question of tariffs. It's what puts us now more under a need of move is the dollar. And so both together, I know that in the U.S. there will be a price increase. because both together it becomes now too substantial. We have the benefit that we never raised the price or just one light of, I think, 3%, 4%.

43:17Jan Edocs:When did you do that?

43:19Hodinkee Host:This was, I think, two years ago. Two years ago, yeah. In the middle. But it has more to do because suppliers, they raised the price here in Switzerland. So I said, listen, if my movement costs me 15 % more, not that I raised 15%. Everyone understood. It's still a very aggressive retail price for the watch you get. And now here we just wait, but in the first range, no panic. Follow the market. Because once you decide, you can't go back. There's limits. And once you overstep limits, and the Swiss watch industry is very Christ-proven. Very Christ-proven.

43:59Jan Edocs:Talk about that, how the Swiss industry has dealt with many crises in the past and it will continue to do so and why it's able to do that yeah because

44:10Hodinkee Host:at the end of the day it's let's assume the swiss watch industry during the day were competitors from eight to five but please believe me if there's a need after five o 'clock the people

44:23Jan Edocs:sit together and then you're not competitors anymore and so the viability of the industry is sort of paramount for everyone and, you know, for everyone collectively indeed. And, you know, where does Doxa then fit into that collective idea of the Swiss industry and how do you, you know, both benefit and contribute to that, you know, collective business project?

44:51Hodinkee Host:So the collective business project, first of all, what happened all the time already. I mean, despite when you look here in Beale, with the suburbs where up to 100 ,000 people living here, many people live and make their money in the watch industry. Already before now all this, we are connected. If we have an international customer, I can call a CEO from another brand to ask him, oh, listen, this customer wants to work with us. Is he a good payer? The same we do. rather i'll support my neighbor's business to be well together than to support someone else who's not my mate neighbor so of course we help and what could this be the shifting then still every brand buys only to think how far they have the capability financially but the the people will stick together we do already it's not that everyone is waiting and then say oh let's stick together after it happened already.

45:51Jan Edocs:It's well established and it's the way that it works. Indeed. And, you know, it was interesting, you're talking about launching in the Middle East with retailers, but each market is different. And you, you know, you sort of, you know, created a few watches, I think for that market that were somewhat different, right? I mean, they had, you know, they had, they had stones on them. Yeah. So, I mean, talk a bit about that. I mean, what you learned about that market and then why you would you know create a slightly different product that seemed perhaps maybe not within the dna of of docs it's absolutely the dna but just in a different

46:28Hodinkee Host:way i had then when we launched you know the 200t with diamonds we still fulfill the functionality of a diver's watch with the three stones technically you you could then i said uh Some collectors were, what is this? Why are you doing this? Listen, there's other brands right away in 71, very known brands. And in the Middle East, you find every kind of watch with diamonds. The market is different here because there you have end consumers, they love the brand, but they just don't buy a watch for 2000. So it is what it is. They don't buy a Fiat. The minimum they spend for a car is a certain price.

47:08Hodinkee Host:then also that aspect of don't want to call it show off but the approach of luxury even though in the sports segment it's taken differently than maybe in other cultures and then also when we launched two years ago we made our uh analyzes for diving in the middle east and then we shifted it into a boat of pearl diving so it's in the water but the meaning is different it hasn't less to do with fishes but the pearl diving is big so pearls is shiny so and at the end of the day when you launch something for a local market as long as it sticks to the dni for me this is by far justified when there's a certain demand from end consumers yeah can are there any examples of

47:57Jan Edocs:other markets where you've done you know sort of special tweaks or or additions or changes um so

48:04Hodinkee Host:So we knew at the time already when we started with the carbon, that this was also for very much beloved in the Middle East, also for pricing and for innovation.

48:15Jan Edocs:So a similar case with your carbon case, it's certainly aiming at that market.

48:22Hodinkee Host:Yeah, and it's also the carbon by its own. Me personally, I also really admire it, also wearing it during the day in the office. It's very light. Right. And it represents this fact that I told to play with material today, what you couldn't do 50 years ago. Yes. Yes. So that's an innovational part also. This justifies for a diver's watch. It fulfills the duties all, but it's something more modern. So not just to open up history booklets, just to copy paste what has been done 50 years ago.

49:00Jan Edocs:Yeah. Yeah. And how has your average selling price changed, if at all, in the past, say, three years? I mean, obviously, a carbon case watch is more expensive.

49:11Hodinkee Host:Has that changed much? No. No. As I said, in the last five years, one light price increase, no changes technically.

49:18Jan Edocs:But I just wonder if product mix, you know, has changed a lot too, that would then change that average price.

49:25Hodinkee Host:I know, so what we started, we started the one, I think the core range from 1 ,000 to 3 ,000, this is where Doxa came from. But then certain markets, then like the carton piece, then we launched, I mean, the T-Graph limited edition 300 with a hindwinding movement, original movement from 71. This is something you stick, but with this you can play. This is in the water, around the water. It's still a diver's watch. and there's then certain collectors who appreciate that additional added value, as I said, innovation, and there you can play justified. Right, for sure.

50:05Jan Edocs:And so, you know, the uncertainty of the tariffs aside, where do you see the luxury watch market going and your place in it? Do you think, you know, generally we've evened out after that boom and that huge surge in demand and that, you know, you can kind of, you will continue to sort of hopefully grow customers? Or do you see it as a more difficult time to sell a watch? And then how do you intend to compete in that, you know, in that fight to sell somebody a new watch?

50:39Hodinkee Host:So first of all, I don't consider that dog size in the real luxury segment. Again, I'm a huge supporter of the Swiss watch industry by its own, and we've seen it. we know now in in so-called crisis or where there's a a lot of rain falling into your business segment there's one saying it is not when the sun is shining for everyone that you can really prove how good you are you need to prove yourself when training and this the most in the swiss watch industry are capable and we know that that the first the first approach is to buy a new watch in a certain price segment even down the luxury is maybe not the first desirable need to have item because people already have watches so maybe the circle of where the business goes down that period may have a certain length But if this period is over, it will come back over proportionally.

51:48And has been all the time the same. Now here, the question is for how long?

51:54Hodinkee Host:One year? Two years? Four years? Five years? And the commercial flow by its own was already the market maybe overheated because the people overloaded the market with watches in every segment. I think that was the main problem. There was too many merchandise out there. We as a niche were too small to be part of a change of big numbers. And we sneak through in our second league, creating less attention. But what I see is now that the market gets cleaned up. You told me everywhere new brands are starting. My personal vision is we won't see many more new brands arriving. We see more. Now the new brands, they need to prove themselves.

52:41during rain let's wait for this i wish them good luck yeah but technically a new watch is not now

52:48Hodinkee Host:the item which you absolutely need when people feel uncertainty in terms of your offering and

52:54Jan Edocs:and putting yourself out there do you intend to sort of you know double down on the value aspect of your product or do you intend to you know maybe raise prices and and do less volume i mean And, you know, the segment that you're in is the most challenging for the industry as a whole. We see through statistics, obviously, from the Swiss watch experts. It is challenged.

53:21Hodinkee Host:It is challenged for the others. So, first of all, we have no need to give any approach to downsize anything. And again, in statistics, yes. but exactly technically what doxa is doing the approach we're on the price range but our distribution there we we handle it as a high-end brand we're not acting like in that price range no in that price range people have two three hundred point of sales in the u.s only they have two thousand point of sales globally in the price range so that doesn't mean because in my price range i live the same where is because i don't have discounts and if you download it the last two years and you sold to everyone yeah of course you have now massive problems because you find online your watch with 40 50 off then consumer walks to a retailer shows the iphone i also want to have fully the retailer loses his full margin he needs to discount off he's not selling so this is a full circle which then again other brands at price range just overloaded the market.

54:29Hodinkee Host:That's my opinion.

54:31Jan Edocs:Interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, that to me seems like such a key element of your business because you are very much online, but that is very controlled in terms of pricing. And, you know, as you increase the number of retailers, but having control over that, over that price and preventing discounting is, is, is that's key.

54:54Hodinkee Host:Yeah. And that's again, it's again how you prove yourself in training and if you can steep as a brand keep your prices up it's not so complex indeed and and when it comes to production and you know how much

55:09Jan Edocs:how much you produce how flexible are you um how reactive are you to demand or orders or you know tell me how that works and then i'm interested in what role walca plays in you know the whole business the so first for walca the private label business

55:29Hodinkee Host:that was not the same what it used to be of course but we're still active and of course we're not disclosing for whom we still produce watches because it's like walca's like a private bank you're not going out who's your customer but once i said we know producing watches right yeah since what now 50 years and we are very flexible what what does that mean to be i mean compare that

55:54Jan Edocs:to you know would say some other big manufacturers and and what it means to be flexible in the one in

55:59Hodinkee Host:in watch production flexible means that you have very tied up strong relationships with suppliers with suppliers on the short term i have a overestimated increase in a certain product line they'll put me the machine in for us which maybe do not for everyone and then of course i'm not ordering still the same quantity as the big ones but our quantity is not so small either it doesn't matter we were there feeding them since over 40 years now i think we're very good payers you know it's just that's the flexibility it's a question of relationship of trust which i carry a lot on words, as we mentioned before, to retailers, but also to the suppliers.

56:47Jan Edocs:And can you talk about, I mean, you know, obviously there are lots of suppliers here in Switzerland who also have operations in Asia and, you know, parts of components of Swiss watches, you know, we know the rules. So, you know, in order to compete in this price segment, I mean, give us a general idea of, you know, there are obviously components of the watch that are made in Asia. You obviously qualify as Swiss made. So yeah, talk about, you know, has that changed a lot and what that sort of looks like?

57:21Hodinkee Host:In the last five years, you may add overall, Switzerland, you had light price increases in regard to inflation. But it was moderate. It said, again, we go back to the Swiss watch industry. not stupid to try to to to uh to put too much again on paper to force your lawyer customers also also of our movement supplier very nice collaboration and everyone knows how to play the game on the supplier side now certain supplies they may suffer i think this is more in the luxury segmentation where now the demand goes down smaller companies but that wasn't that there was no significant price increase general supplier side the last five years and i don't and i even don't expect it also for the future i think it would not be the moment to do so but have you

58:19Jan Edocs:figured you know and uh i guess my question is have you figured out ways to reduce the costs of your components or and and and might that have been more uh utilizing you know components from other countries or it's not less a component it's how you build up yourself

58:37Hodinkee Host:logistically when i see out too much that our metal bracelets if you see i have different folding clasps but in two three lines i have the same metal bracelet yeah yeah so it is how logistically you you you customize that one one spare part is not just used for one product line

59:01Jan Edocs:of course yeah exactly but i mean you know what everyone has told me i mean you know bracelets are one of the the sort of choke points in terms of swiss production to do anything at all affordable the capacity just isn't here anymore so i would presume that your

59:17Hodinkee Host:bracelets are made in asian i would not just quote now asia there's a very interesting very interesting path to follow that i would call it europe maybe not switzerland but europe is increasing and there's one country increasing over rationally it's portugal for the for the watch industry yes it starts when you go on support outside i tell maybe this becomes the new shenzhen in europe in five ten years for the watch industry it's a lot of investment there That's interesting.

59:47Jan Edocs:And so this is an area, maybe there's some suppliers there that you're using more and more. What kind of components are you able to source now from here in Europe?

59:58Hodinkee Host:It's very open-minded by itself. It's very close by to visit. It's a nice place to visit too. It's a nice space and it doesn't cost me potentially when the global world goes completely crazy. Someone can close me a canal and my boat is not arriving anymore. I need to put everything on the plane, which is very costly. Is the plane still allowed to land, to fly? We lived many things the last five years. I think the industry, not only the Swiss watch industry, there's a way going back to Europe. Massively.

1:00:40Jan Edocs:Indeed. You know, in certain manufacturer sectors, we've seen things come back to Europe, come back to the United States. And do you think that is a trend in some cases? Specifically, what kind of things?

1:00:55Hodinkee Host:You mentioned a metal bracelet. Yeah. Exactly there, yeah. Interesting. Or marketing material. We think we have all our display. Nothing is done in Asia anymore. All in Portugal.

1:01:10Jan Edocs:That's very interesting. And as you say, it's closer culture-wise, and they're developing the expertise and ability.

1:01:22Hodinkee Host:It's important that the people are open to work. And for us, it's closer. and I'm carrying much less risk. I can just send a truck and in 24 hours, the merchandise is here. Right, right. Interesting.

1:01:39Jan Edocs:And is there anything more you can tell us about Ralka and like what they do? I mean, what does it mean to be a white label manufacturer? And that is, you know, that business, as you said, has certainly changed. I mean, you know, it's not the same, you know, kind of business, but is it, an important part of the story of Doxa and the way it can operate. I think in the family,

1:02:04Hodinkee Host:it was important because still today now, we're not making the first price range privately. This is nothing we are not interested in and we don't even accept. And now in the medium to the high end, we have, and it's really, we're taking it as, not at all to be arrogant, but we choose our customers. We have a lot of dreamers outside. They come just the one shot and most likely they sometimes have no clue about the watchmaking. Then we know anyhow, when I smell a failure, then why should I do? And in private label, you're not generating the real income with a first order. That brand should work repetitively, come back on the same styles and all this.

1:02:50Hodinkee Host:In earlier days, it was really a question of volume. because certain people didn't have any bridge to to asia now today everyone can go to asia if he wants and it doesn't need to be to have someone in between in switzerland to leave some additional margins but on the same time the know-how we saw some people coming back they tried they could do by their own with big big failures and so this is just a nice to have like a private bank okay And sometimes we'll really ask, please, please do so. I will not allow them. Now we see an increase there because people would like to be linked to Doxa. They said we will not allow.

1:03:30Hodinkee Host:You cannot go out to such as we will not disclose that we produce, but you have also no rights. Yeah, it's sideways. I will not help a partner to go on retail. I'm not supporting them. Everyone needs to have his own strategy. but it's a nice to have added business but it's not as substantial by far not as substantial as it was in the earlier days.

1:03:56Jan Edocs:Exactly, exactly. But it produces more watches than docks obviously. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Interesting. So docks is the biggest part of the business. Yes, yes. That's interesting to know. So you talked about that continued growth on the retail side and so you hope to get to 350 points of retail sale in the next five years. What else are your business plans for Docs over the next two to three to five years? Is it about product? Is it about innovation? Is it about how do you keep generating new customers and how do you keep established customers wanting to buy more product?

1:04:41Hodinkee Host:First of all, it's about product. So our ideas, they go into 227, 228. I'm looking already forward for next year. It's very precise what we need to do. It's also to, after five years, to incentivize collaboration of our retailers. More and more, we have also this opportunity to go into local markets with limited editions, which I all the time support with a retailer together, not me as a brand, which is very much like. And then to work close with the retail to make the brand more known. You don't build a brand to a more larger, oh, after five years, this can go decades. It's just some people, and so we're not in phase one, but maybe we're only in phase two or phase five.

1:05:29Hodinkee Host:Be patient. It's still a lot of people discover Doxa.

1:05:35Jan Edocs:Yeah, I mean, it's a sort of legendary brand among the enthusiast community and the sort of Houdinki community. but there's a lot of people who don't know much about the brand and you've got quite a story to tell.

1:05:47Hodinkee Host:No, absolutely. And this has to do with the growth. Once that's why with the retail business, once they touch it, now we're already more, oh, I heard about already, which is already a compliment to us. It wasn't the case two or three years ago. You see, and it's really the quality of distribution Docs has. I'm not mentioning brand names, but on the website, you can see who our retail partners are. And then suddenly now, this can't be a coincidence that these premium retailers choosing to sell Doxa because they carry big much, sometimes a big ego and the responsibility. These retailers, they can't take the brand just to test.

1:06:29Hodinkee Host:On their level, if they say yes and they retail space to a brand, they want to be sure in front of their end consumer that this brand is still around in 10 years because next to Doxa, they sell more expensive watches. And if they would start to disappoint their premium customer with a much higher spending with a watch for 1 ,500, they may take the risk to lose that customer. So they know what they do. Absolutely.

1:06:57Jan Edocs:And is there anything that you think you may have pushed too far or that you've done that you regret in terms of product, that you think may have risked that credibility that the brand has with customers as that entryway at the high-end retail stores? Not really.

1:07:19Hodinkee Host:No one is perfect. That's true. But big mistakes, I think, did not happen. It is just for the community, and the community starts to get different and different. But in the beginning, it was harsher to come up with new models. the people also when we came up with a 39 oh this is too small and all this i said guys i have asia okay i'm not wearing 45 so sometimes but today is much better because the collectors more and more see now the global approach and the business sense now but time by time also this piece with the diamonds people start to understand and now now i get it logical and still they need to make money if they want to grow and and we can be proud and and we left the stage where in the beginning that the hardcore collectors they expected that we stay still in a museum they can talk about what do you want to sell watches and not to have but no one is buying just to clap on your shoulders and just to talk about the history and as a museum brand i can tell you commercially

1:08:24Jan Edocs:you're dead absolutely i mean how did that that smaller size 200 do because i mean i think it's a great watch and it's also a great watch in terms of price point uh as well but absolutely

1:08:37Hodinkee Host:that the general tendons are are also in in other markets that it's downsizing to 41 40 39 right move but we need it but the main and the right moment was also now when we approach you know we go to asia i cannot tell the story with a 45 millimeter watch not it's different there they love the story but there it's even not to adapt you just follow local must-haves and if you think you're as good that you can just push 45 millimeters in that market then great but then you didn't understand how the market runs and what about female customers i mean

1:09:19Jan Edocs:And I mean, you know, that certainly that watch size-wise certainly may appeal more to that audience. I mean, you know, how are you – do you – you have the data. What percentage of your customers are male, your users are male?

1:09:36Hodinkee Host:So, as per the customer base, it's now we start to approach maybe two digits.

1:09:42Jan Edocs:So, you're starting to approach two digits. It's fair. Yeah. I mean, this is – there's brands that have a much lower percentage.

1:09:49Hodinkee Host:uh logical you have uh in certain markets the the sports driven women of course and with the woman it's the one to buy dogs are very clear they buy because of functionality maybe less because of the caution shape watch there's there you have a competition maybe it's less to watch for the evening and when you analyze also that the woman this is now i call this my keyboard ninjas make all the analysis the competition is large it's not only a man is more functional also but if you give to a woman one thousand dollars to spend it starts watch jewelry shoes bags it's a large spectrum and for which moment the ones we sell is a sportive woman and so it's not

1:10:37Jan Edocs:you know targeting that uh that demographic more i mean it's not a high priority but it's nice to have and as the some of the cases get smaller it's certainly yeah but it's it's not the main market we're happy it's lightly growing as we see but uh it's instrumentally uh doxa is

1:11:01Hodinkee Host:not be seen from the women as being the the exclusive watch to go out in a gala dinner in the evening no this is then maybe the the functionality of the watch is less important It's more the glance and the glamour.

1:11:16Jan Edocs:And so, you know, to wrap things up, I mean, you know, what should we be looking for coming from DOXA in the next six months, year or so? Anything you can tell us about?

1:11:29Hodinkee Host:A new interpretation of, which I'm looking very much forward, of history.

1:11:35Jan Edocs:A new interpretation of history. What does it, what might that mean?

1:11:39Hodinkee Host:That means that we reinterpretate in a product history. I see.

1:11:45Jan Edocs:So a historical product to be interpreted and looked at in the U.S. in 2026. Excellent. Looking very forward to that and continuing to watch Doxa and all the exciting things you do. Thank you, Jan Edox, for joining us today.

1:12:07Hodinkee Host:Thank you very much, Andy. And to all the audience of Hodinkee, thank you all the time for your support. And we're very pleased to have this occasion to talk with you.

1:12:21Jan Edocs:And that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinkee.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows? We might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

1:13:06Thank you.